Chloe Cole - A Personal Lament of Transition and how Faith Has Brought Healing and Purpose

Chloe Cole discusses her journey as a young trans woman in an interview with Hearts of Oak, detailing her experiences with gender identity and medical transition beginning at age 13. She reflects on the emotional and physical repercussions of her choices, criticizing societal pressures and the coercive tactics used by medical professionals regarding early interventions for gender dysphoria. Chloe highlights her family dynamics during her transition and emphasizes the long-term health consequences she faces. Transitioning into activism, she advocates for awareness and legislative protections for vulnerable youth while also sharing how her faith journey has played a pivotal role in her healing process. The interview provides a nuanced perspective on identity, medical ethics, and the impacts of transitioning on young lives.

 

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*Special thanks to Bosch Fawstin for recording our intro/outro on this podcast.

Check out his art theboschfawstinstore.blogspot.com and follow him on 𝕏 x.com/TheBoschFawstin

 

 

Episode Transcript

Hearts of Oak: And hello, Hearts of Oak. Thanks so much for joining us once again. (00:24):
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Hearts of Oak: And I'm delighted to have someone who I've followed from afar for quite a while. (00:27):
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Hearts of Oak: And that is Chloe Cole. (00:32):
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Hearts of Oak: Chloe, thank you so much for giving us your time today. (00:34):
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Chloe Cole: Thank you so much for having me. (00:38):
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Hearts of Oak: Great to have you. And thanks to Billboard Chris for putting us together. (00:39):
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Hearts of Oak: I nudged Billboard Chris and he came straight back to me. Of course I can reach out to Chloe. (00:44):
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Hearts of Oak: So thank you to Chris for making it happen. (00:50):
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Hearts of Oak: And there is your handle on X. Make sure and follow it. (00:54):
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Hearts of Oak: All the other links are in the description. (00:59):
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Hearts of Oak: And I've been blown away watching Chloe as being only 20 and what she's been through. (01:02):
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Hearts of Oak: And also the media journey that she's been on worst has been fascinating. (01:09):
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Hearts of Oak: And your bio on your X handle is 20, (01:15):
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Hearts of Oak: California trans woman on a mission, speaking up (01:19):
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Hearts of Oak: for kids faith and truth i told congress (01:22):
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Hearts of Oak: my story now sharing it with you and i (01:25):
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Hearts of Oak: am delighted to have her come with us and share her story (01:29):
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Hearts of Oak: with us now i i'm not going to go into your story i want to hear it from you (01:32):
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Hearts of Oak: i could give give your whole bio but and i want to get your thoughts on the (01:37):
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Hearts of Oak: current pushback and we are seeing in the us i think in europe um on the the gender change therapy, (01:42):
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Hearts of Oak: the embrace of gender dysphoria in the UK, we had a clinic called the Tavistock (01:49):
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Hearts of Oak: Gender Identity Development Service, (01:54):
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Hearts of Oak: which is a mouthful, which no longer exists, but now re-exists in a different form. (01:58):
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Hearts of Oak: But I would like to ask you about your story. (02:02):
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Hearts of Oak: I think a lot of our US viewers may be familiar with that. Our UK viewers may be less so. (02:05):
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Hearts of Oak: So may I ask you to tell us your childhood story before we move on to other aspects of it? (02:12):
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Chloe Cole: Yes. So I'm somebody who has went through the process (02:19):
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Chloe Cole: of both a social and medical gender (02:22):
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Chloe Cole: transition consisting of puberty blockers and weekly high-dose testosterone (02:25):
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Chloe Cole: injections at 13 and a double mastectomy to remove my breast at 15 before detransitioning (02:29):
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Chloe Cole: at the age of 16 and speaking out about not only the medical horrors of what I've been through, (02:37):
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Chloe Cole: but also in favor of the protection of children like me who are vulnerable, (02:43):
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Chloe Cole: who deserve to be protected, and for the rights of parents. (02:47):
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Chloe Cole: And I address colleges, churches, and different communities across the U.S. and now abroad. (02:51):
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Hearts of Oak: Well, I want to get your kind of the input you've had and the engagement you've (02:58):
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Hearts of Oak: had and the media reach you've had. (03:04):
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Hearts of Oak: But Megan, I ask you about going back. (03:05):
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Hearts of Oak: We, I guess, growing up (03:09):
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Hearts of Oak: uh going through puberty there are kind (03:13):
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Hearts of Oak: of questions wondering who you are um and for for most people that is a fairly (03:15):
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Hearts of Oak: straight process for others maybe they question their identity more what was (03:22):
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Hearts of Oak: it what was it like for you and what led you to the path of going through that transition process. (03:28):
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Chloe Cole: The irony is (03:34):
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Chloe Cole: that i was actually a very (03:37):
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Chloe Cole: feminine girl throughout a lot of my childhood I loved (03:39):
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Chloe Cole: wearing dresses I loved wearing pink my dad will often tease (03:43):
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Chloe Cole: me and say I mean I couldn't even go out the house without (03:46):
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Chloe Cole: like wearing some sort of bright color or a poofy tutu when I was really young (03:49):
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Chloe Cole: and I I quite liked being a girl but the older that I got the more that I just (03:54):
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Chloe Cole: aligned a little bit more with the boys around me I became more of I guess a (04:00):
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Chloe Cole: stereotypical tomboy playing video games, playing rough, playing outside. (04:04):
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Chloe Cole: And I had a sense of humor and just a personality that I felt more comfortable, (04:09):
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Chloe Cole: just more comfortable being around men and around boys with. (04:14):
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Chloe Cole: But I never really considered myself to actually be a boy until a few years (04:18):
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Chloe Cole: into puberty as I was going through middle school, which I had started puberty a little bit younger. (04:24):
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Chloe Cole: I was one of the first few girls in my class to start developing at around the age of eight or nine. (04:30):
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Chloe Cole: And with that came a lot of just inappropriate tension from both of their kids (04:35):
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Chloe Cole: teasing me about it, or just making inappropriate comments about it, (04:40):
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Chloe Cole: or even adults, even teachers and family friends doing the same thing. (04:43):
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Chloe Cole: And that's a very, unfortunately, that's a very common formative experience (04:49):
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Chloe Cole: for a lot of girls going through puberty at any age, really. (04:54):
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Chloe Cole: But with how young that I was, it was a little extra pressure. (04:57):
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Chloe Cole: I didn't really feel like I had a whole lot of guidance around it or understanding (05:01):
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Chloe Cole: around it from the adults around me. And (05:04):
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Chloe Cole: It made me start to despise even being female a little bit. (05:08):
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Chloe Cole: And with what I was hearing in the media and even from other girls and other (05:13):
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Chloe Cole: women about some of the facts of life about being a woman, (05:18):
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Chloe Cole: some of the difficulties of growing up from a girl into a grown woman, periods, (05:22):
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Chloe Cole: the risk of pregnancy, and all the responsibilities that come with that, (05:29):
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Chloe Cole: it was always spoken about in a very negative light. (05:33):
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Chloe Cole: And so I started to think, okay, well, in a lot of ways, I'm more boyish. (05:35):
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Chloe Cole: And sometimes I don't really feel like I'm very pretty or feminine enough to (05:39):
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Chloe Cole: really be a proper woman. (05:44):
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Chloe Cole: And if growing up was just going to lead me to experiencing pain and not much (05:45):
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Chloe Cole: else, then why ever would I want to be a woman? (05:51):
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Chloe Cole: Why would I want to become an adult when this is what I'm going to face? (05:55):
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Chloe Cole: Eventually, those thoughts started going further as I (06:00):
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Chloe Cole: started to develop an undiagnosed form of body dysmorphia as I started to look (06:03):
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Chloe Cole: at myself in the mirror and think there's no way I'm ever going to be beautiful (06:09):
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Chloe Cole: and I wish I could just be a boy and be happy they must have it so much easier (06:11):
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Chloe Cole: I mean look at my older brothers I wish I could have been born a son (06:17):
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Chloe Cole: And this was very shortly before I discovered the online transgender community (06:23):
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Chloe Cole: which was just chock full of other kids who were just like me in a lot of ways (06:27):
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Chloe Cole: kids who were like a little bit nerdier, a little bit more creative, (06:31):
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Chloe Cole: many of them a little bit more socially isolated like I was throughout most of my formative years. (06:35):
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Chloe Cole: It wasn't celebrities who I was looking at. (06:40):
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Chloe Cole: It was other kids who were down to earth, just honestly and earnestly talking (06:43):
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Chloe Cole: about their experiences, their feelings, leading up to the transition, (06:49):
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Chloe Cole: and then detailing the process of them questioning their gender first, (06:53):
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Chloe Cole: and then starting to do things like cutting their hair shorter or grow it out if they're a boy. (06:57):
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Chloe Cole: And starting to dress more like the opposite sex, taking upon different names. (07:03):
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Chloe Cole: And many of them even going on to tell their families, tell their friends, (07:08):
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Chloe Cole: live a lifestyle as the opposite sex, and then eventually going on to go down the medical path. (07:12):
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Chloe Cole: And it was not only something that personally touched my heart and my soul, (07:18):
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Chloe Cole: Seeing these other kids who had a lot of my same struggles start to become seemingly (07:26):
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Chloe Cole: better and happier and seem to start to find who they truly were, (07:32):
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Chloe Cole: something that I had always yearned for from a very young age. (07:37):
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Chloe Cole: It also was just so unique to me. And I started to take a bit of an intellectual (07:42):
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Chloe Cole: interest in it until I started doing research on it independently of looking (07:47):
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Chloe Cole: at these people's stories. (07:53):
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Chloe Cole: I started to look at medical literature even around it, including from my own (07:54):
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Chloe Cole: healthcare provider at the time, Kaiser Permanente, which in many states, (07:59):
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Chloe Cole: especially in California, is the top provider for the use of these treatments in children. (08:04):
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Chloe Cole: It was very propagandized. I really didn't see anything, actually, (08:11):
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Chloe Cole: that was against transitioning in any way. (08:15):
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Chloe Cole: And the ideas that I was getting was that some people are born in the wrong body. (08:19):
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Chloe Cole: Some people never become comfortable with living as their birth sex. (08:25):
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Chloe Cole: And that is an innate trait. These people are called transgender, (08:30):
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Chloe Cole: and they have a condition called gender dysphoria. (08:34):
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Chloe Cole: And the only treatment for it is a medical gender transition. (08:37):
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Chloe Cole: The more that I learned about it, the more research that I did, (08:44):
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Chloe Cole: and the more that I resonated with these other children's stories, (08:48):
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Chloe Cole: The more I started to believe maybe I was born in the wrong body. (08:54):
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Chloe Cole: Maybe this is why I feel so uncomfortable as I'm going through puberty as I (08:59):
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Chloe Cole: look at my breast as I look at the other burgeoning developing parts of my body (09:05):
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Chloe Cole: maybe it's because it never was meant to be (09:09):
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Chloe Cole: And for a while I found peace in the fact that I was going to hopefully find (09:16):
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Chloe Cole: happiness in pursuing a life as a young man. (09:21):
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Chloe Cole: And with all the messaging and the sort of subliminal peer influence, (09:27):
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Chloe Cole: eventually I made the decision to go down this path as a child. (09:35):
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Hearts of Oak: Tell me, where is the push? Did you see the kind of the steps towards this from (09:41):
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Hearts of Oak: social media or is it from the medical industry? (09:51):
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Hearts of Oak: Is this social media kind of thinking this is a fad and something different (09:55):
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Hearts of Oak: and therefore ideologically driven? (09:59):
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Hearts of Oak: Or is this the medical industry thinking this is a money making tool? (10:02):
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Hearts of Oak: We can jump on this. where did you um kind of see the encouragement to where you were. (10:08):
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Chloe Cole: It's a little bit of both for me (10:15):
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Chloe Cole: personally most of the influence came just from (10:18):
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Chloe Cole: social media and seeing those other kids and (10:21):
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Chloe Cole: being and being slowly influenced by them over time and in my case there wasn't (10:24):
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Chloe Cole: necessarily a push from other kids it was more so seeing them start to become (10:30):
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Chloe Cole: at least superficially happier um start to build build friendships in the transgender (10:35):
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Chloe Cole: community and in their new identities (10:42):
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Chloe Cole: and the see the changes start to happen in (10:45):
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Chloe Cole: their lives both in their appearance and their bodies and also just socially (10:48):
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Chloe Cole: and emotionally for them and nobody ever really talked about the negative aspects (10:51):
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Chloe Cole: of transitioning but i got to see excuse me i got to see these kids live a life (10:56):
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Chloe Cole: that i basically had dreamed of as an awkward, (11:02):
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Chloe Cole: tomboyish kid who from a very young age felt very socially isolated and really (11:07):
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Chloe Cole: struggled emotionally and socially. (11:11):
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Chloe Cole: But there definitely is a lot of money that moves through the hospital systems (11:15):
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Chloe Cole: and through the clinics that perform these procedures. (11:18):
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Chloe Cole: There is a major financial incentive for the surgeons, for the doctors who prescribe (11:21):
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Chloe Cole: these treatments, for the doctors who give the referrals, and of course the (11:27):
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Chloe Cole: pharmaceutical companies that produce these, the drugs for it. (11:30):
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Chloe Cole: It's, I think it's a multi-billion dollar industry and it's the perfect storm (11:35):
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Chloe Cole: because it's not just a social fad like anorexia and bulimia and plastic surgery are. (11:40):
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Chloe Cole: There's also a social and political component of it. It's been made into a human (11:46):
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Chloe Cole: rights issue by the left. (11:51):
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Chloe Cole: There, this idea that being transgender is an innate identity. It's a condition. (11:52):
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Chloe Cole: And if you deny trans identified people, if you deny gender confused children (11:58):
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Chloe Cole: this treatment at as early as possible, then you're taking away a basic human (12:03):
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Chloe Cole: right to life-saving healthcare. (12:10):
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Chloe Cole: They don't talk about the fact that this is something that actually causes destruction (12:12):
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Chloe Cole: in the body and in the mind. (12:15):
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Hearts of Oak: Now, I've watched a number of interviews you've done and you talk about your (12:18):
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Hearts of Oak: parents being confronted with this fact that either they would lose you to you (12:25):
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Hearts of Oak: taking your life or else they would have you in a different gender. (12:31):
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Hearts of Oak: And that's a frightening position for any parent to be in. (12:35):
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Hearts of Oak: Tell us a little bit more is is that kind of presentation is that accurate or (12:42):
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Hearts of Oak: is that a drive by an industry to push on a certain path. (12:49):
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Chloe Cole: So unfortunately yes that is (12:53):
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Chloe Cole: a common experience amongst the children and parents (12:56):
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Chloe Cole: who go through the the therapy process um with this they're often the mom the (12:59):
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Chloe Cole: mother and father are often just like driven into a corner until they say yes (13:06):
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Chloe Cole: being told that the life of their child is on the line unless they say yes to (13:10):
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Chloe Cole: this, unless they intervene as early as possible. (13:14):
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Chloe Cole: This is a tactic that pretty much every doctor who is in favor of transitioning (13:17):
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Chloe Cole: does with the parents. It's complete emotional manipulation and it's fraudulent. (13:22):
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Chloe Cole: They make these bold claims that the gender-affirming care model is life-saving, (13:30):
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Chloe Cole: that it prevents suicide, And that the risk of suicide is extremely high in (13:37):
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Chloe Cole: transgender individuals and especially children when you do not intervene, (13:43):
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Chloe Cole: when you allow them to develop into their birth sex because of their gender (13:48):
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Chloe Cole: dysphoria worsening and their (13:52):
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Chloe Cole: sense of identity becoming more and more misaligned with their body. Yeah. (13:54):
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Chloe Cole: There was actually a major breakthrough in last year's U.S. (14:01):
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Chloe Cole: Versus Scrimetti case that was examining whether Tennessee's ban on transgender (14:05):
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Chloe Cole: treatments for children was constitutional, (14:10):
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Chloe Cole: in which an ACLU lawyer admitted during questioning that suicides are extremely (14:12):
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Chloe Cole: rare in the childhood and adolescent population of transgender-identified people. (14:22):
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Chloe Cole: So the entire basis of the treatment is just, it's a complete lie. (14:27):
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Chloe Cole: Now, my mom and dad had sent me, they had sent me to therapy after I had told (14:34):
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Chloe Cole: them that I identified as transgender, that I wanted to be their son, (14:40):
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Chloe Cole: because, well, they weren't really exactly sure what to do. (14:43):
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Chloe Cole: And this is something that they had never really had to contend with before (14:50):
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Chloe Cole: with any of my older siblings which I have I have four older siblings and I'm (14:53):
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Chloe Cole: the baby of the family so I was in a lot of ways raising me was just a very (14:58):
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Chloe Cole: unique experience compared to my my sisters and brothers (15:02):
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Chloe Cole: and this was just one another thing on top of on top of all the others they (15:06):
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Chloe Cole: wanted to be supportive of me they wanted to help me feel comfortable in my (15:11):
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Chloe Cole: own skin but they weren't really sure how to go about this, (15:14):
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Chloe Cole: but they definitely did not want to push me any further into this ideation that (15:16):
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Chloe Cole: I was of the opposite sex. (15:22):
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Chloe Cole: They just wanted to allow me some time to grow up, to figure out these feelings, (15:23):
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Chloe Cole: possibly where they come from, and maybe it would end up being a face. (15:29):
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Chloe Cole: And they sent me to psychologists because they want to see where these feelings (15:35):
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Chloe Cole: might have actually come from. (15:42):
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Chloe Cole: And they knew that i had some other psychiatric issues they had a learning disability (15:44):
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Chloe Cole: so it wasn't i think it was a very sensible choice for them but they didn't (15:48):
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Chloe Cole: expect just the complete manipulation that would come from every single one (15:52):
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Chloe Cole: of the doctors who were involved (15:55):
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Chloe Cole: not (15:58):
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Hearts of Oak: It's in um you can tell me as much as you or as little as you want but it's (15:59):
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Hearts of Oak: interesting as someone who grows up in a in a larger family um and therefore (16:04):
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Hearts of Oak: the whole family is is is going through this, (16:09):
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Hearts of Oak: it's not that you were an only child and didn't have others around you. (16:13):
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Hearts of Oak: How, I guess, maybe give us a little bit of a window, as much as you want to, (16:17):
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Hearts of Oak: of kind of how those conversations happen around those that actually are your (16:22):
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Hearts of Oak: most loved ones, siblings and family, (16:28):
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Hearts of Oak: at the confusion, not wanting to stop your desires, but wanting to input some advice and thoughts. (16:31):
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Hearts of Oak: And how does that kind of confusion of siblingry kind of connect with. (16:40):
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Chloe Cole: So within my family, there were a lot of different reactions. (16:51):
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Chloe Cole: My mom and dad were just trying to—it was very disorienting for them. (16:58):
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Chloe Cole: First, for me to tell them that I hated myself so much that I wanted to be somebody (17:05):
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Chloe Cole: who I wasn't, that's a very difficult thing for any parent to hear, (17:11):
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Chloe Cole: really, especially for my mom, I think. (17:14):
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Chloe Cole: And then to be separated from me in the, in the therapy process, (17:18):
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Chloe Cole: which I mean, it's, it's pretty standard practice, um, especially with gender (17:23):
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Chloe Cole: dysphoric patients, um, the children (17:28):
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Chloe Cole: for them to be separated from their, their mom and dad for a little bit. (17:31):
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Chloe Cole: Um, so that the therapist can get some information out of them that they might (17:35):
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Chloe Cole: not be able to otherwise, that they might not be comfortable talking about the parents with. (17:38):
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Chloe Cole: Um, but in my case, my mom and dad were just never allowed to be in the appointment with me. (17:42):
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Chloe Cole: And that was because in California, children at the age of 12 are considered (17:46):
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Chloe Cole: to be medically emancipated, at least I think with psychological healthcare. (17:50):
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Chloe Cole: So parents can't access records. (17:56):
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Chloe Cole: They can't, unless a child gives explicit, I think either written or oral consent (17:58):
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Chloe Cole: for their mom or dad to be in the appointment with them, then they just, (18:03):
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Chloe Cole: they're not going to be allowed to have any idea what's going on. (18:06):
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Chloe Cole: And so my mom and dad were getting really frustrated, not only with this, (18:09):
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Chloe Cole: but also with the fact that I was getting worse, even though I was seeing a psychologist. (18:12):
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Chloe Cole: So they decided to speak to the doctors themselves. And then they were endlessly (18:17):
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Chloe Cole: given this lie that I was probably going very likely going to take my own life (18:22):
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Chloe Cole: if I did not undergo this treatment at the age that I was. (18:26):
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Chloe Cole: And they really were scared for me. No mother, no father wants to hear that, (18:30):
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Chloe Cole: let alone from a doctor about their kid wanting to take their own life, (18:34):
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Chloe Cole: wanting of their child's (18:39):
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Chloe Cole: Dying before they do. No parent wants that. (18:44):
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Chloe Cole: And this also was a lie. I was not suicidal at all until I started on treatment, (18:48):
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Chloe Cole: but they did not know about that until after my transition had ended far too late. (18:54):
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Chloe Cole: And during the process of my transition, my relationship with my mom and dad, (19:01):
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Chloe Cole: at first, as I seemingly became happier and more comfortable with myself in (19:06):
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Chloe Cole: the early stages of my transition, our relationship improved a little bit. (19:11):
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Chloe Cole: We got a little bit closer. (19:15):
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Chloe Cole: We bonded a little bit more. But then as the psychological and physical effects (19:17):
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Chloe Cole: and the stress of transitioning at such a young age took its toll on me, (19:22):
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Chloe Cole: I became more socially isolated just in general. I started pushing the people around me away. (19:26):
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Chloe Cole: And having been on testosterone and with it dysregulating my mood, (19:31):
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Chloe Cole: I would often get into fights and disputes with the people around me who I love the most. (19:36):
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Chloe Cole: And my mom and dad just really didn't know what to do with me during this time for the longest time. (19:44):
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Chloe Cole: And it was especially painful for (19:49):
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Chloe Cole: my older brothers to stand by (19:53):
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Chloe Cole: and watch what was happening and my (19:56):
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Chloe Cole: oldest brother especially just hated to see it all he was he was the person (20:00):
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Chloe Cole: who I was closest to for a lot of my childhood and when a few years before I started to go down the (20:07):
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Chloe Cole: He, I mean, they're all much older than me, and he became an adult, (20:19):
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Chloe Cole: and he went into the Navy. (20:24):
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Chloe Cole: So we had no contact with each other for a few years. (20:27):
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Chloe Cole: And I remember, he had no idea. (20:32):
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Chloe Cole: Until one day, when we were on vacation, my mom and dad called him, (20:37):
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Chloe Cole: and he heard my voice in the background. (20:43):
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Chloe Cole: And I was on testosterone for a few months by this point in time. (20:49):
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Chloe Cole: He had no idea until he asked, (20:53):
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Chloe Cole: Mom, what's wrong with Chloe's voice? Is she sick? What's the matter with her? (20:57):
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Chloe Cole: And she explained to him, well, now we're raising your sister as your brother. (21:04):
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Chloe Cole: And she's going through the process of a medical gender transition (21:14):
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Chloe Cole: and there is there is so much weight in his silence after that he just didn't (21:20):
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Chloe Cole: speak for a few seconds until he finally said (21:28):
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Chloe Cole: you know most kids are going to end up regretting doing that at such a young (21:34):
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Chloe Cole: age and at the time I just thought he was my brother's such an idiot. (21:38):
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Chloe Cole: He doesn't know that. He has no idea. (21:45):
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Chloe Cole: He doesn't know what he's talking about. He hasn't gone through what I have. (21:48):
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Chloe Cole: And I just left the room because I was uncomfortable. But what I didn't know (21:53):
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Chloe Cole: at the time was that my brother actually had a lot of adult transgender friends. (21:57):
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Chloe Cole: And he later talked about this with them. And all of them said, (22:03):
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Chloe Cole: this is a really bad idea this is for adults and you should try your best to (22:08):
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Chloe Cole: dissuade your parents and your sister from doing this (22:14):
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Hearts of Oak: Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow. One of the drugs that often is talked about is puberty blockers. (22:20):
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Hearts of Oak: And I've looked in the Tavistock Clinic that was running for well over a decade, (22:29):
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Hearts of Oak: and then it came out, there were zero long-term studies of the effects of these drugs. (22:34):
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Hearts of Oak: And yet somehow doctors and (22:40):
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Hearts of Oak: nurses were prescribing these with zero data (22:43):
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Hearts of Oak: and that's yet to come out and i don't know (22:46):
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Hearts of Oak: whether we'll see legal action and in the u.s you're kind of having the same (22:49):
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Hearts of Oak: conversation but how does i mean i'm shocked that a pharmaceutical company will (22:54):
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Hearts of Oak: even come up with a product that actually would stop a completely natural process (22:59):
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Hearts of Oak: what's the issue in as you've looked into it. (23:04):
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Chloe Cole: In terms of studies (23:08):
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Hearts of Oak: On these um and how anyone comes up with the idea that using some kind of this (23:10):
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Hearts of Oak: drug on someone will be a positive thing on their um on them i. (23:16):
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Chloe Cole: Mean all of almost all of the treatments except i think the the genital surgeries have been used (23:21):
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Chloe Cole: in legitimate medical practices the puberty blocker drug that they usually use um which in (23:31):
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Chloe Cole: my case was luprolide, has been used in cases of children who have precocious (23:38):
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Chloe Cole: puberty, like they're hitting puberty when they're only like infants and toddlers, (23:44):
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Chloe Cole: which is very, obviously very, very extreme cases. (23:47):
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Chloe Cole: It's not perfectly healthy children going through a normal puberty at a normal age. (23:51):
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Chloe Cole: It's also been used in people with reproductive cancers and conditions like endometriosis. (23:56):
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Chloe Cole: What they don't tell you in these doctor's appointments is that it's also been (24:05):
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Chloe Cole: used as a chemical castration agent, but also in a lot of those populations, (24:09):
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Chloe Cole: they've stopped using that drug for that purpose because it's been deemed too cruel. (24:14):
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Chloe Cole: And yet again, we're using it on perfectly healthy children who are going through (24:19):
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Chloe Cole: purity at a normal age, like I was. (24:24):
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Chloe Cole: And... (24:28):
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Chloe Cole: It's also like a lot of these treatments, the testosterone has been used for (24:30):
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Chloe Cole: people who are struggling with fertility, who have hormonal deficiencies. (24:35):
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Chloe Cole: And the mastectomies originally were a treatment for preventive cases of people (24:43):
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Chloe Cole: who have high risk of breast cancer or they already have an advanced enough (24:49):
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Chloe Cole: breast cancer to have to take out all the breast tissue. (24:53):
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Chloe Cole: And every single one of these treatments have been used off-label. (24:56):
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Chloe Cole: I don't think the FDA has approved the use of any of them and use (25:00):
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Chloe Cole: of transgender patients and especially not (25:03):
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Chloe Cole: children and as you said there there's no good evidence in favor of using these (25:07):
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Chloe Cole: treatments at all and whether it's it's adult patients or children and there (25:14):
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Chloe Cole: are no long-term studies of how they affect the body. (25:20):
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Chloe Cole: But we do have testimonies of, (25:26):
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Chloe Cole: I think, at least thousands of detransitioners at this point who have spoken (25:30):
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Chloe Cole: about the damages done psychologically and physically to their sexual organs, to their fertility. (25:37):
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Chloe Cole: I don't know if I am going to be able to have children of my own, (25:47):
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Chloe Cole: Because I was so young when they blocked my puberty and then they put me on (25:53):
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Chloe Cole: the hormonal treatments. (25:57):
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Chloe Cole: I only had, I think, like three periods before they completely stopped them (25:59):
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Chloe Cole: and then they put me on the male hormones. And... (26:04):
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Chloe Cole: Thankfully, I have been able to get them back. They start happening again. (26:09):
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Chloe Cole: They've been fairly regular since about two months after I stopped taking the testosterone. (26:13):
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Chloe Cole: And while it's a good sign, female fertility is just something that's so complex. (26:18):
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Chloe Cole: For all I know, the eggs in my body could have not developed enough for me to (26:25):
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Chloe Cole: be able to safely conceive a child. (26:28):
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Chloe Cole: I don't know about risk of things like birth defects or any maternal conditions (26:30):
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Chloe Cole: for me while I'm carrying, whether I might be developing reproductive cancers later on in life. (26:36):
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Chloe Cole: There's just so many unknowns, but I have lasting complications from every single (26:43):
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Chloe Cole: one of the three main treatments. (26:47):
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Chloe Cole: It's been years out, and the puberty blockers are known to cause damage to the (26:50):
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Chloe Cole: bones and decalcifying them, (26:57):
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Chloe Cole: causing issues with teeth, which I have experienced as well. I've had recessed gums. (26:59):
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Chloe Cole: I have thin enamel, which I'm already genetically predisposed to. (27:06):
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Chloe Cole: And I also get back pains and joint pains because of it. (27:10):
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Chloe Cole: From the testosterone, it's changed my appearance permanently. (27:14):
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Chloe Cole: Luckily, I've been able to refeminize, but I have a leftover Adam's apple. (27:20):
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Chloe Cole: My voice is never going to fully refeminize. (27:24):
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Chloe Cole: And I have issues with chronic pelvic pain. (27:28):
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Chloe Cole: I it's it's a possibility that I might even (27:33):
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Chloe Cole: have PCOS which is something that is known to be associated with (27:36):
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Chloe Cole: higher levels of testosterone in in (27:38):
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Chloe Cole: women and with the mastectomy I'm never (27:42):
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Chloe Cole: going to be able to have my breast back so that's missing function that's a (27:45):
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Chloe Cole: missing part of my sexuality as a now adult woman and if I do have children (27:50):
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Chloe Cole: in the future I'm never going to be able to feed my children with what God gifted me when I was born. (27:57):
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Hearts of Oak: Can I ask you about your activism and speaking on this? (28:06):
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Hearts of Oak: I saw you posted a few days ago, and we chatted just before we went live, (28:14):
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Hearts of Oak: on Hermit Dillon and what she (28:18):
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Hearts of Oak: has done in filling out, I think it was Billboard Crisset had put that up. (28:21):
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Hearts of Oak: So you've got that. So how does (28:27):
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Hearts of Oak: the current political climate with with President Trump fit into this? (28:29):
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Hearts of Oak: And is this a state issue? I mean, talking to Jeff Younger in in Texas, (28:35):
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Hearts of Oak: but his wife took their child to California. (28:41):
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Hearts of Oak: And it seems to be this is very much a state by state issue, (28:45):
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Hearts of Oak: although Texas could be in a hell of a lot more of this issue. (28:49):
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Hearts of Oak: So where is the current situation kind of politically in the pushback and regaining (28:52):
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Hearts of Oak: some kind of normality in this situation? (28:59):
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Chloe Cole: It's really funny because when I first started speaking out about three years (29:04):
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Chloe Cole: ago at this point, I was still 17, and I really didn't have any engagement in politics at all. (29:11):
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Chloe Cole: I just wanted to share my story with the world and see where it brought me. (29:17):
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Chloe Cole: I had no idea that I was going to be endorsing Donald Trump in a video of my (29:21):
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Chloe Cole: own and even in an advertisement for his campaign. or that (29:29):
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Hearts of Oak: I'd be speaking. (29:34):
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Chloe Cole: Across the country on legislation with various states, even help to write it (29:34):
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Chloe Cole: and in front of Congress and to be working so closely with the administration (29:40):
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Chloe Cole: and with the federal governments on creating change for this issue. (29:44):
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Chloe Cole: But I'm really, personally, I'm really grateful for the last few years of my (29:48):
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Chloe Cole: life and where the journey has taken me. (29:53):
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Chloe Cole: It's been incredibly transformative, not just for me in recovering from all (29:54):
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Chloe Cole: this and getting to see some vindication and injustice for everything that's (30:01):
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Chloe Cole: happened to me and to thousands of other individuals, (30:06):
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Chloe Cole: but also to be allied with so many wonderful, incredible people along the way. (30:09):
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Chloe Cole: And I had no idea that the tide would turn as quickly as it has over just the (30:15):
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Chloe Cole: past few years, especially with the Trump administration, (30:22):
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Chloe Cole: Especially with Trump being elected and going into the presidency again this year, (30:28):
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Chloe Cole: I think he's written more executive orders than I think any other president historically has. (30:35):
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Chloe Cole: And a lot of those are on the transgender issue, different facets of it, like the sports issue, (30:45):
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Chloe Cole: instituting a federal definition of female and mail, (30:51):
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Chloe Cole: and also a federal order that targets primarily the funding of these children's (30:54):
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Chloe Cole: hospitals and these clinics and other practices that are targeting these vulnerable children. (31:03):
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Chloe Cole: It's really incredible to see just not only where the culture is heading with (31:07):
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Chloe Cole: this issue and the increased awareness around it, (31:12):
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Chloe Cole: but also with the fact that we have a president and we have a cabinet and we (31:14):
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Chloe Cole: have a federal government that is so eager to act on this issue and protect (31:18):
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Chloe Cole: children And years before, (31:22):
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Chloe Cole: especially with the Biden administration, they were so sluggish and even pushing (31:24):
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Chloe Cole: further and further and further in favor of the widespread mutilation and abuse (31:28):
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Chloe Cole: of our children and vulnerable young people. (31:33):
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Hearts of Oak: That media journey, and then I want to get on to your faith journey, (31:37):
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Hearts of Oak: certainly before we finish. (31:43):
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Hearts of Oak: But that media journey, your story is a very personal story. (31:45):
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Hearts of Oak: It's a very vulnerable story. (31:49):
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Hearts of Oak: It's not talking about an issue where you're removed and being a commentator (31:52):
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Hearts of Oak: on something that's different. (31:56):
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Hearts of Oak: You are the story. You're in the midst of that. (31:58):
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Hearts of Oak: Um what has been i mean you've given i (32:02):
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Hearts of Oak: i watch your interview with um uh with jordan (32:06):
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Hearts of Oak: peterson uh and then your interview with michaela much later (32:09):
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Hearts of Oak: on you've given testimony on capitol hill um kind of how is how has that been (32:12):
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Hearts of Oak: like i mean talking to politicians there and raising that was was that the first (32:20):
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Hearts of Oak: time really that they were aware of this issue this story yeah. (32:25):
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Chloe Cole: It's kind of crazy, actually, considering that people have been trying to sound (32:30):
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Chloe Cole: the allure about this issue for decades, several decades by this point. (32:34):
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Chloe Cole: This practice of abusing gender-confused children has been going on in the U.S. (32:39):
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Chloe Cole: Since, I believe, at least like the mid-90s to early 2000s. (32:44):
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Chloe Cole: And yet, most of the public was just not informed or even aware that this was (32:48):
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Chloe Cole: something that was happening until really just the last decade, (32:53):
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Chloe Cole: if even the last half decade. (32:57):
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Chloe Cole: It unfortunately took the stories of real people who have been incredibly hurt by this. (33:00):
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Chloe Cole: The detransitioners, the desisters who narrowly escaped mentalization, (33:08):
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Chloe Cole: especially the children who've been harmed by this, the parents, (33:13):
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Chloe Cole: the families, and of course the wonderful whistleblowers who have seen this (33:17):
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Chloe Cole: and their practices and have bravely spoken out about it. (33:21):
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Chloe Cole: And I wasn't the first person to publicly speak out about this. (33:24):
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Chloe Cole: There were a few women who came before me, but unfortunately many of them (33:30):
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Chloe Cole: The spotlights and the severe bullying, the harassment that came their way, (33:37):
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Chloe Cole: was something that they just couldn't handle, understandably. (33:45):
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Chloe Cole: But I knew from pretty much the very beginning of my detransition that I wanted (33:54):
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Chloe Cole: to speak out in some capacity. (34:00):
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Chloe Cole: I knew I wanted to sue my doctors, but I didn't think it possible. (34:03):
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Chloe Cole: I just wanted to get my voice out there. And the community of older detransiters (34:07):
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Chloe Cole: had taken me under their wing at that time, (34:14):
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Chloe Cole: which is really funny considering that they had been burned by transgender people (34:17):
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Chloe Cole: very recently at that point pretending to be detransiters to kind of infiltrate the community. (34:24):
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Chloe Cole: And so they thought that I was one of those people. (34:29):
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Chloe Cole: They thought that I was somebody who was trying to scam them at first. (34:33):
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Chloe Cole: So it took a while for me to eventually get acquainted with them, (34:38):
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Chloe Cole: but they gave me these older detransitioners, these older men and women, (34:43):
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Chloe Cole: gave me the hope that I needed to continue healing. (34:48):
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Chloe Cole: They showed me that I could find a future after transition, even after all these (34:51):
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Chloe Cole: failures that I'd been through in my life, even after all the pain, I could still heal. And (34:55):
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Chloe Cole: I really started to feel for these other men and women. (35:04):
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Chloe Cole: And it was just bothering me how voiceless we were at the time. (35:08):
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Chloe Cole: And I felt like I had a need to just give back to these other people who had (35:13):
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Chloe Cole: helped me, who had given me hope. (35:18):
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Chloe Cole: And also, I knew there were other kids out there who were in my situation because (35:20):
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Chloe Cole: I had seen those other children attending the same seminars about surgery at the hospital. (35:27):
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Chloe Cole: I had seen them in the waiting room with me for the same procedures. (35:34):
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Chloe Cole: I knew that there had to be at least one other kid out there who had regretted (35:38):
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Chloe Cole: this, who had been similarly harmed. (35:44):
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Chloe Cole: And I just felt so compelled to speak. (35:47):
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Chloe Cole: And at first, it started with me starting an account on X back when it was called (35:51):
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Chloe Cole: Twitter, back before the bird was freed and it became a free speech platform. (35:57):
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Chloe Cole: And I had like thousands of followers almost overnight. It was kind of insane. (36:02):
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Chloe Cole: I remember waking up one day and being like, why is the author of the Harry (36:08):
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Chloe Cole: Potter series following me? This is crazy. (36:12):
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Chloe Cole: All of these crazy people who I thought would never know me in my entire life, (36:14):
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Chloe Cole: now they're speaking to me. I'm having news publications reaching out to me. (36:19):
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Chloe Cole: I had a journalist actually very early on. (36:26):
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Chloe Cole: She had come to my house and me, my mom and dad had spoken with her personally. (36:30):
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Chloe Cole: And then I started being asked to speak on legislation across the country, (36:34):
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Chloe Cole: which my mom and dad were, they were very wary of because I was still a kid. (36:38):
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Chloe Cole: I was very stunted from everything I had been through. (36:43):
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Chloe Cole: Very, very freshly traumatized. And I was their baby. (36:47):
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Chloe Cole: They didn't want me to go out into the world just on my own into a potentially (36:51):
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Chloe Cole: unsafe political environment on a contentious issue. (36:55):
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Chloe Cole: But thank God they said yes, because it led to everything that's happened from (36:59):
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Chloe Cole: here on out happening so quickly and so amazingly. (37:06):
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Chloe Cole: And it's quite funny because... (37:09):
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Chloe Cole: At the time that I started speaking publicly, and I started speaking on all (37:14):
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Chloe Cole: this different legislation and with different news networks and across the country, (37:18):
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Chloe Cole: because I had never even dreamed of doing such a thing. (37:23):
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Chloe Cole: I was such a shy kid. (37:27):
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Chloe Cole: I was known as the quiet kid. In a lot of my classes, I would just draw and (37:31):
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Chloe Cole: just politely keep to myself, unless I was with people who I really trusted and was friends with. (37:36):
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Chloe Cole: And i i spent a lot of my days just (37:43):
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Chloe Cole: like playing video games and staying in (37:46):
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Chloe Cole: my room and not really interacting a whole lot with the outside world all day (37:49):
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Chloe Cole: so this was a complete jump for me and i (37:52):
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Chloe Cole: was learning how to socialize how to speak publicly (37:55):
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Chloe Cole: which is a whole another step ahead of of (38:00):
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Chloe Cole: just normal socialization in a (38:03):
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Chloe Cole: basically complete trial by fire um but (38:06):
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Chloe Cole: i think i've been doing pretty well over the over (38:10):
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Chloe Cole: the past few years and learning and it's (38:13):
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Chloe Cole: helped me a lot personally to be able to repurpose the pain that I went through (38:17):
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Chloe Cole: that my mom and dad and my family went through with me into a force for the (38:23):
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Chloe Cole: greater good to connect with so many other women and men in my situation, (38:28):
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Chloe Cole: the parents, the families, the doctors, (38:33):
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Chloe Cole: and lawyers like Harmeet Dillon, and just so many wonderful people who have (38:37):
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Chloe Cole: helped make the culture and the country a better place. (38:48):
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Chloe Cole: And to be a small part of that, it's just so humbling, and I really couldn't ask for any better. (38:52):
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Hearts of Oak: I want to get on this issue of faith to finish, because I think when I first (39:01):
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Hearts of Oak: came across you, I was thinking, how can a 17 or 18-year-old have gone through (39:05):
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Hearts of Oak: that and be speaking so publicly? (39:10):
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Hearts of Oak: She must be a fraud or must have made this up. There's no way. (39:15):
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Hearts of Oak: And then I read about this crazy story of you encountering God. (39:18):
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Hearts of Oak: And you think, okay, that maybe explains it, that if you've got God with you, (39:25):
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Hearts of Oak: and Jesus will meet you at whatever point you're at, at your lowest point, (39:30):
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Hearts of Oak: wherever, he will come and meet you. (39:34):
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Hearts of Oak: And when I read a little bit about actually that moment of meeting God, (39:36):
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Hearts of Oak: it was like, okay, this adds up. This all makes sense. (39:42):
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Hearts of Oak: Can you share a little bit about that? Because it's a powerful experience and (39:45):
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Hearts of Oak: whatever that kind of Damascus Road experience is, each of us who follow God (39:52):
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Hearts of Oak: have a experience somewhere. (39:57):
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Hearts of Oak: And yours is a crazy one. Do you want to share that a. (40:00):
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Chloe Cole: Little bit with us? Yeah, and I think I'm really grateful that you asked that, (40:03):
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Chloe Cole: actually, because I feel like that's probably the most important piece of the puzzle here. (40:07):
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Chloe Cole: My mom and dad, even though they both were raised Christian, (40:13):
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Chloe Cole: they didn't really raise me with that same faith or those same values. (40:17):
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Chloe Cole: And i'm not really sure where exactly that comes from but i think that they (40:25):
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Chloe Cole: have been been burned personally um in in the church and in their own spiritual (40:29):
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Chloe Cole: journey in different ways and they also have my dad's personally has told me (40:35):
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Chloe Cole: before like we wanted to give you the chance to (40:42):
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Chloe Cole: maybe develop some of your own views, your own worldview. (40:45):
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Chloe Cole: And we don't want to push any sort of belief system on you, which I think is (40:51):
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Chloe Cole: a very common sentiment amongst parents today. (40:57):
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Chloe Cole: But what they don't realize is that this actually causes a hole in the child's (41:00):
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Chloe Cole: life and the most important part of their life. (41:05):
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Chloe Cole: If you, your child is going to stumble. (41:08):
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Chloe Cole: Your child is going to be confused and they're not going to be properly guarded (41:12):
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Chloe Cole: against the world if you don't give them that spiritual armor. (41:16):
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Chloe Cole: And that definitely was the case for me. And I think that's really the core (41:21):
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Chloe Cole: of the confusion that I went through with myself, with my identity, (41:25):
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Chloe Cole: with the world around me, throughout a lot of, throughout most of my childhood and my adolescence. (41:29):
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Chloe Cole: I was just trying to orient myself in the world and figure out what is it that I believe? (41:37):
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Chloe Cole: What do I believe the reason is for my existence? (41:45):
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Chloe Cole: Why am I here? Why was I made the way that I am? Why is it so difficult? (41:50):
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Chloe Cole: And eventually, my transition sort of took the place of that. (41:57):
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Chloe Cole: It manifested into a religion of its own over time. (42:05):
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Chloe Cole: It filled the gaps where the lack of identity and understanding in Christ was. (42:08):
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Chloe Cole: And I almost, in a way, became a god of my own. (42:17):
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Chloe Cole: I got to control reality. I got to control my body. (42:23):
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Chloe Cole: I got to control my development into adulthood and the way that other people (42:27):
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Chloe Cole: would see me and speak of me. (42:33):
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Chloe Cole: But it wasn't reality. I was living at a very young age with the weight of lying (42:35):
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Chloe Cole: every single day of my life. (42:45):
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Chloe Cole: And it was killing me physically, mentally, and spiritually. (42:51):
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Chloe Cole: I became unrecognizable as a person by the end of my transition and it just, (42:57):
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Chloe Cole: it almost completely destroyed me. (43:04):
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Chloe Cole: I was so close to taking my own life. I didn't think that I had a reason to live anymore. (43:07):
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Chloe Cole: I could barely even see myself as a human being. I just hated myself so much (43:15):
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Chloe Cole: and I thought, if there is a God out there, he must absolutely hate me. (43:19):
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Chloe Cole: He must have created me for pain, for suffering. (43:24):
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Chloe Cole: And I don't want to live this way anymore. (43:30):
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Chloe Cole: I think the fact that I was able to come to, (43:34):
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Chloe Cole: that I was able to detransition, was a miracle in itself. (43:40):
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Chloe Cole: And it was something that happened And after a series of different trials and (43:46):
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Chloe Cole: tribulations post-surgery for me, it took about 11 months from surgery for me (43:50):
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Chloe Cole: to realize every single part of this was a mistake, that it was killing me, (43:55):
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Chloe Cole: that I couldn't go on any further. (43:58):
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Chloe Cole: And a big part of that epiphany was realizing that I was perfect the way that (44:02):
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Chloe Cole: I was. And also one day I wanted to become a mother, to become a wife, (44:08):
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Chloe Cole: to live a very feminine lifestyle. (44:13):
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Chloe Cole: And I didn't really have the means of explaining why at the time but I just (44:16):
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Chloe Cole: felt so compelled to do those things that felt like that was the reason why (44:21):
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Chloe Cole: I was born to become a feminine strong woman and eventually a wife and a mother one day (44:27):
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Chloe Cole: And now that's something that I believe is I very strongly am compelled to believe (44:36):
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Chloe Cole: is God's plan for me one day (44:42):
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Chloe Cole: My spiritual journey, my acceptance of Christ into my heart and my life was (44:46):
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Chloe Cole: not something that happened immediately after my transition, (44:52):
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Chloe Cole: and it wasn't the motivation for me to stop. (44:55):
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Chloe Cole: It was something that I never had really thought about until I started speaking (45:00):
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Chloe Cole: out publicly, actually. (45:05):
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Chloe Cole: And I started to reconnect with some friends who were very strong in their faith and make many more. (45:07):
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Chloe Cole: And before I was even a Christian, I was invited by very kind pastors and very (45:14):
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Chloe Cole: kind churches to talk about my testimony to their congregations. (45:19):
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Chloe Cole: And it was the love of these other Christians, these other, not just pastors (45:28):
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Chloe Cole: and priests and people working in churches, but also normal, (45:34):
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Chloe Cole: everyday Christians who were strong in their faiths. (45:39):
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Chloe Cole: Helping to lead me to Christ, sharing the gospel with me, showing a love to (45:43):
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Chloe Cole: me that I had never really ever seen before. (45:49):
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Chloe Cole: It all eventually led to me questioning my own faith. (45:53):
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Chloe Cole: And looking at the history of my life and all the difficulties I had been the (46:02):
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Chloe Cole: last few years in a light. (46:09):
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Chloe Cole: In the context of the life of Christ. In a biblical context. And. (46:13):
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Chloe Cole: What was really powerful for me, I think the most transformative thing for me, (46:24):
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Chloe Cole: was the realization that everything that I had been through was for a purpose. (46:28):
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Chloe Cole: I didn't suffer just to suffer. God gave me these trials because he knew that (46:36):
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Chloe Cole: through him, I could get through it. (46:44):
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Chloe Cole: I could become a stronger woman and eventually use it to help others. (46:48):
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Chloe Cole: And I think my faith in Christ has healed me more than anything in my life. (47:00):
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Chloe Cole: It was the greatest decision that I made, Even greater than my decision to stop (47:11):
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Chloe Cole: my transition, to stop the single biggest hurdle in my spiritual life. (47:16):
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Chloe Cole: And I feel every day that I'm becoming more and more of a transformed woman. (47:24):
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Hearts of Oak: That is a perfect point to finish it on, Chloe. (47:31):
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Hearts of Oak: That is, and I'd love to delve into it deeper. We'll do it another time. (47:35):
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Hearts of Oak: Simon, I know the viewers and listeners, if they're not fun, (47:40):
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Hearts of Oak: you'll want to follow you and post what you're putting out. (47:43):
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Hearts of Oak: But I think even more importantly, I'd encourage the viewers and listeners to (47:47):
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Hearts of Oak: pray for you as you continue speaking truth, as you continue speaking up for (47:52):
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Hearts of Oak: those who are maybe caught up in this. And your actions. (47:57):
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