April 30, 2025 • 36 mins
Carbon pricing: confusing acronym soup or powerful conservative climate tool? In this episode, Katie and Zach cut through the noise and serve up the American carbon fee and dividend policy—hot, fresh, and freedom-flavored. You’ll get the lowdown on how a carbon price works, why it's better than Canada's (because of course it is), and how it just might be the key to bipartisan climate action.
But before all that? Katie reacts in real time to the news that Pope Francis has died. We’re talking Catholic media spirals, Vatican conspiracies, and jubilee-year chaos. And yes, J.D. Vance might be involved. Strap in.
💥 Topics Covered:
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What the American carbon price actually is (and why it works)
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Why the “carbon fee and dividend” beats cap-and-trade
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How a CBAM (Carbon Border Adjustment Mechanism) protects U.S. businesses
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Why conservatives like Graham and Cassidy are finally getting on board
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Trade, tariffs, and defending our markets from polluters like China
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Katie’s meltdown over Pope Francis and what it means for Catholic climate advocacy
✅ Action Steps:
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🎯 Call your member of Congress and tell them: “As a young conservative environmentalist, I support a carbon price and a carbon border adjustment mechanism.”
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🧠 Learn more about CCL's carbon fee and dividend model
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📱 Share this episode and tell your friends: Carbon pricing isn't just for liberals
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Carbon Pricing 101 (look it up, do the homework—freedom isn't free)
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Katie’s previous deep dive on the Canadian carbon price (aka maple-scented chaos)
📧 Email your thoughts to: greenteapartyradio.com
Thank you for being part of our fellowship—let’s journey forward, for Middle-earth (and our earth) needs us now more than ever!
Disclaimer: Green Tea Party Radio is an independent project and doesn’t represent the views of the Diocese of Little Rock, Catholic Climate Covenant, NASA, or any of our employers.
Key Words: Carbon Pricing, American Carbon Price, Carbon Fee And Dividend, Citizens Climate Lobby, Environmental Policy, Conservative Solutions, Climate Change, Carbon Emissions, Carbon Border Adjustment Mechanism, Cbam, Sustainable Practices, Renewable Energy, Economic Impact, Bipartisan Support, Pope Francis, Environmental Stewardship, National Security, Energy Independence, Climate Action, Legislative Push
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
>> Zach (00:00):
Foreign.
(00:04):
Hello, and welcome to the Green Tea Party, where we
discuss conservative solutions to environmental problems. My name is Zach
Torpy.
>> Katie (00:11):
I'm Katie Zachreski. Together we'll guide you through
complex issues and provide strategies to address them. Um,
all while remaining faithful to our conservative
values.
>> Zach (00:20):
Trust me, it'll be a good time.
>> Katie (00:22):
Yeah, it's a party, so grab your mugs and
we'll pour the tea.
Carbon price this, C. Bam
that. I don't know what's going on. If you
feel like me anytime you check the news. Um, and Zach, you
could probably sympathize with this. It feels like they're talking
about something climate related and something economic,
(00:42):
and the carbon price is both. And
we've spent a lot of the last few weeks talking about
Canadian carbon pricing and Canadian
shenanigans and a, uh, theoretical
carbon price and what that might look like if conservatives got
involved. Well, ladies and gentlemen, uh, behold
may your patriotism tangle, because
today we're going to be talking about the American carbon price,
(01:05):
which is better than the el Canadian carbon
price just by factor of being
American. But before we get a.
But before we get into that, Zach, what all's been
going on in your world lately and what's on your mind
politically? Uh, pick a topic and run with it. I think you
can pick, like, literally anything on earth at this
point.
>> Zach (01:25):
Well, the Pope died, and that was sad.
>> Katie (01:26):
Yeah, the Pope died.
>> Zach (01:28):
Every time I read about the Pope in, like, history books, it's always like,
how bad the Pope was, like, doing the Crusades and, like,
doing all sorts of messed up. And you're like. Then you're like, ah, our Pope was kind of
chill. He's a cool guy.
>> Katie (01:38):
You know, by all. By all things considered,
where some popes burned people at the stake.
Um, even without that
outlier. Ah, in the. In the group. But Pope Francis was a pretty
cool dude. I don't know if I've told you about this so
far. This is literally how I reacted to the news
when I found out. Because this whole time I've been like, no, he better not die.
(01:58):
He better not die. He better not die. It's a jubilee year. It's a very
busy year. He better not go anywhere.
Well, I will tell you.
>> Zach (02:05):
Things to do.
>> Katie (02:06):
Yeah, we got things to do. Do not ruin our
regularly scheduled programming. Do not. I have checked my
planner and nowhere in it do we have covering a dead
Pope. Unfortunately, God saw my planner and
laughed because I woke up Easter Monday. Now, Holy Week
is like the worst week in the world for somebody in Catholic you.
Because as much as I love Holy week, you're covering 4, 000
(02:26):
different events and getting, uh, a bunch of written copy out
there and taking photos. And that's not
even like touching on all the stuff that you're doing
in celebration. So I was already exhausted from the
whole week before. I Woke up at 5:30 in the
morning because for whatever reason,
that's the time that my body has randomly decided I need to wake up. And
(02:46):
usually every time I do, I just check my phone to see what time it
is and then go back to sleep. Well,
Easter Monday, I made the mistake of checking my
phone and I saw that one
friend had tagged me in a post on Discord
and said, do not read. So naturally,
you already know what I did. I clicked on it. I was
(03:07):
like, which of my friends is messaging me
at 3:30 in the morning telling me not to read whatever they just found?
And now I absolutely have to, um, and I
opened it and I saw Pope Francis dead at 88 by
AP news. Now, my first
thought, which, uh, in hindsight was
probably one of the sharpest thoughts I could have had, all things considered.
(03:27):
I had literally just woken up, I was so tired
and I was like, hm, I'm in media,
Catholic media specifically.
And I'm subscribed to like the wa, the New York Times.
Anytime a president farts, I know about it three times
over. And for whatever
reason, I had zero notifications
other than this person tagging me on Discord. So
(03:50):
the first thing I googled at
5:35 in the morning was Pope Francis
dead hoax. Because I thought for sure it was like one of those,
like, Facebook posts where it's like Morgan Freeman just died at
69 years old or whatever. And so I was like, nah,
he's just trolling me. This is like some boomer fodder right here. This
is not true. And so I googled it and the first thing
that popped up was the AP News article. And so then I googled
(04:12):
AP News. Hacked. Like, my brain was like really
running in circles trying to find a way to bring the Pope
back to Life at 5:30 on Easter Monday.
But, uh, alas, no, he was dead. I was just way ahead of the ball game.
So, yeah, that's been a pretty hellish week now,
just putting up with that. Well, I say it like, I'm,
um, You know, I got my emergency letter summoning me to the
(04:33):
Vatican now. It's just like, kind of stressful because you can tell that
everybody who's Catholic right now is really apprehensive about, you
know, what do the next few weeks look like? Who are
they going to pick? Is who they're going to pick. For me in particular, my
concern is, are they going to be as big of an environmentalist as Pope Francis?
This was. Stay tuned in the next coming weeks. Free.
Yeah, yeah, I know. As much as I want to have my hopes
up. Unlikely. Stay tuned over the next couple of weeks for a
(04:56):
Katie specific episode where I talk all about
Pope, uh, Francis, creation, care, legacy, and what that means for
other religious communities, not just Catholics. But. Yeah. And
I read a report this morning from one of the cardinals who was like, well, none of
us really know each other, so it's probably going to be a pretty long conclave
to elect the next pope. They're normally two to three weeks, but this one's probably going
to be quite a bit longer. So I have no idea. I'm just on
(05:16):
pins and needles waiting for the moment that I need to. Yeah.
Immediately write a statement, because I'm not on the Vatican's Rolodex,
and nor should I be. I'm not that important.
>> Zach (05:25):
I've. I have two funny notes to add into this.
>> Katie (05:28):
I'm ready.
Let's hear it.
>> Zach (05:30):
First one kind of funny. His last big meeting was with
J.D. vance.
>> Katie (05:34):
Yeah.
>> Zach (05:35):
Look around. Like, oops, what did I do?
>> Katie (05:37):
I have a running theory that J.D. vance flew back
to the White House with a soul orb in his briefcase
that the Pope was, like, banging on the inside of, trying to get
out m. Because he was like, I'm praying for your health,
Pope Francis. And my immediate question was, for or against?
I guess we know the answer now. Um, so,
yeah, J.D. vance got the soul cube. Um,
(05:58):
not who I had my money on. Um,
so what. What was your other
anecdote?
>> Zach (06:08):
The level of marketing
done.
>> Katie (06:11):
Yeah.
>> Zach (06:12):
For the movie Conclave Now.
>> Katie (06:14):
Yeah.
>> Zach (06:15):
Like, they timed that.
>> Katie (06:16):
I was about to say. I think they really waited till he
was, like, as old as you could possibly get, and then was like, hey, we
got a movie you guys might want to watch.
>> Zach (06:25):
They're like pneumonia. Put this, put that.
>> Katie (06:27):
Yeah. The moment Pope Francis coughed, they were like, do we
have the movie for you? Which I've heard has
been very good. Like, I've read Catholic media reviews, and I've read
secular media reviews, and they've all said that it was a really good movie.
I mean, no joke. I think it won an Oscar. So, yeah,
I'm definitely gonna check it out, especially because it's super.
I think I'll check it out after we get a new Pope. Because, like, right now
(06:48):
I'm like, so anxious, I don't even want to consume media related to
anything like that.
So, yeah, also horrible week for.
Not weak, but horrible year for it to happen. Not that there's
ever a good year for the Pope to die, but. And I
realized that, like, not a lot of non Catholics know about this because this has
been my whole world for like a long time
now. But this year in particular was a
(07:10):
jubilee year, which only happens every
25 years.
>> Zach (07:13):
What's a jubilee?
>> Katie (07:15):
So a jubilee year is like, every 25
years, there's a big celebration in the church. They like, come up with a
theme, they open the jubilee doors in Rome. Like,
it's a huge event. Like, the Pope opens them. Um, and then
like, whatever the theme is for that year, Catholics all
across the world, like, participate in the theme. So
this year it's Pilgrims of Hope. And so a lot of people
(07:35):
were taking pilgrimages to Rome. I actually knew a group that was in
Rome this past week while the Pope's funeral and
everything was going on. They got there like their plane
landed and then they were given the announcement that the Pope had died to let
you know, like, how the timing went for them.
But so, yeah, so, so
my next question would have been, okay, are the rest of the flights discounted
(07:56):
if, like, half of what we came here for is no longer
valid? Um, but who knows? Maybe
they would have charged it more because that's like a rare event. I don't know.
But it's like, it was a huge year for
celebrating. Um, still is, obviously. I
mean, now it's just got a little bit of a hiccup in it. Um,
but there were also a bunch of other, like, environmental
(08:16):
specific celebrations going on. So it was like the 10th
anniversary of the. I keep saying was. It
still is. Even in spite of the pro being dead, we're still
celebrating things. It's just a stranger
lens through which we're celebrating. I know I'm in
more like it's. No, no more jubilee year. Jubilee. You're
canceled. Um, yeah, no, it's all canceled. No church
till 2026. But, um, yeah, so we
(08:38):
were like, also celebrating the 10 year anniversary of his
encyclical about caring for creation.
It's the 800th anniversary of St. Francis's
who's like, the big environmental site is a
canticle of creation. So I mean, it was just like,
if there, there could not have been a worse year for
a Pope to die. No disrespect, Papa
Frank. But, uh, yeah, no, because now,
(09:01):
like, all of the language around these things are having to be
like. I'll put it like this. After getting some
statements out after the Pope's death a week ago
today, I was like, okay, now I get to rewrite everything
I've written for the last five
months to account for.
Hi. We can't celebrate that much. The Pope is dead. So,
yeah, pray for all your friends who are not only Catholic, but who are
(09:24):
Catholic media, because, uh, we're going to join Pope
Francis here soon if this, if this stuff doesn't stop all
that to go down the convoluted rabbit hole of the carbon
price.
All right, now that our 3 to 5 minute
banter has gone about 10 minutes long, let me tell
you all about the carbon price. So Zach's
facts have been packed full of Canadian
(09:44):
carbon pricing stats. And I'm sure you're ready to hear, to smell a little
bit of capitalistic democratic freedom
again. So, yeah, uh, yeah, a little bit of
American exceptionalism. Can you, can you hear,
can you see the flag waving behind me in your head? So
let's talk about the American carbon price. So I was the first
introduced to the American carbon price through a little
(10:04):
old organization that we've mentioned just a couple times on this
show called Citizens Climate Lobby. And, um, for the
longest, Citizens Climate Lobby has been known as the carbon
price people, also known as the carbon fee and dividend
people. So while I think Zach and I have
been surrounded by this language and these people and
these actors, and we're familiar with it and have been for
years, I realize that a lot of this might
(10:27):
sound like Greek to a lot of y'all. So I'm
going to attempt to deconstruct this big
picture model and kind of paint an image of what a
carbon price, an American carbon price, at least is, uh, compared
to its Canadian counterpart and some of the other
mechanisms that take place within the American carbon pricing,
I guess, picturesque frame. So this is a
(10:47):
carbon fee and dividend model designed to address
climate change by encouraging businesses to reduce their carbon
emissions, notably by issuing them a fine or
a fee for a certain amount of carbon pollution.
So the idea is to impose a price on carbon
emissions, which incentivizes companies and
individuals to switch to cleaner, more sustainable practices
(11:08):
and technologies. Um, and it's, it's more effective
than a carbon cap and trade system, which just kind of lets you,
like, buy and sell your pollution. I mean,
I'm not a big fan of cap and trade. And we could have a Whole
episode just on that. I think we have in the past on some of the
drawbacks of the cap and trade system. The American
carbon price is structured and designed to avoid
some of those loopholes that are provided in the cap and
(11:30):
trade system. So let's talk a little bit more about the carbon fee
and dividend model, AKA that American carbon
price. So I'll be
talking primarily about the model that's been proposed by
CCL because quite frankly, it's gotten the most,
I think, legislative push behind it. They've been
going at that, at this for 15 years. As I
(11:50):
said, they're the carbon pricing people. If you're working on a
carbon price or a carbon fee and dividend, you're calling CCL
to talk about it. Uh, so a lot of what I talk about is
going to largely be taken by a lot of the narrative that CCL has
set because they are the carbon pricing people. So
their carbon price in particular, which is the most
popularly, as far as I'm concerned, as
far as I know of, uh, most popularly accepted
(12:13):
variant of the American carbon pricing model
revolves around the concept of a carbon fee
that is placed on fossil fuels. So namely
based on the amount of carbon dioxide CO2 emissions
that a company or an organization produces. So here
are some of the key components of that carbon fee and dividend
model. So there's the carbon fee. So a fee would
(12:33):
be levied on fossil fuels based on the
CO2 emissions they produce when burned. So this
fee starts at a fixed price per ton of
CO2 emissions and increases
annually. So companies and organizations have the
opportunity to pay the fee and to stop polluting or they're just
going to get charged more and more and more every single
year. So the idea is that the fee will
(12:56):
rise gradually over time to provide
businesses and consumers with the incentives and with
a respectable amount of time, a feasible amount of time
to switch to cleaner alternatives. So the fee is
applied at the point of entry, which could be at the
wellhead, the port of entry, uh, or other
similar places where, where fossil fuels officially enter the
economy. So that's one part of this carbon fee and
(13:18):
dividend model that is known as the carbon price. Another
component is the carbon dividend portion
portion. So the money raised from the
carbon fee levied against polluting companies
would then be returned to American households in the form
of a dividend. So this means that the
revenue generated from the carbon fee would be distributed
evenly to all legal US residents
(13:41):
as a rebate or a check, with priority
given to lower and middle income class American
families. So the, the intention is that the dividend would help
offset any higher costs that
consumers might face as businesses pass on the price of
carbon fee to their customers.
As you know, the price of things changes to
accommodate for this carbon fee and dividend. It is a way to
(14:04):
sure that ensure that the policy is
progressive and that it is not regressive. Thank
you, Zach. Uh, Zach, see you. You know, numbers
and words. So what do I even do for a living?
>> Zach (14:15):
Yeah, so like when. So the richer people will be flying
more, spending more on high influence goods or high
carbon intensity goods and they'll pay more
into it, but it'll be. The dividend will be
received equally so that people who are
using less still get. They get more
than they put in.
>> Katie (14:33):
Absolutely.
>> Zach (14:34):
People who have lower incomes will get more.
>> Katie (14:36):
Bingo. Which is something that we had talked about a little bit, I think,
rubbing Canadians the wrong way in the way that the uh, Canadian
carbon price was enacted and that where the American
carbon price is set up so that immediately the moment
that the product enters the market, it is set up in a way
so that it will ultimately benefit low income
and middle class families. Whereas with the Canadian
(14:57):
carbon price you had a lot of people immediately feeling the pain
at the pump and then not feeling like the price that
they got on the rebate justified just how much
they were having to pay more frequently at the pump. Which I think in
some cases might very well be the case. We talked a little bit about that
in that episode. So definitely go, go check out
Zach's Canadian carbon pricing episode for a little bit of a refresher. Sorry
(15:18):
to cut you off, Zach.
>> Zach (15:19):
Yeah, I think we said that they were going to be paying an extra like 38
cents per gallon, which is
pretty mhm. Hefty if you people here would go.
>> Katie (15:27):
Absolutely insane if you said that today.
So yeah, and for us to be like one of the crazier
countries and for Canada to be like one of the
less crazy countries, if they reacted the way that they did,
you can probably imagine how that would go over here and that it
wouldn't. So yeah, excellent point, Zach. So the
primary goal of this carbon, the
American carbon pricing model is to encourage businesses
(15:49):
and individuals to reduce carbon emissions by
making fossil fuels more expensive, but and by
incentivizing cleaner energy sources, which means that over
time m the increasing price on carbon should
lead to a significant reduction in the emissions and
drive innovation in the renewable energy
technologies.
So obviously there's a second component of this
(16:10):
that we haven't talked about a lot recently. But we have
talked a lot about it in the past, and it's worth a
refresher. And that's the carbon border adjustment
mechanism, also called a cbam.
Uh, you've probably heard C bands come up a lot
lately in recent news. Zach, you and I were just talking here a few
minutes ago about. I believe it was Senator Lindsey
Graham and. Oh, please help me. I think he's from
(16:32):
Louisiana.
>> Zach (16:33):
Yes, from Louisiana, yes, yes.
>> Katie (16:35):
Uh, and both of them are working on some legislation related to that
right now. Did you have a little more information on that? I didn't get a chance to
dive too deeply into that here.
>> Zach (16:44):
I mean, they're still trying to get the
verbiage built out. It's still in
committee, I believe, so it's not coming
out yet. EU does have. They have their own,
uh, carbon border adjustment mechanism that they are implementing
now. Not sure when it's gonna be fully implemented, but we
have to be aware that we're gonna have to be paying a carbon
adjustment for imports into or
(17:06):
exports into Europe.
So this is a policy that's
being implemented in other countries. And I think it's a policy that could
be really effective for. We know
Trump's favorite word is tariff, so.
>> Katie (17:19):
Huh.
>> Zach (17:20):
I think it could be an effective way to levy a tariff
with a goal and a point.
Because a lot of Trump's tariffs feel very,
um. I don't know, they feel very off the cuff,
not calculated to meet.
>> Katie (17:34):
Countries are confused with not. Not. Not number oriented
at all, it seems like.
>> Zach (17:38):
Yeah. So this would give countries be like, we are
putting this tariff on you for this reason because you are polluting
this much more than we do. And this would give that country
incentive to pollute less. It would also
protect American companies by adding this
additional pollution fee to cover all the
pollution that China has. Vietnam, that don't
(17:58):
have the same environmental requirements that the US does in protecting
our environment. So it'll sort of. It'll level
out the playing field.
>> Katie (18:06):
Absolutely. And obviously, it would go without
saying that it's exciting any
time that we're talking about this, that two
conservatives, particularly from the south, would
be investigating legislation to make this a
reality. But that's exactly what's going on. And it's even
bigger right now, I think, because it's under a Trump
presidency. So I think that this shows that even when all the
(18:28):
odds would be stacked against environmentalists and
conservatives, lo and behold, the common sense
appears to be prevailing. Knock, uh, on wood for that. But
clearly, that indicates, I think, that this
is a way of
Tackling an environmental issue in a way that's so
economically feasible that you've got the party that
touts economic feasibility investigating it. Uh, so
(18:50):
there's clearly something of meat and substance here,
particularly when it comes to protecting ourselves in our
market against the EU and even countries like
Russia and China, which is one of the biggest compelling arguments for a
carbon border adjustment mechanism. But we'll get more into that here in a
minute.
So let's talk a little bit more about a carbon border adjustment mechanism in
general. So a CBAM is the idea. It's an
idea, pardon me, that would complement the carbon price. It
(19:13):
specifically addresses international trade
concerns. So essentially, a CBAM aims to
prevent what is known as carbon leakage, where
businesses move production to countries with less stringent
carbon regulations. So a CBM
ensures that imports into the US are subject
to the same carbon pricing mechanisms as domestic goods.
So this helps to level the playing field. Exactly as you
(19:35):
said, Zach, um, between US manufacturers who
face the carbon fee and foreign competitors who may
not have to pay such a price for their emissions. So
the way that it works is that a carbon tariff,
that fabulous little T word you just mentioned, Zach,
or adjustment, is imposed on imported
goods based on their carbon content. So that means that
(19:56):
products like steel, cement,
other industrial goods that are super carbon intensive
in their manufacturing will have their emissions priced
accordingly. So that tariff will be
calculated based on the carbon emissions associated with the
production of that good in the country of
origin. And if the country of origin doesn't have an
equivalent carbon pricing system or less stringent
(20:18):
regulations, then the tariff would be higher in order
to compensate for this disparity. So
one of the key objectives of a CBAM
is to encourage other countries to adopt similar
carbon pricing policies in order to reduce the risk
of carbon leakage. And it also aims to
push global trade towards more sustainable
(20:38):
practices. So obviously, the CBAM would need
to comply with international trade rules,
particularly regulations based on, set, uh,
up by the World Trade Organization. So obviously a
CBAM right out of the gate has to be set up in a way that,
that's fair and transparent to all players
involved. So we've talked a lot about the economics of
it. Let's talk, um, just, uh, a fraction about the
(21:00):
environmental impact. You're probably picking up a lot of what we're putting down
reading in between the lines here anyway. So the goal of
the CBAM is to help reduce global
carbon emissions by ensuring that international
trade doesn't undermine domestic climate
policies. It seals that loophole. That's, again,
very apparent. In a lot of cap and trade systems where it's okay,
well then I'll just buy it either through a third party in
(21:23):
another country or I'll just have all my stuff done there. So
it, it actively seeks to combat that from the jump.
If it works, a CBAM can encourage other countries
to adopt stronger climate policies or face economic
penalties. So obviously there's been a lot of talk about
CBAMs in recent years, particularly
following the beginning of the war in
(21:43):
Ukraine, the Russian Ukraine war. No telling
what they're going to call that in the history books. No telling.
>> Zach (21:48):
No, but I think jokes to myself.
>> Katie (21:50):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, don't get us canceled
any more than we already are eligible to be canceled just
by nature of existing. But I think that that's when a lot of people
started to investigate the feasibility of a CBAM as
well as a carbon price in general. Because a lot of people realize, hmm hm.
When you put your energy control in the hands
of a dictator, you're at the mercy of a crazy
(22:10):
dictator who can overnight completely change
your fuel supply and pricing and
storage and everything. So I know that us here in the US
we began to look more closely at that. I began hearing
more frequently about CBAMs following Russia's invasion of
Ukraine as more of a national
defense mechanism when it comes to economic policy and
(22:30):
trade. Zach, what are your thoughts on that? Have you
personally noticed an uptick since the Russia Ukraine
war of folks Talking more about CBAMs and carbon
pricing a little more seriously?
>> Zach (22:41):
It seems like it's gained some traction I think, especially with the
EU implementing theirs, that we're gonna have to get
more serious about our carbon emissions and how
they're being traded around the world. I think it, I think
it really could be useful as a way for, to
form more of a natural national security blanket around the
US and sort of give
(23:01):
a reason to home to bring manufacturing
back home. And it'll give a more stable,
predictable uh, tariff that won't be
because right now we have the very unpredictable
90 days. Maybe it's on, maybe it's off again.
>> Katie (23:14):
Right. Or just overnight depending on what
the yeah country on the receiving end
says.
>> Zach (23:21):
So, so companies aren't going to build
a fifty hundred million dollar
production facility when they don't, when they think the
rules might change in a week or two and they might be able to go back to their
Mexico facility, Vietnamese facility. So
something that's a little more consistent and uh,
planned forward so that companies know how to project their
profits, project their costs and can build out.
(23:43):
But I think it's really important. I think we always harp on this as
the national security of reducing our reliance
on foreign oil and foreign leaders.
And just every time, the first, first
thing Trump does when he gets elected is give. Makes a call to, like, Saudi
Arabia,
Muhammad Bin Salam, and
he's not a great guy. We don't want to be reliant on them.
(24:06):
Saudi Arabia is moving more into the influence of
China. We need to produce some separation
from them and not be reliant on them. We did under the Biden
administration. We did become, like, the largest
exporter of oil. So we
are net, net, uh,
exporter of fossil fuels right now.
And in my opinion, every,
(24:28):
every gallon or barrel less that we don't use is something that
we can export and make more money off of. So I just view
it as a competitive standpoint of
reducing your resource consumption and exporting
for profit.
>> Katie (24:41):
Don't get high off your own supplies access. Sell it for
a profit instead.
>> Zach (24:45):
Exactly.
>> Katie (24:47):
Well done, kingpin. All right. But, yeah, no, I
completely agree with you. I think that once we realize that there's money to be
made there by consuming less, um, um,
you're right. We'd be making money hand over fist. It's just waking people
up to the reality that that can be achieved without
relying on dictators and terrorists and dictator, um, and
terrorist allies for our most prized
resources and energy.
>> Zach (25:08):
And if we. And another point of the unpredictability of the
tariffs is it is sort of biting us in
our own. But because now China
is canceling all contracts with Boeing, they're canceling all
natural gas imports from the US and they had, they were
one of our major export, one of the countries we export a lot
to. So it's sort of we need to
(25:29):
plan forward and be clear and
communicate what we want. And the
confusion that Trump's sort of intermixed into his
trade policy is causing a lot of
uncertainty, which is not great for my stock portfolio.
>> Katie (25:43):
Somebody let Trump know that we can't export to
ourselves. Um, I think that once he
figures that out, I don't know where he's planning on getting
all this stuff, but, uh, we, we can't send it to
ourselves.
So let's talk a little bit more about the relationship
between a carbon price and CBAMs, and
then I'll talk a little bit more about, um, some of the global
(26:05):
and domestic economic and political considerations
to bringing a carbon price on a CBAM
to life. So firstly, the CBAM and the
carbon border adjustment fee, or the carbon fee and dividend
together the carbon fee and dividend approach and the carbon border
adjustment aim to reduce domestic emissions
and ensure that the US Is not at a competitive
(26:25):
disadvantage when it comes to participating in global
markets because they've got a strong climate
policy. So this is where I know we talk a lot on the
show about conservatives needing to embrace the balance
between economics and conservation. And
this is a key example of that. The carbon fee itself
creates a strong economic and incentive for
(26:45):
US businesses and consumers to reduce their carbon
emissions, while the CBAM addresses the global
aspect by ensuring that imports are held to
similar standards, which prevents industries from
relocating to countries that have weaker
environmental regulations. So the carbon fee and
dividend approach has gained a significant amount of
support among moderate Democrats and some Republicans, especially
(27:07):
due to the dividend aspect, which appeals to those
concerned about the economic impact on
consumers. It is seen as a way to address climate
change while mitigating potential economic hardship for low
and middle income families. But some of the pushback
that I've seen related to this is that it doesn't end.
Obviously you'll know what our opinion is on this show. A lot of folks
say that it doesn't go far enough and that it only
(27:30):
respects. Well, maybe I shouldn't say respects. It only gives
a like dividend
back to American citizen families. So
undocumented folks are pretty much left out of the
equation. And a lot of indigenous indigenous communities have not
been interacted with for discussing the
intricacies of what a carbon fee and dividend
returned to indigenous communities might look like. So a lot of
(27:52):
indigenous communities are largely left out of it as well. So
um, that's a lot of the critique that comes from Democrats that are
a little bit further left. If you might be wondering why aren't
Democrats supporting an environmental policy, well, that would be
why they don't feel that it goes far enough. Another thing to consider
is that in the case of the American carbon price, there have
been a lot of exceptions made. And I don't have the full
(28:12):
list in front of me, but I know that it's military
transportation. So like trucking,
agriculture, um,
I think I said transportation. So like aircraft flights, I
think was, was one of the ones included. But there are several sectors
that have been exempt from
falling within the jurisdiction of a carbon fee and
dividend as a way to appeal to the widest audience
(28:33):
available while also not too
grossly causing economic upset in a direction and
in sectors that aren't the primary
intention of the carbon price. So that's something to keep
in mind.
>> Zach (28:45):
Always got to make sure you have something in there to protect farmers because they already.
>> Katie (28:48):
Exactly. Oh, yeah, oh yeah, right.
>> Zach (28:50):
Center up and down.
>> Katie (28:51):
Yeah. And I think that that's something that is very
unique, I think, to the U.S. obviously there's
farmers everywhere and there's going to be farmers in Europe as
well. But when you look at the numbers of just how
few farmers there are here in the US and just how many people they
have to feed. Yeah, I agree with you completely, Zach.
Farmers needed all the legs up that they can get. And, uh,
so the CBAM and carbon price folks are pretty smart when it came to
(29:14):
crafting legislation to make sure that they weren't dinging these
folks once again. And I think a lot of that also
created a lot of buy in from folks on the right whose immediate
protests were going to be military and
agriculture. So. Excellent.
>> Zach (29:26):
Maybe Bill Cassidy foresight. Maybe Bill Cassidy, Lindsey
Graham learned some lessons watching, uh, the farmers in Europe and how they
protest.
>> Katie (29:32):
Actually, like, like, I know we joke.
>> Zach (29:34):
We don't want to piss them off.
>> Katie (29:36):
Yeah, I think that's legitimately, I think they realize, yeah, we
don't want to piss off the folks that have like 3 tons of
manure at their disposal at any given time. We operate
out of buildings that are primarily white. Maybe we, maybe
we should invite that upon themselves. A good idea.
Let's talk a little bit about the international component of
bringing this to life as well. So the CBAM
(29:56):
becomes a little more contentious when there's more players
involved, which means it gets a little more contentious when it's on the
international stage. So it might incentivize some countries
to implement their own carbon pricing systems. But I
also lead to trade tensions, particularly with nations
that have a less robust climate policy. So the
US would need to engage diplomatically to ensure that the
(30:16):
mechanism doesn't violate trade agreements and is perceived as
fair globally. I know that, uh, some of the countries that are
always brought up anytime that I lobby
conservative offices in support of a carbon price
are always, well, what does this do about China, India and Russia? Those
are always the three that are mentioned. Well, it's
a carbon border adjustment mechanism.
They will have to face some of the same fines and
(30:38):
penalties that everybody else does. That's how the fee
works. So it's always interesting to hear them
talk about it or about these countries
first. When we can't control what these countries do on their
own time for themselves, we do have
a say in how they interact with us, uh, which is where the
CBAM comes in. So obviously it's meant to create a more
level playing field again. And another thing
(31:01):
to consider here is that I think it also gives us protection
against countries that might not be completely
honest with us. My immediate first thought is
China. Obviously, I think a lot of people realize
just how bad China fudges the numbers on, like
everything during the COVID
pandemic, because the numbers that China was
reporting were nowhere near the numbers that everybody else
(31:23):
had. So you don't exactly want to play fair
with somebody who's just making the numbers up every single day.
China might say that they've got the best climate possible, see, in the whole
wide world, and maybe they've got one that's better than ours. But
I'm not going to believe China's numbers on how China's performing on
the environment, because I can't believe China's numbers on how China's performing
on anything. So this carbon border
(31:43):
adjustment mechanism would have some hard and fast
rules in place to prevent a lot of that loosey
goosey, uh, I just made it up. That's my source from happening
from a lot of other countries. So that's something to keep in mind
as well. And when it comes to the World
Trade Organization, obviously, as mentioned earlier, the CBAM
would have to be within WTO compliance. And in
order to comply with those rules, the CBM
(32:06):
would need to ensure that it doesn't discriminate against
specific countries, but instead imposes tariffs
on all imports according to their carbon emissions without
unduly harming developing economies that might not have
the resources to even implement a similar carbon
pricing system for themselves. So obviously it would
have to make sure that it does not disparage any
(32:26):
country that is more likely to face the negative repercussions of
climate change than it is to exacerbate the effects
of climate change.
So the American Carbon Price and its sister
carbon border adjustment mechanism are both designed to
tackle climate change by pricing carbon emissions
and incentivizing, uh, sustainable practices, while
(32:48):
also addressing the risk of carbon leakage in international
trade. So this has got a nice balance of
domestic policy, international trade
agreements, and they all represent a robust
approach to reducing emissions and fostering global
cooperation on climate action. So the key
to its success is going to lie in careful
implementation, uh, obviously bipartisan
(33:10):
support. We saw what happens, um, back
in, what,
2022, when you have
one party and one party alone pass climate
legislation, the other party will harp on it for the rest of their
lives. So obviously this is going to need to be
bipartisan. So I'm really encouraged to see that
conservatives are leading the talks on this because they're the ones that I would expect
(33:30):
to be a little bit hesitant. So hopefully enough moderate
Democrats will come to the table for this to be considered
bipartisan legislation in the near future. So we'll just have to
see what happens from there. We'll keep you updated here.
Hopefully, as we hope, uh, good things work out
with Senator Graham and Senator
Cassidy as they do their own investigation on
carbon pricing and carbon border adjustment mechanisms. Yeah.
>> Zach (33:53):
And hopefully. So for some action steps, hopefully we can get
people out and telling their senators and congressmen that they want this
and that they're interested in what these people are doing.
>> Katie (34:01):
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Zach, excellent segue.
I know. Always on the show, for action steps, we're telling people,
call your member of Congress. Oh, my God. Do it now. Call your member
of Congress. Let them know that you support a
carbon price and a carbon border adjustment mechanism. As
a young conservative environmentalist, those would be the key words.
That's like saying you're a unicorn. The moment you say those
(34:22):
words, everybody in the office is listening to what you're saying because
they can't believe they've got a unicorn on the phone. So
call your member of Congress and let them know that as a young
conservative, you are concerned about the environment
and you are in support of a carbon price and a
carbon border adjustment mechanism. And hopefully you know a little bit
more about the Canadian carbon price from
Zach's episode that you. So that if they bring that up, you can tell them, uh, ah,
(34:44):
not really. Ours is better because it's American.
So seriously, though, do a little bit of research on the American
carbon price, a little bit of research on what Senators
Graham and Cassidy are proposing. Um, and see how
you feel about that. See what your thoughts are and be sure that your member of
Congress knows it. They make seven figures a year. Make them earn
it.
>> Zach (35:04):
Yep. Get out. Go out and get them.
>> Katie (35:06):
Yeah. Pester your member of Congress. Do it. They
can't stop you. It's their job. They can't hang
up on you, by the way. Now, that's not incentive to, like, leave
them on the phone for three hours that they cannot hang up
on you. So if you call your member of Congress's office, be real
nice, but keep in mind you hold
the floor.
For you, our listener. Email us with your thoughts.
(35:29):
Our email is info greentea
partyradio.
>> Zach (35:34):
Thank you for listening to Green Tea Party Radio. And a very special
thank you to all of our patrons. We couldn't just do this
without you.
If you're interested in getting early access to episodes, well as Green Tea
Party Radio merch, check us out @greent party
radio.com via feedback. Tell us what's your mind
on. Follow us on Facebook, Instagram X and
TikTok.
>> Katie (35:53):
And just so you know, this is our passion project.
We don't have any organizational sponsor. And just a
reminder that Green Tea Party Radio is not representative
of the Diocese of Little Rock, uh, Catholic Climate Covenant, or
any of our employers. We are just building a
movement because we want the world to know that conservatives, particularly
young ones like us, have important things to. To say about
(36:13):
climate change.
>> Zach (36:14):
If you want to hear us on your radio station, your college
radio station, email us at info greent party
radio.com and give us a feed. Give us a detail about your campus
and your radio station. That email again is info
greent party radio.com.
thanks for listening.
>> Katie (36:30):
Thank you for listening.
We did it.
>> Zach (36:36):
Yeah.
>> Katie (36:37):
Good episode. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah.
>> Zach (36:39):
Just go, C Bam.
>> Katie (36:41):
Yeah. Let's go, C Bam. I'm team C Bam.
Yeah. Let's get my mascot, the cbam, in the room, and
it's like a killer whale.
Foreign.
(00:04):
Hello, and welcome to the Green Tea Party, where we
discuss conservative solutions to environmental problems. My name is Zach
Torpy.
>> Katie (00:11):
I'm Katie Zachreski. Together we'll guide you through
complex issues and provide strategies to address them. Um,
all while remaining faithful to our conservative
values.
>> Zach (00:20):
Trust me, it'll be a good time.
>> Katie (00:22):
Yeah, it's a party, so grab your mugs and
we'll pour the tea.
Carbon price this, C. Bam
that. I don't know what's going on. If you
feel like me anytime you check the news. Um, and Zach, you
could probably sympathize with this. It feels like they're talking
about something climate related and something economic,
(00:42):
and the carbon price is both. And
we've spent a lot of the last few weeks talking about
Canadian carbon pricing and Canadian
shenanigans and a, uh, theoretical
carbon price and what that might look like if conservatives got
involved. Well, ladies and gentlemen, uh, behold
may your patriotism tangle, because
today we're going to be talking about the American carbon price,
(01:05):
which is better than the el Canadian carbon
price just by factor of being
American. But before we get a.
But before we get into that, Zach, what all's been
going on in your world lately and what's on your mind
politically? Uh, pick a topic and run with it. I think you
can pick, like, literally anything on earth at this
point.
>> Zach (01:25):
Well, the Pope died, and that was sad.
>> Katie (01:26):
Yeah, the Pope died.
>> Zach (01:28):
Every time I read about the Pope in, like, history books, it's always like,
how bad the Pope was, like, doing the Crusades and, like,
doing all sorts of messed up. And you're like. Then you're like, ah, our Pope was kind of
chill. He's a cool guy.
>> Katie (01:38):
You know, by all. By all things considered,
where some popes burned people at the stake.
Um, even without that
outlier. Ah, in the. In the group. But Pope Francis was a pretty
cool dude. I don't know if I've told you about this so
far. This is literally how I reacted to the news
when I found out. Because this whole time I've been like, no, he better not die.
(01:58):
He better not die. He better not die. It's a jubilee year. It's a very
busy year. He better not go anywhere.
Well, I will tell you.
>> Zach (02:05):
Things to do.
>> Katie (02:06):
Yeah, we got things to do. Do not ruin our
regularly scheduled programming. Do not. I have checked my
planner and nowhere in it do we have covering a dead
Pope. Unfortunately, God saw my planner and
laughed because I woke up Easter Monday. Now, Holy Week
is like the worst week in the world for somebody in Catholic you.
Because as much as I love Holy week, you're covering 4, 000
(02:26):
different events and getting, uh, a bunch of written copy out
there and taking photos. And that's not
even like touching on all the stuff that you're doing
in celebration. So I was already exhausted from the
whole week before. I Woke up at 5:30 in the
morning because for whatever reason,
that's the time that my body has randomly decided I need to wake up. And
(02:46):
usually every time I do, I just check my phone to see what time it
is and then go back to sleep. Well,
Easter Monday, I made the mistake of checking my
phone and I saw that one
friend had tagged me in a post on Discord
and said, do not read. So naturally,
you already know what I did. I clicked on it. I was
(03:07):
like, which of my friends is messaging me
at 3:30 in the morning telling me not to read whatever they just found?
And now I absolutely have to, um, and I
opened it and I saw Pope Francis dead at 88 by
AP news. Now, my first
thought, which, uh, in hindsight was
probably one of the sharpest thoughts I could have had, all things considered.
(03:27):
I had literally just woken up, I was so tired
and I was like, hm, I'm in media,
Catholic media specifically.
And I'm subscribed to like the wa, the New York Times.
Anytime a president farts, I know about it three times
over. And for whatever
reason, I had zero notifications
other than this person tagging me on Discord. So
(03:50):
the first thing I googled at
5:35 in the morning was Pope Francis
dead hoax. Because I thought for sure it was like one of those,
like, Facebook posts where it's like Morgan Freeman just died at
69 years old or whatever. And so I was like, nah,
he's just trolling me. This is like some boomer fodder right here. This
is not true. And so I googled it and the first thing
that popped up was the AP News article. And so then I googled
(04:12):
AP News. Hacked. Like, my brain was like really
running in circles trying to find a way to bring the Pope
back to Life at 5:30 on Easter Monday.
But, uh, alas, no, he was dead. I was just way ahead of the ball game.
So, yeah, that's been a pretty hellish week now,
just putting up with that. Well, I say it like, I'm,
um, You know, I got my emergency letter summoning me to the
(04:33):
Vatican now. It's just like, kind of stressful because you can tell that
everybody who's Catholic right now is really apprehensive about, you
know, what do the next few weeks look like? Who are
they going to pick? Is who they're going to pick. For me in particular, my
concern is, are they going to be as big of an environmentalist as Pope Francis?
This was. Stay tuned in the next coming weeks. Free.
Yeah, yeah, I know. As much as I want to have my hopes
up. Unlikely. Stay tuned over the next couple of weeks for a
(04:56):
Katie specific episode where I talk all about
Pope, uh, Francis, creation, care, legacy, and what that means for
other religious communities, not just Catholics. But. Yeah. And
I read a report this morning from one of the cardinals who was like, well, none of
us really know each other, so it's probably going to be a pretty long conclave
to elect the next pope. They're normally two to three weeks, but this one's probably going
to be quite a bit longer. So I have no idea. I'm just on
(05:16):
pins and needles waiting for the moment that I need to. Yeah.
Immediately write a statement, because I'm not on the Vatican's Rolodex,
and nor should I be. I'm not that important.
>> Zach (05:25):
I've. I have two funny notes to add into this.
>> Katie (05:28):
I'm ready.
Let's hear it.
>> Zach (05:30):
First one kind of funny. His last big meeting was with
J.D. vance.
>> Katie (05:34):
Yeah.
>> Zach (05:35):
Look around. Like, oops, what did I do?
>> Katie (05:37):
I have a running theory that J.D. vance flew back
to the White House with a soul orb in his briefcase
that the Pope was, like, banging on the inside of, trying to get
out m. Because he was like, I'm praying for your health,
Pope Francis. And my immediate question was, for or against?
I guess we know the answer now. Um, so,
yeah, J.D. vance got the soul cube. Um,
(05:58):
not who I had my money on. Um,
so what. What was your other
anecdote?
>> Zach (06:08):
The level of marketing
done.
>> Katie (06:11):
Yeah.
>> Zach (06:12):
For the movie Conclave Now.
>> Katie (06:14):
Yeah.
>> Zach (06:15):
Like, they timed that.
>> Katie (06:16):
I was about to say. I think they really waited till he
was, like, as old as you could possibly get, and then was like, hey, we
got a movie you guys might want to watch.
>> Zach (06:25):
They're like pneumonia. Put this, put that.
>> Katie (06:27):
Yeah. The moment Pope Francis coughed, they were like, do we
have the movie for you? Which I've heard has
been very good. Like, I've read Catholic media reviews, and I've read
secular media reviews, and they've all said that it was a really good movie.
I mean, no joke. I think it won an Oscar. So, yeah,
I'm definitely gonna check it out, especially because it's super.
I think I'll check it out after we get a new Pope. Because, like, right now
(06:48):
I'm like, so anxious, I don't even want to consume media related to
anything like that.
So, yeah, also horrible week for.
Not weak, but horrible year for it to happen. Not that there's
ever a good year for the Pope to die, but. And I
realized that, like, not a lot of non Catholics know about this because this has
been my whole world for like a long time
now. But this year in particular was a
(07:10):
jubilee year, which only happens every
25 years.
>> Zach (07:13):
What's a jubilee?
>> Katie (07:15):
So a jubilee year is like, every 25
years, there's a big celebration in the church. They like, come up with a
theme, they open the jubilee doors in Rome. Like,
it's a huge event. Like, the Pope opens them. Um, and then
like, whatever the theme is for that year, Catholics all
across the world, like, participate in the theme. So
this year it's Pilgrims of Hope. And so a lot of people
(07:35):
were taking pilgrimages to Rome. I actually knew a group that was in
Rome this past week while the Pope's funeral and
everything was going on. They got there like their plane
landed and then they were given the announcement that the Pope had died to let
you know, like, how the timing went for them.
But so, yeah, so, so
my next question would have been, okay, are the rest of the flights discounted
(07:56):
if, like, half of what we came here for is no longer
valid? Um, but who knows? Maybe
they would have charged it more because that's like a rare event. I don't know.
But it's like, it was a huge year for
celebrating. Um, still is, obviously. I
mean, now it's just got a little bit of a hiccup in it. Um,
but there were also a bunch of other, like, environmental
(08:16):
specific celebrations going on. So it was like the 10th
anniversary of the. I keep saying was. It
still is. Even in spite of the pro being dead, we're still
celebrating things. It's just a stranger
lens through which we're celebrating. I know I'm in
more like it's. No, no more jubilee year. Jubilee. You're
canceled. Um, yeah, no, it's all canceled. No church
till 2026. But, um, yeah, so we
(08:38):
were like, also celebrating the 10 year anniversary of his
encyclical about caring for creation.
It's the 800th anniversary of St. Francis's
who's like, the big environmental site is a
canticle of creation. So I mean, it was just like,
if there, there could not have been a worse year for
a Pope to die. No disrespect, Papa
Frank. But, uh, yeah, no, because now,
(09:01):
like, all of the language around these things are having to be
like. I'll put it like this. After getting some
statements out after the Pope's death a week ago
today, I was like, okay, now I get to rewrite everything
I've written for the last five
months to account for.
Hi. We can't celebrate that much. The Pope is dead. So,
yeah, pray for all your friends who are not only Catholic, but who are
(09:24):
Catholic media, because, uh, we're going to join Pope
Francis here soon if this, if this stuff doesn't stop all
that to go down the convoluted rabbit hole of the carbon
price.
All right, now that our 3 to 5 minute
banter has gone about 10 minutes long, let me tell
you all about the carbon price. So Zach's
facts have been packed full of Canadian
(09:44):
carbon pricing stats. And I'm sure you're ready to hear, to smell a little
bit of capitalistic democratic freedom
again. So, yeah, uh, yeah, a little bit of
American exceptionalism. Can you, can you hear,
can you see the flag waving behind me in your head? So
let's talk about the American carbon price. So I was the first
introduced to the American carbon price through a little
(10:04):
old organization that we've mentioned just a couple times on this
show called Citizens Climate Lobby. And, um, for the
longest, Citizens Climate Lobby has been known as the carbon
price people, also known as the carbon fee and dividend
people. So while I think Zach and I have
been surrounded by this language and these people and
these actors, and we're familiar with it and have been for
years, I realize that a lot of this might
(10:27):
sound like Greek to a lot of y'all. So I'm
going to attempt to deconstruct this big
picture model and kind of paint an image of what a
carbon price, an American carbon price, at least is, uh, compared
to its Canadian counterpart and some of the other
mechanisms that take place within the American carbon pricing,
I guess, picturesque frame. So this is a
(10:47):
carbon fee and dividend model designed to address
climate change by encouraging businesses to reduce their carbon
emissions, notably by issuing them a fine or
a fee for a certain amount of carbon pollution.
So the idea is to impose a price on carbon
emissions, which incentivizes companies and
individuals to switch to cleaner, more sustainable practices
(11:08):
and technologies. Um, and it's, it's more effective
than a carbon cap and trade system, which just kind of lets you,
like, buy and sell your pollution. I mean,
I'm not a big fan of cap and trade. And we could have a Whole
episode just on that. I think we have in the past on some of the
drawbacks of the cap and trade system. The American
carbon price is structured and designed to avoid
some of those loopholes that are provided in the cap and
(11:30):
trade system. So let's talk a little bit more about the carbon fee
and dividend model, AKA that American carbon
price. So I'll be
talking primarily about the model that's been proposed by
CCL because quite frankly, it's gotten the most,
I think, legislative push behind it. They've been
going at that, at this for 15 years. As I
(11:50):
said, they're the carbon pricing people. If you're working on a
carbon price or a carbon fee and dividend, you're calling CCL
to talk about it. Uh, so a lot of what I talk about is
going to largely be taken by a lot of the narrative that CCL has
set because they are the carbon pricing people. So
their carbon price in particular, which is the most
popularly, as far as I'm concerned, as
far as I know of, uh, most popularly accepted
(12:13):
variant of the American carbon pricing model
revolves around the concept of a carbon fee
that is placed on fossil fuels. So namely
based on the amount of carbon dioxide CO2 emissions
that a company or an organization produces. So here
are some of the key components of that carbon fee and dividend
model. So there's the carbon fee. So a fee would
(12:33):
be levied on fossil fuels based on the
CO2 emissions they produce when burned. So this
fee starts at a fixed price per ton of
CO2 emissions and increases
annually. So companies and organizations have the
opportunity to pay the fee and to stop polluting or they're just
going to get charged more and more and more every single
year. So the idea is that the fee will
(12:56):
rise gradually over time to provide
businesses and consumers with the incentives and with
a respectable amount of time, a feasible amount of time
to switch to cleaner alternatives. So the fee is
applied at the point of entry, which could be at the
wellhead, the port of entry, uh, or other
similar places where, where fossil fuels officially enter the
economy. So that's one part of this carbon fee and
(13:18):
dividend model that is known as the carbon price. Another
component is the carbon dividend portion
portion. So the money raised from the
carbon fee levied against polluting companies
would then be returned to American households in the form
of a dividend. So this means that the
revenue generated from the carbon fee would be distributed
evenly to all legal US residents
(13:41):
as a rebate or a check, with priority
given to lower and middle income class American
families. So the, the intention is that the dividend would help
offset any higher costs that
consumers might face as businesses pass on the price of
carbon fee to their customers.
As you know, the price of things changes to
accommodate for this carbon fee and dividend. It is a way to
(14:04):
sure that ensure that the policy is
progressive and that it is not regressive. Thank
you, Zach. Uh, Zach, see you. You know, numbers
and words. So what do I even do for a living?
>> Zach (14:15):
Yeah, so like when. So the richer people will be flying
more, spending more on high influence goods or high
carbon intensity goods and they'll pay more
into it, but it'll be. The dividend will be
received equally so that people who are
using less still get. They get more
than they put in.
>> Katie (14:33):
Absolutely.
>> Zach (14:34):
People who have lower incomes will get more.
>> Katie (14:36):
Bingo. Which is something that we had talked about a little bit, I think,
rubbing Canadians the wrong way in the way that the uh, Canadian
carbon price was enacted and that where the American
carbon price is set up so that immediately the moment
that the product enters the market, it is set up in a way
so that it will ultimately benefit low income
and middle class families. Whereas with the Canadian
(14:57):
carbon price you had a lot of people immediately feeling the pain
at the pump and then not feeling like the price that
they got on the rebate justified just how much
they were having to pay more frequently at the pump. Which I think in
some cases might very well be the case. We talked a little bit about that
in that episode. So definitely go, go check out
Zach's Canadian carbon pricing episode for a little bit of a refresher. Sorry
(15:18):
to cut you off, Zach.
>> Zach (15:19):
Yeah, I think we said that they were going to be paying an extra like 38
cents per gallon, which is
pretty mhm. Hefty if you people here would go.
>> Katie (15:27):
Absolutely insane if you said that today.
So yeah, and for us to be like one of the crazier
countries and for Canada to be like one of the
less crazy countries, if they reacted the way that they did,
you can probably imagine how that would go over here and that it
wouldn't. So yeah, excellent point, Zach. So the
primary goal of this carbon, the
American carbon pricing model is to encourage businesses
(15:49):
and individuals to reduce carbon emissions by
making fossil fuels more expensive, but and by
incentivizing cleaner energy sources, which means that over
time m the increasing price on carbon should
lead to a significant reduction in the emissions and
drive innovation in the renewable energy
technologies.
So obviously there's a second component of this
(16:10):
that we haven't talked about a lot recently. But we have
talked a lot about it in the past, and it's worth a
refresher. And that's the carbon border adjustment
mechanism, also called a cbam.
Uh, you've probably heard C bands come up a lot
lately in recent news. Zach, you and I were just talking here a few
minutes ago about. I believe it was Senator Lindsey
Graham and. Oh, please help me. I think he's from
(16:32):
Louisiana.
>> Zach (16:33):
Yes, from Louisiana, yes, yes.
>> Katie (16:35):
Uh, and both of them are working on some legislation related to that
right now. Did you have a little more information on that? I didn't get a chance to
dive too deeply into that here.
>> Zach (16:44):
I mean, they're still trying to get the
verbiage built out. It's still in
committee, I believe, so it's not coming
out yet. EU does have. They have their own,
uh, carbon border adjustment mechanism that they are implementing
now. Not sure when it's gonna be fully implemented, but we
have to be aware that we're gonna have to be paying a carbon
adjustment for imports into or
(17:06):
exports into Europe.
So this is a policy that's
being implemented in other countries. And I think it's a policy that could
be really effective for. We know
Trump's favorite word is tariff, so.
>> Katie (17:19):
Huh.
>> Zach (17:20):
I think it could be an effective way to levy a tariff
with a goal and a point.
Because a lot of Trump's tariffs feel very,
um. I don't know, they feel very off the cuff,
not calculated to meet.
>> Katie (17:34):
Countries are confused with not. Not. Not number oriented
at all, it seems like.
>> Zach (17:38):
Yeah. So this would give countries be like, we are
putting this tariff on you for this reason because you are polluting
this much more than we do. And this would give that country
incentive to pollute less. It would also
protect American companies by adding this
additional pollution fee to cover all the
pollution that China has. Vietnam, that don't
(17:58):
have the same environmental requirements that the US does in protecting
our environment. So it'll sort of. It'll level
out the playing field.
>> Katie (18:06):
Absolutely. And obviously, it would go without
saying that it's exciting any
time that we're talking about this, that two
conservatives, particularly from the south, would
be investigating legislation to make this a
reality. But that's exactly what's going on. And it's even
bigger right now, I think, because it's under a Trump
presidency. So I think that this shows that even when all the
(18:28):
odds would be stacked against environmentalists and
conservatives, lo and behold, the common sense
appears to be prevailing. Knock, uh, on wood for that. But
clearly, that indicates, I think, that this
is a way of
Tackling an environmental issue in a way that's so
economically feasible that you've got the party that
touts economic feasibility investigating it. Uh, so
(18:50):
there's clearly something of meat and substance here,
particularly when it comes to protecting ourselves in our
market against the EU and even countries like
Russia and China, which is one of the biggest compelling arguments for a
carbon border adjustment mechanism. But we'll get more into that here in a
minute.
So let's talk a little bit more about a carbon border adjustment mechanism in
general. So a CBAM is the idea. It's an
idea, pardon me, that would complement the carbon price. It
(19:13):
specifically addresses international trade
concerns. So essentially, a CBAM aims to
prevent what is known as carbon leakage, where
businesses move production to countries with less stringent
carbon regulations. So a CBM
ensures that imports into the US are subject
to the same carbon pricing mechanisms as domestic goods.
So this helps to level the playing field. Exactly as you
(19:35):
said, Zach, um, between US manufacturers who
face the carbon fee and foreign competitors who may
not have to pay such a price for their emissions. So
the way that it works is that a carbon tariff,
that fabulous little T word you just mentioned, Zach,
or adjustment, is imposed on imported
goods based on their carbon content. So that means that
(19:56):
products like steel, cement,
other industrial goods that are super carbon intensive
in their manufacturing will have their emissions priced
accordingly. So that tariff will be
calculated based on the carbon emissions associated with the
production of that good in the country of
origin. And if the country of origin doesn't have an
equivalent carbon pricing system or less stringent
(20:18):
regulations, then the tariff would be higher in order
to compensate for this disparity. So
one of the key objectives of a CBAM
is to encourage other countries to adopt similar
carbon pricing policies in order to reduce the risk
of carbon leakage. And it also aims to
push global trade towards more sustainable
(20:38):
practices. So obviously, the CBAM would need
to comply with international trade rules,
particularly regulations based on, set, uh,
up by the World Trade Organization. So obviously a
CBAM right out of the gate has to be set up in a way that,
that's fair and transparent to all players
involved. So we've talked a lot about the economics of
it. Let's talk, um, just, uh, a fraction about the
(21:00):
environmental impact. You're probably picking up a lot of what we're putting down
reading in between the lines here anyway. So the goal of
the CBAM is to help reduce global
carbon emissions by ensuring that international
trade doesn't undermine domestic climate
policies. It seals that loophole. That's, again,
very apparent. In a lot of cap and trade systems where it's okay,
well then I'll just buy it either through a third party in
(21:23):
another country or I'll just have all my stuff done there. So
it, it actively seeks to combat that from the jump.
If it works, a CBAM can encourage other countries
to adopt stronger climate policies or face economic
penalties. So obviously there's been a lot of talk about
CBAMs in recent years, particularly
following the beginning of the war in
(21:43):
Ukraine, the Russian Ukraine war. No telling
what they're going to call that in the history books. No telling.
>> Zach (21:48):
No, but I think jokes to myself.
>> Katie (21:50):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, don't get us canceled
any more than we already are eligible to be canceled just
by nature of existing. But I think that that's when a lot of people
started to investigate the feasibility of a CBAM as
well as a carbon price in general. Because a lot of people realize, hmm hm.
When you put your energy control in the hands
of a dictator, you're at the mercy of a crazy
(22:10):
dictator who can overnight completely change
your fuel supply and pricing and
storage and everything. So I know that us here in the US
we began to look more closely at that. I began hearing
more frequently about CBAMs following Russia's invasion of
Ukraine as more of a national
defense mechanism when it comes to economic policy and
(22:30):
trade. Zach, what are your thoughts on that? Have you
personally noticed an uptick since the Russia Ukraine
war of folks Talking more about CBAMs and carbon
pricing a little more seriously?
>> Zach (22:41):
It seems like it's gained some traction I think, especially with the
EU implementing theirs, that we're gonna have to get
more serious about our carbon emissions and how
they're being traded around the world. I think it, I think
it really could be useful as a way for, to
form more of a natural national security blanket around the
US and sort of give
(23:01):
a reason to home to bring manufacturing
back home. And it'll give a more stable,
predictable uh, tariff that won't be
because right now we have the very unpredictable
90 days. Maybe it's on, maybe it's off again.
>> Katie (23:14):
Right. Or just overnight depending on what
the yeah country on the receiving end
says.
>> Zach (23:21):
So, so companies aren't going to build
a fifty hundred million dollar
production facility when they don't, when they think the
rules might change in a week or two and they might be able to go back to their
Mexico facility, Vietnamese facility. So
something that's a little more consistent and uh,
planned forward so that companies know how to project their
profits, project their costs and can build out.
(23:43):
But I think it's really important. I think we always harp on this as
the national security of reducing our reliance
on foreign oil and foreign leaders.
And just every time, the first, first
thing Trump does when he gets elected is give. Makes a call to, like, Saudi
Arabia,
Muhammad Bin Salam, and
he's not a great guy. We don't want to be reliant on them.
(24:06):
Saudi Arabia is moving more into the influence of
China. We need to produce some separation
from them and not be reliant on them. We did under the Biden
administration. We did become, like, the largest
exporter of oil. So we
are net, net, uh,
exporter of fossil fuels right now.
And in my opinion, every,
(24:28):
every gallon or barrel less that we don't use is something that
we can export and make more money off of. So I just view
it as a competitive standpoint of
reducing your resource consumption and exporting
for profit.
>> Katie (24:41):
Don't get high off your own supplies access. Sell it for
a profit instead.
>> Zach (24:45):
Exactly.
>> Katie (24:47):
Well done, kingpin. All right. But, yeah, no, I
completely agree with you. I think that once we realize that there's money to be
made there by consuming less, um, um,
you're right. We'd be making money hand over fist. It's just waking people
up to the reality that that can be achieved without
relying on dictators and terrorists and dictator, um, and
terrorist allies for our most prized
resources and energy.
>> Zach (25:08):
And if we. And another point of the unpredictability of the
tariffs is it is sort of biting us in
our own. But because now China
is canceling all contracts with Boeing, they're canceling all
natural gas imports from the US and they had, they were
one of our major export, one of the countries we export a lot
to. So it's sort of we need to
(25:29):
plan forward and be clear and
communicate what we want. And the
confusion that Trump's sort of intermixed into his
trade policy is causing a lot of
uncertainty, which is not great for my stock portfolio.
>> Katie (25:43):
Somebody let Trump know that we can't export to
ourselves. Um, I think that once he
figures that out, I don't know where he's planning on getting
all this stuff, but, uh, we, we can't send it to
ourselves.
So let's talk a little bit more about the relationship
between a carbon price and CBAMs, and
then I'll talk a little bit more about, um, some of the global
(26:05):
and domestic economic and political considerations
to bringing a carbon price on a CBAM
to life. So firstly, the CBAM and the
carbon border adjustment fee, or the carbon fee and dividend
together the carbon fee and dividend approach and the carbon border
adjustment aim to reduce domestic emissions
and ensure that the US Is not at a competitive
(26:25):
disadvantage when it comes to participating in global
markets because they've got a strong climate
policy. So this is where I know we talk a lot on the
show about conservatives needing to embrace the balance
between economics and conservation. And
this is a key example of that. The carbon fee itself
creates a strong economic and incentive for
(26:45):
US businesses and consumers to reduce their carbon
emissions, while the CBAM addresses the global
aspect by ensuring that imports are held to
similar standards, which prevents industries from
relocating to countries that have weaker
environmental regulations. So the carbon fee and
dividend approach has gained a significant amount of
support among moderate Democrats and some Republicans, especially
(27:07):
due to the dividend aspect, which appeals to those
concerned about the economic impact on
consumers. It is seen as a way to address climate
change while mitigating potential economic hardship for low
and middle income families. But some of the pushback
that I've seen related to this is that it doesn't end.
Obviously you'll know what our opinion is on this show. A lot of folks
say that it doesn't go far enough and that it only
(27:30):
respects. Well, maybe I shouldn't say respects. It only gives
a like dividend
back to American citizen families. So
undocumented folks are pretty much left out of the
equation. And a lot of indigenous indigenous communities have not
been interacted with for discussing the
intricacies of what a carbon fee and dividend
returned to indigenous communities might look like. So a lot of
(27:52):
indigenous communities are largely left out of it as well. So
um, that's a lot of the critique that comes from Democrats that are
a little bit further left. If you might be wondering why aren't
Democrats supporting an environmental policy, well, that would be
why they don't feel that it goes far enough. Another thing to consider
is that in the case of the American carbon price, there have
been a lot of exceptions made. And I don't have the full
(28:12):
list in front of me, but I know that it's military
transportation. So like trucking,
agriculture, um,
I think I said transportation. So like aircraft flights, I
think was, was one of the ones included. But there are several sectors
that have been exempt from
falling within the jurisdiction of a carbon fee and
dividend as a way to appeal to the widest audience
(28:33):
available while also not too
grossly causing economic upset in a direction and
in sectors that aren't the primary
intention of the carbon price. So that's something to keep
in mind.
>> Zach (28:45):
Always got to make sure you have something in there to protect farmers because they already.
>> Katie (28:48):
Exactly. Oh, yeah, oh yeah, right.
>> Zach (28:50):
Center up and down.
>> Katie (28:51):
Yeah. And I think that that's something that is very
unique, I think, to the U.S. obviously there's
farmers everywhere and there's going to be farmers in Europe as
well. But when you look at the numbers of just how
few farmers there are here in the US and just how many people they
have to feed. Yeah, I agree with you completely, Zach.
Farmers needed all the legs up that they can get. And, uh,
so the CBAM and carbon price folks are pretty smart when it came to
(29:14):
crafting legislation to make sure that they weren't dinging these
folks once again. And I think a lot of that also
created a lot of buy in from folks on the right whose immediate
protests were going to be military and
agriculture. So. Excellent.
>> Zach (29:26):
Maybe Bill Cassidy foresight. Maybe Bill Cassidy, Lindsey
Graham learned some lessons watching, uh, the farmers in Europe and how they
protest.
>> Katie (29:32):
Actually, like, like, I know we joke.
>> Zach (29:34):
We don't want to piss them off.
>> Katie (29:36):
Yeah, I think that's legitimately, I think they realize, yeah, we
don't want to piss off the folks that have like 3 tons of
manure at their disposal at any given time. We operate
out of buildings that are primarily white. Maybe we, maybe
we should invite that upon themselves. A good idea.
Let's talk a little bit about the international component of
bringing this to life as well. So the CBAM
(29:56):
becomes a little more contentious when there's more players
involved, which means it gets a little more contentious when it's on the
international stage. So it might incentivize some countries
to implement their own carbon pricing systems. But I
also lead to trade tensions, particularly with nations
that have a less robust climate policy. So the
US would need to engage diplomatically to ensure that the
(30:16):
mechanism doesn't violate trade agreements and is perceived as
fair globally. I know that, uh, some of the countries that are
always brought up anytime that I lobby
conservative offices in support of a carbon price
are always, well, what does this do about China, India and Russia? Those
are always the three that are mentioned. Well, it's
a carbon border adjustment mechanism.
They will have to face some of the same fines and
(30:38):
penalties that everybody else does. That's how the fee
works. So it's always interesting to hear them
talk about it or about these countries
first. When we can't control what these countries do on their
own time for themselves, we do have
a say in how they interact with us, uh, which is where the
CBAM comes in. So obviously it's meant to create a more
level playing field again. And another thing
(31:01):
to consider here is that I think it also gives us protection
against countries that might not be completely
honest with us. My immediate first thought is
China. Obviously, I think a lot of people realize
just how bad China fudges the numbers on, like
everything during the COVID
pandemic, because the numbers that China was
reporting were nowhere near the numbers that everybody else
(31:23):
had. So you don't exactly want to play fair
with somebody who's just making the numbers up every single day.
China might say that they've got the best climate possible, see, in the whole
wide world, and maybe they've got one that's better than ours. But
I'm not going to believe China's numbers on how China's performing on
the environment, because I can't believe China's numbers on how China's performing
on anything. So this carbon border
(31:43):
adjustment mechanism would have some hard and fast
rules in place to prevent a lot of that loosey
goosey, uh, I just made it up. That's my source from happening
from a lot of other countries. So that's something to keep in mind
as well. And when it comes to the World
Trade Organization, obviously, as mentioned earlier, the CBAM
would have to be within WTO compliance. And in
order to comply with those rules, the CBM
(32:06):
would need to ensure that it doesn't discriminate against
specific countries, but instead imposes tariffs
on all imports according to their carbon emissions without
unduly harming developing economies that might not have
the resources to even implement a similar carbon
pricing system for themselves. So obviously it would
have to make sure that it does not disparage any
(32:26):
country that is more likely to face the negative repercussions of
climate change than it is to exacerbate the effects
of climate change.
So the American Carbon Price and its sister
carbon border adjustment mechanism are both designed to
tackle climate change by pricing carbon emissions
and incentivizing, uh, sustainable practices, while
(32:48):
also addressing the risk of carbon leakage in international
trade. So this has got a nice balance of
domestic policy, international trade
agreements, and they all represent a robust
approach to reducing emissions and fostering global
cooperation on climate action. So the key
to its success is going to lie in careful
implementation, uh, obviously bipartisan
(33:10):
support. We saw what happens, um, back
in, what,
2022, when you have
one party and one party alone pass climate
legislation, the other party will harp on it for the rest of their
lives. So obviously this is going to need to be
bipartisan. So I'm really encouraged to see that
conservatives are leading the talks on this because they're the ones that I would expect
(33:30):
to be a little bit hesitant. So hopefully enough moderate
Democrats will come to the table for this to be considered
bipartisan legislation in the near future. So we'll just have to
see what happens from there. We'll keep you updated here.
Hopefully, as we hope, uh, good things work out
with Senator Graham and Senator
Cassidy as they do their own investigation on
carbon pricing and carbon border adjustment mechanisms. Yeah.
>> Zach (33:53):
And hopefully. So for some action steps, hopefully we can get
people out and telling their senators and congressmen that they want this
and that they're interested in what these people are doing.
>> Katie (34:01):
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Zach, excellent segue.
I know. Always on the show, for action steps, we're telling people,
call your member of Congress. Oh, my God. Do it now. Call your member
of Congress. Let them know that you support a
carbon price and a carbon border adjustment mechanism. As
a young conservative environmentalist, those would be the key words.
That's like saying you're a unicorn. The moment you say those
(34:22):
words, everybody in the office is listening to what you're saying because
they can't believe they've got a unicorn on the phone. So
call your member of Congress and let them know that as a young
conservative, you are concerned about the environment
and you are in support of a carbon price and a
carbon border adjustment mechanism. And hopefully you know a little bit
more about the Canadian carbon price from
Zach's episode that you. So that if they bring that up, you can tell them, uh, ah,
(34:44):
not really. Ours is better because it's American.
So seriously, though, do a little bit of research on the American
carbon price, a little bit of research on what Senators
Graham and Cassidy are proposing. Um, and see how
you feel about that. See what your thoughts are and be sure that your member of
Congress knows it. They make seven figures a year. Make them earn
it.
>> Zach (35:04):
Yep. Get out. Go out and get them.
>> Katie (35:06):
Yeah. Pester your member of Congress. Do it. They
can't stop you. It's their job. They can't hang
up on you, by the way. Now, that's not incentive to, like, leave
them on the phone for three hours that they cannot hang up
on you. So if you call your member of Congress's office, be real
nice, but keep in mind you hold
the floor.
For you, our listener. Email us with your thoughts.
(35:29):
Our email is info greentea
partyradio.
>> Zach (35:34):
Thank you for listening to Green Tea Party Radio. And a very special
thank you to all of our patrons. We couldn't just do this
without you.
If you're interested in getting early access to episodes, well as Green Tea
Party Radio merch, check us out @greent party
radio.com via feedback. Tell us what's your mind
on. Follow us on Facebook, Instagram X and
TikTok.
>> Katie (35:53):
And just so you know, this is our passion project.
We don't have any organizational sponsor. And just a
reminder that Green Tea Party Radio is not representative
of the Diocese of Little Rock, uh, Catholic Climate Covenant, or
any of our employers. We are just building a
movement because we want the world to know that conservatives, particularly
young ones like us, have important things to. To say about
(36:13):
climate change.
>> Zach (36:14):
If you want to hear us on your radio station, your college
radio station, email us at info greent party
radio.com and give us a feed. Give us a detail about your campus
and your radio station. That email again is info
greent party radio.com.
thanks for listening.
>> Katie (36:30):
Thank you for listening.
We did it.
>> Zach (36:36):
Yeah.
>> Katie (36:37):
Good episode. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah.
>> Zach (36:39):
Just go, C Bam.
>> Katie (36:41):
Yeah. Let's go, C Bam. I'm team C Bam.
Yeah. Let's get my mascot, the cbam, in the room, and
it's like a killer whale.
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