December 7, 2022 • 32 mins
In this podcast, we speak about passengers who travel with assistance animals and that it is illegal to refuse an assistance animal or assistance animal in training.
Guest speakers, Fran Diogo (Assistance Dogs Australia), Nick Abrahim from the NSW Taxi Council (and as a representative for the Disability Reference Group) and Kate Murdoch (former Paralympian) and her Guide Dog, Wylie, provide their valuable insights on this topic.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:09):
Welcome to Get to the Point, a podcast series by the
NSW Point to Point Transport Commissioner.
The Commissioner is the independentregulator for point to point
transport in NSW, which includestaxi, hire vehicles and rideshare
as well as tourist operators.
In this series, you'll hearfrom industry representatives
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and from subject matter experts
as we explore topics relevant to pointto point transport and work together to
ensure a safer point to point industry.
Hi, I'm your host, Marcus Binet.
Today we're speaking about passengerswho travel with assistance animals,
the role that point to point transportplays and the responsibilities of
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service providers and their drivers.
Today I'm joined by Nick Abrahamfrom the NSW Taxi Council.
He's also a representative ofthe Disability Reference Group.
G'day, Marcus.
G'day everyone.
Good to be here.
And thanks for the opportunity talkingassist all things Assistance Animals.
I'm also joined by Fran Diogofrom Assistance Dogs Australia.
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Yes.
G'day.
And thank you so much forinviting us to be here.
Thank you Marcus.
It's great to have you.
Thank you Kate.
Thank you Nick.
And Kate Murdoch, who is a massagetherapist, a former Paralympian, and
regularly travels on point to pointtransport with her guide dog, Wiley.
Hi.
Thank you so much forhaving us here today.
We're thrilled.
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Kate, the first question is to you.What do you think some of the
main issues are being someone whotravels with an Assistance Animal?
For a blind person travelling with anAssistance Animal, and I guess the
experience is going to differ for everyindividual, but some of the common issues
that I come across as a blind traveler isthings like difficulty trying to identify
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the actual vehicle you're going to.
Being charged incorrectly, being askedvery personal information at times.
Being left in unfamiliar situationsat the end of the journey.
And then up to also being refused aservice or having to wait for a driver
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that's willing to take you in the vehicle.
Probably the most common issue thatcomes across, is being denied access
into the vehicle or having to waitfor a driver that's willing, and also
then just locating where the actualvehicle is at the pickup point.
So, what do you mean bythat, locating the vehicle?
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It's a matter of trying to identify,which is the pickup car or the
taxi amongst all the other cars,and being vision impaired, I do rely
on my dog to guide me to the cars.
But at the end of theday, they are an animal.
They're not gonna know exactly which caris for me and which car isn't for me.
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Being able to be very clear which caris picking me up can be difficult.
And also with the cars being so quietthese days, you can't always tell
that there is a car waiting for you.
Yeah, and I remember you saying thatwhen we were talking before that
sometimes a car will pull up and youdon't actually know that the car's
there or the driver doesn't realisethat you are the person that they are
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there to pick up, because you don'tknow they're there or you don't know
how to let them know that you are there.
Is that something, Nick,that you see as well?
Do you hear that from drivers, that's oneof the challenges with picking people up?
Yeah, definitely.
Firstly, as we see changes inthe landscape that we operate in
particularly, around the Sydney CBDand other areas where unfortunately
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curbside space is quite a challenge.
Trying to have a legal and safelocation to be able to pick up and
drop off a passenger is one challenge.
But then when you have a person with adisability, particularly a person who
may be also using an Assistance Animal,makes it even more, because drivers
obviously always wanna go that extra mileto make sure that they drop 'them off
or pick 'them up from the point whichis most convenient for that passenger.
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So that can sometimesbe a bit of a challenge.
Also, obviously when it comes to bookedservices, it might be a bit easier
however, the convenience of rank andhail, which is great and serves a great
purpose, but from that perspective,taxis play a even more important role
with identification, particularly forthe person with an Assistance Animal.
And this is where tactile numbersand raised numbers play a vital role
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helping a person, particularly aperson who may have vision impairment
in trying to identify the vehicle.
And this is why we are very proud ofthe compliant rate that we have with
taxis displaying tactile and raisednumbers to make it easier for that person
to be able to identify the vehicle.
Yeah.
And yeah.
Thanks Nick and some of the pointsthat you raise, Kate, things like,
you don't know the cars there,you don't know how to find it.
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You can't hear it.
What are the consequences ifyou miss the car or you don't
find the car or the driver drivesaway without identifying you?
The consequences are often that thenyou're obviously running late to,
whether it's a another connectingtransport whether it's an appointment
or going to work, it's a delay in thattransport which can have that ongoing
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effect the same as any other person.
Yeah.
Just to add to that as well.
As part of the Disability ReferenceGroup that we have running, we
have obviously a range of differentpeople with different types of needs.
And just to add to Kate's point,that's a critical one where there
are those appointments that can getmissed, but these are not just a doctor
appointment that is scheduled weeks out.
These could be specialist appointmentsthat are scheduled six months or
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sometimes up to 12 months in advance.
So if a person misses thatappointment, that's vital and
that has a longer term effect
because to get back in and see thatspecialist again is critical, but also
the impact on other types of disabilities.
For example a person whomay be suffering from PTSD,
(Post Traumatic Stress Disorder).
Also we understand there are knockon effects that they have including
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feeling disorientated, anxious, stressedparticularly around the fact that
they're not getting a vehicle that theyrequire or not getting the transport
that they need, can have a significantimpact on those people as well as
suffering a wide range of disabilities.
Yeah.
So Fran, being with AssistanceAnimals, why is it good?
How do they help people?
There's a range of assistance dogs.
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So in Assistance Dogs Australiaprograms, for example, we've got
Assistance dogs supporting clientsliving with Post Traumatic Stress
Disorder, like Nick has mentioned.
These are policemen or ex-service men thatmaybe couldn't leave the house for over
two years, couldn't go to places that theywere used to going before they acquired
the trauma through their workplace.
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And then getting the dog meansthey can actually go to places they
can focus on the dog more so thanwhat's going on in their heads.
They've got the dog there to help themregulate their emotions if they're
feeling anxious about leaving the house.
We've got dogs for autism.
These are parent handlers helping theirchildren regulate more, being able
to get out of the house more as well.
Being involved in day to day activitiesand just do them independently.
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We've got a range of programs, butwe've got dementia dogs (like Nick
has mentioned) we've, had someassisting people that would rely
less on their carers as well goingon certain places more independently.
But there are also other types ofassistance dogs that we are aware of,
for example, medical alert dogs.
There could be someone that suffersfrom a seizure that is a dog there to
prevent them knocking their head onsomewhere so they can anticipate up to
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40 minutes before a seizure, and alert.
There are diabetes alert dogs.
There are a range of AssistanceAnimals these days that I think
people should be aware of.
The disability might not necessarilybe a hundred percent visible,
with our physically diverse clients.
Of course they might need toask for point to point vehicle
that's suitable for a wheelchair.
But again, it is just a matter ofunderstanding there's a variety of
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disabilities and people might need thedog to be able to do those activities.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so one of the challengesthen that raises is that Kate's
dogs obviously a guide dog.
And Kate, if you were to see it.
It has a particular type of a harness sothat it's identifiable as a guide dog?
Yes it is.
Yeah.
It's quite clearly distinguished as aguide dog with a particular harness type.
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Carries a medallion with him as well.
So it shows hisregistration as a guide dog.
But not all AssistanceAnimals do that, do they?
Yeah.
The other range of assistance dogswould have an identifiable jacket.
So if they're learning in AssistanceDogs Australia program, we have an
'L' jacket, where they're a learner.
They're learning how to perform that task.
So they essentially would needto perform that task in different
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environments, different vehicles, sothey can get used to that exposure
and they can then service the client.
If they're qualified they wouldhave a 'qualified jacket'.
So would have just the companylogo that is supporting that client
and they would have their licence,which is renewed annually.
So there's always an expiry date,and they've got an ID tag that
goes into their collar, (sameas Kate has mentioned, as well).
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So they should be recognisableas Assistance Animals?
Yeah.
Yes, they should.
From personal experience, not allAssistance Animals do wear a harness
or a coat, or an identifier, ormay not be as clearly obvious.
Yeah.
as some of the other ones.
I have personal experiencesas a former driver myself.
Unfortunately, I did learn the hardway in my early days of driving.
But one of the big lessons that I havelearnt is also the fact that not making
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any assumptions, I think is reallyimportant, and asking a question.
These passengers, have had a lotof experiences and are there to
assist us also in helping us withour awareness and understanding.
So by asking the right questions,and Fran mentioned the licence, which
as I understand is called the PublicAccess Licence, that they must carry
and a driver does have a right andis entitled to ask the passenger if
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they could show the Public AccessLicence if there is ever any doubt.
We always encourage drivers, obviously,to be respectful and sensitive as to how
and when they ask the passenger for that.
Yep.
But there is their supportthere and assistance.
But I think.
If you're ever end doubt, just ask.
Yeah.
Asking the passenger goes a long way.
And passengers totally understandabout why a question may be asked.
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Yep.
And are there to help and assist.
Yeah, that's right.
And I was gonna say, so Kate,how can drivers help you?
What can they do to make your lifeeasier or to make any life easier of
people travelling with assistance animals?
Sure.
Personally I've had some absolutelywonderful experiences with drivers
and I've made some very goodfriends as well through the whole
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point to point travel program.
The most positive experiences hasbeen with drivers that just do
genuinely care about the wellbeing ofme and the animal and being aware of
different programs that are in placeto support people with disabilities.
So being the Taxi TransportSubsidy Scheme as one example.
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So just having a knowledge about whatthe best practice is there, but also
just being friendly and being yourself.
A hundred percent agree.
If you're not sure, ask questions,usually the person is very happy to
talk openly about what would help them.
But definitely just caring, asking,is there anything you can do
when you get to the destination?
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Is there anything I can do to makesure you're in a comfortable position
for the next part of your journey.
Very simple steps that hasmade a huge difference.
Yeah.
Like what Nick is saying just askingquestions, finding out how they can help.
Just, yeah.
And with the dog etiquette, justignoring the dog as much as possible.
And then helping those, becausesome drivers absolutely are huge dog
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lovers and they get very excited.
It's quite comforting to come into aspace where you do feel very welcomed.
But it's also then helping us to keepthe dog very professional as well,
so that when there's other peoplethat aren't as keen in having a dog
in the vehicle, that the dog willbehave as professionally as possible.
So it is a bit of teamwork there, wherewe are working together so that everyone wins.
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Yeah.
Nick, you were gonna say something?
I was just gonna ask Kate, and it's greatto know that, and obviously understanding
that the role of the Assistance Animal andthe dog in this case has a role to play.
And we talk about driversassisting the passenger.
Is there a point where..
We know drivers love to help, I knowthat, which is fantastic, but is there
a point where drivers can probablytry too hard or too much to help.
Where, we've gotta be very carefulwith that so that, it doesn't, impede
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on the personal space of the passengeror the role or the function that the
dog may play in this particular case?
There's no harm in being too helpful.
I think the main thing is though ifsomeone says, no thanks, I'm okay.
It's just to respect that and listen tothat, and then trust them when they're
saying, I'm actually ok for the momentand you don't need to do anything more
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and to not take it personally, butI think offering help is wonderful.
I'd rather be offered too much helpthan not enough help in that case.
So it's, I think, yeah, just listeningand being respectful for what the
person is saying in that moment.
Cause there can be lots ofdifferent scenarios that could
be talking about here, but onthe whole, people do wanna help.
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Keep that going, absolutely.
And Fran, you were gonna say something?
Yeah, I'm with you Kate, and from whatI've heard over the years from our
clients and from, I guess understandingthe mental health aspects of the support
of the animal getting to a vehicle,could be a trigger for a client that
was involved in a number of accidentsor rescuing people from vehicles.
So I think if the drivers understand aswell that person might be going through
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a tough time, just getting on a vehicle,relaxing during the journey, and the dog
might be able to doing animal AssistedIntervention Contact (skills that we
teach to help the client calm down).
So if they're focused on theirdog and they're just taking a
minute, I guess it's a visual cue.
So yes, they need a moment.
Or if the dog, if it's a child onthe spectrum it struggles a lot with
the noises of the vehicle the trafficnoises, and he needs a dog to intervene
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in their lap or do something like that.
If the dog is climbing up on theseat for that matter I guess it's
understanding that's a skill thatwe train to settle the child.
So if the parent is directing the dog todo it, or if the dog's initiating it, It's
picking up on the emotional needs of theclient, and I guess that's a moment where
the driver can just, I guess respect it.
They're having a moment there.
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Let's let the animal dowhat it's trained to do.
And then of course after whateverit's needed, it'll be able to, I
guess they'll be able to convey themessage, oh, we're okay, thank you.
Or, it's understanding,subtle communication aspects.
You've touched on there, what somemisconceptions or misunderstandings that
people have about Assistance Animals.
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What other ones are there?
When people see someone with anAssistance Animal, what are some of
the things that they misunderstand?
And I know one of them, they're pets,when actually they're not pets, or
that they're not trained properly or...
One of the misconceptions is a dogis trained and it would be like a
robot, so it would respond in a verymechanical way to different situations.
But no, they are emotionalbeings like we are.
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They experience emotions, so we trainthem to be emotionally solid when
they're travelling through differentcontexts in the world, and that
includes travelling in the vehicle.
So they are trained, they'resocialised very early on, from six
weeks of age we might be alreadydoing things with the litter.
And then from eight weeks of age,we train them into going into
different vehicles, just being ableto board under control and exit under
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control, travel safely, stay calm.
But they are essentially emotional beings.
So if they're having a hard time andthey are somewhat misbehaving the
handler is trained as well to respondand to help the animal calm itself down.
But they are emotional beings like us.
So we might be having a tough day.
One day we're not performingour jobs exceptionally.
I guess having that understanding,but knowing that the handler
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gets the training as well.
So our clients are trained torespond and support the dog as
much as the dogs are trained torespond and support the clients.
So yeah, there's a lot of.
Exposure and repetitioninvolved in training them.
And then with the clients, wedo extensive training when we're
placing the dog with the client.
But if it's a new team, they mightbe slightly more nervous when they're
encountering these situations.
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And then of course they get into thatrelationship, that bond, and they get more
comfortable as they navigate the world.
And we support them with yearly training,yearly check-ins, and ongoing support
for the lifetime they've got the dog.
So I guess understanding that,we're always learning and evolving.
The assistants teams, the teams wecall them, I guess with client and
dog, are evolving and learning anddeveloping their relationship further.
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And Nick, you are champingat the bit there..
It's an important point, Marcus, thequestion that you ask around some of the
views, and I think Fran touched on mostof them, but there's a few other common
ones, unfortunately, that drivers maycarry in relation to miss perceptions
around the, and Fran mentioned about thepet, or you mentioned about the pets.
They are not pets.
Let's make that very clear.
There's an important role andfunction that Assistance Animals
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play particularly for their handlers.
The fact that the dogs can dirty or soilthe taxi is definitely an incorrect thing.
And the actual fact I would go outto say that an Assistance Animal
would be cleaner than a lot ofother passengers that drives carry.
Let me tell you, they are trained inmeticulous way that particularly on a
Friday, Saturday night, I guarantee you.
You're not gonna get an intoxicatedAssistance Animal making a mess in
your car, let me assure you that.
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But a lot of animals you pick up on aSaturday night that don't have four legs.
Hahaha
On a serious note, in relation tobeliefs and religious beliefs, or,
I don't like pets, or it's againstmy belief, or any of those views.
The bit that Fran talked about the doggetting out of control and so forth.
All incorrect.
And Fran, as I understand it, isit a couple of years that, that
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a dog goes through training?
It's quite an intense, I'll let Franmaybe talk to that, but to ensure that
they are, that their Assistance Animalsare well behaved and are actually are
cleaner and performing a very vital role.
Accredited assistance dog Schoolsand guide dog Schools will have
very very clear protocols aboutthe welfare, the care of the dog.
The training, like I said, startsfrom eight weeks of age, and
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they might be around 18 to 24months old when they get placed.
So there's a lot that goes into that.
At ADA for example, theyare in puppy education.
12 to 13 months, and then they have 21weeks of advanced training and they're
assessed for the different roles.
But we are constantly assessing thedog's behaviour, how they interact, how
they, respond in different environments.
And then, like I said, we doextensive training with our clients
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and that dog will go on to work withthe client for all the way up to
when they're like nine years old.
But yeah, they're trained to toileton queue, they're trained to hop on
and hop off vehicles under control.
They are exceptionally welltrained for the work that they do.
So I guess in a way, a driver wouldpossibly identify a dog there's not
genuinely an assistance dog, andunfortunately that does happen out there.
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So I guess it's important to say this,like I said, the important identification
points that a registered accreditedassistance dog will have are important and
I guess part of our industry advocacy isto get more regulation and more support.
The genuine clients that are navigatingthe world with the Assistance
Dogs are welcome and treated withrespect and dignity because they're
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deserving of being able to live theirlives and do things on their own
and have the animal support them.
Yeah.
And just a quick question, they're notall Assistance Animals are Labradors.
That's right isn't it?
Yeah.
So in our program itself, we'vegot a diverse amount of breeds.
Majority are Labradors or GoldenRetrievers, or the crosses between Marcus.
But we have placed Cavoodle, aGroodle, an Australian Shepherd.
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We have a Bernese Mountaindog in our program servicing a
client with PTSD in Victoria.
Isn't that a big dog?
It's a big dog, yeah.
Yeah.
Bernie's his name.
So in America they've used a lot ofBernese Mountain dogs to help clients that
transfer from the wheelchair onto anothersurface, because of course, they're sturdy
enough, they can hold a stand position,they can be used to be transferred to and
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from their, the wheelchair to the seat.
Bernie ended up getting to thePost Traumatic Stress Disorder
career because of many things.
A lot of our clients do rely on pointto point transport because they don't
like driving or they're unable to drive.
You might have to accommodate aBernese Mountain dog depending
on the client's needs.
But I guess as a whole, the dog hasbeen trained and will be behaving
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according to the accreditation standardsthat we identified as suitable.
And like I said, we dore-accreditation every year as well
as the guide dog schools will do.
So the dog is obviously alwaysworking to the optimal performance.
And if there's things to address, likeI said, dogs are not robots, we might
have to do retraining or support, butorganisations that are working according
to the guidelines we're given, are doingthat constantly to improve the welfare of
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the dog and the client at the same time.
Yeah.
Kate, what's your dog, Wiley.
It's Wiley, isn't it?
Yes.
So what's he trained to do when hegets into a point to point vehicle?
He is trained to get me to the door.
Usually it's the frontdoor of the vehicle.
And then, either depending on where thepreference is to sit for me, often it's
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to sit in the front of the vehicle andhave the dog then sit in the footwell.
So I'll get in the car first,move the seat back, and then
Wiley will come and curl up at myfeet and just sits very quietly.
Yeah.
Sometimes as the dogs do age thoughmobility of the dog can differ a
bit, so getting into the car can bea little bit different or it might
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be easier for the dog to sit in thefront than in the back footwell.
But, generally it's a prettyeasy and smooth transition.
Yeah so the point is that they don'tget in, jump around, make a mess.
They're very specifically trainedto get in, to sit, to be still.
Yes.
Yep.
Stay quietly until the end of the journey.
And then they're trained to get outfirst and then take us on our merry way.
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They won't interact with thedriver unless the driver is
obviously doing things to distract.
Then yeah, that's when it canbe a little bit more vocal.
Is there any preferred location orposition that you prefer, or a person
with Assistance Animal prefers to sit in?
In the vehicle?
Front is preferable because there'sjust a bit more space than in the back.
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And then you can, if you'recarrying a bag or whatever, then
that can go into the back as well.
But the the front is preferred,but you can certainly move.
You can sit in the back, butthe driver would need to assist
in moving the seat forward,
as it can be the both the base of the seatand the, the back of the seat to be moved
forward to give as much space as possible.
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So ultimately, obviously the preferencesits with the passenger and where
they are comfortable and like to sit.
But also if a driver'sever unsure, just ask.
Would that be right?
Just ask the question.
Yep.
Please ask.
Please ask.
Yep.
One issue that you mentioned when we weretalking before was you might be waiting
on the side of the road for a car, andwhen the car comes, because you don't
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move towards the car, the driver is notsure that you are the right person, and
they might drive away without realisingthat you are there, because you don't
obviously know that they're there.
How could they help in that situation?
What would a driver be bestto do if that was the case?
It would be wonderful if a drivercould acknowledge that they're there.
So whether it's coming out of the taxiand approaching you and saying, I'm here.
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Hello.
Or whether it's winding down thewindow and calling out my name.
That, that's just some of the mostbasic things that can be done,
which just really helps a lot for.
For me to be able to identify that thisis the right vehicle and it's safe for
me to go forward, and that will thenalso prompt the dog to go into gear
and to guide me to the vehicle as well.
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Nick, you were gonna say something?
Yeah.
Can I just to help facilitate that betterconnection between the driver and the
passenger and the Assistance Animal.
I think there are two key roles herethat I think if done properly can
actually help deliver better outcomes.
One, from a passenger perspective,obviously ensuring at the time of the
booking that you state that you dohave an Assistance Animal which can be
easily identified from that perspective.
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But I also encourage drivers.
Make you check all the details,whether it be on your screen or on your
app, making sure that you understandall the details of the booking,
to then understand and see that thisperson may have an Assistance Animal
or may have an mobility device or someother form of assistance that they need,
which also means that you need to makesure that you understand that you're
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prepared to go out and provide a levelof assistance for that passenger.
Little bit of information can go along way in helping that facilitation.
Yeah, that's a very goodpoint actually, Nick.
So Fran, when training, you'reobviously training Assistance Animals.
Do you have to train the peopleto use the Assistance Animals?
Cause I'm thinking of the kind of thingslike Nick says, if I'm ringing up to book
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a cab, tell them, I have an AssistanceAnimal, which is fairly obvious.
Yeah.
But do you have a training almostfor the people who have the animals?
Yeah.
So we, we run a 10 days class whenthe clients first get their dog.
And of course we go through anintensive interview process matching
the right dog to the right client.
And then we, when we go to that point.
We do pre-training and then 10 daysof a class where the client's learning
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how to use the dog in the differentlife scenarios that they would need to.
So we do encourage them to communicatethat if they're making a booking.
There are also circumstances wherethey might just have to present
themselves in some situationsand ask for help or support.
And I guess this is where they expectthat there's the understanding that
they might need the support as well.
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Just on that note too, and I agree withyou, Fran and Nick, but sometimes there
are avenues where you can't actuallynotify when you're making a booking
that you do have an assistant GuideDog or assistant dog, so often with the
automated, the taxis, if your callinga taxi, it's a press one if you wanna
be picked up from this destinationor two if you're ready to go now.
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So there's just not that optionto do it unless you go through and
actually speak to a, to an operator.
But I think it is a bitbetter for the shared cars.
Is it's slightly differentfor the rideshare providers,
is that what you're saying?
Yes.
I can confirm, the passengerdoes have the option.
If you don't like using theautomated system, you can go do the
option of talking to an operator.
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So please, I want to make sure thatpassengers aren't discouraged from,
if there's a need for additionalinstructions or information to choose
the option to actually talk to anoperator because it's important
that they do have that information.
Just on that point too, Nick,
There has been experiences where youtalk to an operator and you disclose
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I've got a guide dog, and they willsay, that's okay, they're allowed.
We don't need to tell the driver.
So there are mixed messages, Ithink there, so and that's fine.
It'd be good for drivers tobe aware that sometimes that
information won't come across.
So there might be a scenario wherethey're picking up a person with an
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Assistance Animal and not knowingbeforehand that was gonna be the case.
That's good insight and feedback,Kate, because what we do need to have
is consistency across the industry.
So if there's further training andeducation we need to have with call
centers and service providers, I thinkit's a good call out and something
I think, again, we always look atcontinual improvement in this space
and if that's something that weneed to work on to get right, then
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we're committed to make that happen.
So thanks for the feedback.
Agreed.
Good call Nick.
Yeah.
If I may add something as well.
I think a lot of people do recogniseguide dogs as an Assistance Animal
more so than an assistance dog becauseof the misconceptions and the lack of
education sometimes available to peopleabout these other disabilities and
how they impact someone and how theyimpair them and how they really need
(27:20):
the assistance to be able to do things.
We appreciate the opportunityto continue educating everyone.
There's different types of disabilities,there's different types of needs, and
the clients, if they're asking to havethe animal there supporting them, and
they've gone to the extent of gettingan assistance dog, getting trained,
waiting sometimes, in our case, waitingsometimes a little while to get the
(27:41):
animal accredited and trained with them.
Yeah, it goes a long way for themthat they're recognised and they're
accepted and they're included.
Yeah.
And that's one of the important points tomake that Assistance Animals are not just
Guide dogs and they're not just Labradors.
They can be any number.
Different breeds.
Yeah.
Different breeds.
Yeah.
That's right.
Just in closing, Nick, do you haveanything, last thing you want to say?
Any particular points that, yeah.
(28:02):
Relevant?
Thanks, Marcus.
It's been a great conversation.
Just a couple of key pointsI'd like to finish up on.
One is right on the outset.
Fran noted the benefits and wonderfulbenefits that Assistance Animals
provide for the handlers and thepassengers, which is great, but
that's all pointless and meaningless
if they can't use and access thetransport modes to get them to
(28:25):
enjoy that better quality of life.
So the role, that point to pointservices, including taxis, play in
helping facilitate that connection betweenthe passenger and enjoying that better
quality of life is absolutely vital.
So the big message up to drivers,particularly when you do sign up to
drive in the point to point industry,you do sign up to drive a taxi.
There's a commitment that you'remaking to follow the rules, the
(28:46):
laws, and the regulations thatcome with providing that service.
Now we know driving point to pointservice, in this case a taxi, has
many rewards and benefits in doing so.
And fulfilling your obligations,particularly around ensuring that
you love every fare, and that's thepoint, particularly with a person
with a disability, particularly witha person who relies on an Assistance
(29:08):
Animal to get around, it is animportant role that you need to play.
And if you are not prepared to fulfillthat obligation, I'll ask you to think
twice about joining this industry becausethere are laws and there are regulations.
And this is one of the consequenceswe probably haven't discussed
around refusing a fare for aperson with an Assistance Animal.
We're talking about fines of up to $1,100for a driver who may refuse service.
(29:30):
We've heard about the knock oneffects that it has on the passenger,
but there's also other consequencesaround potentially being dismissed
from being able to provide furtherservices or dismissed from the industry.
So there are serious consequencesfor those that do choose
to not do the right thing.
On a positive note, we do provide awonderful service for people with a
disability, and we are proud of that,and it is a very rewarding industry.
(29:53):
And I encourage drivers to, come in, dothe right thing, but most importantly,
help those passengers with a disabilitymake a difference to their life and help
them fulfill that role of getting outand enjoying that good quality of life.
Thanks for that Nick.
And that is a point that I did skip over.
Yeah, there's that statement about thelegislation that point to point drivers
are not allowed to refuse to carry apassenger who has an Assistance Animal.
(30:15):
Yeah.
It's under the Point toPoint Transport Regulation.
Yeah.
But it also sits under theDisability Discrimination Act.
So there are a number of laws thereto protect the passengers and we
need to make sure we are aware ofthose and we fulfill our obligations.
Absolutely.
Good.
Thanks Nick.
Any final closing comments?
Fran?
We just appreciate the opportunityof educating the society further and
it's any chance we've got to speak,and we are very passionate about the
(30:38):
human animal bonds, how our dogs aretransforming the lives of so many clients.
We just wanted to say thanks for includingus in this conversation and yeah,
Thanks.
It's been good to have you and Kate.
Yes, I agree.
Thank you so much for this discussion.
It's been absolutely wonderful andI mirror Nick in what he's saying.
(30:59):
The role that drivers havein the lives of people with a
disability is just so important.
I personally wouldn't have been ableto work or train or do the things that
I need to do in order to get throughmy day to day activities without the
support of these wonderful drivers.
So please don't underestimate thevalue that what you offer us has
(31:23):
on our lives and our community.
So it's the most efficient and safestway for us to travel, and we truly do
thank you for considering our needs andfor looking to grow as well as a driver.
Thank you again, Kate, Fran,and Nick for being here today to
talk about this important topic.
And I hope the session has beeninformative for our listeners.
(31:47):
If you want more information, we'vedeveloped a toolkit and a series of
shareable videos on Assistance Animals,which are available on our website.
A video version of this podcast andtranscript is also available, so
visit us at pointtopoint.nsw.gov.au.
If you've found this information useful,please feel free to share this recording.
(32:12):
My name's Marcus Binet, andthis podcast is brought to you
by the Point to Point TransportCommissioner, thanks for joining us.
(00:09):
Welcome to Get to the Point, a podcast series by the
NSW Point to Point Transport Commissioner.
The Commissioner is the independentregulator for point to point
transport in NSW, which includestaxi, hire vehicles and rideshare
as well as tourist operators.
In this series, you'll hearfrom industry representatives
(00:33):
and from subject matter experts
as we explore topics relevant to pointto point transport and work together to
ensure a safer point to point industry.
Hi, I'm your host, Marcus Binet.
Today we're speaking about passengerswho travel with assistance animals,
the role that point to point transportplays and the responsibilities of
(00:56):
service providers and their drivers.
Today I'm joined by Nick Abrahamfrom the NSW Taxi Council.
He's also a representative ofthe Disability Reference Group.
G'day, Marcus.
G'day everyone.
Good to be here.
And thanks for the opportunity talkingassist all things Assistance Animals.
I'm also joined by Fran Diogofrom Assistance Dogs Australia.
(01:17):
Yes.
G'day.
And thank you so much forinviting us to be here.
Thank you Marcus.
It's great to have you.
Thank you Kate.
Thank you Nick.
And Kate Murdoch, who is a massagetherapist, a former Paralympian, and
regularly travels on point to pointtransport with her guide dog, Wiley.
Hi.
Thank you so much forhaving us here today.
We're thrilled.
(01:38):
Kate, the first question is to you.What do you think some of the
main issues are being someone whotravels with an Assistance Animal?
For a blind person travelling with anAssistance Animal, and I guess the
experience is going to differ for everyindividual, but some of the common issues
that I come across as a blind traveler isthings like difficulty trying to identify
(02:02):
the actual vehicle you're going to.
Being charged incorrectly, being askedvery personal information at times.
Being left in unfamiliar situationsat the end of the journey.
And then up to also being refused aservice or having to wait for a driver
(02:22):
that's willing to take you in the vehicle.
Probably the most common issue thatcomes across, is being denied access
into the vehicle or having to waitfor a driver that's willing, and also
then just locating where the actualvehicle is at the pickup point.
So, what do you mean bythat, locating the vehicle?
(02:46):
It's a matter of trying to identify,which is the pickup car or the
taxi amongst all the other cars,and being vision impaired, I do rely
on my dog to guide me to the cars.
But at the end of theday, they are an animal.
They're not gonna know exactly which caris for me and which car isn't for me.
(03:08):
Being able to be very clear which caris picking me up can be difficult.
And also with the cars being so quietthese days, you can't always tell
that there is a car waiting for you.
Yeah, and I remember you saying thatwhen we were talking before that
sometimes a car will pull up and youdon't actually know that the car's
there or the driver doesn't realisethat you are the person that they are
(03:29):
there to pick up, because you don'tknow they're there or you don't know
how to let them know that you are there.
Is that something, Nick,that you see as well?
Do you hear that from drivers, that's oneof the challenges with picking people up?
Yeah, definitely.
Firstly, as we see changes inthe landscape that we operate in
particularly, around the Sydney CBDand other areas where unfortunately
(03:50):
curbside space is quite a challenge.
Trying to have a legal and safelocation to be able to pick up and
drop off a passenger is one challenge.
But then when you have a person with adisability, particularly a person who
may be also using an Assistance Animal,makes it even more, because drivers
obviously always wanna go that extra mileto make sure that they drop 'them off
or pick 'them up from the point whichis most convenient for that passenger.
(04:13):
So that can sometimesbe a bit of a challenge.
Also, obviously when it comes to bookedservices, it might be a bit easier
however, the convenience of rank andhail, which is great and serves a great
purpose, but from that perspective,taxis play a even more important role
with identification, particularly forthe person with an Assistance Animal.
And this is where tactile numbersand raised numbers play a vital role
(04:34):
helping a person, particularly aperson who may have vision impairment
in trying to identify the vehicle.
And this is why we are very proud ofthe compliant rate that we have with
taxis displaying tactile and raisednumbers to make it easier for that person
to be able to identify the vehicle.
Yeah.
And yeah.
Thanks Nick and some of the pointsthat you raise, Kate, things like,
you don't know the cars there,you don't know how to find it.
(04:56):
You can't hear it.
What are the consequences ifyou miss the car or you don't
find the car or the driver drivesaway without identifying you?
The consequences are often that thenyou're obviously running late to,
whether it's a another connectingtransport whether it's an appointment
or going to work, it's a delay in thattransport which can have that ongoing
(05:21):
effect the same as any other person.
Yeah.
Just to add to that as well.
As part of the Disability ReferenceGroup that we have running, we
have obviously a range of differentpeople with different types of needs.
And just to add to Kate's point,that's a critical one where there
are those appointments that can getmissed, but these are not just a doctor
appointment that is scheduled weeks out.
These could be specialist appointmentsthat are scheduled six months or
(05:43):
sometimes up to 12 months in advance.
So if a person misses thatappointment, that's vital and
that has a longer term effect
because to get back in and see thatspecialist again is critical, but also
the impact on other types of disabilities.
For example a person whomay be suffering from PTSD,
(Post Traumatic Stress Disorder).
Also we understand there are knockon effects that they have including
(06:06):
feeling disorientated, anxious, stressedparticularly around the fact that
they're not getting a vehicle that theyrequire or not getting the transport
that they need, can have a significantimpact on those people as well as
suffering a wide range of disabilities.
Yeah.
So Fran, being with AssistanceAnimals, why is it good?
How do they help people?
There's a range of assistance dogs.
(06:28):
So in Assistance Dogs Australiaprograms, for example, we've got
Assistance dogs supporting clientsliving with Post Traumatic Stress
Disorder, like Nick has mentioned.
These are policemen or ex-service men thatmaybe couldn't leave the house for over
two years, couldn't go to places that theywere used to going before they acquired
the trauma through their workplace.
(06:48):
And then getting the dog meansthey can actually go to places they
can focus on the dog more so thanwhat's going on in their heads.
They've got the dog there to help themregulate their emotions if they're
feeling anxious about leaving the house.
We've got dogs for autism.
These are parent handlers helping theirchildren regulate more, being able
to get out of the house more as well.
Being involved in day to day activitiesand just do them independently.
(07:10):
We've got a range of programs, butwe've got dementia dogs (like Nick
has mentioned) we've, had someassisting people that would rely
less on their carers as well goingon certain places more independently.
But there are also other types ofassistance dogs that we are aware of,
for example, medical alert dogs.
There could be someone that suffersfrom a seizure that is a dog there to
prevent them knocking their head onsomewhere so they can anticipate up to
(07:33):
40 minutes before a seizure, and alert.
There are diabetes alert dogs.
There are a range of AssistanceAnimals these days that I think
people should be aware of.
The disability might not necessarilybe a hundred percent visible,
with our physically diverse clients.
Of course they might need toask for point to point vehicle
that's suitable for a wheelchair.
But again, it is just a matter ofunderstanding there's a variety of
(07:54):
disabilities and people might need thedog to be able to do those activities.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so one of the challengesthen that raises is that Kate's
dogs obviously a guide dog.
And Kate, if you were to see it.
It has a particular type of a harness sothat it's identifiable as a guide dog?
Yes it is.
Yeah.
It's quite clearly distinguished as aguide dog with a particular harness type.
(08:17):
Carries a medallion with him as well.
So it shows hisregistration as a guide dog.
But not all AssistanceAnimals do that, do they?
Yeah.
The other range of assistance dogswould have an identifiable jacket.
So if they're learning in AssistanceDogs Australia program, we have an
'L' jacket, where they're a learner.
They're learning how to perform that task.
So they essentially would needto perform that task in different
(08:39):
environments, different vehicles, sothey can get used to that exposure
and they can then service the client.
If they're qualified they wouldhave a 'qualified jacket'.
So would have just the companylogo that is supporting that client
and they would have their licence,which is renewed annually.
So there's always an expiry date,and they've got an ID tag that
goes into their collar, (sameas Kate has mentioned, as well).
(09:01):
So they should be recognisableas Assistance Animals?
Yeah.
Yes, they should.
From personal experience, not allAssistance Animals do wear a harness
or a coat, or an identifier, ormay not be as clearly obvious.
Yeah.
as some of the other ones.
I have personal experiencesas a former driver myself.
Unfortunately, I did learn the hardway in my early days of driving.
But one of the big lessons that I havelearnt is also the fact that not making
(09:25):
any assumptions, I think is reallyimportant, and asking a question.
These passengers, have had a lotof experiences and are there to
assist us also in helping us withour awareness and understanding.
So by asking the right questions,and Fran mentioned the licence, which
as I understand is called the PublicAccess Licence, that they must carry
and a driver does have a right andis entitled to ask the passenger if
(09:47):
they could show the Public AccessLicence if there is ever any doubt.
We always encourage drivers, obviously,to be respectful and sensitive as to how
and when they ask the passenger for that.
Yep.
But there is their supportthere and assistance.
But I think.
If you're ever end doubt, just ask.
Yeah.
Asking the passenger goes a long way.
And passengers totally understandabout why a question may be asked.
(10:07):
Yep.
And are there to help and assist.
Yeah, that's right.
And I was gonna say, so Kate,how can drivers help you?
What can they do to make your lifeeasier or to make any life easier of
people travelling with assistance animals?
Sure.
Personally I've had some absolutelywonderful experiences with drivers
and I've made some very goodfriends as well through the whole
(10:30):
point to point travel program.
The most positive experiences hasbeen with drivers that just do
genuinely care about the wellbeing ofme and the animal and being aware of
different programs that are in placeto support people with disabilities.
So being the Taxi TransportSubsidy Scheme as one example.
(10:52):
So just having a knowledge about whatthe best practice is there, but also
just being friendly and being yourself.
A hundred percent agree.
If you're not sure, ask questions,usually the person is very happy to
talk openly about what would help them.
But definitely just caring, asking,is there anything you can do
when you get to the destination?
(11:12):
Is there anything I can do to makesure you're in a comfortable position
for the next part of your journey.
Very simple steps that hasmade a huge difference.
Yeah.
Like what Nick is saying just askingquestions, finding out how they can help.
Just, yeah.
And with the dog etiquette, justignoring the dog as much as possible.
And then helping those, becausesome drivers absolutely are huge dog
(11:35):
lovers and they get very excited.
It's quite comforting to come into aspace where you do feel very welcomed.
But it's also then helping us to keepthe dog very professional as well,
so that when there's other peoplethat aren't as keen in having a dog
in the vehicle, that the dog willbehave as professionally as possible.
So it is a bit of teamwork there, wherewe are working together so that everyone wins.
(12:00):
Yeah.
Nick, you were gonna say something?
I was just gonna ask Kate, and it's greatto know that, and obviously understanding
that the role of the Assistance Animal andthe dog in this case has a role to play.
And we talk about driversassisting the passenger.
Is there a point where..
We know drivers love to help, I knowthat, which is fantastic, but is there
a point where drivers can probablytry too hard or too much to help.
Where, we've gotta be very carefulwith that so that, it doesn't, impede
(12:23):
on the personal space of the passengeror the role or the function that the
dog may play in this particular case?
There's no harm in being too helpful.
I think the main thing is though ifsomeone says, no thanks, I'm okay.
It's just to respect that and listen tothat, and then trust them when they're
saying, I'm actually ok for the momentand you don't need to do anything more
(12:44):
and to not take it personally, butI think offering help is wonderful.
I'd rather be offered too much helpthan not enough help in that case.
So it's, I think, yeah, just listeningand being respectful for what the
person is saying in that moment.
Cause there can be lots ofdifferent scenarios that could
be talking about here, but onthe whole, people do wanna help.
(13:08):
Keep that going, absolutely.
And Fran, you were gonna say something?
Yeah, I'm with you Kate, and from whatI've heard over the years from our
clients and from, I guess understandingthe mental health aspects of the support
of the animal getting to a vehicle,could be a trigger for a client that
was involved in a number of accidentsor rescuing people from vehicles.
So I think if the drivers understand aswell that person might be going through
(13:30):
a tough time, just getting on a vehicle,relaxing during the journey, and the dog
might be able to doing animal AssistedIntervention Contact (skills that we
teach to help the client calm down).
So if they're focused on theirdog and they're just taking a
minute, I guess it's a visual cue.
So yes, they need a moment.
Or if the dog, if it's a child onthe spectrum it struggles a lot with
the noises of the vehicle the trafficnoises, and he needs a dog to intervene
(13:52):
in their lap or do something like that.
If the dog is climbing up on theseat for that matter I guess it's
understanding that's a skill thatwe train to settle the child.
So if the parent is directing the dog todo it, or if the dog's initiating it, It's
picking up on the emotional needs of theclient, and I guess that's a moment where
the driver can just, I guess respect it.
They're having a moment there.
(14:12):
Let's let the animal dowhat it's trained to do.
And then of course after whateverit's needed, it'll be able to, I
guess they'll be able to convey themessage, oh, we're okay, thank you.
Or, it's understanding,subtle communication aspects.
You've touched on there, what somemisconceptions or misunderstandings that
people have about Assistance Animals.
(14:32):
What other ones are there?
When people see someone with anAssistance Animal, what are some of
the things that they misunderstand?
And I know one of them, they're pets,when actually they're not pets, or
that they're not trained properly or...
One of the misconceptions is a dogis trained and it would be like a
robot, so it would respond in a verymechanical way to different situations.
But no, they are emotionalbeings like we are.
(14:54):
They experience emotions, so we trainthem to be emotionally solid when
they're travelling through differentcontexts in the world, and that
includes travelling in the vehicle.
So they are trained, they'resocialised very early on, from six
weeks of age we might be alreadydoing things with the litter.
And then from eight weeks of age,we train them into going into
different vehicles, just being ableto board under control and exit under
(15:16):
control, travel safely, stay calm.
But they are essentially emotional beings.
So if they're having a hard time andthey are somewhat misbehaving the
handler is trained as well to respondand to help the animal calm itself down.
But they are emotional beings like us.
So we might be having a tough day.
One day we're not performingour jobs exceptionally.
I guess having that understanding,but knowing that the handler
(15:39):
gets the training as well.
So our clients are trained torespond and support the dog as
much as the dogs are trained torespond and support the clients.
So yeah, there's a lot of.
Exposure and repetitioninvolved in training them.
And then with the clients, wedo extensive training when we're
placing the dog with the client.
But if it's a new team, they mightbe slightly more nervous when they're
encountering these situations.
(16:00):
And then of course they get into thatrelationship, that bond, and they get more
comfortable as they navigate the world.
And we support them with yearly training,yearly check-ins, and ongoing support
for the lifetime they've got the dog.
So I guess understanding that,we're always learning and evolving.
The assistants teams, the teams wecall them, I guess with client and
dog, are evolving and learning anddeveloping their relationship further.
(16:22):
And Nick, you are champingat the bit there..
It's an important point, Marcus, thequestion that you ask around some of the
views, and I think Fran touched on mostof them, but there's a few other common
ones, unfortunately, that drivers maycarry in relation to miss perceptions
around the, and Fran mentioned about thepet, or you mentioned about the pets.
They are not pets.
Let's make that very clear.
There's an important role andfunction that Assistance Animals
(16:43):
play particularly for their handlers.
The fact that the dogs can dirty or soilthe taxi is definitely an incorrect thing.
And the actual fact I would go outto say that an Assistance Animal
would be cleaner than a lot ofother passengers that drives carry.
Let me tell you, they are trained inmeticulous way that particularly on a
Friday, Saturday night, I guarantee you.
You're not gonna get an intoxicatedAssistance Animal making a mess in
your car, let me assure you that.
(17:05):
But a lot of animals you pick up on aSaturday night that don't have four legs.
Hahaha
On a serious note, in relation tobeliefs and religious beliefs, or,
I don't like pets, or it's againstmy belief, or any of those views.
The bit that Fran talked about the doggetting out of control and so forth.
All incorrect.
And Fran, as I understand it, isit a couple of years that, that
(17:26):
a dog goes through training?
It's quite an intense, I'll let Franmaybe talk to that, but to ensure that
they are, that their Assistance Animalsare well behaved and are actually are
cleaner and performing a very vital role.
Accredited assistance dog Schoolsand guide dog Schools will have
very very clear protocols aboutthe welfare, the care of the dog.
The training, like I said, startsfrom eight weeks of age, and
(17:47):
they might be around 18 to 24months old when they get placed.
So there's a lot that goes into that.
At ADA for example, theyare in puppy education.
12 to 13 months, and then they have 21weeks of advanced training and they're
assessed for the different roles.
But we are constantly assessing thedog's behaviour, how they interact, how
they, respond in different environments.
And then, like I said, we doextensive training with our clients
(18:09):
and that dog will go on to work withthe client for all the way up to
when they're like nine years old.
But yeah, they're trained to toileton queue, they're trained to hop on
and hop off vehicles under control.
They are exceptionally welltrained for the work that they do.
So I guess in a way, a driver wouldpossibly identify a dog there's not
genuinely an assistance dog, andunfortunately that does happen out there.
(18:31):
So I guess it's important to say this,like I said, the important identification
points that a registered accreditedassistance dog will have are important and
I guess part of our industry advocacy isto get more regulation and more support.
The genuine clients that are navigatingthe world with the Assistance
Dogs are welcome and treated withrespect and dignity because they're
(18:53):
deserving of being able to live theirlives and do things on their own
and have the animal support them.
Yeah.
And just a quick question, they're notall Assistance Animals are Labradors.
That's right isn't it?
Yeah.
So in our program itself, we'vegot a diverse amount of breeds.
Majority are Labradors or GoldenRetrievers, or the crosses between Marcus.
But we have placed Cavoodle, aGroodle, an Australian Shepherd.
(19:17):
We have a Bernese Mountaindog in our program servicing a
client with PTSD in Victoria.
Isn't that a big dog?
It's a big dog, yeah.
Yeah.
Bernie's his name.
So in America they've used a lot ofBernese Mountain dogs to help clients that
transfer from the wheelchair onto anothersurface, because of course, they're sturdy
enough, they can hold a stand position,they can be used to be transferred to and
(19:38):
from their, the wheelchair to the seat.
Bernie ended up getting to thePost Traumatic Stress Disorder
career because of many things.
A lot of our clients do rely on pointto point transport because they don't
like driving or they're unable to drive.
You might have to accommodate aBernese Mountain dog depending
on the client's needs.
But I guess as a whole, the dog hasbeen trained and will be behaving
(19:59):
according to the accreditation standardsthat we identified as suitable.
And like I said, we dore-accreditation every year as well
as the guide dog schools will do.
So the dog is obviously alwaysworking to the optimal performance.
And if there's things to address, likeI said, dogs are not robots, we might
have to do retraining or support, butorganisations that are working according
to the guidelines we're given, are doingthat constantly to improve the welfare of
(20:23):
the dog and the client at the same time.
Yeah.
Kate, what's your dog, Wiley.
It's Wiley, isn't it?
Yes.
So what's he trained to do when hegets into a point to point vehicle?
He is trained to get me to the door.
Usually it's the frontdoor of the vehicle.
And then, either depending on where thepreference is to sit for me, often it's
(20:45):
to sit in the front of the vehicle andhave the dog then sit in the footwell.
So I'll get in the car first,move the seat back, and then
Wiley will come and curl up at myfeet and just sits very quietly.
Yeah.
Sometimes as the dogs do age thoughmobility of the dog can differ a
bit, so getting into the car can bea little bit different or it might
(21:08):
be easier for the dog to sit in thefront than in the back footwell.
But, generally it's a prettyeasy and smooth transition.
Yeah so the point is that they don'tget in, jump around, make a mess.
They're very specifically trainedto get in, to sit, to be still.
Yes.
Yep.
Stay quietly until the end of the journey.
And then they're trained to get outfirst and then take us on our merry way.
(21:31):
They won't interact with thedriver unless the driver is
obviously doing things to distract.
Then yeah, that's when it canbe a little bit more vocal.
Is there any preferred location orposition that you prefer, or a person
with Assistance Animal prefers to sit in?
In the vehicle?
Front is preferable because there'sjust a bit more space than in the back.
(21:55):
And then you can, if you'recarrying a bag or whatever, then
that can go into the back as well.
But the the front is preferred,but you can certainly move.
You can sit in the back, butthe driver would need to assist
in moving the seat forward,
as it can be the both the base of the seatand the, the back of the seat to be moved
forward to give as much space as possible.
(22:17):
So ultimately, obviously the preferencesits with the passenger and where
they are comfortable and like to sit.
But also if a driver'sever unsure, just ask.
Would that be right?
Just ask the question.
Yep.
Please ask.
Please ask.
Yep.
One issue that you mentioned when we weretalking before was you might be waiting
on the side of the road for a car, andwhen the car comes, because you don't
(22:39):
move towards the car, the driver is notsure that you are the right person, and
they might drive away without realisingthat you are there, because you don't
obviously know that they're there.
How could they help in that situation?
What would a driver be bestto do if that was the case?
It would be wonderful if a drivercould acknowledge that they're there.
So whether it's coming out of the taxiand approaching you and saying, I'm here.
(23:02):
Hello.
Or whether it's winding down thewindow and calling out my name.
That, that's just some of the mostbasic things that can be done,
which just really helps a lot for.
For me to be able to identify that thisis the right vehicle and it's safe for
me to go forward, and that will thenalso prompt the dog to go into gear
and to guide me to the vehicle as well.
(23:26):
Nick, you were gonna say something?
Yeah.
Can I just to help facilitate that betterconnection between the driver and the
passenger and the Assistance Animal.
I think there are two key roles herethat I think if done properly can
actually help deliver better outcomes.
One, from a passenger perspective,obviously ensuring at the time of the
booking that you state that you dohave an Assistance Animal which can be
easily identified from that perspective.
(23:47):
But I also encourage drivers.
Make you check all the details,whether it be on your screen or on your
app, making sure that you understandall the details of the booking,
to then understand and see that thisperson may have an Assistance Animal
or may have an mobility device or someother form of assistance that they need,
which also means that you need to makesure that you understand that you're
(24:07):
prepared to go out and provide a levelof assistance for that passenger.
Little bit of information can go along way in helping that facilitation.
Yeah, that's a very goodpoint actually, Nick.
So Fran, when training, you'reobviously training Assistance Animals.
Do you have to train the peopleto use the Assistance Animals?
Cause I'm thinking of the kind of thingslike Nick says, if I'm ringing up to book
(24:28):
a cab, tell them, I have an AssistanceAnimal, which is fairly obvious.
Yeah.
But do you have a training almostfor the people who have the animals?
Yeah.
So we, we run a 10 days class whenthe clients first get their dog.
And of course we go through anintensive interview process matching
the right dog to the right client.
And then we, when we go to that point.
We do pre-training and then 10 daysof a class where the client's learning
(24:49):
how to use the dog in the differentlife scenarios that they would need to.
So we do encourage them to communicatethat if they're making a booking.
There are also circumstances wherethey might just have to present
themselves in some situationsand ask for help or support.
And I guess this is where they expectthat there's the understanding that
they might need the support as well.
(25:10):
Just on that note too, and I agree withyou, Fran and Nick, but sometimes there
are avenues where you can't actuallynotify when you're making a booking
that you do have an assistant GuideDog or assistant dog, so often with the
automated, the taxis, if your callinga taxi, it's a press one if you wanna
be picked up from this destinationor two if you're ready to go now.
(25:32):
So there's just not that optionto do it unless you go through and
actually speak to a, to an operator.
But I think it is a bitbetter for the shared cars.
Is it's slightly differentfor the rideshare providers,
is that what you're saying?
Yes.
I can confirm, the passengerdoes have the option.
If you don't like using theautomated system, you can go do the
option of talking to an operator.
(25:53):
So please, I want to make sure thatpassengers aren't discouraged from,
if there's a need for additionalinstructions or information to choose
the option to actually talk to anoperator because it's important
that they do have that information.
Just on that point too, Nick,
There has been experiences where youtalk to an operator and you disclose
(26:14):
I've got a guide dog, and they willsay, that's okay, they're allowed.
We don't need to tell the driver.
So there are mixed messages, Ithink there, so and that's fine.
It'd be good for drivers tobe aware that sometimes that
information won't come across.
So there might be a scenario wherethey're picking up a person with an
(26:36):
Assistance Animal and not knowingbeforehand that was gonna be the case.
That's good insight and feedback,Kate, because what we do need to have
is consistency across the industry.
So if there's further training andeducation we need to have with call
centers and service providers, I thinkit's a good call out and something
I think, again, we always look atcontinual improvement in this space
and if that's something that weneed to work on to get right, then
(26:58):
we're committed to make that happen.
So thanks for the feedback.
Agreed.
Good call Nick.
Yeah.
If I may add something as well.
I think a lot of people do recogniseguide dogs as an Assistance Animal
more so than an assistance dog becauseof the misconceptions and the lack of
education sometimes available to peopleabout these other disabilities and
how they impact someone and how theyimpair them and how they really need
(27:20):
the assistance to be able to do things.
We appreciate the opportunityto continue educating everyone.
There's different types of disabilities,there's different types of needs, and
the clients, if they're asking to havethe animal there supporting them, and
they've gone to the extent of gettingan assistance dog, getting trained,
waiting sometimes, in our case, waitingsometimes a little while to get the
(27:41):
animal accredited and trained with them.
Yeah, it goes a long way for themthat they're recognised and they're
accepted and they're included.
Yeah.
And that's one of the important points tomake that Assistance Animals are not just
Guide dogs and they're not just Labradors.
They can be any number.
Different breeds.
Yeah.
Different breeds.
Yeah.
That's right.
Just in closing, Nick, do you haveanything, last thing you want to say?
Any particular points that, yeah.
(28:02):
Relevant?
Thanks, Marcus.
It's been a great conversation.
Just a couple of key pointsI'd like to finish up on.
One is right on the outset.
Fran noted the benefits and wonderfulbenefits that Assistance Animals
provide for the handlers and thepassengers, which is great, but
that's all pointless and meaningless
if they can't use and access thetransport modes to get them to
(28:25):
enjoy that better quality of life.
So the role, that point to pointservices, including taxis, play in
helping facilitate that connection betweenthe passenger and enjoying that better
quality of life is absolutely vital.
So the big message up to drivers,particularly when you do sign up to
drive in the point to point industry,you do sign up to drive a taxi.
There's a commitment that you'remaking to follow the rules, the
(28:46):
laws, and the regulations thatcome with providing that service.
Now we know driving point to pointservice, in this case a taxi, has
many rewards and benefits in doing so.
And fulfilling your obligations,particularly around ensuring that
you love every fare, and that's thepoint, particularly with a person
with a disability, particularly witha person who relies on an Assistance
(29:08):
Animal to get around, it is animportant role that you need to play.
And if you are not prepared to fulfillthat obligation, I'll ask you to think
twice about joining this industry becausethere are laws and there are regulations.
And this is one of the consequenceswe probably haven't discussed
around refusing a fare for aperson with an Assistance Animal.
We're talking about fines of up to $1,100for a driver who may refuse service.
(29:30):
We've heard about the knock oneffects that it has on the passenger,
but there's also other consequencesaround potentially being dismissed
from being able to provide furtherservices or dismissed from the industry.
So there are serious consequencesfor those that do choose
to not do the right thing.
On a positive note, we do provide awonderful service for people with a
disability, and we are proud of that,and it is a very rewarding industry.
(29:53):
And I encourage drivers to, come in, dothe right thing, but most importantly,
help those passengers with a disabilitymake a difference to their life and help
them fulfill that role of getting outand enjoying that good quality of life.
Thanks for that Nick.
And that is a point that I did skip over.
Yeah, there's that statement about thelegislation that point to point drivers
are not allowed to refuse to carry apassenger who has an Assistance Animal.
(30:15):
Yeah.
It's under the Point toPoint Transport Regulation.
Yeah.
But it also sits under theDisability Discrimination Act.
So there are a number of laws thereto protect the passengers and we
need to make sure we are aware ofthose and we fulfill our obligations.
Absolutely.
Good.
Thanks Nick.
Any final closing comments?
Fran?
We just appreciate the opportunityof educating the society further and
it's any chance we've got to speak,and we are very passionate about the
(30:38):
human animal bonds, how our dogs aretransforming the lives of so many clients.
We just wanted to say thanks for includingus in this conversation and yeah,
Thanks.
It's been good to have you and Kate.
Yes, I agree.
Thank you so much for this discussion.
It's been absolutely wonderful andI mirror Nick in what he's saying.
(30:59):
The role that drivers havein the lives of people with a
disability is just so important.
I personally wouldn't have been ableto work or train or do the things that
I need to do in order to get throughmy day to day activities without the
support of these wonderful drivers.
So please don't underestimate thevalue that what you offer us has
(31:23):
on our lives and our community.
So it's the most efficient and safestway for us to travel, and we truly do
thank you for considering our needs andfor looking to grow as well as a driver.
Thank you again, Kate, Fran,and Nick for being here today to
talk about this important topic.
And I hope the session has beeninformative for our listeners.
(31:47):
If you want more information, we'vedeveloped a toolkit and a series of
shareable videos on Assistance Animals,which are available on our website.
A video version of this podcast andtranscript is also available, so
visit us at pointtopoint.nsw.gov.au.
If you've found this information useful,please feel free to share this recording.
(32:12):
My name's Marcus Binet, andthis podcast is brought to you
by the Point to Point TransportCommissioner, thanks for joining us.
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