Prof Angus Dalgleish - The Evolution of Cancer Treatment: A 40-Year Journey

Professor Angus Dalgleish shares insights from his 40-year career in oncology, focusing on innovative cancer treatment approaches and the role of immunotherapy. He reflects on his transition from traditional chemotherapy to employing the immune system in combatting cancer, drawing on his earlier HIV/AIDS research. Dalgleish emphasizes the significance of personalized treatment plans and the emotional aspects of delivering cancer diagnoses. He advocates for monitoring vitamin D levels in patients and integrating lifestyle factors, like diet and exercise, into cancer care. Critiquing the pharmaceutical industry's influence on cancer research, he highlights the neglect of affordable treatments and expresses concerns about mRNA vaccines and their potential links to "turbo cancers." His conversation underscores the need for a holistic, patient-centered approach in oncology, advocating for comprehensive strategies that prioritize patient wellbeing over commercial interests.

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*Special thanks to Bosch Fawstin for recording our intro/outro on this podcast.

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Episode Transcript

Hearts of Oak: And hello, Hearts of Oak. Thanks so much for joining us once again. (00:24):
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Hearts of Oak: I'm delighted to have Professor Angus Daglish join us once again. (00:26):
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Hearts of Oak: Professor Daglish, thank you so much for your time today. (00:31):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: You're welcome. (00:34):
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Hearts of Oak: Great to have you. And I think you were on a number of years ago, (00:34):
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Hearts of Oak: and you've, of course, given 40 years of your life to actually focusing and (00:39):
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Hearts of Oak: treating cancer from back in after your short trip in Australia, (00:44):
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Hearts of Oak: down under, returned to the UK in 1984, (00:51):
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Hearts of Oak: after completing your training. (00:54):
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Hearts of Oak: And you started the Institute of Cancer Research. (00:56):
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Hearts of Oak: You've been professor at Onycology, St. George's University of London, of course. (01:00):
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Hearts of Oak: Your name is also known for major advances and contributions to the HIV AIDS (01:05):
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Hearts of Oak: conversation and research. So there's a lot there within those 40 years. (01:12):
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Hearts of Oak: But maybe ask you a little bit about your career. Start with that. (01:17):
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Hearts of Oak: Just to touch on that, And I've kind of given some of the bullet points. (01:22):
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Hearts of Oak: But 40 years looking at this one issue. (01:27):
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Hearts of Oak: Tells me a little bit about it, maybe how things have progressed in your time (01:30):
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Hearts of Oak: or what you have learned, the changes of approach to dealing with cancer. (01:35):
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Hearts of Oak: So, yeah, fill us in a little bit around that. (01:40):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: Well, that's very interesting to ask that because I just suddenly remembered (01:43):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: my first indications why I thought I would do oncology. (01:47):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: I was a senior student on a ward round with a surgeon, and they'd done a big (01:52):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: operating list the day before, and it was the old Florence-style ward. (01:58):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: So we all went as a team, the consultants, the registrars, the housemen, (02:02):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: and then there was me, the attached medical student. (02:07):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And we went round everybody, and they chatted to everybody, said, (02:10):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: you had an appendix, you had a gallbladder, everything. (02:14):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And he deliberately missed out for people who (02:17):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: were sitting up there really alarmed that they hadn't been (02:20):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: told what had happened and when I asked the registrar why he had missed them (02:23):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: out and not spoken to them he said it's because he found they had cancer and (02:28):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: there's no point doing anything talking to them because nothing can be done (02:33):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: about it so I thought well there's clearly an unmet need here. (02:37):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: That was the first time I thought perhaps I would start looking at these cancer patients seriously. (02:42):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And I must say that I got very interested in viruses and cancer from a very early stage. (02:50):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And that's what drew me into the immunology of cancer, because you mentioned the HIV. (02:58):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: I worked out, and this is all relevant to what's happened with COVID, (03:06):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: but we didn't get any kind of backing for this, that the pathogenesis, i.e. (03:11):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: How HIV causes AIDS, was that it induces a hyperreactive immune system in people (03:16):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: with the right genetic background. (03:24):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And I realized that you could usurp this type of approach to treat cancers. (03:26):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And it has been done in leukemias, lymphomas, without realizing the role that HIV played in this. (03:34):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And that's really got that completely changed my approach. (03:41):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: So my training involved, obviously, more the merrier chemotherapy. (03:45):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And I found the toxicity relative to the benefit very difficult. (03:51):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: It had to be an art form because the response rates were so low when I started (03:59):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: out in the late 70s doing this. (04:05):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: But now they've improved dramatically, so we feel an awful lot of what we've done is worth it. (04:09):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: It's over 25 years ago, maybe 30 years ago, that I started doing immunotherapy for cancer. (04:15):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And for a long time, I was the only one. And they regarded me as, (04:23):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: you know, a sort of a maverick trying these things. (04:27):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: The patients were grateful because they had nothing else. And some of them responded (04:31):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: dramatically. And that's what kept me going. So that's how I got into cancer. (04:35):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And I think I was the first to use high-dose interleukin-2, which was an American (04:40):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: innovation, which was very toxic. And I found out the low doses were just as (04:46):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: good if you use them in the right way without the side effects. (04:51):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And then I was one of the first to use cancer vaccines, which I started out (04:54):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: with Donald Morton from the John Wayne Cancer Institute. And we were the only (05:00):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: center outside the US working with him for a long time. (05:04):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And then I ended up examining trials with at least a dozen vaccines and found (05:08):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: that the very best wasn't really a vaccine. It was an immune stimulator. (05:15):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: So this is how that's a brief evolution of how I end up doing oncology much (05:19):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: different from how they would like to train me. (05:26):
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Hearts of Oak: Well, there are a whole lot of areas I like to pick up on, on a number of things you said. (05:29):
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Hearts of Oak: But if I may jump to people watching today just to look at how you engage with (05:35):
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Hearts of Oak: people who get that news, and then we can step back and look at some of the (05:41):
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Hearts of Oak: different treatments and the conversation about vaccines and all of that. (05:45):
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Hearts of Oak: But we're told that one or two people will get cancer. (05:49):
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Hearts of Oak: And i guess whenever someone hears they've (05:54):
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Hearts of Oak: got it they feel their world has fallen apart and (05:57):
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Hearts of Oak: they feel it it's all over it's the panic sets (06:00):
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Hearts of Oak: in when you hear you've got you've got the big c (06:03):
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Hearts of Oak: and that's it how do you initially i guess engage with uh with someone who has (06:06):
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Hearts of Oak: just received that uh initially it feels like it's devastating news it may not (06:13):
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Hearts of Oak: be devastating because boy cancer retreat it has has moved ahead so much in the last few decades. (06:18):
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Hearts of Oak: But why do you initially respond? Because I guess with people watching, (06:25):
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Hearts of Oak: one and two of the viewers now, the listeners, they will also be in that situation (06:30):
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Hearts of Oak: if that statistic is true. (06:36):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: Well, these days, the majority of people I see have already been told the diagnosis (06:38):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: and often had appropriate treatment, (06:45):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: and they want some more because the treatment tends not to be completely effective (06:48):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: and want to know what helps. (06:55):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: So that's what I do. I really have a patient who's gone through that process. (06:57):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: When I used to see them more regularly in the NHS hospital, I'd be dealing with (07:03):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: melanoma stage 3 or stage 4, (07:09):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: and they had already been told in detail the implications with all the leaflets (07:12):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: and everything they give. (07:21):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: Stage 3, which means you've got lymph nodes from the melanoma, (07:22):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: is a very straightforward process, and if the management's done well, you can be sure. (07:26):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: I saw somebody who I treated 20 years ago, only last week, who essentially had (07:32):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: stage four because he had lymph nodes everywhere. (07:38):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: He had a vaccine immunotherapy program. (07:42):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: This is years before it was ever considered to be part of the protocol. (07:46):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: It's been disease-free for over 20 years. I have a lot of patients like that. (07:51):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And because I've been confident in them, I know (07:55):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: the people you can be confident because there's no (07:58):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: point being a total pessimist and losing (08:01):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: all hope because it'll become a self-fulfilling prophecy (08:04):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: you want people who are going to i'm going to fight this (08:07):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: i'm going to be positive and do all the other things uh (08:10):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: to help that's that's might be my role is this is what you have to do we can (08:13):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: only do so much and a good example is that we found when we did the early immunotherapy (08:19):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: programs this immune stimulant and I had low-dose interleukin-2, et cetera. (08:26):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: We found that some people responded fantastically to this, but the majority didn't. (08:32):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: So we spent... The question is, why? (08:38):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: Why did this patient do so well and this patient not? (08:42):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: So I was able to get out. I mean, I had all my research in this field covered (08:46):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: by the Institute of Cancer Vaccines Immunotherapy, which is a charity set up (08:51):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: to support me because the CRUK refused to do it. (08:56):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And yet another time when I believe the CRUK get everything wrong. (09:00):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: So I'm just pointing out I couldn't have done this if it wasn't for the other (09:04):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: charity. So I think people need to think very carefully what charities they support. (09:09):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: The big ones, I believe, are just too much like Big Pharma. (09:15):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: At any rate, I won't go into that. But because of this, we looked at all sorts of things. (09:20):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And the answer was so unbelievably simple. (09:26):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: It occurred when they rolled out really reliable assays you could do quite quickly for vitamin D. (09:30):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And there it was the only people who (09:38):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: responded had good levels of vitamin d the majority (09:41):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: who didn't had low vitamin d so we (09:44):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: began correcting the vitamin d and our response rate went (09:48):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: up i mean it's these simple things i went (09:51):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: to nice with senior colleagues it's well (09:54):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: over 15 years ago possibly (09:58):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: more with all this evidence to say that (10:01):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: they should make it absolutely mandatory that (10:04):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: everybody gets the vitamin d checked and it's brought (10:08):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: up to high levels before you start treating because if (10:10):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: it's low you will not respond to chemotherapy i mean my (10:14):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: colleague daniel von hoff big pancreatic (10:17):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: cancer trialist in america i mean he kind (10:20):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: of laughed at me when i started this out and then phoned me up three months (10:23):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: later and he said i've been through our records he said nobody responds to chemo (10:26):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: in pancreatic cancer if their vitamin d is low he says it's unbelievable so (10:32):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: we're now correcting it and we told nice uh this the most inappropriately named. (10:36):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: Organization since sage and many (10:43):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: others but i mean uh they might (10:47):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: as well talk to keep us at the zoo really as (10:49):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: well they're interested in and they said (10:52):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: oh we'll put it on our five-year plan well that (10:55):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: 15 years have passed and it's there (10:59):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: only um as advice for nutrition (11:02):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: it is vital for your immune response and this (11:05):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: is what annoys me all the people at the top of these organizations are (11:08):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: to me are idiots they they do not think (11:12):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: of what happens in their interface between the patient and the clinician they're (11:16):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: too high up there in the clouds and elite they think it's it's not important (11:21):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: enough they will get involved if Pfizer or somebody comes along with a new drug (11:25):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: that cost 100 grand a year and is very toxic and works just in a few people (11:29):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: then they get very excited, (11:34):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: But if there's something that's really cheap, non-toxic, it has a mega effect. (11:35):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And I would have thought that was part of the NHS's role. (11:40):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And they clearly don't take their job seriously. (11:44):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: I mean, I will levy that. I think to have all these patients come to me who (11:49):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: fail various chemotherapies and things, and no one's taken their vitamin D level. (11:54):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: I take it and it's in the boots. And I said, you know, you shouldn't be allowed (12:01):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: to start out on a course of therapy, chemotherapy, immunotherapy, (12:06):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: unless you've had your vitamin D corrected. (12:11):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: The data is that black and white. (12:13):
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Hearts of Oak: Well, we actually got our first strike by talking about vitamin D during COVID, (12:15):
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Hearts of Oak: recommending or saying the research seemed to be that vitamin D was important in combating that. (12:21):
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Hearts of Oak: And we got a strike from YouTube for that. That was medical misinformation. (12:27):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: Oh, yes. Well, we now know that Pfizer, in the COVID, (12:31):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: this is before the vaccine, basically were funding charities to put the correct (12:40):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: information out there that vitamin D will only do you harm and has serious side (12:49):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: effects. Do not take it for COVID. (12:55):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: They were doing that. Why were they doing that? because basically with vitamin (12:56):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: D and ivermectin, you'd have cured everybody that was curable. (13:01):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: There's no need for the vaccine. That's why they did that. (13:04):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: They were setting everything up. That's why in this country, (13:07):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: witty and balance all changed their minds and suddenly were all for the vaccine (13:11):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: when they had previously said some sensible things before. (13:16):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: So the bullying, the power, I mean, you have to basically remember that these big organizations, (13:20):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: Pfizer, has paid out billions in fines for withholding safety data, (13:30):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: presenting the wrong data, bribing clinicians, (13:38):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: bribing the regulators. (13:42):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: This time is a full house. (13:44):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: Bribed all the politicians and organizations as well. (13:46):
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Hearts of Oak: Tell me, because when people get that diagnosis (13:50):
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Hearts of Oak: they think well i'm going to go and be blasted with (13:53):
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Hearts of Oak: radiation and it's kind of will my (13:56):
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Hearts of Oak: body survive that or will the cancer survive this (13:59):
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Hearts of Oak: kind of which one comes up it's a when you look into chemotherapy and how it (14:03):
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Hearts of Oak: works it seems a very destructive process and that seems to have been um from (14:07):
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Hearts of Oak: my understanding as i read about it in the general press that seems to be the (14:13):
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Hearts of Oak: the usual way of treating it, especially in the UK. (14:18):
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Hearts of Oak: Is that correct or not? Are there other methods that are also used, (14:20):
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Hearts of Oak: or is that the normal route that people go down? (14:25):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: You're referring specifically to radiotherapy. (14:29):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: Yeah, well, with radiotherapy is, I mean, I trained as a radiotherapist for a year. (14:32):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: I was thinking of doing that until I realized that actually radiotherapy was (14:38):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: rapidly becoming a technical approach to cancer as opposed to an art form. (14:43):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: I like the sort of art science aspect because we were getting to the stage when (14:50):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: I did that time when people had the brilliant idea of linking the CT scans up (14:55):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: to the radiotherapy machines so that they could actually treat the tumor in real time. (15:03):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And that led to focus radiotherapy. (15:10):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: So radiotherapy was used in the old days. We called it spot welding or frying. (15:13):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: Which one way of looking at so the (15:20):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: and the other thing is that there's very high (15:23):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: doses focused and not so high doses uh (15:27):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: not focused um that's the so-called (15:30):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: frying bit a lot a lot of the damage was in (15:33):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: the frying but with those computers and all the programs you (15:36):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: can now program highly selective stereotactic (15:40):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: radiotherapy just to target the tumor i (15:44):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: mean a very a very good example is prostate cancer is (15:47):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: that the selective radiotherapy with the (15:51):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: right treatment has just as good as outcome as (15:53):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: surgery and that uh and probably (15:56):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: uh less side effects i mean that's the (16:00):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: radiotherapists have claimed and (16:03):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: uh it as from my point of view that (16:06):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: that is a very good example of where radiotherapy is (16:09):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: probably a better option because it has improved so much and then other other (16:13):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: uses of it it's it's um and people forget this because i remember i did a lot (16:20):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: of radiotherapy for this we didn't do it to cure the cancer. (16:25):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: We did it to shrink the cancer, to reduce symptoms, pain, you know, (16:30):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: severe discomfort, etc. (16:36):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And it was good for that. So I think (16:38):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: it's important people understand that radiotherapy is technically so good now (16:41):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: and the precautions taken to prevent the side effects are so much better that (16:48):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: I have no big issues with radiotherapy. (16:56):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: I recommend it for quite a few of (16:59):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: my patients if we have immunotherapy for (17:02):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: a while with a lot of disease (17:06):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: and most of it goes away and you have what (17:09):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: i call a rogue elephant of disease lymph (17:11):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: node that won't go down then you can zap that with radiotherapy and get rid (17:15):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: of it and then you could actually render the patient disease free so these treatments (17:21):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: need to be integrated in the whole of eliminating the disease or certainly keeping it under control. (17:27):
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Hearts of Oak: When you say integrated is is (17:34):
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Hearts of Oak: one of the issues maybe that we have in (17:37):
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Hearts of Oak: the medical profession is the speciality route um (17:40):
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Hearts of Oak: and and it doesn't look this (17:44):
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Hearts of Oak: my perception anyway for me if you tell me i'm wrong but (17:47):
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Hearts of Oak: um it doesn't look uh generally at (17:50):
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Hearts of Oak: the holistic side um of the body and certainly he (17:53):
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Hearts of Oak: doesn't bring into account other factors outside the (17:56):
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Hearts of Oak: body like diet or food or um it (17:59):
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Hearts of Oak: focuses so narrowly on an area um is is that part of the reason maybe why um (18:03):
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Hearts of Oak: these are not being tackled properly uh because we're too narrow focused and (18:10):
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Hearts of Oak: don't doesn't connect with other fields within that does that kind of make sense (18:16):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: Well, certainly what you're ringing bells, what I'm hearing from a lot of people (18:21):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: is, certainly the medical training has been much reduced. (18:26):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: It's very, very truncated compared to my day. (18:31):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And people are specializing far too soon in just their particular areas. (18:35):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And so they're not aware of the bigger picture so much. They will just say. (18:42):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: Do radiotherapy of just the chest, for instance, etc. (18:49):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: Or they will just do surgery in one bit, which is probably a good thing because (18:54):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: they get very, very good at that. (18:59):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: But because of this, there seems to be a failure to stand back and recognize (19:01):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: all the other things that might be contributing to the issue. (19:07):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: So the good generalist physician, I mean, that seems to be lost now. (19:11):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: Everybody is a specialist of some sort. (19:19):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And you can get through to that position much quicker than in my day. (19:21):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: I mean, when we did oncology, we were expected to have done quite a few years (19:26):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: of really high-class internal medicine, we called it. (19:30):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: So, you know, you did everything. You need the infections, the autoimmunities, and the cancers. (19:35):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: That's one of them. And then we started branching out and said, (19:43):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: we can't do all this. It's too much work. We'll just focus on the cancer aspect. (19:46):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: But now it's cancer of that. (19:51):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And they don't see the whole big picture, which is why I believe simple things (19:54):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: like vitamin D was missed. and why the importance of the diet and exercise, for instance. (19:59):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: I mean, my own colleagues dismissed all this of complete waste of time messing (20:08):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: around with these issues. They have nothing to do with it. (20:15):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: I mean, I was told that by colleagues of very well-known cancer hospitals and totally dismiss it. (20:18):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: No. I mean, people accept that in order to have a good outcome, (20:26):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: you do need to address the diet, lifestyle, stop smoking, (20:31):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: stop doing several other things that we know are bad, reduce obesity, (20:37):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: and all these things need to be done. (20:43):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And one of the things that came out recently which I was really very interested (20:45):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: in is a study showing that exercise really improves the outcome of coorectal cancer. (20:50):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And that's fascinating because I remember being in a big meeting on tumour immunology. (20:57):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: It was over 10 years ago. And a fellow presented a mouse experiment where they (21:04):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: had mice with the tumours. (21:14):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And the mice, the poor fellows, had to do this compulsory exercise on a wheel. (21:16):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: You know, the way they run around. (21:23):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And they split these mice into that. (21:25):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And he was very excited. He said, the mice who have to do this, (21:29):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: their tumour is much slower to progress than those that just sit around in the cage eating. (21:33):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: So he'd actually established. And then years later, we found out that this is working in the clinic. (21:38):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: Now, the whole time of the training I did, (21:45):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: nobody ever, i mean i'm took now now there's (21:48):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: a lot of people with different inputs in in cleanliness you're (21:52):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: getting dieticians and you're getting physios for all these sort of things which (21:55):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: is good it's very good but when we were trained we were all trained that this (21:59):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: is all nonsense you just need to focus on the cancer and kill it but now it's (22:04):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: become clear that we need to take all these other things into consideration. (22:09):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And perhaps the most important thing is, he alluded to, it is the attitude. (22:14):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: It's coping, right? (22:20):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: That's what I've got. What can we do about it? What are we going to do about (22:24):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: it? How can I improve the outcome? (22:28):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: That's what we've got to capture now, as opposed to, oh, this is a disaster, (22:31):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: etc., which is a natural reaction initially. (22:36):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: But I must say (22:40):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: that I'm quite proud of the cancer (22:43):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: world because we have improved the (22:47):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: outcome of cancers dramatically since when (22:50):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: I was even a registrar and you (22:53):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: know the thing I'm most proud of in spite of all the HIV and the vaccines and (22:57):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: immunotherapy was a period in my life when I was doing the general medicine (23:02):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: bit and I had this terrible woman with one of the most dreadful autoimmune diseases (23:07):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: known who was steroid resistant. (23:13):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And I had remembered that a similar case had been reported as a single case as. (23:16):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: Responding to thalidomide, which was given to them to help them sleep, (23:24):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: because that's what it was used for pregnant women. (23:29):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: Then they realized it's a disaster. They were causing the birth defects. (23:32):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: But I remembered it had this effect. So I (23:37):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: gave it to this woman and she had a fantastic recovery having (23:40):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: been reduced uh she was (23:43):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: like a skeleton because she couldn't eat or drink she had (23:46):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: mouth ulcers everywhere it's just absolutely awful and to see this woman recover (23:49):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: within 48 hours after giving thalidomide made me shout and say don't throw the (23:56):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: baby away with the bath water and I tried to get backing to go into this. (24:02):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: The Wellcome turned me down, the MRC turned me down, the CIUK, (24:09):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: what it was then, all turned me down on the grounds, don't we realise this drug (24:14):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: causes severe side effects? (24:20):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: We cannot possibly get involved with birth defects. (24:21):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: I said, well, don't you realise that I'm an oncologist and every drug I use (24:24):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: will cause birth defects and I'm stupid enough to give them to a pregnant woman? (24:29):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: What bit do you not get? Well, fortunately, my fury was brought to the attention (24:32):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: of some people who knew about thalidomide working in a startup company in America. (24:37):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: Eric, the bottom line is I said I'd love to work with them on this, (24:46):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: but thalidomide, I'm not worried about birth defects. I'm worried about if you (24:51):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: use it for two months or more, you get very bad neuropathy. (24:56):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And I was showing you needed to keep giving it to get the benefit. (24:59):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: So anyhow I finally persuaded them It took two years to make analogues That (25:03):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: means you take the clitamide And you tweak it here And you screen. (25:09):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: Long story, long, long story short, at any rate, out of this, (25:14):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: we had a fantastic drug ticked all the boxes. (25:19):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: That drug's now called lenalidomide and is used worldwide and has been the most (25:22):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: important drug in increasing the survival of multiple myeloma from two years to seven years. (25:29):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And that is an incredible improvement. (25:35):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: So going into cancer actually is very, very exciting. And I actually have some (25:38):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: personal friends who are taking it as maintenance treatment. (25:42):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And that's a great feeling to think if it wasn't for my persistence, (25:48):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: that drug wouldn't have been around. (25:51):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: So this is what you have to keep driving forward. (25:53):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: There is a great thing if I don't do something and it's not going to get done. (25:58):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And that's what keeps people like (26:03):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: me at my old age still flying the (26:06):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: whip about trying to improve everything because for the (26:11):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: training at the moment it's far too specialized and (26:14):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: that what that means that the clinical (26:18):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: trials have to be they're made to be big and all the research is big pharma (26:21):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: driven which is why what i call the really obvious improvements are ignored (26:27):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: even though they're very clear because they're not being pushed by a big phone and that's. (26:33):
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Hearts of Oak: What's going to say is is the is the (26:38):
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Hearts of Oak: drive is the the cancer industry because everything becomes an industry looking (26:41):
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Hearts of Oak: for good outcomes and generating money to continue that is the drive from the (26:48):
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Hearts of Oak: pharmaceutical industry or is from doctors actually on the ground and what they're (26:52):
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Hearts of Oak: getting from patients is there a lot of crossover between (26:57):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: Those um. (27:00):
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Hearts of Oak: Or is it pharma do the research and then they're the ones that decide what to (27:01):
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Hearts of Oak: do i mean where is the where is the focus or the push or the collaboration there (27:06):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: It's i think it's nearly all industry driven (27:12):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: and one of the i mentioned you know (27:16):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: we have this immune stimulant which had (27:19):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: made such a big improvement in melanoma and (27:23):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: I was finding that it was the case in many (27:26):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: other ones even pancreatic cancer we (27:29):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: did a randomized study which showed it (27:33):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: did improve the outcome of pancreatic cancer and (27:35):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: when we tried to get CRUK to help us with this because there was no big company (27:39):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: their attitude was kind of well if it's important you'd have a big farmer behind (27:45):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: and then if you did then we would we'll collaborate with them and i said you (27:50):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: know you raise millions and millions and millions of pounds a year of poor, (27:54):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: unsuspecting public with uh give us your money tv adverts a dreadful thing and (27:59):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: they're telling us she basically just exists to subsidize big farmer to make (28:05):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: big profits i mean that's the way i interpreted this this interaction. (28:09):
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Hearts of Oak: Tell me there, you touched on immunology. (28:14):
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Hearts of Oak: Tell us a little bit more about that, because my understanding is immunology (28:18):
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Hearts of Oak: is about the immune system, which is protecting the body from outside attacks, (28:22):
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Hearts of Oak: and cancer comes from within, from the cells within. (28:27):
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Hearts of Oak: How does immunology fit into the conversation on cancer, or does it not really? (28:30):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: Well, it does, completely. That's the other thing I was told by senior colleagues, (28:38):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: that the immune system had absolutely nothing to do with cancer. (28:42):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: For years and years and years, I was told this. (28:46):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And I started to get very suspicious of this over the years. (28:50):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: HIV kind of confirmed it because when the HIV wrecked the immune system, cancers popped up. (28:55):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: Lymphoma for instance um a (29:03):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: capuses ca cervix they (29:07):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: all came out when the immune system went down but most importantly what i and (29:09):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: gene shearer who i think is the best immunologist i've ever come across in the (29:15):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: world he's long since retired basically we started looking at the immune response in people with cancer. (29:20):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And he did lymphomas and glioma. I did melanoma and colorectal. (29:29):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And the colorectals were just unbelievable because we had very interested people (29:34):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: at St. George's who wanted to do some research. (29:39):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And we found that if you have colorectal cancer and it's early, (29:42):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: we could still detect really marked immune suppression. (29:46):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And the reason that let's change my approach (29:51):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: to everything is when you removed it surgically so there was no cancer left (29:54):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: and you measured the immune response it would bounce up all by itself after (29:59):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: it was removed the only conclusion with that simple experiment is the cancer (30:05):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: caused the immune suppression now. (30:11):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: We could get over that by just cutting out the colon cancer. (30:15):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: Now, I got interested in this because the majority of my melanoma patients, (30:18):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: we couldn't cut all the cancer out. (30:22):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: So that told me you had to boost the immune response that these tumors were (30:24):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: suppressing before you were going to get anywhere to get in a level field. (30:29):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And that's basically what we showed. And we improved the outcome dramatically (30:33):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: by boosting the innate immune response. (30:37):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: So the new immunotherapies are antibody-based, (30:40):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: and they're not targeted as people (30:44):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: always start talking about targeting cancer no (30:47):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: they're not what they're doing is taking (30:51):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: the brakes off the immune system that's been suppressed (30:54):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: by the cancer which is why in (30:57):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: certain situations they can lead to complete responses it's (31:01):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: very good in melanoma lungs about 23 (31:04):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: different cancer types respond to this type of immunotherapy now (31:07):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: and why they have very bad side (31:11):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: effects because there's no direction they take (31:14):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: the brakes off the immune responses that will (31:17):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: attack you but are being normally controlled we (31:20):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: would love to have a mechanism whereby you could take the brakes off everything (31:23):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: that would get rid of the cancer and not give you the side effects i believe (31:28):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: that i believe that's within the realms of possibility and a couple of things (31:32):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: that we're working on can reduce that sort of side effect profile. (31:37):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: But that's the concept. (31:42):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: With regards to, you know, what causes cancer, people always say, what causes cancer? (31:46):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: Well, the first thing is having the wrong parents and grandparents and your (31:51):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: genetic hand of cards you get given. (31:57):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: I mean, that's just one of those things. But then what causes it And this is (32:00):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: what I came out of my research into HIV How does HIV cause misimmune suppression? (32:06):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: It never caused immune suppression unless you had immune genes that reacted (32:15):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: to the virus in a nonspecific way. So it was a big inflammatory thing. (32:22):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And then we realized that when you have inflammation, you get automatic immune (32:29):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: suppression and lots of growth factors which cancer can take advantage of. (32:35):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: So I have written books and lots of chapters and co-edited books on the role (32:39):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: of chronic inflammation and the development of cancer. (32:46):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: When you think of all the long-term ones, they're all associated with chronic inflammation. (32:49):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: Everything from the mouth, esophagus, stomach is due to chronic inflammation (32:55):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: from smoking and bad food. (33:01):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: Everything that's in the (33:03):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: in the lung particularly we know (33:06):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: is strong association with smoking and other bad inhaled things such as asbestos (33:09):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: etc the asbestos is very interesting because the chronic inflammation which (33:17):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: you can tell if you happen to be looking at someone exposed to asbestos by chance, (33:22):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: induces a very low-grade chronic inflammation that might take 40 years before (33:28):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: you get the mesothelioma. (33:33):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: Now, at the other end, the colon, for instance, a very common cancer, (33:35):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: it's much more likely to arise in chronic inflammatory processes. (33:41):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And these include ulcerative colitis, I knew that as a medical student, Crohn's, and polyps. (33:45):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And polyps are basically an inflammatory lesion leading to an adenoma and if (33:51):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: you don't cut it out it will go malignant you know so if it wasn't for the chronic (33:57):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: inflammation this process wouldn't happen. (34:02):
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Hearts of Oak: Tam there's been a lot i think especially in the u.s there's been a lot of talk (34:07):
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Hearts of Oak: about alternative ways of treating cancer i don't know whether this has only (34:12):
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Hearts of Oak: been more recent because many of us are now plugged into alternatives during (34:18):
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Hearts of Oak: the COVID time when we were told one thing and that was it. (34:23):
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Hearts of Oak: Well, we look for other alternatives. (34:26):
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Hearts of Oak: But certainly in the US, there's been a lot of talk on certainly ivermectin (34:29):
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Hearts of Oak: that was kind of during the COVID time. (34:33):
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Hearts of Oak: But then also in Fembandazole and Membandazole, those three have come up a lot (34:36):
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Hearts of Oak: as I've looked into this. (34:45):
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Hearts of Oak: How do you see that from a UK perspective? Are these drugs that are generic (34:47):
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Hearts of Oak: and therefore don't make money? Are they drugs that haven't been studied for this? (34:54):
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Hearts of Oak: What's your perspective on that and these type of drugs being discussed as options? (34:59):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: Well, my take in the UK, it's not taken seriously by oncology at the moment. (35:06):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: Looking at ivermectin, I've looked at a lot of drugs. I mentioned thalidomide. (35:14):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: We've looked at CBD, artemisinin, all these, and found that they all have anti-cancer activity of some sort. (35:19):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: Ivermectin has many different anti-cancer mechanisms and as such is a very good (35:28):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: candidate to take through and explore. (35:35):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And again, people don't seem to want to do this. Remember, ivermectin is given (35:37):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: to millions of people worldwide. (35:43):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: One of the reviews I read suggested it saves 2 million people a year from blindness (35:46):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: because it kills these folks. (35:54):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: The other drugs which are similar but different, mabendazole and febendazole, (35:56):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: they are also used for parasites and what have you. (36:02):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And they have crossover links. Now, I remember years ago, (36:06):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: people from South America presenting that they could treat breast cancer and (36:11):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: other cancers, very successful using a concoction of these anti-parasitics. (36:19):
undefined

Prof Angus Dalgleish: But what you're seeing now is people (36:25):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: using these in cases where other conventional therapy is not working. (36:28):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And the responses, I must say at the moment, are anecdotal. (36:34):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: The good thing is ivermectin has very, very few side effects, (36:40):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: up to several times more than the normal recommended dose. (36:46):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: Nabendazole have potential liver toxicity so intermittent use is strongly. (36:53):
undefined

Prof Angus Dalgleish: Recommended. A concoction using both of them is sort of widespread in people (37:00):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: who are interested in extending out the efficacy of treatment of cancers, (37:06):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: particularly those that we can treat that they come back all the time. (37:13):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And so what I think we need to do, these drugs do not carry the big profit margin, (37:18):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: what I think we need to do, and this is the sort of thing NHS should be doing, (37:27):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: and I hope the NIH, et cetera, (37:32):
undefined

Prof Angus Dalgleish: is doing studies on this. Is this real? (37:34):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: We'll pay for the studies. Don't wait till the drug company comes along and (37:37):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: do the studies and see if there's something in it. (37:42):
undefined

Prof Angus Dalgleish: My gut feeling is that there is benefit. (37:44):
undefined

Prof Angus Dalgleish: But once again, it will be in some people probably quite marked, (37:48):
undefined

Prof Angus Dalgleish: in other people you won't see it so (37:52):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: you need to get as much data in you (37:55):
undefined

Prof Angus Dalgleish: know is it people respond there's some (37:59):
undefined

Prof Angus Dalgleish: responses to ivermectin which are quite traumatic but (38:02):
undefined

Prof Angus Dalgleish: it's a lack of lots of such reports means that these are every now and then (38:06):
undefined

Prof Angus Dalgleish: so we need to have a database of you know what exactly is it that when ivermectin (38:11):
undefined

Prof Angus Dalgleish: really works is it a particular type of tumor is it after or with different types of treatment. (38:17):
undefined

Prof Angus Dalgleish: And the other thing at the moment, we don't know the best management protocol or the best dose. (38:24):
undefined

Prof Angus Dalgleish: So you have people using ivermectin increasing the dose to really endormous level. (38:31):
undefined

Prof Angus Dalgleish: The normal dose is like 12 milligrams repeated one week, and you can get rid (38:38):
undefined

Prof Angus Dalgleish: of 99% of all known worms. (38:44):
undefined

Prof Angus Dalgleish: In oncology, they're using a milligram per kilogram, (38:46):
undefined

Prof Angus Dalgleish: which means you'd say using 12 you'd be (38:49):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: doing 70 to 140 whatever (38:53):
undefined

Prof Angus Dalgleish: every day so these are incredibly high (38:56):
undefined

Prof Angus Dalgleish: doses compared to what we use and in (39:00):
undefined

Prof Angus Dalgleish: my laboratory work I've (39:03):
undefined

Prof Angus Dalgleish: been really impressed that many drugs are (39:06):
undefined

Prof Angus Dalgleish: actually much better used intermittently and (39:09):
undefined

Prof Angus Dalgleish: it's the withdrawal period you get the the anti-cancer (39:13):
undefined

Prof Angus Dalgleish: effect not the constant exposure so (39:18):
undefined

Prof Angus Dalgleish: we need to put that into (39:22):
undefined

Prof Angus Dalgleish: the trial which we know it's (39:25):
undefined

Prof Angus Dalgleish: a good anti-cancer act uh agent because there's been (39:28):
undefined

Prof Angus Dalgleish: a lot of work on it we don't know how to use it properly and (39:31):
undefined

Prof Angus Dalgleish: that that's what we need trials do um are we (39:34):
undefined

Prof Angus Dalgleish: better off um i speak i did a tour with paul marrick we're both very interested (39:37):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: in this Are we better off using ivermectin intermittently at more normal doses (39:43):
undefined

Prof Angus Dalgleish: and adding in the bendazole for bendazole or increasing the dose continuously of the ivermectin? (39:49):
undefined

Prof Angus Dalgleish: Now, I mean, I've met people who've done the latter, but still not really had (39:56):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: anything you can call a response. (40:00):
undefined

Prof Angus Dalgleish: So we're in a very gray area, but it needs formal studies that are conducted by clinical academics, (40:02):
undefined

Prof Angus Dalgleish: which we've virtually been completely eliminated by a big pharma will tell us (40:12):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: what to do philosophy that the NHS seems to have adopted. (40:19):
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Hearts of Oak: Because i've i've read certainly in the (40:24):
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Hearts of Oak: u.s that the cost of chemotherapy can be a hundred thousand dollars and more (40:26):
undefined

Hearts of Oak: i don't know if that's per year or um per dose i don't know how it works cost (40:32):
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Hearts of Oak: here but then i guess that means there's no incentive to do research on some (40:37):
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Hearts of Oak: of these more generic drugs that may come in at a fraction of that cost well (40:42):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: That's right i mean majority of immunotherapy of the drugs that I've worked (40:46):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: with, I'm horrified to find that patients go privately and they have to pay for it. (40:51):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: They're costing six, seven grand every three weeks. (40:57):
undefined

Prof Angus Dalgleish: Now, the NHS doesn't get much of a discount on that. They say it's all confidential. (41:01):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: But I do know a retired head of one of these major, (41:09):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: giant, big pharma companies told me that he (41:13):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: loved dealing with the nhs because they assumed that they (41:16):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: were getting a very good good deal because we're british (41:19):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: and he said it is so easy to he didn't have to negotiate hardly at all and that (41:22):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: is one of the problems the nhs it is unbelievably incompetent and corrupt all (41:28):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: the way through and you know people say you can't say these things and i said (41:36):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: well i've just said them I mean, if you look at the newspaper yesterday, (41:39):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: you'd have seen four senior managers jailed for a massive part in the corruption (41:43):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: of doing contracts for IT and things like that. And. (41:49):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: The word here that makes the big difference is this was only discovered through charts. (41:55):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: Well, any big organisation should have enough checks and controls, (42:02):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: so this would be impossible. (42:06):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: No, not with the NHS and many other government bodies, I'm afraid. (42:09):
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Hearts of Oak: Can I finish off just with talking about vaccines? (42:15):
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Hearts of Oak: A lot of concerns, a lot of evidence seems to point at the rise of cancer, (42:20):
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Hearts of Oak: especially turbo cancer linked to the COVID, especially the mRNA. (42:26):
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Hearts of Oak: And yet we're told we'll have a super duper mRNA cancer vaccine that will actually fix it all. (42:30):
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Hearts of Oak: Where does the truth lie in that? (42:38):
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Hearts of Oak: Is the mRNA vaccine, is that the holy grail? Or is that just fixing the problems (42:41):
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Hearts of Oak: that have initially been caused by the original vaccine? (42:46):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: Well, the latter is a good thing. (42:49):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: But I can assure you, after doing several decades, the messenger RNA wants to target tumor antigens. (42:53):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And they're boasting they can plug it in and have a vaccine very quick. (43:00):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: Now, I was head of the Institute of Cancer Vaccines before it was merged into (43:05):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: Institute of Cancer Vaccines and immunotherapy. (43:10):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And I took part in at least dozens of trials with the cancer vaccine. (43:12):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: So we had Marge, MART, NYESA. (43:20):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: These were all going to be targeting these things to kill the tumour. No. (43:24):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: Just like chemoresistance, you target the tumour antigen, cancer antigen on (43:29):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: a tumour cell with incoming missiles, the cancer is going to. (43:36):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: Down down regulate that thing so it's (43:45):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: no within three months it's not on the tumor and the tumor is (43:48):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: powering ahead so i mean that is that is (43:50):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: quite an incredible thing to do i think it's (43:53):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: going to have a very limited role and i think we should not be using messenger (43:56):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: rna technology for this and i i can tell you that i have gone through and read (44:01):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: at least 13 mechanisms whereby messenger RNA vaccines can induce or promote cancer. (44:09):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: I mean, unbelievable. Only one of those 13 reasons is a reason good enough to (44:16):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: ban them immediately, but to have 13. (44:23):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: Now, the rise of the turbo cancers, the new cancers we're seeing in young people, (44:26):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: you will see every day that when this is out there being discussed, (44:31):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: the newspapers will say, oh, this is clearly due to diet or other environmental things. (44:36):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And the thing that really gets me in the newspapers that have comments from (44:42):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: the readers online, you know, they have these articles and I always read the (44:47):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: comments first because the person would never even have mentioned vaccines. (44:53):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: He got everything but the vaccine. (44:57):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And the first comment will be, so nothing (45:00):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: to do with the fact that this only occurred a couple (45:03):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: of months after the vaccines were induced then why no (45:06):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: comment on this when many and then sometimes they mention (45:09):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: me when I've been screaming about this is the cause of it (45:12):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: for ages why don't you you know mention this and (45:14):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: we all know there's been tremendous censorship from the government I mean I've (45:18):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: been told by editors and producers alike that the government has regards it (45:21):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: as a crime to say or do or discuss anything that might make people lose confidence (45:27):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: in the vaccines well if a vaccine doesn't work and it's dangerous. (45:32):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: I think it's a crime to prevent these things being discussed. (45:36):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: Particularly when the vaccines don't work at all. There is no benefit from it whatsoever. (45:43):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: All the benefit was in the PlayStations (45:48):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: of the statisticians who said we had to have them to say this. (45:51):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And every single thing, modelling that they've done, and I mentioned Neil Ferguson, (45:56):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: as far as I can find, it's never been right. It's never been right. (46:01):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: Because the modelling takes no account of real time. (46:05):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: I mean, with the COVID, I mean, it was all exaggerated. The number of people (46:10):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: who went down with it, were ill with it or died with it. (46:15):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: It wasn't anywhere near serious a thing. (46:19):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And I wrote, I've written an article (46:24):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: today in the Conservative woman about what I call the vaccine wars. (46:25):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: People saying we must have them versus the head of the NIHJ, (46:30):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: Bathory Shara and Robert Kennedy. (46:35):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And others say no we must not be using these (46:38):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: particularly in young people because they're aware that these (46:41):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: things are highly dangerous and what i (46:45):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: was very pleased about the mail on sunday did (46:48):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: an article a few weeks ago where they (46:51):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: let me and james royal point out that these vaccines (46:54):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: are causing the cancer and we have seen it i mean they've been unbelievable we're (46:57):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: seeing cancers relapse that have been stable we have seen brand (47:00):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: new cancers present stage four and people fit and (47:03):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: healthy and I did a big survey on this where I've seen dozens of patients and (47:06):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: the thing that strikes me was I was the only doctor with a GP with a surgeon (47:14):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: with the oncologist with everybody else who asked the question and said can (47:19):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: you tell me your vaccine history, (47:23):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: Not one doctor had done it. And then those doctors will say, (47:26):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: no, there's no association with the vaccine whatsoever. (47:29):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: I see no ships. Where's the sand? (47:31):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: I mean, it's unbelievable. And I've got no doubt at all these vaccines are causing cancer. (47:35):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And the more you have, the greater your risk to rise exponentially. (47:42):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And, you know, the simple thing in that is that a booster vaccine suppresses your T-cell response. (47:46):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: Well that's the only response that's going to control (47:52):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: your cancer so that's the then it gets worse (47:56):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: and when i was asked to um about (47:59):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: the fact did i really believe this and james royal said (48:02):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: we saw it they have to balance it quite right very good and so they got the (48:05):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: experts and vaccines immunology from the places imperial and things like that (48:10):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: and the the they all say something which is extremely correct. (48:16):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: But the specious nature of their argument and the sophistry is nearly, (48:23):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: it would be funny if it wasn't so serious. (48:29):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: They all say messenger RNA is very, very safe. (48:31):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: We get exposed to tons of it every day and it's all disposed of and that and (48:36):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: causes no harm whatsoever. (48:40):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: That fact is completely true. What they don't mention is it's so easily disposed (48:42):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: with that in order for it to be a vaccine we have to stabilize it so it doesn't (48:48):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: get disposed of therein lies the problem that the stabilization uh these messenger (48:52):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: RNAs been around I was on a. (49:00):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: Messenger RNA vaccine company board over 12 (49:02):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: years ago they still haven't had anything (49:06):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: approved so now you know where you're coming from so the messenger RNA in order (49:09):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: to deliver it is delivered in such a way it can easily end up integrating and (49:14):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: then it hacks your genetic code so it can then promote an oncogene. (49:20):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: Down-regulates suppressor genes. I mean, the list goes on. It's horrendous. (49:29):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: I mean, if you just see the one slide I had prepared for me of everything in (49:33):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: the literature, by the time you get to the third thing, there should be stop out there, get rid of it. (49:37):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: The whole thing should be put in the can. And the big problem is that there's (49:44):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: a big industrial complex wants to make messenger RNA the big core of everything. (49:48):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And we fell for it in the UK. hey, Sumac signed up to Moderna to make vaccines. (49:54):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: I didn't see that ever go to tender, by the way. (49:59):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And I find it was identical in Australia. The same thing, they wanted a billion over 10 years. (50:03):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: You pay the money. It's like everything goes around. The government pays the (50:10):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: money and you get nothing back for it. (50:13):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: It's absolutely outrageous. We have to kill this culture and actually increase (50:15):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: the health of the population. (50:20):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: So that's where we are. (50:22):
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Hearts of Oak: Well, Professor Douglas, I really appreciate you coming on. (50:26):
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Hearts of Oak: And you were, I think, really the only voice from a medical point of view, (50:29):
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Hearts of Oak: actually, who was able to be in mainstream newspapers and your regular articles (50:32):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And Daily Mail. (50:37):
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Hearts of Oak: There was a lot happening online discussion, but you actually breaking through (50:38):
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Hearts of Oak: in terms of the print media and putting that out. I think you were fairly unique. (50:41):
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Hearts of Oak: I mean, a lot (50:49):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: Of them will let me talk on all sorts of things. As soon as I mentioned the (50:50):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: bad things, the vaccines, (50:54):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: I started to put things into the print, and there would be the press, (50:57):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: and it wouldn't get published. (51:03):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: I'd say, what's going on here? And they said, it was approved. (51:06):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: I was told it would be out. (51:10):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: The senior editor sees it and pulls it. (51:12):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And he pulls it because it says something negative about the vaccine so he's (51:15):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: worried about you play ball with us and you get united type of thing for telling (51:19):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: these lies to the people and you'll be rewarded that that's outrageous i mean (51:23):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: i only appreciated this when i did um. (51:28):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: An interview on sky news australia uh (51:32):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: which is a really big thing yes and the (51:35):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: producer basically said uh i've heard (51:38):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: you speak this at me i want you to tell everybody about (51:41):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: your experiences and he said i've been told not (51:44):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: to uh let you talk about this but he (51:48):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: said i've lost so many of my friends to vaccine (51:51):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: damage and things he said i (51:54):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: i don't care he said i have (51:57):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: a duty to get out there and so many people in the (52:00):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: media have not had that moral fiber (52:03):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: that even though i know them very very well (52:06):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: they won't let me tell the truth but what (52:09):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: the other thing i find that is i'm finding it very difficult now (52:12):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: to find anybody who doesn't know (52:15):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: somebody or themselves who hasn't been damaged by (52:18):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: the vaccine and the most interesting thing. (52:22):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: Of the lot is is that they even senior (52:25):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: consultant colleagues of mine haven't put it (52:28):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: together that what they're suffering from only (52:31):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: came on as a result of the vaccine and a (52:35):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: big issue is the the vaccine causes this (52:38):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: autoimmune disease and autoimmunity there's (52:41):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: 131 different types all of which have been reported in as vaccine issues but (52:44):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: when you dilute a big number by 131 you can just say oh it's all a coincidence (52:52):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: all over the place, if you add it all up. (52:59):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: It's an incredibly high percentage of people with the vaccine have suffered (53:02):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: one or more of those 131 autoimmune conditions and diseases. (53:07):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And the cost of treating those, you know, adds to the bill unbelievably. (53:14):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: And the thing that really annoys me, my own GP (53:21):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: practice constantly bullies me for a (53:24):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: new booster on this or a new vaccine on that even though they know my views (53:27):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: why do they do it they get paid but they get paid to do their job properly without (53:32):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: the vaccines and if they did the job first do no harm they would say i'm not (53:38):
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Prof Angus Dalgleish: having anything to do with this. (53:43):
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Hearts of Oak: Well i'm sure that the many of those articles you wrote have had an impact uh (53:44):
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Hearts of Oak: on the public and got through to them in a way that me social media couldn't so professor (53:49):
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