Ep 245 - Dr. Pran Yoganathan | Self, Nature, Death & What It Means to Be Human - Here For The Truth

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Foreign.
Dr.
Pran Yoganathan returns.
He first joined us in March of2023 for episode 111.
He is a cog in the wheel ofthe medical industrial complex.
He's a farmer, hunter, writer, thinker.

(00:21):
Pran, welcome back to Here forthe Truth.
Thanks, mate.
Lovely to be back with both of you.
And yeah, look, lookingforward to having a bit of a discussion
with you both.
Yeah, absolutely, man.
Obviously it's been a coupleyears since we last had a discussion
and the world looked verydifferent back then, certainly.
I guess just in your ownwords, like, how has the last couple

(00:44):
years been for you?
Even from just a personalevolution perspective, what are the
textures that you've noticedin your personal growth journey as
we continue to evolve on thishuman journey as well?
Yeah, Joel.
I mean, last two years havebeen fundamentally been massive.
I mean, like from theperspective of our souls, transmutation

(01:08):
or learning.
I believe experience adds to growth.
Right.
And I'm sure you guys willkind of agree with that.
And we have to thrustourselves out of our comfort zone.
So the last two years has beendestabilizing geopolitically, personally,
professionally.

(01:30):
But in all that process ofI've learned and continue to learn,
and I experience emotion, youknow, whether it's pain, happiness,
joy, love, all of that.
And all you can do is kind oftake that and transmute it into something
higher, which I believe isjust an enhanced level of consciousness.

(01:56):
And I don't mean that from anegoic sense of I'm growing, I'm just
perhaps starting to rememberwhat I am, you know, and it's, it's.
It seems like an amnesiathat's, that's kind of fading away.
Let me, let me, let me dive in there.
What, what are you.

(02:16):
What am I?
I.
I believe.
I believe I am you.
And, and, and in that isinterchangeably used, I, I believe
we are the self.
Right.
A deeper layer ofconsciousness where we're all interwoven,

(02:37):
fundamentally.
But this nervous systems ofours give us a sense of ego.
Right?
And an ego is not necessarilya bad thing.
I think it's been painted inthese modern spiritual practices
as a terrible thing and thatwe should somehow dissolve the ego.
Great.

(02:57):
Yeah, you could, you couldcertainly dissolve it through practices
such as meditations,pharmacologically active imagination.
There's many ways to do it.
But the ego is there for areason, to allow the self to evolve.
And when I speak of the self,that is the deeper layer, like the
way I look at, look atconsciousness, Joel, because fundamentally,

(03:20):
the question that you've askedis in relation to consciousness that
underpins that question.
I see consciousness just froma very allegorical perspective as
an ocean, right?
And upon that ocean we havevessels like ships and boats, and
some are bigger than others.

(03:40):
And that's our egos, that'sour respective egos upon that, the
surface of that ocean.
And I believe we've got theseancient primal blueprints called
archetypes, which are currentsthat move these vessels, as in they've
existed before the birth oftime and they're pre.
Woven into this simulation,creation, whatever you wish to call

(04:06):
it.
But once you start sinkingdeeper into the ocean, should someone
throw themselves from a vesselinto the deeper layers, that illusion
of separation of the vesselstarts separating.
Sorry, starts, starts losingits, that illusion.
And I think the deeper you go,the more interwoven we are.

(04:30):
You know, these partitionsbetween ourselves kind of dissolve.
And that is the process of egodissolution, I believe.
And it's this greaterunderstanding of really a respect
for each other in that regard.
If I am the same as you andyou are the same as me, well, you
know, we, we, we've got aresponsibility towards each other.

(04:53):
And I think if the worldunderstood that at a deeper level,
if 8 billion souls understoodthat, I don't think we'll find ourselves
in the turmoil that we findourselves today.
Yeah.
Where does like, individualityand selfhood play into all this?
When you say I am you, you asme, I understand that.
Like a foundational baseletter layer.
But what are those wordsindividuality and selfhood mean to

(05:17):
you?
Yeah, I mean, the self.
There must be a purpose rightbehind all of this.
Like this elaborate mechanismsor timepiece or chronograph, which
is this, which is this matrixof time must serve a purpose.
I mean, it's not withoutpurpose, right.
Like we understand what a lackof purpose does to a man's soul or

(05:41):
a woman's soul.
It, it, it leads to nilism.
And this is why some of thegreater thinkers on, on, on existential
topics can sometimes succumbto that.
You know, the, the, theSchopenhauer and there's various
thinkers in our time that,that you read their works and it's
extremely nistic because ifthey identify with the ego, right,

(06:06):
I am me and this is my purposein the world.
That there is an issue with that.
Whereas when we start lookinginto the deeper layers, well, you,
you, you start unravelingsomething which is that, well, perhaps
the self is, it needs us tobecome unconscious, to become conscious.
I mean, Jung, Carl Jung,Called these deeper layers the deep

(06:30):
unconscious.
And he often wrote that thedeep unconscious needs man to become
conscious.
So I believe individuality.
Right.
This purpose of self and egoallows us to go about the world and
evolve each of our souls,which in turn benefits the deeper

(06:52):
layer, the self.
What I'm trying to say verysimply is that I believe the self
seeks evolution in itself.
It.
It's not a static thing.
It's a dynamic force thatseeks growth, and it's using us to
grow.
When you say self, you meanlike big S self, ocean self, as opposed

(07:14):
to like individual self?
Yeah.
I think are obviously aseparate human being than me.
Your awesomeness.
Right now you're on the otherside of the world and we're having
a conversation.
So I'm just trying to get someclarity there.
Yeah, I think Rumi said it beautifully.
Right.
Jalal Rumi, the Sufi poet and mystic.

(07:35):
Beautiful writer, great writer.
And he said like, we've gotthis, We've got this perspective
that we are the drop in theocean, when in reality we are the
ocean itself.
Right.
And, and, and that's what I'mspeaking to.
I.
I'm speaking to the fact that,that it is very difficult for us

(07:57):
to separate the fact that weare all interconnected because everything
we've built is based on our individuality.
But at the deeper levels, I dobelieve there's a great level of
interconnection.
Yeah.
So in that context, when Iguess this human experience ends,

(08:19):
what is your perspective onthe soul's journey there forth?
Is there still a sense of,like, individuality, a separate soul,
a separate entity, or.
I'm just.
Obviously there's no correctanswer here.
I'm just curious where you'recurrently out with that.
Yeah, absolutely.
Like, for me to claim absoluteknowledge over something like that

(08:39):
would be.
There's a real danger here, guys.
Which is.
Which is that when the egostarts transcending some of these
deeper layers, it confusedwith some of these archetypes and
it confused with the self,which then leads to this messianic
complex as this is how cultleaders are born.

(09:01):
And it's a very, very trickyjourney here to navigate because
sometimes I read my work, mywriting, and I'm embarrassed at the
absolutism that I've shown insome of that.
And realize that I'm indangerous territory that, that, that
my ego is in danger of fusingwith the self.

(09:22):
And, and in, you know, I'm.
I'm at danger of speakingalmost prophetically in the sense
that, you know.
But that's ego.
That's ego.
I can see through it.
And it's something that Icontinue to, to work on.
Yeah, but you know, and, andto kind of dance around the question

(09:43):
that you've asked.
Right.
It's impossible for us toknow, but looking at many, many,
many reports of near deathexperiences and there's plenty of
it, even in my field, in themedical literature, there seems to
be an overwhelming sense of asingular emotion, which is love predominantly.

(10:07):
Right.
This overwhelming sense ofbelonging and unity.
And that makes sense becausethe deeper layers, as I said, these
partitions of us fall away.
And what is love but kind ofthis trend towards unity, it's unification.
And I suspect that that's what occurs.

(10:27):
Like these partitions fallaway and we start seeing the deeper
layers of the game.
But for us to exist, there hasto be an amnesia about that process.
Like we can't remember toomuch because the self again seeks
evolution.
Without the ego, there is noemotion in the game.

(10:49):
And I often wonder guys, youknow, like these, a lot of these
Buddhist monks and so forththat, that you know, are deep in
meditation and, and touch onthe deeper unconscious layers like
have what purpose do theyserve the self?
And you know, that's somethingthat I sit with because they're fundamentally

(11:11):
remembering.
But do they help evolve thenature of the self?
But perhaps the aim of thegame is for each of us to individually
remember who we are and headback to that deeper layer.
Yeah.
Earlier you kind of mentionedthe last couple years of, you know,
definitely had their challenges.
Anything specific you like toget into and like, you know, what

(11:34):
your journey has brought youand how you've worked through it.
And just like, you know,what's been going on more specifically
in the last couple yearsthat's inspired kind of, you know,
where you stand currently inyour life, your world view, etc.
Yeah, these are, these aresome difficult layers to, for the
mind to walk.

(11:54):
It's a process of unravelingand, and in the, in the process of
unraveling you can really losea sense of who you are.
Right.
As a person.
You know, as a, as abusinessman, I've been very successful
as a doctor, I've been verysuccessful as a father, as a husband.
But in that process ofunraveling you can, you can lose

(12:17):
your grip on all of that,fundamentally lose your grip on sanity.
And, and I would say that thatcertainly happened to some degree.
I, I've suffered my, my boutsof a particularly serious bout of
depression.
And you know, and I think thedepression was the final Straw that

(12:40):
broke the camel's back.
But, but as Rumi has said, youneed to be broken to allow the light
to enter.
So if I could go back andchange that, I wouldn't, I wouldn't
because it, it really allowedfor me to see something deeper, something
darker, and it allowed me tokind of bring in my light, which

(13:01):
I've always lived in.
You know, everyone's kind oflooked up to me as this successful
guy, you know, and, and, butto see the darkness allowed me to
kind of balance the two halvesof myself.
And of course, that had amassive impact on, on my marriage
and on my relationship with mychildren and, and so forth.
But I'm glad to say that I'vebeen able to work through all of

(13:23):
that and sort of emerge out ofit, I believe, a more, more enlightened
soul, you know, and I've hadthe support of an amazing wife who's
sort of, you know, really kindof helped me through it.
And a good partner is justincredible, incredible in this journey.
And, you know, it seems thatas souls, we're on this individual

(13:46):
path, but there are some thatjust kind of hold your hand along
that path and you diverg, butyou come back and, and it's a beautiful
thing, you know, I believewe're all kind of walking towards
the same destination.
We're just doing it atseparate paces using different parts.
And it's a beautiful thing.
You know, there's no suchthing as right or wrong in this game.

(14:07):
Yeah.
Are you still practicing as a doctor?
I am, I am.
I.
I really enjoy what I do.
You know, I'm agastroenterologist, which, which
is, you know, a doctor of thegut, supposedly.
But, you know, most of what Isit with in my, in my consulting

(14:28):
suite is just an abdominal discomfort.
Like there's a pain in the guts.
And we do colonoscopies andtests and blood tests and so forth.
Most of these are normal.
My industries called itirritable bowel syndrome, But I'm
starting to realize this is a.
A primordial primitive memorywithin this beautiful nervous system

(14:49):
in our gut that's being triggered.
So what I've realized alongthe way is that this, when the environment
or the external world turnstoxic, right, the primitive memory
is being activated.
And to write that off asirritable bowel syndrome, I no longer
do that.
So I sort of delve into thepsyche and in the course of this

(15:13):
journey, I've really becomemore of a psychologist.
But I don't really believe inlabels anymore, mate.
I.
I Feel that, that, you know, Idon't need a degree as a psychologist
or a psychiatrist to be ableto delve into one psyche.
It just, we just need to dothe kind of inner work and it's been
a really beautiful thing to beable to merge that allopathic knowledge

(15:34):
of, of medicine, that logicwith some of the more esoteric concepts
around psyche and mind.
And I, I've been able tobenefit a lot of people in that regard
and it's not something that Iwant to give up on ever.
You know, it's not just incomefor me.
In fact, you know, sometimes Igrapple with the embarrassment of

(15:56):
having to charge for thatservice because it's such a, it feels
more honorable.
It feels so honorable that Istruggle with it being transactional.
So that's my inner sort ofgrappling with, with the industry.
But I really enjoy kind ofgiving back and allowing people to

(16:17):
understand the inner labyrinthof their, their minds and the minotaurs
that lurk within it.
Yeah, thank you for sharing, man.
Has there been any kind ofconversations or dialogues or potential
pushbacks from colleagueswith, I guess, your unique approach
or even, you know, dropping,you know, the allopathic terms like
ital bowel syndrome, etc.

(16:38):
Is there, has there beenanything spark in that arena with,
I guess, more conventional peers?
Yeah, look, I think, I thinkwhen I started, you've been with
me for a fair bit in thisjourney, Joel.
Like when I first started, Iwas certainly more brash in my approach,
but as time's gone on, I'vebecome fairly esoteric and I, I think

(17:00):
people have kind of witnessedthat journey.
My colleagues, you know, I'mpretty open on social media and platforms
like that with my thoughts.
I think initially it allowedsome sort of spectacle where they
could, you know, peek in andsort of laugh and speak about it
perhaps behind my back.
And not many have said it tomy face, but, you know, over time

(17:23):
I think, I think it's justkind of evolved into, you know, this
man's just crazy.
We'll just kind of leave him alone.
At no point have I evercompromised the safety of my clients.
And everything I've done hasbeen pretty, pretty simple really,
mate.
I've said, look, farming is a problem.

(17:43):
Modern day agriculturalmethods are leading to a system of
food supply that may becontributing, that is strongly likely
to be contributing to illness.
And so there's very fewpeople, people that can argue with
that type of rhetoric.
As a doctor, with regards tomy, my focus on the esoteric aspects

(18:04):
of this realm, I I genuinelybelieve my colleagues don't grasp
that.
I, I think medicine is sorooted in logic.
Right.
And science and reductionism.
When you start touching onsome of these, you know, other, other
mythical aspects of ourexistence, they, they just write

(18:26):
that off.
So it's to a point whereinitially it was a spectacle and
then speaking about me,perhaps in sort of hush tones behind
my back.
And now I just kind of getleft alone to practice the way I
want to practice.
And I, I think I must havepretty thick skin too, Joel.
It just seems to sort ofbounce off me and I don't, I don't

(18:48):
pay too much attention to itbecause I have a strong understanding
of who I am.
I know my ego and, you know, Iknow there's a considerable ego.
I acknowledge that.
But I know who I am.
Beautiful man.
I really, really appreciatethat your osmos recently had a little
getaway where I guess ifyou're not speaking to it, you're

(19:08):
asking.
Prime's a hunter as well, andI feel like we get into a deep conversation
about nature and spirituality.
Yeah, I just wrote an articlecalled Returning to the Land.
Initially it was just about mywife and I.
You know, we moved about fiveyears ago from Santa Monica to Topanga.
We have more land.
You know, we've been reallygetting more into permaculture and
cultivating our land andbring, bringing life back to the

(19:30):
land.
And we have chickens and yeah,it's been amazing.
I've been working with thisguy Eric, who's a friend, who's just
like a permacultureagroforesty wizard and like we've
completely transformed the land.
That being said, I've alwaysbeen really curious about hunting
and just connecting more toour food in that way as opposed to,
as, as Bruce, the teacher atthis hunter course said, like hiring

(19:53):
a hitman to do the dirty workfor us, you know, and we just show
up to the store andeverything's neatly packaged and
yay, let me get my protein.
Which I get it.
This is the modern world thatwe live in.
But I went to a five dayhunting course, this is Guy Bruce
McLennan held in Washington.
And it was really beautiful experience.
I went with a dear friend of mine.
We just kind of learned somefoundational things.

(20:13):
We shot some guns.
We.
It wasn't hunting season, but,you know, he ended up shooting a
goat that he had on propertyand we field dressed it and butchered
it and went through that process.
And it was really deep, man,like to connect.
I mean, I granted I wasn't hunting.
But even, even to witness theprocess of taking another animal's
life and to be there for.
And to see it happening andthen to go through that process to

(20:35):
take a living being and thenturning it into something that.
That looks like something thatwhen you go to the store, you know,
like that.
That process.
So yeah, it's kind ofreawakened this desire to.
To want to hunt and to assomeone who does eat meat, to get
closer to it and to build agreater connection to the land and

(20:55):
to my food.
And something I've told Joeland I've told some other people is,
you know, about 15 years ago Itook part in this other.
It was like a weekend coursewith someone known at the time as
a locavore hunter.
And we went and learned aboutdeer ecology and deer hunting.
And then afterwards I went toa hunting course in Vermont and I
met this guy who's been alifelong hunter and between.

(21:18):
This guy that I met 15 yearsago who led this class and Bruce,
who's a third generationhunter, like these two men are two
of the most present centered,grounded human beings that I have
ever come across.
They're not out there studyingwith some guru or like, you know,
calling themselves a priestessor a goddess or whatever, you know,

(21:40):
on social media.
Like, these are some real menof the earth that are connected to
the land and connected tothemselves in a way that is rare
and so that, you know, and it's.
It's a kind of hunting thathonors the animal, honors the land.
It's not just like, oh yeah,look at me.
I'm just shooting animals andtaking pictures with the animals.
And so, yeah, man, I'm lookingforward to.

(22:02):
To, you know, cultivating my more.
My connection to food in adeeper way.
So I'm curious what yourexperience has been as a hunter and
you know, any comments thatyou have on what I just said.
Beautiful, man, it's reallynice to hear your.
Your journey there.
And it's.
It's very similar, verysimilar to mine.

(22:22):
You'll remember that we spoke on.
On archetypes.
You know, Nature herself is anarchetype, one of these.
She's a maternal energy.
I.
I don't think anyone can, youknow, who sat in nature long enough
would say it's a.
It's a masculine energy.
You enter a city, right, withall its lines and tall buildings

(22:42):
and logic and order, and yousay, well, that's logic, logos.
And logos predominates in thatmasculine energy.
Whereas nature to me is just a mother.
You know, she's a mother andshe, she's a producer and, and she's
a creator.
And, and what you've donethere by, by hunting is you've aligned
yourself to the algorithm of,of her, of her cadence fundamentally.

(23:07):
And, and it's the same withfarmers, man, like farmers that are
truly deeply connected.
You know, permaculture farmersand regenerative farmers, just farmers
in general.
Even the ones burdened bythese modern day agricultural systems
that have shackled them, theyare so deeply connected to the land
and it's all about connection.
So we spoke on love as anenergy that seeks to unite.

(23:30):
When you go into a groceryand, or a supermarket and you pick
up a piece of meat, there areso many levels of disconnection in
that supply chain system.
Right.
Someone's grown the beef,someone's killed the beef, then someone's
cut it up and someone's drivenit and delivered it and then someone's
put it on the shelf.

(23:51):
Like there's levels of disconnection.
There is no love in that food.
Whereas with, with huntingyou've, there is just you and the
animal really.
And that level of connectionis, there's an element of love to
it.
And, and I think that's thebeauty of it.
It's a sense of connection.
And when you say you findthese men to be deeply present, of

(24:14):
course, because again it comesdown to, to, to connection.
They are just deeply connectedto the land.
The most primal and beautifulalgorithm that, that exists.
You know, civilizations are,you know, they, they're cyclical.
You know, great civilizationsare built, great civilizations burn

(24:35):
and we, we reemerge out of, of those.
And, but nature always kind ofstays constant.
And when civilizations doburn, there is a tendency for mankind
to return to her womb to kindof recultivate that ancient knowledge
that we've, we've, we'vealways known.
And hunting to me is just adeeply spiritual process.

(24:58):
Spending time in mountains andI bow hunt.
Yeah.
And, and it's a, it's a, it'sa difficult art and there's a lot
of frustration with it thatcan sometimes come about and it's
humility.
You know, as a bow hunter,sometimes you can injure an animal
if you're not careful and notkill it cleanly.
Then stalking it through themountain and watching an animal suffer,

(25:21):
etc.
Makes you appreciate the foodthat you're butchering and taking
back to your, your family.
But as I've gotten better as abow hunter, that there is min.
Suffering for the animalsthat, that I'm taking the Lives off
and man, I, I think it's themost beautiful process.
Yesterday I put on a dinnerfor a few of my farmer friends here

(25:43):
on the farm, surroundingneighbors of mine.
And it was a, it was a coupleof goats that I'd killed and butchered
a few months ago that I pulledout of the freezer and did a beautiful
curry for them, an authenticSri Lankan curry.
And though you know they had,they must have consumed a few liters
of water while eating it,there was just so much love in that

(26:05):
food that I'd made for, forthese dear friends of mine.
And that's ultimately what itkind of comes down to.
It's this connection, AKA love.
Yeah.
How long have you been huntingfor, mate?
I got into hunting actually.
My wife booked me thissurprise trip a few years ago, probably
I think it was about five orsix years ago with, with a guy who's

(26:26):
gone on to become one of mybest friends.
His name's Eamon Waddington.
He runs a business calledBroadside Hunting which teaches people,
you know, it's exactly whatyou did, you know, it's a course,
three day course where peopleare kind of taught how to, to hunt
with guns and, and bows and soforth and butcher up meat, et cetera.
And initially I was very skeptical.

(26:48):
Right.
Like I, I'm, I've been inmedical school since I was young,
you know, I was about 16 or 17when I was in medical school.
I've really had no time tolearn some of the more practical
aspects of life, you know,with, with my hands my entire life,
science based existence.
So when she initially bookedit, I was pretty, pretty reluctant

(27:10):
because you know, I thoughthunting was something that was cruel
etc.
But those days in themountains with Eamon was, was some
of the most spirituallyenlightening times of my life.
And as time's gone on, youknow, Eamon's been more one on one
with me, teaching me how tohunt on my farm and, and, and butcher
and it's just gotten betterand better with time and it's something

(27:33):
that, that not only do Ienjoy, I believe should be essential
for many men and, and somewomen who, who seek interest in that.
I think it's a, it's a, it's abeautiful thing.
Everyone should know wheretheir food comes from.
Yeah, my wife did the same thing.
She met Bruce's wife at a, itwas a, a workshop up north in Canada

(27:56):
and so she came home, she'slike I met this woman in her husband.
Bruce leads these, a thirdgeneration hunter and he leads these
five day experiences calledAwaken the Hunter.
And his business is calledHuman Nature Hunting.
And so she sent it to me and Iwas kind of busy.
And then like a month went by.
She's like, are you gonnacheck it out?
So I checked it out and youknow, the way he spoke about everything
on his website just reallyresonated because it was more holistic

(28:17):
and had this spiritual vibewith a spiritual vibe.
And as I, you know, connectedwith him over the last five days,
we had some opportunity havesome one on one time.
I mean that is a deepspiritual practice for him.
Like his connection to theland, you know, it goes beyond like,
oh, let me go into a church orlet me go in to some, you know, kirtan.
I'm not saying those thingsare inherently bad, but it's just

(28:39):
a, a direct relationship tolike the mother to creation, to earth.
So yeah, I find it interestingthat our wives are the ones that
help give us a little bit of anudge to, to be, be a little bit
more open to this.
I mean, I was open to it, youknow, 15 years ago.
I did had that experience.
But just to find that and havethat synchronicity and then to go

(29:01):
on this experience and youknow, to, to be there with several
other people.
One of my really dear friendscame with me too, who has had some
hunting experience and he, Imean he, he works all the time.
So for him to spend five daysin the woods and a break from everything
was, was like really, really important.
So.
That's beautiful, man.
That's beautiful.
And that's what a marriage is.

(29:24):
It's a very sacred act.
You know, these vows that wetake are fundamentally been commodified.
But at a deeper level,marriage is exactly that.
The, the, the, the girl in herbecomes a woman through your presence
and the boy in you becomes aman through, through hers.
You know, we lead each otheralong that, that path of completion,

(29:47):
you know, and we need one another.
You know, we need these, thesemirrors of our, of our spouses with
their energetic opposites tobe able to, for us to be able to
unite the halves within ourselves.
Ultimately, that journey asyou we've spoken about is solitary.
Like it's a solo journey, butthese beautiful souls that we meet
along the way and you know,especially for me, you know, the

(30:11):
spouses are just so criticalin allowing you to, to sort of complete
yourself.
And I don't think it'scoincidental that, that, you know,
our respective spouses didthat because they're pushing us to
Become the men they see in, inus, you know, and, and it's very
humbling for a lot of men tohear that, that, well, am I a boy

(30:33):
and is she pushing me towards manhood?
Well, I'm a man.
I know, but no, it's, it'sthat maturity comes through, through
agitation and, and that's howwe grow.
So it's a beautiful thing, mate.
Yeah, man.
Well said, Pran.
How does the modern day humankind of, I guess, consume animal

(31:00):
products in a way that I guessis more spiritually aligned when
not everyone can really hasthe opportunity or really has the
accessibility to kind of goabout it in the ways that we've discussed?
What are like proactive stepsthat one can take to, I guess, bring

(31:21):
more love into consumption inthe midst of modern disconnect?
Beautiful question, actually.
That's a glorious question, Joel.
What I'm starting to realizeagain, with great humility here is
we, we live in, let's simplifyit, right?

(31:41):
As a population, we live in apaddock, right?
The, the, the barbed wiresthat hold us are probably technological,
they're monetary, they'reideological, they're chains or gates
that, that enclose us, right?
There are few amongst thatherd that will gravitate to the edge

(32:03):
of that fence, right?
Like yourselves, like me, right?
We gravitate.
We see beyond at the freedom, right?
And, and we yearn that.
The vast majority do not.
They are quite happy grazingin the middle of that paddock.
They're quite happy with, withtheir lives, right?

(32:24):
So we can't speak to everyone broadly.
So when you say, when you say,how can the modern human do this?
I can't speak for those thatchoose to remain within those barbed
gates, right?
And so I speak to those thatwish to step outside that not only
have stepped outside, butthose at the edges looking with longing

(32:46):
at that.
Now, those that choose to stayand graze, there is a deep pain within
them, right?
There is the pain of not being free.
Yet they would still prefertheir chains than seek the discomfort
of freedom because freedom isextremely uncomfortable.
You defy tradition, customs,laws, values to, to seek that, okay?

(33:10):
You essentially, in theireyes, you're considered a, a wild
animal when you exist outsidethose gates.
But they have an existentialpain which the, the system, the,
the herders within thispaddock throw them hedonism, alcohol,
gambling, whatever it is.
And this is why the herd issick, okay?
They, they consume not becausethey're hungry.

(33:32):
They consume because there's avoid within them.
And the herders throw themwhat's needed to keep them overfed
and not volatile.
But for those that choose toleave, if you are asking me, how
do they consume?
Well, the fundamental questionhere is time.

(33:55):
When you're burdened andyou've given away time, you really
have no option but to, to sortof, you know, consume what they,
they feed you.
So one must free time becauseI believe our soul like to look at
it again, allegorically, we'vegot a universe.

(34:15):
We've got the gate that opensinto the universe.
And, and, and as we enter intothe universe, the gift that like
the actual currency you'regiven is time.
Use it wisely.
So how do you free time?
Yeah, and that's the big question.
Once you are able to startfreeing yourself and increase your,

(34:36):
your time, I believe, Ibelieve, I believe that now you've
got the option to startlooking at nuance, like, how do I,
how do I eat?
I think a deep connection tothe land is not only critical, it,

(34:58):
it's absolutely essential.
And I, I think it's connectingwith people that have a similar mindset.
I think community is importantand, and, and little things like
learning how to fish, learninghow to hunt, learning how to butcher
an animal.
Just little things thatreconnect us back to that algorithm

(35:19):
which is, which is nature.
I think when I looked at mycattle today, when I went to inspect
my cattle, it was beautiful to see.
You know, I put out a littlebit of molasses for them for some
energetic needs, but the restof them were just grazing on, on
grass in a, in a beautifulopen paddock.
And you know, it's sobeautiful to see that there is a

(35:43):
bit more of a connection towhat I'm going to consume there.
And whilst not everyone caneconomically have that freedom, I
think we can seek it.
We can seek it.
We are trapped within theseenormous mortgages, within Citi,
debts to banks that are incredible.
Yet regional centers offer amuch, much lower, you know, entry

(36:08):
point into, into land.
But the fear is that we can'tleave the city behind or these urban,
urban regions behind to pursue that.
So what holds us back towardsachieving connection is, is fundamentally
fear.
And, and I can't speak for theherd, I can only speak for those

(36:30):
outside the gates or close tothe gates.
We have to seek connection tothe land like Erasmus did.
You know, I think those sortof hunting courses are beautiful
because it sparks something,it spirals into a, into a need to
explore something, something greater.
Yeah, you hit the nail on thehead with the time thing because
you do need to have time ifyou're on the grind, you know, 10,

(36:52):
12 hours a day, you know, andthen if you have a lot of responsibilities
and family to take that timeaway to go hunt or to butcher an
animal, like, it takes time also.
Like, as opposed to, I justswung by the supermarket and picked
up a couple ribeyes, threwthem on the grill and there we go.
So, yeah, I'm not, again, I'mnot sort of speaking ill of people

(37:15):
that are doing that.
And I think, you know, seekingmeat as sustenance is the first step
in realizing connection andthe importance of nutrition.
It's a gateway that opens upall these possibilities.
First to get your health inorder through the consumption of
nutrient dense foods.
It doesn't necessarily justneed to be meat.

(37:36):
It can be, you know, wellgrown vegetables and fruit that are
grown in an organic setting ongood soils.
The entry point into thatrealm outside the gates is nutrition.
How do I nourish my body sothat I might free my mind?

(37:57):
But to do that, look, time isa critical thing because people are
so energetically depletedafter these days that just strip
them of their energy and powerin these jobs that take away these
jobs that take away theirautonomy and sovereignty through
bureaucracy.
I mean, most jobs are so ladenwith this evil that is metastatic

(38:20):
and parasitic bureaucracy thatpeople are just depleted.
So at the end of the day, whatthey want to do is just pick up a
simple meal, order a takeaway,have some alcohol to calm the nerves
and some hedonistic treats andso forth, just to be able to regulate
themselves.
It's a tragic set of circumstances.

(38:41):
Yeah, yeah.
And to the people you weretalking about, the ones that are
more at the edge of the, ofthe paddock, you know, that care
a little bit more aboutfreedom, I mean, there's levels to
the food thing.
I'm not saying everyone'sgoing to go out there and hunt and
so, sure.
Do you even know where yourfood comes from?
Like if you're a meat eater,do you know the farm?
Do you know the person whobutchered your food as well?

(39:02):
So it's like, sure, you don'tneed to pick up a rifle or a bow
or learn how to hunt, but whatare the different levels of it that
then go down to thesupermarket where you're getting
factory farmed meat and youhave no clue where it comes from.
So, you know.
Yeah, absolutely, Absolutely.
I think, you know, there's abig difference between a cattle fed
in a feedlot that is extremelysick, cramped for room, you know,

(39:25):
in its own waste products.
Like that, that cattle livespoorly and, and that karma, to use
a vedantic philosophy, thatthat negative energy that that poor
animal carries has totranslate into, into the consum.
Sin in putting these animalsthrough that.
And I'm not saying that I'mabsolved of that transgression of

(39:45):
holding my own cattle in thesepaddocks, but largely speaking, they
are given an element offreedom and care.
You know, a few cattle I, Ipicked up from up north and they
have, they were held on a farmthat were, was super crowded.
They've arrived with liverflukes, skeletal, and I picked them
up at a good price, but I willnourish them back to health, you

(40:09):
know, on, on the, on the landbecause I look after my land very,
very well.
And, and that's what this gameof farming is.
And it's not free of sin,trust me.
You know, we, we sell cattleand we separate mum and calf and
you know, the, the, the, the,the, the mothers cry in pain for
three, four days and it, itabsolutely breaks my heart.

(40:31):
But I am aware I'm consciousbeef on the shelf, which most people
are not, so that, that theywould deem a farmer such as myself
a cruel man or a hunter acruel man.
Yet they've, they've got noclue what, what happens.
So it's a sense ofdisconnection, a lack of consciousness.

(40:54):
Their perspective is very narrow.
And, and, and when yourconsciousness is, is narrow, well,
it's not just narrow in therealms of nutrition, it's probably
narrow in many aspects.
And, and this is what, whatwe're fighting against.
It's, it's that apathy and,and lack of perspective.
Yeah.
How many animals do you have?

(41:16):
Like, what does your farm look like?
What does it consist of?
You know, do you focus onfruit trees as well?
Vegetables, different types of animals?
Yeah, look, I've got quite anumber of cattle.
It's a quite a largecommercial sized farm.
I don't grow any crop on it.
Cropping generally is a verylabor intensive process and you know,

(41:40):
it's not something that I'minterested in.
There's a few wild fruit treesthat grant a few ugly fruit during
summer.
But that's the, the beauty ofit is when fruit is wild, it's a
fairly ugly thing.
It's not this beautifulpretentious thing that you pick up
in a supermarket that lacks blemishes.
It's beautiful and tasty, it'snutritious, but it's seasonal.

(42:01):
Fruit is seasonal on this farmand it's on wild trees.
I've got plenty of wild goatshere that we've got to control the
numbers of them.
And so I do hunt them, and wegather them sometimes as well.
There's not much money ingoats, although I don't quite understand
that because there's such anincredible source of protein.

(42:21):
Did you try some of that goatthat you hunted?
Well, yeah, that was the whole thing.
The first day of the five daysis we went through the process of.
Of hunting and butchering thegoat and then that.
And.
But the chef that was there,that's all the meat that we ate was
the go.
Prepared in a bunch ofdifferent ways, used for different
meals.
And so, yeah, it's beautiful.
Beautiful, delicious.

(42:42):
We actually also, forpractice, you know, with.
We had air rifles, and we wentout hunting squirrels.
And the Last day, like, 10minutes before, you know, we were
to finish and, like, head backto kind of of, you know, line things
up.
Like, I.
I shot my.
I shot my first animal, and itwas a squirrel.
Iron sights, no scope.

(43:04):
I'm proud.
I don't know how far away itwas, but.
But it was like, whoa, man.
Like, that was a real thing.
Granted, it's a squirrel, andI have an interesting relationship
with squirrels because we haveground squirrels here in Southern
California that love to goafter our fruits and vegetables.
And over the years, I've beena little frustrated, so there was
that part of me that was like,yeah, use, you know, squirrel.

(43:25):
I got you.
You know, and then also, like,man, this is a live animal.
And no, I.
We decided to.
We decided to process it, and I.
I skinned it, and my friendtaught me how to kind of clean.
It was pretty simple how toclean a squirrel, and we ended up
cooking it that night, and Ihad squirrel.
You know.
That's brilliant.
That's so awesome.
Yeah, that's beautiful.
And it wasn't.
And it wasn't that bad.

(43:46):
So, you know, it's.
If you told me 10 years ago,in 10 years, I'd be telling you how
I ate squirrel, I'd probablybe like, really?
But, yeah, I mean, if you'regonna kill an animal, I mean, and
especially if it has meat onit, then I feel like on some level,
it's your duty to honor theanimal and.
And.
And eat it.
Now, I know hunting and meateating is controversial to some people,
and there are ethicalconsiderations that some people make

(44:08):
arguments about, but I don'tknow, man.
I.
It's.
It's only.
It's only ethicallycontroversial or a paradox to those
that disconnected, you know,on and on neighboring farms, we've
got to, there are, we've got ahuge pig problem.

(44:29):
Right.
And these pigs are sodestructive to crops, not so much
to my property, it's a cattleproperty, but they're hugely destructive
to the fencing that we put in.
So I've got to keep thenumbers down.
So we kill a lot of pigs.
But the crop farmers that farmgrain, right, which is used to feed
the, the pretentious in, inurban regions, right, Those that

(44:53):
espouse, that consume abloodless diet.
The, the whole, whole conceptof a bloodless diet is so flawed
because there are so many pigsthat die in Australia to allow that
grain farming to occur.
And that again goes back towhat I said.
It's a sense of disconnection.

(45:15):
They can't preach moralitybecause they don't know the truth.
They're only seeing their getvery narrow perspectives.
So I mean, there's so muchbattles online and I guess I used
to sort of get involved withthem and so forth, but I, I, I don't
get myself involved in them anymore.
I just refuse to buy into allthat polarity.

(45:35):
You know, I just do what I do.
Yeah, you do what you do andthen you can do what you do.
You know, like, as long as youallow me the freedom to, to live
my life the way I see fit, youknow, I'll do the same to you.
I think the problem is whenthere's people become a little bit
morally superior and virtuesignal and, and think they're better
than you because, you know,they don't eat meat.

(45:56):
Yeah.
And it, and it speaks to moralabsolutism, which I believe is a
curse, which a lot ofideologues can do.
And as Nietzsche said, like,we murdered God.
Right, he said that.
And he didn't, he didn't speakto atheism.
He said we've killed God, likemetaphysically, we've got his blood
on our hands.
What, what ridiculous thingwill we dream of so we can worship?

(46:20):
And that's fundamentally whata lot of these moral arguments regarding
diet have become.
It's a form of replacing oneform of worship with another.
And that's why they can dealin moral absolutism, which is a very
black and white.
As a farmer, I've justexplained to you that, that I farm

(46:41):
cattle.
I am broken when I separatethe mother and calf.
I go through pain, and yet Igotta do what I gotta do.
So there's many areas of gravethere, there is not just, you know,
I'm a good man or a bad Man.
Well, there's so many, youknow, there's so much nuance to that.
And I think these people that,that argue about the black and white,

(47:02):
the light and dark, evil andgood, they miss the point.
They've been drawn in by theduality, and that's a problem.
Yeah.
Thanks, man.
No, I appreciate thisconversation a lot.
I guess maybe to play devil'sadvocate a little bit for those that
might be listening.

(47:22):
Yeah, sure.
There might not be such athing as a bloodless diet, but, I
mean, is there such a thingas, like, a reduced level of suffering
diet?
Well, that, Well, I mean,that's, I think one of the arguments
is when people bring up thefact that, like, you know, how many
animals, how many gophers, howmany squirrels, how many, you know,
whatever are, are killed inorder to clear fields to grow corn

(47:45):
and soy, they're like, well,we're doing less harm.
You know, it's, it's further down.
There's, there's beenscientific studies, actually, I think
it was done in Australia anumber of years ago that shows.
I can't remember the absolutenumbers off the top of my head, but
the amount of death to producegrain and fruit and vegetables is

(48:10):
like, many multiples higherthan that which is required to feed
someone whose diet isprimarily meat.
You know, a cattle, one cowcould feed an entire family for a
year and a half.
Right.
As opposed to a bowl of cereal.
Right.
If you extrapolate that overthe year, I can tell you plenty of

(48:31):
animals have died for, for that.
And, and this is the nuancethat people have to grasp that that
whole concept of a bloodlessdiet is, is, you know, it's, it,
it just doesn't exist.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Got you.
And what do you think about,like, on, like, an individual karmic
level, is there anythingthat's preferable in terms of.

(48:54):
Sure, it might not bebloodless to an extent, but when
it comes to just theindividual consuming something that,
you know, it has been moresentient than others, by the way,
I agree with you philosophically.
I'm just.
Yeah, the questions back.
No, no, I, I, this is abrilliant question, actually, Joel.
I, I have to be honest, youknow, that, that I do believe that

(49:17):
to reach the deepest, deeperlevels, there's an element of sacrifice
that needs to occur, whetherit's through fasting, abstinence,
and sometimes even kind ofletting go.
To reach the self, you've gotto let go of the ego a bit.
A very unsettling journey.
Very, very unsettling journey.

(49:38):
When I eat well, when Iexercise, when I consume meat and
other nutrient dense foods,I'm very much wrapped up in me pran.
I've got to maintain my health.
Right.
But if I am to reach thatdeeper level, there is almost a sense
of having to let go of that,you know, And I think fasting is
an example of that.

(49:59):
You allow your, you know,prolonged fasting.
In particular, you break downyour own muscle, bone fat in the
process of reaching an elementof clarity.
And I've said it before, Ilove aging.
I love aging.
I love the fact that I'mbreaking down, that I'm getting older
because there is more clarityin my own decay as my body's as is

(50:22):
fundamentally, to use agrotesque term, rotting.
I am becoming more clear and conscious.
And so, you know, I get whatyou're trying to say, which is that,
you know, a lot of these greatsages of India and so forth, they
eat a plant based diet.
I think they do that becausethey are fundamentally sacrificing

(50:42):
their body in the pursuit of,of, of a, a greater an awareness.
So it's a sacrifice.
Yeah, yeah, interesting.
I think, yeah.
I think also too know, it'sinteresting to think about historically.
For so much of human historywe were hunters and gatherers and

(51:04):
for people to like stand ontheir pedestals and soapboxes and
be like, you know, aren't likea huge part of our history was based
on eating meat and to be likeall that and where we came from was
evil and wrong just seemsridiculous to me.
Well, it's anti, it's antimankind really.

(51:26):
Like it's a form of self loathing.
Right.
Remember I said at the centerof the paddock where they graze,
unwilling to move from wherethey stand, there is a pain.
Right.
And that pain has to manifestnot only through mindless consumption,
but a form of self loathing.
And you will see it in modernday society.

(51:46):
I mean I see it all the time.
A lot of these disenfranchisedpeople claim that we must coal populations
and reduce farming and stopfarming altogether, so forth.
It's an anti human rhetoric.
It's a Malthusian mindsetwhich actually deviates from the

(52:07):
divine and it's, it's ahorrible, horrible way to think about
things that we have to respectwhere we came from.
And I understand what, whatConnor Joel's saying is what is the
karmic aspects of, of, oftaking another animal's life.
I get that and I get that weneed to sacrifice to have some clarity,

(52:32):
but that whole rhetoric of usnot Appreciating our origin, our
primal roots.
That to me is a lack ofknowledge about the past.
And a species that is unawareof its history can never create a
future.
They are forever trapped inthat recursive time loop.

(52:55):
And it's, it's horrific.
If I can.
And I also, I just want toreal quickly say like I, I have friends
that are plant based or vegansand I have the utmost respect for
them and they tend to not beones that look down at me, look down
on me as some like evil killer.
So there's a difference there.
I think it's those people thatare like we talked about earlier,
like moral absolutists iswhere you know, it kind of rubs me

(53:18):
the wrong way.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
If I can return serve again.
I guess your initial comment,your asthmas in terms of, you know,
rejecting our history.
Like also you could argue thata big part of human history is slavery
and human murder and all therest of it.
It's like does that.
No, I, I hear you man.
I mean I don't, I don't claimto have all the answers and nor do

(53:40):
I think everyone should huntand everyone should eat meat.
It's the absolutism that Ihave an issue with, with in that
regards.
And maybe, I don't know, maybeone day we'll get to a point where
we don't eat meat and we don'tkill animals.
But again blood will still beon the hands of everyone that eats
because things need to dielike nothing lives forever.

(54:01):
And if you're cultivatingland, if you're, you know, removing
a natural ecosystem to clearaway, to grow certain things, there
are things that are going todisplace and there are things that
are going to be, that aregoing to die.
Absolutely.
And, and I think we'll reachthe stage of a bloodless diet when
we transcend our own flesh and blood.
When our consciousness isfundamentally unlinked from our corporeal

(54:26):
bodies is when we establish abloodless diet.
Till then it doesn't matter.
Even if nutrition is packedinto a pill, that nutrition has to
come from somewhere which isthe soil.
You know, there is no otherway of, of growing nutrition outside
of that.
So it's, it's a tricky one.
It's a tricky one.
And, and the important thingis, is making sure that we don't

(54:49):
deliver judgment on, on others.
You know, you do you and I'lldo me, but you know, I'm not out
here protesting people thatchoose to eat in a way that, that
you know, destroys Farmlands.
I'm kind of out here justraising awareness and.
And that's the end of that.

(55:10):
Like, I don't think we'recapable of judging another human
being.
Yeah.
Thank you, man.
What is your perspective or Iguess, personal relationship with,
I guess, death in terms of.
I'm talking primarily human life.

(55:30):
Like, what is, what.
What is the real role of theelderly and the death cycle for a
human in your understanding?
Big question, Joel.
I.
I've had a fascination withdeath ever since I was a child.
Not a morbid one, but just a curiosity.
You know, I've always been acurious child.

(55:52):
And as I've grown older, I'velost that curiosity.
I was actually reflecting it on.
On it yesterday.
During my 20s and 30s, I lostcuriosity and became more rational
and became deeply unhappy as a.
As a man.
But since re.
Sparking my curiosity, I'mvery much more childlike in my approach
to everything.

(56:13):
I ask questions and Iresearch, I read.
And death, for me has been asource of fascination.
I'm actually fascinated aboutmy own impending mortality.
And some, some people.
It makes some people veryuncomfortable when I say that, but
I actually look forward towhen I die and saying that.

(56:37):
I'm not saying that I'm notappreciating life.
I'm appreciating every moment,every minute that I spend with my
children and wife and peoplethat I love is deeply.
It means something to me.
I'm making memories for thatrepository, which is that deep unconscious.
I'm merely a camera, aninstrument for something bigger.

(57:01):
So I'm gonna.
I'm gonna give that somethinga great time.
I'm gonna give it experience.
But when death finally comes,it's a lifting off the veil, right?
Because gotta remembersomething, Joel.
We have this vision which wethink is immutable, yet we see less
than 1% of the, of the, ofthe, the light spectrum.

(57:26):
You know, we've got theseyears that hear things, but we hear
less than 1% of the auditory spectrum.
You know why?
We are limited by our own fivesenses, by our own nerves.
So death is an unleashing ofyour consciousness from the capacitor
or the limiter, which is ourflesh and blood.

(57:47):
You know, I'm.
I'm very fascinated byVedantic philosophy because it says
that your true self is God, right?
And that sounds blasphemous toanyone who's from an Abrahamic faith.
But even the Messiah, youknow, the Redeemer, Jesus Christ
spoke to that when thePharisees were persecuting him.

(58:08):
He said, ye, Are gods, right?
As in there is somethingdivine about every single one of
us.
And I think at the deepestlevels, death is a fusion with the
self where your consciousnessbecomes the singularity.

(58:30):
And that's hard for people tovisualize because what I'm fundamentally
saying is we are gods, we area deep awareness.
But people interpret that froman egoic perspective where I'm saying
if we are gods, then we areomnipresent and you know, omnipotent

(58:50):
and all powerful.
That's looking at it from anegoic sense.
I'm saying we areconsciousness and consciousness collapses
into one awareness.
And I'm very, very confidentof that.
And people say, well show methe evidence.
To ask for evidence is to askfor a corporeal, reductionistic,

(59:11):
data based system that'stypical of a world ruled by technocracy
with the high pries, the scientists.
I'm coming from imagination,I'm coming from the realm of thought
and dream and, and myth.
And you know, it's sointeresting to me that almost all
religions, when you, when youstrip away the commodification of

(59:32):
them and the, and the, in the,the levers of control that have been
used to control population,they are all basically saying the
same thing that you know,we're all just one and you know,
and, and love thy neighbor.
Makes so much more sense inthat context, doesn't it?
Yeah, definitely, man.

(59:56):
It's interesting to thinkabout that perspective universally
in our current, I guessemanation when it comes to like concepts
like love thy neighbor, likeis everyone worthy of that level
of love, you know, despite usall coming from the same source that
on some deeper level like whatrole do behaviors and actions and

(01:00:21):
self responsibility in thisexistence play in that.
It's beautiful question.
I think we have to haveboundaries, Jo.
I think a existent withoutexistence without boundaries is problematic
because you, we, we like Joelfor instance, or Pran, your assimilation.

(01:00:42):
We are, are possessed byspecific archetypes, those primal
currents.
Right.
And we think we are having thoughts.
No, we are possessed by thoughts.
Right, okay.
And, and this strips awayindividuality and free will.
Now what I'm talking to is, isa deterministic cosmos.
So but once your self startsbecoming aware, you can step outside

(01:01:05):
yourself and observe.
But what you'll see is peoplepossessed by darker archetypes.
And to allow them into yourboundaries would mean that you're
letting, you know, you'reletting problems into your life.
So you need to establish yourgates and allow people very selectively
into that inner sanctum.

(01:01:27):
So love them.
But Love them from afar iswhat I'm saying.
Don't unravel your boundaries.
I remember a very dark pointin my life.
All my boundaries had unraveled.
Probably my lowest point.
I couldn't go to the shopping mall.
I could sense everythingaround me, me, you know, And I'd
look at a person and just weep.
I could see their pain and.

(01:01:48):
And I'd unravel completely.
And that's a very, verydangerous place to be.
What I've learned is to beselective in the way I dive into
the deep unconscious.
Now I'm back on the vesselupon the ocean.
I know my ego.
I know myself.
And some.
Sometimes this process ofindividuation carries with it narcissistic

(01:02:09):
traits.
You start when you're startingto understand who you are.
You really have to delve into.
Into who you are.
So there's this deep focus onself, right?
And some people get caught inthat recursive loop forever.
Right?
And that is pathologicalnarcissism and.
And messianic traits, etcetera, that were.
That we've discussed before.

(01:02:30):
But now when I dive into thedeep unconscious, and I do it through
the process of activeimagination and music, et cetera,
not through meditation, I'vegot an anchor from which I can pull
myself out and back onto the ship.
And that, to me, is my purposeas a man and my duty as a father
and a husband.

(01:02:51):
Yeah, Fran.
So just because I'm trying toget some clarity here, because, you
know, when we talk aboutoneness and things of that nature,
so at the deepest levels,we're all one and we're all connected.
But then in life, you know, wetalked about having boundaries.
How can you have boundaries ifseparation is an illusion?

(01:03:12):
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
So, like, what's.
What's the delineation?
Is it like in the realm of egoand flesh and blood, that we are
these separate individualbeings, and then as we dive deeper,
deeper, we connect to that,let's say, that ocean of.
Of interconnectedness and oneness.
Absolutely.
You.
You've hit the nail on the head.
Head.
Right.
And to.

(01:03:33):
To dive into those deep layersis not fundamentally, you know, it's
not content.
It's not compatible withexistence, with life.
Right.
Like, what use am I to mychildren if I spent my entirety in
meditation?
Right.
Yeah.
Well, I don't teach them anything.
It's.

(01:03:53):
It's actually, in a way, it'salmost a selfish existence.
And I do sometimes ponder thelot life of these Buddhist monks
that choose solitude.
Perhaps they're older soulsand, and they're on their final,
you know, stages of theirreincarnation cycle, whatever it
is.
But to me, I need to, I needto have a strong ego.
I need to be upon that vesselso I can grant my children the ability

(01:04:18):
to help navigate themselves.
If I'm constantly immersed inthese deeper layers, that's fundamentally
a form of psychosis and youknow, you're almost dead to your
society.
So I, my children didn'tchoose to come into this world.
I've brutally snatched themout of a realm of souls and, and

(01:04:39):
given them these bodies offlesh, myself and my, my dear wife.
So it is my duty to kind ofequip them with the weaponry to go
to war in the, this realm.
Because this realm, this fourdimensional reality that we exist
in is no utopia.
Right?
It's no utopia.
We, we know this.
We, we, we are in a, in a verydifficult and dense realm where there

(01:05:03):
is a massive spiritual warbeing being waged.
And so I need to be able toequip those I love with the, with
the, the shield and the swordsto be able to combat that, that.
Yeah.
Pr.
Are you open to thepossibility, I'm not saying this
for everyone, but when we talkabout these individuals from, let's
say, the east potentially thatare looking to transcend flesh and

(01:05:27):
blood and connect to thosedeeper layers, that, that ultimately
could be a trauma response.
Yeah, absolutely.
It's a form of dissociation.
I think you've hit the nail onthe head.
Absolutely hit the nail on the head.
And I don't mean to speak illof these spiritual types.
I see them on social media alot, you know, kind of, you know,
they're always in the light.

(01:05:47):
They're always in the light,but you know, they have fundamentally
forgotten the dark.
And Jung said it beautifully, right?
When we pray to the light andwe constantly focus on the light,
the dark grows in silence.
And then where we are forcedto go to war, world war, to discover

(01:06:08):
the wretches that we are, youknow, and, and that's the issue,
mate.
I, I, I, I, I think, I thinkpeople dissociate from this very,
very difficult reality.
But we're here to play thisgame and play it well, straddle both
sides, you know.
Can I play within the matrix?
Is, is the big question thatneeds to be asked.

(01:06:29):
Rather than existing outsidethe Matrix, we, we have a responsibility
within this difficult realm tothe greater self.
The self thrust itself into adifficult zone.
It's like a hall of mirrorswhere the self walks into a hall
of Mir.
And it's looking at all thesereflections which are fundamentally

(01:06:49):
us.
But within that hall ofmirrors is one consciousness, and
it is trying to learn, but itrequires us as an instrument.
So I say, well, use me as aninstrument, go for it, because that's
what we are.
But to speak like this stripsaway that whole concept of I'm an
individual and I've got freewill and so forth.

(01:07:11):
No, the only free will you've got.
What is the free will toobserve a predetermined set of events
that, that, that, that are occurring.
And that's what synchronicityand deja vu and so forth is.
It's the self having aflashback of something that it programmed
itself well before it steppedinto the hall of mirrors.

(01:07:33):
So you don't think we asindividuals have free will at all
to make certain choices?
Like, is it just like aprogram that's running that's guiding
you to, let's say, even sayyes to come on the podcast with us
again?
Yeah, no, I, I don't think, Idon't think we got free.
Well, in the, in, in the waythat the Abrahamic fates determine

(01:07:56):
says that if you, you, if youmake wrong choices, you burn eternally
in hellfire.
I don't think that, I thinkthe, the, the actual gain itself
has a certain amount of energywithin it.
Okay.
And it's like any role playinggame, you, your character has the
ability to make choices, right?

(01:08:16):
But they're fundamentallypredetermined by the programmer of
that role playing game.
And there is a final end pointthat can be reached and that end
point can't really be changed.
I think the only free willthat we've got is to kind of step
back and, and become a bit ofan observer of your own life.
It's not dissociation, feelthe emotions, but, but understand

(01:08:41):
that your true self preprogrammed your fate before it stepped
into this game.
So are you saying you thinklike there's free, there's free will
in terms of, there's, there'soptions that we have to choose from,
but there's not unlimited options.
There's a predetermined set of options.

(01:09:02):
Am I understanding that correctly?
Yeah, that's exactly right.
Because like, if you thinkabout it in, in a fifth dimensional
state, like, fundamentallylike beautifully done by Kip Thorne
and Christopher Nolan andInterstellar right, are such a great
movie because there's so manyscientific concepts in there that
can be broken down.
But when, when he's in thetesseract, you know, which is this

(01:09:27):
Fifth dimensional place where,where time is experienced both, you
know, as past, present and.
And future.
You.
How can there be free willwhen time in itself is a creation?
In a dimension above us, timeis experienced simultaneously.
Right.

(01:09:47):
So within that you can see inthe tesseract in interstellar, there
is a series of events all kindof filed away.
So a few predetermined choicesthat he can take.
And I don't know how many ofthese predetermined parts there are.
The game is so complex andobviously coded by an exquisite coder

(01:10:08):
or programmer.
But I don't think you'regranted free will in the sense of
you can rise is above the game.
I think there is a certainamount of fate written into our,
into our code.
You Carl Jung actually wroteto this.

(01:10:30):
Some of his more esotericwritings are not well known.
He said if you look at amurder victim's true past or the,
the part that's been coded forhim, you will see that he has chosen
to murder himself.
As in the self makes thechoices before it sets into the game.
Yeah.
For that particular ego, lotsto come.

(01:10:52):
Contemplate and chew on.
Interesting.
Trying to wrap my head aroundthat for sure.
Yeah man.
Because definitely seems likethere's been like key threshold or
per chance moments in my lifewhere you know, key decisions could
have led me in differentdirections which are drastically
different.
You know, and it seems asthough the more that, that I learned

(01:11:13):
to understand myself, the moreI build coherence, the more I grow
authentic self esteem, themore power I have to make higher
decisions in my life.
So maybe more options and morebeneficial and better options.

(01:11:34):
Maybe they're always there,but I guess they become more visible
and more accessible as yougaze more inwardly.
And do you know self work?
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean I can see it in your writing.
You're within your psyche.
You're navigating your own psyche.
You've gone within.
And it's just like theRedeemer said, the kingdom is within.

(01:11:58):
You're now walking thekingdom, right.
You're navigating these darkbeings, light beings, etc, all within
the that in that realm.
And the further in you go,the, the more chances of meeting
your authentic self which preprogrammed this whole process for
you that your authentic selfwants something out of Joel.

(01:12:22):
Joel's the ego Joel.
Joel's the avatar of flesh.
But your experiences and youremotions go towards the evolution
of that little fragment of theself which is your soul, which then
leads back into that greaterrepository that allows it to grow.
And this is what we struggleSometimes as a society, as a species,

(01:12:47):
to wrap our head around isthat our purpose might be for something
greater than ourselves.
Than ourselves.
So what I'm speaking to isfundamentally ego dissolution.
And that makes a lot of what Iwrite about or talk about not so
popular because it feels likeI'm stripping power away from the

(01:13:08):
individual.
But I think if we thoughtcollectively like that as a species,
that there certainly wouldn'tbe wars, you know, we would kind
of work.
Work together in a moreefficient way.
Yeah, yeah.
It's interesting the way.
The way that you're framingit, you know, because for me, it's

(01:13:28):
like, I feel as though, Iguess from a Randian perspective,
that.
That as a society we need toembody more healthy selfishness in
the sense that we're currentlyat a place where we think the most
moral thing that we canpossibly do is to continually sacrifice
ourselves.
Yet what is the place, thedeeper place that that sacrifice

(01:13:49):
is coming from?
I feel like it's coming froman external collective moral code
that one feels they mustadhere to through mechanisms of guilt
and obligation, etc.
Yeah.
As opposed to what if.
You know, the greatest thingthat I can actually do for the collective
and for humanity is walk thisindividuation process, which also

(01:14:10):
can be seen as an inherentlyselfish act.
But for me, it's like.
Yeah, for me, it's like themore that I become who I am born
to be, the more that I tapinto the deeper wellspring within
me, and I see that.
That reflected external to mein greater purpose and greater mission,
you know, despite that fromthe outset, being a selfish act,

(01:14:32):
to walk away from a familybusiness, to move across the world,
to say.
To say no to so much more thanI ever have before establishing.
That's right.
That what you've.
Sorry to cut you off there.
Good job.
But just.
I've just got the stream ofthought which is.
You established clear boundaries.
Right.
Which I said was critical.

(01:14:54):
Additionally, the initialprocess of individuation to the,
to the, to the herd or thesheep appears to be narcissism.
They perceive that as anarcissistic act, you going inward
to kind of really understand yourself.
Because these people get theirmorality externally.
Right?
But true morality is onlypossible once you've really united

(01:15:19):
those aspects of yourself,once you've understood your darkness.
Therein lies true morality.
And so what you're forging isyou're, you know, allegorically,
you're archetypically, you areMoses going into the mountains to
forge these, These.

(01:15:39):
These commandments.
And you're doing it foryourself rather than being told to
the rest of the herd that youmust follow these rules.
You are, you are writing yourown rules.
And, and society will hatethe, that they will absolutely hate
that.
Everyone becomes an AgentSmith within the Matrix.
Once you've got an individualdoing that.

(01:16:00):
And, and the Matrix spokebeautifully, did it.
You know, when, when you'vegot a member of the herd witnessing
someone from outside theMatrix, aware that they were outside
the Matrix coming in, AgentSmith would come into that body.
Everyone becomes an AgentSmith around these dinner tables.
When you, we, when you speakof your plans openly and, and the

(01:16:21):
more it goes on, you speakless of your plan because you know
that you're on this path foryourself and those that you truly
love.
But part of that requiresletting go of, of, you know, society's
preconceived notions of whatlove is.
That I must be faithful to myfather, mother, brother and sister

(01:16:42):
because, you know, they're my bloodline.
Well, no, you respect them,you love them, but you've got your
boundaries that allow you towalk this path of individuation because
not all people are on that path.
You must protect yourselfagainst the darker archetypes that
will continue to keep youtrapped within this illusion because
that is their role.

(01:17:03):
You know, when we talk ofdemons or dark entities, they're
not dark so much as they arethe sentinels of this program.
They're the ones designed tokeep you forever looped in that central
of the paddock.
They don't want you getting out.
That's their role.
They were designed for that.
But, you know, once you stepoutside, those darker archetypes

(01:17:24):
are no longer really dark.
So you just see them for whatthey are.
Yeah, that's right.
Which is primarily weak, really.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that, that's right.
They don't really have as muchpower as, as we think they do that,
that they were designed forthat purpose.
It was like Agent Smith in theMatrix, right?
He was designed to be aguardian within that Matrix and he

(01:17:51):
resented his role but had noway to transcend it.
There was an event in the Partone of the Matrix towards the end
where he's liberated from theMatrix and he runs havoc within it.
But fundamentally, again, he'seliminated these things, these archons
or sentinels of the simulation.

(01:18:11):
I believe they're trulyenvious of our ability to see beyond
the gap and therein lies ourfree will, you know, as opposed to
these sentinels that lack thefree will, you know, we are more
dear to the Creator than theangels and demons that patrol this
Matrix, if that makes sense.

(01:18:31):
Yeah.
And it's curious, you know,from the perspective of Earth being
a school or a playground, tolearn and to evolve.
Like, the real role that thesesentinels and these Agent Smiths
play is, is for the Neos todevelop courage, for them to learn
their own power, for them toknow themselves, for them to build,
you know, build upon that as well.
Like, Neo never knows himselfas powerful Neo, if it isn't for,

(01:18:55):
you know, The Agent Smiths 100.
That's right.
And Neo's character is theChrist character, and that's what
he's built on.
And Agent Smith is theAntichrist character.
Right.
But beyond them is a.
Is a unfathomable energy thatallows these two polarities to spark
up a simulation, to play the game.

(01:19:19):
Because if Agent Smith didn'texist, you'd have complete utopia.
Right.
If the Devil didn't exist, youwould have complete utopia.
And if Christ didn't exist,you would have a dystopia.
There is nothing to be learnedfrom that.
It's through these twopolarities that you can spark creation,
which allows us souls to beable to navigate and learn and transmute,

(01:19:43):
which then feeds back to thegreater self, which.
It in itself is a process of evolution.
It seeks to evolve and grow.
And we've got, you know, we'vegot a responsibility to that self
to give it a damn good time.
You know, I had this profoundmoment on the farm where I was sort
of deep in thought about thesesort of concepts that are often ponder.
And outside was my wife, and she's.

(01:20:05):
So in the moment with thethree kids playing on the skateboard.
And.
And there I was able to stepoutside myself and think, well, I
could either enjoy that momentor go back into my thought.
And in that liminal space, Ihad free will.
And that's where free will exists.
It's not so much that I couldgo outside and kind of play with

(01:20:27):
her, with them, or be here.
It's that ability to stepoutside and to be able to observe
the actual events that areplaying out, which, as I've said,
I think are predetermined.
And.
And this is.
This is deep.
I love how broad reaching thisconversation has been.
And you know, that thatfriction and that tension that you

(01:20:49):
speak to that exists withinthat duality, like, that's really
the catalyst for all of life,you know, and it's that which most
people actually call evil,that which gives birth to life.
Because if it wasn't for thatthat friction, that tension, that
resistance, then growth is notpossible on any level.

(01:21:09):
No.
And I had this profound momentin the mountains with my son.
We'd just killed a nanny goatand the baby was bleating close by.
And we didn't realize thisnanny had a baby.
We didn't see it.
And I'd shot it and my son hadbutchered it.
And we were sitting there andthis baby was bleeding.
And my son was really like, hewas emotional about it.

(01:21:31):
He knew that we had to harvest meat.
We hadn't eaten good qualityprotein for about a day or two.
And you know, we, we, weneeded that.
But he said to me, dad,there's a, there's a lot of devil
in hunting, isn't there?
And I said, yeah, absolutelythere is.
There is.
And there's so much wisdom inthat little statement, which is that,
dad, I love what I do in termsof hunting, but there is the devil

(01:21:52):
in it.
So the, the, the, the light inthe act of hunting is that I'm going
to feed my family.
The dark in that act ofhunting is I've got to take this
life, you know, this mothergoat's life.
And that duality allows forthere to be a story where a man and
a boy can step into thesehills and, and, and seek sustenance.

(01:22:13):
Without those two, there is nothing.
So I think, I think it'scritical to understand duality.
Yeah.
And you know, really allpersonal growth is, is growing the
tolerance to withstand both,both, both of those opposites, you
know, and absolutely, yeah,most people want to avoid those and
shy away from them and yeah,wish, kind of wish upon that they

(01:22:36):
weren't there.
But I think engaging with themdeeply and as Russ most often says,
learning to sweat between thetension of opposites and building
that capacity is what personaldevelopment really is.
Absolutely.
And, and most, a lot of mywriting reflects that.
You know, I speak to a man'slust, I speak to a man's rage.
You know, very, very fewpeople can ever speak about me because

(01:23:01):
I'm speaking about myself.
Right.
I'm essentially unraveling myself.
And I understand that Icontain both dark and light elements.
And that's what.
I'm a reflection of.
Our Creator, who is thecreator of both the light and the
dark.
And therein lies our truth.
Because we are, are closest tothe Creator, because we embody exactly

(01:23:27):
that, the light and the dark.
Whereas these creations orthese emanations that have come forth
and we've called them theguardians of the simulation, they
don't embody those Halves, andthey can never embody those halves.
They serve a purpose to allowthe game to exist.
And I don't mean to reduce itdown to a game.

(01:23:47):
It is not.
It's an exquisite creation that.
That is serving a huge purpose.
Yeah, man, I just appreciateyou so much.
I think you're just such arare individual, you know, to come
from such a, you know,conventional medical background in
many ways.
Yeah.
Not relinquish you going onyour own personal journey, diving

(01:24:09):
into the depths, you know,having this whole hunting branch
of who you are as well.
I just appreciate the abilityto have these conversations and.
Yeah, man, thank you.
Thank you so much.
Much.
I really appreciate theplatform you both have given me to
speak on some of these thoughts.
I don't do podcasts very muchnowadays because everyone kind of
just expects me to talk about,you know, eating meat and vegetables

(01:24:31):
and they expect me to kind of,you know, engage that polarity that
exists in nutrition and health.
I no longer engage it.
So, you know, when you reachedout, Joel, I've always loved your.
Your writing.
I think you're a fantasticwriter and, and, you know, both of
you guys are just a pleasureto deal with and I'll definitely
do it again with you, youguys, sometime in the future.

(01:24:52):
Thank you so much, man.
We appreciate it.
I guess in.
In closing, is there anywherethat you'd like to direct our audience
to engage with you further orto, you know, consume your content
to a bigger capacity?
Yeah, sure.
Look, I.
I write a lot of my thoughtson my.
On my Instagram profile.
I think it's an instantaneousplatform in which to kind of push

(01:25:13):
these thoughts out.
I'm working on a book, butthat'll be some years away, I think,
think.
You know, I'm not in a rush topush that out, but my, you know,
handle is Pran Yoga Nathan,which is just my name.
And, you know, I.
I speak to a varied variety of topics.
Physics, metaphysics, light,dark, etc, and I just post whatever

(01:25:33):
comes to mind.
Yeah, yeah, man, I, I loveyour content, you know, especially
like your poetry.
It's just.
Particularly in today's dayand age, I think, with the continual.
The continual rise of.
Of the homogenization that'staking place with AI in particular.
So.
Breath of fresh air for sure, man.
So keep doing you.
I definitely recommend peopleto go check you out on Instagram

(01:25:56):
and yeah, we'll do it againone day for sure.
Everyone else, thank you for listening.
Thank you guys.

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Ep 245 - Dr. Pran Yoganathan | Self, Nature, Death & What It Means to Be Human

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep 245 - Dr. Pran Yoganathan | Self, Nature, Death & What It Means to Be Human