April 26, 2024 • 41 mins
In this episode, recorded live at The Laughter Lounge in Dublin at StudioFory9's Transformation: Excellence in Ecommerce conference, Ger and Gordon talk on stage with Paul Rogers, ecommerce consultant and founder of Vervaunt, a London-based eCommerce consultancy and performance marketing agency.
They discuss clienteling, unified commerce, Shopify's big data play (bye bye GA4) and the importance of the order confirmation page in boosting sales and data acquisition.
There are also bouncy couches, complete silence and poetic language.
Can you afford to miss this episode of Functional and Fabulous? No, you cannot.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
This is Functional and Fabulous, the Omnichannel podcast where we unbox tales of online retail and digital transformation.
In this episode recorded live at the Laughter Lounge in Dublin at StudioForty9's Transformation Excellence in E-commerce Conference, Ger promotes a rival podcast.
(00:22):
Wait, no, that can't be right.
Paul co-hosts a podcast with James Gurd called Inside E-commerce.
I'm currently at 200.
In this episode, Gordon reviews some furniture.
They're very bouncy couches.
Our guest reviews Google Analytics.
But obviously GA4 is horrible and everyone hates using it.
(00:44):
Ger recites his latest poem.
A clean white room with a single product right in the middle on a podium and an exit sign.
It's not very good.
We'll cut that out.
Our guest provides the best clickbait quote ever.
They had one customer that spent half a million a year on sunglasses.
And Gordon talks about his favorite restaurants.
(01:06):
My takeaways are...
This episode of Functional and Fabulous is brought to you with pride by StudioForty9, retail e-commerce experts, omni-channel growth consultants, and cut through performance marketing specialists.
StudioForty9, where your digital retail success is built.
(01:26):
Good afternoon, everybody.
So you might be wondering what we're doing up here on couches, relaxing.
Relax, Gordon.
They're very bouncy couches.
So some of you might be aware of myself and Gordon
have a podcast called Functional and Fabulous.
It was started pretty much at this conference about two years ago when we had a bit of a fireside chat and we thought that we were so good at it, we'd start a podcast and unleash yet another podcast onto the world.
(02:01):
Because there aren't enough already.
Not enough about e-commerce.
So we had a live one last year at this conference.
And it's a real pleasure to kick off season two of Functional and Fabulous with a live podcast direct from the StudioForty9 Excellence in E-commerce Conference here in Dublin.
(02:22):
And I'm delighted to welcome Paul Rogers, who traveled over from London today to join us on stage and in the hot seat.
Paul is one of the UK's most trusted and expert thought leaders in e-commerce.
His opinions and thinking are sought out by tech vendors, e-commerce platforms and merchants alike.
And the company he co-founded, Vervaunt, works with an enviable who's who of global brands, including Doc Martens, which I'm wearing, in honor, Coz, which I'm not wearing, Stuzzi, Represent, APC, Timex, the Frankie Shop, Muji, Osprey, Fred Perry, Timex.
(03:00):
Honestly, the list goes on and on.
In Ireland, he's worked with our own iconic sports brand, O'Neill's.
I don't know, did you make it yet, too, in all Ireland?
No, I haven't.
I spent a lot of time in Strabane.
And Paul co-hosts a podcast with James Gurd called Inside Ecommerce, currently at 230 odd episodes.
(03:23):
It deals with e-commerce strategy, customer experience and technology.
And he also hosts his own conference each year in London called Pulse, which is on at the end of May, and which I can highly recommend to anybody in the audience looking for a good e-commerce conference.
Paul, that's an awful lot.
It's great to have you here today.
Yeah, great.
Thanks so much for inviting me over as well.
I'm super impressed by this event.
(03:44):
And yeah, it's great.
So you're very welcome to the podcast, Paul.
And that was like a veritable who's who of the high street plus one of the longest intros I think we've ever had to do.
You're very welcome.
So Paul, today's conference theme is Transformation Through Clienteling.
I guess that's probably not a very well known term.
(04:04):
What do you think of when we use that term?
Yeah, it's interesting because I guess we obviously caught up last week about this talk.
And I said that I think we probably had slightly different definitions of clienteling.
So I would typically associate it more with the kind of luxury brands that we work with who maybe do more kind of personal one-to-one level kind of client relationship management and kind of use that mechanism to try and generate more income from those customers who might be worth upwards of 100k a year in some cases with some of our clients.
(04:44):
So yeah, I would maybe look at it more as kind of like a very personal relationship experience, I guess.
And it seems to me that there's a resurgence in people working on loyalty offerings in the last little while.
Would you agree with that?
Yeah, definitely.
And I think, and again, this comes back to that same discussion.
(05:05):
I think I would say it's not just loyalty.
So our average client is maybe more of a premium fashion brand.
And I think we'll come on to first buy data later.
And I think it will be a big topic for this discussion.
But I think there's a lot more kind of shifting towards general kind of membership.
And that may be being like the foundation of a first party data strategy, but also like community.
(05:28):
And then also a lot more kind of VIP that's more service orientated, and maybe a little bit more kind of surprise and delight focused, rather than like monetary points, that kind of stuff.
So really about moving beyond the idea of loyalty points.
Yeah, exactly.
And I still think, you know, you raise the point, because I think sometimes I'm a bit alien to like the rest of the world, where we do work with a lot of these brands.
(05:51):
And I do think, you know, points work and, you know, having these kind of tiered programs, they do work.
And people want to move between the tiers.
People want the rewards off the back of these programs.
But equally, I think if, you know, your business is a brand and, you know, your biggest selling point is the brand and, you know, the aesthetic and the way that you kind of communicate and position yourself.
(06:15):
Yeah, I think that's where it's more about trying to apply the same principles.
But being less about discounting and, you know, monetary benefit, if that makes sense.
Yeah, I think anybody that's had to deal with their CFO at any point is, loyalty points is just giving away money, I think.
We probably all heard that at some point.
(06:35):
But what I'd be really interested if we could explore is, how can we take some of these ideas from luxury and apply them to different verticals?
Be that pet food, be that health and wellness.
And what ideas can we take from an industry that's traditionally really, really good at doing this?
(06:58):
And how can we start to apply those to other industries or other verticals and apply them digitally?
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, to be honest, I just look at it as I think some of the brands are forced to be a bit more creative because they don't have the luxury of being able to like, yeah, I guess discount or give away kind of store credit or whatever else.
(07:22):
So, yeah, I think a lot of the principles are probably more just about marketing.
And, you know, we've had clients that have done things like they've introduced a resale program that's only available to people that have kind of got to a certain threshold or people that have kind of created bespoke products and you can only buy them if you've spent enough money or et cetera.
(07:44):
Or we've had, I worked with a glasses retailer that printed like lots of like high demand local art on the whatever you call the glasses cleaner things.
And you'd only get them again if you went into the store and you know you're a kind of loyal customer.
And they're just some examples like lots of people do events.
We work at Represent.
(08:04):
They do lots of cool stuff for their VIPs offline.
So yeah, I think it's just taking that and yeah, trying to essentially create like exclusivity alongside some of the financial stuff for me and maybe more like brand focused comms alongside it.
So that's that's quite a lot.
So there's tons of ideas there.
(08:24):
I think like you've just gone.
I think you've just given everybody like eight or ten ideas just right off the cuff.
So if you're saying listening to this and you're thinking I've got to do something with loyalty and the CFO is going to say, no, you can't do points.
Where would you start?
What would be like what would be the advice that you would give to people of like, OK, I want to do this.
(08:46):
But what's the starting point?
Absolutely.
So I think this has been touched on in a number of the talks this morning.
I've been really impressed with the content from your team in particular.
And I think I've tried not to talk about it intentionally so far, but I think we would naturally come on to it with this topic.
So I think the way the world's going, everyone is trying to capture as much first party data as possible.
(09:10):
And also with all of the privacy changes, there's a lot of benefits from a tracking perspective, amongst other things, from a customer building an account and having a logged in experience so that you can track against a customer.
And also you can do more kind of within the theme and whatever else.
So I think the first thing for me that loads of our clients are doing right now, and it's by far the number one item on all of the roadmaps that we have, is basically building a proper account proposition.
(09:43):
And I can't remember the name of the brand that was used with your Epic solution earlier, but that's a really good example.
And another one that I use regularly is Solomon, the footwear brand.
And if you go on their site, they've got the notification icon, which was also cited.
And then they've built what is essentially a loyalty program, but the foundation level is just an account, essentially.
(10:05):
And you get free shipping and free returns as a result of building an account.
And then as part of that process, they're capturing more data, so things like gender, interest, et cetera.
And then that will all be pushed into a CRM or a CDP.
And Jay Lindbergh is another really good example, and they capture things like sizing as well.
(10:26):
And then the next phase could then be to surface that on-site as you're shopping, as you're presenting product to the customer, et cetera.
But essentially, building an account, you have to have an account in almost all instances and in Shopify in order to opt into a loyalty program.
So I think it's an app and obviously you have the first party data benefit and the tracking benefits.
(10:49):
I think it's a no-brainer to really push that new account proposition, new account experience and try and increase the percentage of users that essentially you know who they are and you know what they're doing.
And then also it gives you an opportunity to present different options through the experience and just collect more and more data and know as much as you need to around your customers.
(11:12):
Yeah, I love the example on the Solomon website, where the wayfinders are also being used to collect information, almost like a quiz, but it's part of a very natural progression where you're being asked what kind of shoe are you interested in and you choose the type of shoe and then you choose, is it going to be a shoe or a booze and so on.
And it's capturing that information and then using that to surface sizing and correct sizes and so on through the rest of the experience.
(11:38):
Exactly.
And I think the thing that I like about that is it's just in context within a core journey, whereas particularly in cosmetics and beauty, you get a lot of isolated quiz experiences and they work really well and you can capture great data.
It's a great mechanism for getting an email address or an account board or whatever else, but I think this is more natural.
(12:00):
And if you're paying for traffic, you don't want the friction of pushing people through an account, you know, there's every chance they might abandon, etc.
Or through that experience.
So yeah, I really like that as well.
And Interior defines another really good example where if you go through any non-purchase conversions, so if you go and request a brochure or, you know, set up like an interior, what do you call it, interior?
(12:27):
Like basically a consultation, yeah.
It asks you different questions.
It will ask you like initially it will be like what about the project and then it will ask you about like the scope of like what products you might be interested in.
And all of that again is just to push the data into the CRM or CDP.
And I personally think nowadays like most brands should be doing this with interest in sizing just because you're going to be in a much better position from a CRM perspective and on-site perspective.
(12:57):
I think nowadays it's easier, more easier than ever, to capture that sort of information.
In Shopify now with the meta-fields on customer profiles, you can capture enormous amounts of different types of information and get really detailed and collected as the customer goes along in a more subtle way.
I think Shopify is also making it incredibly easy to get customers to log in.
(13:21):
The new customer account section is basically a one-time passcode.
All you need is your email address.
All of your orders are already collected together.
Where do you see that kind of customer account area for Shopify?
Where do you see that going?
Yeah, I think, I mean, my view on Shopify overall, so I'm like, I'd say our company is essentially platform agnostic, but because of the nature of the brand we work with, we're very Shopify heavy.
(13:45):
And over the last year, over the last kind of 10 years, I've done a lot of like platform valuation stuff, but I've always been super pro Shopify.
And I think overall, their like vision, where they're going is, no one's close to them in terms of what they're trying to achieve and where they sit in the market.
They're almost like a windows or an operating system now.
(14:05):
But I think they're in a very good position to make some big moves.
And I think one of the big moves will be essentially them getting more first party data and them owning the account in a similar way to shop pay.
So I think there'll be more things like that in the Shopify ecosystem.
And I think it will benefit the end consumer because, you know, if you're logged in on one Shopify account, you'll be logged in on another or at least you'll get the prompt.
(14:31):
Or at least there'll be some level of like, yeah, mechanism there that will support the customer, but also Shopify.
Yeah, so I think that's kind of where I see it going.
It would be great if they stepped in as the platform provider that helps retailers fix the decoculus first-party data conundrum.
(14:55):
And I think we all need some help with that because it's quite complex to navigate when you think about all of the other things that are on a head of e-commerce or an e-commerce director or an e-commerce manager's place where they're dealing with everything from operations through to marketing.
So I would love to see that at Shopify listening.
(15:17):
I think they're naturally going that way anyway.
And I also think that all of the competitors that I speak to at Shopify, they're focusing on the little feature that they have available that Shopify doesn't or the fact that they're a bit more flexible when it comes to payments.
But realistically, Shopify is slowly becoming top five first party data owner in the world for commerce.
(15:41):
And they're offering, if you've got pause and social checkout and obviously checkout and whatever other channel you've got through Shopify, you have already built a true unified view of the customer and no one else is providing that.
And I think there are leaps and bounds ahead of everyone else from a data perspective.
(16:03):
I think that's a really interesting thing to just highlight.
And sometimes we're in the weeds when we're operating e-commerce sites.
And just to step away for a little bit and have a look at where it's going, the amount of data that Shopify has also makes available to retailers.
I've regularly shown retailers the customer segmentation options that are available in the back end of Shopify.
(16:28):
And it's fascinating to see what you can pull as information out of those platforms.
But you've mentioned unified commerce.
And I guess it's an interesting thing.
I'm not sure how many people have heard of the term unified commerce yet.
Yeah, so the Shopify people have heard about it.
The people who are selling it.
(16:48):
But do you want to just take us through that a little bit?
Because it's interesting to just pause on that for a moment as we're talking about all of these.
Yeah, so I think it was Gartner that initially coined the term, then Shopify used it a lot.
But essentially, it's just having a unified view of the customer and your data.
I think for a long time, it was an OV, or not for a long time, for a short time, it's been a bit of a buzzword.
(17:14):
And a lot of kind of combined technologies will go out to market and offer that.
But Shopify does genuinely offer that with no code, essentially.
And I think you talked about segmentation.
And I think the other data that will be built up within Shopify now is they're starting to build browsing into that as well, natively, which will be massive.
(17:37):
And last year, particularly Q1, Q2 last year, a lot of our bigger clients were saying, we need a CDP, we need it urgently.
And they didn't really need a CDP.
But they were saying they did.
Or at least they thought they did.
And now with Shopify, you're not far off not needing a CDP.
And actually the role of a lot of the other systems around Shopify is going to...
(17:59):
It's an interesting thing because we were being asked in the last, let's say half a year or two a year, to start pushing data from outside of Shopify into Shopify.
So pause data, ERP data, and pushing that into Shopify because it's nearly the most useful place to have that.
And when you think about that unified e-commerce or unified commerce idea, it's nearly that one single source of truth for all of your data that is updated in real time.
(18:24):
It is the hub that it gathers in all of the rest of the information.
And you can nearly see that, let's say, positioning, I guess, of Shopify in that space.
A hundred percent.
And I think that's something that they've obviously been working on for a long time, but has really come to fruition recently.
And I think the other thing, right now, it's so easy to get data out of Shopify.
(18:47):
Very few other systems in the world are as easy to get data out of than Shopify.
So all of our team will use Supermetrics.
We use various other low-code tools or even just pull data out of the APIs themselves.
And I think, yeah, that's just kind of driving more people to put their data in Shopify.
(19:07):
I think the other big thing that is like a bit of an elephant in the room, not that many people are talking about, because maybe they don't know if it's the right thing to do.
But obviously GA4 is horrible and everyone hates using it.
And I think Shopify have like gradually improved their like traffic reporting, their marketing reporting, et cetera.
(19:29):
And to be honest, I think a lot of our customers now are actually using Shopify's analytics instead of GA4 in like 50, 60, 70 percent of like reports and data they actually need.
And I think if that gets stronger as well, again, it's just like more data for Shopify, obviously.
But also they're just creating a much broader reason to use Shopify.
(19:50):
So you just need the data in the morning really quickly.
You just need your reports.
You need to be able to read your reports quickly.
You need your top level metrics.
Grab those out of Shopify.
You don't need to go GA and spend the rest of the day dealing with meta.
I really saw about meta at the moment.
(20:12):
To go back to the loyalty side of things and that kind of community building, how important do you think it is to approach that with a joined up thinking attitude where you brand the loyalty that you're going to do or the proposition you have around your customers and community?
I think it's massive.
(20:32):
I think it's obviously a much more...
It's something that a customer can buy into more.
It's something that will resonate more with them.
I think a lot of the best examples of loyalty programs have its own brand.
I've been using a lot as an example recently just because they're quite present at the moment.
A lot of people talk about their community, but they've got prestige.
(20:58):
So many of their customers will talk about prestige without even mentioning represent.
I think that goes a long way.
But to be honest, because of this first party data shift, that membership route I mentioned as well, both loyalty and the membership piece, all the biggest brands in the world are doing right now.
You look at Nike, you look at Adidas, you've got Adi Club, I forgot what the Nike one's called.
(21:21):
Yeah, Solomon is S+.
I think it's interesting.
It's nearly like a brand within a brand out on its own in its own right.
You know, some of the nice ones that come to mind are the Elf Beauty Squad.
And we talked with an Irish retailer one time who mentioned that when they had a loyalty program, they just called it The Loyalty Program, nobody used it.
(21:42):
And then they renamed it The A-List, and then people started using it, and you know, that kind of a thing.
And as a kind of, let's say, a next logical extension, can you talk to us a little bit about mobile apps and how you see those?
We get asked quite regularly, and even this morning, somebody in the room here was talking about a mobile app they're about to develop.
(22:05):
I always feel like it's not enough to have just your catalogue in an app.
You have to have an angle.
Can you talk to us a little bit about that?
Yeah, completely agree.
I think if you were to go down the route, essentially, because within Shopify, it's very easy to introduce a native app.
There's a few different vendors that have reduced the barrier to entry, and they can inherit bits of your theme and launch something super quickly.
(22:31):
But I think it's a short-term solution.
I think it's an additional engagement point, maybe short-term, but I personally think it kind of cheapens your brand a bit because it's very transactional.
There's no real reason for that customer to engage.
You're just kind of sending the same messages via different channels, whereas I think...
So I feel like two, three years ago, all of our clients were looking at native apps, and then it died off, and then this year it's been massive.
(22:59):
So a lot of our biggest clients have recently released apps, and those that haven't are working on it now.
And I think we always say you have to have a reason to go to the app that isn't transactional, and pretty much all of our clients are building that in.
So loyalty is part of it.
So for some of our clients, the loyalty program will be managed within the app, and a lot of the content that's built into that will be done by the app.
(23:27):
We've got a client that's doing resale only through the app.
So they've got a bit of a cult following, and they did resale once, and they didn't manage it very well, so they're kind of doing it through the app and then gradually releasing product through the tiers so they can control it.
We've got a client that does client telling through the app, so they do...
(23:50):
So that's Totem.
So they do all of their kind of store, like VIP appointments, events, all of the multi-channel stuff through the app, and that's a really nice way to do it.
We've had clients do advanced sizing stuff through the app, but yeah, from my perspective, I personally think if you do a native app, you have to invest in something that engages the customer semi-regularly and gives them a reason to have that native app experience, be that editorial, loyalty, a game, whatever, something that isn't transactional.
(24:24):
So if an app is on your list, the first question is why?
Exactly.
Why are you going to do this over and above?
And then the next question is what are those things and what's the priority order you're going to put them in?
One other question is, you know, does it work?
Do you think...
Yeah.
Because obviously an app is expensive to produce and you're putting a lot of thought and effort and time into bringing it to fruition.
(24:47):
Do you see it working for people?
Yeah, definitely.
And I think, yeah, all of our clients have kind of focused on the data and it's pretty much always worked, I think.
The ones that haven't have always been transactional.
And even then, there is an argument that it works just in terms of push notifications being like a real high engagement channel and, you know, people still being able to be bought back by the app.
(25:10):
Yeah, it might not be incremental, but it could be a better experience and it could convert better, etc.
But yeah, so Represent is a really good example.
They released their app a little while ago, so maybe like three, four months ago, and it's been, yeah, they've seen decent incremental growth.
I was talking to Liverpool Football Club recently.
They were talking about their app that's now transactional, and they've seen incremental benefit.
(25:34):
And yeah, everyone that I've spoke to that has done it properly and, like you say, had a reason beyond just, yeah, transacting has pretty much always found it to be an effective channel for re-engaging customers.
But I do think it is a retention channel or a re-engagement channel, not a new customer acquisition channel.
(25:57):
When we spoke previously, Gordon, you had this nice kind of image of the salesperson with their little black book, you know, the guy who knows all the customers, he knows their sizes.
He's rolled out at certain times of the year to get in contact and drum up a bit of business.
Do you see kind of a digital variation on that in terms of, you know, even the clientele or the engaging with customers?
(26:21):
Yeah, I think most of the brands of ours that do that is all done through WhatsApp for whatever reason.
We have had some clients try and do it for a native app, but yeah, the ones that have done it most effectively.
And I always remember I worked with a really high-end sunglasses retailer and they had one person that just sat on WhatsApp and Facebook chatting to like...
(26:44):
That's a one-to-one and not a broadcast.
A very one-to-one, yeah, totally one-to-one.
And yeah, they had one customer that spent half a million a year on sunglasses and I couldn't believe it.
But yeah, essentially this person had almost like a target, but it was kind of half seen as like just giving a good experience.
But she pretty much had a sales target, to be fair, and she was very non-commercial.
(27:08):
But yeah, and I think, to be honest, a lot of the top fashion brands do that.
I'm pretty sure Burberry do the same.
They do a lot of their clientele via WhatsApp.
And yeah, it's designed to feel very personal.
A lot of it's more around kind of convenience and subtly telling a customer if you've got a new item that might be similar to previous preferences, all that kind of stuff.
(27:32):
And there's probably a CRM behind it, but it just has to feel very personal.
Do you see the generation of, let's say, a draft order where that person with a little black book would effectively put this season's look together for a VIP customer and send them the link to the checkout and say, here you go, this is what we've picked for you, we think this will really work.
(27:54):
Do you see that kind of approach?
I see a lot of these people using draft orders, but it's probably, I think the other thing is they'll do calls or they'll send lots of links and then they'll get opinions and then they'll send stuff and they'll return it, et cetera.
So yeah, I think draft orders are super useful for this and loads of our clients use it for exactly that.
(28:17):
The other thing that I would say that a few of our clients do, which is slightly off topic, but it's the same thing.
So I don't know, another big trend we've seen recently is like concierge delivery services and like last mile delivery services.
So our average client, top two cities would be London and New York, and a lot of our clients now use like a Harper concierge, a Quiver, a Toshie.
(28:41):
Like these services allow basically one hour delivery slots or like with Harper, they have like a qualified like concierge, I guess, like go into the house, talk through the styling options.
And I know they've got a lot of data around that kind of like doubling order value and like increasing retention metrics massively.
(29:03):
But that's another one along these lines.
We have a retailer in the room here, Louis Copeland, who is very well known for Louis Copeland himself arriving on the doorstep and handing over the ultimate in concierge.
But it's such a great marketing ploy as well.
Absolutely.
At that level, it's still very people heavy though.
(29:26):
You still have your person managing WhatsApp.
Now, it's totally worth doing if it's worth half a mil.
You can totally justify that cost.
But how would you see that?
Like, I suppose, not a watered down, but a scalable, automatable version of that, where you've maybe got 10,000 customers that you want to deliver something to.
(29:51):
Could you see that working or being implemented in the future?
Definitely.
So, yeah, I mean, we have loads of clients that do it.
It's more that it's just they've got something storing the value of the customer, be that their CRM or loyalty platform or Shopify or whatever else.
And then they've just got very specific CRM programs that are triggered based on a new benefit or they'll make sure that they send campaigns with a certain frequency so that they're kind of re-engaging these customers.
(30:22):
But the messaging is not promotional.
It's like entirely like convenience or service orientated.
But yeah, I think a lot of our clients have quite granular like VIP programs for CRM.
We saw a really nice demo from Gorgias of the Gorgias Convert, which Neil may talk about later on.
I'm not sure.
(30:48):
But it allows you then at scale to trigger, let's say, interactions with customers on the basis of what they're actually doing on the site.
So you can really, you know, they might be looking at a product, they might have gone switch between two or three products and you can start to engage with them at the point where you think that they're ready to convert and they might have some questions.
And just kind of a question I'm always curious about.
(31:10):
I know, Gordon, you have an opinion on this, but I always wonder about the value and just kind of slightly off top of extending your customer service hours and having people manning the customer service like until later in the evenings, you know, until nine or 10 o'clock at night.
Do you know businesses doing that and do you know whether or not they find it valuable?
To be honest, I'd say this is probably slightly outside of my wheelhouse.
(31:32):
We've definitely got clients that do it and, you know, that invest in out-of-hours services and there's a few companies that our clients have used, but I feel that I wouldn't know the tangible value if you see what I mean.
Gordon, do you have an opinion?
You might.
If people are shopping in the evening and your peak time is 7 p.m.
(31:53):
to maybe 10 p.m.
then you should be building your service proposition around being able to help them during that time, which is really where that comes from.
It's a bit more...
It's common sense that it's a bit more difficult to execute, but business doesn't always happen online between the hours of 9 and 5.30, Monday to Friday.
(32:15):
I think this is an interesting one because I think it depends on, I guess, the value, like the order value as well, because I would say a lot of our fashion clients would man live chat between peak hours UK and US, for example.
But I feel like some of the higher-volume brands I've worked with are now really trying to push AI on that side.
(32:38):
So maybe they'll still have resources available, but they're really trying to reduce the hours that go into it through Ciena or some of the other solutions out there.
We nearly got through a whole podcast without mentioning AI.
I was bursting to sneak in with this.
I saw a really mischievous presentation from a Data Insights guy from John Lewis one time, who kind of declared somewhat in a sexist manner, but it was like basically John Lewis figured out that 9:21 p.m.
(33:10):
was the time when their most valuable customer, a woman, would come onto the site.
And his point was like at 9:21 p.m.
if you see your partner or wife pick up her phone, you know, that's the time to distract her.
But I couldn't let us go without having a quick chat about your app, Census.
(33:31):
So you guys even got into the app building for Shopify, end of things there last year I think it was.
I heard some great things about the Feedback app.
Do you want to just?
Yeah, absolutely.
So yeah, it must have been maybe a couple of years ago we released the app.
So it's essentially a survey that sits on the order confirmation page that can ask different questions to different customers based on variables.
(33:55):
So the average implementation would probably have three questions.
The first one would be where did you first see or hear about the brand, which you then might push into your reporting tool or wherever else you want that data.
Second question would typically be more focused on the customer.
So it might be like what age range they're in.
(34:15):
It might be whether it's a gift or self purchase.
And those questions might then be pushed into your CRM system or your email platform.
And then on top of that, we'd then have like feedback questions.
So that would be designed to pull out like any friction points, issues with carrier options, like localization, all of that kind of stuff.
(34:35):
And then you would use that data to then, I guess, push things into your backlog or push it to your customer service team.
The one thing I would say is we introduced it more for the attribution side, but actually now most people are using it to get more insight into the customer and what other brands they buy, where else they buy the product, all that kind of stuff.
(34:57):
And then they push it into Klaviyo or Metria or whatever else and use it more from a marketing perspective.
I've noticed things like businesses, when a gift message is being chosen, for example, after the transaction has gone through and the order has been made, they say, we noticed you bought a gift today, was that for a birthday?
That sort of thing and then storing that information to help.
(35:20):
We actually haven't done that, but we should, because it can do that.
It's just that I've never seen a client do it.
Yeah, but I really like the...
Because just after the transaction is made, I think there's great opportunities for a couple of things.
I really feel when people are buying online, there is a bit of tension and they're trying to get...
It's a bit of unnatural tension when they're trying to get through the checkout and they're very focused on getting their order in some cases.
(35:43):
And then there is a natural release of tension once the order has gone through.
And people sometimes are willing and ready to offer additional information or also buy additional things.
It's really the time where you have that bit of remorse, where you're like, maybe I should have got that extra product.
Do you think things like that, like post-sale absence...
(36:06):
Yeah, I completely agree with you.
I think I've always said the order confirmation page is like the most underutilized page in EECOM.
And I think even looking at the survey, which averages like 25%, 30% completion rate, people are still engaged on that page.
And we have had clients that have done post-purchase recommendations.
(36:28):
The issue is usually more the kind of back office side, which hopefully your solution can help with.
But essentially, we have had clients that have added significant revenue, usually by attaching some level of promotion.
So if you've bought maybe a t-shirt offering a discount on the second one, or saying it's not too late to add the bundle items, etc.
(36:53):
But yeah, they definitely work.
And there's lots of data online around how important they can be.
A lot of the D2C brands did really well through COVID with those types of things.
I think it's so interesting.
Years ago, I remember thinking that e-commerce was very bizarre in a way where we were nearly setting up a clean, white room with a single product right in the middle on a podium and an exit sign, which is not at all how people deal with it, even after the sale.
(37:21):
You have the smile, thank you.
Would you like to send us a receipt and all that kind of thing?
I'm going to take a very quick opportunity.
I don't know if we have a roaming mic, but is anybody, seeing as we have an audience in front of us, does anybody have a question that they'd like to put to us up here?
Any brave souls?
I came out of left field, I was not expecting that, James.
(37:42):
We're in front of an audience.
Usually I pick on James Byrne in these situations, but I'm not going to do that today, James.
But is anybody have a quick question that they'd like to ask?
As long as it's easy.
Easy.
Very good.
We'll cut that out of the...
(38:03):
One thing I was going to say, so you talked about Gorgeous Convert, which obviously proactively communicates with a customer based on variables.
One thing we talked about before, that we're in the process of testing across a lot of clients, is, so your colleague talked about the notification icon, like Capturing Attention earlier, and I said about that being Solomon's example.
But one thing we're testing is the notification icon and the header, and basically using that to communicate with customers based on variables.
(38:31):
So a similar thing, but it's more like capturing the attention, and then if someone's been on the site before, you might show them products that they hadn't viewed.
You might, someone we work with, a fashion brand called the Frankie Sharp, they promote their latest store, new editorial content, and then new in this week.
Yeah, and basically that, if you do build in some of this first party data stuff, segmentation stuff, it is an opportunity to communicate with a customer based on what you know.
(38:59):
So if they've got something in the basket, you can communicate other items, any promotions that are relevant, any new products since their last visit.
I do think that's a really clever mechanism for communicating with a customer for both upselling and just generally getting them to do what you want.
Absolutely, and I love it because it's also kind of, it's native to how people are using the devices.
(39:22):
It is a little bit cross, you know, cross functional in some ways, but it kind of thinks a little bit outside the box while still being very obviously intuitive for a customer that's using the website.
And I really like those solutions.
That's Solomon, one again with the Wayfinder, I think is genius because it's what the customer is doing anyway and you're really helping them to understand what the product offering is on the site.
(39:45):
Yeah, I think some really good advice today and if I've been listening properly, my takeaways are like number one, build your customer account out.
Number two, think about how you collect first party data in a way that feels natural and intuitive.
Number three, build out a proposition that adds real value beyond points.
(40:08):
And then number four, try and personalize communications as they're going out and then add a bit of notification anxiety on top of it for customers to click on.
I love your summarizing, Gordon.
It's always great.
On that note, thanks a million, Paul.
It's been great to have you here.
We really appreciate you coming over today.
Give a round of applause to Paul, please.
(40:33):
You've been listening to Functional and Fabulous with Ger Keoghan and Gordon Newman.
If you'd like to know more about the podcast or about StudioFory9 and Omnichannel stories, please go to functionalandfabulous.ie.
The show was produced by Roger Overall.
This is Functional and Fabulous, the Omnichannel podcast where we unbox tales of online retail and digital transformation.
In this episode recorded live at the Laughter Lounge in Dublin at StudioForty9's Transformation Excellence in E-commerce Conference, Ger promotes a rival podcast.
(00:22):
Wait, no, that can't be right.
Paul co-hosts a podcast with James Gurd called Inside E-commerce.
I'm currently at 200.
In this episode, Gordon reviews some furniture.
They're very bouncy couches.
Our guest reviews Google Analytics.
But obviously GA4 is horrible and everyone hates using it.
(00:44):
Ger recites his latest poem.
A clean white room with a single product right in the middle on a podium and an exit sign.
It's not very good.
We'll cut that out.
Our guest provides the best clickbait quote ever.
They had one customer that spent half a million a year on sunglasses.
And Gordon talks about his favorite restaurants.
(01:06):
My takeaways are...
This episode of Functional and Fabulous is brought to you with pride by StudioForty9, retail e-commerce experts, omni-channel growth consultants, and cut through performance marketing specialists.
StudioForty9, where your digital retail success is built.
(01:26):
Good afternoon, everybody.
So you might be wondering what we're doing up here on couches, relaxing.
Relax, Gordon.
They're very bouncy couches.
So some of you might be aware of myself and Gordon
have a podcast called Functional and Fabulous.
It was started pretty much at this conference about two years ago when we had a bit of a fireside chat and we thought that we were so good at it, we'd start a podcast and unleash yet another podcast onto the world.
(02:01):
Because there aren't enough already.
Not enough about e-commerce.
So we had a live one last year at this conference.
And it's a real pleasure to kick off season two of Functional and Fabulous with a live podcast direct from the StudioForty9 Excellence in E-commerce Conference here in Dublin.
(02:22):
And I'm delighted to welcome Paul Rogers, who traveled over from London today to join us on stage and in the hot seat.
Paul is one of the UK's most trusted and expert thought leaders in e-commerce.
His opinions and thinking are sought out by tech vendors, e-commerce platforms and merchants alike.
And the company he co-founded, Vervaunt, works with an enviable who's who of global brands, including Doc Martens, which I'm wearing, in honor, Coz, which I'm not wearing, Stuzzi, Represent, APC, Timex, the Frankie Shop, Muji, Osprey, Fred Perry, Timex.
(03:00):
Honestly, the list goes on and on.
In Ireland, he's worked with our own iconic sports brand, O'Neill's.
I don't know, did you make it yet, too, in all Ireland?
No, I haven't.
I spent a lot of time in Strabane.
And Paul co-hosts a podcast with James Gurd called Inside Ecommerce, currently at 230 odd episodes.
(03:23):
It deals with e-commerce strategy, customer experience and technology.
And he also hosts his own conference each year in London called Pulse, which is on at the end of May, and which I can highly recommend to anybody in the audience looking for a good e-commerce conference.
Paul, that's an awful lot.
It's great to have you here today.
Yeah, great.
Thanks so much for inviting me over as well.
I'm super impressed by this event.
(03:44):
And yeah, it's great.
So you're very welcome to the podcast, Paul.
And that was like a veritable who's who of the high street plus one of the longest intros I think we've ever had to do.
You're very welcome.
So Paul, today's conference theme is Transformation Through Clienteling.
I guess that's probably not a very well known term.
(04:04):
What do you think of when we use that term?
Yeah, it's interesting because I guess we obviously caught up last week about this talk.
And I said that I think we probably had slightly different definitions of clienteling.
So I would typically associate it more with the kind of luxury brands that we work with who maybe do more kind of personal one-to-one level kind of client relationship management and kind of use that mechanism to try and generate more income from those customers who might be worth upwards of 100k a year in some cases with some of our clients.
(04:44):
So yeah, I would maybe look at it more as kind of like a very personal relationship experience, I guess.
And it seems to me that there's a resurgence in people working on loyalty offerings in the last little while.
Would you agree with that?
Yeah, definitely.
And I think, and again, this comes back to that same discussion.
(05:05):
I think I would say it's not just loyalty.
So our average client is maybe more of a premium fashion brand.
And I think we'll come on to first buy data later.
And I think it will be a big topic for this discussion.
But I think there's a lot more kind of shifting towards general kind of membership.
And that may be being like the foundation of a first party data strategy, but also like community.
(05:28):
And then also a lot more kind of VIP that's more service orientated, and maybe a little bit more kind of surprise and delight focused, rather than like monetary points, that kind of stuff.
So really about moving beyond the idea of loyalty points.
Yeah, exactly.
And I still think, you know, you raise the point, because I think sometimes I'm a bit alien to like the rest of the world, where we do work with a lot of these brands.
(05:51):
And I do think, you know, points work and, you know, having these kind of tiered programs, they do work.
And people want to move between the tiers.
People want the rewards off the back of these programs.
But equally, I think if, you know, your business is a brand and, you know, your biggest selling point is the brand and, you know, the aesthetic and the way that you kind of communicate and position yourself.
(06:15):
Yeah, I think that's where it's more about trying to apply the same principles.
But being less about discounting and, you know, monetary benefit, if that makes sense.
Yeah, I think anybody that's had to deal with their CFO at any point is, loyalty points is just giving away money, I think.
We probably all heard that at some point.
(06:35):
But what I'd be really interested if we could explore is, how can we take some of these ideas from luxury and apply them to different verticals?
Be that pet food, be that health and wellness.
And what ideas can we take from an industry that's traditionally really, really good at doing this?
(06:58):
And how can we start to apply those to other industries or other verticals and apply them digitally?
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, to be honest, I just look at it as I think some of the brands are forced to be a bit more creative because they don't have the luxury of being able to like, yeah, I guess discount or give away kind of store credit or whatever else.
(07:22):
So, yeah, I think a lot of the principles are probably more just about marketing.
And, you know, we've had clients that have done things like they've introduced a resale program that's only available to people that have kind of got to a certain threshold or people that have kind of created bespoke products and you can only buy them if you've spent enough money or et cetera.
(07:44):
Or we've had, I worked with a glasses retailer that printed like lots of like high demand local art on the whatever you call the glasses cleaner things.
And you'd only get them again if you went into the store and you know you're a kind of loyal customer.
And they're just some examples like lots of people do events.
We work at Represent.
(08:04):
They do lots of cool stuff for their VIPs offline.
So yeah, I think it's just taking that and yeah, trying to essentially create like exclusivity alongside some of the financial stuff for me and maybe more like brand focused comms alongside it.
So that's that's quite a lot.
So there's tons of ideas there.
(08:24):
I think like you've just gone.
I think you've just given everybody like eight or ten ideas just right off the cuff.
So if you're saying listening to this and you're thinking I've got to do something with loyalty and the CFO is going to say, no, you can't do points.
Where would you start?
What would be like what would be the advice that you would give to people of like, OK, I want to do this.
(08:46):
But what's the starting point?
Absolutely.
So I think this has been touched on in a number of the talks this morning.
I've been really impressed with the content from your team in particular.
And I think I've tried not to talk about it intentionally so far, but I think we would naturally come on to it with this topic.
So I think the way the world's going, everyone is trying to capture as much first party data as possible.
(09:10):
And also with all of the privacy changes, there's a lot of benefits from a tracking perspective, amongst other things, from a customer building an account and having a logged in experience so that you can track against a customer.
And also you can do more kind of within the theme and whatever else.
So I think the first thing for me that loads of our clients are doing right now, and it's by far the number one item on all of the roadmaps that we have, is basically building a proper account proposition.
(09:43):
And I can't remember the name of the brand that was used with your Epic solution earlier, but that's a really good example.
And another one that I use regularly is Solomon, the footwear brand.
And if you go on their site, they've got the notification icon, which was also cited.
And then they've built what is essentially a loyalty program, but the foundation level is just an account, essentially.
(10:05):
And you get free shipping and free returns as a result of building an account.
And then as part of that process, they're capturing more data, so things like gender, interest, et cetera.
And then that will all be pushed into a CRM or a CDP.
And Jay Lindbergh is another really good example, and they capture things like sizing as well.
(10:26):
And then the next phase could then be to surface that on-site as you're shopping, as you're presenting product to the customer, et cetera.
But essentially, building an account, you have to have an account in almost all instances and in Shopify in order to opt into a loyalty program.
So I think it's an app and obviously you have the first party data benefit and the tracking benefits.
(10:49):
I think it's a no-brainer to really push that new account proposition, new account experience and try and increase the percentage of users that essentially you know who they are and you know what they're doing.
And then also it gives you an opportunity to present different options through the experience and just collect more and more data and know as much as you need to around your customers.
(11:12):
Yeah, I love the example on the Solomon website, where the wayfinders are also being used to collect information, almost like a quiz, but it's part of a very natural progression where you're being asked what kind of shoe are you interested in and you choose the type of shoe and then you choose, is it going to be a shoe or a booze and so on.
And it's capturing that information and then using that to surface sizing and correct sizes and so on through the rest of the experience.
(11:38):
Exactly.
And I think the thing that I like about that is it's just in context within a core journey, whereas particularly in cosmetics and beauty, you get a lot of isolated quiz experiences and they work really well and you can capture great data.
It's a great mechanism for getting an email address or an account board or whatever else, but I think this is more natural.
(12:00):
And if you're paying for traffic, you don't want the friction of pushing people through an account, you know, there's every chance they might abandon, etc.
Or through that experience.
So yeah, I really like that as well.
And Interior defines another really good example where if you go through any non-purchase conversions, so if you go and request a brochure or, you know, set up like an interior, what do you call it, interior?
(12:27):
Like basically a consultation, yeah.
It asks you different questions.
It will ask you like initially it will be like what about the project and then it will ask you about like the scope of like what products you might be interested in.
And all of that again is just to push the data into the CRM or CDP.
And I personally think nowadays like most brands should be doing this with interest in sizing just because you're going to be in a much better position from a CRM perspective and on-site perspective.
(12:57):
I think nowadays it's easier, more easier than ever, to capture that sort of information.
In Shopify now with the meta-fields on customer profiles, you can capture enormous amounts of different types of information and get really detailed and collected as the customer goes along in a more subtle way.
I think Shopify is also making it incredibly easy to get customers to log in.
(13:21):
The new customer account section is basically a one-time passcode.
All you need is your email address.
All of your orders are already collected together.
Where do you see that kind of customer account area for Shopify?
Where do you see that going?
Yeah, I think, I mean, my view on Shopify overall, so I'm like, I'd say our company is essentially platform agnostic, but because of the nature of the brand we work with, we're very Shopify heavy.
(13:45):
And over the last year, over the last kind of 10 years, I've done a lot of like platform valuation stuff, but I've always been super pro Shopify.
And I think overall, their like vision, where they're going is, no one's close to them in terms of what they're trying to achieve and where they sit in the market.
They're almost like a windows or an operating system now.
(14:05):
But I think they're in a very good position to make some big moves.
And I think one of the big moves will be essentially them getting more first party data and them owning the account in a similar way to shop pay.
So I think there'll be more things like that in the Shopify ecosystem.
And I think it will benefit the end consumer because, you know, if you're logged in on one Shopify account, you'll be logged in on another or at least you'll get the prompt.
(14:31):
Or at least there'll be some level of like, yeah, mechanism there that will support the customer, but also Shopify.
Yeah, so I think that's kind of where I see it going.
It would be great if they stepped in as the platform provider that helps retailers fix the decoculus first-party data conundrum.
(14:55):
And I think we all need some help with that because it's quite complex to navigate when you think about all of the other things that are on a head of e-commerce or an e-commerce director or an e-commerce manager's place where they're dealing with everything from operations through to marketing.
So I would love to see that at Shopify listening.
(15:17):
I think they're naturally going that way anyway.
And I also think that all of the competitors that I speak to at Shopify, they're focusing on the little feature that they have available that Shopify doesn't or the fact that they're a bit more flexible when it comes to payments.
But realistically, Shopify is slowly becoming top five first party data owner in the world for commerce.
(15:41):
And they're offering, if you've got pause and social checkout and obviously checkout and whatever other channel you've got through Shopify, you have already built a true unified view of the customer and no one else is providing that.
And I think there are leaps and bounds ahead of everyone else from a data perspective.
(16:03):
I think that's a really interesting thing to just highlight.
And sometimes we're in the weeds when we're operating e-commerce sites.
And just to step away for a little bit and have a look at where it's going, the amount of data that Shopify has also makes available to retailers.
I've regularly shown retailers the customer segmentation options that are available in the back end of Shopify.
(16:28):
And it's fascinating to see what you can pull as information out of those platforms.
But you've mentioned unified commerce.
And I guess it's an interesting thing.
I'm not sure how many people have heard of the term unified commerce yet.
Yeah, so the Shopify people have heard about it.
The people who are selling it.
(16:48):
But do you want to just take us through that a little bit?
Because it's interesting to just pause on that for a moment as we're talking about all of these.
Yeah, so I think it was Gartner that initially coined the term, then Shopify used it a lot.
But essentially, it's just having a unified view of the customer and your data.
I think for a long time, it was an OV, or not for a long time, for a short time, it's been a bit of a buzzword.
(17:14):
And a lot of kind of combined technologies will go out to market and offer that.
But Shopify does genuinely offer that with no code, essentially.
And I think you talked about segmentation.
And I think the other data that will be built up within Shopify now is they're starting to build browsing into that as well, natively, which will be massive.
(17:37):
And last year, particularly Q1, Q2 last year, a lot of our bigger clients were saying, we need a CDP, we need it urgently.
And they didn't really need a CDP.
But they were saying they did.
Or at least they thought they did.
And now with Shopify, you're not far off not needing a CDP.
And actually the role of a lot of the other systems around Shopify is going to...
(17:59):
It's an interesting thing because we were being asked in the last, let's say half a year or two a year, to start pushing data from outside of Shopify into Shopify.
So pause data, ERP data, and pushing that into Shopify because it's nearly the most useful place to have that.
And when you think about that unified e-commerce or unified commerce idea, it's nearly that one single source of truth for all of your data that is updated in real time.
(18:24):
It is the hub that it gathers in all of the rest of the information.
And you can nearly see that, let's say, positioning, I guess, of Shopify in that space.
A hundred percent.
And I think that's something that they've obviously been working on for a long time, but has really come to fruition recently.
And I think the other thing, right now, it's so easy to get data out of Shopify.
(18:47):
Very few other systems in the world are as easy to get data out of than Shopify.
So all of our team will use Supermetrics.
We use various other low-code tools or even just pull data out of the APIs themselves.
And I think, yeah, that's just kind of driving more people to put their data in Shopify.
(19:07):
I think the other big thing that is like a bit of an elephant in the room, not that many people are talking about, because maybe they don't know if it's the right thing to do.
But obviously GA4 is horrible and everyone hates using it.
And I think Shopify have like gradually improved their like traffic reporting, their marketing reporting, et cetera.
(19:29):
And to be honest, I think a lot of our customers now are actually using Shopify's analytics instead of GA4 in like 50, 60, 70 percent of like reports and data they actually need.
And I think if that gets stronger as well, again, it's just like more data for Shopify, obviously.
But also they're just creating a much broader reason to use Shopify.
(19:50):
So you just need the data in the morning really quickly.
You just need your reports.
You need to be able to read your reports quickly.
You need your top level metrics.
Grab those out of Shopify.
You don't need to go GA and spend the rest of the day dealing with meta.
I really saw about meta at the moment.
(20:12):
To go back to the loyalty side of things and that kind of community building, how important do you think it is to approach that with a joined up thinking attitude where you brand the loyalty that you're going to do or the proposition you have around your customers and community?
I think it's massive.
(20:32):
I think it's obviously a much more...
It's something that a customer can buy into more.
It's something that will resonate more with them.
I think a lot of the best examples of loyalty programs have its own brand.
I've been using a lot as an example recently just because they're quite present at the moment.
A lot of people talk about their community, but they've got prestige.
(20:58):
So many of their customers will talk about prestige without even mentioning represent.
I think that goes a long way.
But to be honest, because of this first party data shift, that membership route I mentioned as well, both loyalty and the membership piece, all the biggest brands in the world are doing right now.
You look at Nike, you look at Adidas, you've got Adi Club, I forgot what the Nike one's called.
(21:21):
Yeah, Solomon is S+.
I think it's interesting.
It's nearly like a brand within a brand out on its own in its own right.
You know, some of the nice ones that come to mind are the Elf Beauty Squad.
And we talked with an Irish retailer one time who mentioned that when they had a loyalty program, they just called it The Loyalty Program, nobody used it.
(21:42):
And then they renamed it The A-List, and then people started using it, and you know, that kind of a thing.
And as a kind of, let's say, a next logical extension, can you talk to us a little bit about mobile apps and how you see those?
We get asked quite regularly, and even this morning, somebody in the room here was talking about a mobile app they're about to develop.
(22:05):
I always feel like it's not enough to have just your catalogue in an app.
You have to have an angle.
Can you talk to us a little bit about that?
Yeah, completely agree.
I think if you were to go down the route, essentially, because within Shopify, it's very easy to introduce a native app.
There's a few different vendors that have reduced the barrier to entry, and they can inherit bits of your theme and launch something super quickly.
(22:31):
But I think it's a short-term solution.
I think it's an additional engagement point, maybe short-term, but I personally think it kind of cheapens your brand a bit because it's very transactional.
There's no real reason for that customer to engage.
You're just kind of sending the same messages via different channels, whereas I think...
So I feel like two, three years ago, all of our clients were looking at native apps, and then it died off, and then this year it's been massive.
(22:59):
So a lot of our biggest clients have recently released apps, and those that haven't are working on it now.
And I think we always say you have to have a reason to go to the app that isn't transactional, and pretty much all of our clients are building that in.
So loyalty is part of it.
So for some of our clients, the loyalty program will be managed within the app, and a lot of the content that's built into that will be done by the app.
(23:27):
We've got a client that's doing resale only through the app.
So they've got a bit of a cult following, and they did resale once, and they didn't manage it very well, so they're kind of doing it through the app and then gradually releasing product through the tiers so they can control it.
We've got a client that does client telling through the app, so they do...
(23:50):
So that's Totem.
So they do all of their kind of store, like VIP appointments, events, all of the multi-channel stuff through the app, and that's a really nice way to do it.
We've had clients do advanced sizing stuff through the app, but yeah, from my perspective, I personally think if you do a native app, you have to invest in something that engages the customer semi-regularly and gives them a reason to have that native app experience, be that editorial, loyalty, a game, whatever, something that isn't transactional.
(24:24):
So if an app is on your list, the first question is why?
Exactly.
Why are you going to do this over and above?
And then the next question is what are those things and what's the priority order you're going to put them in?
One other question is, you know, does it work?
Do you think...
Yeah.
Because obviously an app is expensive to produce and you're putting a lot of thought and effort and time into bringing it to fruition.
(24:47):
Do you see it working for people?
Yeah, definitely.
And I think, yeah, all of our clients have kind of focused on the data and it's pretty much always worked, I think.
The ones that haven't have always been transactional.
And even then, there is an argument that it works just in terms of push notifications being like a real high engagement channel and, you know, people still being able to be bought back by the app.
(25:10):
Yeah, it might not be incremental, but it could be a better experience and it could convert better, etc.
But yeah, so Represent is a really good example.
They released their app a little while ago, so maybe like three, four months ago, and it's been, yeah, they've seen decent incremental growth.
I was talking to Liverpool Football Club recently.
They were talking about their app that's now transactional, and they've seen incremental benefit.
(25:34):
And yeah, everyone that I've spoke to that has done it properly and, like you say, had a reason beyond just, yeah, transacting has pretty much always found it to be an effective channel for re-engaging customers.
But I do think it is a retention channel or a re-engagement channel, not a new customer acquisition channel.
(25:57):
When we spoke previously, Gordon, you had this nice kind of image of the salesperson with their little black book, you know, the guy who knows all the customers, he knows their sizes.
He's rolled out at certain times of the year to get in contact and drum up a bit of business.
Do you see kind of a digital variation on that in terms of, you know, even the clientele or the engaging with customers?
(26:21):
Yeah, I think most of the brands of ours that do that is all done through WhatsApp for whatever reason.
We have had some clients try and do it for a native app, but yeah, the ones that have done it most effectively.
And I always remember I worked with a really high-end sunglasses retailer and they had one person that just sat on WhatsApp and Facebook chatting to like...
(26:44):
That's a one-to-one and not a broadcast.
A very one-to-one, yeah, totally one-to-one.
And yeah, they had one customer that spent half a million a year on sunglasses and I couldn't believe it.
But yeah, essentially this person had almost like a target, but it was kind of half seen as like just giving a good experience.
But she pretty much had a sales target, to be fair, and she was very non-commercial.
(27:08):
But yeah, and I think, to be honest, a lot of the top fashion brands do that.
I'm pretty sure Burberry do the same.
They do a lot of their clientele via WhatsApp.
And yeah, it's designed to feel very personal.
A lot of it's more around kind of convenience and subtly telling a customer if you've got a new item that might be similar to previous preferences, all that kind of stuff.
(27:32):
And there's probably a CRM behind it, but it just has to feel very personal.
Do you see the generation of, let's say, a draft order where that person with a little black book would effectively put this season's look together for a VIP customer and send them the link to the checkout and say, here you go, this is what we've picked for you, we think this will really work.
(27:54):
Do you see that kind of approach?
I see a lot of these people using draft orders, but it's probably, I think the other thing is they'll do calls or they'll send lots of links and then they'll get opinions and then they'll send stuff and they'll return it, et cetera.
So yeah, I think draft orders are super useful for this and loads of our clients use it for exactly that.
(28:17):
The other thing that I would say that a few of our clients do, which is slightly off topic, but it's the same thing.
So I don't know, another big trend we've seen recently is like concierge delivery services and like last mile delivery services.
So our average client, top two cities would be London and New York, and a lot of our clients now use like a Harper concierge, a Quiver, a Toshie.
(28:41):
Like these services allow basically one hour delivery slots or like with Harper, they have like a qualified like concierge, I guess, like go into the house, talk through the styling options.
And I know they've got a lot of data around that kind of like doubling order value and like increasing retention metrics massively.
(29:03):
But that's another one along these lines.
We have a retailer in the room here, Louis Copeland, who is very well known for Louis Copeland himself arriving on the doorstep and handing over the ultimate in concierge.
But it's such a great marketing ploy as well.
Absolutely.
At that level, it's still very people heavy though.
(29:26):
You still have your person managing WhatsApp.
Now, it's totally worth doing if it's worth half a mil.
You can totally justify that cost.
But how would you see that?
Like, I suppose, not a watered down, but a scalable, automatable version of that, where you've maybe got 10,000 customers that you want to deliver something to.
(29:51):
Could you see that working or being implemented in the future?
Definitely.
So, yeah, I mean, we have loads of clients that do it.
It's more that it's just they've got something storing the value of the customer, be that their CRM or loyalty platform or Shopify or whatever else.
And then they've just got very specific CRM programs that are triggered based on a new benefit or they'll make sure that they send campaigns with a certain frequency so that they're kind of re-engaging these customers.
(30:22):
But the messaging is not promotional.
It's like entirely like convenience or service orientated.
But yeah, I think a lot of our clients have quite granular like VIP programs for CRM.
We saw a really nice demo from Gorgias of the Gorgias Convert, which Neil may talk about later on.
I'm not sure.
(30:48):
But it allows you then at scale to trigger, let's say, interactions with customers on the basis of what they're actually doing on the site.
So you can really, you know, they might be looking at a product, they might have gone switch between two or three products and you can start to engage with them at the point where you think that they're ready to convert and they might have some questions.
And just kind of a question I'm always curious about.
(31:10):
I know, Gordon, you have an opinion on this, but I always wonder about the value and just kind of slightly off top of extending your customer service hours and having people manning the customer service like until later in the evenings, you know, until nine or 10 o'clock at night.
Do you know businesses doing that and do you know whether or not they find it valuable?
To be honest, I'd say this is probably slightly outside of my wheelhouse.
(31:32):
We've definitely got clients that do it and, you know, that invest in out-of-hours services and there's a few companies that our clients have used, but I feel that I wouldn't know the tangible value if you see what I mean.
Gordon, do you have an opinion?
You might.
If people are shopping in the evening and your peak time is 7 p.m.
(31:53):
to maybe 10 p.m.
then you should be building your service proposition around being able to help them during that time, which is really where that comes from.
It's a bit more...
It's common sense that it's a bit more difficult to execute, but business doesn't always happen online between the hours of 9 and 5.30, Monday to Friday.
(32:15):
I think this is an interesting one because I think it depends on, I guess, the value, like the order value as well, because I would say a lot of our fashion clients would man live chat between peak hours UK and US, for example.
But I feel like some of the higher-volume brands I've worked with are now really trying to push AI on that side.
(32:38):
So maybe they'll still have resources available, but they're really trying to reduce the hours that go into it through Ciena or some of the other solutions out there.
We nearly got through a whole podcast without mentioning AI.
I was bursting to sneak in with this.
I saw a really mischievous presentation from a Data Insights guy from John Lewis one time, who kind of declared somewhat in a sexist manner, but it was like basically John Lewis figured out that 9:21 p.m.
(33:10):
was the time when their most valuable customer, a woman, would come onto the site.
And his point was like at 9:21 p.m.
if you see your partner or wife pick up her phone, you know, that's the time to distract her.
But I couldn't let us go without having a quick chat about your app, Census.
(33:31):
So you guys even got into the app building for Shopify, end of things there last year I think it was.
I heard some great things about the Feedback app.
Do you want to just?
Yeah, absolutely.
So yeah, it must have been maybe a couple of years ago we released the app.
So it's essentially a survey that sits on the order confirmation page that can ask different questions to different customers based on variables.
(33:55):
So the average implementation would probably have three questions.
The first one would be where did you first see or hear about the brand, which you then might push into your reporting tool or wherever else you want that data.
Second question would typically be more focused on the customer.
So it might be like what age range they're in.
(34:15):
It might be whether it's a gift or self purchase.
And those questions might then be pushed into your CRM system or your email platform.
And then on top of that, we'd then have like feedback questions.
So that would be designed to pull out like any friction points, issues with carrier options, like localization, all of that kind of stuff.
(34:35):
And then you would use that data to then, I guess, push things into your backlog or push it to your customer service team.
The one thing I would say is we introduced it more for the attribution side, but actually now most people are using it to get more insight into the customer and what other brands they buy, where else they buy the product, all that kind of stuff.
(34:57):
And then they push it into Klaviyo or Metria or whatever else and use it more from a marketing perspective.
I've noticed things like businesses, when a gift message is being chosen, for example, after the transaction has gone through and the order has been made, they say, we noticed you bought a gift today, was that for a birthday?
That sort of thing and then storing that information to help.
(35:20):
We actually haven't done that, but we should, because it can do that.
It's just that I've never seen a client do it.
Yeah, but I really like the...
Because just after the transaction is made, I think there's great opportunities for a couple of things.
I really feel when people are buying online, there is a bit of tension and they're trying to get...
It's a bit of unnatural tension when they're trying to get through the checkout and they're very focused on getting their order in some cases.
(35:43):
And then there is a natural release of tension once the order has gone through.
And people sometimes are willing and ready to offer additional information or also buy additional things.
It's really the time where you have that bit of remorse, where you're like, maybe I should have got that extra product.
Do you think things like that, like post-sale absence...
(36:06):
Yeah, I completely agree with you.
I think I've always said the order confirmation page is like the most underutilized page in EECOM.
And I think even looking at the survey, which averages like 25%, 30% completion rate, people are still engaged on that page.
And we have had clients that have done post-purchase recommendations.
(36:28):
The issue is usually more the kind of back office side, which hopefully your solution can help with.
But essentially, we have had clients that have added significant revenue, usually by attaching some level of promotion.
So if you've bought maybe a t-shirt offering a discount on the second one, or saying it's not too late to add the bundle items, etc.
(36:53):
But yeah, they definitely work.
And there's lots of data online around how important they can be.
A lot of the D2C brands did really well through COVID with those types of things.
I think it's so interesting.
Years ago, I remember thinking that e-commerce was very bizarre in a way where we were nearly setting up a clean, white room with a single product right in the middle on a podium and an exit sign, which is not at all how people deal with it, even after the sale.
(37:21):
You have the smile, thank you.
Would you like to send us a receipt and all that kind of thing?
I'm going to take a very quick opportunity.
I don't know if we have a roaming mic, but is anybody, seeing as we have an audience in front of us, does anybody have a question that they'd like to put to us up here?
Any brave souls?
I came out of left field, I was not expecting that, James.
(37:42):
We're in front of an audience.
Usually I pick on James Byrne in these situations, but I'm not going to do that today, James.
But is anybody have a quick question that they'd like to ask?
As long as it's easy.
Easy.
Very good.
We'll cut that out of the...
(38:03):
One thing I was going to say, so you talked about Gorgeous Convert, which obviously proactively communicates with a customer based on variables.
One thing we talked about before, that we're in the process of testing across a lot of clients, is, so your colleague talked about the notification icon, like Capturing Attention earlier, and I said about that being Solomon's example.
But one thing we're testing is the notification icon and the header, and basically using that to communicate with customers based on variables.
(38:31):
So a similar thing, but it's more like capturing the attention, and then if someone's been on the site before, you might show them products that they hadn't viewed.
You might, someone we work with, a fashion brand called the Frankie Sharp, they promote their latest store, new editorial content, and then new in this week.
Yeah, and basically that, if you do build in some of this first party data stuff, segmentation stuff, it is an opportunity to communicate with a customer based on what you know.
(38:59):
So if they've got something in the basket, you can communicate other items, any promotions that are relevant, any new products since their last visit.
I do think that's a really clever mechanism for communicating with a customer for both upselling and just generally getting them to do what you want.
Absolutely, and I love it because it's also kind of, it's native to how people are using the devices.
(39:22):
It is a little bit cross, you know, cross functional in some ways, but it kind of thinks a little bit outside the box while still being very obviously intuitive for a customer that's using the website.
And I really like those solutions.
That's Solomon, one again with the Wayfinder, I think is genius because it's what the customer is doing anyway and you're really helping them to understand what the product offering is on the site.
(39:45):
Yeah, I think some really good advice today and if I've been listening properly, my takeaways are like number one, build your customer account out.
Number two, think about how you collect first party data in a way that feels natural and intuitive.
Number three, build out a proposition that adds real value beyond points.
(40:08):
And then number four, try and personalize communications as they're going out and then add a bit of notification anxiety on top of it for customers to click on.
I love your summarizing, Gordon.
It's always great.
On that note, thanks a million, Paul.
It's been great to have you here.
We really appreciate you coming over today.
Give a round of applause to Paul, please.
(40:33):
You've been listening to Functional and Fabulous with Ger Keoghan and Gordon Newman.
If you'd like to know more about the podcast or about StudioFory9 and Omnichannel stories, please go to functionalandfabulous.ie.
The show was produced by Roger Overall.
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