Ben Habib: Advance UK: Fighting for Britain's Cultural and Political Revival

Episode Transcript
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Hearts of Oak: And hello, Hearts of Oak. Thanks so much for joining us once again. (00:21):
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Hearts of Oak: And we've got Ben Habib back with us for, I think it's the third time now, (00:25):
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Hearts of Oak: with so much happening in the UK. Ben, thank you so much for giving us your time. (00:29):
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Ben Habib: Not at all. Thank you for having me on, Peter. Always a pleasure to speak to you. Great to have you. (00:34):
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Hearts of Oak: And of course, follow at benhabib6 and also Advance UK and also the Great British Pact. (00:39):
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Hearts of Oak: The links are there in front of you and also down in the description. (00:47):
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Hearts of Oak: Make sure and following all that is happening. And there's a lot happening in (00:50):
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Hearts of Oak: UK politics in the last few days. (00:55):
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Hearts of Oak: But I want to start with what Ben has been involved in. And it was just the end of June. (00:57):
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Hearts of Oak: I mean, I can't believe it's only been two and a half weeks since Advanced UK has been out in the wild. (01:08):
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Hearts of Oak: What's the update on the response you've got, the support? (01:13):
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Hearts of Oak: Tell us a little bit about what the last two and a half weeks have been like. (01:18):
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Ben Habib: Well, you would expect me to say what I'm about to say. (01:21):
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Ben Habib: But what I'm about to say is the unvarnished truth. It's been a remarkable launch. (01:24):
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Ben Habib: We've now got over 12 and a half thousand supporters within two weeks we've raised (01:31):
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Ben Habib: 126 000 pounds um which (01:38):
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Ben Habib: is you know uh which is consistent at 10 pounds ahead roughly with the number (01:42):
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Ben Habib: of supporters we've got the number of members is actually slightly lower but (01:46):
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Ben Habib: you know remarkable a remarkable start to the life of the party um i think that (01:49):
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Ben Habib: puts us now at seventh or something in terms of membership size in the United Kingdom. (01:55):
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Ben Habib: And as you might know, Peter, I set a target of 30,000 members before we actually (02:01):
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Ben Habib: apply to the Electoral Commission for full party status. (02:07):
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Ben Habib: And the reason I did that was because, I mean, I feel there's a need for a party, (02:11):
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Ben Habib: and I believe there is demand by the British people for a party such as ours. (02:17):
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Ben Habib: But I wanted to empirically test it before actually becoming a political party. (02:23):
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Ben Habib: And I have to say, I'm very, very encouraged in the responses we've had. (02:28):
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Ben Habib: And I suspect that we will be going for full party political status because, (02:33):
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Ben Habib: you know, at this rate, we will be at our target by the end of August. (02:39):
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Ben Habib: It might take a bit longer than that because there's a flurry of activity, (02:43):
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Ben Habib: obviously, at the start. But, you know, I think we'll get there. (02:46):
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Hearts of Oak: Now, you say that you want to test public opinion before you launch. (02:49):
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Hearts of Oak: There are, what, 300-odd political parties in the UK. (02:54):
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Hearts of Oak: The viewers, the listeners, will not know 99% of them, probably, (02:59):
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Hearts of Oak: or 98% of them. But there are a lot of them available. (03:03):
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Hearts of Oak: Why not do it the other way? Because I was thinking you maybe would work in (03:07):
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Hearts of Oak: the background, you would work closely with the Electoral Commission, (03:12):
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Hearts of Oak: get something registered, and then, bam, release it. but you've gone the other way. (03:15):
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Hearts of Oak: Why not have done that in the background and then present a ready-made party (03:21):
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Hearts of Oak: that if there was election tomorrow, that actually that would be on the ballot paper? (03:25):
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Ben Habib: So it's not so easy to do it the other way around for two main reasons. (03:29):
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Ben Habib: The first is that the minute you apply to the Electoral Commission for a new (03:36):
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Ben Habib: party, it's public. So everyone knows you're doing it. (03:40):
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Ben Habib: And then, of course, if you fail to succeed, you don't look so clever. (03:43):
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Ben Habib: And what I'm very keen to do is only really do this if the British people say (03:47):
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Ben Habib: and confirm that they wish me to do it. (03:53):
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Ben Habib: And 30,000 is an important figure because it's the number of members that reform (03:56):
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Ben Habib: had at the beginning of the 2024 general election. (04:02):
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Ben Habib: So I know that with 30,000 members, you've actually got the makings of the kind (04:05):
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Ben Habib: of army you need nationally in order to get into people's psyche. (04:10):
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Ben Habib: You know, that's critical. So it's not the figure that's been pulled out from (04:16):
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Ben Habib: the air. I think it's an important figure. (04:20):
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Ben Habib: And then the other reason I didn't do it, and Peter, this will surprise you, (04:23):
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Ben Habib: or maybe it won't surprise you, it surprised me. (04:27):
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Ben Habib: As I was going through the quiet consultations that I had with various people (04:29):
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Ben Habib: on our side of the debate, getting the party ready. (04:36):
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Ben Habib: I was stunned by how many people agree with me that the country is facing real (04:40):
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Ben Habib: threats of an existential nature. (04:47):
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Ben Habib: They agree with me that Reform UK is anything but the answer. (04:50):
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Ben Habib: They agree that the Conservative Party is not reforming. (04:55):
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Ben Habib: And yet, very few people are prepared people in our in the public domain the (04:59):
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Ben Habib: commentariat those who you know are saying the kinds of things that you and (05:05):
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Ben Habib: i say all the time very few of them were prepared to say i'm in (05:09):
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Ben Habib: and there is a fear amongst even those who recognize that the country is in (05:14):
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Ben Habib: dire straits to commit to anything and so the other reason i've done it this way is to say is to (05:19):
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Ben Habib: away their fear prove to them that there's demand in the nation for this um (05:27):
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Ben Habib: and then once i've proven that then i think then those people who are a bit more timid um you know (05:33):
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Ben Habib: Would would consider joining as well i mean (05:41):
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Ben Habib: it would have been much better um of course it (05:44):
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Ben Habib: would have been much better to be able to say at day one (05:47):
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Ben Habib: i've got x y and z defecting from so (05:50):
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Ben Habib: and so from reform i've got x y and z from the (05:53):
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Ben Habib: right-hand side as ostensible right-hand side of the conservative party (05:56):
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Ben Habib: defecting i've got um uh three million (05:59):
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Ben Habib: quid pledged and here's my new political party and ah um but you know it doesn't (06:02):
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Ben Habib: happen that way and a lot of people want i think they want also to see they (06:10):
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Ben Habib: want to see that you can do it has ben had he got the guts really to do this or is he just chat? (06:14):
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Ben Habib: And I thought, sod it, you know, let's do it. (06:21):
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Ben Habib: Let's prove to people that it works. Let's go on this journey together. (06:24):
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Ben Habib: Let's get to 30,000 members. (06:28):
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Ben Habib: And then when we're there, I think that all the jigsaw pieces will be evidently in place. (06:30):
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Ben Habib: And even the most timid people who are on our side of the debate will sign up. (06:35):
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Ben Habib: Anyway, that's the plan. (06:40):
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Hearts of Oak: Well, those are, Tim, I get they need to go somewhere if they want to be engaged. (06:41):
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Hearts of Oak: And we've seen where reform have gone. (06:46):
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Hearts of Oak: Explain, maybe you can't explain Nigel's psyche, (06:52):
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Hearts of Oak: what's going on in his head, but why on earth he is talking about placing reform (06:55):
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Hearts of Oak: to the left of the Conservative Party when all you have to do with reform is (07:00):
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Hearts of Oak: make it a little bit more conservative than the Conservative Party and you gather all those votes. (07:07):
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Hearts of Oak: And yet he's going for the centre ground instead of actually going for a conviction position. (07:12):
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Hearts of Oak: What on earth is happening there? (07:18):
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Ben Habib: I've got absolutely no idea what's going on in reform. (07:20):
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Ben Habib: I knew Nigel was a bit of a circus show. I've always known that. (07:25):
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Ben Habib: I've had my severe doubts about Nigel. But I would never have predicted that (07:30):
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Ben Habib: on one day he would take on Jake Berry, who is a Remainer, pro-lockdowns, pro-net-zero, (07:36):
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Ben Habib: pro all the things that have done so much damage to the country, (07:45):
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Ben Habib: take them willingly into the bosom of Reform UK, and the next day rejects Suella Braverman. (07:48):
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Ben Habib: He's actually thrown a grenade into the political landscape by doing that. (07:57):
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Ben Habib: And the grenade is as follows. (08:02):
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Ben Habib: He's basically said to Kemi Badenok, look, I'm not interested in the ostensible (08:04):
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Ben Habib: right-hand side of the Conservative Party. (08:10):
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Ben Habib: I'm not going right of you. You can, if you're able, control the right-hand side of politics. (08:12):
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Ben Habib: He's taken all the pressure, therefore, off Kemi, because she knows Farage is (08:19):
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Ben Habib: not going to be targeting her key right-wingers, if you like. (08:25):
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Ben Habib: People like Suella, Jenrick, others, they're not going to reform. (08:30):
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Ben Habib: So Kemi can now travel in confidence that there won't be any splintering on (08:34):
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Ben Habib: that side of a party, which means that the Conservative Party itself will not go to the right. (08:39):
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Ben Habib: It will stay where it is. There's no need to go to the right. (08:44):
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Ben Habib: Are you with me? The right-hand side of British politics has just been completely vacated. (08:48):
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Ben Habib: And by the way, when I say right-hand side, as you know, Peter, (08:53):
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Ben Habib: I don't believe in left and right. I believe that there are those who wish to (08:56):
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Ben Habib: govern by the supranational global order. (08:59):
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Ben Habib: They're all on one side, and that includes, to a significant extent, (09:01):
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Ben Habib: the Conservative Party and increasingly Farage too. (09:04):
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Ben Habib: And then there's those of us who believe in a sovereign, independent, (09:08):
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Ben Habib: self-governing United Kingdom, of which I think there are very few people on (09:12):
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Ben Habib: the political landscape now. (09:17):
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Ben Habib: And Advance UK may be the only, I don't want to sound arrogant in saying this, (09:19):
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Ben Habib: but it may be the only party amongst two or three others which occupy that space. (09:25):
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Ben Habib: He's basically, Farage has just vacated the space which all of us in the country (09:32):
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Ben Habib: thought he naturally occupied it's a remarkable thing (09:38):
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Hearts of Oak: No i want to delve a little bit deeper into that but i want to get back and (09:43):
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Hearts of Oak: ask you more about the the the launch because i'm and i was a new kid five years (09:48):
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Hearts of Oak: national campaign major 2019 so it's not as if i'm coming to politics naively (09:54):
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Hearts of Oak: at all and in no way do i think that everyone is going to hold hands and sing Kumbaya. (09:58):
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Hearts of Oak: That is literally not going to happen. But I think many people were expecting (10:02):
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Hearts of Oak: you to have a big press conference. (10:08):
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Hearts of Oak: You and Rupert and maybe others would be there. It would be a team of people (10:10):
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Hearts of Oak: going forward together. (10:16):
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Hearts of Oak: That hasn't happened on the same day Rupert had launched his own initiative, Restore Britain. (10:18):
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Hearts of Oak: Um what what the the people watching expecting kind of that coming together (10:24):
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Hearts of Oak: how do you respond to that and um is that going to happen um have you fallen out no. (10:31):
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Ben Habib: No no yeah so the story is that when uh (10:39):
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Ben Habib: I've known for a long time that a new party is needed, and we can delve into (10:44):
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Ben Habib: that in greater detail if you like, but I've known for a long time. (10:50):
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Ben Habib: But I didn't think there was really any political room for a new party, (10:52):
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Ben Habib: even though I felt one was needed, until Rupert was thrown out of reform in (10:57):
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Ben Habib: the way that he was thrown out. And I thought that would be revealing for the British people. (11:02):
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Ben Habib: They'd see how awful reform is. (11:07):
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Ben Habib: And one of the best MP that they had, perhaps one of the best MPs in Parliament, (11:10):
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Ben Habib: has been thrown out in the way that he's been thrown out. (11:16):
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Ben Habib: And I immediately, Rupert and I were already in touch, actually, (11:18):
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Ben Habib: because we could sense something was happening. (11:24):
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Ben Habib: But the day that he was thrown out in the way that he was and all those allegations (11:26):
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Ben Habib: were made against him, I called him up and said, right, Rupert, we're doing a new party. (11:30):
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Ben Habib: And he said, yeah, OK, fine. You're right. Let's do it. (11:35):
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Ben Habib: And I think I had misunderstood the gravity of the burden of the allegations made against him. (11:39):
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Ben Habib: I had assumed them to be vexatious and frivolous and not grounded in reality. (11:50):
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Ben Habib: And I had dismissed them in my own mind. And I'd assumed he dismissed them in his mind. (11:57):
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Ben Habib: And of course, they were proven to be completely vexatious and frivolous. (12:02):
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Ben Habib: But no doubt it was weighing on his mind that he had to fight this thing. (12:06):
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Ben Habib: And so my mind had jumped ahead saying, right, OK, what next? (12:10):
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Ben Habib: And I hadn't had, I think, the emotional intelligence to let Rupert come to (12:15):
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Ben Habib: terms with what's required in his own time, having first dealt with the accusations made against him. (12:21):
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Ben Habib: And those accusations effectively were neutered, I think, in about the middle (12:28):
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Ben Habib: of May when the police dropped their investigation into Rupert. (12:32):
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Ben Habib: And it was about then he said to me. (12:37):
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Hearts of Oak: Sorry, the allegations were Rupert was some crazed gunman, in effect. (12:39):
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Ben Habib: I know. (12:44):
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Hearts of Oak: So that's the madness. (12:45):
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Ben Habib: Yeah, it's just absolutely absurd. The 67-year-old respectable member of the (12:47):
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Ben Habib: public who's held public office before is in parliament has had an unblemished record. Anyway. (12:53):
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Ben Habib: And I think it was then that Rupert started thinking, you know, (13:02):
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Ben Habib: do I really want to be part of the new political party? (13:05):
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Ben Habib: And would I because I wanted him to lead it. I've made no secret of that. (13:09):
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Ben Habib: I wanted Rupert to lead it. And that was the plan. (13:13):
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Ben Habib: But then he felt that a cross party political movement was a better way to deliver for the country. (13:16):
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Ben Habib: And I don't agree with him on that. Clearly, I don't agree because I went ahead (13:24):
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Ben Habib: and set up the political party. (13:29):
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Ben Habib: For me, a movement, there are millions of movements in the country, (13:30):
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Ben Habib: and they don't add up to anything in my mind because there's no mechanism by (13:36):
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Ben Habib: which you can deliver the change. (13:40):
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Ben Habib: We're in perhaps a diminished democracy, but it is still a bit of a democracy. (13:42):
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Ben Habib: And the only way to do it is through the ballot box. And so you've got to have (13:48):
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Ben Habib: a political presence, a party political presence. (13:51):
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Ben Habib: And so I wanted the political party. And actually, I think the membership that (13:55):
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Ben Habib: we've gathered in two weeks proves that I was, or has begun to prove at least, (13:59):
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Ben Habib: that I was right in my thinking. (14:05):
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Ben Habib: And so Rupert did his movement and I did my political part. I've joined his movement. (14:08):
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Ben Habib: And I wish him all the best of luck and I will support him in every way that (14:13):
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Ben Habib: I can. I just don't think it's going to deliver the results that we need for the country. (14:17):
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Hearts of Oak: Well, as you said, there's so many movements. When I talk to friends in the (14:21):
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Hearts of Oak: US, everyone seems to be starting up an NGO or a charitable organization. (14:27):
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Hearts of Oak: And that's what people do. (14:31):
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Hearts of Oak: And here, the amount of think tanks and movements. (14:33):
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Hearts of Oak: And yet, we are in a more dire situation each passing day, despite the amount (14:36):
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Hearts of Oak: of money that these think tanks have moved. (14:43):
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Hearts of Oak: So I think I echo your thinking on that. (14:45):
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Ben Habib: Yeah, and the other thing I'd just like to say is that Advance UK is unique as a political (14:50):
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Ben Habib: Because we have set up something called a college, which is the main body of (14:57):
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Ben Habib: the political philosophy of our party. (15:03):
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Ben Habib: We have a political philosophy that's written down, which is nation state, (15:06):
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Ben Habib: freedom of speech, democracy, inequality under the law. (15:09):
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Ben Habib: And you can read our mission statement on our website. (15:12):
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Ben Habib: But I want that mission statement to have guardians, to have people who will (15:14):
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Ben Habib: make the case for it and ensure that the party stays true to that mission. (15:21):
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Ben Habib: And help deliver the results of that mission. (15:26):
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Ben Habib: And so the college is unique, as I say. (15:32):
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Ben Habib: It'll number at full tilt between 50 and 100 people. And it will comprise people (15:36):
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Ben Habib: who are fantastic thinkers and fearless speakers. (15:41):
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Ben Habib: And they will not be on the shilling of the party. They will be completely independent. (15:45):
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Ben Habib: They will not be able to have their opinions influenced by being induced into (15:51):
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Ben Habib: party political positions or into government office. (15:55):
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Ben Habib: They will be separate from the party executives, and they will not be elected (15:58):
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Ben Habib: members of any institution. (16:02):
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Ben Habib: So they will be able to speak their minds without any kind of conflict of interest. (16:04):
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Ben Habib: And their job will be to appoint the leadership, appoint the senior executives, (16:09):
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Ben Habib: and then hold them to account. (16:14):
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Ben Habib: And also help to the extent that they're able in the formulation of policies (16:17):
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Ben Habib: and the appointment of candidates. (16:22):
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Ben Habib: And I think with this body of people, the college, who are themselves appointed, (16:24):
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Ben Habib: you know, by the membership, so that's the democratic process. (16:28):
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Ben Habib: So with this intellectual heft, we will be able, I think, to go with confidence (16:33):
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Ben Habib: into the future that even if we're unable to deliver for the country in the (16:39):
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Ben Habib: first instance, we will over time, hold our ground and deliver. (16:43):
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Ben Habib: We will not be subject to entryism. We will not be subject to weakness because (16:48):
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Ben Habib: we will have this body of people that will keep the party honest. (16:53):
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Hearts of Oak: Of course, one of the issues with reform is that it's the Nigel show or maybe (16:57):
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Hearts of Oak: the Nigel Mohamed Z. Yusuf show. (17:03):
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Hearts of Oak: I think it's the two of them. (17:06):
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Hearts of Oak: And his 48-hour resignation was short-lived. (17:09):
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Hearts of Oak: But how well, yeah, you mentioned the college. So this will be something, (17:14):
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Hearts of Oak: this will be a party, an entity that members can engage in, as opposed to reform, (17:19):
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Hearts of Oak: where it seems to be driven by the top? (17:26):
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Ben Habib: Yeah, so the college will be drawn from the membership. (17:28):
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Ben Habib: In the first few stages of the party, members of the college will be appointed (17:32):
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Ben Habib: by a small number of us who are interviewing people who are put forward by the (17:38):
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Ben Habib: membership and people we know. (17:42):
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Ben Habib: I want to grow the college to 20-odd people at least, you know, (17:44):
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Ben Habib: at day one, and then we get it bigger and bigger from there. (17:48):
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Ben Habib: But the membership appoints the college. (17:53):
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Ben Habib: The college then appoints the leadership. And the college, because it's a smaller (17:56):
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Ben Habib: number of people, works with the leadership to make sure that the leadership (18:00):
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Ben Habib: delivers on its mission statement and that the policies created for the party (18:04):
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Ben Habib: are consistent with the mission statement. (18:08):
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Ben Habib: Are you with me? Does that make sense? Yeah, that makes sense. (18:10):
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Hearts of Oak: Tell us a little bit about finance, because for the US viewers watching this, (18:14):
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Hearts of Oak: they will know that it's because the election cycle in the US is basically every (18:19):
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Hearts of Oak: two years, the politicians are continually raising money. (18:24):
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Hearts of Oak: And so much money goes into the political world in the US. In the UK, we're very different. (18:26):
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Hearts of Oak: And you've traditionally had the trade unions, I guess, funding the Labour Party (18:34):
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Hearts of Oak: on the left. And you've had individual donors funding the Tory party on the right. (18:40):
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Hearts of Oak: And I guess at some point, those funders on the right, because I'm sure you (18:46):
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Hearts of Oak: would like your 10 million cheque from Ilona or someone else. (18:52):
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Hearts of Oak: But we don't have that in the UK. (18:55):
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Hearts of Oak: I'm wondering how long is it until those donors get frustrated at the Conservative (18:57):
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Hearts of Oak: Party not being Conservative and now reform going to the left? (19:03):
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Hearts of Oak: That's going to annoy them. And surely this opens up a gap that Advance UK fill (19:07):
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Hearts of Oak: and you should have the support. (19:14):
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Ben Habib: I mean, you're 100% right. Of course, we're only two and a bit weeks into our life. (19:20):
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Ben Habib: And I think a lot is going to be revealed and tested over the next few months, (19:25):
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Ben Habib: including where donors are. (19:29):
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Ben Habib: But there are essentially three kinds of donors in my experience, (19:31):
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Ben Habib: Peter. There's the kind of donor who likes to donate some money so he can go (19:35):
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Ben Habib: to the cocktail parties and rub shoulders with the great and good of the political scene. (19:39):
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Ben Habib: They're not of much interest to me. Then there's the kind of donor who wishes (19:44):
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Ben Habib: to back a winning horse because he wants to have influence in government. And. (19:50):
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Ben Habib: They're not of much interest to me either. And then there's a third kind of (19:55):
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Ben Habib: donor, a donor who's irritated, angry, frustrated by the inability of the country (19:59):
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Ben Habib: to be governed properly. (20:06):
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Ben Habib: And they're the people I would like donating to Advance UK, people who are already (20:07):
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Ben Habib: politically, philosophically aligned with the party. (20:14):
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Ben Habib: And I think they too will come to us if they can see us succeeding. (20:17):
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Ben Habib: You know, if we can get to our 30,000, if we can start showing, (20:22):
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Ben Habib: you know, some impact in the polling numbers, this is all going to take a few months, isn't it? (20:27):
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Ben Habib: But I think we will attract them. I am aware. (20:31):
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Ben Habib: I am aware that some very deep-pocketed people have joined as members. (20:34):
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Ben Habib: And I'm aware that they're very encouraged by what we stand for and the way (20:38):
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Ben Habib: we're going about our business. (20:43):
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Ben Habib: And I'm hoping that they will be tapping me on the shoulder sometime soon. (20:45):
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Hearts of Oak: How do you think in the uk that we haven't had (20:50):
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Hearts of Oak: a a we've had reform where the (20:53):
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Hearts of Oak: brexit party all come out of ukip and (20:56):
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Hearts of Oak: and that's kind of come out of nowhere with (20:59):
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Hearts of Oak: nigel being lauded over and huge articles being (21:03):
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Hearts of Oak: written about him and photo shoots and the press (21:05):
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Hearts of Oak: thinking he's no longer evil personified he's (21:08):
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Hearts of Oak: now the greatest thing we've had since churchill and so you've (21:11):
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Hearts of Oak: got that on that side but we in the uk and also (21:14):
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Hearts of Oak: looking across water to ireland have been left on (21:18):
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Hearts of Oak: the side where the rise of parties that actually (21:21):
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Hearts of Oak: care about the nation state all across europe (21:24):
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Hearts of Oak: are having huge success nigel backs away from kind of talking about britishness (21:27):
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Hearts of Oak: about mass immigration um and doesn't seem to know where he is we don't seem (21:34):
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Hearts of Oak: to have anything i'm wondering why no we have been left bereft of a national (21:39):
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Hearts of Oak: party, in effect, national party. (21:44):
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Ben Habib: I'm absolutely stunned by it. I'm stunned by what's happened in reform in the last week. (21:46):
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Ben Habib: It's extraordinary. I mean, as I said at the beginning of this interview, (21:52):
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Ben Habib: I always knew Nigel was a bit of a circus show, but I'm absolutely stunned by (21:56):
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Ben Habib: the way that they have completely vacated the part of the pitch where the British people want them to be, (22:01):
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Ben Habib: where most European citizens want their governments to be. We've seen it right across Europe. (22:07):
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Ben Habib: And yet here, where the electorate is crying out for it, (22:14):
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Ben Habib: The political party to vacate the scene. And so, frankly, from a party political (22:21):
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Ben Habib: perspective, it's very encouraging for Advance UK because we are squarely there. (22:27):
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Ben Habib: You look at our mission statement, which is written before Nigel vacated the (22:33):
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Ben Habib: battleground, as it were. (22:37):
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Ben Habib: Our mission statement is all about nation state. I don't know if you've had (22:40):
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Ben Habib: a chance to read it, but the little section on nation state is we stand by the (22:43):
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Ben Habib: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in all its part and for all its people, (22:48):
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Ben Habib: recognizing the acts of union from 1800, from which we will not deviate and (22:53):
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Ben Habib: we will not tolerate any arrangements which undermine those acts of union, (22:58):
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Ben Habib: namely the Northern Island Protocol and other things that attack it, (23:02):
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Ben Habib: and that we recognize the constitutionally Christian nature of the country. (23:06):
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Ben Habib: That's it. But it's so basic, isn't it, Peter? That statement that I've just made is so basic. (23:11):
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Ben Habib: But there isn't a single political party that can genuinely say that it stands (23:17):
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Ben Habib: for that, other than perhaps UKIP, the Social Democrat Party, and Advance UK. (23:23):
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Hearts of Oak: No, exactly. And we've had so many of those smaller parties. (23:28):
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Hearts of Oak: Some of them have been one-man shoes, have been around an individual, (23:32):
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Hearts of Oak: and we'll not go through the names of them, but others have may have been a bit wider. (23:36):
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Hearts of Oak: You mentioned the STP may have (23:40):
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Hearts of Oak: been a bit wider than that, but hasn't performed at all at the elections. (23:41):
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Hearts of Oak: You've mentioned before about people joining. So you're confirming definitely (23:48):
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Hearts of Oak: that Advance UK is not just Ben Habib's party. It's going to be bigger than that. (23:53):
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Ben Habib: It's critical that it is not me. If there's anything I can leave behind on the political landscape, (23:59):
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Ben Habib: I would go to my deathbed happy if I knew that Advance UK had succeeded in being (24:06):
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Ben Habib: a political force in this country, (24:14):
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Ben Habib: a political force which will not be undermined through entryism and a weakness (24:17):
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Ben Habib: at its core in the way that the other political parties have been weakened. (24:22):
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Ben Habib: If we can create a party of the great thinkers on our side of the debate and (24:25):
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Ben Habib: the fearless speakers, and we can give them the opportunity, (24:30):
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Ben Habib: collectively, therefore, to save the country and to make the case for the country going forward. (24:34):
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Ben Habib: We may have provided the country with a party that goes on for hundreds of years. Who knows? (24:38):
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Ben Habib: And that would be a fantastic legacy for me to do. (24:45):
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Ben Habib: It can never – for an organisation to really succeed into the long term, (24:48):
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Ben Habib: Peter, and again, this is a statement of self-evidently true, (24:53):
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Ben Habib: for any organisation to succeed into the long term, it can never be about one person. (24:57):
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Ben Habib: That one person can champion the ideas, but then he's got to surround himself (25:02):
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Ben Habib: with capable people. It's absolutely fundamental. (25:07):
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Ben Habib: And that's why I've got college. That's why we've got this college, (25:11):
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Ben Habib: because I want lots of really great people in the party. (25:14):
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Ben Habib: It also means, by the way, Peter, if there's an inclination, (25:17):
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Ben Habib: And I have great respect for the people in the SDP and great respect for people (25:23):
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Ben Habib: in UKIP, if there's an inclination of those members and people to join Advance, (25:27):
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Ben Habib: they also have the ability to be properly represented because they could join the college. (25:34):
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Ben Habib: It's not that they give up and surrender to Advance UK. They can come in and (25:41):
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Ben Habib: be an active part of Advance UK. (25:45):
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Ben Habib: And the door is always open. And I've spoken to Nick Tenconi. (25:49):
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Ben Habib: I haven't spoken to William Pouston, but, you know, everyone is everyone of (25:54):
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Ben Habib: our political philosophy is welcome. (25:58):
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Hearts of Oak: Tell me where GPPAC fits into this. You were involved in that at the beginning. (26:03):
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Ben Habib: I'm still involved. (26:10):
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Hearts of Oak: Okay, so tell us how these go together. (26:11):
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Ben Habib: Yeah, so one is a political party. Advance UK is a political party and it will (26:14):
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Ben Habib: stand in elections in due course. (26:18):
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Ben Habib: GPPAC is the political action committee. It will never stand in elections. (26:20):
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Ben Habib: It is a do tank, as Claire Boulevard, its CEO, describes. (26:24):
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Ben Habib: It's not a think tank, it's a do tank. So, I mean, for example, (26:29):
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Ben Habib: it's launched two challenges against the Chagos debacle. (26:33):
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Ben Habib: It's going to be using lawfare to try and slow down the damage being done by (26:38):
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Ben Habib: the Labour Party to our country. (26:45):
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Ben Habib: It's also there to shift the Overton window to the right-hand side, (26:47):
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Ben Habib: the ostensible right-hand side pro-nation state on a cross-party basis. (26:51):
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Ben Habib: It's spearheading an effort to draft the legislation required to repeal all (26:57):
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Ben Habib: the damaging acts of parliament that have been passed since Tony Blair got into office. (27:03):
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Ben Habib: It is getting, if you like, it is acting as a mechanism to prevent the damage (27:08):
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Ben Habib: that the Labour Party is doing to the maximum extent possible for as long as (27:16):
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Ben Habib: the Labour Party is in office, (27:19):
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Ben Habib: but also get the ground ready for the next government. (27:21):
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Ben Habib: So any incoming government has a playbook by which it can immediately act. (27:23):
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Ben Habib: It doesn't have to think from first principles. (27:28):
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Ben Habib: GBPAC aims to be able to just say, well, here's your legislative agenda. (27:32):
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Ben Habib: Off you go. you know saves the country (27:36):
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Hearts of Oak: Okay i another thought (27:39):
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Hearts of Oak: um i've through my time working with lord pearson the last 10 11 years i realized (27:42):
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Hearts of Oak: the um the kind of old boys network and i had no idea how class ridden our uh (27:48):
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Hearts of Oak: system is until i got to meet him and he is unique and probably passes over, (27:54):
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Hearts of Oak: that class divide more than anyone else where he's come from and engaging with (28:02):
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Hearts of Oak: Tommy understanding Islam all of that, (28:07):
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Hearts of Oak: With Nigel, very much part of that system, and your background as well, (28:09):
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Hearts of Oak: privilege, is this just a bunch of kind of privileged guys coming up with ideas? (28:15):
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Hearts of Oak: You know what I mean? Because you have got wide engagement, yes, (28:23):
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Hearts of Oak: but it kind of seems to be the same people or same areas. (28:28):
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Hearts of Oak: Do you know where I'm coming from? Is that a fair enough conversation? (28:34):
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Ben Habib: Yeah, so as if we're all passing the baton from one to the other. (28:36):
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Ben Habib: I would say I'm much... Malcolm, by the way, Malcolm Pearson, (28:42):
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Ben Habib: who is a dear friend of mine, and I've known Malcolm since 1987. (28:48):
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Ben Habib: He's the godfather of my son. So he's a very, very close friend. (28:51):
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Ben Habib: And Malcolm is an extraordinary human being. (28:57):
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Ben Habib: He's done more for this country than I think this country realizes. (29:01):
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Ben Habib: In the 1980s, he was fighting the local education authorities and the communist (29:05):
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Ben Habib: takeover of our teaching organizations. (29:10):
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Ben Habib: He's fought Lloyds of London in order to remove the embedded structural fraud, (29:13):
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Ben Habib: effectively, that existed in Lloyds of London. (29:20):
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Ben Habib: He then fought for our freedom from the EU, and he did that relentlessly. (29:23):
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Ben Habib: And he has campaigned for a discussion, as you know, on Islam (29:27):
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Ben Habib: Leading the way, leading the way, Peter In most of those debates, (29:33):
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Ben Habib: in all those debates He was the first one to challenge the LEAs He was the first (29:38):
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Ben Habib: one to challenge Lloyds He was one of the first to want to get out of the EU (29:42):
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Ben Habib: He's a remarkable human being (29:45):
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Ben Habib: And if there's anyone from whom I can take the baton, it would be terrific to take it from Malcolm. (29:48):
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Ben Habib: And I have the hugest respect for (29:55):
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Ben Habib: him. He had a slightly more privileged background than I did, by the way. (29:57):
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Ben Habib: He comes from the landed gentry and he's got an estate, as you know, in Scotland. (30:03):
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Ben Habib: And he went to Eton and I went to a Midlands boarding school, (30:08):
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Ben Habib: which was very privileged. (30:11):
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Ben Habib: But I do come from humble beginnings. My grandfather was thrown out of his home. (30:12):
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Ben Habib: I think it was 1907 or something was thrown out of his home onto the streets (30:19):
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Ben Habib: of Punjab. My father's Pakistani, I think, as you know, Peter. (30:23):
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Ben Habib: And he my father was the only one who was educated in the family. (30:27):
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Ben Habib: My father made the money that financed my schooling. (30:32):
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Ben Habib: But we lived we lived on the edge of bankruptcy because of the difficulties (30:35):
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Ben Habib: that my father experienced sending me to school. (30:40):
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Ben Habib: So even though I've had a very privileged life, no doubt, to go to rugby, (30:43):
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Ben Habib: then Cambridge University, be able to do what I've done in my life, (30:48):
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Ben Habib: I've been very, very privileged. (30:52):
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Ben Habib: But I have a keen awareness of what happens if you fail to produce the lula (30:53):
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Ben Habib: to keep your head above water. (30:59):
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Ben Habib: And one of the greatest, I'm digressing, but I think it's interesting. (31:04):
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Ben Habib: I think one of the greatest drivers in life is not ambition, (31:08):
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Ben Habib: funnily enough. It's a fear of failure. (31:11):
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Ben Habib: You need both. You need to fear failure, but you need to wish to succeed. (31:13):
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Ben Habib: They come together. You can't have one and not the other, I think. (31:17):
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Ben Habib: You won't succeed if you only have one, not the other. And I have a great fear of failure. (31:22):
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Ben Habib: And I think that what I would like people in the country to have is the tools (31:27):
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Ben Habib: with which they can overcome the fears that they have in life, (31:35):
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Ben Habib: which we all have, and live with aspiration and in a belief that if they endeavor, (31:40):
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Ben Habib: their aspirations and ambitions will be fulfilled and their fears will be done away with. (31:49):
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Ben Habib: There can be no greater happiness for any human being than to be in that place, (31:55):
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Ben Habib: to be in a place where they believe they have the ability to secure their own (32:01):
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Ben Habib: futures and secure the futures of their loved ones and their children. (32:06):
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Ben Habib: That is ultimately what politics is all about. And that's what I aim to deliver (32:10):
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Ben Habib: through Advance UK and through all my colleagues. It's not about me. (32:19):
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Ben Habib: I just want to repeatedly make that clear. And, you know, some people have said (32:23):
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Ben Habib: Advance UK is a vanity project. It's not a vanity project. (32:27):
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Ben Habib: I didn't want to lead it. I wanted Rupert to lead it. I'm stuck leading it, but I will lead it. (32:30):
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Ben Habib: And I will make the best possible shake of the bat or swing of the bat to make it succeed. (32:35):
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Ben Habib: Absolutely. (32:42):
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Hearts of Oak: Can I ask you, in terms of, we mentioned Lord Pearson, obviously he's been probably (32:43):
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Hearts of Oak: the most vocal person in Parliament discussing Islam and the huge concern of integration. (32:50):
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Hearts of Oak: And I know Trevor Phillips, I think, shocked the media world whenever he did (32:57):
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Hearts of Oak: that programme for Channel 4 12 years ago, 14 years ago, time flies, about British Muslims. (33:03):
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Hearts of Oak: And he came to the conclusion that Islam is different. It doesn't seem to want to fit in. (33:10):
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Hearts of Oak: It doesn't want to integrate and wants dominance in a way that no other wave of immigration has. (33:16):
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Hearts of Oak: And that's why it seems to be impossible for Islam to exist, (33:23):
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Hearts of Oak: despite if that's irrelevant from the size of growth, the demographic changes. (33:28):
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Hearts of Oak: It's actually it doesn't want to integrate and (33:33):
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Hearts of Oak: you've got many high streets in london and it's all the (33:36):
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Hearts of Oak: shops are halal even the the kfc's and (33:39):
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Hearts of Oak: mcdonald's they're all halal you've got the mosques you (33:42):
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Hearts of Oak: can't walk past some of the footpaths i (33:45):
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Hearts of Oak: know regularly on a friday walk along you can't walk and you get all that and (33:48):
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Hearts of Oak: how does that you've obviously got an interesting background growing up impacts (33:52):
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Hearts of Oak: and understanding a little bit um of where islam fits in um i don't think I (33:57):
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Hearts of Oak: think you're at the point or place where Lord Pearson is, which is maybe more where I am, (34:02):
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Hearts of Oak: to say that Islam actually is not good for the UK. It's not that it can reform. (34:06):
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Hearts of Oak: How does that debate fit in a political party? (34:11):
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Ben Habib: So, a number of things, and this could take hours, this discussion, (34:15):
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Ben Habib: Peter, but I'm going to try and keep it as short as possible. (34:20):
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Ben Habib: I left Pakistan in 1979. (34:25):
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Ben Habib: Up until about 1977, Pakistan, Iran, the Middle East, Lebanon, (34:27):
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Ben Habib: right across North Africa, Egypt, etc., all practiced what I would call an enlightened form of Islam. (34:34):
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Ben Habib: It was a very different Islam to what you now see across the same region and in the United Kingdom. (34:42):
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Ben Habib: During the 1980s, there was an exportation of fundamentalist Islam from Saudi (34:50):
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Ben Habib: Arabia, the Wahhabi, you know, as I'm sure you're familiar with all of this, (34:56):
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Ben Habib: you know, the Wahhabi form of Islam. (35:02):
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Ben Habib: And Islam has some very fundamental challenges, which it's very difficult for (35:04):
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Ben Habib: the religion to get over. (35:10):
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Ben Habib: And at the heart of the challenge is the belief that the Koran is the word of (35:12):
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Ben Habib: God as dictated to Prophet Muhammad (35:16):
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Ben Habib: by the angel Gabriel and therefore incapable of being improved on. (35:18):
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Ben Habib: And in that one declaration, it prohibits evolution of a belief system, (35:22):
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Ben Habib: because if you believe it's the word of God, it's perfect. (35:29):
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Ben Habib: You can't evolve it. You can't debate it. And of course, if you can't debate (35:33):
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Ben Habib: it, then that means it's also anti-democratic, because there's no mechanism (35:37):
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Ben Habib: by which we can challenge Islam in our Western democracy. (35:42):
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Ben Habib: Now, that doesn't mean to say that the kind of enlightened Islam that was being (35:46):
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Ben Habib: practiced when I was a child can't come to terms with some of those difficult problems. (35:52):
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Ben Habib: But the center of gravity of Islam always tends to go back to that fundamentalist position. (35:58):
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Ben Habib: And I think that people in the country make a mistake. (36:05):
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Ben Habib: Faraj makes this mistake. He talks about Islam only being a challenge when it comes to extremism. (36:09):
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Ben Habib: The bigger challenge with Islam, obviously extremism is bad, (36:16):
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Ben Habib: but the bigger challenge is wrestling its way away from fundamentalism, (36:19):
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Ben Habib: the Bahabi form of Islam, which is particularly prevalent in the United Kingdom. (36:25):
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Ben Habib: We have somehow got some of the most radical believers in this country. (36:30):
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Ben Habib: And as I'm sure you know, Peter, better than I do, or at least as well as I (36:37):
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Ben Habib: do, that there are more proscribed Muslim groups in the UAE than there are in the United Kingdom. (36:41):
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Ben Habib: And some of the UAE proscribed Muslim groups are based in the United Kingdom. (36:48):
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Ben Habib: We tolerate their existence and even the United Arab Emirates recognises that (36:55):
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Ben Habib: they should not be allowed to practise. (37:00):
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Ben Habib: And that is a Muslim country recognising that if it wishes to advance, (37:04):
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Ben Habib: it can't be hijacked by this fundamentalist form of Islam. And (37:10):
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Ben Habib: So Islam tends to be a problem for any liberal Western democracy. (37:15):
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Ben Habib: And in its current form, it is incompatible. I debated this at the Oxford Union. (37:22):
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Ben Habib: You may have seen the debate. (37:28):
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Ben Habib: It's incompatible with the very delicate ecosystem that is our political landscape. (37:29):
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Ben Habib: We have developed our political landscape over hundreds of years with religion (37:38):
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Ben Habib: steadily taking a backseat, ever increasingly taking a backseat, (37:45):
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Ben Habib: to the point now, actually, (37:50):
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Ben Habib: where I think you can challenge the Archbishop of Canterbury on what it actually (37:51):
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Ben Habib: means to be Christian. So bigger backseat he's taken. (37:55):
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Ben Habib: I think they've actually forgotten what it means to be Christian. (37:58):
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Ben Habib: Even King Charles doesn't seem to understand that he's head of the church. (38:01):
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Ben Habib: He's not a multi-faith head. (38:05):
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Ben Habib: He's the head of the church. And we have constitutionally forgotten that we're (38:08):
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Ben Habib: a Christian country. And I think this is the big point. (38:11):
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Ben Habib: The fight that I would like to have is not a fight. (38:15):
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Ben Habib: I don't want to be forever calling out the failings of Islam. (38:20):
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Ben Habib: I think we all know that it presents a challenge to Western democracy. (38:24):
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Ben Habib: What I want to campaign for is the restitution of our cultural, (38:28):
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Ben Habib: constitutional, Christian roots. (38:35):
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Ben Habib: For example, I'm sure you're aware of this too. Starmer wants to remove the (38:39):
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Ben Habib: bishopric from the House of Lords. (38:44):
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Ben Habib: Are you aware of that? Now, at one level, you might think, well, so what? (38:46):
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Ben Habib: Well, huge. That's a huge step, because if he takes the bishopric and the House (38:50):
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Ben Habib: of Lords, we are no longer constitutionally a Christian country. (38:55):
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Ben Habib: We no longer have the presence of church in parliament. (38:58):
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Ben Habib: That's why he wants to do it, because he wants to remove our Christian roots. (39:02):
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Ben Habib: So we must fight for our Christian roots. So what I would say to everyone who (39:06):
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Ben Habib: recognizes the challenges in Islam is, great, fine, but now make the case for (39:11):
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Ben Habib: a Christian constitution. (39:18):
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Ben Habib: Now fight for a Christian constitution. Get rid of the laws and the regulations (39:20):
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Ben Habib: which protect and promote minority religions and make sure that the dominant (39:24):
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Ben Habib: religion in this country and the religion to which all people must at least take the knee, (39:30):
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Ben Habib: even if they're not a member of, is Christianity. (39:36):
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Ben Habib: Anyone coming to this country with any religion, Hindu, Buddhist, (39:39):
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Ben Habib: atheist, Muslim, they come to this country knowing they're coming to a Christian (39:43):
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Ben Habib: country and they must accept our Christianity. whether they like it or not. (39:48):
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Ben Habib: If they can't accept it, they shouldn't be here. (39:52):
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Hearts of Oak: No, exactly. And following on a little bit from that, (39:55):
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Hearts of Oak: one individual in the UK who's probably the most well-known, (40:00):
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Hearts of Oak: I think, up there with Nigel, probably the most Marmite figure, is Tommy Robinson. (40:05):
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Hearts of Oak: How does he fit into this? Because someone who has such widespread support but (40:11):
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Hearts of Oak: is rejected by the mainstream. (40:18):
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Hearts of Oak: And I even saw an interview with Rupert on Lotus Eaters with Carl. (40:20):
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Hearts of Oak: And he was pulling back a little bit, saying, no, no, no. (40:26):
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Hearts of Oak: You know, I don't know him, never met him. You know, we don't need to engage too much. (40:29):
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Hearts of Oak: And he seemed to be pulling back. I think it was regarding the 13th of September (40:33):
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Hearts of Oak: demo whenever Carl asked him, was he speaking? (40:38):
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Hearts of Oak: So how does someone like Tommy fit into what you're building? (40:41):
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Ben Habib: So everyone is welcome to join Advance UK, including Tommy Robinson, if he wishes to join. (40:47):
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Ben Habib: We have no restrictions on membership, unlike some other political parties, (40:54):
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Ben Habib: including Reform, who seem to be more prickly about what people said on Twitter (40:58):
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Ben Habib: four years ago than anything else. (41:02):
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Ben Habib: They'll gladly take Jake Berry, who voted Remain, was pro-lockdown and pro-net zero. (41:04):
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Ben Habib: They'll take him on board because he hasn't said anything aggressive on Twitter, (41:11):
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Ben Habib: where someone who's capable, sound individual might have shot their mouths off (41:16):
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Ben Habib: on Twitter a few years ago and reform won't take them, which is an absolutely absurd position. (41:20):
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Ben Habib: So what we say in Advance UK, our constitutional documents, these Articles of (41:26):
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Ben Habib: Association of Advance UK say that to be a member, you simply have to be a British (41:31):
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Ben Habib: citizen on the electoral roll and not a member of another political party. (41:36):
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Ben Habib: And everyone's welcome. (41:41):
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Ben Habib: The political philosophy of the party will be set by the (41:44):
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Ben Habib: college and the leadership it won't be set by the membership um (41:47):
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Ben Habib: the membership of course subscribe to the policies because (41:50):
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Ben Habib: they're by virtue of being members but we don't subscribe to (41:53):
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Ben Habib: everything members may feel so members can go on and do and say whatever they (41:56):
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Ben Habib: wish to say in public and um and i think that's also quite a defining difference (42:01):
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Ben Habib: peter if i may say so between advanced uk and other parties in you know out (42:05):
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Ben Habib: there in the political landscape um (42:11):
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Ben Habib: So Tommy Robinson has become the Voldemort of British politics. (42:15):
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Ben Habib: And, you know, pioneers often do become the Voldemorts because they have the (42:19):
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Ben Habib: greatest resistance to the change that they wish to bring. (42:25):
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Ben Habib: And we see this we've seen this repeat i (42:29):
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Ben Habib: did history and philosophy of science at university and you (42:31):
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Ben Habib: see this even in educational establishments you (42:34):
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Ben Habib: see it mostly in educational someone comes along with a (42:37):
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Ben Habib: new theory and the scientists of the old will not tolerate it you know so newtonian (42:40):
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Ben Habib: mechanics wasn't replaced by the theory of relativity because all scientists (42:47):
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Ben Habib: suddenly recognize the theory of relativity answers more of the questions than (42:53):
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Ben Habib: newtonian mechanics did, (42:57):
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Ben Habib: you actually literally had to wait for all those who believed in Newtonian mechanics (42:59):
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Ben Habib: to die before the new paradigm could be settled. (43:03):
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Ben Habib: And as change takes place, as this Overton window shifts, (43:07):
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Ben Habib: people like Tommy Robinson, I mean, I can't speak for Tommy Robinson as an individual, (43:12):
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Ben Habib: because I don't know everything that Tommy Robinson's done, and I don't know Tommy Robinson. (43:19):
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Ben Habib: But people like Tommy Robinson, who have been lightning rods for change, (43:24):
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Ben Habib: I think they will become more normalized because as the Overton window shifts (43:27):
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Ben Habib: and the new paradigm is established, and I hope we succeed in establishing it, (43:32):
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Ben Habib: then norms will change. (43:36):
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Ben Habib: And so I see things improving. And I think I heard that Jordan Peterson is speaking, (43:41):
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Ben Habib: Am I right in saying that on the 13th? (43:48):
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Ben Habib: So you're seeing a change in the nature of the speaker already, (43:50):
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Ben Habib: aren't you, at these kinds of events? (43:54):
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Ben Habib: You know, we should be very encouraged by that because it means that freedom (43:57):
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Ben Habib: has featured forcing itself back onto the public stage. (44:02):
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Hearts of Oak: A hundred percent. Just one last thought before I let you go, Ben. (44:07):
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Hearts of Oak: Something that's happened in the last day or two. and this is the whole immigration £7 billion, (44:13):
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Hearts of Oak: Afghan super injunction because this was a concerted government obviously applied (44:21):
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Hearts of Oak: for a super injunction they thought the public have no right to know that they're (44:27):
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Hearts of Oak: spending billions and billions to bring in foreigners. (44:30):
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Hearts of Oak: It fits in with their immigration policy of course and Labour picking up this (44:35):
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Hearts of Oak: and talking about it but it kind of sums up where we are in British politics, (44:40):
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Hearts of Oak: that actually the public have no right to know, we can do anything we want to (44:46):
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Hearts of Oak: do, and you just shut up and accept it. (44:50):
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Ben Habib: Well, there can be no better example of the liberal global elite than bringing (44:53):
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Ben Habib: 23,900 Afghans into this country at vast cost, without us having a say in the matter. (44:57):
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Ben Habib: And I believe the number could be as high as 100,000 when they bring their families to (45:05):
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Ben Habib: It's absolutely absurd. And I also understand that once they're here, (45:10):
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Ben Habib: they'll be able to take legal action against the government, (45:14):
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Ben Habib: effectively against the British state, because of the leak of their details a few years ago. (45:17):
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Ben Habib: So we are literally bringing people to this country so they can sue us. (45:23):
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Ben Habib: You couldn't make this up. It literally it's so bizarre. (45:28):
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Ben Habib: We are bringing people to this country so they can sue us. (45:34):
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Ben Habib: And that is the liberal global elite. And that is the enemy. That is the enemy. (45:37):
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Ben Habib: It's not the left. I mean, the traditional left would have fought for the nation (45:43):
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Ben Habib: state of the United Kingdom. They would have fought for workers' rights. (45:47):
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Ben Habib: They would have put British citizens above all else. (45:50):
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Ben Habib: This is some other dynamic. (45:54):
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Ben Habib: This is anti-nation state, anti-democracy, anti-the-majority interest, (45:56):
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Ben Habib: anti-what's in the national interest. This is anti-nation state stuff. (46:03):
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Ben Habib: It's crazy and nothing yeah it's as if the establishment (46:09):
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