Kellie-Jay Keen - Let Women Speak: A Global Fight for Common Sense

Kellie-Jay Keen, known as "Posy Parker," discusses her activism on gender identity and women's rights, highlighting her controversial "Adult Human Female" billboard campaign. She shares her journey into activism following political changes in 2015 and the backlash she faced, revealing political reticence on defining womanhood. Kellie emphasizes the need for women to reclaim their voices through her organization, "Let Women Speak," and addresses the importance of activism in countering the aggressive pushback from the trans lobby. She calls for greater support from men in the fight for women's rights.

 

Connect with Kellie. . . WEBSITE                          https://www.letwomenspeak.org/ 𝕏                                      https://x.com/ThePosieParker LET WOMAN SPEAK       https://www.partyofwomen.org/ YOUTUBE                        Kellie-Jay Keen - YouTube

 

Connect with Hearts of Oak... 𝕏                         x.com/HeartsofOakUK WEBSITE            heartsofoak.org/ PODCASTS        heartsofoak.podbean.com/ SOCIAL MEDIA  heartsofoak.org/connect/ SHOP                  heartsofoak.org/shop/

*Special thanks to Bosch Fawstin for recording our intro/outro on this podcast.

Check out his art theboschfawstinstore.blogspot.com and follow him on 𝕏 x.com/TheBoschFawstin

 

Episode Transcript

Hearts of Oak: And hello, Hearts of Vogue. Thanks so much for joining us once again. (00:23):
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Hearts of Oak: And I'm delighted to have a fearless campaigner who kind of I've followed back (00:27):
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Hearts of Oak: in the day in 2018, whenever she put up that infamous poster up at the Labour Party conference. (00:34):
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Hearts of Oak: But there's a lot to follow from that. And that is Kelly J. (00:39):
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Hearts of Oak: Keane. Kelly J., thank you so much for your time today. (00:43):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: Oh, thank you for having me. (00:46):
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Hearts of Oak: Great to have you um and your handle there (00:47):
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Hearts of Oak: is the posy parker uh which is also (00:50):
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Hearts of Oak: posy parker name that many of you will be familiar on (00:53):
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Hearts of Oak: uh on social media um but there are lots maybe if we can go back a little bit (00:57):
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Hearts of Oak: obviously you have behind you adult uh human female or adult human male but (01:03):
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Hearts of Oak: we can depend which side you cover up so you would either but um i just want (01:08):
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Hearts of Oak: to bring up the poster So maybe a lot of the, (01:13):
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Hearts of Oak: maybe our US audience may be less familiar. (01:15):
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Hearts of Oak: The UK audience, I think, will be very familiar with your work on standing up (01:17):
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Hearts of Oak: for women, especially in the onslaught of the trans lobby that we have faced (01:23):
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Hearts of Oak: over the last many years. (01:30):
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Hearts of Oak: But here is the BBC article, Women Billboard Removed After Transphobia Row, (01:31):
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Hearts of Oak: and that's women, adult, human, female. (01:39):
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Hearts of Oak: Maybe give us a little bit of your background before, and then we'll get on (01:42):
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Hearts of Oak: to what made you want to put up a billboard like that outside the Labour Party conference. (01:46):
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Hearts of Oak: But kind of give us a little bit of your background up until that point. (01:52):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: Well, I was a stay-at-home mother of four children, and that's kind of my background. (01:56):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: Went to uni, started work, met my husband, and then once I had my first baby, (02:02):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: I never went back to work. (02:09):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: And I was just quite happy until about (02:10):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: 2015 when I found that I might (02:14):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: have heard about it back 2014 but 2015 the Conservatives (02:17):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: got elected I was on the left I had no (02:21):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: idea that that that was going to happen that we were going (02:24):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: to outright elect a Conservative Party government (02:26):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: we did I joined on online forums (02:30):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: and then I found this particular topic of (02:33):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: pretending men can be women and that you weren't (02:37):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: allowed to talk about it so as soon as that happened i was then i was really (02:40):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: switched on to it it was it was a bit kind of that's not happening i'm that (02:45):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: that can't happen i won't let it happen and i i guess i sort of accidentally became an activist to. (02:50):
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Hearts of Oak: Put up a billboard like that takes um well it takes a lot of (02:57):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: Guts and obviously you you have. (03:01):
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Hearts of Oak: That um obviously takes planning, I guess if you put up kind of billboards, (03:02):
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Hearts of Oak: you go to one of the companies and you say, I want to put 100 or 200 or 1,000 or whatever, (03:09):
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Hearts of Oak: you stuck up one on a specific spot. (03:15):
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Hearts of Oak: What led you to thinking this is a good idea? (03:18):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: So, I think I just thought, look, most people don't know what's going on. (03:23):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: So, as soon as they find out what's going on, then they'll all say, (03:27):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: well, that's ridiculous. Let's just put an end to it right now. Like, I was quite naive. (03:30):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: And so, I looked at, so my first job out of uni, I was involved in media and marketing. (03:37):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: And I didn't stay in it for very long because I met my husband and we had babies (03:44):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: within, like, about three years. (03:49):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: So um i just (03:50):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: thought oh let's have a look at the times let's have (03:54):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: a look at like a middle plate like a double page spread or (03:56):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: something in the times big advert and it (03:59):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: was sort of 20 to 40 thousand and i thought well i don't have that and then (04:02):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: i found out and then i looked at buses that was also really expensive um and (04:07):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: then i found out that a billboard a paper billboard was uh 900 pounds like including (04:12):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: VAT it was 900 pounds and I thought well I think I can do that, (04:18):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: if I sell t-shirts and merch and I thought well. (04:22):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: The word woman is the thing, right? So it's what's being erased. (04:28):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: Well, you know, if you take the word woman, if you erase it, (04:34):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: dilute it, and it ceases to mean what we all know it to mean, (04:38):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: which is adult human female, then we'll become unstuck. (04:41):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: We'll become untethered from the reality of what living, like being a woman is. (04:47):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: And so that was what it was going (04:52):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: to be. And then I've got a bit of an instinct for marketing, I think. (04:56):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: So I knew that if you, I wanted it to be black and white because I wanted it to be very simple. (05:00):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: I also thought it was going to be cheaper if it was black and white, (05:05):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: to be honest. So that was like a, I don't think it would have been. (05:07):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: But it used to be that if you just did a black and white advert, (05:11):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: they were a lot cheaper than a color one. (05:13):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: So I realized that if you did white with black, it wasn't half as impactful (05:16):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: as black background with white writing. (05:21):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: And then i had to find the the phonetic kind of way of spelling the word woman (05:24):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: so that led me to just searching through online dictionary definitions to find (05:29):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: one with the phonetic woman, (05:36):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: and i found the google one and so i think a lot of dictionaries at the time (05:38):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: would have said adult adult female person or adult female human and the one (05:43):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: i could use um was adult um human female And so then that became the rallying cry. So I put it up. (05:49):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: After about a week, they complained and they took it down. And it became a story. (05:56):
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Hearts of Oak: Tell us about because the headline, the BBC headline, of course, (06:02):
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Hearts of Oak: Transphobia Row, you had groups saying you were part of some hit group. (06:06):
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Hearts of Oak: I mean, what was going through your mind? Because you're thinking you're just (06:14):
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Hearts of Oak: putting up the bleeding obvious. (06:18):
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Hearts of Oak: You're just stating what is common sense. How is this hateful, (06:20):
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Hearts of Oak: just explaining what a woman is? (06:24):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: Well, to be honest, that was, I mean, one of the reasons of putting it up was (06:28):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: to get the backlash from the trans activists and the idiots. (06:32):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: That was part and parcel of the whole thing. We knew that they would make it (06:38):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: first. That's why you just need one because you've got social media. (06:43):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: So one, you might as well have 100 of them across the country if you've got (06:46):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: one and it goes online and they start complaining about it. (06:49):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: But for a week, like nobody was saying anything. I was (06:52):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: like oh my goodness it's it's going (06:55):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: to be a wasted it's wasted money and it was it was somewhere that (06:58):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: you wouldn't have seen the billboard and then really luckily (07:00):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: Primesite who was the owner of the billboard space they actually put a tweet (07:04):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: up celebrating like small and medium enterprises and them using their their (07:09):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: sort of outdoor advertising space and then the the activist retweeted and started (07:15):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: writing to board members and so on. (07:22):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: So, you know, they really did my work for me, which is kind of how the last seven years have been. (07:24):
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Hearts of Oak: Tell me maybe the first thing it was, it was a Labour Party conference, wasn't it? (07:30):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: Yes. (07:35):
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Hearts of Oak: Yeah. So, okay, political response. Let's maybe look at that and then we'll (07:36):
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Hearts of Oak: talk about all your kind of personal experiences standing up for this common (07:41):
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Hearts of Oak: sense issue of what gender really means. (07:47):
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Hearts of Oak: But what was their response from Labour usage, Eurotrition on the left, (07:49):
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Hearts of Oak: the Conservatives have traditionally, (07:55):
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Hearts of Oak: supposedly would have stood up for, against the nonsense of the trans movement, (07:59):
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Hearts of Oak: but they've been, for over 14 years, they were complicit in bringing in this (08:03):
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Hearts of Oak: nonsense, was a plague on both houses. (08:08):
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Hearts of Oak: But were there different responses from different political groups? (08:10):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: Um well i i asked maria miller (08:16):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: who was a minute who was a minister for women um (08:19):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: inequalities i asked her what was (08:22):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: a woman at a conservative uh women's (08:26):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: lunch to celebrate a hundred years of (08:29):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: conservative women and she was too frightened to answer (08:32):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: in fact she gave a terrible answer and the conservatives wanted to (08:35):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: bring through self-id um but the (08:38):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: labor groups and labor members I mean I was only (08:41):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: in the left wing groups but I got kicked out of all of them I used (08:44):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: to ask a question um does my (08:47):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: 11 year old daughter have the right to use a female only changing (08:51):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: room and not see an adult penis now for me (08:54):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: that's a that's a that's an easy question that's a gotcha question that's a (08:56):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: ha well they're not women then are they but actually I was told that my daughter (09:00):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: was transphobic and I was a pervert and why were we staring at genitals um and (09:04):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: I don't I think The Conservatives just didn't want to know anything about it. (09:10):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: They were just quite happy to talk about silly things like trans rights, (09:14):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: which for me, when I hear somebody talk about trans rights, I hear someone wanting (09:20):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: to sterilize children and put men and women in spaces. (09:25):
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Hearts of Oak: Tell me a little bit about what the activism has been, some of the things you've learned. (09:30):
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Hearts of Oak: I mean, I've talked to Chloe Cole on the other week, and I mean, (09:37):
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Hearts of Oak: such a brave individual, but fascinating hearing what she has gone through and (09:43):
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Hearts of Oak: how she speaks up so boldly. (09:47):
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Hearts of Oak: Talk to Jeff Younger about his child in California, and you begin to hear some (09:50):
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Hearts of Oak: of the personal stories, and they're heartbreaking. (09:55):
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Hearts of Oak: But then there's also the the overall story (09:58):
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Hearts of Oak: that you're trying to put out to to catch as many people and pursue as many (10:02):
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Hearts of Oak: people what's right and wrong but tell us a little bit about that those seven (10:06):
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Hearts of Oak: years of your activism journey um and some of the things you've learned some (10:11):
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Hearts of Oak: of the surprises on the way i've (10:16):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: Learned that um i've learned that women on the left and women who call themselves (10:19):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: feminists are probably amongst the most awful women that I've ever encountered. (10:23):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: And I don't think I knew that. (10:29):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: But ironically, their behavior is stereotypically kind of female toxic behavior. (10:32):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: So if you think about the worst of all women, that's them. (10:38):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: So I've learned that. I've learned that envy is incredibly powerful. (10:41):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: And I've learnt that the police. (10:48):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: Consistently blame women for speaking up as opposed to the people that speak (10:52):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: against us I mean I've had the full range some of the things I can't talk about (10:57):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: I won't be able to talk about for many many years that have happened to myself and my family, (11:02):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: and there'll be complicated reasons for that there are some campaigns of harassment (11:09):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: that have lasted for sort of eight years, (11:14):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: that still aren't sorted. (11:18):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: There have been personal costs that, again, I can't talk about. (11:20):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: I thought I was going to lose my life in New Zealand and that was when I did (11:25):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: an event in Auckland and there were thousands upon thousands. (11:31):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: I think there were a couple of thousands. I mean, some people say three. (11:36):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: Some people say two. I haven't counted, but there was a very large mob and the (11:39):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: police failed to show up until I was right on the edge of that. (11:43):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: And I found out, one thing I found out, that when you're in... (11:50):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: Danger that the thing you do is the only things (11:56):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: you can do so the only things I could do is put one foot in front of (11:59):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: the other and that becomes really important and that's something that (12:01):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: you really focus on and I guess we all kind of (12:04):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: know from other people's accounts that that's what (12:07):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: happens but it's amazing like you can't (12:10):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: even really hear people or you might hear an individual voice from sort of 20 (12:13):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: people away but you don't necessarily hear the the whole voice um so yeah i (12:18):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: mean i i sometimes think about everything that's happened to me, (12:25):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: and it is quite extraordinary that basically i (12:32):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: was just a woman who started selling tickets stickers and (12:35):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: t-shirts um in 2018 and (12:38):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: and tweeted a bit and has ended up probably being (12:41):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: banned more than anybody else that I (12:44):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: know of um and I've (12:47):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: been interviewed three times by the police I've been arrested once I (12:50):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: had the police at my door for being untoward about pedophiles you know I'm just (12:54):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: a I'm just an ordinary woman and I think what we've seen over the last especially (12:57):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: with immigration or migration whatever we want to call it what we've seen is (13:02):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: actually the police are quite happy to go against ordinary citizens with genuine concerns. (13:06):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: The police are quite happy to control or try to control us because we're quite law-abiding people. (13:12):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: We just get to a point where we're like, up with this, I will not put. (13:18):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: But, I mean, if you're a terrible person, you can get away with loads of things. (13:24):
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Hearts of Oak: I think we found out the police, their role used to be, we grew up thinking (13:30):
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Hearts of Oak: the police were there to enforce the law, right and wrong, but really it's there (13:35):
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Hearts of Oak: just to keep the peace and whatever that means. (13:39):
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Hearts of Oak: And obviously they see or have seen at a number of events, they've seen you (13:43):
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Hearts of Oak: as the problem, despite the fact that (13:47):
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Hearts of Oak: you're not saying anything wrong and therefore they have to remove you. (13:49):
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Hearts of Oak: We see that in many situations. If something the media tell us is controversial, (13:53):
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Hearts of Oak: then the person who is part of some part of that controversy, they must be removed. (13:58):
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Hearts of Oak: And you probably find that a number of times. (14:04):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: Oh yeah yeah I have it's it's (14:07):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: very odd I mean I work with the we work (14:10):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: with the police and we we have um a woman called Iris who is brilliant with (14:13):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: the police and then I I'll have a sort of a charming chat with them and I don't (14:18):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: look I really respected the police I don't I think I still respect many officers (14:23):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: I think a lot of people joined the police or certainly did a long (14:28):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: time ago um but they joined the (14:32):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: police because they genuinely believed in the rule of law and (14:34):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: they wanted to make this country a better place and they felt that joining the (14:37):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: police was a way to do it clearly in all large organizations you have some awful (14:40):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: people um but some things happen to the police force where it's like i'd rather (14:45):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: be frightened of the police and then occasionally get. (14:53):
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Hearts of Oak: It wrong than (14:56):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: People not being frightened of the police like (14:57):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: there's there's just there's something (15:00):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: that's happened I don't know what it is I don't know when it happened but (15:03):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: there was it must have been a tipping point where we went from you know (15:06):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: some police were terrible you know a bit Gene Huntish I'm sure um but now they (15:09):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: they've got no teeth like they they don't seem to be able to do like accompanying (15:16):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: you saw it in Epping but we've had it many times where the police are escorted the TRAs, (15:21):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: who sort of talk about punching us, (15:27):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: they escort these people to us. (15:30):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: And I just, I don't even get it, this kind of right to protest. (15:33):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: Well, should that include the right to be escorted by the police? (15:36):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: And we found that there isn't much pushback. (15:42):
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Hearts of Oak: I think a lot of people may be questioning the police, certainly during the (15:45):
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Hearts of Oak: COVID tyranny, and what they meted out to individuals who were law-abiding citizens. (15:48):
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Hearts of Oak: But I think we've realized there's little you can push back. (15:54):
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Hearts of Oak: If the police have decided something, then you go to the courts, (15:59):
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Hearts of Oak: and the courts aren't necessarily on your side, because a lot of politicized judges. (16:03):
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Hearts of Oak: So I think, yeah, people kind of somehow throw their arms up and think, (16:08):
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Hearts of Oak: um I either I've changed or the police changed because I grew up trusting them (16:11):
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Hearts of Oak: and now I don't trust them at all (16:16):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: Yeah I mean I've I'm not gonna lie I've encountered so many really decent, (16:18):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: authoritative police officers that that I (16:26):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: I really do trust and they have on occasion they've really (16:29):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: looked after me um but I wonder (16:32):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: whether they would if I wasn't kind of (16:35):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: quite well known have a certain sort (16:37):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: of following and I don't mean I'm well known like most people (16:40):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: I walk down the street they have no idea who I am at all but if you know you (16:43):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: know and I have a big enough following that if something happened to me somebody's (16:47):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: going to be embarrassed there's going to be some sort of pushback and also I (16:51):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: personally would would push back so um but you know still some pretty brilliant police officers, (16:55):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: I just think they are they are policing this country (17:03):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: with two hands tied behind their backs and I don't think it's sometimes it is (17:06):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: the occasional officer you know if you've got an officer who comes to work dressed (17:11):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: as a woman and he's a man then the whole force is screwed because nobody can (17:15):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: you can never again talk about that kind of, (17:20):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: the fetish of it or however you want to talk about that that it's a danger in (17:25):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: policing you can't you can't do that anymore when when that person's in the force tell. (17:29):
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Hearts of Oak: I want to get your thoughts on the media because i remember was (17:35):
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Hearts of Oak: it new zealand where they um where they (17:38):
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Hearts of Oak: said that you had uh some nazi supporters (17:41):
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Hearts of Oak: at your rally and you look into and you think wow how (17:44):
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Hearts of Oak: low can you go to come up with a story which is just not true but literally (17:48):
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Hearts of Oak: is about a narrative that you want to push what have been your experiences of (17:54):
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Hearts of Oak: the media in terms of actually supporting you or trying to demonize you well (18:00):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: The daily mail in the uk has always been pretty nice the daily (18:06):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: mail in australia was terrible terrible terrible (18:09):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: named my family like my (18:13):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: kids um was awful uh the (18:16):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: times is always been all right I mean there's there's been a (18:19):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: concerted effort to ignore me um and (18:22):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: favor the more I wouldn't call them (18:26):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: moderate I would call them compromising the compromises um (18:29):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: in this side of the debate so the (18:33):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: press might prefer those uh Janice Turner she (18:36):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: doesn't like me like there's a lot of people that don't like me which is (18:40):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: fine the worst I think was New Zealand where I was i was talking on a live stream (18:42):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: and i was messing with like say it was my i was messing with my zip and i did (18:50):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: that and they blurred out my hand and then put the story out that i was doing. (18:55):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: Whatever that 4chan thing is is it white power or nazi or something i don't (19:03):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: know um but they said that i was i was doing that and that was before i'd arrived (19:09):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: in new zealand I mean, that was, that was nuts to be, (19:13):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: to be a woman clearly who just started doing these t-shirts because I didn't (19:18):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: like what was going on and, um, and then things grow. (19:23):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: And then sometimes I just, I just pause and I'm like, whole of a media in another (19:27):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: country is saying these things about me, is making up stuff about me as if I'm important. (19:33):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: Like, why do you make up stuff about someone who's unimportant? (19:39):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: You just don't bother covering them. (19:42):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: But there was a high court injunction to try and stop me getting into New Zealand. (19:44):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: I can't get a visa to Australia anymore or Canada. (19:48):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: For what? I've never committed a crime. I've never been caught. (19:54):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: No, but I've never committed a crime. And I'm a pretty decent citizen. (19:58):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: And my kids have never committed a crime and my husband hasn't. (20:04):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: I don't come from a bad family. (20:08):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: And yet, just for saying what we all know to be true, I am literally banned from countries. (20:10):
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Hearts of Oak: What is it like having someone like jk ruling standing up for this issue you (20:20):
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Hearts of Oak: kind of i guess there are points of this you end up scratching your head and (20:25):
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Hearts of Oak: you're thinking seriously has that happened well (20:28):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: I i'm really really (20:31):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: grateful i think she's amazing i think this fight (20:34):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: is all the better for her in it but i'm (20:37):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: not gonna lie in 2015 2016 2017 i (20:40):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: was genuinely thinking where are for women (20:44):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: with big platforms so i'm you know we're all very grateful that jk rowling um (20:47):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: joined the fight but um there are so many other women that haven't i'm actually (20:53):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: i think i'm probably more scratching my head at why are the rest so silent what (20:59):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: sort of what a bunch of cowards. (21:05):
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Hearts of Oak: Have you had people come to you silently because i (21:08):
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Hearts of Oak: i know in different areas i i've worked (21:11):
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Hearts of Oak: with Lord Pearson for like over 10 years and he (21:15):
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Hearts of Oak: very vocal on Islam and women being (21:18):
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Hearts of Oak: treated in Islam and looking at the grooming gangs and turning a blind eye and (21:21):
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Hearts of Oak: he often is people in the chamber who will come to him and say well done thank (21:25):
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Hearts of Oak: you for saying that I couldn't possibly say that and just utter cowardice what's (21:30):
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Hearts of Oak: it been like for you have you had people in maybe positions in (21:35):
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Hearts of Oak: media politics come to you to sign say well done but they are just afraid to speak themselves (21:39):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: I think we get that all the time but I'm not really networking or seeking to (21:45):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: network with those people. (21:51):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: I've really made it my business to try and stretch the Overton window and to (21:55):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: encourage other women to speak up about all aspects of their lives. (21:59):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: It's not necessarily out of the most compassionate thing. It (22:04):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: just annoys me that people have things going on (22:07):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: in their lives and then they don't deal with it talk about it say (22:10):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: it um and so what I (22:13):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: hope Let Women Speak does is genuinely create the (22:16):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: spaces in which women can speak so I I mean I think early on I probably had (22:19):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: a few um emails or people say thank you but I don't actually I'm not seeking (22:24):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: to sit at nice tables with women with comfortable shoes um that's not really (22:30):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: been uh what I've done and so, (22:35):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: I don't know I don't they don't contact me perhaps I'm just not that approachable to those people. (22:39):
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Hearts of Oak: Let let's let women speak what um (22:46):
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Hearts of Oak: people going to it they can obviously um buy (22:49):
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Hearts of Oak: some merchandise they can sign up and what why (22:52):
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Hearts of Oak: should people become part of that what (22:55):
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Hearts of Oak: role does the individual play because sometimes i think (22:58):
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Hearts of Oak: individuals we can think this is just too big an issue it's gone too far we (23:01):
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Hearts of Oak: just have to accept the status quo if this is so crap but actually being part (23:05):
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Hearts of Oak: of let women speak and other organizations mean they can play their part let (23:10):
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Hearts of Oak: the kind of audience know why they should be part of that (23:15):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: Well look we started genuine (23:18):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: grassroots so we started off um meeting (23:21):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: at speaker's corner and then i realized that the women all over the (23:25):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: country couldn't get there so we started going elsewhere and (23:27):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: the format is really genuine (23:31):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: and it hasn't changed which is why it works (23:34):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: and that is you come along nobody cares. (23:37):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: About your politics I mean I'd rather people didn't come along with (23:41):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: like banners about what their politics are um (23:44):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: because I think that takes away from the whole nature (23:47):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: of the whole thing like when October the (23:50):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: 7th happened I just I (23:53):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: just thought no I'm not gonna let that I'm (23:56):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: not gonna let that wreck it and I think it would change it for me (24:00):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: if somebody came up with a gaza palestine thing i (24:02):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: think i would i would find personally that (24:05):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: would really stretch my patience on whether (24:08):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: or not i i felt and i i did just say (24:11):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: then that no political symbols just none don't (24:14):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: come with it don't come with signs of division only come (24:17):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: with an intention to unify um so (24:20):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: they they come along um these women and (24:25):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: and i i just ask anyone who (24:28):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: doesn't know what Let Women Speak is about just watch an episode (24:32):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: of it just watch one of the meetings because we'll (24:35):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: get someone it can be something really pedestrian like a woman (24:38):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: in her early 60s goes to Aquafit and she's (24:42):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: probably had kids and maybe she's got grandchildren but this first thing she's (24:46):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: done for herself and it's the only the only exercise she's getting as she's (24:49):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: in that that age bracket and then she can't go anymore because there's a man in the changing fit. (24:53):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: And so what happens when we do Let Women Speak is there's enough ordinary women who. (25:02):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: Just like her, where she feels she can raise her voice. (25:11):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: And then when she raises her voice and she speaks on the microphone or just speaks, (25:14):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: she will tell a story in her words that reach someone that I can't reach, (25:20):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: no matter how many things I say and how many stories I tell. (25:28):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: She will absolutely, 100%, there will be someone listening that before didn't (25:31):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: feel they could speak up or felt totally alone. and after, they don't. (25:38):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: Like we genuinely liberate women from isolation. (25:43):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: And so the only way I can do that is if I can travel to do it. (25:46):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: I give up quite a lot of my time. I do this full time. (25:51):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: I'm sure my husband thinks I probably should get a job. But I've been doing (25:55):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: it full time since about 2018. (26:00):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: And I think about three or four years, I was still thinking it was a bit of a hobby. (26:03):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: And I was just passionate about it. And then I had a friend who said, (26:08):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: well, you do it full time, don't you? (26:13):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: I said, yeah, I think it's a little bit more than a hobby. (26:15):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: And I've, I know that what I've done has had an impact. (26:19):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: I frequently meet people who say that something they heard at Let Women Speak, (26:25):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: you know, might have stopped their daughter from thinking that she was non-binary or a boy. (26:33):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: So we definitely do make a difference but we can't do it on thin air and our (26:38):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: opponents are well funded and well connected and embedded in our institutions (26:43):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: and civil service and everywhere where they shouldn't be so yeah, give us your money. (26:50):
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Hearts of Oak: Well let me bring, that's the front page of the site and people can go (26:57):
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Hearts of Oak: and see what events are happening, the store they (27:03):
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Hearts of Oak: can join they can donate but it's they want (27:06):
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Hearts of Oak: to join five pounds or ten pounds a month and i think (27:09):
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Hearts of Oak: that's key i think sometimes the danger is people consume information they agree (27:12):
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Hearts of Oak: with um but don't necessarily want to pay the price of a coffee um to do that (27:16):
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Hearts of Oak: so um i think it's it's vital that people support you is that maybe the the (27:22):
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Hearts of Oak: best way that people can support the work you do by joining? (27:27):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: Well, actually, well, yeah, they can. (27:31):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: That's phenomenal. That's brilliant. But I sell merchandise with messages. (27:34):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: So it might be stickers or t-shirts or... (27:40):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: Or beer mats, fellow Artois, or not Miguel. (27:45):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: So we sell all types of things, and that does a number of things. (27:50):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: I think we're quite unique in this, and that's most of my funding, (27:54):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: the film I made in America, the trip round to Australia and New Zealand. (27:59):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: All those things were funded by merchandise sales, and that does a couple of things. (28:04):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: Number one, if you don't feel that you can start conversations, (28:10):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: then your t-shirt will do it for you and it will start conversations and (28:13):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: you then feel that you are not strangled by silence (28:17):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: which I think happens when we know you know (28:20):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: when you're at that dinner party and everyone's saying something you're like oh (28:23):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: my god they're all wrong they're all wrong and (28:26):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: they're all repeating the same lies from the same kind of (28:28):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: source well it can it can (28:31):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: almost feel like there's something pressing on your throat and (28:34):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: so that's what the merchandise does and then what you (28:38):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: know with that merchandise not only do you get to say something but (28:40):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: other people get to read it you might actually (28:43):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: find someone who doesn't know about it who then now knows (28:46):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: about it or you might find someone who does but also feels isolated (28:50):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: wherever they live so then they're like oh (28:53):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: there's someone else that knows the truth about this and (28:56):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: isn't afraid to say it and then the other thing you do is you (28:58):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: support an organization who plows every penny (29:01):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: back in to ensuring that more conversations are (29:04):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: created and more women feel that they are not isolated by silence so i think (29:07):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: we have a really good business model um and and it's it's done well so far but (29:12):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: yeah merchandise is is just is a double whammy triple quadruple whammy how. (29:18):
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Hearts of Oak: Do you because it's about let women speak um but uh (29:24):
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Hearts of Oak: with men watching with with fathers half (29:28):
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Hearts of Oak: men watching who are fathers will of girls me (29:31):
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Hearts of Oak: half will not and there's always a concern of what happens (29:34):
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Hearts of Oak: to your uh to your child the impact the the messaging that they hear especially (29:37):
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Hearts of Oak: on on on social media how if their father's watching they've got girls they're (29:42):
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Hearts of Oak: concerned of the messaging that their daughters are receiving how do they connect (29:49):
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Hearts of Oak: in with what you're doing (29:54):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: Well look men are more than welcome (29:55):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: and I don't use silly words like ally but (29:58):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: men are welcome it's their fight too but just (30:01):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: what happens in many many fights when women (30:04):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: and men are involved and this is predominantly women's fault because women will (30:08):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: defer and I just don't want to do that and I feel that women have enough to (30:13):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: say and it's off it's our it's an existential threat to our own language and (30:18):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: our own existence Right. (30:24):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: So that's why that's why I've made it let women speak. (30:25):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: Now, there is something that men can do and it's something that I think men should do. (30:31):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: And if they haven't been doing it already, then they need to as of like now. (30:35):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: Please don't leave it to their wives or the mothers of their children to have (30:41):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: those conversations in schools. (30:44):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: And I'm a pretty forthright woman. I speak in short sentences, (30:46):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: like as short as possible. (30:52):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: And I don't use sort of flowery language. If I'm saying something to you, (30:53):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: you'll pretty much know exactly what I mean. (30:58):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: And even I have had trouble getting things done at school where my children are concerned. (31:02):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: And not necessarily on this issue, because on this issue, I'm I'm I'm really (31:08):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: happy to make adults feel uncomfortable who are looking after children when (31:14):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: they are threatening safeguarding. (31:19):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: But I would say to men, you go and ask for a meeting with the headteacher and (31:22):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: ask to see the resources and the bullying policy and the PSHE and ask that teacher (31:27):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: and look them straight in the face and ask them if they think non-binary is a thing. (31:33):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: Um and and don't (31:36):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: let up and and never be frightened to leave silences I think (31:39):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: that is a really good tactic in communication (31:42):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: when you want someone to tell on themselves as you just leave enough silence (31:45):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: so you need to be the ones to do that you need to be the ones to talk about (31:50):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: um the safety of your mother um or (31:54):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: auntie or grandmother who maybe is in a residential home or needs counsel, (31:58):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: care in her own home, you need to be having those conversations because I think (32:04):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: that something happens when men speak and we'd all love this to be not true, but it's true. (32:08):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: And that is, it is listened to in far more kind of serious ways than when women speak. (32:14):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: So it's kind of men's duty really to have those, those quite powerful, (32:23):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: quiet conversations in which you're trying to protect the women in your family. (32:29):
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Hearts of Oak: Yeah, don't leave it up to the school. That's the most foolish thing to do. (32:36):
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Hearts of Oak: Give us a little bit of snapshot of where we are in the UK. (32:40):
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Hearts of Oak: We've heard a lot about the Tavistock Clinic being shut down but seems to be restarted. (32:45):
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Hearts of Oak: We have schools. Some schools are horrendous in what they teach. (32:51):
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Hearts of Oak: Others are maybe more common sense. (32:55):
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Hearts of Oak: Where kind of are we in the UK in actually protecting women and protecting their spaces at the moment (32:59):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: Where are we well we're in a place where the law has been clarified it didn't (33:09):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: need clarifying the law hasn't changed at all where there was a Supreme Court (33:14):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: ruling where they said well a woman is an adult human female in the Equality Act, (33:18):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: well that was true the day before also that they said that and that was true (33:22):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: from 2010 when they said that. (33:26):
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Hearts of Oak: I mean, Keir Starmer, he didn't really, I mean, on that day, (33:29):
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Hearts of Oak: he then came out and announced. (33:32):
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Hearts of Oak: So he didn't know what it was until that ruling. So I've been confusing. (33:33):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: And we're still in a position as well, post the Supreme Court, (33:38):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: where lots of people are not going along with the Supreme Court ruling. (33:43):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: And so we have an EHRC. We spend 17 to 18 million pounds a year on that, (33:46):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: which is an Equality and Human Rights Commission. and they are the regulator (33:53):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: for our Equality Act 2010. (33:57):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: The Equality Act has protected characteristics in it. It's an absolutely atrocious (34:00):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: bit of legislation. It doesn't really help anyone. (34:05):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: Everyone's got competing rights. So it's religion and beliefs and that's the (34:07):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: freedom from religion and the freedom for religion. (34:12):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: Protected characteristics like we now have one called gender critical, which is a belief that. (34:17):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: Biology matters um uh then (34:25):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: disability rights which i think is a really important section of (34:29):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: rights that deserves its own act i don't think we (34:32):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: need to have that and anyway an abomination called gender identity or gender (34:35):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: reassignment which they used a very vague term of gender reassignment and now (34:38):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: in the guidance that will stretch out to kind of anyone who's ever thought one (34:43):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: day of having a blue fringe you know it's it's absolutely ridiculous um And the EHRC, (34:47):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: as I said, up to £18 million a year budget, and they've only ever intervened (34:53):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: either half-hearted or against women. (35:01):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: So they didn't know the Equality Act and what the legal position of women were in the Equality Act. (35:04):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: So now you're still having women, post this clarification, having to raise tens (35:11):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: of thousands of pounds to go and take whatever organization to court. (35:15):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: Um i i personally complained to someone called bristol women's voice saying (35:21):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: that they weren't they were against the equality act for including men who call (35:25):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: themselves women and saying that it's a women's organization and they've just (35:30):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: come back with a kind of what you're going to do about it have. (35:33):
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Hearts of Oak: You thought on parts of this journey that this is this must be a quick battle (35:38):
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Hearts of Oak: this how this will be over in a couple of months when people see the the stupidity (35:42):
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Hearts of Oak: of it and when you call out the nonsense, this has to be an easy win. (35:47):
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Hearts of Oak: And yet, years later, you're still needed more than ever. (35:52):
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Hearts of Oak: Your voice is still as prevalent because this battle is still in full flow, despite some wins. (35:57):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: A hundred percent. And I'll tell you what makes it very frightening. (36:05):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: The people that are, so there are organizations, there's a broad spectrum of organizations that, (36:07):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: But the ones that have kind of got their feet under the table a little bit, (36:14):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: they are much more compromising than I am. (36:19):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: I said a long time ago, I want to be able to discriminate against a man dressing (36:23):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: up in a fetish in a school. I want him to lose his job. (36:28):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: I want it to be a thing that you have to leave your sexual desires and fantasies (36:32):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: at home when you're teaching children. (36:35):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: The same in a hospital, the same in, you know, right to the NHS. (36:38):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: And in any place of work, actually. (36:43):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: I don't think any woman should have to go to work and be subjected to a man (36:45):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: coming in woman face. It's disgusting. (36:50):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: We wouldn't allow that if it was blackface. It wouldn't be okay if like Derek (36:53):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: down working at Tesco could turn up in blackface because he really felt he was from Africa. (36:57):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: You know, we just wouldn't put up with that nonsense. (37:03):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: And so there is a little bit of a fear that we will settle on a win that isn't (37:06):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: what I would consider a win and will be in the same position in like 20 years (37:11):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: time or 10 years time or whatever. (37:15):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: So I think I have to continue to keep pushing the culture into a recognition (37:19):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: of what's really going on when a man puts a dress on. (37:27):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: And it's not that he genuinely believes in his heart of hearts and in his noble soul that he's female. (37:31):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: As I think we've seen a lot in the Sandy Peggy case (37:39):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: that doctor is typical he saw a (37:42):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: woman that wanted to say no so just to preface everyone who's (37:45):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: watching in the United States or anywhere else a doctor decided a rugby playing (37:48):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: doctor who now calls himself Beth he was working in a hospital in Fife and for (37:54):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: some unknown reason he decided he wanted a change in the nurse's female changing room, (38:00):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: But there's no reason for him to be in there at all, not because he's a doctor, (38:07):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: but also because he's a bloke, a man. (38:11):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: And I think he clocked with that woman. (38:13):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: She wasn't going to go along with it. She wasn't playing along. (38:17):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: And he wanted to make her life a misery. (38:21):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: And I think that's been happening in a lot of workplaces. (38:24):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: And everyone's frightened of them because they have a protected characteristic (38:28):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: of gender reassignment under the Equality Act. (38:31):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: And the only workers that have any rights in this (38:33):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: country apparently are those who have these protected characteristics because (38:36):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: the equality act is often engaged in employment tribunals (38:40):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: so you know (38:43):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: it's these these men are abusive men that abuse their wives in their own home (38:46):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: with something what we would call coercive control and that is a gradual infringement (38:51):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: and erosion of boundaries until that woman doesn't even bloody know what day of the week it is. (38:58):
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Hearts of Oak: Yeah. Can I, I want to just kind of finish off on the, on the, (39:05):
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Hearts of Oak: the trans lobby, um, and the aggressiveness and militant and, um, (39:11):
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Hearts of Oak: hate, I think that you see coming out of them, um, and the lack of rationale (39:17):
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Hearts of Oak: and et cetera, et cetera. (39:22):
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Hearts of Oak: Let's know what that's been like for you because i think often we think you (39:25):
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Hearts of Oak: can reason with someone you can begin to explain but then if someone is screaming (39:29):
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Hearts of Oak: in your face then you realize actually (39:35):
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Hearts of Oak: something's gone wrong up here and there's no amount of common sense what does (39:38):
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Hearts of Oak: that mean how kind of have you observed uh the the trans lobby and how far they (39:43):
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Hearts of Oak: will go to to get their awful message out (39:48):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: Well that look they've just (39:51):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: they're entitled kids most of them and they've. (39:54):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: Just been given the keys to the castle without (39:57):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: doing a day's work to deserve them so i i (40:00):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: don't i look you bad bad people have always existed (40:04):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: um and entitled people have (40:07):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: always existed and and unwell people have always (40:09):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: existed and fetishists and so on i mean (40:12):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: i i just don't think you can rationalize with those people and what (40:15):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: would be the point what would be the point in laboring for like (40:19):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: three hours with a conversation where they've just (40:21):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: decided before you even start that you're a Nazi um so (40:25):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: I'd I've never thought my job was to (40:29):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: convince uh those people that they're (40:32):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: wrong I think my job has always been to convince everybody (40:35):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: else that there is an issue and they (40:39):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: need to be aware of it so that's what my activism always (40:41):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: has always been about i did um i did (40:44):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: a guerrilla lighting we lit up the royal opera (40:47):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: house and the bbc building with the dictionary definition um (40:50):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: these let women speak often uh draw (40:54):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: quite a lot of attention from the other side which is (40:57):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: always brilliant for me because they're they're (41:00):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: idiots so they come out and they shout and they're aggressive and they've got (41:04):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: violent signs and half of them have got walking sticks where they've been taking (41:07):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: cross-sex hormones and i think people look across and look oh here's the two (41:12):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: sides middle-aged women and a group of entitled shouty uh kids. (41:16):
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Hearts of Oak: So I said I want to end off on this. (41:24):
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Hearts of Oak: In terms of pushing and trying to change the argument here, trying to win people (41:28):
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Hearts of Oak: over, and then you've got the political win of Trump stateside. (41:35):
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Hearts of Oak: Is that kind of the cavalry coming to help? because I've been blown away by (41:40):
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Hearts of Oak: how he's talked about going after some of the doctors who participated in the (41:46):
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Hearts of Oak: mutilation of children. (41:51):
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Hearts of Oak: And that shows a full on. It's not just, no, that's wrong. It's we're going (41:53):
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Hearts of Oak: to go after the people who push this. (41:57):
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Hearts of Oak: What are your thoughts on that? Is that the cavalry coming to help us? (42:00):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: Well, I don't know, because all the way through his executive order were the (42:05):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: ideas coming from this side of the Atlantic. (42:10):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: I mean, in particular, he uses adult human female. (42:14):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: Like, I don't think that's a coincidence that this was, you know, our rallying cry. (42:18):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: So I think we definitely gave a perspective, like we're called Turf Island over (42:22):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: here because of our arguments. (42:31):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: And the American women had not been listened to at all. I think it was the American (42:33):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: right that helped do much of this work. (42:39):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: But, yeah, no, I don't know if they're coming to help us. I think we've been (42:45):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: pretty good at helping ourselves. (42:51):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: But without our Trump, I don't know who would be so charismatic and courageous as to do what he's done. (42:52):
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Hearts of Oak: In case people don't know the term turf, tell us what that is. (43:01):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: Um so it comes from (43:05):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: trans exclusionary radical feminists but i'm a (43:08):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: i don't recognize trans as a thing i don't think it's a thing i think it's um (43:12):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: i say nowadays it's not an identity it's a set of behaviors when someone says (43:16):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: i'm trans they're telling you about their behavior and and most of them are (43:20):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: not good um and i'm certainly not a radical feminist i might be relatively radical (43:24):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: but I'm definitely not a feminist. (43:29):
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Kellie-Jay Keen: Kelly J I really. (43:32):
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