Ep 243 - Irene Lyon | The Hard Truth About Healing Trauma - Here For The Truth

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Coming up in this episode, Ibelieve in reincarnation.
I believe in a soul.
Just think, when this personpasses and that soul goes to another
human, that next human isgoing to be so much more evolved,
more regulated, because theydid all this healing work in this
lifetime.
Doing this work at any age is important.
But even if you don't get tothat full regulation, getting a little

(00:22):
bit more each day, each yearis still contributing to the greater
ether.
You are now listening to the Here.
For the Truth podcast, hostedby Joel Rafidi and youros.
All right, everybody, welcometo the Here for the Truth podcast.

(00:42):
I feel so honored to have theintroduction duties today.
My name is Yos.
I have my co host Joel Radiwith me.
I love the way you say my name is.
We have a really importantepisode for you today.
We are bringing Irene Lyonback on for the fourth time.
She is someone who I canconfidently say is a nervous system

(01:04):
expert.
I don't usually love throwingthat term around because I feel like
everyone throws it around, butwe wanted to have Irene back on to
have a really importantconversation, you know, as somatic
work, as nervous system work,as trauma work becomes more popular,
what usually happens is youhave everyone, not everyone.
You have a lot of people thatpresent themselves in a way that

(01:27):
doesn't really align withtheir actual understanding or training
on a subject.
And so we wanted Irene to comeon so we can have a deeper discussion
on what trauma healing is, onthe misconceptions around it and,
you know, what she sees goingon, you know, in the online space
and in the industry ofpersonal development and healing.

(01:50):
And so we're really excited tohave this conversation and we feel
it's really important.
And I think what happens veryoften when something starts getting
more popular, people jump onthe bandwagon and everyone starts
throwing, throwing out all thebuzzwords in their social media profiles
and in the offers.
And the reality is, you know,does everyone do what they say they

(02:12):
do?
Do they have the knowledge toback up what they present themselves
as?
So anyways, we really hope youenjoy this conversation.
We explore a bunch ofdifferent areas and if you really
enjoy this episode, pleaseshare it, because I think it's one
of those episodes that needslistening to as often as possible.
All right, everybody.
Our guest today is Irene Lyon,a dear friend, nervous system expert,

(02:38):
somatic practitioner andeducator who stopped thousands of
people around the worldunderstand and heal the root causes
of chronic stress trauma.
With advanced training inFeldenkrais magic experiencing and
neuroplasticity, Irene's workbridges science and soul to restore
the body's natural capacityfor regulation, resilience and vitality.
She's a fierce advocate forself healing, nervous system education

(03:01):
that goes beyond trends andthe buzzwords.
And she dives into the realwork of creating lasting change within
one's body.
This is her first time forfourth time.
Joining us here on Here forthe Truth.
Previous episodes were 68, 104with her partner Seth Lyon, the amazing
Seth Lyon.
And of course 182 with MaxLowen, which was an awesome episode

(03:25):
as well.
And I met Irene in personbefore your AR and Sophie, which
means I'm the best.
So you're the better one.
Welcome back.
Good to see you.
That's right.
Yeah.
How you doing?
I'm.
I am good.
It has, it's been a full year.
It's been a full 10 years, butthis year's been really full.

(03:48):
Working, working, working.
Sleeping sonning, trying to keep.
I'm still building my bodyback up after all my stuff.
You know, I've talked about that.
We don't need to get into that today.
So working on things with my system.
Seth, my husband and I werejust loving our new space in the,

(04:09):
the sticks of Vancouver.
Hanging out with llamas that Ijust saw one was on the highway down
our road.
We don't have llamas.
We don't have llamas, by the way.
But you know one of thoseFacebook community groups where they
post like this got out, thatgot out, someone go get that animal.
And so it's fun.

(04:29):
Amazing, amazing.
To kick this off when you lookaround, I guess at the nervous system
landscape, the nervous system, terrain.
Today, obviously the nervoussystem in general is something that's
becoming more popularized.
We're seeing more people usethis terminology, more people for
it to be able to work withthese tools etc and with anything.

(04:51):
As it becomes more popular, itgets more watered down as well.
So I guess give us the 101from your perspective of what you're
seeing in the nervous systemworld and terrain today.
Yeah.
And also just how much hasshifted from when you started this.
Yeah.
So I mean, if I go back towhen I first was introduced to the

(05:11):
nervous system, it would havebeen my feldenkrais training in 2001
actually in Sydney, Australia.
And it just, it blew my mind.
As someone who was traineddeeply in physiology, anatomy, exercise
science.
I grew up in an animalhospital with two parents who were
veterinarians.
So I've got, I've had amedical background for a long time.

(05:34):
And so when I found it in 01.
And then I started studyingFeldenkrais in oh 4.
There hadn't even been any,like popular press books written
on neuroplasticity.
The first one that really gotthat term to the stage was the.
Oh my goodness, I'm going toforget it.
His second book was theBrain's Way of Healing.

(05:56):
Norman Doidge, the Brain thatchanges itself or something.
Thank you, Erasmus.
So the brain, yeah, the brainthat changes itself.
And that was like pivotal.
But we knew, like people knew.
People know people who hadstrokes or troubles neurologically
and they recover.
But you have to work at it, right?
You can't just accept thatthis is my fate.

(06:17):
And then, yeah, the systemisn't going to improve, but we can
recover.
We can rewire so much ashumans because we have our higher
brain.
So I got into that work in 04.
And then when I was in privatepractice, sort of 05 through to 08,
I noticed in my practice therewere some people that just weren't
getting better with reallygood Feldenkrais work.

(06:38):
And I had my exercisebackground and it had to do with
trauma.
It had to do with what wecall, what I call.
I like to really be specificstored survival stress.
So the fight, flight, freeze,the collapse in the physiology.
I'm like, why are all thesepeople not getting better with this

(06:58):
really good neuroplastic workthat can change so much.
That introduced me to PeterLevine's work.
So this was 08.
At that time.
Peter's work was just startingto poke its head out of the ground,
even though he had beenteaching it since the early 90s 80s
and his discoveries were inthe mid-60s.

(07:19):
So this shows you how long ittakes something to get up.
And then I started studyingwith him.
I went far in that, that thatworld was assisting with at his classes
at the master level.
And what happened?
I was in my private practiceand I'm like, God, this isn't enough

(07:40):
to work with someone one houra week.
Some of my clients were withme for three, four, five years, no
joke.
And they still like I wasdoing good work, but there needed
to be more that was done whenthey weren't with me in person.
So that got me into realizingI need to teach the education.

(08:00):
So I started doing workshops.
And there's a point to this.
I'm getting to the question.
I started teaching workshopsin my office, jam packed with like
50 people.
Probably a fire hazard,shouldn't have happened.
PowerPoint presentations,talking about what I call the biology
of stress, how it works,everything I had been taught in my
s E training.

(08:21):
I was packing in into likekind of a two hour lecture that then
shifted to online.
So when I put stuff online inabout 2012, I had a business coach,
and this is so funny to me,who said to me, you can't put the
word nervous system on your site.
Why?

(08:43):
So nobody knew what it was then.
Your assimilation, honest toGod, like, it was an unknown thing
in the online world.
People knew meditation becauseeven back then, breathwork and cold
plunging and sauna wasn't a thing.
Circadian biology wasn't a thing.
So I said, well, and Iremember where I was sitting, I was
actually sitting in Victoria,British Columbia, at one of Seth's

(09:06):
trainings, Se trainings.
And I said to her, we got to put.
I have to.
I cannot not put this on thesite because this is what my work
is about.
It's about the nervous system.
She was very gracious.
She said, you got to go withyour gut.
I'm like, I'm going to go withmy gut.
So fast forward to now, 2025,everyone has the word nervous system

(09:28):
on their site.
Money coaches, breath work coaches.
I mean, I see it everywhere.
And then I kind of go, wow,this word has been taken and just
sort of bastardized.
Because if you were to askmany of the people who use that word,
they could not tell anyone.
I'm being.

(09:48):
I'm pretty certain what thenervous system is, how it works,
what the real branches are,what the polyvagal theory really
is, what trauma really is inthe system and what it takes to move
it out because it isn't justone thing.
And so oddly at that time,2012 through 2015, I was just pumping

(10:11):
stuff out online becausethat's when the online course world
was just going ballistic.
And then it really went crazyin 2020, kind of BC before COVID
and then.
And then poof, it's everywhere.
So I take partialresponsibility, I think, because

(10:33):
my first training, onlinetraining was the healing trauma series.
I remember the first time thatwent out, you guys, I think we had
20,000 signups.
And you guys are in the online world.
You know how hard it is to get20,000 signups now?
Yeah, yeah, I was.
And I look back and I'm like,wow, people were hungry for it.
People didn't know what it was.

(10:56):
So I think it's out there forgood reason because it has to be
out there.
Anybody I talk to now is like,you're right, the nervous system
work is key.
All these other things arereally important, but we have to
get into that physiology in areally deep way.
The trouble is that it's beenhijacked, as I've said.
It's kind of been capitalizedon, and a lot of people don't really

(11:20):
know what it is or what traumawork is.
So that's my long way ofintroducing, like, that's kind of
the trajectory.
And here we are now.
Yeah.
Thank you for that.
Yeah.
So two things.
Yep.
One, and you could explorethis after I say the next thing.
But, like, what, like, whatis, like, misunderstood around, like,

(11:43):
what trauma healing is?
The other thing I want to sayis because, let's say nervous system
work and trauma healing hasbeen a bit bastardized and, like
Joel said, watered down.
I feel like there's this,like, growing, I mean, subtle and
maybe certain circles movementof, like, trauma doesn't cause disease.
You know, trauma doesn'timpact you.

(12:05):
And a lot of people who thinktrauma is just in the event, as opposed
to, you know, a very complexphysiological, psychological process
that's happening, whatever inyour body.
And so it's interesting tohear people talk about that because
a lot of people now aretalking about how, like, the role
the psyche plays in disease,the role trauma plays in disease.

(12:26):
And it feels like I'm seeing alittle bit of this pushback.
But again, this pushback iscoming from a place where people
do not understand thephysiology of the nervous system
and what trauma really is.
So if you can speak on that,that would be great.
Yeah.
I didn't realize there was pushback.
There's a little.
I mean, it's in our.
In our little world, you know,a few people commenting on it, and

(12:47):
I.
So I wanted to bring that up.
I wonder if it's the same thing.
I'm seeing pushback.
I don't know if you call itpushback, but some people are starting
to say everyone's doing toomany things to try to heal.
Just stop everything and just be.
And I'm like.
I'm like, no, no, no, no, no.
Because that's also not good.
And it's not enough to just bein nature as we know.

(13:09):
Seth and I have talked about that.
Or the spiritualizing of it aswell, where it's like, no, you just
need to know that you'resource energy and you're good.
Cool.
Just now, go live your life.
Oh, I wish that were true.
That'd be so easy.
We wouldn't have to be here.
Right.
So.
So why is it misunderstood?
So, I mean, the.
The basic.
This is a.

(13:30):
That's a loaded question,which I Accept, but it's.
What's so difficult is we'vegot this body, this physiology that
has a good.
So many systems, right?
Digestion, immune, endocrine,muscular, respiratory, cardiovascular,
lymphatics, fluid, neural,neural chemistries, biomechanics,

(13:55):
inner ear.
I mean, and then relationship,how we relate to people, how we relate
to the world.
So what I just said is like aquick snapshot of all the things
the autonomic nervous system governs.
When we've had a reallysignificant event that's traumatic.

(14:16):
And I'm not going to go intoall the branches today at all.
That's like on my site, peoplecan watch the branches of the nervous
system and what they are.
When we have an event, that'sscary and we don't process, gets
stuck in the physiology.
But it's not just in thenervous system.
It's in the skin, the fascia,the bones, the muscles, our breathing

(14:38):
patterns, our memories, oursense of safety in the world.
The other thing thatcomplicates it for us humans is that
our early traumas, we short itedt, early developmental traumas.
This is anything that occursin utero to about age three, some
people say age five.

(15:00):
But we know the human brain isdeveloping now, I think they say
till age 28.
Right.
So.
But really that first fiveyears of life is so critical.
And so if there is anythingthat occurs in that time that renders
that child, that infant,either in utero or out of utero,
unsafe, put into threat,questioning their own physiology,

(15:24):
we then have a situation wherethat human, I don't know the best
word.
It's like they've been tainted.
They haven't, they haven'tbeen given that pure connection,
love, nutrition, safety, safehaven, secure attachment, all those
words that people throw outthat they need.
So that when they do have anevent that say harmful or shock,

(15:46):
a shocking event like a caraccident or an injury, they can bounce
back quicker.
And so right now, what'shappening in the west is people don't
realize how dysregulated theyare in a functional way, going to
slow that down.
They don't realize how dis.
Disregulated they are in afunctional way.

(16:08):
We would call this functional freeze.
And so they're trying to workon their traumas that they know they
have.
They know they have the caraccident, they know their mother
wasn't there, the father left,there was abuse, there was alcohol,
all the things.
So they're trying to get thisshaking out, this catharsis, this
emotion.
They're trying to work withTheir connection, as Joel said, to

(16:31):
spirit source.
But what hasn't been addressedis this early imprint of unsafety.
And there's no shame in it, bythe way.
Like, I've met very few peoplethat haven't had some form of early
developmental trauma.
It's very rare.
So what I'm seeing.

(16:52):
You know what your questionyou're asked most was what is misunderstood?
I would say if I really putone layer down.
What is misunderstood is howcomplex we actually are and how we
shape shift and change basedon different circumstances.
And we were born into that.

(17:13):
You're at home with youreither functional or dysfunctional
family.
You then go to your kindergarten.
You go to first grade tosecond grade.
You get, you know,indoctrinated into that.
I know you guys know a lotabout that.
And then you have to fit in,and all the teachers are different,
and then you have bullies anyway.
So there's this, like,trajectory from when we come out

(17:35):
as humans where very rarelyare we given true opportunity to
be authentic, but alsobiological and also learn boundaries
and right from wrong.
So what is misunderstood, Ithink what's misunderstood, if I
make it really simple, is thecomplexity of it and how you cannot

(17:56):
rewrite and rewire that stuffin a year.
You can't even do that inthree years.
I mean, I'm living with a man,Seth, who you both know.
We've been together 14 years now.
He did spiritual work, everytype of spiritual work before I met
him.
He lived in the woods.
He was living the ideal lifein nature.

(18:17):
And then he got together with me.
And the poor guy still hadcomplex ptsd, Right.
Even though he had thatability to meditate, there was so
much stored survival stress,not just in his nervous system, but
his entire physiology and theposture, all these things.
But then when he started towork on this, and I'm a similar case,

(18:38):
but different, it took yearsand years and years to do true functional
rewiring of the system.
But all the systems.
So remember how I mentionedall those systems?
Digestion, immune, endocrine,skeletal muscle.
We want to.
I'm using my hands with this.
But if you consider all those,like, little circles lined up, what

(19:02):
I find is happening is peopleare trying to improve one system
because they're like, this isthe problem system.
It's my digestion, So I gottafix that.
Or let's say, oh, it's my emotions.
I've got to fix that.
Or I have to release my anger.
I got to work on that.
But then all these othersystems aren't tended, and Then they

(19:23):
don't move forward together.
So what I find is that there'sa desire to rush, to be quick, to
work on the one system that's off.
But what we have to do is getinto that root layer of the nervous
system, physiology, growingcapacity, so that all these physiological
systems and relational systemsand environmental systems go together

(19:44):
at the same time.
But to bring all those piecesalong takes like time.
Does that, does that make sense?
Yeah, it definitely does.
Yeah.
It seems like there's so muchmanaging going on as opposed to actual,
you know, healing.
That does take time.
Like you said, if I use a.

(20:06):
Fancy word, often people throwout the term window of tolerance.
And some, you may know that word.
Most people, again, if I goback to those living with say, functional
freeze or dysregulation, butit's functional, don't realize that
their actual window oftolerance is quite small.
It's like a little cubbyhole window.

(20:27):
And so building a real windowof tolerance is actually pretty boring
work, actually.
Your wife, I can mention,Sophie, you know, we were just together
in training and we weretalking about just how her term was
sneaky powerful how littletiny bits of connection to the environment,

(20:49):
little tiny bits of connectionto self tracking just one sensation
and then reconnecting to the environment.
It seems so insecurity,inconsequential and like that's nothing.
But Joel, you would know withyour, you know, babies and, and little
ones, like all it takes is onelittle connection and you just, you

(21:09):
see them shift or they see onething and they're just.
And so that like, you knowwhat that is.
It's so small little thingsmake such a big difference.
So if we think of us asadults, that's the level of small
detail we actually want towork with.

(21:31):
And as you said, you're awesome.
Most we're trying to manageall these things that are overwhelming
or, or, or hard for us.
As opposed to going back towhat would we do with a baby, what
would we want to provide aninfant connection?
Food safety.

(21:51):
And that stuff is, you know,again, back to Joel and your family.
It, it's kind of boring.
You do the same thing every day.
There's variety in there, butwhen they're infants, they need very
basic stuff.
And so I, I see people wantingto do more extravagant stuff.
And while there's a time and aplace for that, the beginning of

(22:13):
the work to go back to whatyour, your question, what is most
misunderstood is how long weneed to spend building solid foundations.
And those foundations that webuild are pretty, they're almost
invisible.
We don't see them happening.
Just like when you're raisinga child, you speak to them, you sing
to them, you show them wordson books.

(22:37):
They don't talk, they don't talk.
They start to make sound.
And then all of a sudden oneday they say a word and it's like,
right.
But it's taken years to get to that.
It's ex.
That is the nervous system atwork laying down new foundations.
So when we think of ourphysiology as adults with wounds

(23:01):
and dysregulations anddysfunctions, that's the level of
care and consistency andrepetition and smallness we want
to work with and what occurs.
And my students and clientswill say this.
I stuck with it.
It seemed really boring.
And then one day, I actuallywas able to do this.

(23:22):
I actually was able to feelwhat is a, say, a survival stress
attack, a panic attack, andfeel it, be with it, not manage it,
not try to get rid of it, nottry to ignore it.
But I ride that wave of intensity.
And I came down.
Yeah, yeah.
Because this is.
This is the thing I want toget to.
Because it's like, peoplethink that, like, nervous system

(23:44):
regulation is like being calm.
Like, I'm calm, I need to be calm.
Like, now I'm good.
Yeah.
As opposed to what you talkabout often and we've talked about
before, is like having that.
Well, increasing the window oftolerance, of building greater capacity
in that regards.
So if you want to talk more,because that's another buzzword,
like nervous systemregulation, this is going to help
you regulate your nervous system.

(24:05):
You know, you hear that allthe time, all across social media
and in copy and differentprograms people are running.
And yet what is the foundationof that?
What does it really mean?
It's not just about being calm.
Like, there are appropriateresponses to situations where you're
not calm.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Thanks for sharing that.
The other thing I'd like toadd is, like, someone.

(24:28):
I think many people willprobably hear what you just said,
said and feel like, wow, thisis just overwhelming.
This was a lifetime of work.
Healing is not instantaneous.
Not what I thought it was.
How am I ever going to get onwith my life?
Am I going to spend yearstrying to, you know, deal with this
and navigate this and maybecan even foster some kind of victim

(24:50):
mentality within an individualas well.
So, like, what would you sayto someone where it's like, how do
I do this work and get on withmy life, like, as well?
Now a short break from the episode.
What's up Guys, hope you'reenjoying this incredible episode
with Irene Lyon.
Just quickly, if you love whatwe're about, if you love these conversations

(25:11):
that we're having, then youcan take these conversations to the
next level with people whohave been in our community for a
long time, who understand ourworld, who are excited about living
meaningful, purposeful,authentic, whole lives.
And so you can dive in atFriends of the Truth, which is our
online membership community.
It's here for the truth.comforward slash, f o T T.

(25:33):
And when you become a member,you get five live calls per month,
sometimes more.
And you get an incredibleexclusive telegram membership community
where we're alwaysinteracting, we're always engaged,
people are dropping knowledge,sharing insights and really just
inspiring one another to be better.

(25:53):
And this month I want tohighlight that we have Tiziano Squ
from a previous episode, whois a family constellations expert,
coming in to join our membersfor a live interactive session with
those who decide to dive in.
We also have two new calls onthe slate, one with astrologer Mellie

(26:15):
Newbeck and one featuring mywife, Alyssa Rafidi, who will be
hosting a women's circle forthe women and mothers in the group.
$17 per month.
That's all it is.
Herefor the truth.comfot backto the episode.
I'm going to use an examplethat parallels this.

(26:36):
So I was in the fitnessindustry for quite a while, teaching
people how to get fit, loseweight, all those things.
Trained for marathons.
I worked with athletes.
You take someone and anybodywho's gotten fit knows this and t
taking care of their healthand all that, you don't have those
shifts happen in a week, right?

(26:58):
So let's say you have to lose50 pounds, you're diabetic and you
have osteoporosis and yourdiet is terrible and your doctor
just said if you don't cleanup your system, you're going to die
soon.
Like being very blatant.
But we know this is a, acommon thing, especially in the West.
That person who's given that,you know, almost like if you don't

(27:20):
do this, you're going to, it'snot going to be good.
They have to have a lot ofdiligence to go, okay, I'm going
to do this the way in which itwill stick.
As opposed to the diet fads, right?
As opposed to going and tryingto kill my body with CrossFit or

(27:41):
something like that.
Slow, consistent building.
You can't just go out and do atwo hour run.
You have to start with Fiveminutes of walking, it's true.
A couple times a day, andthat's going to feel like nothing.
And then the next month, youmight add a little bit more and a
little bit more, you mightclean up one thing in your diet.

(28:03):
Because again, we've seen whenpeople try to clean up their diet,
like all the junk food out, right?
Only healthy, whole foods, andthen there's like a relapse.
It's the same with addictionsto, say, alcohol.
And that is like the coldturkey thing works for some people.
But, you know, you can'ttypically do that when someone's
on a heavy narcotic.

(28:24):
You have to taper them offbecause the system's gotten used
to it.
So if we use the example ofexercise and getting our body physically
fit again, and it doesn'thappen overnight, and it certainly
doesn't happen in a year.
Anybody who's really takentime to rebuild their body, even
after, after seeing an injury,it can take years.
And so the nervous system isthe same way.

(28:45):
Joel and I think you two knowthat is what's happened is we've
medicalized trauma as acondition that needs to be treated.
Like you have an infection andmaybe you, maybe you do need to take
some antibiotics.
You might need to get thatabscess lanced and, you know, stitched
up and, and then it's betterand it's been treated.

(29:09):
What's happened is we've seenthings like neurological conditions,
autoimmune conditions, mental illness.
I say that with air quotesbecause we know it's a physiological
illness.
It's not typically a psyche base.
The psyche gets impacted dueto the dysregulation of the nervous
system.
So we have all of theseconditions that have been connected

(29:31):
through some pretty goodresearch, the ACE study, to this
dysregulation of the systemfrom a very young age.
But because we've labeled themas conditions, syndromes, I think,
I think I'm just theorizing here.
The general populace thinks,ah, this is a meta condition.
I can treat it with somebreath work, meditation.

(29:52):
My doctor told me to go dosome breath work.
My doctor told me to go andget some therapy or do some emdr.
And so people go thinking,okay, I'm just going to do 10 sessions
of this thing.
Just like someone might cometo see me for 10 sessions of somatic
experiencing.
We're not going to solve alifetime of dysregulation in 10 sessions.

(30:13):
Just like when I was in myfitness training days, someone who
comes to me with severechronic health condition and Say
significantly overweight.
We're not going to get themperfect in 10 personal training sessions.
I mean, we know that.
So that's what I would say.
I would say we have to seethis is not conditions that we're

(30:35):
trying to treat.
We're trying to treat anecosystem, the human body that has
been given the wrong information.
And we have to retrain it tobe in that body, which can take time,
especially when the body hasbeen not a good place to be in.
We also have to retrain it toconnect to the environment, because

(30:58):
we live in the environment andtypically it was the environment
that caused us harm.
Right.
Usually it's people, parents,perpetrators, and then we have to
connect the two.
And often what occurs in a lotof, you know, legit somatic classes,
as they leave out theenvironment and they leave out listening

(31:19):
to the body and what it canand cannot handle.
And so we push, we override.
And we see that with fitness,if I go back, like, a person will
be like, oh, yeah, I'm justgonna go and do five exercise classes
a week.
I've never done anything in my life.
And what happens?
They get hurt, they're in painand then they.

(31:40):
Pain, no gain, Irene.
No pain, no gain.
I know.
And then they don't go backbecause maybe they, you know, pulled
a tendon or maybe, you know,I've done that.
I was in fitness, where, youknow, you, you do squats so long,
long, you go for a hike thatyou can't even sit on the bloody
toilet because your legs areso sore.
Like, if so what's happening?
I think, I don't think.

(32:01):
I know because I've seen it.
We have to change thementality of what it means to heal
trauma.
It's not a thing to be fixed,to be treated.
It really is a lifestyle thing.
Just like if someone, say,reaches their goal weight, they get
their muscles back, theirblood chemistry is better, they don't
have pre diabetes, they.
And then they go, I've reachedit, I'm going to stop and I'm going

(32:25):
to now not move.
I'm going to stop going to thegym, I'm going to stop eating healthy
food.
It will revert.
Now the difference, though,this is the good news.
The difference with gainingregulation of the nervous system
because of the neuroplasticchannels and the way the system works,
when you do build thatfoundation and it's strong, it's

(32:48):
there.
And then what happens afterthat are tweaks and nuances.
Then you might have time towork on that arm break that Happened
when you were 7 years old inthe monkey bars, then you might have
time to work on that emotionalthing that, you know, you're carrying
from when your professor atgrad school screamed at you, you

(33:11):
know, in front of your peers,and you feel shame because you.
You screwed up.
But that those sort of shocktraumas get healed a lot faster when
we have a solid foundation andwe actually have real window of tolerance.
But it, again, I.
I always go back to theexercise example because that just

(33:32):
really paints the picture.
And anybody who's gotten fit,they know, yeah, it takes a lot of
work.
But then what occurs is youactually start to feel good when
you exercise.
You actually start to feelgood when you eat better.
And so when people get betterlifestyle behaviors on board that
help their nervous system,they go, you know what?
I'm not going to go to thatthing, that social gathering that

(33:54):
when I come back from, I justfeel gross and drained.
That doesn't serve me right.
Boundaries start to shift, andI've seen this in my students.
Like, they literally start tocrave movement, crave healthy food,
because the system wants that.
I'll stop talking for a moment.
Tell me if that makes sense.

(34:14):
No, it does make sense.
I mean, I think people gainmore discernment as they build more
capacity within their nervous system.
There's more choices availableto them.
Yeah, well, the world doesn'tlook like something you have to control
anymore.
So when we're.
When we're stuck in a loop ofsevere dysregulation and may be functional,

(34:35):
and we have a very smallwindow of tolerance, we have to control
things.
And this is why OCD is aclassic byproduct of dysregulation.
Right.
I have to control.
Same with narcissism.
I've got to control everythingin my life, even down to my routine.
And when I buy groceries andwhat I buy because it.

(34:57):
It gives a sense of ease.
The trouble with that is thenif something throws our routine off
and we can't do our normal,everyday things that keep us feeling
safe, we lose it.
We either shut down more or weget highly activated.
We saw this during COVID right?

(35:18):
People's routines got thrownoff and everybody went crazy.
Not everyone, but many people did.
It's legit.
What occurred there was fear.
I can't do exactly what I doevery day.
So a big part of gaining realregulation is being able to let go
of that control and live in astate of flow.

(35:43):
Don't love that word anymorebecause it's been kind of hijacked
too.
But a state of just ease withwhat comes.
And it does not mean to goback to your thing about calm.
Right.
It might mean that we can calmourselves down, but it.
Here's the thing.
We want to be able to bringourselves out of activation.
So fight flight withoutneeding to do something.

(36:07):
That's what your kids arelearning right now, Joel.
They're learning how to findself regulation without needing their
blankie or a hug.
Right.
That is growing real regulation.
And what people have, I thinkmistaken regulation with is a state
shift in the nervous system.
So they might do the breathwork, the cold plunge, the meditation,

(36:28):
the qigong, but all thesethings are good.
Right.
I actually do all those thingsmyself, but as a practice for a therapeutic
effect.
But to try to use an outsidething and a behavior to grow regulation
doesn't happen.
So when someone says, oh, Ifeel so much more regulated now after
doing that breath worksession, chances are they feel a

(36:52):
shift in activation to more deactivation.
But if they need that sessionto come down, they're not regulated.
It isn't growing regulation.
Yeah, it makes sense.
You know, it's like if you'redriving and someone cuts you off.
I always love bringing upthese examples of being cut off.
Yeah.
Like you can have an initial reaction.

(37:13):
And you will because youalmost die.
Yeah.
But then if you're staying inthat state for the next 24 hours,
there's probably an issuethere because the threat left once
you didn't get into theaccident and you're driving along
on the highway and everythingis quote unquote fine again.
Yeah, you take it personally too.
But there is a sense of valuein terms of knowing myself, feeling

(37:35):
oneself dysregulated, knowingthat there's certain tools available
to me that can help meregulate and having the self awareness
to be like, hang on, let menow prioritize something else.
Even though it is, you know,maybe a breath work session or a
massage or whatever it mightbe like what's, what's the value
in that?
In this huge value Realquickly though.

(37:56):
But is it, is the use of thelanguage, like helping me regulate?
Is that not even like accurate?
Should it be another word likeit's helped me shift like my state
as opposed to, you know, I'mnow regulated.
But what, but what about theawareness of what my body needs?
Like my system is, you know, like.
So there's two pieces to that.
I would, I would replaceregulate with resource.

(38:19):
So I'm going to, I need to, Ineed to take a hot bath because I
Need to resource myself.
I need to do a bit ofbreathing to center and reason.
It's a resource.
So you're using a tool, amovement, a practice, a song, you
know, Netflix, you know,person, a person, a person, a dog,

(38:41):
nature.
Right.
That is resourcing me andbringing me back into my center and
then my system can come down.
Yeah, right.
So like come even.
So what about like even likeclassic nervous system resources
like self hug, tapping, orienting.
Yeah, like that's.
Is that, that's resourcing asopposed to regulating?
Is that.

(39:01):
Yep.
So this is where again back toyour first question.
You're awesome.
Was the misunderstanding.
So this is where it's.
Again, I'm going to use thebaby as an example because it's the
perfect one.
Little one cries, pick up, youfigure out what they need.
Are they hungry?
Are they tired, are they hot,are they cold?

(39:22):
Do they not like a person whojust walked in the room you attune,
you attend to and then theycome out of their activation.
Now one connection with aninfant does not build full self regulation
obviously.
But what does build selfregulation is that constant co regulation

(39:45):
with you or mom or oldersister and.
And then over time I'm usingmy hands, it's like layering, like
it's like baklava.
Right.
Like it's like thin layers.
Thin layers.
And that builds and theneventually just like the speaking,

(40:05):
all that resourcing, all thatattunement, all that co regulation
with a human nature, it thencreates regulation.
And what happens is we knowwhen we finally have, well we could
say better, more robustregulation when we feel that cry.
And this will happen with yourgirls for example, and they know

(40:29):
how to be with that discomfortand process it on their own.
It doesn't mean that we won'tget frustrated, right.
We won't get anger on the road.
But we can digest the survivalphysiology, feel it, know what it
is, connect to the body, not disconnect.
And then it recycles asopposed to oh, I'm so stressed, I

(40:53):
need to go to that thing.
So to your, to your point,Joel, for someone who doesn't yet
have true window of tolerance,that is wide, a wide window and doesn't
have better, more robust regulation.
Yeah, we want them to go to a resource.
I always say to people, Iwould rather you do deep breathing

(41:13):
than hit your kid.
Right.
Like it's, it's a no brainer.
But if there's that impulse towant to act out, then that's a sign.
Okay.
If it goes past that, what wewould call healthy aggression.
Right.
And it goes into kind of rage.
It's like, okay, there stillisn't regulation there.

(41:34):
We still need to work on that.
But in the meantime, yeah, I'mgoing to go into the sauna, I'm going
to do some breath work, I'mgoing to do some qigong.
So this is where there's a lotof contextual nuance.
It can't be black and white because.
Yeah, in my teachings, I teachresourcing, I teach orienting, I
teach containment, I teachmovement, I teach sound.

(41:56):
All in service of that persongetting better connected to self
and the environment.
And that's what builds thecapacity, which then builds the regulation,
which then builds the realwindow of tolerance.
Yeah.
Can you talk more abouthealthy aggression?
Maybe we've covered.
It is podcast, but it'ssomething that I talk about often.

(42:16):
We bring it up in our groupcoaching program, Rise heard Sophie
and I discuss it.
And it's something that'shelped me because I'm like a Jersey
Greek, like, sometimes, youknow, And I have my own history of
shit that happened to me.
But if I feel disrespected orsome injustice, like, there is like
a deep rage that can sometimes come.
Come inside me.
And I found like, theseexercises, like.

(42:37):
Like squeezing arms or likeringing a towel, or even when I'm
driving, like, squeezing thefreaking steering wheel and letting
out some sounds like I go fromlike a 10, like, ready to, like,
explode.
And I just.
Yeah, I down regulate, youknow, or if that's the right term
to use, I downgrade becauseit's like I'm allowing myself to
experience the anger in a.

(42:58):
In a healthy way where I'mnot, like, trying to follow someone
home and like, punch them inthe face because they cut me off
or punch someone out in public.
It's just I.
I want to experience that.
The experience of being anger,but angry but in a way that's like,
not causing damage.
I mean, you just said it.
I'm glad.
I'm glad you mentioned bakava.

(43:18):
Another great Middle Easternidea that Drake stole.
Yeah, he was holding on to that.
Another holding on to thatjoke until he had a moment.
It's like four minutes later.
Something there.
So what's the real history of baklava?
Right away, and I was going tosay something.
I was like, what is.
So he.
First.
You cut it out for like fiveseconds, then, oh, I froze.

(43:40):
If you want to repeat it, you can.
No, it's okay.
I was just saying I wonderwhen one of us was going to make
a joke about, like, whether ornot Bilo was a Greek or.
Anyways, back to healthy aggression.
No, you.
You nailed it.
There's not much more to say.
The thing is that we don'tsuppress it and we don't swallow

(44:02):
it, but we want to contain itand move it out.
So in other words, you're right.
If you get that person thatcuts you off in traffic and you feel
like you'll feel a heatthrough the body and you'll feel
like it's like you want tofight and you want it.
And of course, you're in this vehicle.
So what a perfect way to feelspeed and, you know, slam on the.

(44:25):
Or put the gas on.
But of course, that's not verysocial in a healthy way.
So you squeeze the steeringwheel, you let that roar out.
Yeah, because trust me, I'vedone that.
I'll, like, shake it.
But the key is that you wantit to go through the whole system.
You don't want to.
You don't want to suppress it now.

(44:46):
Yeah, you're right.
If you were to be like, I gotto keep that in, then you're right.
You might.
Something else might happen later.
You might snap at your wifelater for no reason.
Right?
You might snap at your kidslater for no reason.
So it's these unresolvedsensorial, emotional, behavioral

(45:06):
responses.
Because anger is an emotion,but it's really a survival strategy.
It's fighting, right?
It's the fight of the fight.
Flight, freeze.
Someone just does something tome that's not good.
I need to fight them.
I need to kill them.
Right?
And so if we think of theamount of times a human as a child,

(45:29):
as a toddler, as a.
As an infant, as a teenager,wanted to express healthy aggression
because it starts in infancywhen they start pulling hair and
hounding.
And that's.
That's not because they're angry.
It's because they're feelingtheir life force energy, right?
They're.
They're feeling, I, I'm strong.

(45:50):
Right.
And how they're met by theirprimary caregiver with that strength
will determine how that setsin their system.
So when your little babystarts pulling, we want to, like,
play with them and encouragethat strength in a healthy way.
But often what occurs, I neversaw this, but Peter Levine would
say, oh, yeah, mothers thatdon't have comfort with their own

(46:11):
aggression and strength, whentheir baby starts to do that, they
actually will punish the baby.
They'll put the baby down,they'll disconnect from the baby
because they think this Babyis trying to hurt them.
And that, again, shows howlittle, not little, but how disconnected
we are with our own physiology.

(46:31):
So, yeah, we want to move it out.
It's, it's.
And then it, it's not something.
It's not as easy as justsaying to something, someone, okay,
you've got anger issues.
You've got stored anger.
Take a towel and squeeze it.
Yeah, we can do that, but wehave to connect.
And I teach this intensivelyin my courses.
We have to teach the internal connection.

(46:52):
The fire has to get brought up organically.
And then we move the.
The squeeze, the punch, the stomp.
But what often occurs is in alot of, we could say retreats, where
they're trying to be catharticand screaming and hitting things
is.
They're missing the foundationof sensing the internal physiology.

(47:15):
Yeah.
Otherwise it's just a good movement.
Right.
There's nothing wrong withboxing and getting physical.
That's good.
And often people mistake ahealing because they feel better,
because they got theirendorphins going and they got the
blood flowing.
But then they find out in amonth later, oh, I'm still snapping

(47:36):
at my wife.
I'm still snapping at my husband.
Why am I still irritated byeverything that occurs, that doesn't
go my way?
It's like, ah, you didn'treally work on that deep anger.
You just got the movement ofanger out.
Yeah.
Well, not the.
But not the connection to theemotion and the initial harm.
Yeah.
Of feeling threatened andfeeling helpless.

(47:59):
Yeah.
And a lot of that, like, bigmovements, cathartic stuff just feels
a lot faster than doingsomething more subtle like, like
squeezing a towel and then.
But then for a little bit, andthen coming back to your inner life,
like what's happening in yourbody, then going back to it and then
coming back.
You know, I think that backand forth process is what's important.

(48:20):
And I'm very blessed that, youknow, I have a wife that knows this
work, play with that, because,you know, we can support one another.
I mean, there are times where,like, you know, we're driving together
and she's the one, like, wouldyou like to grab the steering wheel?
Or like, I'm with her and Ikind of give her my wrist and I like,
would you like to squeeze my wrist?
Yeah.
On my forearm?
Yeah, yeah.
Over here.
And it's just been.

(48:41):
It's just really cool to havethat experience and then to notice
it, to like, come back andlike, what feels differently than,
you know, three, 10 secondsago, you know, and to kind of have
that that intrapersonalrelationship with sensation and the
nuance of my being is, hasbeen a gift.

(49:03):
What is the relationship?
And I know your Osmos has alot to say on this as well between,
like, say, psychologicalshadow work from a Jungian perspective
and the nervous system.
Yeah, I mean, they intertwine.
I'm not studied in Jung, butI've definitely come across more
of his teachings really thelast two years.

(49:24):
And the shadow work is there.
It's the part of us thathasn't been able to express those
fight, flight, flee, freeze,shut down urges.
And so, you know, we can sayit's the, the dark side of us that
wants to kill, that wants toscream, that wants to rage, and we

(49:50):
have to bring the body into it.
And so I think that's where,again, you know, Peter, for example,
Levine has deep respect forJung and Freud.
And.
But then the other people thatcame onto the scene, like William
Reich, that talked about thebody and the armoring of the body
and the tissues, and then IdaRolf coming in like, you've got to

(50:12):
break the fascia up and thenFeldenkrais, you've got to teach
the movement.
You know, this is, this is thepart that I think if we go back to
the macro, why people are soconfused is they're trying to pick
one method.
And I'm going to just work onthis method.
I'm just going to dopsychoanalysis, dreamwork, for example.
Nothing wrong with that.

(50:32):
But if it's not gettingintegrated into the physiology and
these core unconscioussurvival mechanisms, the, the technical
word is the implicit memorythat's stored in the body, the stored
procedural memory, if thatisn't getting tapped into, that desire
to punch or run or to feel thecollapse, we're so smart, we can

(50:55):
therapize the shit out ofourselves, like just over and over
and over again and analyze.
But it's got to connect to thesurvival strategies that never got
to be executed.
And so I think a greatpsychoanalyst in conjunction with
a somatic practitioner who'sgood in connection with a good movement

(51:18):
practice of say, tai chi,qigong, Feldenkrais, understanding
breath, understanding healthyfood, like toxin removal, it all
has to come together.
And I think what has occurred is.
I just got this question theother day because I did a series
of stories on why it isn'tenough to just feel our emotions,

(51:39):
it's not just enough to be cathartic.
Someone said, well, are yousaying then that se somatic experiencing
isn't enough to heal trauma?
And I kind of said, well, it Depends.
Depends if that person hasearly trauma, because that model
doesn't work with early trauma.
It depends if that person hasa neurological issue due to something
from birth.

(52:00):
They might need a Feldenkraispractitioner in conjunction with
that.
And so I think this sort ofumbrella of these methodologies are
being treated too individuallyand they have to blend together.
This is why, you know, Peter,he didn't just develop se, because

(52:22):
it just came.
It's like he had been studyingFreud and Jung and Wright and he
was a Rolfer, he was a body worker.
He wasn't a psychologist.
People think he's a psychiatrist.
It's so funny.
It's like, no, no, no.
That man was a biophysicistand a body worker doing breath work
in Berkeley.
Right.
And a lot of the high levelsomatic teachers have a lineage of

(52:48):
bodywork.
Kathy Kane wrote the book onortho bionomy.
You know, my instructor, SteveHoskinson didn't come from bodywork,
but he was into aikido, right.
Martial art arts.
And so anyway, that's a longway of saying Joel, it's all valid.
It comes down to can theperson, the person's working with,

(53:13):
do they have enough skill andrepertoire to do more than one thing?
And what I'm seeing, becausethere's so many people being pumped
out through the SE trainingsand I went through the training,
it was a great training, but Icame in with so much information
in my body and in my brainbefore that training, so I could
integrate what was occurring.

(53:33):
A lot of people are going tothat training with no body work experience,
no movement experience.
They don't know the muscles.
And then they watch Peter do ademo with the trapezius muscle muscles
and the scalenes and the skeleton.
And everybody's confusedbecause they haven't been taught
about that physiology and that anatomy.

(53:55):
And then they leave thinkingthey know what to do with a client,
but they actually don't knowwhat to do.
Yeah, that's a, that's a veryquick example of.
I think the issue we're seeingright now is people think that our
profession is a profession.
It is not a profession yet.
It's the beginning of a profession.

(54:17):
Just like medicine or I alwaysuse the example of surgery.
You know, surgery is a miracle.
It saves lives.
You know, I wouldn't bewalking if it wasn't for orthopedic
surgery with my, my injuries.
But that didn't get created ina hundred years.
It didn't.
If you go back to the historyof medicine, it was pretty archaic

(54:39):
and pretty bad at the beginning.
And it got.
It got developed.
It got developed with peopletalking, people researching, people
experimenting, people dying.
Right.
Oops.
Shouldn't have done that.
So we're in that right nowwith the somatic stuff and the nervous

(54:59):
system stuff and theneuroplasticity stuff.
We're kind of swimming in thesea of newness.
And everybody is thinking, oh,I'm that expert, because I've done
one course.
You might know a little bit.
But the other thing I'velearned, this is where the surgery
example doesn't actually translate.
You can have a surgeon who isso good at their work, but they're

(55:22):
completely dysregulated.
If you've ever had a surgeonwith a bad bedside manner and no
connection, it doesn't matter.
As long as they know how tofix the internal, you're golden,
right?
With doing somatic nervous system.
I call it scientific work.
The person offering the workor guiding the.

(55:46):
The person who's coming to seethem has to be fully in their body
and regulated, at least morethan the person coming to them.
Because it's your somaticphysiology, your body that tells
you what to do with the personyou're working with.
You cannot have a list of,okay, I'm going to orient them and

(56:07):
then I'm going to get them todo a vu sound.
And then I'm going to get themto squeeze when it looks like they're
getting a little activated.
You can't think throughsomatic work.
You have to know what to dointernally, but you also have to
have this theory.
It's a very complex systemdoing this higher level of work with
people.

(56:28):
And it's hard to describe it.
And what I think is happening,I don't think.
I know.
And I know your osmos.
You were in some trainingswhere you saw the dysregulation and
what was going on.
I don't think most peopleunderstand that they're not regulated
because they have the tools tocalm themselves down.
They have the resources.

(56:50):
But yeah, I'll stop.
I want to make sure I'm making sense.
And if you have any pieces,because it's.
We're in a really interesting time.
I kind of call it the Wild West.
It is the wild, wild West.
It is new, like you said, it'sso new.
Like it's.
It's wild.
And I.
I'm really grateful that I was.

(57:10):
I have a history of body work.
Before I did the three year with.
I didn't get my.
I didn't get my scp.
Label because I didn't followthrough with hours and things like
that.
But it definitely was abenefit to have that understanding
of the body and the felt senseof receiving tons of body work and
giving lots of body work and.

(57:30):
As opposed to, you know, justcoming in without that.
Yeah, yeah.
I want to ask you this becausea lot of the cathartic stuff, like,
for me, I like really deepbody work.
I like going into the painthat transforms.
I have a bruise on my armright now from cupping the other
day.
Yeah.
And.
And it comes from a school of,like, looking at the body as a shadow.

(57:53):
You know, I love psychology.
You brought up names of peoplethat have been a influence to me,
whether it's like, Lauen Young.
And so, you know, I think fora lot of this stuff, you have to
have a certain level ofcapacity built within you to do this
more, quote, unquote, intensework you do.

(58:13):
Like, I've been someone again,it's been a process for sure, getting
to it.
But, like, when I'm workingwith a practitioner, they're.
They're crushing me to a degree.
But I'm, like, sitting.
I'm, like, with it.
I'm.
I'm.
I feel like I'm there with the pain.
I'm.
And so is transformational.
It has been transformationalfor me.
It has caused such a deepimpact in how I relate to self and

(58:35):
others by doing that kind ofdeeper, cathartic work.
But I think I had to build toget to that place.
What do you say about that?
Absolutely.
It.
It.
Again, there's nothing wrongwith really deep cathartic work.
Rolfing work, fascia work,even emotional work.
Like, getting to this placeof, like, crying and grieving so

(59:00):
bad that your stomach isretching and you've just got snot,
like, all over your face andyou're red and you're just in it.
But you're in it and you'refully involved in it.
And it's not scary getting tothat level of being able to reach,
because when you get to that,if I use that example of, like, retching

(59:21):
and crying, like, you have tobe in your guts, like, to use chakras
and.
And diaphragms.
Like, you've got to be in thepelvic, in the root, but in the sacral,
in the solar plexus, in theheart and the throat, all those energy
channels, all thoseosteopathic diaphragm levels, which
is more my form of work, haveto be open, because if one is closed,

(59:45):
there's gonna it's like alittle, it's not gonna go through.
And if you've ever had bodywork and then you get a headache
afterwards, like this is acommon thing, that's usually a sign
that there's something thatwas blocked and the energy and the
fluids have gotten stuck.
And usually it's top of thehead, right?
You get all this great work onyour shoulders and neck or pelvis

(01:00:05):
and then you're like, you'relike sore in your head and it's because
that hasn't been opened.
So to go back to what you saidabout capacity and the person, the
person doing the work again, Ihave a high standard for my students.
Like they need to be not justin their emotions and sensations,

(01:00:28):
but be ready for when a clientscreams at them or has a rage of
like fight energy come outbecause they finally unlocked the
desire to kill, you know, theperson who was raping them.
And if, if the person sittingon the other side, the, the practitioner
is afraid of their own lifeforce energy, they're going to crumble.

(01:00:54):
And then the person who's, Ineed to kill that person, right?
The person who's all of asudden feeling this organic energy
of fight energy is going tosee the therapist be afraid you've
destroyed the session.
Yeah, you're right.
And, and then that person goesinto shame.

(01:01:14):
I shouldn't have been angry.
I'm so sorry.
And what occurs is you startto take care of your therapist and
the moment that happens, and Idon't like to call it therapist practitioner.
And so that's where the levelof, of deep body knowledge that a
true, again I'm calling itscientific practitioner.
That's what I'm trainingpeople to be.

(01:01:35):
We could call them somatic practitioners.
The level of nuance andintegration and openness and sensei
and sensitivity is so important.
Like you need to be able topick up a baby and soothe it and
know exactly what it needs,but also be able to roar like a lion
and then come down and bearticulate with your talk and connect

(01:01:58):
and like, you know, make a hamsandwich and just chill out at the
end of the day, right?
There needs to be this abilityto have this is window of tolerance.
And a really good practitionercan have all those things.
They can just sit and talk, asJoel said about the shadow, you know,
side of things, hatred towardsthe world, towards government, pollution,

(01:02:19):
all the things, but then comeback to the body and not get stuck
in the awfulizing, but thenalso be able to, you know, give touch
that's calm and connected sothat's sort of my speech on.
Yeah, I want to add.
I want to say something.
Yeah, I want to.
Thank you.
I want to say something realquick because I love that you said
that about the practitionerhaving the capacity.

(01:02:42):
Yeah.
Because in.
In my first foray, I guess,into deeper personal development
work.
Yeah.
I don't know.
In my 20s, I was trained in asystem called voice dialogue, the
psychology of selves and theaware egos.
It's by psychologists, doctorsHal and Sidra Stone.
Anyways, it's.
It's a form of parts work andit's where you're dialoguing with
different people and they moveinto different parts of the room
and embody different parts of them.

(01:03:03):
And they always used to saythat if you haven't as the.
As the facilitator, if youhaven't embodied a certain part that
they're going into, it's goingto be much more challenging because
you almost want to induct itin yourself to allow it to come further
out in the person you're with.
Yeah.
And so.
Yeah, because I can onlyimagine, like, if someone steps into

(01:03:23):
like the killer part of themand then the person facilitating
is like, couldn't even go there.
I mean, you're.
The person's gonna know that.
Yeah.
And it's this.
The session isn't going to goas deep and then they're not going
to be able to embody it fully.
And so it's like, I mean, all.
This is about safety, right?
It's all about safety.
Like the person going thereneeds to feel safe in the space that

(01:03:45):
they're allowed to go thereand that they can go there.
Whether it's, you know, yourexample with the nervous system practitioner
or with the password practitioner.
I want to ask what role do thepeople that you primarily hang around
with play in the state of yournervous system?
Because I think about myjourney personally, and I wouldn't

(01:04:08):
say I've done a tons ofintentional specific guided nervous
system work.
I've done some and stuff.
But I feel like, for example,say when your ass.
Mos and I first met, andprobably even now to some degree,
Erasmus had done a fair bit ofthis work I'd say is definitely back
in 2021, a lot more regulatedthan I would have been for sure.

(01:04:32):
And I feel like just throughrelationship with your osmosis, my
nervous system in a sense hasevolved or morphed and has, you know,
become more expanded in some capacity.
And then I think also likerearing children, you know, like
the.
What kind of nervous systemyou model to those kids obviously
has a large impact as well.

(01:04:53):
So I just wonder if you canspeak on that in some capacity and
like, what you witness, whatyou observe through other people,
through the people you'reprimarily, primarily around, like,
what impact that has in, Iguess, how your nervous system is.
It's a huge impact.
So I'll answer this questionkind of going backwards.
The people that I've witnessedwho don't get better stay with dysfunctional

(01:05:17):
and toxic partners, full stop.
Yeah, I saw that also when Iwas assisting in SE practitioners
who had.
Usually it was the womenbecause it's more women, girls in
the SE world.
It's changing.

(01:05:38):
But you could sense this kindof sadness in some of the practitioners
who were assisting becausetheir husbands weren't into the work.
They would say, oh, theysupport me.
They don't mind me coming here.
But it was more of a supportfrom a financial point of view, a
time management managementpoint of view.
Yeah, you can go away and havefun with your friends and your colleagues.

(01:06:00):
I'll take care of the kids,I'll do all the things.
But they're not supporting itat a physiological, energetic level.
And I actually think that alot of the folks who I have seen
in the circuit, and maybe I'llgo to hell for saying this, but like,
they stay in that circuit andvolunteer their time for free over
and over again because they'rein a field that is supportive of

(01:06:24):
their physiology when they'rein that SE training and it's the
only place they can get itbecause they're not getting it at
home.
So I just wanted to put thatout there for the record, because
I have again seen thepractitioners who don't have a really
solid environment at home andhave their partner doing this work

(01:06:46):
with them like you guys can doit doesn't create full regulation
in that practitioner.
There's always going to be alittle bit of them that is not quite
able to let it loose whenthey're at home.
And that isn't going to breedfull regulation if you're having
to constantly monitor youremotions, your sounds, you make gas

(01:07:11):
that you pass, you know, beinggrumpy and not having the person
take it personally.
So to go back to what yousaid, Joel, I mean, yeah, you are
more regulated than when I metyou a while ago.
And that's great.
And I, I thank you for saying that.
And it's because you two havesuch a solid relationship.
There's safety in being ableto talk and connect and have fun

(01:07:33):
and, and be in family life,you know, together.
So that is going to build.
Just like your little girlsare going to build their regulation,
because you and Alyssa arethere like solid rocks, showing them
consistency.
And so for you two, there's consistency.
You've been doing thisconsistently for many years, so that.
That builds what we call CO regulation.

(01:07:55):
And it is at the nervoussystem level, it's harnessing that
part of our vagus nerve thatsees another person and sees that
they're safe and sees thatthey're kind and they're not going
to freak out when we don'tagree with them.
Because I'm sure you two havehad disagreements, I would hope,
right.
About things.
That's life.

(01:08:16):
Mainly over backgammon.
Totally.
Well, I understand that.
Why do you keep killing me?
So.
So.
But.
But I have the crown right now.
I have the trophy.
I just want to let everyone know.
We'll see how this happens.
We'll have to play one day.
It's my favorite game too.
Oh, amazing.
But that's what I'm saying is,like, Seth and I can play backgammon

(01:08:37):
and, like, take the piss outof each other, but it's in.
It's in connection.
Right?
And so you're completely right.
Having good connection is essential.
And feeling that safety,because you mentioned safety, Joel,
and another person is huge.
What I would say is thatsafety is often the last thing to

(01:08:58):
come on board at the nervoussystem level.
And a lot of people will say,oh, I need to create a safe space,
or this workshop is a safe space.
You can have the space as safeas as possible, boarded up with,
you know, steel, whatever,guards outside in a moat and dragons.

(01:09:22):
And someone who has gotdysregulation won't.
Won't even know that that'sthere because it's cellular.
And so building that cellularsafety has to happen internally.
The practitioner or thefacilitators say of.
Let's talk about a groupworkshop can make sure that as many
things are good.

(01:09:44):
So that there is thatcontainment and that's running workshops
is a whole other topic in itself.
Because.
Just because you say it's asafe space, typically, I'll be really
honest, when I hear peoplesay, oh, yeah, I'm creating a safe
space for this workshop.
It's like a red flag.
It just.
It just is.

(01:10:05):
I would never say I create asafe space at my workshops.
I would say I show up with myteam and people who I know are regulated.
And we have a plan, we have asystem, we have boundaries.
And that implies that we'rethinking of safety.
But, you know, Sophie can confirm.
I've never said, you know,when we go into group, we're creating

(01:10:27):
a safe space.
We're just creating aregulated space and how that student
interprets that they'll feelwhen, you know, we start on time,
we come back on time, we givethem food.
When we say we were going togive them food, we say we're going
to have a break.
When we say we're going tohave a break, it's the action that

(01:10:47):
creates the safety.
Just like the kids need thatroutine, right.
It keeps them in check.
And then you might deviate alittle bit and then it kind of puts
a little bit of a jiggle inthe system, but you don't want it
to jiggle so far off that thenthey're like, what's just happened?
And then you come back.
Right.

(01:11:08):
So when you really comparebringing up children and the need
for their consistency,routine, safety, nurture to adult
trauma work, it, it, it justaligns so beautifully, I think, because
that's what we're trying to create.

(01:11:28):
We're trying to create thatregulation that never got created,
typically.
Yeah, that was super valuable.
Thank you so much.
And like, you mean, youmentioned, like, people start doing
this work and then all of asudden the way they view their relationships
changes.
You know, more dissonance iscreated within the household, et
cetera.
And to me, like, that's kindof synonymous with any genuine self

(01:11:53):
work.
And it's kind of what realreality creation is.
Like.
You do this work, you changeon a cellular level, you know, on
a psychic level, then thereality has no choice but to kind
of morph in order to matchwhat you're kind of resonating outwards
into the world, unless it doesn't.

(01:12:14):
And then that's when you haveto change your environment.
So I guess that would be, you know.
Yeah.
If you're.
And this is what it comes downto, being with someone who challenges
you is different than someonewho's toxic or abusive.
So granted, you know, thepeople you're around are good, decent
people that want the best foryou, then.

(01:12:35):
Yes.
What I've seen is that, Imean, we have such amazing stories.
Joel, to piggyback on what youjust said, where adults, people that
have adult children, so do the work.
So these are people in their60s, 70s, are doing this work and

(01:12:55):
they don't tell their childrenthat they're doing this work because
they keep it for themselves.
And then they'll notice thattheir children or their son or daughter
spontaneously calls them andhas A different tone.
Or they start saying, oh, Ijust came across this nervous system
stuff.
I thought I'd maybe work onsome of my stuff.

(01:13:18):
And.
And the parent is justdumbfounded because they kept.
It just shows that that field,that quantum field is there, rippling.
And, you know, the other daywe were talking about an older client
that Seth has.
And, you know, this person isjust so dedicated to healing.

(01:13:39):
And a lot of people wouldthink, what's the point?
You're like, old, you know,you've got all these chronic issues.
It's like, just be comfortableand live your life.
But someone said, someone whowe know who has a more Buddhist mentality
said, no, it's so good.
This person is so dedicated.
And this is all they're doingwith all their savings.
You know, they don't havekids, they don't have a partner.

(01:14:00):
I believe in reincarnation.
I believe in a soul.
And this friend of ours who'sgot a more Buddhist mentality said,
just think, when this personpasses and that soul goes to another
human, that other, that nexthuman is going to be so, so much
better off, if we want to callit that.
They're going to be moreevolved, more regulated because they

(01:14:20):
did all this healing work inthis lifetime.
So for those that believe inthe, you know, the continuation of
soul, doing this work, even atany age is important.
But also, even if it's just alittle bit, even if you don't get
to that full regulation,getting a little bit more each day,
each year is stillcontributing to the greater ether.

(01:14:44):
Yeah, it's interesting becausewhen we consider nervous system work,
we think mainly in terms ofphysiology and biology.
And then when you think of,you know, our primary audience would
definitely agree with you asall goes on, but it's like, has that
changed one's consciousness as well?
When, when, when, when you dothis work?

(01:15:06):
And is there really adistinction in terms of doing this
work to, you know, buildgreater capacity within one's biology
and physiology?
But your consciousness itselfshifts as well, for sure.
Your consciousness, um, Idon't know how we would define it
these days, but if I go morebiological, of course, the, the brain,

(01:15:27):
the thinking, the cognition,the creation, the creativity changes.
It becomes more sustainable.
Because a lot of people willsay, well, there's tons of creatives
who are fully screwed up and dysregulated.
Just look at rock stars and,you know, who don't survive very
long, but, but they also don'tsurvive very long.
Their creativity has a.

(01:15:48):
Has a shelf life.
So what I've Seen in mystudents is their natural, authentic
creativity just pops up.
And then they start to realizethe personality that they have has
been a mask.
And they're like, that'sactually not me.
I'm not that person.

(01:16:08):
I'm this person.
And then from there, I thinkthen that human who is then living
more authentically again.
Another word that's kind ofmisused, but let's just say for the
sake of nervous systemregulation, full cognition, clear
in mind of what has to dothat's gonna ping out into the ether,

(01:16:30):
our consciousness, and we'regonna find others, or it's gonna
contribute to the global consciousness.
And this idea that we canshift the.
I'm a.
I'm a full belief that theindividual has to shape the collective.
That's just how I see it.
I think that the collectivewants that individual shift.

(01:16:52):
But you can take a room of ahundred people and teach them, say,
my courses, and only a certainpercentage will really figure it
out at the beginning.
And then there's another levelof, okay, let's try again.
Let's try again.
But there is something aboutthis deep level of.
Level of work where you can'tforce a person because they have

(01:17:12):
to integrate it.
If you don't integrate, youcan do all the practices of orienting
and healthy aggression thatErasmus was saying, and.
But you have to bring it intolife, which comes back to relationship
and who's around us, and canthe people around us help foster
that?
And are they interested?
It sucks when your partnerdoesn't want to be interested in

(01:17:34):
this stuff.
Yeah.
You know, I was married beforeSeth, and, you know, really lovely
guy.
We had a lot of fun.
We're in the outdoor world.
But as I started to becomemore interested in neuroplasticity
in the body and sensations andemotions and healing trauma, it just.
It didn't.
It didn't match.
And that's okay, right?
It didn't match.

(01:17:55):
He went off and is doing stuffwith another person, and they're
living a great life, and I'mliving my great life.
It just didn't match.
Yeah.
What.
What are things.
People that are listening tothis, like, what should.
What should they look for whenthey're wanting to work with a practitioner?

(01:18:15):
Because they're going to beexposed to this all the time.
They're going to be onFacebook and Instagram is going to
have someone there with apicture of themselves with, like,
a thunderbolt shining, like,shining outside their third eye talking,
don't do that.
Don't go there.
They.
They just need to look for theIrene lion certified badge.
Right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, eventually.
Well, of course, you know, Iguess people can go, you know, to

(01:18:37):
your work.
You have, you know, yournervous system tune up, I think that's
what it's called.
And then you have, you haveyour SPS practitioner training.
But like, just generallyspeaking, like, what are red flags
potentially to look for?
Yep.
I did a video on this a whileago called I think how to Find a
Good Somatic Practitioner.

(01:18:58):
And you want to ask for credentials.
Now that does not mean justbecause someone has credentials,
because I've seen this, doesnot mean they are a good practitioner.
So that, but that's the firstthing is some form of training that
is not just, in my opinion,again, just the sea training isn't,

(01:19:22):
is not enough.
There needs to be somethingeither before or after that.
I, I know a lot of people whoare psychotherapists who do amazing
se work.
I know a lot of people who areyoga practitioners who do amazing
se work.
So you gotta just ask, what is your.
What, what have you done?
The thing that I'm also seeinghappening, you guys, is people will

(01:19:44):
so sad.
They'll have done an onlinesummit where Peter or say Bessel
Vanderkolk or Stephen Porgesis presenting and then they'll say
on their site that they'vestudied with these people.
First of all, you can't studywith Stephen Porges because he's
a researcher, he's not a practitioner.

(01:20:05):
Right.
So again, that's something tobe very careful of.
Like, what did you do?
If they just say influenced bysc, influenced by Feldenkrais, that
does not necessarily mean theyhave training.
So that's the first thing.
The second thing, or maybethis is the rest of it, you want
to like the person.

(01:20:28):
So when you, when you talk tothem on the phone or you meet them
on Zoom, or you meet them inperson, you have to have an affinity.
Like, I could hang out withthis person for more than an hour.
If you feel it unbearable tobe in the same energy field, then
that's not going to work.
And it goes with the practitioner.
If a practitioner is workingwith someone and they just don't.

(01:20:50):
I mean, it's terrible, butit's true.
Like, you have to know, youhave to have a little interest in
their development.
Right.
And, and some people clash andthat's okay.
And that's where you say, youknow, I think someone else might
be a better fit.
So you got to like the personto a certain degree and feel like
you could hang out with them.
Because if you're going to.
To work with someone becauseyou know you're unsafe inside, you

(01:21:13):
know you have dysregulation,you're not going to feel safe with
the person immediately.
So you got to like them enoughto hang out with them.
What I tend to ask 10 peopletell people to ask, ask them if they're
still doing their work, areyou doing anything?

(01:21:33):
And this is maybe private, andmaybe a practitioner won't want to
divulge this information, butit's kind of like a prenup.
Like, if someone doesn't wantto sign a prenup, then there's like
some suspicion.
Like with marriage, it's like, why?
Why?
What are you going to takefrom me if we break up kind of thing.
Right.
So the ability to say, like,what are you, just out of curiosity,

(01:21:54):
what are you doing?
Like, to continue your owneducation, your development, the
health of a person is important.
Like, you want to sense thatthe person takes care of themselves.
That's, that's my judgment.
Like, I want to work withsomeone who's healthier than me or
has more skill than me in thething that they're doing.

(01:22:16):
Those are the big ones.
Those are the big ones.
Yeah.
I have another.
Like I said, I've got a video.
People just look up how tofind a good somatic practitioner.
I think there's a few other points.
Yeah.
You have so much, you have somuch knowledge that you give out
for free, you know, on yourYouTube and Instagram.
So again, anyone who'swatching this that has videos.

(01:22:37):
Yeah.
That hasn't been exposed toIrene throughout the podcast, and
this may be the first timeyou're listening to this one.
You can go back to previousepisodes we've had with her, but
also find her on social media,Instagram, YouTube, etc, and, you
know, get the knowledge andstart, you know, contemplating and
start thinking about how thisrelates to you.
And I get it.

(01:22:58):
There's financialconsiderations and just like jump
right into, you know, a program.
But, like, you know, we haveinformation, like, at our fingertips,
and then we can take thatinformation and start applying it
to our own lives.
And so in this world today,it's like, if we have issues we're
dealing with, like, there is support.
And so like, the, the excusesare like, come on.

(01:23:22):
Like, we're living in such anamazing time now that we, we can
take in stuff.
But again, it's not just informational.
Yeah, okay.
Or, or, or just hire chatgptas your nervous practitioner.
Do you want to know story?
Yeah, let's get into this and then.
Yeah.
So two things.
First of all, I think you're right.

(01:23:43):
You're awesome.
There's so much informationout there.
I know from surveying.
My people, like, who follow,they're confused.
They're really confused aboutwhat to choose because there's so
many things to choose from, sothat's valid.
The second thing would bebefore we get into chatgpt, is people

(01:24:04):
will know if they should dothis work or not.
And here's the thing.
I'm gonna.
This is gonna sound odd comingfrom me.
Not everybody is meant to dodeep nervous system work in their
lifetime.
And the reason I say that isif the support around them cannot
provide support for theirreleases and their activations and

(01:24:27):
the rage that might come outand the need to, like, go on disability
for a while while they heal achronic illness.
Like, for some I've seen, itmight have been better that they
stayed in functional freezeand just was really good with their
food, nutrition, and exercise.
I know that sounds odd, butyou need to have space and you need

(01:24:48):
to have time to unpack some ofthese things.
You know, it's hard whenyou've got three kids.
You know, I.
I look at the amount of time Iand Seth have spent healing our stuff.
It's like, I'm like, I don'tknow how I could have done this if
I had children.
And it would be really difficult.
It can still happen, but itjust might take a little longer.

(01:25:10):
So that's the other thing isnot everyone is going to be primed
in this lifetime to go to thislevel of regulation.
And that's okay.
That's okay.
But if there's like a hell, noIrene, I want to do this, then listen
to that.
The other red flag.
I got to say it, because I'mseeing a lot of this in addition
to, like, the unicorn thing.
Light coming out of their heads.

(01:25:31):
Be very careful of women whouse their sexuality to promote themselves.
I'm pretty modest in how I dress.
Yeah, of course.
I've got some makeup on.
I brush my hair.
You know, I've got a littlejewelry, but I'm not.
Brush your hair.
I know, I know, I know.
Let me say that.
Telepathic, bro.

(01:25:54):
But there you'll.
You'll tell when you seesomeone if they're just, like, laying
on a white bed kind of halfnaked, like, maybe not, you know?
And it's very common thesedays to see a lot of dudes with their
shirts off promoting their stuff.
And it's like, yeah, take yourshirt off next Time for the truth.

(01:26:16):
Again, again, again.
And some people, like, oh,Irene, they're just expressing themselves.
I'm like, I get it.
But part of doing this workreally well is being sacred neutral.
You don't need the fancy flashto do this good work.
You just need to show up with your.
With your own regulation.
So the ChatGPT thing, astudent of ours who's in SBSM, and

(01:26:39):
I don't rec.
I do not recommend this forpeople that don't have capacity.
I don't know how ChatGPTworks, but she asked it to give her
a somatic session or somethinglike that.
And I was pretty impressed atwhat it spat out.
Some of the language I use wasin there.
Like, I swear to God, my blogposts were in there.

(01:27:01):
Some of Peter's stuff was in there.
Polyvagal stuff was in there.
Because a lot of his books aredigital, like Tracking and Touching
and Pendulum.
Like, all those words were in there.
And it helped her.
But she also had three yearsof SPSM experience.
Yeah.
And so you take someone whodoesn't even know how to sense their

(01:27:22):
breathing or the environment,and that can go sideways really quickly.
There's got to be, like, a baseline.
That's my opinion.
A baseline.
And then being able to utilizesome of these tools, you know, maybe
like I talked about before,even just, like, you know, doing
deep forms of body work.
Like there.
Yeah.
Like a little baseline there.

(01:27:42):
So.
But, yeah, I remember therewas, like, a year ago, I just looked
up some stuff at ChatGPT.
Yeah.
And I shared it with Sophie,and she's like, whoa, this is kind
of like, you know, it's.
It's not bad in terms of theinformation and the knowledge it's
presenting.
But again, like you said, youknow, how do you interact with that?
What is your interstate andwhat tools do you already have at
your disposal?

(01:28:02):
It's.
I mean, it's just.
It's just a more specific Internet.
It's just like you're Googlingmore specifically.
It's not really AI.
It's a sophisticated search engine.
I mean, that's the thingthat's funny.
It is not intelligence in asentient way.
It's still code.
It's just more sophisticated.

(01:28:22):
Yeah.
I think.
Yeah.
Irene.
Thanks, boys.
Thank you so much.
Thank you so much for coming on.
I have such respect for you.
I love the conversations thatwe have.
I love the work that you'redoing in the world.
Thank you.
I'm so grateful that my wifedoes this work.
I love that she works with youand trains with you, like, it's amazing.

(01:28:43):
And, and I love, you know,we're here for the truth.
And so having these kinds ofconversations is important.
Is important.
We're not a cookie cutter podcast.
We're not into cookie cutterhealing work.
We're not into things for.
For the masses.
You know that that's always ared flag for me where, like, these
things get super, super popular.
They're so simple because thecomplexity isn't honored and people

(01:29:04):
want the simple.
They don't want to go to dancewith the nuance and the complexity
because that brings up a lotof stuff internally that they probably
don't have the capacity for.
Of course they have capacityfor simple.
Yeah.
And I'll say there's nothingwrong with that.
Right.
If that's where a person isat, that's fine.
But like you said, you know,you two.

(01:29:25):
And thank you for having me on again.
I'm.
I'm about the complex.
I'm not about making itcomplex to teach.
Like, I teach in a very basicway, but I don't dumb down anything.
I expect a lot from mystudents, especially the students
in training, and they'll saythat, but I'm seeing the results
like I'm seeing what is beingcreated by having very strong constraints,

(01:29:50):
very strong, you know, prerequisites.
Just because I.
We don't need another thousandse practitioners who can't be in
their bodies.
It's just.
I hate to say it, but I don'tthink Peter would have wanted that
either.
And it's kind of occurring.
So.
Thank you for letting me speakmy tr.
My truth on this.

(01:30:11):
It's just not so much my truthas my experience.
Exactly right.
It's my experience.
So thank you guys so much.
Yeah, nice.
Thank you.
To get into.
Also on my truth.
People are so triggered by.
I know, I know.
Which is.
There's so much nuance to thatand, and we can get into whatever.
Another time, but.
Time.
Yeah.
Irene, just.
Just quickly.

(01:30:32):
Yeah.
Obviously, you know, we haveour group coaching program, Rise
above the Herd, and we'veintegrated the nervous system into
self development, which I feellike many people haven't really done.
But, you know, the somaticpiece has always been really important
to us.
We're in the process of, like,relaunching this in a kind of new
format.
And Sophie is obviously acentral part of this, as always.
Would you recommend Sophie assomeone that people can send towards

(01:30:54):
for nervous system work?
Fuck.
Yeah.
She had a.
Yeah.
No, I mean, she's, she's,she's trained.
She's she's learning, she'sskilled, she's attuned, of course.
I mean, nah, she's, yeah,she's been amazing and like everyone
that's interacted with herthrough our programs has been like.

(01:31:14):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Changed as a result of those interactions.
Yeah.
You don't need me.
She's.
She's exactly what you need.
So.
Thanks, Irene.
I appreciate it.
Appreciate, appreciate yousharing your knowledge and appreciate
how generous you are in all matters.
And that's, that's the thingabout it as well.
Like, the more that you dothis work, it's also like a greater
recognition of the abundanceall around us.

(01:31:36):
Like, I feel like scarcity isvery much so caught in the nervous
system as well.
When we're constricted, whenwe're dysregulated and you've realized
how much really is availableto you, the more expanded that you
become.
Definitely.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That said, for those that dowant to work with you.
Yeah, working.
Yeah.
Point them in the direction,which is.
I know your website, Irene line.com.

(01:31:58):
It'S just my name, no s dot com.
But yeah, if people want tobegin, there's two courses.
One is the 21 day nervoussystem tune up.
That's like a starter course.
But I.
What I truly recommend is sbsm.
Smart Body, Smart Mind becausethat gets into working with early
trauma, working with the body,working with all these osteopathic,
diaphragmatic, healthyaggression, toxic shame.

(01:32:22):
Feldenkrais is in there.
It is.
I mean, I'll, I'll put it out there.
It is the gold standard interms of online courses.
It was the first ever onlinecourse out there and we're going
into our 18th round inSeptember 2025.
So amazing.
It stood the test of time.
And we have done onescientific study, like at a real

(01:32:44):
neuroscience lab out of theUniversity of Victoria.
So we took our studentsthrough a segment of SBSM and there
was statistically positive results.
So we're probably the onlyonline course that's actually been
put through that test, thatscientific test and rigor.

(01:33:05):
So that's cool.
I don't talk about it that much.
I probably should, but I'm also.
I left academia.
Right.
I left it because I couldn'tstand it.
So it was a big deal for me togo back into academia to let my product,
my curriculum be tested.
But that was cool.
It was like sometimes a littlevalidation is, is nice.
Oh, totally.

(01:33:26):
And I cannot recommend highlyenough for people to go and explore
Irene's work, especially ifyou resonate with this conversation
that just took place.
Yeah.
Thank you so much for listening.
We'll see you next time.
Bye.
And that wraps up today's journey.
But, hey, the truth traindoesn't stop here.
Every Friday, we drop littlenuggets of wisdom straight to your
inbox.

(01:33:46):
We're talking mind expandingideas, heart opening perspectives,
and the kind of content thathopefully makes you go, whoa, I never
thought of it that way.
Our Friday drops like havingcoffee with that friend who always
blows your mind.
Except this friend shows upright on schedule and never asks
to borrow money.
So if you want to join ourtruth seeking tribe, it's super easy.
Just hop over to herefor thetruth.com forward/Friday and hit

(01:34:10):
that subscribe button.
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Just pure, unfiltered goodnessdelivered weekly.
So if you're ready to makeyour Fridays a little more truthful,
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self will thank you for this one.
See you next time.
And remember, we're alwayshere for the truth, and we're always
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Ep 243 - Irene Lyon | The Hard Truth About Healing Trauma

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep 243 - Irene Lyon | The Hard Truth About Healing Trauma