December 7, 2022 • 19 mins
In this podcast, we speak about community transport and how a community transport provider can become authorised.
Guest speakers Ben Jackson from Active Care Network (and Chair of the Community Transport Organisation Board), Nicole O’Neil (Director Outer Metro and Community Transport/ ROM Transport for NSW) and David Tooze (Director Operations at Point to Point Transport Commission), provide valuable insights on this topic.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
(00:09):
Welcome to Get to the Point, apodcast series by the
NSW Point to Point Transport Commissioner.
The Commissioner is theindependent regulator for point
to point transport in NSW,
which includes taxi, hire vehicles andrideshare, as well as some community
transport and tourist operations.
(00:30):
In this series, you'll hearfrom industry representatives
and from subject matter experts
as we explore topics relevant to pointto point to transport, and work together
to ensure a safer point to point industry.
Hi, I'm your host, Marcus Binet.
Today we are speaking about communitytransport, the role that point to
(00:53):
point transport plays, and we willanswer some frequently asked questions.
We'll also be talking through examplesto help paint a clearer picture of
when community transport may fit underPoint to Point Transport law in NSW,
and how community Transport is animportant participant in the industry.
(01:14):
Today I'm joined by Ben Jacksonfrom Active Care Network.
He's also a member of theCommunity Transport Organisation.
Thank you for having me.
That's good to have you here.
Nicole O'Neil, Director of Outer Metro andCommunity Transport at Transport for NSW.
Thanks, Nicole.
And David Tooze from the Pointto Point Transport Commission.
(01:36):
Thank you.
It's good to have you.
So we'll start with you Nicole.
Can you tell us what does a typicalcommunity transport provider look like?
Okay.
I think the thing that's important isthat I would say that there isn't actually
one typical community transport provider.
What's interesting in the communitytransport space is that Transport provides
funds to general community groups orcouncils who work on the services that
(02:02):
are needed for their specific areas.
So each community transportgroup, basically is responding to
the needs of those communities.
And so there are some things thatare common to groups, but they're
not necessarily all the same.
But if I break it down, in general,community transport groups provide
services and they can either beusing anything from cars, vans, buses
(02:26):
and vehicles that have mobilityaccess for people who have mobility
issues and wheelchair needs.
So a broad range of groups actuallyprovide community transport.
And so when you say a community,that could be like a community of
people with specific needs, butit could also be a regional area.
Is that right?
Indeed.
So often community transport groupswill provide services to regions.
(02:47):
They are on a needs basis and theneeds are based on eligibility.
So there are some broad groups that fallinto the areas for community transport,
predominantly frail aged, people withdisabilities form a target group.
Community transport, also services,transport-disadvantaged groups.
(03:07):
And from time-to-time thereis some medical services that
they can provide as well.
Okay, so which is the passenger transport?
Patient transport, sorry.
Yeah.
Is that right?
Not necessarily patient transport,but they can provide some medical
assisted transport, but not normallyfor ongoing treatment such as dialysis.
(03:28):
But they do assist basically inkeeping people in their homes.
There is a funding streamthat is available to community
transport organisations throughthe state health department.
Which allows us to transportmedically-disadvantaged
people in our community.
So if you do have an ongoing conditionlike dialysis, if you have a shorter term
(03:51):
chronic illness like cancer, or treatmentfor cancer, then there is some health
funding available to do that for us.
But for the most part, communitytransport organisations deal with
vulnerable parts of our community,whether it be aged or through disability.
What I'm thinking is, peopledon't necessarily need to be
transport-disadvantaged physically, itcan be because of where they live, can't
(04:14):
it?
Indeed.
So community transport responds to itsareas and while the funding is the same
for all projects and they come from thesame funding stream, which is transport
for NSW in general, administers fundingon behalf of the Commonwealth, and that is
for the Commonwealth Home Support Program.
The Commonwealth Home Support Programprovides about 90 per cent of community
(04:38):
transport services, and that's thetarget group of frail age people with
disabilities in attempting to keep peoplein their homes for longer periods of time.
Now while that the needs of transportwill change regionally, depending on the
services that are required compared to,say, a city compared to more rural and
remote areas, the funding is the same.
(05:00):
In Blacktown, which is one ofthe local government areas that
Active Care Network services,
there's a suburb called Wilmot, andpublic transport doesn't operate in
Wilmot very early in the morning orvery late at night (for safety reasons),
but that provides a level of disadvantageto those people who might need to get
to different places, (including thetrain station) at certain times of day,
(05:21):
so community transport steps into thatrole to be able to provide access to
transport for transport-disadvantaged.
It looks a bit different in the countrybecause that's often about geography.
More so about social issuesthat are going on at the time.
Yeah.
And you may need to be required to travelfurther distances because some of those
(05:42):
services mightn't be in your local town.
They might actually be in yourneighboring regional town that you
need to access the services required.
Yeah.
So what do you think then Nicole, thatis one of the greatest misunderstanding
around community transport?
Is there one?
I think one of the greatestmisunderstandings around community
transport is that they provide servicesfor all members of the community.
(06:06):
Where, in fact, in general, communitytransport is eligibility-based.
Some projects do offer servicesoutside of the eligibility.
But in general, as from Transportfor NSW, the relationship that we
have with Community Transport is inrelation to eligibility-based services,
primarily the Commonwealth Home SupportProgram where clients apply for the
(06:31):
program through the aged care system.
Okay.
From a service provider perspective.
Yeah.
That was gonna be my next question haha..
Yeah, what do you think about that Ben?
It often comes down to thedifferentiation between a taxi and
a community transport provider.
So a community transport provider
(because of the way the fundingworks) wants to work with scale.
So we wanna get as many peopleon the bus as possible to take
(06:53):
them to where they need to go.
Yeah.
Whereas a taxi is avery individual service.
So sometimes, initially when peoplestart with community transport,
they go, oh, hang on a second.
Why am I sharing a vehicle?
But in reality, the whole purpose ofcommunity transport is to be able to
provide a group service or a communityservice rather than an individual service.
(07:16):
Because then that comes underthe Point to Point Transport law.
So where does that fit in with that David?
So there's a lot of communitytransport providers that are
currently registered with the Pointto Point Transport Commission.
They're authorised under Point toPoint Transport law, and they're
providing services outside thecontract with Transport for NSW.
Now, if those services are invehicles of 12 seats or less
(07:37):
(including the driver), they mayvery well be point to point services.
They would look to be authorisedunder Point to Point Transport law
and provide additional services,
which some would consider more closelyto a taxi service or a hire vehicle
service, than a community transportservice because they're picking up and
dropping off, as directed by the customerat times, convenient to the customer.
(07:59):
Yeah, which is thatindividual kind of thing.
Correct.
It's, it's I want to go from A to B.
Whereas what you were saying before,Ben, is it might be a whole group
of people who are going, which ismore like a community transport.
It can be a group but it can alsobe, we have to drive past Betty's
place and Bob's Place and Elsie'splace, to make sure that everyone gets
to Westmead Hospital, for example.
Yeah.
(08:20):
So it enables some level of scaleto be able to provide a cheaper
service or subsidised service.
And it may not be uncommon for acommunity transport passenger to also
be in the vehicle at the same timeas a passenger service, which is a
point to point transport service.
So there could be two types of passengerswithin the vehicle at the same time.
Yeah, do you see that a lot Ben sometimes?
(08:40):
As a provider, yeah.
You do.
And it depends on how you structure, asNicole was saying, community transport
providers are really horses for courses.
A lot of them will do pointto point type transport.
Others choose not to becauseof their business model.
But as a rule, if you do multiple typesof transport, then you try and put as
many as you can on the same vehicle,because there's a scale savings in that.
(09:04):
And that's what we try and do as anot-for-profit is try and make it cheap.
Yeah, so there's no compromise, fromcoming back to what you're saying, David,
I'm driving a van, there's no compromisein me having someone I'm providing a
community transport with my vehicle, butalso a point to point at the same time.
Correct.
It's just better utilisationof the resource in this
particular case, the vehicle.
Yeah.
Yeah.
and I know that's something you'requite passionate about, isn't it, Ben?
(09:28):
Efficiencies.
Yes.
Yeah, and sorry, cause Iwanna come back to that.
So does that cause any sort ofconflict from your perspective Nicole?
Not from my perspective in Transportbecause the projects that I am in
contract with have an agreementwith Transport for NSW and those
contracts actually exempt them fromthe requirements of Point to Point.
(09:51):
It becomes more interesting when transportgroups are transporting people who are
under agreement with Transport for NSW.
So they are your CommonwealthHome Support program customers.
They are exempt from therequirements of Point to Point.
However, if there are other passengersin the vehicle at the same time, they
may attract interest of Point to Point.
(10:13):
There are also some communitytransport groups who also operate
services outside those that they'recontracted with Transport, and they
would be services that Point toPoint would also be interested in.
Yeah.
Cause to be a community transportprovider, it has to be part of a
contract with Transport for NSW.
That's correct, isn't it?
Yes.
And that has to do withthe funding arrangement.
(10:33):
As I said earlier Transportadministers funds on behalf of the
Commonwealth, and it is throughthat process that we have a funding
arrangement with community transport.
You've touched on something there,which I know causes some confusion,
around the passenger service levy.
And so when does the passengerservice levy apply David?
So the passenger service levyapplies for every booking that
you take for a passenger servicein the hire vehicle space.
(10:56):
What the law classes, communitytransport vehicles as are 'hire
vehicles' when they're doingpoint to point transport work.
So any booking for a passenger servicein a hire vehicle where that booking is
actually completed, will be an additionaldollar for the Passenger Service Levy.
Yes.
And so when we were talkingbefore about having some community
transport people and some point topoint passengers in the vehicle.
(11:19):
However many point to pointpassengers, they're the ones who...
That's exactly right.
Yeah.
However many bookings you have forpoint to point passengers, that's
where you'll attract the dollar levy.
Bearing in mind that this is in vehiclesfor 12 seats or less, and if we're
talking of 13 seats or more, they may alsofall under bus operator accreditation,
which is dealt with through Transport.
(11:41):
So what sort of vehicles then,do most of these people have?
These community transport providers?
Is it mainly just thinking whatDavid's saying, is that mainly 12
or more, are they mainly mini buses?
What are they?
Yeah
I'm gonna go back to Nicole's initialstatement and that is, it really is
a horses for courses kind of deal.
So, if you are a rural setting and you'retaking very small numbers of people in
a vehicle, then typically it's cars.
(12:04):
The Active Care Network doesthe Blacktown, Penrith and Blue
Mountains local government areas.
And so the Blue Mountains looks quitedifferent to Penrith and Blacktown.
And we have about an even split of cars,vans, which can seat, depending on whether
they've got disability access or not.
Can seat up to 12 or canseat as few as eight.
(12:27):
And then we've got themedium size buses after that.
They can seat 19 to 24 kind of people.
Okay, so it's all sizes then?
Yes.
And as a community transport organisation,you need all of the different sizes,
because what you want to be able to do, isgenerate a social setting for transport.
(12:48):
So, often when Betty and Elsie get on thebus, wherever they're going, it matters
just as much as who they're going with.
So we want to be able to create a settingthat enables them to be able to do that.
Okay.
How well do community transportproviders understand all of this
stuff that we are just talking about?
Quite well, hahaha
(13:09):
I'd like to think that most ofthem understand it quite well.
I think the thing that's interestingis though that time from time, the
people who are involved in communitytransport may change, and there's
always an opportunity for a refresh.
Yeah.
Cause I'm just thinking about all ofwhat we were just talking about and
whether someone might be just a communitytransport provider and they think all they
can do is community transport, which isobviously not what we're talking about.
(13:32):
So what's your experience been of that?
Do you find people try todo both, Ben or do they...
Community transport organisations,and Nicole, I'm gonna keep coming
back to Nicole and keep sayingthat, for community transport
organisation, it's quite differentfrom organisation to organisation.
For our organisation because we have someurban transport and we have some regional
(13:55):
transport, we're required to provide both.
And so we need to beaccredited to do both.
But there are examples forexample, Live Better across
the other side of the mountain.
They've taken on a point to pointaccreditation because they want a
government contract doing transportoutside of community transport.
They want to run morepublic transport services.
There's the NDIS work thatyou need to be accredited for.
(14:19):
Part of the confusion that sits withincommunity transport is around the
difference between a CHSP client,
which is a Commonwealth HomeSupport Program client and
an age care package client.
So they're both part of the age caresystem, requesting an individual service
that they attract the point to point levy.
Whereas because Transport for NSW fundsus to deliver CHSP, we become exempt.
(14:45):
So there are lots of things that acommunity transport organisation needs
to look at and make decisions on.
Up until recently, the aged care packagescenario provides an opportunity for,
certainly the more urban communitytransports, to provide lots of those
services and create an income streamfrom that, but also have to obviously
follow the regulation that's required.
(15:05):
Yeah.
So if someone wants to getauthorised, what's involved David?
Oh, look it's a reasonably simple process.
Authorisation is really justthe authority to do an activity.
So if you're planning on doing anactivity in point to point space as
in providing services, you need to beauthorised before you start that activity.
And it's a simple process of applyingonline, providing documentation
(15:28):
such as, your 100 points of IDand a National Police Check.
Because there are disqualifyingoffenses for service providers.
And we will check to ensure that there'snobody with disqualifying offences.
And then it's simply, lodgeapplication online, and it's
generally processed within a few days.
So it's not an onerous thing.
No.
The one thing to remember though,is that you really need to have your
framework set up before applying.
(15:50):
You want to make sure that you've got yourSafety Management Systems in place and
you understand what the services are thatyou're wanting to provide and then look
towards finalising your authorisation.
Because once you're authorised,you can start trading as a point
to point service anytime you're on.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And if anyone wants any informationthey can go to, of course,
the point to point website.
(16:11):
They most certainly can.
Don't ask me the phone number...
So the bonus that community transportproviders have with the point to point
system is that it actually providessome background structure to be able
to implement safety for drivers.
So if a driver, their licence, forexample, they're losing points or
they're not driving safely, then thatcomes up in the background framework.
(16:34):
So the point to point system,even if you're not actually
paying the levy or whatever,
it still provides a systemwhere you can maintain a safety
level amongst your drivers.
Yeah.
And that would be the kind of thingwhen you're saying you already
need a predetermined framework,that's the kind of thing...
Yeah, exactly.
And there's a lot of material on ourwebsite in relation to helping understand
(16:54):
what that framework actually is.
Okay.
And so if you had one takeawaythat you wanted people to learn,
Nicole, what would that be?
I think if in doubt, contact thePoint to Point Commission and they
will be able to assist you becauseit does get a little bit complex.
I think it is a little bit complexbetween the different schemes and the
(17:15):
different services that can be provided.
So if in doubt, ask.
Yes.
Cause it is quite involvedwith what we're talking about.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Ben, what would your takeaway be?
From a governance perspective in acommunity transport organisation,
it's about understanding what kindof service you want to deliver.
And what fits your business model.
If you have a look at the pointto point opportunities that are
(17:37):
available to your organisation,then you do a business case on it.
You understand that itworks, get involved in it.
There are some community organisationsthat are gonna be too small.
Or too specialised to wantto be able to do that.
So as an organisation, take it backto a governance level, understand
what the risks and what theopportunities are, and then proceed.
(17:57):
Yeah.
And it comes back to yourpoint at the beginning, Nicole,
it's horses for courses.
Some people will be happy todo just community transport.
Some will wanna do thepoint to point stuff.
There's a, yeah.
And David, what would your,
Oh, look, I think the outtake reallyis that Point to Point transport law
is flexible enough to allow you toinnovate and provide different types
of services, so it's worth consideringwhat services you might want to provide.
(18:21):
Yeah.
Thank you again, Ben, Nicole, andDavid for joining us and sharing
your thoughts and knowledge.
I hope the session has beeninformative for our listeners.
Education resources and a copyof the transcript from today's
podcast are available on ourwebsite, pointtopoint.nsw.gov.au.
(18:43):
A video of this podcast is alsoavailable on our website and can
be shared as an educational tool.
For more information, we have a communitytransport fact sheet on the Point to
Point Transport Commissioner website.
And if you have found this informationuseful, please share the recording.
Thanks for joining us.
(00:09):
Welcome to Get to the Point, apodcast series by the
NSW Point to Point Transport Commissioner.
The Commissioner is theindependent regulator for point
to point transport in NSW,
which includes taxi, hire vehicles andrideshare, as well as some community
transport and tourist operations.
(00:30):
In this series, you'll hearfrom industry representatives
and from subject matter experts
as we explore topics relevant to pointto point to transport, and work together
to ensure a safer point to point industry.
Hi, I'm your host, Marcus Binet.
Today we are speaking about communitytransport, the role that point to
(00:53):
point transport plays, and we willanswer some frequently asked questions.
We'll also be talking through examplesto help paint a clearer picture of
when community transport may fit underPoint to Point Transport law in NSW,
and how community Transport is animportant participant in the industry.
(01:14):
Today I'm joined by Ben Jacksonfrom Active Care Network.
He's also a member of theCommunity Transport Organisation.
Thank you for having me.
That's good to have you here.
Nicole O'Neil, Director of Outer Metro andCommunity Transport at Transport for NSW.
Thanks, Nicole.
And David Tooze from the Pointto Point Transport Commission.
(01:36):
Thank you.
It's good to have you.
So we'll start with you Nicole.
Can you tell us what does a typicalcommunity transport provider look like?
Okay.
I think the thing that's important isthat I would say that there isn't actually
one typical community transport provider.
What's interesting in the communitytransport space is that Transport provides
funds to general community groups orcouncils who work on the services that
(02:02):
are needed for their specific areas.
So each community transportgroup, basically is responding to
the needs of those communities.
And so there are some things thatare common to groups, but they're
not necessarily all the same.
But if I break it down, in general,community transport groups provide
services and they can either beusing anything from cars, vans, buses
(02:26):
and vehicles that have mobilityaccess for people who have mobility
issues and wheelchair needs.
So a broad range of groups actuallyprovide community transport.
And so when you say a community,that could be like a community of
people with specific needs, butit could also be a regional area.
Is that right?
Indeed.
So often community transport groupswill provide services to regions.
(02:47):
They are on a needs basis and theneeds are based on eligibility.
So there are some broad groups that fallinto the areas for community transport,
predominantly frail aged, people withdisabilities form a target group.
Community transport, also services,transport-disadvantaged groups.
(03:07):
And from time-to-time thereis some medical services that
they can provide as well.
Okay, so which is the passenger transport?
Patient transport, sorry.
Yeah.
Is that right?
Not necessarily patient transport,but they can provide some medical
assisted transport, but not normallyfor ongoing treatment such as dialysis.
(03:28):
But they do assist basically inkeeping people in their homes.
There is a funding streamthat is available to community
transport organisations throughthe state health department.
Which allows us to transportmedically-disadvantaged
people in our community.
So if you do have an ongoing conditionlike dialysis, if you have a shorter term
(03:51):
chronic illness like cancer, or treatmentfor cancer, then there is some health
funding available to do that for us.
But for the most part, communitytransport organisations deal with
vulnerable parts of our community,whether it be aged or through disability.
What I'm thinking is, peopledon't necessarily need to be
transport-disadvantaged physically, itcan be because of where they live, can't
(04:14):
it?
Indeed.
So community transport responds to itsareas and while the funding is the same
for all projects and they come from thesame funding stream, which is transport
for NSW in general, administers fundingon behalf of the Commonwealth, and that is
for the Commonwealth Home Support Program.
The Commonwealth Home Support Programprovides about 90 per cent of community
(04:38):
transport services, and that's thetarget group of frail age people with
disabilities in attempting to keep peoplein their homes for longer periods of time.
Now while that the needs of transportwill change regionally, depending on the
services that are required compared to,say, a city compared to more rural and
remote areas, the funding is the same.
(05:00):
In Blacktown, which is one ofthe local government areas that
Active Care Network services,
there's a suburb called Wilmot, andpublic transport doesn't operate in
Wilmot very early in the morning orvery late at night (for safety reasons),
but that provides a level of disadvantageto those people who might need to get
to different places, (including thetrain station) at certain times of day,
(05:21):
so community transport steps into thatrole to be able to provide access to
transport for transport-disadvantaged.
It looks a bit different in the countrybecause that's often about geography.
More so about social issuesthat are going on at the time.
Yeah.
And you may need to be required to travelfurther distances because some of those
(05:42):
services mightn't be in your local town.
They might actually be in yourneighboring regional town that you
need to access the services required.
Yeah.
So what do you think then Nicole, thatis one of the greatest misunderstanding
around community transport?
Is there one?
I think one of the greatestmisunderstandings around community
transport is that they provide servicesfor all members of the community.
(06:06):
Where, in fact, in general, communitytransport is eligibility-based.
Some projects do offer servicesoutside of the eligibility.
But in general, as from Transportfor NSW, the relationship that we
have with Community Transport is inrelation to eligibility-based services,
primarily the Commonwealth Home SupportProgram where clients apply for the
(06:31):
program through the aged care system.
Okay.
From a service provider perspective.
Yeah.
That was gonna be my next question haha..
Yeah, what do you think about that Ben?
It often comes down to thedifferentiation between a taxi and
a community transport provider.
So a community transport provider
(because of the way the fundingworks) wants to work with scale.
So we wanna get as many peopleon the bus as possible to take
(06:53):
them to where they need to go.
Yeah.
Whereas a taxi is avery individual service.
So sometimes, initially when peoplestart with community transport,
they go, oh, hang on a second.
Why am I sharing a vehicle?
But in reality, the whole purpose ofcommunity transport is to be able to
provide a group service or a communityservice rather than an individual service.
(07:16):
Because then that comes underthe Point to Point Transport law.
So where does that fit in with that David?
So there's a lot of communitytransport providers that are
currently registered with the Pointto Point Transport Commission.
They're authorised under Point toPoint Transport law, and they're
providing services outside thecontract with Transport for NSW.
Now, if those services are invehicles of 12 seats or less
(07:37):
(including the driver), they mayvery well be point to point services.
They would look to be authorisedunder Point to Point Transport law
and provide additional services,
which some would consider more closelyto a taxi service or a hire vehicle
service, than a community transportservice because they're picking up and
dropping off, as directed by the customerat times, convenient to the customer.
(07:59):
Yeah, which is thatindividual kind of thing.
Correct.
It's, it's I want to go from A to B.
Whereas what you were saying before,Ben, is it might be a whole group
of people who are going, which ismore like a community transport.
It can be a group but it can alsobe, we have to drive past Betty's
place and Bob's Place and Elsie'splace, to make sure that everyone gets
to Westmead Hospital, for example.
Yeah.
(08:20):
So it enables some level of scaleto be able to provide a cheaper
service or subsidised service.
And it may not be uncommon for acommunity transport passenger to also
be in the vehicle at the same timeas a passenger service, which is a
point to point transport service.
So there could be two types of passengerswithin the vehicle at the same time.
Yeah, do you see that a lot Ben sometimes?
(08:40):
As a provider, yeah.
You do.
And it depends on how you structure, asNicole was saying, community transport
providers are really horses for courses.
A lot of them will do pointto point type transport.
Others choose not to becauseof their business model.
But as a rule, if you do multiple typesof transport, then you try and put as
many as you can on the same vehicle,because there's a scale savings in that.
(09:04):
And that's what we try and do as anot-for-profit is try and make it cheap.
Yeah, so there's no compromise, fromcoming back to what you're saying, David,
I'm driving a van, there's no compromisein me having someone I'm providing a
community transport with my vehicle, butalso a point to point at the same time.
Correct.
It's just better utilisationof the resource in this
particular case, the vehicle.
Yeah.
Yeah.
and I know that's something you'requite passionate about, isn't it, Ben?
(09:28):
Efficiencies.
Yes.
Yeah, and sorry, cause Iwanna come back to that.
So does that cause any sort ofconflict from your perspective Nicole?
Not from my perspective in Transportbecause the projects that I am in
contract with have an agreementwith Transport for NSW and those
contracts actually exempt them fromthe requirements of Point to Point.
(09:51):
It becomes more interesting when transportgroups are transporting people who are
under agreement with Transport for NSW.
So they are your CommonwealthHome Support program customers.
They are exempt from therequirements of Point to Point.
However, if there are other passengersin the vehicle at the same time, they
may attract interest of Point to Point.
(10:13):
There are also some communitytransport groups who also operate
services outside those that they'recontracted with Transport, and they
would be services that Point toPoint would also be interested in.
Yeah.
Cause to be a community transportprovider, it has to be part of a
contract with Transport for NSW.
That's correct, isn't it?
Yes.
And that has to do withthe funding arrangement.
(10:33):
As I said earlier Transportadministers funds on behalf of the
Commonwealth, and it is throughthat process that we have a funding
arrangement with community transport.
You've touched on something there,which I know causes some confusion,
around the passenger service levy.
And so when does the passengerservice levy apply David?
So the passenger service levyapplies for every booking that
you take for a passenger servicein the hire vehicle space.
(10:56):
What the law classes, communitytransport vehicles as are 'hire
vehicles' when they're doingpoint to point transport work.
So any booking for a passenger servicein a hire vehicle where that booking is
actually completed, will be an additionaldollar for the Passenger Service Levy.
Yes.
And so when we were talkingbefore about having some community
transport people and some point topoint passengers in the vehicle.
(11:19):
However many point to pointpassengers, they're the ones who...
That's exactly right.
Yeah.
However many bookings you have forpoint to point passengers, that's
where you'll attract the dollar levy.
Bearing in mind that this is in vehiclesfor 12 seats or less, and if we're
talking of 13 seats or more, they may alsofall under bus operator accreditation,
which is dealt with through Transport.
(11:41):
So what sort of vehicles then,do most of these people have?
These community transport providers?
Is it mainly just thinking whatDavid's saying, is that mainly 12
or more, are they mainly mini buses?
What are they?
Yeah
I'm gonna go back to Nicole's initialstatement and that is, it really is
a horses for courses kind of deal.
So, if you are a rural setting and you'retaking very small numbers of people in
a vehicle, then typically it's cars.
(12:04):
The Active Care Network doesthe Blacktown, Penrith and Blue
Mountains local government areas.
And so the Blue Mountains looks quitedifferent to Penrith and Blacktown.
And we have about an even split of cars,vans, which can seat, depending on whether
they've got disability access or not.
Can seat up to 12 or canseat as few as eight.
(12:27):
And then we've got themedium size buses after that.
They can seat 19 to 24 kind of people.
Okay, so it's all sizes then?
Yes.
And as a community transport organisation,you need all of the different sizes,
because what you want to be able to do, isgenerate a social setting for transport.
(12:48):
So, often when Betty and Elsie get on thebus, wherever they're going, it matters
just as much as who they're going with.
So we want to be able to create a settingthat enables them to be able to do that.
Okay.
How well do community transportproviders understand all of this
stuff that we are just talking about?
Quite well, hahaha
(13:09):
I'd like to think that most ofthem understand it quite well.
I think the thing that's interestingis though that time from time, the
people who are involved in communitytransport may change, and there's
always an opportunity for a refresh.
Yeah.
Cause I'm just thinking about all ofwhat we were just talking about and
whether someone might be just a communitytransport provider and they think all they
can do is community transport, which isobviously not what we're talking about.
(13:32):
So what's your experience been of that?
Do you find people try todo both, Ben or do they...
Community transport organisations,and Nicole, I'm gonna keep coming
back to Nicole and keep sayingthat, for community transport
organisation, it's quite differentfrom organisation to organisation.
For our organisation because we have someurban transport and we have some regional
(13:55):
transport, we're required to provide both.
And so we need to beaccredited to do both.
But there are examples forexample, Live Better across
the other side of the mountain.
They've taken on a point to pointaccreditation because they want a
government contract doing transportoutside of community transport.
They want to run morepublic transport services.
There's the NDIS work thatyou need to be accredited for.
(14:19):
Part of the confusion that sits withincommunity transport is around the
difference between a CHSP client,
which is a Commonwealth HomeSupport Program client and
an age care package client.
So they're both part of the age caresystem, requesting an individual service
that they attract the point to point levy.
Whereas because Transport for NSW fundsus to deliver CHSP, we become exempt.
(14:45):
So there are lots of things that acommunity transport organisation needs
to look at and make decisions on.
Up until recently, the aged care packagescenario provides an opportunity for,
certainly the more urban communitytransports, to provide lots of those
services and create an income streamfrom that, but also have to obviously
follow the regulation that's required.
(15:05):
Yeah.
So if someone wants to getauthorised, what's involved David?
Oh, look it's a reasonably simple process.
Authorisation is really justthe authority to do an activity.
So if you're planning on doing anactivity in point to point space as
in providing services, you need to beauthorised before you start that activity.
And it's a simple process of applyingonline, providing documentation
(15:28):
such as, your 100 points of IDand a National Police Check.
Because there are disqualifyingoffenses for service providers.
And we will check to ensure that there'snobody with disqualifying offences.
And then it's simply, lodgeapplication online, and it's
generally processed within a few days.
So it's not an onerous thing.
No.
The one thing to remember though,is that you really need to have your
framework set up before applying.
(15:50):
You want to make sure that you've got yourSafety Management Systems in place and
you understand what the services are thatyou're wanting to provide and then look
towards finalising your authorisation.
Because once you're authorised,you can start trading as a point
to point service anytime you're on.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And if anyone wants any informationthey can go to, of course,
the point to point website.
(16:11):
They most certainly can.
Don't ask me the phone number...
So the bonus that community transportproviders have with the point to point
system is that it actually providessome background structure to be able
to implement safety for drivers.
So if a driver, their licence, forexample, they're losing points or
they're not driving safely, then thatcomes up in the background framework.
(16:34):
So the point to point system,even if you're not actually
paying the levy or whatever,
it still provides a systemwhere you can maintain a safety
level amongst your drivers.
Yeah.
And that would be the kind of thingwhen you're saying you already
need a predetermined framework,that's the kind of thing...
Yeah, exactly.
And there's a lot of material on ourwebsite in relation to helping understand
(16:54):
what that framework actually is.
Okay.
And so if you had one takeawaythat you wanted people to learn,
Nicole, what would that be?
I think if in doubt, contact thePoint to Point Commission and they
will be able to assist you becauseit does get a little bit complex.
I think it is a little bit complexbetween the different schemes and the
(17:15):
different services that can be provided.
So if in doubt, ask.
Yes.
Cause it is quite involvedwith what we're talking about.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Ben, what would your takeaway be?
From a governance perspective in acommunity transport organisation,
it's about understanding what kindof service you want to deliver.
And what fits your business model.
If you have a look at the pointto point opportunities that are
(17:37):
available to your organisation,then you do a business case on it.
You understand that itworks, get involved in it.
There are some community organisationsthat are gonna be too small.
Or too specialised to wantto be able to do that.
So as an organisation, take it backto a governance level, understand
what the risks and what theopportunities are, and then proceed.
(17:57):
Yeah.
And it comes back to yourpoint at the beginning, Nicole,
it's horses for courses.
Some people will be happy todo just community transport.
Some will wanna do thepoint to point stuff.
There's a, yeah.
And David, what would your,
Oh, look, I think the outtake reallyis that Point to Point transport law
is flexible enough to allow you toinnovate and provide different types
of services, so it's worth consideringwhat services you might want to provide.
(18:21):
Yeah.
Thank you again, Ben, Nicole, andDavid for joining us and sharing
your thoughts and knowledge.
I hope the session has beeninformative for our listeners.
Education resources and a copyof the transcript from today's
podcast are available on ourwebsite, pointtopoint.nsw.gov.au.
(18:43):
A video of this podcast is alsoavailable on our website and can
be shared as an educational tool.
For more information, we have a communitytransport fact sheet on the Point to
Point Transport Commissioner website.
And if you have found this informationuseful, please share the recording.
Thanks for joining us.
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