Bonus Episode: Malcolm X

This week we look at Spike Lee’s biographical epic masterpiece MALCOLM X (1992) starring Denzel Washington in a film that attracted controversy, much like the man whose life story it told.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
you
Hello and welcome to Get Me Another, a podcast where we explore those movies that followedin the wake of blockbuster hits and attempted to replicate their success.
My name is Chris Ayanakone and with me are my co-hosts Rob Lemorgis and Justin Beam.

(00:25):
Glad to be here, gentlemen.
Glad to be here with both of you guys.
In our last episode, we took a look at Spike Lee's breakthrough film, Do the Right Thing,a movie that ends with quotations from civil rights leaders
Martin Luther King Jr.
and Malcolm X.
Today, we'll be exploring another film by Spike Lee which delves into the subject of racein America, this time in the form of a sprawling biopic of one of those two men.

(00:54):
This is 1992's Malcolm X.
Do you know where you came from?
What's your name?
Malcolm Liddle.
No.
That's the name of the slave masters who own your family.
You don't even know who you are.
Who are you?

(01:16):
Say, Roseland.
Roseland!
A thief.
Ready to tackle the streets?
Yeah, I'm ready.

(01:36):
Let him come.
He was loved, respected, convicted.
Stay your number, little one.
I forgot.
was a prisoner who set himself free.
A Muslim must be striking me upright.

(01:57):
I will not touch the white man's drugs, his liquor, his women.
So that those in the darkness can see the power of the light.
I will not lie, cheat or steal.
I believe...
we remain faithful.
Yes.
He was a follower.
became a leader.

(02:18):
You're not an American.
We didn't land on Plymouth Rock.
Plymouth Rock landed on us.
He brought honor to disobedience.
I you look outside that window.
You've been laying down and bowing down for 400 years.
satisfied

(02:43):
That's true.
power for you to have.
And a voice to a people who long to be heard.
No, you're saying I'm anti-whine.
I'm sorry, Betty.
I haven't been the best.

(03:03):
Are you out of mind?
No, sir.
Award winner Denzel Washington's most electrifying performance.
Director Spike Lee's most powerful film.

(03:31):
When people describe a film as epic, I think that, for me, I think of one of two things.
There are movies that are epic in physical scale, often involving battles or armies, thechariot race in Ban Hur, that kind of thing.
But then there are also movies that are epics of ideas, where characters undergo adramatic emotional and psychological journey, often over a number of years,

(04:01):
that are so profound, they can only be described as epic.
And I think that Malcolm X fits into this latter category.
I totally agree with that.
The scope and scale of this man's life and most of it taking place geographically, youknow, in the Northeast, there are, there are bits elsewhere, but a lot of it is chiefly at

(04:21):
what Massachusetts, Boston, and of course New York Harlem.
And, this thing I also want to mention, for the time period was unique in that the runtimes about three hours and 20 minutes where we're only two years.
beyond Waterworld needing to only be about two hours as a blockbuster hit.

(04:44):
this is back when being a three hour and 20 minute movie meant something and often meantepic.
Well, there was a lot of conflict between Spike Lee and Warner Brothers over the length ofthe film.
Warner Brothers insisted that it be no longer than two hours and 15 minutes.
And there was actually a shutdown in post-production, which only ended when a number ofprominent African-American filmmakers and artists contributed financially to the film in

(05:13):
order to allow Spike Lee to release his version of it.
But here's the other thing, and I was gonna get into this a little later, but I should sayit right out, the pacing on this movie is incredible.
Like, yeah, it's three and a half hours long, but it is, for a film of this length, thepacing is amazing.
You look up and it's like, my God, we're already an hour into this movie, how did thathappen?

(05:37):
It's seven samurai-esque in that regard.
Yeah, I mean, this thing, I'm sure someone could jam it into a, you know, three actHollywood structure, but it's funny, I just want to bring up the old film crit Hulk
screenwriting book.
He talks a little bit about Malcolm X and I think he said he probably broke it down intonine different acts.

(06:03):
But regardless of where you slice those, it does seem to have discrete acts.
that are almost a mini complete story of Malcolm's life in their little own compartment.
So in a weird way, this is like, it can often play like a shrunken series on Malcolm'slife.

(06:26):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And in a very good way.
And I think that's why it keeps feeling fresh because a lot of times you might have acentral question set up at the beginning of a three hour film and then you're waiting to
answer it till the end.
This movie keeps asking all of these sub questions along the way.
Yeah.
And they're not, they are not like, Oh, we have to go get the trinket.

(06:48):
They are critical questions about humanity and life.
Uh, and yeah, so it's just, it, it, it's a great pacing.
You will not feel the length.
And it's a good point about the structure, but it also has a very clear and sort classicalthree act structure as well.
Like you have Malcolm's early life, everything leading up to him going to prison.

(07:09):
You have his conversion in prison and then his life as part of the nation of Islam, whichis the middle portion, and then his eventual disassociation from that.
so even you could look at it a couple of different ways.
think
I think the idea of sort of nine sort short films is really interesting, but it also doeshave a fairly clean three act structure that way.

(07:31):
think a big part of it too is Denzel Washington.
Yeah.
I mean, he is absolutely magnificent in this film and the character is not traditional inany sense.
The life that he lived, it really pushed him to in so many awful ways in his youth.

(07:52):
all of his experiences and all of that.
And so one of the most remarkable things I think that Denzel does here, and this is partof what keeps us so engaged as an audience, is that the characters is unpredictable like
the story.
There's no way to guess what's gonna be happening next, but the way he turns on a dime,the way that he channels this intensity that Malcolm had, I think is just a fascinating

(08:19):
draw.
So it keeps pulling you along.
think it's his performance that really is the tether to the audience throughout the entirething.
And it's such, is the entire spectrum of emotion when you zoom out at the end of all of itand think about all that he experienced and went through and how Denzel presents that it's

(08:40):
his performance.
That is the glue here for sure.
And that seems like an obvious thing to say, but that's not always the case with a leadingactor or actress, but here.
He absolutely is magnetic.
Denzel Washington is so effective in the role of Malcolm X that you will sincerely believethat each stage of his evolution, and he goes through, again, a journey.

(09:03):
I'm gonna keep coming back to that word, because that is what this character undergoes.
But you believe that each stage of that evolution could be the ultimate one, because he isso very effective in everything he does.
Honestly, I'll say it later, but I'll say it now.
I don't know if you could have made this movie without Denzel Washington.

(09:25):
He is so iconic in this role.
It's one of those things where it almost fuses the historical personage and the actorwhere there's almost no line between them.
I bet he would say the same thing.
mean, how monumental this was for his career.
yeah.
And what an honor he's always spoken of this role.

(09:48):
He looks back at it with such rich reverence.
And so, I he doesn't just embody Malcolm X.
He was on his own mission in this, and he was also being tested and testing himself.
And so in a way, it is a joint journey between the two of them.
I think that's a great point, Chris.
It's interesting.
This wasn't the first time that Denzel Washington played Malcolm X.

(10:12):
He previously played the role.
in a 1981 stage play called When the Chickens Come Home to Roos, which focused exclusivelyon the relationship between Malcolm and Nation of Islam leader Elijah Muhammad.
And Spike Lee said he had seen that play when it was running in New York City and that waspart of it.

(10:34):
It's interesting, we'll get into the background of in a minute, but Spike Lee actuallydidn't cast Denzel Washington, although he was very happy that sort of Denzel came along
with the.
Well, I might jump the gun, but because I think I know the story.
I think famously this movie was going to be made without Spike Lee as a director withsomeone very different.

(10:56):
A good director.
Norman Jewison, a terrific director of In the Heat of the Night and a great career and whohad worked with Denzel on A Soldier's
Yeah, but I think deservedly so.
And in a time in an era where people were generally never thinking about this, Spike Leesaid, no, Malcolm X's biopic and defining Hollywood story is not going to be made by a

(11:22):
white guy.
Yeah, well.
due respect to Norman Jewison, who- Self stepped aside.
no, there was not a fight or anything.
And because you talk, you both were talking about Denzel's performance and just kind ofthe journey that, you know, with his performance and the character is on, because this
wasn't just a, an autobiography or a biography, you know, to make about an importantfigure.

(11:47):
I mean, this is, this has religious, you know, tones to it.
The thing that it reminds me the most of and why I think Malcolm
it both as a character in the movie, but also the real, the real life Malcolm, is sofascinating to people is that journey.
And I mean, it's, it's almost mystical.
It reminds me the most of there's a figure in Tibetan Buddhism.

(12:10):
One of the most famous, figures, Milarepa, who very famously started at, was known as amurderer when he was a young man and there was lots of drama.
I won't get into that story, but he also, and then became one of the most
famous and accomplished, you know, Siddhas in Buddhism.
there's that arc of someone becoming so holy only after having started in a much differentplace.

(12:37):
I just think it's that will always fascinate people, including myself.
it's even referenced in the, Malcolm himself references Saul on the road to Damascus, thebiblical figure who then converted to Christianity and became Paul.
Yeah.
And so I think that all of that made the story so important to be told, you know, not notby outsiders.

(12:59):
Absolutely, 100%.
So as a little bit of background, wanna talk a bit about the background of the film andhow it developed.
The film is based on the autobiography of Malcolm X as told to Alex Haley, which was firstpublished in 1965, shortly after Malcolm's assassination.
Alex Haley would later go on to write Roots and was one of the most prominent blackjournalists of the day.

(13:25):
The film rights to the book were acquired by a producer named Marvin Wirth, and hebasically spent the next 25 years trying to get this film made.
In 1972, he produced a documentary about Malcolm X based on the autobiography, which wasnominated for an Academy Award.
He also, as a producer, produced other movies based on real life figures such as 1974'sLenny and 1979's The Rose.

(13:52):
And over the years, numerous writers came and went, including legendary author JamesBaldwin, who knew Malcolm X personally, Arnold Pearl, David Mamet, Charles Fuller, and
Calder Willingham.
Ultimately, the writing credit went for the movie to Arnold Pearl, who passed away in1971, along with Spike Lee, who rewrote it when he became attached to direct.

(14:14):
As we mentioned, Norman Jewison was attached to direct for some time, but there was...
a great deal of controversy about having a white director telling this particular story.
And Jewison eventually stepped aside and Spike Lee was brought in.
But it was Jewison who cast Denzel Washington.
Although, as I mentioned, the two had worked together on the 1984 film, Soldier Story.

(14:37):
But Denzel, Spike was very happy to keep Denzel in the title role.
The two had worked together on a film in 1990, Moe Better Blues.
And I think that was one of those things where Spike was like, no, no, this is the guy forthe role.
And as we said, his portrayal of Malcolm X, it's just one of those rare instances.

(15:01):
Like to me, it's like George C.
Scott as Patton.
It's Peter O'Toole as T.E.
Lawrence.
It's one of those performances where it's so towering and indelible.
that it merges with the historical personage in a way that like if someone brings upGeorge Patton, which I mean, don't know, it happens reasonably frequently, but not all the

(15:26):
time.
I think of George C.
Scott.
I don't necessarily think of like the real historical Patton.
Yeah, I mean, in a, I mean, and he's still going, but in an extremely storied career, Imean, the clips from this movie will be prominent in any retrospective on the man's
career.

(15:47):
And that, that shot toward the end of this movie, not just like of older Malcolm, veryclose to the assassination.
The walking,
Yeah.
On that Dolly shot, you know, where he's clearly on the Dolly with the camera fixed in.
mean, it's just so damn iconic.

(16:08):
In addition to all of, mean, this, this movie is as quotable as any movie ever made.
And a lot of that of course is because it comes from Malcolm's writings and speeches, buta lot of it is, you know, is also the movie itself and spikes work.
I mean, it's just, this movie is ridiculously good.

(16:28):
I just don't, if Denzel Washington did not exist, I do not know if you even make thismovie.
Like I just don't know if anybody else could do it.
He is just incredible.
And I should say it's an incredible cast front to back.
Like we should mention some of other people.
Angela Bassett as Malcolm's wife, Betty.

(16:49):
Al Freeman Jr.
as Elijah Muhammad, Albert Hall, Delaroy Lindo.
Spike Lee in, I think, a really good role, Teresa Randall, Kate Vernon, Lynette McKee, andalso with smaller appearances by Christopher Plummer, Peter Boyle, Karen Allen, Debbie
Mazar, and Giancarlo Esposito.
It is an incredible cast.

(17:11):
And I just want to shout out Roger Smith is Rudy.
So Smiley himself and obviously other other, think every other Spike Lee up to thismoment, Spike Lee movie, the features at least, but, yeah, he, it's a smaller role, but I
was glad to see him and a hell of a scene.
my God, we're going to talk about that when we get there because it is, it is, it's one ofthe most, my God, it's, it's an incredible, incredible scene.

(17:37):
But let's start, let's start at the beginning.
Cause we opened with, with a prayer, with a, with a Muslim prayer and the image of theAmerican flag taking up the screen.
And that prayer is then followed by a speaker introducing Malcolm X and we get the voiceof Denzel Washington as Malcolm preaching and specifically preaching about

(17:59):
how the white man is the greatest criminal on earth, the greatest robber on earth, thegreatest murderer on earth.
And intercut with this footage of the American flag is footage from the beating of RodneyKing in Los Angeles in 1991, which at this point, when the time this movie came out, had
only happened a year and a half before this movie was released.
So right from the beginning, this is a film that is very content to be uncomfortable anduncompromising.

(18:26):
And soon that American flag burns away and it just leaves behind a single letter.
X.
It also from the very start is saying this is still relevant.
This is still life.
This is still the world that we live in.
It's not, it's saying this is not a historical retrospective.
This is evergreen as, as anything can be.

(18:47):
And it absolutely is.
And it still is.
I mean, it was, it was relevant in 1992.
Good God, it's still relevant in
2025, because time is a flat circle, which is depressing.
So then we cut to Boston during the war years.
And this early part of
And I'll just say for younger folks, the war years are referring to World War II.

(19:10):
It is, thank you, it is referring to World War II.
The warriors.
It's really a fantastic period detail.
The production design on this movie, throughout it, a movie that's set in the 40s, 50s and60s is just fantastic.
And we follow Spike Lee's character Shorty, who was walking through Boston in what wasknown as a zoot suit, which was this colorful high-waisted suit worn with a wide brim hat.

(19:40):
The walk that he's doing that we later see him and Malcolm do is known as a swag walk andwas popular among young people of the day.
He goes into a barbershop where we're introduced to his friend Malcolm Little.
And guys, it's amazing how Denzel Washington has a physical transformation in this moviewithout

(20:03):
a lot of makeup.
It's not like, they put on, he ages about 20 years over the course or 25 years over thecourse of this movie, but you don't see them.
It's not like, there's, there's noticeable age makeup or anything like that.
It's just, it's the way he's styled and his performance that gives a feel of a man who ischanging and evolving.

(20:25):
And you see it when you go to this, this early part of it, like this early sequence, it'slike, it's, it looks like so young is,
It's such a young, it's like seen elsewhere Denzel Washington, he looks so young.
Yes.
And it's that physicality that you're talking about because in the early part of the film,starts with he is bursting with energy and swagger.

(20:46):
And then through the course of this movie, it turns to power.
It turns to gravitas.
And eventually, I would say it ends in it not neither of those two.
ends in wisdom.
Yeah.
And I don't like obviously that's the effect of the whole movie and his story.
but you feel it like, because even in the later Malcolm, there's a difference between, youknow, the performance when he is in the midst of the break with the nation of Islam versus

(21:17):
when you are in those final, that final reel of the film, it is a different, it's adifferent Malcolm and there's an acceptance that comes.
And anyway, I agree wholeheartedly.
It's amazing how his voice just changes subtly from each period to the next.
It's such a layered performance.

(21:39):
It's an energetic performance, but it's a layered performance as well.
A couple of things about this scene.
I want to mention that Shorty is going to be conking Malcolm's hair.
Now, this was a hairstyle that was popular among black people in the early to mid 20thcentury where
what happened is they would put a mixture of containing lye, which was used to straightennaturally kinky hair.

(22:04):
Of course, lye is highly corrosive.
So if you leave it in too long, you're going to burn that scalp.
And we see them, he puts it in and we see them hurrying to wash the conk out before theburning starts.
And it gets to something that will be a recurring theme in this whole film.
But in particular, in the early part of the film is that

(22:27):
in America at this time, black people were frequently taught to hate their own identity ina way that I think, I mean, that other people can't quite appreciate.
I mean, it's so pervasive that Malcolm and Shorty both believe it.
They don't even realize that they do, but they do.

(22:47):
when the conking is done, Malcolm says, looks white, don't it?
I mean, like that is so...
That is just a fundamentally terrible thing, the idea of being made to feel bad, simplyjust that your identity is somehow lesser.
And this movie gets to the heart of it and how pervasive that was in America at that time.

(23:11):
And that the Conking of the Hairs used to show both passage of time in the early stageshere as well as, you know, Malcolm's evolution from one kind of man to another.
Yes.
Through the whole movie.
But what you'll get early on is this, the burning is so intense and he cannot take it inthis scene.
There will be a scene a little bit down the road where he is just sitting there cool as acucumber and he is so adjusted to the pain of having to

(23:40):
do that, that he just, can, you he's living with the pain and not even reacting orrealizing it.
And then there's a third point later when he can no longer live with the pain anymore.
And you know, it's coinciding with other things in his life.
And it's just those little details, which are in, mean, those, those details are in partin the autobiography in the book, but the way that they are placed and where they are

(24:08):
placed in this movie.
is super effective.
Absolutely.
The other thing I want to mention about this scene is that the guys in the barbershop aretalking about playing the numbers and people that may not be familiar with that.
And I want to mention that the numbers or that a number game was basically a lottery runby organized crime and different cities would have different numbers run by different

(24:33):
criminal organizations.
And later on, we're going to see Malcolm get involved in the running of numbers.
So at this point, Malcolm starts to talk.
I should mention this whole film is narrated by Malcolm as if he is giving a speech or heis giving a lecture.
And he talks about how his house was burned down by the Ku Klux Klan and his father waseventually murdered by the Klan.

(24:58):
Although his father's death was labeled a suicide, meaning his mother couldn't collect theinsurance money and eventually the family was split up.
But you cut back and forth at this point early in the movie between Malcolm as a young manin Boston, you know, 19, 20 years old, and some of his experiences as a child.

(25:20):
And it's really interesting to see, you know, as teenage Malcolm or young adult Malcolmgoes into a criminal life, but you see these things that happened early on that pushed him
in that direction.
Yes.
And, very, when those scenes of the family getting, both threatened by the clan and theneventually burned out of their home happen in the pack, the flashbacks important to pay

(25:46):
attention to the framing and how those are shot, because you will get a mirror of that farlater in the film to great effect as well.
it is, but yeah, I mean, that, that is one thing that if,
if and do the right thing.

(26:07):
The both sides were being presented early on in the pizza, you know, in the, in the pizzashop where you had, you know, sounds like saying it's his place.
He can put who he wants on the wall, you know, bugging out as saying we spend money here.
are American.
Yeah, we have some say here.
This movie presents the sides, but not at the same time.

(26:30):
And so the beginning of this film, actually each section kind of has its own argument thatit is making.
And so in the beginning, it really is showcasing why a perfectly reasonable human beingwould wind up with the beliefs that they had.
In this case, the beliefs that we're feeding, it's okay for him to commit crimes.

(26:56):
And then eventually it will lead into,
know, it's reasonable when you get to the Nation of Islam's, you know, the preaching of,guess, Elijah Muhammad, that that would make sense, that that would resonate with Malcolm
as well at that point in his life.
This is all building that up.
Yes, absolutely.

(27:17):
For example, there's young Malcolm, his family is split up, young Malcolm ends up in aninstitution and he's told, despite the fact that he's a bright kid and a good student,
that his aspiration to be a lawyer is not realistic because of his race, that that is nota job that black people can have.

(27:40):
It is fundamentally different, I think, from
the experience of other ethnic groups.
Because you hear people say, the Irish didn't have it easy when they came here.
The Italians didn't have it easy when they came here.
And that's not untrue.
In fact, it is true of nearly every immigrant group.
What's different is that those groups were not told by the culture at large that theirrace was something to be ashamed of.

(28:08):
That is not the same as, hey,
it was tough to get a job at a particular place or a particular time.
It is a very different thing with the black experience in America.
That is my take on it.
And I think this movie illustrates that.
he had a, resonated in a very personal way for him too, because his mom was white, well,light skinned.

(28:33):
She was of mixed ethnic background because her mother, his mother's mother had been raped.
by a white man.
Yeah, and so he was, in that point, he establishes this note about taking the white man'smost prized thing, which is the white woman.
And that's something that would unfortunately continue to happen to him a number of timesthroughout his own life as the story rolls on here, that that kept presenting itself and

(29:03):
the way that the, the way that.
Racism is presented in this is so diverse as well.
It isn't just white people He keeps encountering throughout these early years reallythroughout his whole life But in those early years the really informative experiences so
many of them aren't just with white folks.
It's it's black folks as well.

(29:23):
It's it's within His universe there are people who who feel that same way and it's anamazing unflinching
portrait of that.
And I think it's, it's really, really fascinating how Spike Lee didn't just shine thelight on one side of this.

(29:44):
He, he really turned on the full lights on all of culture at this time to present the factthat this isn't white versus black, just white versus black.
This is a much more complicated cultural situation than just that, which is oftentimes,unfortunately it's boiled down to that.

(30:04):
when people look back historically.
And I just also want to say that I think it's shameful that now we're in an age, youmentioned 2025 earlier, where they're pushing education about this kind of history out of
our schools.
It's madness.
It's madness.
Yeah, I agree.
They don't want children learning about the truth.
It's the same kind of whitewashing as was relevant here in this story.

(30:29):
is still something we struggle against.
And that is, it's such a damning thing that we are still having these fights and havingthese conversations.
it's, it's absolutely, it is terrible and God, you know, you'd hope 2025 would be thefuture, but, sometimes it's just the present over and over again, you know?

(30:53):
but I do want to say, you know, for someone listening to this podcast, who hasn'tnecessarily seen this movie, it is not entirely like,
There's a lot of harrowing stuff in this movie, but Lee, because he is a very skilledfilmmaker, knows that in order for it to not be overwhelming, it is balanced early on with
some scenes of genuine joy and camaraderie.

(31:15):
So in the 1940s, young adult Malcolm and Shorty go to a dance hall where Spike Leeessentially stages a full-on musical number, and it is absolutely fantastic.
I love that they have Lionel Hampton on stage.
it's great.
The king of the vibes.
When I grew up as a young percussionist, I just thought he was one of the Mount Rushmorefigures in the world of drumming, drums, percussion, and a great drummer, also the

(31:46):
consummate vibes guy.
But how cool, there are several sequences like with Billie Holiday later on.
Yes, yes.
Where he's pulling in very relevant.
very important names, not just putting a faceless band on stage, which would have beenvery easy to do, but to take that effort, to put that effort into it, to really put you in
that time and place is great.

(32:06):
And the joy in that room during that whole dance sequence.
It's amazing.
it's wonderful.
And it's so colorful.
It's a beautiful sequence.
Yeah, Spike Lee does something that does basically the same thing here that MartinScorsese does in Goodfellas, where he has, you know, where they go to the Copacabana and
see Henny Youngman.
It's like they had in that case, they had the real Henny Youngman playing himself.

(32:31):
you know, so it's really grounding these characters at this particular time and place.
And as you say, it's not just a generic band on stage.
is performers who are really important.
in the wider culture.
And this is a great example of earlier on with Spike and Ernest Dickerson with the framingand the lighting, the first third to half of this movie feels extremely classic.

(33:03):
Absolutely.
Classical film, even down to this sequence where you are getting, and I don't know all theequipment, but it does feel like that camera's on a crane at some point.
Oh, sure.
And you're, up above and you're, you know, it's very classic.
It's a it's like a Technicolor Hollywood musical!
Yeah.
By the time this thing ends, the filmmaking and the style of the film have alteredslightly, not a crazy amount, but you know, by the end, when Malcolm's a little more

(33:36):
paranoid, he's been the middle section.
You almost get some, some halls of power, like Godfather type feel where the framing is alittle, a little more.
It's just different.
It's just further down the timeline of American film.
And then by the end, I feel your frames aren't, I'm going to say something that I have toexplain.

(33:59):
I'm going to say the framing isn't as clean by the end during when he's paranoid about whomight be coming for him and et cetera.
I don't mean that to mean that it's sloppy.
What I mean it to be is if you, for instance, like what in fury road,
George Miller put everything dead center because he wanted to cut so fast.

(34:20):
Right.
So if something is dead center in a frame, you're not having the audience.
That's probably the first place they're looking.
And if you're not giving them anything else, so it's, it's clean in that way.
His frames later on, they get more complex where you're kind of wondering what's you'renot, you're not wondering what's going on.
The action is clear, but what you're wondering is it just doesn't feel as safe or as nice.

(34:43):
Sure.
Anyway, that's a long winded way of saying this stuff in the beginning.
in some ways is actually very fun.
Even, even when, you know, you're having a bar fight encounter or whatever, it feels alittle more classic in that way.
It is, it feels like Cagney or someone which they, the characters are directlyreferencing.

(35:03):
Sure.
You know, it's shot in that way as you're slowly peeling the onion layers to kind of getto raw and raw character emotions as you're going through.
Absolutely.
I think that's a great, great analysis of how this movie's visual style evolves in tellingthis story.
mean, this is an expertly made film.

(35:26):
mean, Spike Lee is obviously had one of the most, I don't want to say like this is hiscrowning achievement, but good God, it might be.
Like it's so amazing of a film.
And I hadn't seen, I saw it in the movie theaters back when it came out and I had seen itsince, but it had been a couple of years since I last saw it.
And I gotta say, it affected me more now than, and I always liked it, but it affected meeven more this time seeing him.

(35:54):
I said, this is really masterclass filmmaking here.
So it's at this point in the film where Malka meets Sophia, the white woman who takes aliking to him and is very interested in having sex with him.
This leads to his breakup with Wora, who is a nice girl.
a nice African American girl who flat out tells Malcolm, I'm not white and I don't putout.

(36:18):
And she knows what he's interested in, not just that he's interested in sex, but there isthe allure of a white woman, of being with a white woman that is part of that.
So.
Malcolm and Sophia, they go down to Harlem where they meet West Indian Archie, who is alocal gangster played by Delroy Lindo.

(36:41):
Man, Delroy Lindo is great in this movie.
mean, everybody's great, but Delroy Lindo gives such a terrific performance in a smallerbut pivotal role in the film.
Yeah, he is amazing.
And the, he, is a smaller role, but he gets quite a bit.

(37:02):
But when he comes back, two versions of Archie that we get to see are it's, know, it'sjust such a range and, and where he goes.
I, it really is incredible.
Archie becomes Malcolm's first mentor, basically, and introduces him to crime.

(37:23):
He introduces him to cocaine.
He gives Malcolm his first gun.
there's this kind of, you know, there's this sort of, there's almost a paternal role thatin a criminal
It teaches him where and how to wear the gun.
yeah.
So, so that if you're frisked, they won't find it's really interesting.

(37:44):
And that first exchange with them when he Delroy calls him over to the table and to sitdown, this is the first time that you really see the, mean, that's the part of the
intensity I was talking about earlier where on a dime he just Denzel just switches intothis and he catches, he catches Delroy off guard in that.

(38:08):
He's you know Archie doesn't know what to make of this guy, but he's impressed becausethere's something really bold about him and there's something genuine about his Even
though he doesn't have a goal at this point that hasn't been established or anything likethat What he does have is the makings of someone who's more than most and And I and

(38:31):
Archie's the first one to really see that in him Archie's the first one in a position ofinfluence in this film to
to welcome him to the table, I guess you could say.
And so it's such an important relationship that they have and Delroy's amazing.
yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I also want to mention, this, it's, it's, I think it's significant later.

(38:51):
There is a scene where you see Malcolm celebrating what was Joe Louis's victory over boxerBilly Khan in 1941.
And there's a big, you know, that was, there's a big celebration in Harlem.
for the Joe Louis' victory, but I think it's interesting and I want to point it out, asidefrom the fact that it was a real fight that took place, but also it sets up something that

(39:17):
when later he's in prison and they're talking about Jackie Robinson breaking the colorbarrier, this idea that white people are just fine with black people as long as they're
entertaining them.
If they're boxing, they're playing baseball, if they're singing on stage, there'ssomething where, it's okay for them to be entertainers.
But once they start to exert their own agency, well, that starts to become a littledifferent.

(39:41):
And you even set it up here with Joe Lewis's victory over Billy Cohen and the celebration.
they're off and that thought is an entire Spike Lee film from 2000 bamboozled that hewrote and directed exploring that with Damon Waynes, Jada Pinkett Smith.

(40:02):
yes, Avion Glover, Tommy Davidson, Michael Rapoport.
Anyway, that that movie is a wild one, too.
Yeah, it's been a while.
I have seen that, but it's been a while.
I need to give that another look.
Malcolm and Archie ultimately have a falling out over the numbers racket.
And this is such an interesting series of scenes where, because Archie keeps all thenumbers in his head.

(40:24):
He doesn't write anything down, which admittedly I get, if you're engaged in criminalenterprise, not writing things down is, I get that.
I cannot remember.
any kind of numbers.
If you tell me a number, I will instantly forget it.
So my luck as a numbers runner would have been very,

(40:45):
And, yup, nope, it's on the big board.
is Chekov's never write anything down.
Don't write down the numbers.
There you go.
But Malcolm says, you basically Malcolm comes to him and says he picked the winning numberthan the previous night demands to be paid Archie has no memory of it, but Archie pays
Malcolm But now he's gonna check on it and it's not well, it's not long before Archiecomes back This is the sequence with Billie Holiday on stage and before Billy could finish

(41:14):
her song Archie and his guys chase Malcolm out of the club and out of Harlem
So Malcolm then returns to Boston with Sophia and he and Shorty decide they go into theburglary business.
Having lived in Boston for a number of years, it is funny to me that their criminalhideout is in Harvard Square.
Like, there you go, right from the newspaper stand.

(41:37):
Yeah, very much.
I wonder if they were close to the tasty, which is no longer there.
That hamburger shop.
But hey, I would buy that hamburger shop being there in the since the late forties.
I forget it was there for a long time.
I'm talking about the important things about this movie.
Absolutely.
I want to talk a little bit about the Russian roulette scene because that it comes at thispoint and man, man, is this an intense scene.

(42:02):
So they're working with this other guy, Rudy, who's half Italian and half black.
And this soon evolves into like a pissing contest between Rudy and Malcolm over who theleader is.
And Malcolm settles that with a game of Russian roulette.
there's this, the revolver that he's got, he's got five chambers.
He's got one bullet and he basically, Malcolm takes the first two chambers on himself andyou know, and everybody's like the intensity of watching him pull this trigger and he is

(42:35):
just, he is just cool as a cucumber.
But then he points that third shot at Rudy's nose.
He's like, I'll blow, I'll blow your nose right off.
And he pulls the trigger.
then like after that Rudy's like, no, no, you're in charge, man.
You're in charge.
And.
God is Denzel Washington absolutely electric in this scene.

(42:55):
my God.
Second only to probably deer hunter when it comes to a sequence like this.
I was thinking it's like, yeah, it's like the, it's, you know, most iconic Russianroulette scene after deer hunter.
Sure.
Yeah, absolutely.
But then of course here there's the twist at the end where we learned that Malcolm hadpalmed the bullet and I, I won't lie.
I went back, I rewound it.

(43:16):
I'm like, I don't know how he could have.
I it's movie magic how he could have palm that bullet.
It's, it's amazing.
Yeah.
And this is, it's the one, this is a Rudy, the, the guy challenging Malcolm here is, isthis is the role played by Roger Smith.
He's fantastic here because it's, it's in the span of a single scene that he is, has thistough guy bravado.

(43:41):
And then it just by the end, no.
And you feel it and it is, it's, it's a quiet decimation.
It's, so like,
It's so funny how the energy in the scene goes so down and it makes it a million timesmore tense.

(44:02):
Yeah, you're a hundred percent right.
It is an incredible scene.
But eventually their crime spree comes to an end when the cops bust through the door.
And this is just as Malcolm is, he's conking his hair and the water doesn't come out ofthe tap.
It's actually one of the funnier scenes when he's trying to get the water out, the conkout of his hair.
He's got no water coming out and then the cops burst in and the jig is up.

(44:29):
So Malcolm and Shorty are both sentenced to eight to 10 years.
for their burglary spree, Sophia and another Coke and Speeder peg get two years.
So there's a difference right there.
you know, I mean, we can see that Malcolm is on a self-destructive streak.
I mean, the way he, you know, the judge, which was played by civil rights attorney WilliamKunstler in a cameo role, he gives a fuck you, he mouths fuck you, is silent to the judge.

(45:00):
And it's...
Like just this is a guy who is angry and he is out to destroy himself and anybody else.
So in prison, Malcolm, you know, there's a sequence where he's being put in his cell, herefuses, they call him and he's supposed to call out with his number, he refuses to call
out his number and he ends up getting thrown in solitary.

(45:23):
And there's this sequence in solitary confinement where again,
We don't Denzel Washington is so amazing in this where we get the eventual pain that thisguy is in of, you know, imagine being locked in a dark, like essentially a dark cell alone

(45:45):
for, you know, what seems to be weeks on end.
And God, it is, it is just, it's incredible performance by, I'll say it again, causeDenzel Washington is in.
nearly every scene of this movie and he is incredible in every scene he's in.
It's not like this is an ensemble piece where you have, you're going to go away fromMalcolm for a while and spend time with other characters.

(46:08):
Occasionally you have scenes without Malcolm, but the great majority are with him.
And this sequence is shot so beautifully through that darkness, the piercing blue lightcutting through the slot.
Yeah, when the sling gets opened and light floods into the dark space.
It's amazing.
It really is.
And he gets a visit from the prison chaplain played by Christopher Plummer, who will comeback a little bit later, but he wants nothing to do with them.

(46:35):
he, you know, just the, even anything, anything that the chaplain is selling, you know,Malcolm is not buying and he is going through cocaine withdrawal.
He comes perilously close to, it seems losing his sanity until he eventually will, like heis to some degree broken when he says his number.
Like the guy comes in, this guy's, Malcolm's on the ground and he's like, give us yournumber.

(46:59):
And he croaks it out and then they take him out of Solitaire.
It is after that, he is in the shower when he is paid a visit by a character named Baines.
He encountered Baines very briefly when he came in to the prison and Baines gives him amixture of nutmeg that will help ease his withdrawal symptoms.

(47:19):
And he tells him that he can get him out of prison.
And not the physical prison around him, but the prison of his mind, the prison that leadshim to put a corrosive chemical on his head to change his natural appearance as if that
were something to be ashamed of.
He says to him, why don't you want to look like who you are?
And Baines tells Malcolm that a man named Elijah Muhammad has the answers if he is readyto listen.

(47:47):
first thing a black man must have is respect for himself.
Respect his body and his mind.
Quit taking the white man's poisons into his body.
His cigarettes, his dope, his liquor, his white woman, his pork.
point
Yeah, my mama used to say that.

(48:07):
Don't eat no pork.
Your mama was right.
That pig is a filthy beast.
Part rat, part cat, and the rest is dog.
All right, pull my coat on this now.
What happens if you give all that up?
I mean, the pork, and you get sick, and then you get a medical or something?
Like when I was on the outside, I ran this hustle.

(48:29):
I tried to act like...
I'm telling you God's words, not no hustle.
And I'm gonna tell you.
God is black.
God is black?
Everybody knows God is white.
Everything the white man taught you, you accepted.
He taught you you were a black heathen and you believed him.
He taught you to worship a blonde, blue-eyed Jesus with white skin and you believed him.

(48:50):
He taught you that black was a curse and you believed that.
Did you ever look up the word black in a dictionary?
For what?
Did you ever study anything that wasn't part of some con?
What the hell for, man?
And we have the sequence where Baines and Malcolm start to talk and it doesn't happenovernight.
The movie takes its time where Malcolm starts to learn about the nation of Islam and thebeliefs they have and you understand why these appeal to him that he should not be ashamed

(49:23):
of who he is, that he should be proud of who he is.
It's a fascinating sequence.
And in a time shortened movie, this is one that a hundred percent would have been trimmedto.
He goes to jail and then he comes out, you know, having, having found the nation of Islam.
What I find interesting though, in the film that does exist is that when you look at thefather figures as they come in succession here and Baines is his own version of it.

(49:56):
Although then you get, you know,
Elijah Muhammad comes with him
Baines is kind of a conduit to Elijah Muhammad.
But you know, with Archie, Malcolm in this film was eager.
Yeah.
And want it essentially even tried to lie his way in to con his way in to get in Archie'sorbit because he knew that he had what he wanted here.

(50:21):
It is the opposite.
Yeah.
Where it takes some, some amount of convincing to get Malcolm to the viewpoint that
the nation of Islam does have what he wants.
And it's a very different, you know, a very different want from, from the ones that he hadbefore on the surface.

(50:42):
But I think deep down it's the same damn want, which is he just wants to be a man in thisworld and, and, you know, be respected and be able to go about his life without people,
you know, coming after him in various capacities.
when he's been told his whole life that he is lesser because of the color of his skin,that you can see why that would be the primary one.

(51:08):
And it's so interesting these conversations that the movie takes the time to have.
Baines using the dictionary definitions of white and black to underscore the point.
it's really amazing.
And this, this question that Baines literally states, who are you?

(51:28):
Yeah.
That question of identity is so big.
And up until now he had been searching for it, but it had been unspoken.
But once, once it is spoken here at this low point in prison and Malcolm will answer thisquestion in different ways, at different points, the rest of the runtime of this film and.

(51:53):
It's interesting to see that evolution from, if you want to say in this movie, this is upto this point has been, was act one and we're now into act two in the old traditional
ways.
And so in two and three, that question of who he is, I think in most of act two leadinginto three, you could say that that question of who he is, is being answered in, in,

(52:20):
many ways in a more healthy manner, but it's still, he is depending upon outsidevalidation.
He's just changed who he's looking.
He's changed it from all of society to very small subsets, even down to one or twoindividual men, perhaps.
that by the end of this film, the idea that who he is needs to be based on the approval ofany outside person goes away, I would say.

(52:48):
it.
connects much more deeply to his religion and his spirituality.
Yes, absolutely.
We'll get to his relationship with the Nation of Islam in a bit because I think it'sreally interesting.
I do want to mention that it's around this time that we see some of the prisonerscelebrating the news that Jackie Robinson had broken the color barrier, which I wanted to

(53:09):
mention because I think it connects back to Joe Lewis and that earlier.
And Baines points out that one man playing in the major leagues does not undo
centuries of oppression.
In some ways, this is not the goal.

(53:29):
It is a much bigger thing than that.
And a metaphor for the fact that at this point in the film and Malcolm's life, differentraces cannot play on the same team for the same goal.
Right.
is not possible in this viewpoint.
This gets called out very specifically later on when they have, you know, when, Malcolm ispreaching and they have a white college student, I think, female come up and say, she's,

(53:58):
you know, read his speeches and.
You know, believes in what he's doing, wants to know what she can do to help.
And he says nothing and just walks away with his group.
And again, by the, by the end, when he goes onto pilgrimage, he will be in a muchdifferent place where that, is no longer his belief, in the end of the film.
Absolutely.

(54:18):
I do want to point out before we leave the prison sequence, the prison yard in which theyare filming is actually in New Jersey.
It is Rawway State Prison with its very recognizable dome.
I did a stretch there a few years ago.
Just kidding.
I did not do a stretch there a few years ago.
But you can see it in other movies like Ocean's Eleven.

(54:40):
AI biography will now forever have your stint at that, at that prison in your perfect inyour story.
Chris.
hey, listen, all I want to do is muck with the algorithm.
That's my goal, you know?
So Malcolm does, he eventually, well, before he leaves prison, I want to mention one,there's a couple more really interesting things because there's a sequence where Baines is

(55:03):
talking to Malcolm about being a Muslim and that he must kneel and submit to the will ofAllah.
And he wants to do it.
He wants to be able to do that, but he can't.
And Baynes asked him, have you ever kneeled before?
He's like, yeah, I've kneeled to pick locks, but I can't do this.

(55:25):
And the pain in Denzel Washington's expression that he wants to do this thing, he wants togive himself over, but he can't.
And then Malcolm receives a letter from Elijah Muhammad and Spike Lee does somethingreally interesting here.
I received a letter that day from the honorable Elijah Muhammad.

(55:46):
The dear holy apostle wrote to me, a nobody, a junkie, a pimp, and a convict.
I have come to give you something which can never be taken away from you.
I bring to you a sense of your own worth.
The worth of one human being, the knowledge of self.

(56:10):
It was like a blinding light and I became aware that he was in the room with me.
He wore a dark suit and on his face I saw wisdom and pain so old and deep that I couldscarcely look at him.
But I knew I wasn't dreaming, he was right there with me.
I tell you...
The most dangerous creation in the world, in any society...

(56:36):
Is the man with nothing to lose.
You do not need ten such men to change the world.
One will do.
The Earth belonged to us, the black man.
And whatever is around it or on it or in it belonged to us.

(57:00):
And then as suddenly as he came, he was gone.
And then I could do it.
We are taught that Paul on the road to Damascus heard the voice of Christ.
He was so smitten by the truth that he fell from his horse.
Now, I don't liken myself to Paul, but I do understand.

(57:24):
You see, it happened to me.
We actually see it as Malcolm described in his autobiography.
We see this scene where Elijah Muhammad is sitting before him in his cell, bathed ingolden light.
it is, can't, for me, I cannot imagine the feeling that one might have had.

(57:50):
And being told their whole life they are of no value and to be told for the first timethey do.
And the way that he stages this scene with this sort of, not ghostly image, but this sortof, it's kind of transparent image of Elijah Muhammad sitting in this chair.
It's really extraordinary.
It's a really extraordinary moment.
It's a great image.

(58:10):
the photography from Ernest Dickerson looks just so beautiful.
because it looks both ethereal, but also real.
It does.
You know, it doesn't look crazy.
It looks very natural, even though it is not.
And this scene is one of the little turn points for the filmmaking after the scene is alittle bit different.

(58:35):
Yeah.
It's not like,
You will, the average person watching this movie, I don't think would say, know, Malcolm Xcompletely changed his look, you know, from here to here to here.
That's not what I'm saying, but this is one of the, the, the filmmaking is different.
The color palette is different.
you get a lot warmer light, I feel.
And look, maybe I'm crazy, but it just, to me, feels like you, after the glow of thisscene, you get that warm yellow light a lot more, especially in indoor scenes.

(59:07):
So Malcolm eventually does get out of prison and he goes to see Elijah Muhammad.
And I want to talk about the scene where they first meet because I think it's a reallyinteresting one.
First of all, just the emotion on Malcolm's face, the sense of gratitude, of faith.
And Denzel Washington's so extraordinary in this moment.
This whole scene where he meets Elijah Muhammad for the first time, Denzel Washington saysalmost nothing and his face is on camera nearly the entire time.

(59:38):
It is a really extraordinary moment.
The pain and the emotion, the tears that seem so real for him in that at first he can'teven look Elijah in the face.
He just looks sort of down.
Like he's almost bent over.
Here's this, this guy who you've seen standing up straight through the whole movie and helooks stooped over because of the weight of what he is undergoing.

(01:00:00):
Yeah.
Yeah.
He just humbled by the presence and you see it wash over Denzel in such an amazing way.
It's really something.
But I want to point something out now.
When we first see Malcolm at the Nation of Islam headquarters, he's standing at the bottomof a set of stairs.
And the wooden spindles of the banister are between him and the camera.

(01:00:25):
So it is suggestive of, to me, of prison bars.
That while he has made
an extraordinary change in his life.
He's not entirely free.
He may still be a prisoner in a different way.
And when he's in the room with Elijah Muhammad, the horizontal blinds, they throw thislight across Malcolm's face, suggestive of bars.

(01:00:54):
While Malcolm has certainly been freed from one prison, in fact, probably more than one,he is still maybe in a prison of another kind.
So Malcolm Little, now known as Malcolm X, begins preaching for the nation of Islam.
I love the shot where we see him preaching on the street corner and you have peoplelistening, but then the camera turns around and you see that Malcolm is one of many

(01:01:15):
preachers out there.
Other ones being played by the Reverend Al Sharpton and Black Panther Party co-founderBobby Seale.
But Malcolm's charisma is so singular that it sets him apart and the camera soon comesback to it.
And, but also sets up the scene later on where there are a lot of men who are gonna talkin the city, but there are not many who will act.

(01:01:43):
And this is setting up a critical sequence, not too much further down the road, butanother critical sequence.
yes.
and based on a real event, you know, that happened.
First, I want to mention that Malcolm reconnects with Shorty, who thinks that Malcolm'srunning a con and he learns that basically all of their old crew, they're either dead or

(01:02:05):
in jail or insane from drug addiction, except for Sophia, who left the criminal life andmarried the white guy, which we mentioned earlier.
But then he goes to see Archie, who is living in squalor in this apartment.
And again, Delroy Lindo gives just such a great supporting, you see him in the earlierpart of the movie and he's just got it all together.

(01:02:30):
And here we see this broken guy who it looks like I think has suffered a stroke.
I don't know if you guys, they don't explicitly say it, but it looks like the way his faceis carried that he has suffered from a stroke and just the pity that Malcolm has.
It's really amazing.
So he soon meets, I should also mention another character is going to enter the film here.

(01:02:53):
He soon meets young Betty at the temple meeting.
Betty, who will become his wife, played by Angela Bassett.
And Baines is there and makes the comment, she's interesting.
And Malcolm and Betty begin this courtship, which has got undeniable chemistry.

(01:03:14):
It's the two of them.
together are incredible.
But he's willing to be, he's pulled away from that as he's in the midst of it when they'rehaving milkshakes.
Yes.
He's reminded of his call when, when we find out about brother Johnson and what'shappened, which then initiates the rest of the film.

(01:03:35):
Ultimately.
Yes, it does.
Cause the movie dramatizes a real event from Malcolm's life when he went to a policestation to ensure the safety of Hinton Johnson, a member of the nation of Islam who was
beaten and arrested by the police after he tried to prevent cops from beating anotherblack man.
And we have this whole sequence where Malcolm goes in, he insists on seeing BrotherJohnson.

(01:04:03):
He wants to make sure that he is being well treated by the police.
He is so controlled in this sequence.
He's not screaming, he's not raising his voice.
but he knows his rights and Brother Johnson's rights and he knows the law.
And it is amazing.

(01:04:25):
And of course, a crowd gathers outside the police precinct, including members of theNation of Islam.
And it's really, really something.
This is where he gives, when he is satisfied that Brother Johnson has been taken to thehospital, he gives the hand signal for them to leave.
And they, almost, like in lockstep.

(01:04:46):
leave and go and it's amazing.
It's an amazing sequence.
That's when the cop says, he says, that's too much power for one man to have.
Yeah.
As they're walking away and it's a, Yeah.
Peter Boyle plays the cop in that one scene.
Yeah.
And apparently that was a real quote from a real cop after that incident to the New YorkAmsterdam news.

(01:05:12):
Like, so that is, that is something that somebody actually said.
in the moment about that, about that.
It's, it's, but it's, it's one of the iconic, I mean, it's in the trailer.
It's, one of those iconic moments.
And, you know, clearly that cop quote would, you would amend the word black in there, toomuch power for a black man to have.

(01:05:32):
But what is interesting is that again, you see these markers that, that are teeing up theaudience for the film.
Obviously I'm not talking about real life, but in this film, this is the first time thatthat thought is uttered, but that thought is going to snowball.
quite a bit as we go along because there are other people much closer to Malcolm who aregoing to start to think that he does have too much power and that it is bad for them.

(01:06:01):
Yes, indeed.
also want to mention, it's interesting how in this point of the film, we are frequentlyreminded how Malcolm's words are often not his own, but are those of Elijah Muhammad.
So you'll have Malcolm talking with Betty, and then you'll cut to, and he's sayingsomething, and then you'll cut to Malcolm sitting with Elijah Muhammad, and Elijah

(01:06:24):
Muhammad is saying those exact words to him.
So to some degree, as, as, as,
hypnotic a speaker he is and he my god he is good he's not necessarily his own man at this
And I would say the courtship with Betty is probably the first time that we might, youknow, and some of this is, know, from our modern perspective on, on gender relations as

(01:06:50):
well.
But, it's that courtship of Betty and what you're talking about where he is, Malcolm issaying things to her that we then cut and see that, Elijah Muhammad had told him they were
those teachings.
This is the first time we see the cracks in those teachings in this film.
Up till now, I think the film has taken great pains to show us how reasonable it mighthave felt and seen for someone like Malcolm with his background to come in to the nation

(01:07:18):
of Islam.
Now, Malcolm isn't seeing it yet, but we are.
That's a key difference here.
that slowly over time, he will have his eyes opened up about certain things with thenation of Islam.
and Elijah.
Yeah, it's real interesting.
I, I, thing I want to mention at this point, because the, the, editing in this movie is,is amazing.

(01:07:43):
Like, and it reminds me of another movie that came out around the same time, OliverStone's JFK, the way it, it, it weaves together, you know, audio created for the movie
contrasting with historical footage.
We hear Denzel Washington as Malcolm.
speaking over footage of the violence carried out against black people during the civilrights era.

(01:08:06):
And you have the shots of the fire hoses being turned on black people, which immediatelybrought to mind the climactic sequence of do the right thing.
And then you have images of Martin Luther King preaching nonviolence as violence is beingcarried out against black people.
And then you have Denzel Washington as Malcolm speaking harshly.

(01:08:26):
against those leaders.
And the way these different things both visually and orally move together, again, itreminds me of the editing from JFK, the way that is put together.
It's really exciting.
And he's just say it's, important to note because it's not all the way throughout thefilm, but using both real footage and, in some cases, contemporaneous footage at the time,

(01:08:57):
it happens from the beginning to the end of this film.
it does not want you to forget that this is more than just a movie that this actually hasa place in American history.
and it does so very effectively in that way.
It's interesting they don't cast anybody as Martin Luther King Jr.

(01:09:17):
Anything we see of Martin Luther King Jr.
And there's a bit of him because oftentimes we have Malcolm X speaking against him sayingthat that way is not the smart way to go.
That the things that Dr.
King espoused was not the way to go.
And they don't do it by casting someone in that role.
They just use historical footage.

(01:09:40):
It's really interesting.
And it is around this time that we start to see some members of the Nation of Islambecoming jealous of Malcolm, including Baines, who I'll admit, at this point, I feel like
is where Baines starts to, like he feels like an individual in the earlier scenes inprison.
But then when he becomes kind of one of the leading voices against him, he feels a littlebit more like a composite character to me, which I believe he is.

(01:10:06):
I believe he is a composite character.
And I feel that a little bit in here where he becomes, again, that's how filmmaking works.
You didn't necessarily want to introduce a whole new character here.
Malcolm begins to hear rumors that Elijah Muhammad may have fathered some children withyoung women working for the nation of Islam.
And while he is hard pressed to believe it, he soon comes to discover it's true.

(01:10:30):
I want to mention a fantastic scene with Malcolm and Betty where they discuss thoserumors.
U.P.I., Elijah Muhammad, 67 year old leader of the black Muslim movement, today facepaternity suits from two former secretaries.
Flanders Betty, these are lies.
Don't you realize that?

(01:10:50):
Don't you realize whose newspaper this is?
This is the devil's newspaper.
He's trying to divide us.
Don't you see that?
Divide and conquer.
He's trying to bring down our leader.
Both women in their 20s charged that they had intimacy with Mr.

(01:11:12):
Mohammed.
You think I'm not aware of these accusations, Betty?
Huh?
You think I'm not aware of these vicious lies?
I talking about this very thing today.

(01:11:34):
Baines, is he your friend?
What's the matter?
Nothing.
Now tell me, what's the matter with you?
Wake up!
Are you so committed that you blinded yourself?
You so dedicated you can't face the truth?
Baines?
He's the editor of the newspaper that you established.
Ask him what?
Ask him why your name hasn't even appeared in Mohammed Speaks in over a year.

(01:11:57):
Ask him why you rave-front page on every paper in the country, not one single sentence inyour own!
But do you know what Baines is doing?
What is this Baines?
you so blind!
Baines!
Baines!
It plays like an argument in real life because it moves from one topic to the other.

(01:12:20):
It takes its time and it kind of evolves the way, to be perfectly honest, real fights thathusbands and wives have.
Where she's like, you're keeping me out, but I'm not made of glass, I won't break.
I'm like, you're Angela Bassett, no shit you're not gonna break.

(01:12:41):
She, the way, in a, you know, it is a smaller role.
She enters the film later.
and you know, she, you know, for one of the supporting characters, I think is, is one ofthe more important ones in the film, but, still limited, but holy, holy moly.
Yeah.
And, just so all of the scenes are very impactful.

(01:13:03):
I, you know, there, there are times in a biopic, a generic biopic where
the wife character can feel quite limited, shall we say, and really just like, you know,something bad happens to the hero.
And then she says, go get them.
And then they go get them.
it's like, you're like a kind of a nothing part.

(01:13:23):
That is not this movie either.
The scenes that she has all are, they're all, she gets great stuff to play.
She's She's amazing.
And obviously she's, she's a terrific actress, but
you know, looking at just, you know, from like the courtship where she's kind ofchallenging it, it's not like a totally clueless Malcolm, but he's, she knows she's

(01:13:47):
courting him well before he knows that.
Yeah.
And, know, and she's not hiding it.
And then down to here, again, she sees what's going on in the nation of Islam and how it'srelating to her and her family.
And Malcolm still doesn't want to see it.
And she is pushing him.

(01:14:08):
in that direction, which is so different than a lot of great man of history biopics.
Yeah.
Obviously part of that has to do with the real world story involved.
mean, this is just such, again, you know, Malcolm X's story is incredible, but then alsothe, the filmmaking where they, you could have easily made a version of this movie where
she was the wife.

(01:14:29):
Right.
And they didn't do that.
And it's such a better film for it.
She just brings such a force that you wouldn't want, wouldn't, you'd be a waste to justhave her in the role of the wife.
I mean, it wouldn't, you're not using what you have if you're just doing that.
Cause she is so, so good.
So Malcolm eventually does confront Elijah Muhammad about these accusations.

(01:14:53):
He investigates them.
He meets with some of the women.
He goes in and talks to Elijah Muhammad and Elijah Muhammad basically confirms them.
And it just devastates Malcolm.
And this scene plays out in the same room where the two men first met and the blinds.
I want to point out those horizontal blinds are still throwing bars across Malcolm's face.

(01:15:16):
He is still not entirely free.
I think it's in this scene that Elijah Muhammad actually says that he is unique as theleader of the nation of Islam and that none will come after him.
And I personally am like,
That's a red flag for any religious leader.
If they are irreplaceable, if they are the one and the only, I'm like, that is a red flag.

(01:15:39):
And Malcolm's faith is shattered.
And it's at this point that they dramatize the uproar around Malcolm's words about theKennedy assassination.
This is when he talks about how the chickens are coming home to roost.
And he is rebuked by Elijah Muhammad for those words.
He's told he must not speak.
publicly for 90 days on account of what he said and that he has made it hard for them.

(01:16:05):
But it's going to lead to the sort of the next chapter of this as we move into what Ithink is the third act of the movie.
And that is when Malcolm breaks from the nation of Islam and makes the pilgrimage to Meccathat is a requirement of all Muslims.
And this sequence is, you want to talk about the filmmaking changing.

(01:16:26):
It really does in this sequence when he journeys to the Middle East.
And just to go back on, you know, to that idea of epic film here is one little piecebecause we have geographically stayed very tight for most of this movie.
Here is a literal big awakening in the movie where they are on location.

(01:16:51):
Yeah.
I mean, they are, they're really there.
They're at the pyramids.
They're, they're at the Sphinx.
They are on location for, for his journey to Mecca.
And Spike Lee fought hard for this on location filming.
Like that was something that Warner Brothers did not want to pay for.
He fought hard for it, to be able to film in Egypt and Saudi Arabia.

(01:17:12):
Apparently Rob, at one point it was going to be New Jersey as an alternate filminglocation.
And as someone, I think New Jersey for Mecca is a stretch.
It's maybe a little bit and you just, need, you need to see it because this is a hugechange for the film and the character.
Yes.
Absolutely.
Because it sparks a profound change.

(01:17:34):
I should mention, Malcolm X was the first non-documentary and the first American film toshoot inside the holy city of Mecca, although they did have to use a second unit crew
because non-Muslims are not allowed inside.
And the way this film cuts it together with Denzel Washington and all, it works incrediblywell.

(01:17:55):
But this sparks a profound change.
one as profound as the one he underwent in prison.
And we see it visually by Malcolm's world opening up.
A lot of this movie, particularly in the middle part, is fairly dark.
It feels like it's a lot of overcast days or dark interiors.

(01:18:19):
But then when it goes to the Holy Land, it is bright and sunny and you can feel.
the profound change in vision, because the movie visually changes.
And that's when his words change too.

(01:18:39):
Immediately before then is the press conference where he announces the Muslim mosque inNew York City, and he says there can be no black-white unity until there is black unity.
And then he has this profound experience and returns.
I mean, this would have been the last time that the media would have heard from him.
This would have been the impression that everyone had, and the resonance from thestatements that he was making at that time would have been very, very loud.

(01:19:04):
And then he returns as a changed person.

(01:20:25):
But he also has to contend with the media.
He's walking back into the lion's den in terms of the people out to get him and all ofthat.
while he is finding internal peace finally in life, because he hasn't been at peace theentire film until this point, while he's finding internal peace, everything around him is

(01:20:45):
just sort of descending into chaos.
Yeah.
So he returns and...
is still hungering for social justice, but he now has a broader view of what that means.
And that brings us to the sort of what is the final section of the film where he has comeback.
You could feel the sword of Damocles hanging over Malcolm's head.

(01:21:10):
He is followed.
Phone calls are continually made to his home.
There's this amazing 360-degree shot where the camera is
peering right at Malcolm's face and then turns 360 degrees while you can hear the phone,the incessant phone ringing because these people are calling again and again and again

(01:21:36):
because they feel that he has betrayed the nation.
the film makes it clear that the nation of Islam is behind the threats, although there isthe strong implication that they weren't necessarily working alone because we see a lot of
other people.
We didn't mention
but he is followed by a bunch of guys who are the most obvious CIA guys you're ever goingto see.
When he's, when he's in Egypt, he is followed by, I mean, they might as well have t-shirtsthat say CIA cleavage inspection agency.

(01:22:03):
And, and, but to his credit, Malcolm knows, like he's like, even writes in his letters,like I'm being followed by someone.
I think they're probably the CIA, but once he gets back to America, it's this, it's thisthing because his world has opened up, but at the same time, there are,
elements that are now pressing upon him from all sides and he's not safe.

(01:22:25):
There's that famous shot that was in, you know, that was a photo that was in the magazine,him with the rifle looking out the window because he was in real actual danger.
It's at this point we also start to see the shooters preparing for this plannedassassination.
I want to mention that one of them is played by Giancarlo Esposito.

(01:22:46):
He plays Thomas Hagen, who is one of the
the one of the men who was actually, he's the one who was actually caught.
We have the burning of his house, which hearkens back to the burning of his family's homeby the Klan decades earlier.
And it's shot in a way that intentionally echoes that.
You know, it's interesting because in the movie makes it clear that Malcolm believed inhis final days and weeks that he was going to die.

(01:23:16):
And I was thinking to myself,
I was wondering how much of that was poetic license on the part of the filmmakers, butit's not.
Apparently that is not true.
Malcolm X told an interviewer that he was actively being targeted for assassination twodays before he was killed.
On February 19th, he did an interview where he said, I am being targeted.

(01:23:40):
And then everything converges at the Audubon ballroom.
on February 21st, 1965.
And earlier in the film, when Archie first approaches him about his betrayal, whenMalcolm's at that show, the Billy Holiday show, the first thing that Archie says when he
sits down next to him is, didn't I ever tell you not to sit with your back to the door?

(01:24:03):
Yeah.
And then leading up to the speech where the shooting happens at the Audubon, he's, youknow,
His Earl calls him and says, we need to be frisking people as they come in.
And he's like, no, no, if I can't trust my brothers, who can I trust?
So he's in effect turning his back on the door and it proves to be that it's his fate, youknow, at that point.

(01:24:28):
And as with all of that, when they are backstage, he sends his, uh, his right-hand manaway to go do something that, uh, you know, is, is mentioned as, that would be one of the
sister's jobs.
Uh, you know, and in at least the world of the movie is as if Malcolm knew this was theday and he didn't want him there.

(01:24:50):
Cause he would have dove in front of him or tried something.
He probably would have just also wound up dead as well.
Yeah.
He may not even be able to prevent it.
He may have just died along with it.
And it seemed that the forces that wanted to end Malcolm's life, you know, they wouldn't,you know, they weren't going to just try once.

(01:25:13):
they were, it was all on a collision course.
The assassination is dramatized just as it happened.
Someone in the crowd shouts out, get your hand out of my pocket.
And then there's a kerfuffle, like a flash goes off.
like a smoke thing, and then three gunmen move towards the stage and one with a sawed-offshotgun fires.

(01:25:37):
And I don't know about you guys, but it looked as if there is a small smile acrossMalcolm's face the moment before that the shotgun is fired.
Like he, almost as if he's at peace at that final moment.
And then everything turns into pandemonium.
know, mean, the more shots are fired,

(01:25:59):
You know, one of the shooters, the one played by Giancarlo Esposito is captured andwounded.
And Malcolm is killed.
Man, it's a tough thing.
I've said on other things, it's a tough picture.
I do want to mention about the assassins.

(01:26:21):
Thomas Hagen, also known as Talmage Hare, was the one who was captured in the act.
He refused to identify the other two assassins and was convicted of murder along with twoother men in 1966.
Now, the two other men spent nearly two decades in prison before they were paroled in the1980s.

(01:26:43):
Their convictions were subsequently overturned in 2021, nearly 30 years after this moviewas made, following a review.
that found that the FBI and the NYPD withheld key evidence during the trial.
And to this day, the other two assassins remain unidentified.

(01:27:07):
And the family is in 2023, believe, sued the FBI, the NYPD and CIA.
As with all types of legal matters of this nature, I think it's very slow moving.
So I don't know that I haven't seen any other news that I could find that would be, youknow, relevant.

(01:27:30):
And, you know, with all of this at the end to one aspect that's played down a little bit.
I like not, not too much, but they don't cause his family, it should be noted was there,you know, front and center for, for the assassination and witnessed it all.

(01:27:51):
And this movie doesn't, revel in the horror of that.
It doesn't shy away from it, but, I thought it was a moment of, you know,
of good restraint, cause it's already horrifying enough.
You don't really need to go too far with it.
You see the shots of the kids in the audience and you know what's coming.
mean, it's just, good God.

(01:28:16):
And then the film sort of enters the sort of the final sequence of this where we haveOzzie Davis, who obviously had been and do the right thing, reciting the eulogy that he
himself gave at Malcolm's funeral over footage of the real Malcolm and the aftermath ofhis death.
mean, Ozzie Davis,

(01:28:37):
actually gave this eulogy at Malcolm X's funeral and then, you know, he does it in themovie.
I mean, that is, man, I mean, that is, that's amazing.
That's incredible.
It's amazing to have the visuals put with the words and the way that this was cuttogether, the whole montage of footage is just perfectly tailored along with what he's

(01:29:02):
saying.
it
It sort of summarizes this very complicated man.
It summarizes this important life and in a way that humanizes him in the wake of havinglost his life and I think a really powerful way.
It's something else.
I mean, I didn't know that he was the one who actually had delivered that initially.

(01:29:26):
That's really amazing.
He actually delivered that in 1965.
It is
I'm thinking, I can't think of another, has that ever happened in film before where youhad someone who was an actor who actually had given, it's just, it's extraordinary to

(01:29:47):
think about.
I'm like, my God.
Yeah.
And more tragic connections here.
Ruby D who star, you know, was one of the stars of do the right thing.
Yep.
And was also an activist post Malcolm's assassination.
She and what Juanita Poitier, they established the committee of concerned mothers.
They raised funds to buy a house and pay educational expenses for the Shabazz family atthat time.

(01:30:12):
And they, wound up, guess, buying a large two family home in Mount Vernon, New York, youknow,
lot of connections with that time period and the art.
where a lot of this took place.
Harlem was and has historically been an epicenter of the arts and these people were hereand they were involved.

(01:30:35):
It's extraordinary.
We have the final bit, I should mention we have the final bit where we have a sequencewith teachers.
One of them played by actress Mary Alice, the other played by Nelson Mandela teachingabout Malcolm and the kids standing up in the classroom saying, I am Malcolm X.
There's an I am Spartacus moment to this where it's like we can all be, it's something wecan aspire to be and that teaching keeps this alive.

(01:31:02):
And Justin, you mentioned earlier how in 2025, the political winds have shifted where alot of these things are being discouraged from being taught, which is shameful.
It's just shameful.
This is part of our history and part of American life.

(01:31:22):
You know, that we would not talk about it is ridiculous.
Yeah, he ends it the best way that he could with those kids standing up and saying that.
It's encouraging.
It's sort of a call to action for generations to not forget these things.
And it's just horrifying that now we're trying to force kids not even to know about them.

(01:31:43):
Crazy.
Let alone to have the opportunity to forget about them.
And that call to action, a hallmark of, you know, many of Lee's early films.
Obviously we just talked about it and do the right thing.
School days, I believe, ends with the words wake up, if I'm not mistaken.
this was something, these were, you know, he was very much making activist films and notshy about it in that way.

(01:32:08):
Absolutely.
I want to end, you know, again, something we did when we talked about Do the Right Thing afew weeks ago.
want to conclude by talking about something we don't usually talk about, and that's theAcademy Awards.
Because this film, like Do the Right Thing, was nominated for two.

(01:32:29):
Yeah, just two Academy Awards.
Best Actor and Best Costume Design, and it won neither.
There were no nominations for directing, editing, production design, score, or for bestpicture.
And to me, it's particularly egregious that Denzel Washington didn't win best actor.
mean, I honestly think, first of all, I don't think you could have made this movie withouthim.

(01:32:53):
I don't think it could have been made without him.
I he's so essential.
And it is just one of the defining performances, not of his career, but of American cinemain the last part of the 20th century.
It's one of the defining performances of the nineties.
And that he didn't win.
mean, again, I know it's awards and I know awards are subjective, but man, come on.

(01:33:15):
The performance that he gives, the whole film is infused in it.
Like you don't have a film without this performance and it's extraordinary.
It's just, know, come on.
mean, best actor that year went to Al Pacino for Scent of a Woman.
Now, Al Pacino is a great actor.
Al Pacino should have won 20 years earlier for The Godfather Part II.

(01:33:39):
Scent of a Woman was not the movie that Al Pacino should have won for.
But hey, he's up on, you know, Sal's Pizzeria wall of fame, I guess.
1992 Academy Awards, also well known for one armed pushups from Jack.
Totally not related.
Yeah.

(01:33:59):
I, just, I, the awards thing, it, you know,
I mean, again, know awards are not the most important thing, but.
But they're a signifier.
just, I'm, I'm very used to, and I like what did win best picture that year, but I mean.
Unforgiven won Best Picture.
Unforgiven is a great movie.
Yeah.

(01:34:20):
I, uh, it's, or 92 I thought was, um, 19, oh no.
Cause it was the 93.
I was thinking of the 92 awards, but that's incorrect.
I should have been thinking of the 1993 awards.
So one armed pushups were not the same year as mathematics, but yeah.
Unforgiven is like, I like that picture, but I mean, it's

(01:34:43):
You know, one of those things with hindsight, like ordinary people's not a bad movie, butit's, you know, you look at raging bull and go, yeah.
mean, yeah.
But again, you know, one man's opinion.
And again, even if you say, they're both great movies, but that performance of DenzelWashington, mean, it's like there's ones, there are Oscar things that still stick in my

(01:35:09):
craw.
I'm still angry about, Ray Fiennes not winning best supporting actor for Schindler's List,Julianne Moore not winning best supporting actress for Puggy Nights.
I'm still, like, those are still ones that I'm just like, and this is on that list of,
Denzel Washington as Malcolm X.
That's a best actor performance if there ever was.

(01:35:30):
Amen.
And it happened again in 2000, I think, when Denzel lost to Spacey, I think, for AmericanBeauty.
Yeah, yeah, he was nominated for the Hurricane.
That's right, that's right, which was directed, I might add, by Norman Jewison.
So there you go.
It all comes full circle.

(01:35:51):
With that being said, Unforgiven, Malcolm X, only one of these two films has a 4K from theCriterion collection that you 100 % should get.
It's a fantastic disc.
Yeah, what all is on there?
wanted to ask you about that because you mentioned that that's how you were watching itRob
Yeah, you've got commentaries.
You've got, they've got the timeline on their events for Malcolm and some good features,as well.

(01:36:15):
There you go.
Well, I mean, hey, a 4K from the Criterion Collection is not a bad way to cement a film'slegacy.
you know, I mean, not that this film needed that validation, but I'm glad that it's in theCriterion Collection.
I'm glad they have a 4K version.
Well, I'm glad that I have it in my collection, not in some bare bones, you know, whateverdisc that was a throwaway.

(01:36:39):
Absolutely.
Well, thank you guys.
This was another just really, really interesting episode.
These last two episodes have been a little different for us.
wanted to, you know, the bonus episodes give us the opportunity to sort of talk aboutthings that we might not otherwise have had a chance to do.

(01:37:03):
And they also give us a little time to work on.
some of our, you know, the main series that we do here on Get Me Another, and we have aseries
wait a minute, Chris.
wait, is it getting hot in here?
I'm getting, I'm getting sweaty.
What's going on?
It's humid.
I'm perspiring because we will be back on Tuesday, March 25th for the first episode in ourbrand new series, Get Me Another Fatal Attraction.

(01:37:35):
My mail carrier was just really nice to me today and wanted to come inside and hang out.
I'm sure.
I think that was bad.
think they were flirting.
It's so weird.
Never, never a bad idea.
Never a bad idea.
Get Me Another Fatal Attraction will be starting Tuesday, March 25th, and we are going tobe exploring a wave of films from the late 80s and 90s showcasing all of the ways that

(01:38:02):
letting strangers into your life can be perilous.
We've got lovers from hell.
We've got roommates from hell.
We've got nannies from hell.
We've got bosses from hell.
We've got employees from hell.
It's going to be wild.
and it's going to be a lot of fun.
One hell of a time.
One hell of a time.

(01:38:22):
Perfect.
Perfect.
So join us Tuesday, March 25th for Get Me Another Fatal Attraction.
Thank you so much for listening.
Again, we are your hosts, Chris Iannacone, Rob Lemorgis and Justin Beam.
If you've enjoyed our show, please consider subscribing and following us on Blue Sky,Instagram, threads and Twitter at Get Me Another Pod.

(01:38:46):
In addition,
Check out the Justin Beam Radio Hour wherever you listen to podcasts.
And if you like the show, tell your friends about it.
Tell your enemies about it.
Tell those CIA guys following you around about it.
Actually, they probably already know.
And join us next time as we continue to explore what happens when Hollywood says, get meanother.