November 17, 2023 • 50 mins
In this, the pronunciation episode, Marshall David Johnson of UK designer department store Fenwick joins Gordon and Ger to talk about the challenges of luxury retail.
Marshall guides you through a world in which luxury brands call the shots over retailers, and styling and managing products for online goes beyond anything mere mortals should attempt.
Dive into the realm of retail opulence and find out how to pronounce 'luxury', 'Ciarán, 'Fenwick' and 'Fraser'.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
This is Functional & Fabulous, the omnichannel podcast where we unbox tales of online retail and digital transformation.
In this episode...
Luuxury is difficult...
No, it's easy. Say after me...
Luxury.
Luuxury...
No, no.
Luxury.
Luuxury.
(00:21):
Luxury.
Luuxury.
Somebody help me...
Luuxury.
Not you.
Luxury.
Thank you, Marshall.
I'm going to stop pronouncing luxury like that now.
But in the case of luuxury, I think...
You're still pronouncing it that way.
This is going to take forever.
In the tier above premium...
Good enough.
What else are we covering in this episode?
I've managed to survive Storm Ciaran, so, you know...
(00:43):
Oh, I think you'll find a Storm Ciarán...
This episode of Functional & Fabulous is brought to you with pride by Studio49, retail ecommerce experts, omnichannel growth consultants and cut-through performance marketing specialists.
Studio49, where your digital retail success is built.
(01:04):
Hello, and you're very welcome to another episode of Functional & Fabulous, where this week we're joined by Marshall David Johnson.
Marshall is currently Digital Trading Manager at Fenwick's in the UK.
He is a senior manager and has over a decade of experience with both the iconic boutique Browns, where he worked for 12 years, and the luxury fashion marketplace Farfetch.
(01:26):
Marshall is used to the unique characteristics of both the bricks and mortar, and the requirements of serious digital innovation, working with global stakeholders and helping them to scale ecommerce business.
Yeah, I don't know.
There's a lot in this.
There's quite a lot in that.
Do I need to keep on going?
I think we just need to say hello.
(01:46):
Marshall, it's great to have you here.
How are you keeping?
Yeah, really well.
I've managed to survive Storm Ciaran, so, you know...
Oh, I think you'll find it's Storm Ciarán...
I was wondering when I was looking at Storm Ciarán, like, battering the UK, did everybody give it the proper, you know, the proper attention?
(02:07):
No, Storm Ciaran is what that would totally have been.
Because in my house it was Storm Ciaran as well.
The weather clobbered us good.
We deserve it.
So, well, glad to hear you're surviving.
We've actually been underwater quite a bit over here as well.
So, we feel the pain.
We had, what was her name?
(02:30):
Storm Betty?
Babet?
Babet, that's it, yeah.
Anyway, enough storms.
Okay.
This is the, it's the luxury episode, and we are delighted to be joined by you today, and to chat through some of the challenges that, and some of the opportunities that sit around retailing luxury.
(02:53):
So, I guess, Marshall, I wonder if you could help us understand at the outset how a luxury store is different to a multi-brand store.
I mean, you've got a little bit, you've obviously got a lot of experience with the multi-, the luxury store side of things.
How you see that as different to the kind of the multi-store or the multi-brand store set up online?
Yeah, I think a big difference with the sort of luxury side of things is the amount of power that the brands have, and even to the point where allowing you to sell them.
(03:23):
So, something that shocked me when I first started working at Browns was that you can't just go to Gucci and say, oh, I want to sell the collection.
Or also that you can't just go and say, I want this dress and those shoes and that bag, and I don't want the rest.
Basically, they decide who they sell to based off of history with working with the brand, or the people working there that, you know, they know.
(03:44):
So if you are a new store and you have kind of influential people from the industry there, that can help your case.
But usually it's done to, you know, people who have worked with them for decades, or centuries in some cases.
And you also tend to buy, you're restricted in what you can buy in terms of quantities.
So you might have, you know, a really hyped product or, like, the bestselling bag, but you're only allowed to buy five.
(04:08):
Or, and alongside that bag, you have to take, you know, a continuity pack, which unfortunately doesn't sell as well, but kind of, you know, more basic clothing sort of items.
So it's a very different business.
I mean, than what I sort of imagined it before I started working there.
And also compared to where I am now, which is premium.
(04:29):
I mean, we have kind of bridge brands, but it is a lot more, you know, at our discretion, what we price items at, what ranges we can get, where we can do lots of swaps.
You can get lots of ATS, which is like stock in the season.
Whereas with luxury, if you have a bestseller, even with one they might have, like you could get more of if you wanted.
(04:51):
Usually there's no stock because they only produced a certain line or a certain amount and it's gone to all stockists or their own stores.
And if it's sold out, it's sold out.
So that kind of active in-season trading with bestsellers is harder in luxury because you don't tend to ever get replens.
But luxury needs to have that air of exclusivity and scarcity, right?
(05:15):
That's what makes it luxurious.
It's not for everybody.
No, exactly.
And that's what they really trade on.
I mean, Celine was so successful for nearly a decade because it was so scarce, like they didn't sell online.
We were allowed to sort of mention on our A-Z page that we had them in the store, but you couldn't have a whiff of sales online.
(05:37):
And that drove people crazy.
You know, that's a total exclusivity, scarcity case right there.
You spent a lot of time at Browns Fashion.
The fashion industry over the last decade has really undergone some huge changes, particularly with luxury brands adopting streetwear and adopting those kind of more accessible styles.
(06:04):
And a brand or a retailer like Browns, that has been around so long and had such a distinctive customer proposition in that more exclusive space,
how did that kind of change over the time that you were there?
And what did that mean for you as somebody leading ecommerce?
(06:29):
Yeah, that was a really interesting one because when I started it, we had a very much more classic older customer who bought Alaïa dresses, or dresses for events and high heels, Louis Vuittons and fine jewellery.
But then we started to sell in our young designers store, Browns Focus, these Brian Lichtenberg hoodies from LA.
(06:51):
And they sold out immediately.
And because it's more of a contemporary price point product, you get ATS.
So we got new stock in and sold out again.
So then we ended up building out a bigger streetwear range.
And at that point, they did sit into different site areas, the kind of classic Browns high fashion and then the streetwear.
And around the time that Browns was acquired by Farfetch and Holli Rogers came in as our new CEO from Net-a-Porter, it was that time right when fashion was changing, with this sort of high-low mix of people wearing trainers with their Valentino dresses.
(07:29):
And her sort of vision that we implemented was let's mix it all together, with the exception of some brands that didn't want to be mixed that way, like Alaïa.
But for instance, with brands like Balenciaga, that was their aesthetic, was streetwear.
So it kind of worked really well that we could just blend it.
And that was sort of our USP in the market that we were sort of the first people to do that in the multi-brand luxury fashion ecommerce space.
(07:57):
And we attracted a lot of younger customers for that sort of irreverence.
And it worked really well because it also solved the problem of like, oh, how are we going to...
Before we had great automated merchandising where you could blend based off of brand adjacencies, you had to do it all manually.
And with the way deliveries come in as well, you had to sort of curate your edits quite tricky.
(08:20):
Like it's difficult to curate and edit if you only had some brands from classic, some brands from street.
This way you could bring them together for outfits and for listings pages.
So it worked really well, actually.
But it was a big change from when I started when luxury was much more buttoned-up, I guess.
When you first started, fashion's undergoing this seismic change over...
(08:45):
And particularly luxury fashion is undergoing this seismic change over the last 10 years.
But also technology is moving underneath our feet at the same time.
And you touched on, like, merchandising there.
So can you talk us through a bit about how merchandising tools have evolved over that time and the kind of things that you were using?
(09:11):
Yeah, so when I first started at Browns, we had a bespoke platform that had the merchandising was done off a numbered grid system.
So if you would assign an index number to every product, the higher number would always go to the top of the page.
And you also, of course, only would update every 15 minutes.
So I literally would make a grid on a piece of paper beside my computer with my numbers and a note of what product that was, like green Gucci jacket, black Acne trousers, and then do my merchandising that way.
(09:43):
I actually had a quite clever way of then, when they got kicked out of new in and went into listings, I assigned every colour a prefix number.
So black was 10.
Then I think I did blue is nine.
And so then when you go to hit listings pages, every listings page for like coats or would just go from black to blue to green to yellow.
(10:07):
So colour story, literally painting by numbers.
Yeah, literally.
And then if I ran out of, I think I had, like, seven digits, then I had to start all over from scratch.
I think I made an intern do the renumbering project at one point.
I feel for that intern.
Yeah.
Oh, there was some real abuse of interns back then when rather than use like a VLOOKUP and say, oh, actually, can you just go through this sheet?
(10:34):
And, you know, just copy this into that.
Yeah, that'd be great.
No, but then kind of we got our own drag-and-drop kind of merchandising, which is quite standard now for manual merchandising.
But even it was only, I think, until about 2017 that we started actually doing algorithms.
I think manual merchandising still has a big part to play in luxury because you are selling this sort of aspirational vision.
(11:01):
So you always, manual merchandise top of pages, but then you also have trade actions you want to surface and pin to the top.
But it was then after that bringing in a blend that you could choose and make a cocktail out of, like, how I want to weight bestsellers versus time on site versus recently viewed, customer also viewed...
And then that also leads into the recommendations you see on, like, product pages, which are now completely controlled by algorithms normally.
(11:28):
But I mean, we didn't even have those.
When I first started, it was just, we just shopped the look, which is an interesting one because that's always a big fashion focal point, shop the look.
And when, since we were so keen on our styling at Browns, we always had as a big priority and it was very visible on the product page.
But then the kind of tech wisdom was that, oh, customers also bought or viewed is more powerful in terms of sales.
(11:56):
That's what should be you doing.
And also you should be doing that because it's more scalable.
Like, manually creating these outfits in the system is a bad business practice.
So we actually ran an A-B test of replacing that with, shop the look with a recommended instead and it actually didn't perform as well.
Having, so yeah, our customers particularly really wanted to see that outfit and discover new products that we had sort of curated for them.
(12:22):
Whereas it still was valuable that we had recommended running on the algorithm below the kind of outfit section because yeah, there are customers who will, you know, use that algorithm as well.
But it was interesting learning that the kind of tech wisdom wasn't necessarily correct.
It was worth doing the manual work to put the outfit in there.
(12:43):
It didn't necessarily meet the styling and the retail wisdom.
And I suppose that, would that start in production?
So the buyer has been presented with their limited assortment from the luxury brand.
And that goes into a production process to be styled and photographed.
(13:08):
And would that shop the look then need to carry right the way through from the product imagery into the way that the site was merchandised?
Was that part of your...
Yeah, so we actually assigned it with the styling assistants in the studio.
So they would do it into the PIM basically as they were shooting the look.
And then that way it carried through the whole way.
(13:29):
So it was time-consuming on that side of things.
Once it was in, then it was in.
And did that change over time?
So once Farfetch made that acquisition, was more technology brought in to facilitate that or was it still a pretty manual job?
It stayed manual the whole time.
I mean, there was lots of efficiencies that came in with Farfetch and
(13:53):
we also added size and fit assistance in the studio and we ended up combining the roles.
So, you know, they would enter in the outfit while also measuring the product, checking the fit with the model, seeing if it was true to size.
But yeah, the nature of that is kind of that it always was fairly manual.
I mean, they added more scanning technology, I think.
(14:14):
They used a barcode scanner.
Whereas I think in the past we would quite often do it semi-manually, like find the product on the website, intern copy and paste the link, that type of thing.
And I think that doesn't sound very scalable.
And I think for anyone listening, can you give us a bit of context about, like, size?
(14:38):
So are we talking a couple of hundred?
Are we talking a couple of thousand SKUs?
Like, what kind of size business are we talking about here on, like, a seasonal basis?
So Browns, when we were bought by Farfetch, was about 12,000 SKUs to like styles, unique styles a year.
(14:59):
So about six a season.
And then we moved over, it was a long time, over five years.
We grew to 60,000 SKUs per year.
And then the studio team also at the peak was about a hundred in production across logistics, styling, assistants.
So fit assistants, shop look assistants, style assistants, photography, retouch.
(15:25):
Wow, yeah.
So it was a massive team.
But then actually with that many products, you're shooting pretty much flat out all day, every day.
A hundred sounds like a lot, but if it's over 60,000 styles in a year, that's 30,000 in a season.
That's a lot of productivity out of each one of those hundred people, right?
(15:47):
At peak, we would shoot weekends and do shifts as well.
So you had, like, one that started at 6am, finished at 2pm, and then somebody from 2pm to 10pm, basically, just to get the maximum.
That's pretty flat out.
And the amount of data that you were capturing at the same time, you know, when you're actually measuring the garments, checking the fit size, recording all of that information, there was actually a pretty substantial production process that you had there.
(16:17):
It was quite big because with luxury and lots of demands from the brands, that, you know, the finished product looks a certain way.
So particularly with styling, even if we were going to mix the high-low, it obviously had to look really good because if you mix high-low and it looks bad, then you're really in trouble with the brand.
(16:38):
So if you're going to...
So that was our one kind of problem with that strategy was that you had to really pull it off.
Whereas if you do head to toe, it's easier to make it look good because that's how the brand designed it.
And, you know, you can kind of just easily put it together, shoot it and move on.
So that's why it was such a big team and a big support team of kind of managers at, like, styling and art direction level to kind of keep the team on point for that type of thing.
(17:06):
But yeah, with the size and fit, actually, we did another pilot, which it's a shame it didn't...
I mean, a lot of, like Mr. Porter in that group, basically, they were doing it for a while, which we did an A-B test of it as well, where we measured every size that we received in our DC.
So then you'd have a table on the product page that would pop up and size guide that said as small as these measurements, a medium as these measurements, large as these measurements.
(17:34):
And that was also, like, a team of 12 doing that across the catalogue.
We did see positive conversion rate and lower return rate, but for the cost of running that and the kind of systems demands, it didn't really work for us at the time to have it more than a pilot scheme.
But that, you know, it is amazing data to have.
(17:58):
How long did you run that pilot scheme for?
Six months.
Was it mainly, like, female fashion or was it across all of...?
It was across both men's and women's.
We did it across the whole catalogue while we were running the scheme.
And what sort of a reduction did you see in the returns rate?
I mean, obviously, there's a lot of returns.
(18:18):
You know, there's other things that factor into returns rate.
But we did see, you know, it dropped from around 30 to 25.
But we were doing some other activations around that as well.
Like, I think the fit assistance in the studio also helped to say if it was true to size or not.
Yeah.
And out of all of the things that you were doing, did you hold on to certain practices?
(18:40):
So we held on to the fit assistance in the studio to kind of gather the true to size nature and to measure the shooting size.
So you had some scale of at least what one size was.
And then we managed to maintain after the pilot, like returns rate, you know, kind of, it varied depending on the season, but, like, if it didn't mark down or not.
(19:03):
But it was like around 25, 27.
So we never hit 30 again.
So it was an improvement.
Yeah.
You said that the conversion rate was improved as well.
How did you surface the sizing information?
Did you do something to, you know, to increase the visibility and thereby give additional assurance to people that the sizing was correct?
Like, how did you achieve that?
(19:24):
Why did the conversion rate increase, do you think?
So we did have a size and fit section on the PDP, but then we also had the pop-up and we actually did highlight, we made some UX improvements to the pop-up CTA that I think helped with that.
And then when you hit into that, you got the grid with measurements.
Yeah.
(19:45):
It's a massive overhead, though.
And I think price points, luxury has a better chance of making something like that work than certainly a fast-fashion brand that's much, much lower.
I mean, if you're a mono-brand, you should have the information anyway.
So I think it's definitely something that is very helpful.
(20:07):
I mean, that's the big, you know, not to get into that too much, but that's the sort of Holy Grail that every tech company is chasing is the digital size and fit solution.
Yeah.
It's not the first time it's actually come up in conversation.
Like, if we rewind back to one of our earlier podcast episodes, I think Matt Brown was talking about his frustration with size and fit driving returns online.
(20:35):
And I'd say, like, particularly in luxury, it must be quite challenging because that price point is so much higher.
I think part of Matt's point as well was around the customer experience.
It was that whole idea of this company knows my fit and will be recommending product that fits me and I have that assurance.
(20:59):
And that is, he referred to it like it's a very, very pleasant experience of having an actual tailor who has measured you and you know that everything that you're going to be presented with will fit you.
And, you know, so you know that you have less of that concern about, okay, I have yet to try this on.
Will I end up having to return?
All of that kind of thing.
Yeah, there's some of that, but that leans into that in-store experience.
(21:23):
And I know one of the things that Farfetch started to do post the acquisition of Browns was start to bring some of that kind of technology and some of that into store.
And there would have been quite a bit of innovation in that space.
One of the things I'd be keen to understand is how did that impact your online business?
(21:48):
Did it work well?
Did it work in tandem?
What were kind of the impacts there, Marshall?
Yes, it definitely did positively impact the online business, especially because we did have quite a big cohort of customers who were, you know, not necessarily based in the UK, but then they would like, they shopped through their personal shopper in the store.
(22:14):
So they could then use the Store of the Future app to kind of place their orders through their assistant, through their shopper, but it would come through as a web sale.
We ended up separating it out to have like a separate department, which we called The Club, which was for those customers.
But it did generate more sales because also they got the assurance because they could communicate with their stylist while they were shopping online.
(22:41):
I think that was a great use case of that.
And that was all part of the Store of the Future programme?
Yeah, exactly.
What other kinds of things were in that?
I mean, most, it was a lot more like magic mirrors.
So, you know, if you're looking in the fitting room, you have suggested more of the shopper look kind of idea.
And you could then tap, oh, these shoes, and then the sales assistant gets the notification through the app, bring the shoes to fitting room five.
(23:09):
And then also if they had the app, when they're coming into store, location services would know they're about to arrive.
They could have pre-selected items they want to see.
Also, the sales assistant has their whole history of shopping.
So it's a better way of serving them and connecting the online, offline customer.
(23:30):
There's a lot of talk about whether or not retailers should develop an app for their business.
And often the apps themselves would probably be not much more advanced than the website, except that the customer is always logged in.
What you're talking about, there's a heap of additional functionality in that sort of an app.
(23:56):
What's your take on that, Marshall?
Do you think, is it worth developing an app for your retail business if it's only slightly better than the website?
Or do you feel like you would need to have all of those additional pieces of functionality, like location awareness, I'm coming in store, I'm already in store, I'm in the changing room, you know, all of that sort of thing.
(24:17):
I mean, obviously you can see the benefit of all of those.
That makes it clear that an app would be useful, but yeah...
I think the biggest benefit of having an app is for loyalty and rewarding loyalty.
Whereas the Farfetch one, because they were already so advanced in what they were doing, and this was a big showcase moment, they probably took it further than most businesses would need to.
(24:42):
And I think from, and that's, you know, like I'm now at Fenwick and we don't have an app, but I think there's...
That was going to be my next question.
At Fenwick, would you actually get an app in that case?
Yeah, I think there's scope down the line, but I think that what it would be for would be, because you have to think with an app, you basically opened up a direct portal to people's pockets where you can ping them notifications about products.
(25:09):
But I mean, you need to be quite careful you're not spamming them.
So it is, you know, things that they're interested in.
So you do need to link up.
I think that's the big power is you're linking up that purchase history and viewing his browsing history with promotions or products you might have in.
And I think, you know, discount or discounts or perks for app customers.
(25:29):
I mean, to use Waitrose as an example, I'm a sucker for that coffee.
So that's why I've got my Waitrose card and I literally will go out of my way, like, oh, I need groceries.
Let's swing around Waitrose at about 2pm so I can get the stuff for dinner and my coffee.
And I think that's where, because Fenwick is, we have food, we have restaurants in the stores.
(25:52):
I feel like that's where we could really leverage it.
And out of curiosity, because you mentioned loyalty and I was at a conference last week and there was a lot of discussion around loyalty for luxury brands.
A number of years ago, a lot of luxury brands had the sense that loyalty was a little bit naff and wasn't really, yeah, it wasn't applicable in their business for their customer.
(26:14):
And I think that they're coming around a little bit.
And now there's this sense of we're not talking about loyalty as much as we're talking about community.
But what do you think about that?
What's your take on loyalty community?
Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't say it's naff.
I think also with brands, this is multi-brand.
The thing with loyalty as in the kind of London multi-brand luxury fashion market, there's a lot of competition.
(26:40):
So you almost have to offer something.
And with our loyalty, it wasn't so much like, you know, it wasn't a free coffee.
I mean, it was free coffee.
You came in, had your appointment, but we did it more around the services you received exclusive in...
I mean, that's what most luxury brands do now for loyalty.
It's, you know, invites to fabulous dinners or talks or, I mean, big brands will send people to fashion shows.
(27:04):
And when Louis Vuitton is doing the resort in Palm Springs, they fly people out who are big clients.
I mean, that's the kind of future.
That does sound like a gig that I would enjoy.
Exactly.
We might even do it for free.
A clienteling gig.
Brilliant.
So Fenwick's a little bit different to Browns...
(27:26):
Yeah, a bit different.
But equally as interesting in terms of product catalogue breadth and the production overhead.
But there must be some key differences in things like product access and that kind of thing?
Yeah, I mean, what I found, I mean, I'm five weeks in, so I don't know everything about the business yet.
(27:49):
But I do find the ways of working, I think also just the nature of the business, because Fenwick is a national chain of department stores.
We've got nine in the UK.
It is a big account for big beauty brands.
Whereas at Browns, we sold beauty, but much more in ASOP and some really cult skincare quantities.
(28:10):
Whereas at Fenwick, and because the website's very visible for these beauty brands, and it's a big account, they want my sort of role to basically work directly with them on assortment, go to their press days, go to their strategy sessions.
And even to determine what's selling, how can we adapt the range and get different purchases or promotions.
(28:33):
And the fashion brands also work that way.
I mean, they're more run, we have a lot more access to swap out.
So we have regular meetings with each of the brands.
So it's almost more the ecommerce sort of digital trading manager role is almost more of a buying role in terms of how I work with the brands than I did at Browns.
(28:55):
Because at Browns, the buyers were the buyers and they worked with the brands and then they fed down to us mere mortals.
Yeah.
And now I'm the, you know, I've got a seat at the table and they want to know what's working, how can we drive sales?
Do the buyers see that, as like, okay, hey, we're closing the loop and we're getting data back?
Or do they see it as the tail wagging the dog?
(29:18):
Like, you mean the buyers at Browns, for instance?
Yeah well, Fenwick I was thinking, but...
Yeah, Fenwick, do the buyers welcome this more than, I can imagine that they don't at Browns, but tell us?
Oh, no, I know.
I think, yeah, the way luxury buying is set up, I think is very siloed in that sense.
(29:38):
And there's a whole hierarchy within buying that, you know, you do your time to progress to the next level.
So you can finally, you know, be Miranda Priestly at Paris Fashion Week.
I mean, Fenwick, I think, because the mix of concessions and own-bought is also a lot heavier on concession.
And concessions are set up to work more directly with operational people like e-com rather than through buying.
(30:06):
I mean, you have a concession sort of manager, but so the buyers at Fenwick are actually, yeah, they're quite open to this way of working.
I mean it's the way they kind of always work.
So I think they're glad to get the access to the data and it's a bit more of an efficient way of working just going directly.
Whereas in the past, you know, Browns buyers would ask for this kind of data if they had a certain appointment that had requested it, but they would tend to source most of the data out of the merchandising team rather than through e-com.
(30:36):
So they would come to e-com with maybe some, you know, web stats if they wanted those, but sales-wise, they went more through merchandising.
Whereas the way Fenwick is set up, I have a sort of digital merchandising team that has access to all the data that they're after, that we give the brands through our own working with them.
(31:00):
Very good.
We're kind of approaching time to wrap up, but I do have a question.
We talked a little bit about omnichannel, touched on it with the app for Browns and, you know, Gordon and I talk quite regularly about how it is the job of the merchant or the retailer to ensure that each of the touchpoints for the customer are joined up in a kind of a sensible way that it feels frictionless, that it feels like one single experience.
(31:28):
And I know that in some cases, some luxury brands might feel, well, actually, you know, we really want our customer to come in-store.
They have to feel, you know, have the experience, have the welcome and omnichannel isn't for us and that sort of thing.
And I was curious to know for the Browns customer, did they enjoy the omnichannel experience?
(31:49):
Did they use it?
Maybe they had no opinion on it because it was so frictionless that they just felt that this was the experience, you know?
Well, I think they enjoyed it, but I think it's one of those things where you notice it more when it's not there.
And because we had sort of, and a lot of the competition in London offers that type of experience or, you know, coming from Hong Kong, they also would be used to it.
(32:14):
So for that kind of Browns customer we had that was very tech savvy, they, I think, expected it.
So it was almost like they would have really noticed if it wasn't there rather than really noticing that it was there.
Does that make sense?
Brilliant.
One last question for me as we wrap up.
(32:35):
Recently joined Fenwick, what are your big priorities in terms of, like, the coming 12 months?
What's on your hit list of things that we'd like to do that you can share with us?
Yeah, well, I think maybe because I grew up in, you know, the 90s, I still have such a, I think it's a shame what's happening to department stores, I think.
(33:01):
And I think it's exciting that there is an opportunity now to, you know, Fenwick is doing well, actually, in the kind of grand scheme of department stores, but it's an exciting opportunity to kind of how does a department store function in, you know, the 2020s.
And I think what I've noticed is that we're very siloed in terms of our online experience with the categories, like beauty is its own landing page, women's its own landing page, and home is its own landing page.
(33:28):
I really want to create this sort of lifestyle brand that, because why would people shop with us if it's not to come for a one-stop shop?
Because yeah, the benefit, the USP should be that we sell, you know, nice home accessories and cool clothing brands and your kids' wear and things for the dinner party you're having.
(33:50):
And I think that's where we need to become more of this lifestyle destination through the online journey and the online merchandising and the online assortment as well.
So I think that's what's exciting about it is to kind of create this journey and this destination.
That is brilliant and we wish you the absolute best of luck.
(34:10):
Although we don't think that you'll need the luck to do it because you sound like you've got a very clear vision.
Well, I'll take it if I can get it.
Great.
Thanks so much, Marshall.
We'll talk to you again soon.
Take care.
Thank you both.
Thank you.
What did we learn?
We learned that luxury is difficult.
(34:31):
Luxury, yeah.
It sounds very difficult.
It sounds really challenging, doesn't it?
It's not like myth-busting luxury is what I learned lots about today.
I think one of the interesting things, I recall a Black Friday that I would prefer not to recall where we had an issue with the promotion for a particular product that was very much in demand.
(34:55):
A fine product, you know, in the realm of luxury.
A lot of people wanted it and there was kind of a last-minute discount was put on the product which caused problems for the website when it was re-indexing the pricing, et cetera.
And there was quite a bit of marketing spend behind the generation of anticipation around this product.
And when the product was actually sold, it sold out in seconds flat.
(35:20):
And then there was a whole amount of post, you know, chatter on socials about, oh my God, they didn't have it anyway.
Like, I mean, I couldn't get it.
Did you get it?
Nobody got it.
You know, did they really have it for sale at that price, et cetera, et cetera.
And what happened was, it turned out that after all of the effort and work and everything else, they only had 20 of the items actually in stock.
(35:40):
So they had 20 units.
And, you know, there was a similar, there was a similar point there.
How Balenciaga SSS of them?
Yeah, like, I mean, you know, you have even PlayStation 5 a couple of years ago, which brought down websites across the world.
In some cases, the websites only had a couple, you know, had tens of them to sell.
I remember one particular site had like four or five hours of disruption because people just kept on hitting the site to try and get this product.
(36:07):
Anyway, I guess my point is you spend an awful lot of time, there's an awful lot of marketing, there's an awful lot of effort goes into it.
Is it all worth it?
Is it worth it?
Yeah.
I think we learned that in the case of luuxury, I'm going to stop pronouncing luxury like that now, but in the case of luuxury, I think...
You're still pronouncing it that way...
Of course I am.
(36:28):
Try it again, try it again.
Luuxury...
Luxury, luxury.
Luxury.
Yes, perfect.
So in the case of selling luxury... I'm so self-conscious of that now.
I can't not say it...
High-quality premium goods...
Well, in the tier above premium... See? I got away with it.
(36:54):
I think we learned some really interesting things around the importance of storytelling.
There's a theme of how that investment that was made in terms of production, in terms of shop the look, outperformed an algorithm.
And then I think, okay, well that's...
(37:15):
Is that really surprising?
Well, it shouldn't be because that's what we tell everybody that they should be doing.
So I'm just delighted to get that affirmation.
What was interesting was the sales declined if they took the shop the look off of the PDP, but it was better to have both shop the look and the algorithm in there.
Because people shop in different ways.
Yeah, exactly.
They want different things at different times.
(37:36):
But we've often had that conversation.
Is it worthwhile actually curating the goods, proposing an outfit or proposing a shop to look?
I mean, of course it is.
That's what people...
That's how you're going to distinguish yourself as a retailer.
People go to your particular store because they know how you're going to present things and they want to see things presented that way to them so that they know what they're supposed to buy.
(37:58):
Because most people don't have the same taste that the buyers have.
I think to be able to inspire customers to be able to put a story together, but particularly for a brand, if you think like Browns, multi-brand, tier above premium retailer, that's their role.
That's the buyer's role is to pull these stories together and inspire customers.
(38:23):
I thought it was very interesting the idea that some of their customers' personal shoppers would arrive in store with the app.
Oh, I love that.
I just thought, how fantastic.
And then this idea of video calling your customer that's far away whilst you're pulling together a collection.
Oh, I'd yearn for that level of service.
(38:44):
What I thought was quite interesting because we have been asked and I asked a question on the call.
We've been asked a couple of times to build an app, and often we're pointed at these kind of website-to-app conversion services.
And the app that Farfetch have put together for Browns, the Store of the Future, I mean, there's phenomenal technology in that and that is not the kind of app that we're being asked to build.
(39:11):
So I guess Marshall's answer was, well, if you can bring loyalty into the mix there, then it's going to be worthwhile.
Do you know whose app's brilliant, and it's recent, and they are also in that luxury space?
Brown Thomas, absolute, like, cracking upgrade to the app recently.
Oh yeah, that was a couple of months ago.
(39:32):
That was a couple of months ago.
And of course, same across Arnotts.
Yeah.
As well as being able to shop it, it's got this fully integrated loyalty now and it just works brilliantly. And I'm a bit of a sucker for bed linen...
Yeah.
I actually had quite a lot of points, apparently.
Apparently, on your bed linen?
That I never knew about, as I was scrolling through the app and my recommendations were popping up.
(39:57):
But really nicely integrated loyalty platform.
They've done a super job.
It works really, it's really slick.
That's a great example of taking core app functionality.
They might as well just have your website works just as well on a mobile, but taking that and then embedding something in there that's useful.
And of course, when you're in Brown Thomas, you can never find your loyalty card.
(40:20):
Yeah, of course, yeah, I have...
And that's like, bringing that down to earth with a bump.
Same in Tesco.
Why have you got the Tesco app?
Because it's got my club card on it.
And that's a loyalty application as well.
Yeah, it was an interesting point because it does seem that even with all of that tech, I am now in the store.
(40:42):
Bring me my clothing.
Bring me my things.
Yeah, even with all of that, the point that he made out or the point that he got to was the loyalty piece.
And it is an interesting area.
I think for 2024, it's going to be a theme.
It has been a theme, but I think it'll be more of something that people focus on.
(41:03):
And it's beyond loyalty.
It's nearly the kind of community, not to get soppy about it, but it's the idea of how do we build the community?
Because these are not just people that we are going to reward for being loyal, but they're also people who are actual advocates for us.
They're part of our community.
We embrace them to maybe give us feedback.
We get their feedback and see what we can change, I think is the super important bit.
(41:27):
Because it is a tier above loyalty.
A tier above loyalty.
I love it.
Now, on to Fenwick's...
Fen-wick's for everybody in Ireland...
Fen-wick's, as Ger has been pronouncing it...
I feel very fancy when I say Fenwick's.
Fenwick's is obviously a brand, a retailer dear to my heart.
(41:49):
It's a department store I have always loved.
And it's interesting to see or to hear about the take on what is that role of the modern department store.
So you've got your kind of hyper-luxury department stores, your Selfridges and your Harrods.
(42:09):
Fenwick's is premium.
It's an attainable place.
But actually hearing the take that we can stitch those lifestyle stories together, it's important to get the assortment right.
But if the assortment's right, how do we bring those stories together online so that you can do all of those things as a one-stop shop?
(42:31):
And yeah, what I really liked was this...
It was just before the call when we were just chatting as we were kind of getting set up.
And he mentioned, Marshall mentioned how Fenwick's was cool in Edwardian times.
And it was cool in the 60s.
And I can imagine that, you know, where, where there's kind of a, like a cool cycle of, you know, a cycle of coolness...
(42:54):
Well, it's the big question is, right?
One of the things I'm thinking is, like, will department stores come back?
So if you think, right, if you think of House of Fraser, which is often pronounced House of Frasier, which drives me bananas. But if you think about...
Okay, this is the pronunciation episode obviously. House of Frasier, Fen-wick's and luuxury...
(43:14):
Luuxury.
But if you think about, like, House of Fraser just before its, its demise, and then you've of course got the demise of Debenhams.
So the general school of thought is that actually the department store is on the way out because we've got infinite choice at our fingertips, the fingertips of desire.
(43:38):
Thanks, Dean.
Stole the Deanism.
That the department store be on the way out.
But actually, there's a bit of a depart...
I think there's going to be a bit of a department store renaissance.
I think that Fraser's Group are doing a good job of the restoration of the Fraser's department stores that they're investing in.
(44:02):
We're seeing, like, Brown Thomas on our own shores, fabulous.
Selfridges, fabulous.
Harrods, fabulous.
Fenwick's doing really well.
So is there a role for, for the department store to do that curation job?
Yeah, this is a broader retail question.
I don't even know if it's an ecommerce question, but to, to do that curation job and to present that one-stop shop in a way that's really desirable with great experience.
(44:31):
House of Fraser was just underinvested.
Yeah.
Like it was not a nice experience. But if you go into, like my recent encounter with House of Fraser's in, in Belfast in Victoria Square, the refitting there's stunning.
Yeah, yeah.
Yes, I think the answer to your question feels like yes.
Let's say the presentation of the lifestyle, not just, you know, it's not here's the look.
(44:57):
It's here's the lifestyle.
On a general level, this is how your home... this is your homeware lifestyle proposition.
This is your ladieswear.
This is how your kids are going to be dressed.
And there's, there's, you're broadening it across a range.
And maybe, maybe this is unfair.
And I'm not an expert in the whole, you know, downfall of the department stores, but it certainly felt like the department store was where you got a broad range of things cheaply, as opposed to a broad range of things that, that, that were aspirationally fitting into your, what you would like...
(45:29):
Get off that promotional cycle.
Yeah.
Get off like Debenhams on the Blue Cross sale, but like get away from the promotional cycle and get into that aspirational cycle.
Yeah.
Stuff that people actually want and get excited about and are prepared to make that investment in.
And if you create that, then, then surely that's what's going to excite people back into the store...
(45:51):
Oh, I can't wait to see what's in this season at X department store.
I think there's still an opportunity.
I mean, it doesn't have to all be investment pieces.
You know, I think there's still an opportunity that's at the department store level.
You know, you might, you might come in to look at an eveningwear, like something for an event, and you might leave with, you know, some, some clothing for the kids, you know.
(46:12):
Well, not all beauty needs to be directional.
Right.
You've got to explain that to me.
What do you mean?
So, right...
Okay, so you think about the beauty department in the beauty hall and that's, like, potentially, like, thousands, tens of thousands of SKUs, or a really, really edited selection of very, very premium price point options.
(46:37):
Yeah.
And actually for the department store shopper, then isn't it about actually I need to be able to get everything.
I don't need €200 moisturiser today.
Well, maybe I do need €200 moisturiser...
Yeah.
But you know what?
I also need the essentials, but I need the essentials to be, like, nice.
(47:01):
And it doesn't have to be directional.
So it'll be interesting to see where that kind of mid-tier department store lands...
Because there is, yeah, because when you have the luxury and you have the, you know, the premium, there is the tier below the premium, which is still an area that isn't, doesn't have to be cheap or, you know, you still have a requirement to buy things that are, you know, sometimes a little bit of an investment or a treat, but they're not yet in the luxury sphere...
(47:32):
Or they're not in that... there is a pyramid.
Oh, God, there has to be a pyramid.
Of course, there's a pyramid.
And at the pyramid, at the pinnacle, you have...
Is it a triangle or a pyramid?
It's a triangle.
It's the triangle of luxury.
And then you have your, at the pinnacle you have luxury, and then you have premium, and then you have your mid-market product.
(47:54):
And then you have your tier of entry level or, or more budget friendly product.
And I think there's, there's a lot of blurring between kind of mid-market and premium, and then premium and luxury.
It'll be interesting to see how the department store thing plays out.
But I think the role of ecommerce and omnichannel managers and leaders within that space is not... As Marshall says,
(48:21):
and I think it's brilliant that he is getting involved in that buying cycle, is to actually use the data that's being generated.
Build those feedback loops in and actually shape the direction of, of the experience and that experience must be carried through online and in-store and focus on editing and storytelling.
(48:44):
Because it has to be the case that as well that the ecommerce platform must be the leading edge of what's happening out there.
You know, if you're thinking about where you're looking for where, you know, the stone in the pool with the ripple effect.
I mean, some of the stores are going to be the very end or the very external ripple and presumably at this stage, the ecommerce must be where you really spot the trends as they happen and as the, you know, as people's behaviours and attitudes are changing to the fashion that they're buying.
(49:19):
So it makes a whole heap of sense.
And it's interesting to see that now in Marshall's role that that's where he is, that's where they're at and they're looking for that kind of feedback.
I can't wait to see what they do.
Yeah, I'm looking forward to it.
Gordon, it's been a pleasure again, as always.
It's been luuxury.
And thanks very much to all our listeners, and we'll speak to you all soon.
(49:39):
You've been listening to Functional & Fabulous with Ger Keohane and Gordon Newman.
If you'd like to know more about the podcast, or about Studio 49 and Omnichannel Stories, please go to functionalandfabulous.ie. Our sound engineer was Elaine Smith, and the show was produced by Roger Overall.
This is Functional & Fabulous, the omnichannel podcast where we unbox tales of online retail and digital transformation.
In this episode...
Luuxury is difficult...
No, it's easy. Say after me...
Luxury.
Luuxury...
No, no.
Luxury.
Luuxury.
(00:21):
Luxury.
Luuxury.
Somebody help me...
Luuxury.
Not you.
Luxury.
Thank you, Marshall.
I'm going to stop pronouncing luxury like that now.
But in the case of luuxury, I think...
You're still pronouncing it that way.
This is going to take forever.
In the tier above premium...
Good enough.
What else are we covering in this episode?
I've managed to survive Storm Ciaran, so, you know...
(00:43):
Oh, I think you'll find a Storm Ciarán...
This episode of Functional & Fabulous is brought to you with pride by Studio49, retail ecommerce experts, omnichannel growth consultants and cut-through performance marketing specialists.
Studio49, where your digital retail success is built.
(01:04):
Hello, and you're very welcome to another episode of Functional & Fabulous, where this week we're joined by Marshall David Johnson.
Marshall is currently Digital Trading Manager at Fenwick's in the UK.
He is a senior manager and has over a decade of experience with both the iconic boutique Browns, where he worked for 12 years, and the luxury fashion marketplace Farfetch.
(01:26):
Marshall is used to the unique characteristics of both the bricks and mortar, and the requirements of serious digital innovation, working with global stakeholders and helping them to scale ecommerce business.
Yeah, I don't know.
There's a lot in this.
There's quite a lot in that.
Do I need to keep on going?
I think we just need to say hello.
(01:46):
Marshall, it's great to have you here.
How are you keeping?
Yeah, really well.
I've managed to survive Storm Ciaran, so, you know...
Oh, I think you'll find it's Storm Ciarán...
I was wondering when I was looking at Storm Ciarán, like, battering the UK, did everybody give it the proper, you know, the proper attention?
(02:07):
No, Storm Ciaran is what that would totally have been.
Because in my house it was Storm Ciaran as well.
The weather clobbered us good.
We deserve it.
So, well, glad to hear you're surviving.
We've actually been underwater quite a bit over here as well.
So, we feel the pain.
We had, what was her name?
(02:30):
Storm Betty?
Babet?
Babet, that's it, yeah.
Anyway, enough storms.
Okay.
This is the, it's the luxury episode, and we are delighted to be joined by you today, and to chat through some of the challenges that, and some of the opportunities that sit around retailing luxury.
(02:53):
So, I guess, Marshall, I wonder if you could help us understand at the outset how a luxury store is different to a multi-brand store.
I mean, you've got a little bit, you've obviously got a lot of experience with the multi-, the luxury store side of things.
How you see that as different to the kind of the multi-store or the multi-brand store set up online?
Yeah, I think a big difference with the sort of luxury side of things is the amount of power that the brands have, and even to the point where allowing you to sell them.
(03:23):
So, something that shocked me when I first started working at Browns was that you can't just go to Gucci and say, oh, I want to sell the collection.
Or also that you can't just go and say, I want this dress and those shoes and that bag, and I don't want the rest.
Basically, they decide who they sell to based off of history with working with the brand, or the people working there that, you know, they know.
(03:44):
So if you are a new store and you have kind of influential people from the industry there, that can help your case.
But usually it's done to, you know, people who have worked with them for decades, or centuries in some cases.
And you also tend to buy, you're restricted in what you can buy in terms of quantities.
So you might have, you know, a really hyped product or, like, the bestselling bag, but you're only allowed to buy five.
(04:08):
Or, and alongside that bag, you have to take, you know, a continuity pack, which unfortunately doesn't sell as well, but kind of, you know, more basic clothing sort of items.
So it's a very different business.
I mean, than what I sort of imagined it before I started working there.
And also compared to where I am now, which is premium.
(04:29):
I mean, we have kind of bridge brands, but it is a lot more, you know, at our discretion, what we price items at, what ranges we can get, where we can do lots of swaps.
You can get lots of ATS, which is like stock in the season.
Whereas with luxury, if you have a bestseller, even with one they might have, like you could get more of if you wanted.
(04:51):
Usually there's no stock because they only produced a certain line or a certain amount and it's gone to all stockists or their own stores.
And if it's sold out, it's sold out.
So that kind of active in-season trading with bestsellers is harder in luxury because you don't tend to ever get replens.
But luxury needs to have that air of exclusivity and scarcity, right?
(05:15):
That's what makes it luxurious.
It's not for everybody.
No, exactly.
And that's what they really trade on.
I mean, Celine was so successful for nearly a decade because it was so scarce, like they didn't sell online.
We were allowed to sort of mention on our A-Z page that we had them in the store, but you couldn't have a whiff of sales online.
(05:37):
And that drove people crazy.
You know, that's a total exclusivity, scarcity case right there.
You spent a lot of time at Browns Fashion.
The fashion industry over the last decade has really undergone some huge changes, particularly with luxury brands adopting streetwear and adopting those kind of more accessible styles.
(06:04):
And a brand or a retailer like Browns, that has been around so long and had such a distinctive customer proposition in that more exclusive space,
how did that kind of change over the time that you were there?
And what did that mean for you as somebody leading ecommerce?
(06:29):
Yeah, that was a really interesting one because when I started it, we had a very much more classic older customer who bought Alaïa dresses, or dresses for events and high heels, Louis Vuittons and fine jewellery.
But then we started to sell in our young designers store, Browns Focus, these Brian Lichtenberg hoodies from LA.
(06:51):
And they sold out immediately.
And because it's more of a contemporary price point product, you get ATS.
So we got new stock in and sold out again.
So then we ended up building out a bigger streetwear range.
And at that point, they did sit into different site areas, the kind of classic Browns high fashion and then the streetwear.
And around the time that Browns was acquired by Farfetch and Holli Rogers came in as our new CEO from Net-a-Porter, it was that time right when fashion was changing, with this sort of high-low mix of people wearing trainers with their Valentino dresses.
(07:29):
And her sort of vision that we implemented was let's mix it all together, with the exception of some brands that didn't want to be mixed that way, like Alaïa.
But for instance, with brands like Balenciaga, that was their aesthetic, was streetwear.
So it kind of worked really well that we could just blend it.
And that was sort of our USP in the market that we were sort of the first people to do that in the multi-brand luxury fashion ecommerce space.
(07:57):
And we attracted a lot of younger customers for that sort of irreverence.
And it worked really well because it also solved the problem of like, oh, how are we going to...
Before we had great automated merchandising where you could blend based off of brand adjacencies, you had to do it all manually.
And with the way deliveries come in as well, you had to sort of curate your edits quite tricky.
(08:20):
Like it's difficult to curate and edit if you only had some brands from classic, some brands from street.
This way you could bring them together for outfits and for listings pages.
So it worked really well, actually.
But it was a big change from when I started when luxury was much more buttoned-up, I guess.
When you first started, fashion's undergoing this seismic change over...
(08:45):
And particularly luxury fashion is undergoing this seismic change over the last 10 years.
But also technology is moving underneath our feet at the same time.
And you touched on, like, merchandising there.
So can you talk us through a bit about how merchandising tools have evolved over that time and the kind of things that you were using?
(09:11):
Yeah, so when I first started at Browns, we had a bespoke platform that had the merchandising was done off a numbered grid system.
So if you would assign an index number to every product, the higher number would always go to the top of the page.
And you also, of course, only would update every 15 minutes.
So I literally would make a grid on a piece of paper beside my computer with my numbers and a note of what product that was, like green Gucci jacket, black Acne trousers, and then do my merchandising that way.
(09:43):
I actually had a quite clever way of then, when they got kicked out of new in and went into listings, I assigned every colour a prefix number.
So black was 10.
Then I think I did blue is nine.
And so then when you go to hit listings pages, every listings page for like coats or would just go from black to blue to green to yellow.
(10:07):
So colour story, literally painting by numbers.
Yeah, literally.
And then if I ran out of, I think I had, like, seven digits, then I had to start all over from scratch.
I think I made an intern do the renumbering project at one point.
I feel for that intern.
Yeah.
Oh, there was some real abuse of interns back then when rather than use like a VLOOKUP and say, oh, actually, can you just go through this sheet?
(10:34):
And, you know, just copy this into that.
Yeah, that'd be great.
No, but then kind of we got our own drag-and-drop kind of merchandising, which is quite standard now for manual merchandising.
But even it was only, I think, until about 2017 that we started actually doing algorithms.
I think manual merchandising still has a big part to play in luxury because you are selling this sort of aspirational vision.
(11:01):
So you always, manual merchandise top of pages, but then you also have trade actions you want to surface and pin to the top.
But it was then after that bringing in a blend that you could choose and make a cocktail out of, like, how I want to weight bestsellers versus time on site versus recently viewed, customer also viewed...
And then that also leads into the recommendations you see on, like, product pages, which are now completely controlled by algorithms normally.
(11:28):
But I mean, we didn't even have those.
When I first started, it was just, we just shopped the look, which is an interesting one because that's always a big fashion focal point, shop the look.
And when, since we were so keen on our styling at Browns, we always had as a big priority and it was very visible on the product page.
But then the kind of tech wisdom was that, oh, customers also bought or viewed is more powerful in terms of sales.
(11:56):
That's what should be you doing.
And also you should be doing that because it's more scalable.
Like, manually creating these outfits in the system is a bad business practice.
So we actually ran an A-B test of replacing that with, shop the look with a recommended instead and it actually didn't perform as well.
Having, so yeah, our customers particularly really wanted to see that outfit and discover new products that we had sort of curated for them.
(12:22):
Whereas it still was valuable that we had recommended running on the algorithm below the kind of outfit section because yeah, there are customers who will, you know, use that algorithm as well.
But it was interesting learning that the kind of tech wisdom wasn't necessarily correct.
It was worth doing the manual work to put the outfit in there.
(12:43):
It didn't necessarily meet the styling and the retail wisdom.
And I suppose that, would that start in production?
So the buyer has been presented with their limited assortment from the luxury brand.
And that goes into a production process to be styled and photographed.
(13:08):
And would that shop the look then need to carry right the way through from the product imagery into the way that the site was merchandised?
Was that part of your...
Yeah, so we actually assigned it with the styling assistants in the studio.
So they would do it into the PIM basically as they were shooting the look.
And then that way it carried through the whole way.
(13:29):
So it was time-consuming on that side of things.
Once it was in, then it was in.
And did that change over time?
So once Farfetch made that acquisition, was more technology brought in to facilitate that or was it still a pretty manual job?
It stayed manual the whole time.
I mean, there was lots of efficiencies that came in with Farfetch and
(13:53):
we also added size and fit assistance in the studio and we ended up combining the roles.
So, you know, they would enter in the outfit while also measuring the product, checking the fit with the model, seeing if it was true to size.
But yeah, the nature of that is kind of that it always was fairly manual.
I mean, they added more scanning technology, I think.
(14:14):
They used a barcode scanner.
Whereas I think in the past we would quite often do it semi-manually, like find the product on the website, intern copy and paste the link, that type of thing.
And I think that doesn't sound very scalable.
And I think for anyone listening, can you give us a bit of context about, like, size?
(14:38):
So are we talking a couple of hundred?
Are we talking a couple of thousand SKUs?
Like, what kind of size business are we talking about here on, like, a seasonal basis?
So Browns, when we were bought by Farfetch, was about 12,000 SKUs to like styles, unique styles a year.
(14:59):
So about six a season.
And then we moved over, it was a long time, over five years.
We grew to 60,000 SKUs per year.
And then the studio team also at the peak was about a hundred in production across logistics, styling, assistants.
So fit assistants, shop look assistants, style assistants, photography, retouch.
(15:25):
Wow, yeah.
So it was a massive team.
But then actually with that many products, you're shooting pretty much flat out all day, every day.
A hundred sounds like a lot, but if it's over 60,000 styles in a year, that's 30,000 in a season.
That's a lot of productivity out of each one of those hundred people, right?
(15:47):
At peak, we would shoot weekends and do shifts as well.
So you had, like, one that started at 6am, finished at 2pm, and then somebody from 2pm to 10pm, basically, just to get the maximum.
That's pretty flat out.
And the amount of data that you were capturing at the same time, you know, when you're actually measuring the garments, checking the fit size, recording all of that information, there was actually a pretty substantial production process that you had there.
(16:17):
It was quite big because with luxury and lots of demands from the brands, that, you know, the finished product looks a certain way.
So particularly with styling, even if we were going to mix the high-low, it obviously had to look really good because if you mix high-low and it looks bad, then you're really in trouble with the brand.
(16:38):
So if you're going to...
So that was our one kind of problem with that strategy was that you had to really pull it off.
Whereas if you do head to toe, it's easier to make it look good because that's how the brand designed it.
And, you know, you can kind of just easily put it together, shoot it and move on.
So that's why it was such a big team and a big support team of kind of managers at, like, styling and art direction level to kind of keep the team on point for that type of thing.
(17:06):
But yeah, with the size and fit, actually, we did another pilot, which it's a shame it didn't...
I mean, a lot of, like Mr. Porter in that group, basically, they were doing it for a while, which we did an A-B test of it as well, where we measured every size that we received in our DC.
So then you'd have a table on the product page that would pop up and size guide that said as small as these measurements, a medium as these measurements, large as these measurements.
(17:34):
And that was also, like, a team of 12 doing that across the catalogue.
We did see positive conversion rate and lower return rate, but for the cost of running that and the kind of systems demands, it didn't really work for us at the time to have it more than a pilot scheme.
But that, you know, it is amazing data to have.
(17:58):
How long did you run that pilot scheme for?
Six months.
Was it mainly, like, female fashion or was it across all of...?
It was across both men's and women's.
We did it across the whole catalogue while we were running the scheme.
And what sort of a reduction did you see in the returns rate?
I mean, obviously, there's a lot of returns.
(18:18):
You know, there's other things that factor into returns rate.
But we did see, you know, it dropped from around 30 to 25.
But we were doing some other activations around that as well.
Like, I think the fit assistance in the studio also helped to say if it was true to size or not.
Yeah.
And out of all of the things that you were doing, did you hold on to certain practices?
(18:40):
So we held on to the fit assistance in the studio to kind of gather the true to size nature and to measure the shooting size.
So you had some scale of at least what one size was.
And then we managed to maintain after the pilot, like returns rate, you know, kind of, it varied depending on the season, but, like, if it didn't mark down or not.
(19:03):
But it was like around 25, 27.
So we never hit 30 again.
So it was an improvement.
Yeah.
You said that the conversion rate was improved as well.
How did you surface the sizing information?
Did you do something to, you know, to increase the visibility and thereby give additional assurance to people that the sizing was correct?
Like, how did you achieve that?
(19:24):
Why did the conversion rate increase, do you think?
So we did have a size and fit section on the PDP, but then we also had the pop-up and we actually did highlight, we made some UX improvements to the pop-up CTA that I think helped with that.
And then when you hit into that, you got the grid with measurements.
Yeah.
(19:45):
It's a massive overhead, though.
And I think price points, luxury has a better chance of making something like that work than certainly a fast-fashion brand that's much, much lower.
I mean, if you're a mono-brand, you should have the information anyway.
So I think it's definitely something that is very helpful.
(20:07):
I mean, that's the big, you know, not to get into that too much, but that's the sort of Holy Grail that every tech company is chasing is the digital size and fit solution.
Yeah.
It's not the first time it's actually come up in conversation.
Like, if we rewind back to one of our earlier podcast episodes, I think Matt Brown was talking about his frustration with size and fit driving returns online.
(20:35):
And I'd say, like, particularly in luxury, it must be quite challenging because that price point is so much higher.
I think part of Matt's point as well was around the customer experience.
It was that whole idea of this company knows my fit and will be recommending product that fits me and I have that assurance.
(20:59):
And that is, he referred to it like it's a very, very pleasant experience of having an actual tailor who has measured you and you know that everything that you're going to be presented with will fit you.
And, you know, so you know that you have less of that concern about, okay, I have yet to try this on.
Will I end up having to return?
All of that kind of thing.
Yeah, there's some of that, but that leans into that in-store experience.
(21:23):
And I know one of the things that Farfetch started to do post the acquisition of Browns was start to bring some of that kind of technology and some of that into store.
And there would have been quite a bit of innovation in that space.
One of the things I'd be keen to understand is how did that impact your online business?
(21:48):
Did it work well?
Did it work in tandem?
What were kind of the impacts there, Marshall?
Yes, it definitely did positively impact the online business, especially because we did have quite a big cohort of customers who were, you know, not necessarily based in the UK, but then they would like, they shopped through their personal shopper in the store.
(22:14):
So they could then use the Store of the Future app to kind of place their orders through their assistant, through their shopper, but it would come through as a web sale.
We ended up separating it out to have like a separate department, which we called The Club, which was for those customers.
But it did generate more sales because also they got the assurance because they could communicate with their stylist while they were shopping online.
(22:41):
I think that was a great use case of that.
And that was all part of the Store of the Future programme?
Yeah, exactly.
What other kinds of things were in that?
I mean, most, it was a lot more like magic mirrors.
So, you know, if you're looking in the fitting room, you have suggested more of the shopper look kind of idea.
And you could then tap, oh, these shoes, and then the sales assistant gets the notification through the app, bring the shoes to fitting room five.
(23:09):
And then also if they had the app, when they're coming into store, location services would know they're about to arrive.
They could have pre-selected items they want to see.
Also, the sales assistant has their whole history of shopping.
So it's a better way of serving them and connecting the online, offline customer.
(23:30):
There's a lot of talk about whether or not retailers should develop an app for their business.
And often the apps themselves would probably be not much more advanced than the website, except that the customer is always logged in.
What you're talking about, there's a heap of additional functionality in that sort of an app.
(23:56):
What's your take on that, Marshall?
Do you think, is it worth developing an app for your retail business if it's only slightly better than the website?
Or do you feel like you would need to have all of those additional pieces of functionality, like location awareness, I'm coming in store, I'm already in store, I'm in the changing room, you know, all of that sort of thing.
(24:17):
I mean, obviously you can see the benefit of all of those.
That makes it clear that an app would be useful, but yeah...
I think the biggest benefit of having an app is for loyalty and rewarding loyalty.
Whereas the Farfetch one, because they were already so advanced in what they were doing, and this was a big showcase moment, they probably took it further than most businesses would need to.
(24:42):
And I think from, and that's, you know, like I'm now at Fenwick and we don't have an app, but I think there's...
That was going to be my next question.
At Fenwick, would you actually get an app in that case?
Yeah, I think there's scope down the line, but I think that what it would be for would be, because you have to think with an app, you basically opened up a direct portal to people's pockets where you can ping them notifications about products.
(25:09):
But I mean, you need to be quite careful you're not spamming them.
So it is, you know, things that they're interested in.
So you do need to link up.
I think that's the big power is you're linking up that purchase history and viewing his browsing history with promotions or products you might have in.
And I think, you know, discount or discounts or perks for app customers.
(25:29):
I mean, to use Waitrose as an example, I'm a sucker for that coffee.
So that's why I've got my Waitrose card and I literally will go out of my way, like, oh, I need groceries.
Let's swing around Waitrose at about 2pm so I can get the stuff for dinner and my coffee.
And I think that's where, because Fenwick is, we have food, we have restaurants in the stores.
(25:52):
I feel like that's where we could really leverage it.
And out of curiosity, because you mentioned loyalty and I was at a conference last week and there was a lot of discussion around loyalty for luxury brands.
A number of years ago, a lot of luxury brands had the sense that loyalty was a little bit naff and wasn't really, yeah, it wasn't applicable in their business for their customer.
(26:14):
And I think that they're coming around a little bit.
And now there's this sense of we're not talking about loyalty as much as we're talking about community.
But what do you think about that?
What's your take on loyalty community?
Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't say it's naff.
I think also with brands, this is multi-brand.
The thing with loyalty as in the kind of London multi-brand luxury fashion market, there's a lot of competition.
(26:40):
So you almost have to offer something.
And with our loyalty, it wasn't so much like, you know, it wasn't a free coffee.
I mean, it was free coffee.
You came in, had your appointment, but we did it more around the services you received exclusive in...
I mean, that's what most luxury brands do now for loyalty.
It's, you know, invites to fabulous dinners or talks or, I mean, big brands will send people to fashion shows.
(27:04):
And when Louis Vuitton is doing the resort in Palm Springs, they fly people out who are big clients.
I mean, that's the kind of future.
That does sound like a gig that I would enjoy.
Exactly.
We might even do it for free.
A clienteling gig.
Brilliant.
So Fenwick's a little bit different to Browns...
(27:26):
Yeah, a bit different.
But equally as interesting in terms of product catalogue breadth and the production overhead.
But there must be some key differences in things like product access and that kind of thing?
Yeah, I mean, what I found, I mean, I'm five weeks in, so I don't know everything about the business yet.
(27:49):
But I do find the ways of working, I think also just the nature of the business, because Fenwick is a national chain of department stores.
We've got nine in the UK.
It is a big account for big beauty brands.
Whereas at Browns, we sold beauty, but much more in ASOP and some really cult skincare quantities.
(28:10):
Whereas at Fenwick, and because the website's very visible for these beauty brands, and it's a big account, they want my sort of role to basically work directly with them on assortment, go to their press days, go to their strategy sessions.
And even to determine what's selling, how can we adapt the range and get different purchases or promotions.
(28:33):
And the fashion brands also work that way.
I mean, they're more run, we have a lot more access to swap out.
So we have regular meetings with each of the brands.
So it's almost more the ecommerce sort of digital trading manager role is almost more of a buying role in terms of how I work with the brands than I did at Browns.
(28:55):
Because at Browns, the buyers were the buyers and they worked with the brands and then they fed down to us mere mortals.
Yeah.
And now I'm the, you know, I've got a seat at the table and they want to know what's working, how can we drive sales?
Do the buyers see that, as like, okay, hey, we're closing the loop and we're getting data back?
Or do they see it as the tail wagging the dog?
(29:18):
Like, you mean the buyers at Browns, for instance?
Yeah well, Fenwick I was thinking, but...
Yeah, Fenwick, do the buyers welcome this more than, I can imagine that they don't at Browns, but tell us?
Oh, no, I know.
I think, yeah, the way luxury buying is set up, I think is very siloed in that sense.
(29:38):
And there's a whole hierarchy within buying that, you know, you do your time to progress to the next level.
So you can finally, you know, be Miranda Priestly at Paris Fashion Week.
I mean, Fenwick, I think, because the mix of concessions and own-bought is also a lot heavier on concession.
And concessions are set up to work more directly with operational people like e-com rather than through buying.
(30:06):
I mean, you have a concession sort of manager, but so the buyers at Fenwick are actually, yeah, they're quite open to this way of working.
I mean it's the way they kind of always work.
So I think they're glad to get the access to the data and it's a bit more of an efficient way of working just going directly.
Whereas in the past, you know, Browns buyers would ask for this kind of data if they had a certain appointment that had requested it, but they would tend to source most of the data out of the merchandising team rather than through e-com.
(30:36):
So they would come to e-com with maybe some, you know, web stats if they wanted those, but sales-wise, they went more through merchandising.
Whereas the way Fenwick is set up, I have a sort of digital merchandising team that has access to all the data that they're after, that we give the brands through our own working with them.
(31:00):
Very good.
We're kind of approaching time to wrap up, but I do have a question.
We talked a little bit about omnichannel, touched on it with the app for Browns and, you know, Gordon and I talk quite regularly about how it is the job of the merchant or the retailer to ensure that each of the touchpoints for the customer are joined up in a kind of a sensible way that it feels frictionless, that it feels like one single experience.
(31:28):
And I know that in some cases, some luxury brands might feel, well, actually, you know, we really want our customer to come in-store.
They have to feel, you know, have the experience, have the welcome and omnichannel isn't for us and that sort of thing.
And I was curious to know for the Browns customer, did they enjoy the omnichannel experience?
(31:49):
Did they use it?
Maybe they had no opinion on it because it was so frictionless that they just felt that this was the experience, you know?
Well, I think they enjoyed it, but I think it's one of those things where you notice it more when it's not there.
And because we had sort of, and a lot of the competition in London offers that type of experience or, you know, coming from Hong Kong, they also would be used to it.
(32:14):
So for that kind of Browns customer we had that was very tech savvy, they, I think, expected it.
So it was almost like they would have really noticed if it wasn't there rather than really noticing that it was there.
Does that make sense?
Brilliant.
One last question for me as we wrap up.
(32:35):
Recently joined Fenwick, what are your big priorities in terms of, like, the coming 12 months?
What's on your hit list of things that we'd like to do that you can share with us?
Yeah, well, I think maybe because I grew up in, you know, the 90s, I still have such a, I think it's a shame what's happening to department stores, I think.
(33:01):
And I think it's exciting that there is an opportunity now to, you know, Fenwick is doing well, actually, in the kind of grand scheme of department stores, but it's an exciting opportunity to kind of how does a department store function in, you know, the 2020s.
And I think what I've noticed is that we're very siloed in terms of our online experience with the categories, like beauty is its own landing page, women's its own landing page, and home is its own landing page.
(33:28):
I really want to create this sort of lifestyle brand that, because why would people shop with us if it's not to come for a one-stop shop?
Because yeah, the benefit, the USP should be that we sell, you know, nice home accessories and cool clothing brands and your kids' wear and things for the dinner party you're having.
(33:50):
And I think that's where we need to become more of this lifestyle destination through the online journey and the online merchandising and the online assortment as well.
So I think that's what's exciting about it is to kind of create this journey and this destination.
That is brilliant and we wish you the absolute best of luck.
(34:10):
Although we don't think that you'll need the luck to do it because you sound like you've got a very clear vision.
Well, I'll take it if I can get it.
Great.
Thanks so much, Marshall.
We'll talk to you again soon.
Take care.
Thank you both.
Thank you.
What did we learn?
We learned that luxury is difficult.
(34:31):
Luxury, yeah.
It sounds very difficult.
It sounds really challenging, doesn't it?
It's not like myth-busting luxury is what I learned lots about today.
I think one of the interesting things, I recall a Black Friday that I would prefer not to recall where we had an issue with the promotion for a particular product that was very much in demand.
(34:55):
A fine product, you know, in the realm of luxury.
A lot of people wanted it and there was kind of a last-minute discount was put on the product which caused problems for the website when it was re-indexing the pricing, et cetera.
And there was quite a bit of marketing spend behind the generation of anticipation around this product.
And when the product was actually sold, it sold out in seconds flat.
(35:20):
And then there was a whole amount of post, you know, chatter on socials about, oh my God, they didn't have it anyway.
Like, I mean, I couldn't get it.
Did you get it?
Nobody got it.
You know, did they really have it for sale at that price, et cetera, et cetera.
And what happened was, it turned out that after all of the effort and work and everything else, they only had 20 of the items actually in stock.
(35:40):
So they had 20 units.
And, you know, there was a similar, there was a similar point there.
How Balenciaga SSS of them?
Yeah, like, I mean, you know, you have even PlayStation 5 a couple of years ago, which brought down websites across the world.
In some cases, the websites only had a couple, you know, had tens of them to sell.
I remember one particular site had like four or five hours of disruption because people just kept on hitting the site to try and get this product.
(36:07):
Anyway, I guess my point is you spend an awful lot of time, there's an awful lot of marketing, there's an awful lot of effort goes into it.
Is it all worth it?
Is it worth it?
Yeah.
I think we learned that in the case of luuxury, I'm going to stop pronouncing luxury like that now, but in the case of luuxury, I think...
You're still pronouncing it that way...
Of course I am.
(36:28):
Try it again, try it again.
Luuxury...
Luxury, luxury.
Luxury.
Yes, perfect.
So in the case of selling luxury... I'm so self-conscious of that now.
I can't not say it...
High-quality premium goods...
Well, in the tier above premium... See? I got away with it.
(36:54):
I think we learned some really interesting things around the importance of storytelling.
There's a theme of how that investment that was made in terms of production, in terms of shop the look, outperformed an algorithm.
And then I think, okay, well that's...
(37:15):
Is that really surprising?
Well, it shouldn't be because that's what we tell everybody that they should be doing.
So I'm just delighted to get that affirmation.
What was interesting was the sales declined if they took the shop the look off of the PDP, but it was better to have both shop the look and the algorithm in there.
Because people shop in different ways.
Yeah, exactly.
They want different things at different times.
(37:36):
But we've often had that conversation.
Is it worthwhile actually curating the goods, proposing an outfit or proposing a shop to look?
I mean, of course it is.
That's what people...
That's how you're going to distinguish yourself as a retailer.
People go to your particular store because they know how you're going to present things and they want to see things presented that way to them so that they know what they're supposed to buy.
(37:58):
Because most people don't have the same taste that the buyers have.
I think to be able to inspire customers to be able to put a story together, but particularly for a brand, if you think like Browns, multi-brand, tier above premium retailer, that's their role.
That's the buyer's role is to pull these stories together and inspire customers.
(38:23):
I thought it was very interesting the idea that some of their customers' personal shoppers would arrive in store with the app.
Oh, I love that.
I just thought, how fantastic.
And then this idea of video calling your customer that's far away whilst you're pulling together a collection.
Oh, I'd yearn for that level of service.
(38:44):
What I thought was quite interesting because we have been asked and I asked a question on the call.
We've been asked a couple of times to build an app, and often we're pointed at these kind of website-to-app conversion services.
And the app that Farfetch have put together for Browns, the Store of the Future, I mean, there's phenomenal technology in that and that is not the kind of app that we're being asked to build.
(39:11):
So I guess Marshall's answer was, well, if you can bring loyalty into the mix there, then it's going to be worthwhile.
Do you know whose app's brilliant, and it's recent, and they are also in that luxury space?
Brown Thomas, absolute, like, cracking upgrade to the app recently.
Oh yeah, that was a couple of months ago.
(39:32):
That was a couple of months ago.
And of course, same across Arnotts.
Yeah.
As well as being able to shop it, it's got this fully integrated loyalty now and it just works brilliantly. And I'm a bit of a sucker for bed linen...
Yeah.
I actually had quite a lot of points, apparently.
Apparently, on your bed linen?
That I never knew about, as I was scrolling through the app and my recommendations were popping up.
(39:57):
But really nicely integrated loyalty platform.
They've done a super job.
It works really, it's really slick.
That's a great example of taking core app functionality.
They might as well just have your website works just as well on a mobile, but taking that and then embedding something in there that's useful.
And of course, when you're in Brown Thomas, you can never find your loyalty card.
(40:20):
Yeah, of course, yeah, I have...
And that's like, bringing that down to earth with a bump.
Same in Tesco.
Why have you got the Tesco app?
Because it's got my club card on it.
And that's a loyalty application as well.
Yeah, it was an interesting point because it does seem that even with all of that tech, I am now in the store.
(40:42):
Bring me my clothing.
Bring me my things.
Yeah, even with all of that, the point that he made out or the point that he got to was the loyalty piece.
And it is an interesting area.
I think for 2024, it's going to be a theme.
It has been a theme, but I think it'll be more of something that people focus on.
(41:03):
And it's beyond loyalty.
It's nearly the kind of community, not to get soppy about it, but it's the idea of how do we build the community?
Because these are not just people that we are going to reward for being loyal, but they're also people who are actual advocates for us.
They're part of our community.
We embrace them to maybe give us feedback.
We get their feedback and see what we can change, I think is the super important bit.
(41:27):
Because it is a tier above loyalty.
A tier above loyalty.
I love it.
Now, on to Fenwick's...
Fen-wick's for everybody in Ireland...
Fen-wick's, as Ger has been pronouncing it...
I feel very fancy when I say Fenwick's.
Fenwick's is obviously a brand, a retailer dear to my heart.
(41:49):
It's a department store I have always loved.
And it's interesting to see or to hear about the take on what is that role of the modern department store.
So you've got your kind of hyper-luxury department stores, your Selfridges and your Harrods.
(42:09):
Fenwick's is premium.
It's an attainable place.
But actually hearing the take that we can stitch those lifestyle stories together, it's important to get the assortment right.
But if the assortment's right, how do we bring those stories together online so that you can do all of those things as a one-stop shop?
(42:31):
And yeah, what I really liked was this...
It was just before the call when we were just chatting as we were kind of getting set up.
And he mentioned, Marshall mentioned how Fenwick's was cool in Edwardian times.
And it was cool in the 60s.
And I can imagine that, you know, where, where there's kind of a, like a cool cycle of, you know, a cycle of coolness...
(42:54):
Well, it's the big question is, right?
One of the things I'm thinking is, like, will department stores come back?
So if you think, right, if you think of House of Fraser, which is often pronounced House of Frasier, which drives me bananas. But if you think about...
Okay, this is the pronunciation episode obviously. House of Frasier, Fen-wick's and luuxury...
(43:14):
Luuxury.
But if you think about, like, House of Fraser just before its, its demise, and then you've of course got the demise of Debenhams.
So the general school of thought is that actually the department store is on the way out because we've got infinite choice at our fingertips, the fingertips of desire.
(43:38):
Thanks, Dean.
Stole the Deanism.
That the department store be on the way out.
But actually, there's a bit of a depart...
I think there's going to be a bit of a department store renaissance.
I think that Fraser's Group are doing a good job of the restoration of the Fraser's department stores that they're investing in.
(44:02):
We're seeing, like, Brown Thomas on our own shores, fabulous.
Selfridges, fabulous.
Harrods, fabulous.
Fenwick's doing really well.
So is there a role for, for the department store to do that curation job?
Yeah, this is a broader retail question.
I don't even know if it's an ecommerce question, but to, to do that curation job and to present that one-stop shop in a way that's really desirable with great experience.
(44:31):
House of Fraser was just underinvested.
Yeah.
Like it was not a nice experience. But if you go into, like my recent encounter with House of Fraser's in, in Belfast in Victoria Square, the refitting there's stunning.
Yeah, yeah.
Yes, I think the answer to your question feels like yes.
Let's say the presentation of the lifestyle, not just, you know, it's not here's the look.
(44:57):
It's here's the lifestyle.
On a general level, this is how your home... this is your homeware lifestyle proposition.
This is your ladieswear.
This is how your kids are going to be dressed.
And there's, there's, you're broadening it across a range.
And maybe, maybe this is unfair.
And I'm not an expert in the whole, you know, downfall of the department stores, but it certainly felt like the department store was where you got a broad range of things cheaply, as opposed to a broad range of things that, that, that were aspirationally fitting into your, what you would like...
(45:29):
Get off that promotional cycle.
Yeah.
Get off like Debenhams on the Blue Cross sale, but like get away from the promotional cycle and get into that aspirational cycle.
Yeah.
Stuff that people actually want and get excited about and are prepared to make that investment in.
And if you create that, then, then surely that's what's going to excite people back into the store...
(45:51):
Oh, I can't wait to see what's in this season at X department store.
I think there's still an opportunity.
I mean, it doesn't have to all be investment pieces.
You know, I think there's still an opportunity that's at the department store level.
You know, you might, you might come in to look at an eveningwear, like something for an event, and you might leave with, you know, some, some clothing for the kids, you know.
(46:12):
Well, not all beauty needs to be directional.
Right.
You've got to explain that to me.
What do you mean?
So, right...
Okay, so you think about the beauty department in the beauty hall and that's, like, potentially, like, thousands, tens of thousands of SKUs, or a really, really edited selection of very, very premium price point options.
(46:37):
Yeah.
And actually for the department store shopper, then isn't it about actually I need to be able to get everything.
I don't need €200 moisturiser today.
Well, maybe I do need €200 moisturiser...
Yeah.
But you know what?
I also need the essentials, but I need the essentials to be, like, nice.
(47:01):
And it doesn't have to be directional.
So it'll be interesting to see where that kind of mid-tier department store lands...
Because there is, yeah, because when you have the luxury and you have the, you know, the premium, there is the tier below the premium, which is still an area that isn't, doesn't have to be cheap or, you know, you still have a requirement to buy things that are, you know, sometimes a little bit of an investment or a treat, but they're not yet in the luxury sphere...
(47:32):
Or they're not in that... there is a pyramid.
Oh, God, there has to be a pyramid.
Of course, there's a pyramid.
And at the pyramid, at the pinnacle, you have...
Is it a triangle or a pyramid?
It's a triangle.
It's the triangle of luxury.
And then you have your, at the pinnacle you have luxury, and then you have premium, and then you have your mid-market product.
(47:54):
And then you have your tier of entry level or, or more budget friendly product.
And I think there's, there's a lot of blurring between kind of mid-market and premium, and then premium and luxury.
It'll be interesting to see how the department store thing plays out.
But I think the role of ecommerce and omnichannel managers and leaders within that space is not... As Marshall says,
(48:21):
and I think it's brilliant that he is getting involved in that buying cycle, is to actually use the data that's being generated.
Build those feedback loops in and actually shape the direction of, of the experience and that experience must be carried through online and in-store and focus on editing and storytelling.
(48:44):
Because it has to be the case that as well that the ecommerce platform must be the leading edge of what's happening out there.
You know, if you're thinking about where you're looking for where, you know, the stone in the pool with the ripple effect.
I mean, some of the stores are going to be the very end or the very external ripple and presumably at this stage, the ecommerce must be where you really spot the trends as they happen and as the, you know, as people's behaviours and attitudes are changing to the fashion that they're buying.
(49:19):
So it makes a whole heap of sense.
And it's interesting to see that now in Marshall's role that that's where he is, that's where they're at and they're looking for that kind of feedback.
I can't wait to see what they do.
Yeah, I'm looking forward to it.
Gordon, it's been a pleasure again, as always.
It's been luuxury.
And thanks very much to all our listeners, and we'll speak to you all soon.
(49:39):
You've been listening to Functional & Fabulous with Ger Keohane and Gordon Newman.
If you'd like to know more about the podcast, or about Studio 49 and Omnichannel Stories, please go to functionalandfabulous.ie. Our sound engineer was Elaine Smith, and the show was produced by Roger Overall.
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