Ep 249 - Nick Jobe | Healing, Reinvention, and Saying No to AI in Art - Here For The Truth

Episode Transcript
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(00:02):
Nick Jobe is a writing coachand industry strategist, working
with screenwriters, authorsand thought leaders to hone their
narrative.
His writing clients have soldpictures to Amazon and Netflix and
staffed on major network TV shows.
His approach encourages hiswriters to think more like entrepreneurs
than artists and to disruptHollywood norms of engagements in

(00:22):
the thought leadership space.
His clients have graced thestages of conferences for women and
spoken at Fortune Global 500 companies.
Prior to focusing his all histime on his writers, Nick was an
actor writer working onprojects like David Fincher's Oscar
nominated Monk.
Is that Monk or Mank Mank Mank.
Apologies there.

(00:43):
And the fifth season of Yellowstone.
For more of Nick online, checkout his mindset and strategy podcast
for screenwriters beyond theScript with co host Stephen Harper
or at his website, Page One tv.
Nick, thank you so much forbeing here, man.
Yeah, man, I'm excited.
So, so glad to be with you both.
Oh, absolutely.
So you, you've known yourarsenal for 18 years, is that right?

(01:04):
18 years, man.
We were tadpoles.
Oh man, I'm really sorry.
I'm really sorry about that, bro.
That sucks.
I know.
I mean, you think he's, he's aregressed human now.
You should have seen him backthen, all id.
That's hilarious, man.
Yeah, we met, we met in anacting class.
But anyways, man, do.
Something we like to do whenwe start off with all first time

(01:25):
guests is we want to get moreinto like your story, your personal
hero's journey, your majorrites of passage, you know, all the
things that have kind of ledyou to who you are today, doing the
work that you do and also theperspectives that you have.
Great, man.
You can start whenever, youcan start when you were born.
Start when I was born.
Yeah.
And I love those terms, by the way.

(01:46):
I like, I really like the termrites of passage.
You know, you message that tome and I, it really made me think
a lot about, you know, whatwas it that chiseled away the person
you see and you hear today?
Right.
What are those, those majorevents, you know, and I thought about
it and it's, it's sometimes,it's sometimes.
I always, I always want tosay, like, I hate to start on a negative,

(02:06):
but I do think that a lot ofmy early life had a lot of fear in
it.
I think there was, I was kindof a fearful kid.
Imaginative, yes.
Super imaginative.
Right.
My imagination was off thecharts, but there was a lot of fear.
Right.
Like I grew up in, in the 80sand I was a latchkey kid.
And, you know, just sohappened that I spent a lot of time

(02:27):
by myself, you know, and maybelonger at home than I should have
stayed at home, right?
I mean, back in the day, itwas like, we'll just let the kids
go or let them come home whenever.
But for me, you know, I had asingle parent household, and I would
stay home a lot, waiting formy caregiver, my mom, to come home.

(02:48):
And, you know, now that I'molder, realizing that the time I
spent from school to when shegot home was probably longer than
maybe some of the other kids, right?
So there was an experiencethat I had where just so much, there
was a lot of fear.
And I think that a lot of thethings that I've worked through,
you know, my own health,anxiety, fear of the future, fear

(03:09):
of the past, anxiety anddepression, you know, they all kind
of come from that time, right?
So I think fearful.
I hate to say it, but I thinka lot of my early life had a lot
of fear around it.
And again, when you're homealone a lot, you're an only child.
The good side is that there's an.
There's an imaginativecomponent too, right?
I used to, like, my mom usedto let me just like, paint and draw

(03:30):
on the walls, which all ofthem, like, what, you know, no holds
barred.
So I was so deep in, like,crafting, you know, and like, friends
would come over to play heman, and I would have crafted this
elaborate, elaboratenarrative, right?
I'm like, you know, he man'slike, already been.
He's been tortured for six hours.
Skeletor's coming in.
You know, like, I would craftbecause my imagination, it had to.

(03:51):
There was so much time.
But I think what filled thatimagination and, you know, I think
in the 80s, kids were probablywatching horror movies sooner than
they should have been watchinghorror movies.
And I think what filled thatimagination was a lot of, like, the
horror movies that I was watching.
Probably too young to bewatching them.
So with this, there was thiscomponent of like, you know, a little
bit of that sort of latchkeykid neglect.

(04:13):
And then there was all thisimaginative energy that sometimes
trended towards the horrifying.
So when I would sit home aloneand wait for my caregiver to come
home, you know, and there was,you know, alcoholism, things of that
nature there as well.
My imagination would often befilled with, like, you know, what's
in those dark spaces overthere, right?

(04:33):
Like, there was just.
I was just a.
I was just a little bit of afearful kid, a sweet kid, a really
kind Kid, but a fearful kid.
And I think that those twocomponents really stayed with me
kind of all throughout growing up.
Right?
There was like this charming,charismatic guy who had this great
imagination, but then therewas, there was, there was all this

(04:56):
kind of like low grade, lowlevel trauma and you know, fear of
making the wrong person mad.
I was just a fearful kid.
And you know, I always kind offast forward.
Cause I think for me thegrowing up was moving to New York
City.
And I moved to New York Citywhen I was 23.

(05:16):
After taking five years to notfinish my undergraduate degree, I
moved to New York to do anacting program.
And I was, I don't know why Iwanted to go to New York, but my
mother gave me theopportunity, you know, and I will
say about my mom, she, she didhelp foster whatever I wanted.
You know, there was a lot ofwhatever you want, which on some

(05:37):
level was a cur, you know, acurse, but also a gift because it
allowed me to go, okay, wellthis is what I want.
And I, I didn't, you know, youknow, I know men are generally a
little bit more immature thanwomen, but I think I was maybe the
most immature 23 year old thatI have ever known.
I mean I just didn't, Ididn't, I didn't have a lot of inner
resilience.
You know, I didn't knowanything about my own value.

(06:01):
There was a lot of like healthanxiety and fear.
And so my first few years inNew York, I think I was really kind
of lost.
You know, I was, I was like achronic weed smoker, you know, really
trying to self medicate.
A lot of what I didn't know, Ididn't know my, you know, just, just.
It wasn't that I was sociallyanxious, I was socially pretty graceful,
but there was just a lot offear of things, right, and, and weird

(06:26):
health anxieties.
I think I crafted a lot of, Iremember when I was seven thinking
that I had leg cancer andtelling my mother that I'm like we
need to go to the hospital,like I'm sick.
And just knowing now lookingback that that's not normal, that's
not a normal thought for aseven year old to have.
So think about that, you know,16, 17 years later, that there was
just a lot of like the healthanxiety I think was another big identifier,

(06:50):
you know, for me.
What do you think was like theearly seeds or like the catalyst
for that health anxiety atsuch a young age?
I think that, well, well Ihave, you know, obviously I've Explored
a lot of this in therapy.
But I think that some of ithad to do with the fact that when
I.
When I would become sick, Iwas able to get the most closeness

(07:10):
from my.
My mom.
I was able to get the mostcloseness from my caregiver.
Being sick or being ill orhaving some sort of crisis would.
Would create an opportunity tofeel really close and maybe get some
of that, like, more intimatelove that I really longed for.
Yeah.

(07:30):
So I think.
And I.
I remember when I firststarted recognizing this was an issue,
like in my late 20s, I startedsaying to myself, like, there will
be no reward sick.
You know, like, it's.
It's not going to reward youfor crafting an illness.
So, yeah, it's cra.
And I remember even my 20s, Iwas sick a lot.
Whether it was like a throatthing or I was just sick a lot.

(07:51):
One of those kind of kids.
So know, New York, you don'thave a choice.
It kind of grows you up.
Right.
I didn't.
You know, first of all, I hadlike the.
I don't know, there's.
Maybe you guys know.
But there's a term.
I'm going to try and say thisin a way that positions me is not
to Gen X, but there's a termfor girlfriends who like, take guys

(08:12):
who need a lot of work andlike, get them all set up to.
To succeed.
I don't know if you'd.
But like, I had.
I know what you're talking about.
I just don't.
I had a girlfriend like thatwho was like, she helped me, like,
find a regular job, like, get,you know, like, I.
She stabilized me on some level.
I remember, like, it was in mylate 20s, but I think it wasn't until,
you know, I was in and out ofacting class and I was in acting

(08:34):
class with Erasmus.
And our teacher at the timewas very much about, you know, deep.
Digging deep into self.
And obviously there was a capon how far into self I could go because
there was tons of guardrails around.
What?
I didn't know.
I didn't know.
I didn't know.
But I.
I think it was really, for me,I started having really bad, bad,

(08:55):
bad money issues in my 20s,early 30s, bad, you know, like, I
would, you know, I just.
I didn't know how to hold onto money.
Right.
I think it had a lot to dowith value.
I would just let money go.
And so I was in an actingclass with Larry Moss, the great
Larry Moss, and he said outloud to the whole class, I think

(09:17):
I was 33, you know, and he hadgiven me a reckoning that week by
saying, you know, there's a.
You're in.
You're afraid of antisocial,dark, strong, masculine energies
and roles.
Why are you so fearful ofbeing strong, masculine, antisocial,
and dark?
What's the fear?
And so that was like the first reckoning.
And then he said to the wholegroup, and I was like, you know,

(09:39):
I remember the day he said this.
I had had to borrow money froma scene partner to have lunch.
And he said, if you're havingproblems with money and debt, you
need to go to DebtorsAnonymous and figure out who you're
debting to in your history.
Who is it you're debting to?
What is it?
Right?
And so I did, like.
Like a week later, I startedgoing to D.A.
I remember that.

(10:00):
I remember that now because wehad lost touch for a couple years,
and then when we reconnected,you had been like, you know, in your
DA experience and goingthrough all that, that level of your
growth.
So, yeah, what is.
What is that?
If you guys can basically,what is the a.
He can explain it.
I mean, you know, at somepoint, I don't know when AA splintered
off into people thinking the12 steps could cure all kinds of

(10:21):
maladies, right?
So there was OvereatersAnonymous, you know, there's Sex
and Love Addicts Anonymous,and then there was Debtors Anonymous,
which was people.
And, you know, I used to go tomeetings in New York, and some people
would be like, Upper east sidewives who just could not stop shopping.
They were just like, shop.
They just couldn't.
The feeling of shopping wasfilling up something for them.

(10:41):
And for me, I just couldn'thold on to money.
If I had it, it needed to go, right?
And I also was so far awayfrom knowing my own value.
So 12 step, for me was thefirst really big.
It was.
I had a spiritual awakening inthat program, 100%, you know, because
when they walked me over tothe third step and, like, letting
God take over your life, I waslike, God, come on, man.

(11:04):
And I'm like, I'm a New Yorker.
I'm like, God, people are notsmart people, you know, God, people
are not like, those aren't people.
I want to.
Right?
These are like.
And I thought about, you know,the way the media had portrayed the
religious right.
Or I thought about people whowere invested in God as maybe not
as smart for some reason, right?
I had that sort of whatever.

(11:26):
So for me to finally, like,give in and say, well, whatever's
going on with me.
I need.
I, I'm, I am powerless over itbecause I can't, I can't figure out
what I can't figure out.
I can't see.
As like Alan Watts would say,I can't see my own head.
Couldn't see what was wrongwith me.
So how to.
I really grew up in that program.
You know, part of that programis keeping your numbers so you get

(11:47):
really clear with, with howmuch money you're spending.
Right.
In all areas.
So that clarity like startedto just open things right.
And you know, when you're in12 step, you look for the miracles.
And I had miracles.
There were things opening up,you know, I started to, you know,
get some TV auditions andBecause I started realizing that
being a theater actor was not.

(12:07):
You could not make a careerout of it.
I mean, you really can't makea career out of acting anymore.
But that's a whole nother conversation.
But I started to kind of wisenup and a little bit wisen up to my
own value.
So I spent a long time in therooms of DA and it just, it just
grew me again.
I don't know if I'd ever hadthat kind of like lead parental style

(12:29):
leadership.
And I, and I, you know, I hada little bit of a distant relationship
my.
From my own father.
And so I found in malesponsors a lot of.
The answer to a lot of thefather hunger.
I had heard that term fatherhunger, but I had tons of father
hunger.
I was just kind of looking fora man to tell me how, what to do.
Yeah.

(12:49):
You know, so I found a sponsorwho was also somebody in the arts.
And I just, I, it, it did alot for me.
I, you know, I was, I wasworking in a restaurant at the time,
starting to build my writingcoaching business little by slowly
and you know, all this I was,became very grateful for my restaurant

(13:10):
job.
I worked at a very nice restaurant.
I still, I still go back therefrom time.
I was just there in New York.
I can name check it, I guess, whatever.
I feel, Yeah, I feel, youknow, has been there.
Yeah, it's a great restaurant.
But you know, it was aMichelin star place and it taught
and you know, and I still, Istill remember.
Our conversation because youwere doing, I don't know, like data

(13:31):
entry.
Like we were acting in New York.
You're doing data entry work.
Yeah.
And as someone who grew up inthe restaurant business.
Yeah.
Knowing your personality,knowing your intelligence, knowing
how you can be charming, I waslike, dude, why aren't you working
in the restaurant businesspart time, like a lot of other creative
people are doing.
And then obviously you scoreda great job and you, you excelled
at it.
And a good example of my sortof fearfulness is that I think I

(13:53):
was afraid of dropping thingsor not being able to carry things
or something.
Like, I was like, I don't knowif I can carry those glasses, you
know.
And sure enough, I did drop,drop and break many glasses early
on in that job.
But I was also, you know, Iwas very good.
Like, again, I was gregariousand all these things.
And there was a system there, right.

(14:13):
It was a fine diningrestaurant and I was able to perform
on stage every night andallowed me to have the income to
grow my writing coachingbusiness, do my acting thing.
And things started to, youknow, get better.
I mean, really, that's, youknow, 12 step was really the gateway
for me to getting better.
And then I was out here andthis was.

(14:35):
And then, you know, fastforward to I moved.
I moved to Los Angeles and we reconnected.
We reconnected.
Really?
When you moved out here, which was.
We reconnected several years ago.
Yeah, I moved out here in2017, so.
And I don't.
And I guess what.
Oh, here's another.
What took me out here was Istarted meditating and I started.
I started following someoneon, on the Internet who suggested

(14:56):
trying to meditate two hoursper day.
Oh yeah, remember?
And so I started medit.
It was almost six months to ayear where I meditated two hours
per day.
And I was, dude, talk about.
I mean, there's just no waythat can't, can't change your brain
chemistry.
I was like, I just remember waking.
I just kind of waking up oneday out of a long meditation and
being like, what the am Idoing in New York?

(15:18):
I do not, I do not like it here.
I don't like being here.
I've lived in the same prettysmall studio apartment for seven
years.
Right.
Like, what am.
And I think for me, and it'sfunny, you're Asimos.
You talk about.
When I saw Yudai Fiore thatone time, I had a lot of that feeling
that people who had good orgreat things in their life, whether
it was a nice apartment or agreat career, that those things were

(15:40):
for them, but not for me.
Right?
Like, you know, you're awesome.
Oh, he could come to the nice restaurants.
Not really.
For those things are for himthese sort of grand, luxurious, expansive
things.
They.
They didn't feel like theywere for me, which is why I Kind
of held so tightly to thatlittle studio apartment I had and
that restauran restaurant job.
I, I was just really afraid ofwhat any kind of calculated risk

(16:04):
might look like in my life andwhere it might lead me.
Because in my mind it alwaysled me to the worst possible outcomes.
So, yeah, I woke up from a twohour meditation one day and I'm like,
it's time to get the out of here.
And I just did.
You know, I told everybodythat I had, I told some people like
my landlord and stuff that Ihad a job in LA and I moved and I

(16:25):
think I had 5,000 bucks in my pocket.
Yeah.
Also when was it that.
I know, I remember from ourconversation, like, because you said
earlier you were like achronic weed smoker and even like,
you know, you, you drink butyou stopped.
I remember there was a momentin our, in our past when we had the
conversation like, dude, Idon't smoke, smoke weed anymore,
I don't drink anymore.
You know, that's still thecase when I think, you know, two,
two things.

(16:46):
Well, when people say like,hey, you know, you have a great life,
what'd you do?
I think the two, the twothings that I can say is that one,
I always ask for help when I,when I can't figure, when I really
feel like I'm at a loss.
Yeah, I always go to, to help.
And the other piece is justsomehow I think there's been a good
inner compass for when shit isnot going well.

(17:09):
And with weed I was just like,this feels like a dead end every
time.
Like I sm, like I love smokingweed, but my career, my life, my
nothing was going anywhere.
And so there's, there's,there's just that inner ticker going
like, you're not moving.
I just had a, I just havethat, that two, that two step component
of that inner ticker thatgoes, you're stuck right now.

(17:29):
And I get it now, I get it.
In my business, you're stuckright now.
You need to pivot.
And then the second piece thatgoes, you need to ask someone for
help to help you with thatpivot because you can't solve it
on your own.
So I think I was 30 when Iquit smoking weed and I just was
like another one that I kindof woke up and was like, this is
not, this is not bringing me,this is not getting me anywhere near
my highest self.

(17:51):
So yeah, fast forward tomoving to LA and I started trying
to do my writing coachingbusiness out here, which I'd been
kind of building in New York.
And I was kind of self taught.
I'd had a couple classes fromscreenwriting mentors and I was teaching
a class at this place calledthe Actors Green Room in New York.
And I tried to bring that samestuff out to la.
And I think because LA had allthe real writers, like the real screenwriters,

(18:14):
I felt such a sense ofinferiority, like it was deep that
I couldn't promote myservices, I couldn't bring myself.
Like I just was like, oh, theyknow better.
And I, I just kind of shutdown that piece of my business for
a little while and was stillkind of working at a little restaurant
in la.
And it was somebody in, in Dawho said to me, it's time for you

(18:34):
to quit restaurants and youknow, your higher power will show
you.
And I think a week later therestaurant I was working at closed
with 48 hours notice.
Wow, that's the sign.
I remember that, dude.
And I was terrified.
And they're like, you're goingto take your writing coaching business
and that's going to be yourjob and your acting jobs, because

(18:54):
you get acting jobs a coupleevery year, that those will be your
job.
And I'm like, dude, Those arecurrently 15 to 20% of my income.
Like, are you joking me?
I didn't know how.
And then, and then co hit, youknow, a couple like a year and a
half later as I was justscraping by, right?
And Covid was an insanereckoning for me on so many levels

(19:19):
because I was terrified in away I could, not quite, I can't explain,
you know, I would see, youknow, you yerasimos or other friends
being like, you know, themedia is trying to drum up fear and
da, da, da.
And I'd be like, you know, Iwould be so deep in my own fear that,
that I was like, no, I hatewhoever's saying that I hate, you
know, because it's gotta be real.

(19:40):
And I was, and I was, I was, Imean, I was snorting cnn, you know,
like I was mainlining the fear.
And because there's a feeling,you know, I'm sure you can probably
hear it in my, in my talk sofar, but, but I have, I've had versions
of ocd and there's a feeling,feeling within health OCD that says
if I can just get moreinformation, I can feel better.

(20:02):
If I can just get that pieceof information that's going to soothe
the ocd, that then I can feel better.
And I would just search, youknow, Twitter for.
And, and at the beginning ofCOVID it was all bad news after bad
news after bad news.
And it just drove me to thisplace of.
I mean, I can't even tell you.
I mean, I was living the time.
I was living in a little aframe house with my friends in Santa

(20:23):
Monica and I didn't want toleave the room when they were out
of their room for like months.
I mean, it was that fucking bad.
I moved into an apartment andI just started going to every 12
step you could go to.
I went to ACA, adult childrenof Alcoholics.
I went to Al Anon meetings.
I worked the steps in Al Anon.
You know, I was going to DA meetings.
I was going to just trying toget better because I was like, this

(20:46):
is not correct.
And friends would call me andbe like, you know, first of all,
like, whatever you believe onCovid, you're one of the healthiest,
strongest people I know.
You're 40 years old, like,you're fucking fine.
You know, like, go live yourlife like we all are.
And just that very thought,you know?
And again, in your osmos, wecan go over it.
I mean, I saw Irasimo sort offlaunting the masks and, you know,

(21:09):
saying there's more than meetsthe eye on in the anti vaccine space.
And I was like, as much as Ilove this person, I hate this person
now, you know, I can't.
And everything that the mediapushed up about vilifying those people
became true for me.
Right?
It was like you were anexpression of every all my fear.

(21:29):
Right?
You were like.
You were the boogeyman.
Yeah, I remember.
Sorry.
I remember.
I think it was like weactually got on a zoom, like maybe
a few months into, you know,the whole Covid thing.
And it was kind of like I wasjust there to listen to you and you
kind of share some things thatwere going on for you and you let
me know this and I had to stopfollowing you on Instagram.
And it was just kind of likeeven that moment, it's the fact that

(21:51):
we even had that moment, Ithink set the stage for things to
come after, because it wasstill a conversation and you were
still just kind of likereally, like matter of fact, like,
hey, man, I love you.
I had to stop following you.
And then I think, you know, wegot off zoom and then life took what
it took in 20, 20, 20, 21.
We lost touch.
But.
But even we still had thatinitial moment, you know what I mean?

(22:11):
We did.
And I think you probably gotit from me, the least of other people
who decided to ostracize you.
Or push you out.
Because I.
I kept having that part of methat was like, but he's such a thoughtful
dude.
It doesn't make sense.
Like, it doesn't make sensethat I feel like he's so wrong because
he's is a smart.
I've always thought of him asa smart guy.

(22:31):
So.
So again, like, going back tothat thing that, for me, the clarion
call has always been that Ineed help, and I can't.
I can't.
I can't figure it out on my own.
So I was.
I had an Al Anon sponsor whowas really.
Who was a therapist, and hesaid, I don't think the 12 steps
can touch what's going on for you.
And I'm like, what do you mean?
And I was like, you know,fearful that I wouldn't get my, like,

(22:54):
unemployment check from COVIDthat week or whatever the it was.
And he was like, I think thisis trauma.
I don't think.
No, no amount of spiritualawakening, no amount of working the
steps and 50 programs is goingto make you better.
I think you need to do emdr.
And, you know, just like whenLarry Moss said to the group, if

(23:14):
you're having problems withmoney and debt, you know, you need
to go to DA and figure out whoyou're dating to, I was like, next
day I was like, how do I getan EMDR therapist?
Right?
I was like, there was no.
You know, for some people,it's like.
And I noticed this how, youknow, in some cases, I'm really unteachable,
but when I'm up against thewall and in pain, I'm super teachable.
Yeah, I'm just fucking give itto me.

(23:36):
And he's like, this is hardmedicine, but sometimes you need
the hard medicine.
And.
And I.
Dude, literally, next day Istarted emailing people.
And I think it was.
This is probably like February 2022.
I was still.
And then by March, I was withan EMDR therapist, seeing her twice
a week.

(23:57):
And I think yurosimos.
You and I saw each other twomonths into this.
And yeah, we did, because Iremember because, you know, we had
lost touch for, let's say, acouple years, you know, whatever.
The.
That time was just crazy.
And I remember I.
I had also gone off Facebookbecause I was just over Facebook.
But then, you know, Joel andI, our podcast started kind of doing

(24:18):
its thing, and I decided,like, well, let me just start sharing
some things on Facebook.
And I noticed you started kindof like liking or Harding some of
the.
The episodes, especially theOnes that maybe were more personal
development based.
And I was like, okay, like,you know, we're.
We're finding way back to eachother in a certain way.
And then, like, yeah, like, I just.
I've been in Topanga for acouple years, and we haven't seen

(24:39):
each other.
And so I was like, why don'tyou just come up to Topanga and,
you know, come see the place?
Let's.
Let's reconnect.
And I didn't really know whereyou were in your, like, health anxiety
journey at that point.
Like, I didn't know if youwere going to roll up to the front
door, like, wearing a mask or,like, you can't hug me, but, like,
you rolled up, gave me thebiggest hug, and I was like, all
right, cool.
Let's.
Let's just reconnect.

(25:00):
Yeah.
And again, I think it's.
It's important to note, andI'm sure you know this about me,
because I feel like I need tocaveat it with this.
I mean, I still.
And you know, this about me, I.
I still.
I think I find, walk a prettyfine line between Eastern and Western
in terms on the medicine front.
You know, I do still think my.
My.
My caregiver I listen to themost is my acupuncturist.
But, you know, Western isstill a part of it.
So I didn't go full.

(25:20):
You know, I didn't.
I didn't go full here for the truth.
You know, like, let's.
Let's dismantle the Westernmedicine industry.
But see, as I was like thatthere was.
That the.
That there was an overreach interms of the narrative, and that
that overreach was plugginginto the way I felt.
And I mean, look, all I cansay is that there's nothing that

(25:44):
changed for me faster than emdr.
I can't.
I mean, the changes were.
I mean, what was it?
I broke up with the woman Iwas seeing at the time because it
just didn't.
All I can say is that I thinka lot of what I thought was love
before was trauma, was trauma bonding.
And suddenly I didn't feel asclose of a connection.

(26:04):
This was like a month intotwo, two times a week.
Emdr.
Like, I was.
I didn't know what I was like.
I don't.
I don't.
I didn't understand what wasgoing on.
I think within six months, mybusiness tripled.
I think it doubled at first,and it tripled within maybe a year.
And I met my future wife, whoI went on to, you know, Like I got,
you know, I mean it was, thegrowth was insane.

(26:26):
Ext.
The growth was insane.
But internally.
Can we.
Real quick, real quickly, man can.
Real quickly.
Because we talk a lot abouttrauma and nervous system work and
all different modalities.
Like we've.
EMDR has kind of popped up in conversations.
But like, can you explain whatEMDR is?
Yeah, I mean, I'll explain itthe way I understand it.

(26:47):
And, and I actually, theperson I have worked with for three
years now, we actually don'tdo the eye movement, we do bilateral
tapping, which is another way in.
But the way I understand it isyou go back to a traumatic moment
or series of traumatic momentsand you reframe the belief system
about it.

(27:08):
And so much of other therapytalk based therapies are about the
conscious understanding ofself, whereas the bilateral tapping
is.
Taps in.
It starts to reprogram andreprocess your unconscious around
a memory so that everythingyou felt about yourself in a, in

(27:28):
a traumatic memory that mayhave been a negative thought, negative
thought pattern or a negativebelief system, you truly start to
feel, you start to feel apositive belief system around that.
Right.
Whereas maybe something likesome neglect or things of that nature
may have felt like, well, I'mnot valuable, I don't have value
in this world.

(27:48):
You start to reframe that.
Right.
Suddenly, suddenly thosememories don't, they don't feel the
way they felt anymore.
They don't play on you anymore.
Right.
I'm, I mean, all I can say isI'm just not as triggered anymore.
Do I still get triggered?
Yes.
Is it way less?
Yes.
Because I have done tons oftargets in emdr and by targets, it's

(28:09):
a memory or section ofmemories and it's about going into
that memory and just lettingyour unconscious flow from it.
And usually if it's atraumatic memory about something,
all of those traumaticmemories that were connected come
up and you didn't even knowyou're on this.
I mean, you're on a, like aroller coaster.
Does someone have to haveclear traumatic memories to seek

(28:30):
out EMDR as a therapy?
I mean, you know, I hate to besomeone who says this, but I think
a lot of people do.
You know, I think a lot ofpeople in the Gen X in that latchkey
kids space and kids of the 80sor kids of the early 90s, there was
a.
Because there was a lot ofprobably hands off parenting, hands
free parenting.

(28:50):
Like I think there's, there isa lot of it.
But Joel, I feel like the twothings that made me A great candidate
for it is I'd already donetalk therapy for a decade.
I've been in 12 step for sixor seven years at that point.
So I had a re.
I knew a lot about myself froma, from a, from a conscious awareness
place.
I understood things about myself.

(29:10):
But so I, I don't know becauseI think even some of the targets
I work on now, they're notexactly a traumatic memory, you know,
like getting lost at the storeor something like that.
It's more a memory that hassome negative belief systems around
it.
It's like a, it's now we'relike really reframing.
So you're saying like, let'ssay like you got a bad grade in school

(29:30):
and then you brought it homeand your, your parent.
Again, this is hypothetical.
It's like you're stupid.
You need to do better.
Like something potentiallyaround that.
Right?
Yeah.
And, and, and, and again, youknow, we, we all know this, that
there are things people saidto us over our life that we still
remember.
Right.
There's like, you know, Iremember I had an acting teacher
who said to me in 2004, hesaid, you'll never be right for the

(29:52):
roles that require deep rigor.
You never will be.
But you'll, but you can dothese like light comedic things.
You just don't, you reallydon't have really in you to really
think that deep.
Go that deep.
I never forget it.
I mean, talk about aninterjected villain.
That will always be in there.
So.
Sure.
You know.
Yeah.
When someone says something toyou that hurt you, you know, when

(30:16):
you did something that you maynot have, maybe.
Give us an example of like oneof the most powerful, I guess, things
that had a stranglehold overyou, which you were able to reframe
as a positive.
I mean, I think for me therewas a whole series around.
You know, again, it's, youknow, I think we as people always

(30:36):
want to.
And I just want to caveat thisa little bit because my relationship
with my mother has made somuch evolution over time.
And it was the 80s and she wasa single parent, she was doing her
best.
But I think being home alonein a 200 year old house as a, maybe
a 9 year old from when I gothome from school till sometimes later

(31:00):
because maybe my parent hadworked late and maybe they'd gone
out for drinks and I used tosit and just watch the headlights
and kind of terrified almostweek nightly.
I think that that was verydeep in my, in my DNA, you know,
just, just, I mean, thingsaround, waiting.
Things about abandonment,things about my value, I mean, were

(31:24):
so, so, so reprogramming.
That was like.
Because those.
And.
And, you know, when you do.
When I was doing it, when yougo really deep, often the therapist
will suggest you go for a longwalk afterwards.
The images that came up wereso dark and traumatic that I would
go for, like two hour walksafter our sessions.
Yeah, I would.
I would, like, walk all nightbecause there were so many things

(31:44):
that were.
There were so many images thatwere like, basically kind of shake.
Like I would.
I feel shaken when they wouldcome to me.
Yeah, right.
Because my imagination crafteda lot of boogeymen in that house.
And I.
They.
They.
That was a really, really deeppiece, I think, of my.
Just my overall DNA, how Iinteracted with almost every space

(32:05):
in my life.
So what does, like a reframeor a reprogram of that example look
like?
Like, is.
Is it like a conscious reframe?
Like, oh, this.
I can flip this into a positive.
Or what's the.
What's the healing mechanismin that?
Well, again, if you're.
So you're doing bilateraltapping, right?
So I'm literally tapping on myphysical body.
Yeah, I'm doing.
Right, just like this.
I'm doing bilateral tapping.

(32:27):
And I am going from thatmemory to wherever my unconscious
leads me.
And I'm.
And then I'm.
And then there's a piece ofthe EMDR where I'm starting to try
and feed in the positivecognition, the positive belief system
that says, I am valuable.
The world is not a scary place.

(32:47):
I'm okay.
I'm gonna be okay.
Right?
And little by little, justdoing that bilateral tapping, the.
The way you feel about thememory changes, it's.
I honestly, I can say it's crazy.
Yeah.
And like, again, the externalwas that my business exploded.

(33:07):
I met my wife.
I mean, I started.
I started.
I started dating people whofelt like value matches.
What I had was.
I had a value explosion.
That's what I call it.
I started really saying.
And that's right around thetime I quit.
Because I was like, this is not.
This does not match my fucking value.
Putting up, putting on, youknow, spending three hours to send
a fucking videotape out intothe ether where 500 other people

(33:31):
are.
Sending a videotape into theether is no way to make my bones
in this world.
I am just more valuable than that.
And it wasn't like I was angry.
It was just fact.
Suddenly I was just like.
And now I meet with potentialclients and I'm like, You're not
a value match for me.
Like, just, you know.
And, you know, the one thing,the reason why I kind of broke off
from 12 step is that theacceptance piece and the own your

(33:55):
own part piece, it wasn'tworking for me because I was like,
I don't want to own my ownpart, and I don't want to accept
shit.
I was like.
And I did with both my parents.
I was like, you know what?
I'm a valuable person.
I need y' all to step up as parents.
I remember calling you awesome Us.
I'm like, I want you to be abigger friend in my life.
Can you do that?
When I asked you to beinvolved in my wedding, I started
saying that to people.
I'm like, I need more from you.

(34:16):
Because I.
Because I suddenly had thiscrazy value explosion.
And people.
Clients always come to melike, how do you get that?
And I'm like, it doesn't.
You can't think it.
It's not a.
You can't think it into your brain.
You have to feel it into yourbody, right?
Because we all know people whohave issues of value.
And suddenly that's.
I think that's part of what it was.
I started asking for moremoney from clients, from my work,

(34:37):
for my ideas.
But that reframing, it wasjust this crazy.
Just value explosion that's,you know, like, my ideas matter.
I matter.
And.
And when I.
Taking it all back to when Icame to see it asimos everything,
I thought I.
And my health anxiety just gotway better.
We did targets around health, right?

(35:00):
It used to be around the COVIDtime, if I was in the grocery store
and someone coughed to mygeneral direction, I would think
about it for a couple hours,and I'd go, oh, my God.
Do you think it did it?
I went in my brain, that OCDkind of trickle, right?
Would go.
And after emdr, I would thinkabout it for about two minutes, and
then it would.
And then I wouldn't thinkabout it again.

(35:21):
That's big.
I mean, that's a lot of time.
I mean, it is to take backfrom the looping.
And again, for someone who'dbeen in talk therapy for 10 years
to have these kind of resultsin three to six months, I was like,
holy.
Also, because I want tohighlight this because this is what,
you know how you say.
Like, people say things and they.
And it stayed with you.
Like, after we had kind ofwalked around our home and hung out

(35:42):
and then you know, just kindof talking about life, like, we got
into the conversation of likewhat happened between us, you know,
And I remember you telling meyou're like, I decided six.
Well, I started doing emdr andyou said, I decided six months ago
to stop watching likemainstream media or a.
Lot of it or whatever.
Yeah.
You know, and like, can't likeunderestimate, like, estimate like

(36:03):
the impact of all the like,media you've worked in media, like
the power of how that impactsyou on such, on a conscious level,
on a subconscious level.
And if you're constantlyfeeding yourself this fear based
stuff and you have the stuffthat, like the hooks, the hooks into
you based on like, you know,your past and your anxiety, like,
that's not a great recipe.

(36:24):
So when you said that combinedwith your personal work, like, it
showed, man, it showed in whoyou are.
And then we had this moment inthe kitchen, man, like, where we
were just kind of like there.
And like, I love you.
And you're like, I love you.
And like we sat there acrossfrom each other with fucking tears
in our eyes, you know, andlike, for me, like, because especially
in our world with whathappened in those years, there is

(36:44):
so much conversation aroundpeople who just thought and said
the most horrible things aboutpeople in their lives.
And then like four years laterthey just go on like nothing happened.
And so when I've shared ourstory, like in private with people,
like, dude, like, people arelike, yeah, that's never happened
in my life, you know, and for,to, for you to have one, the maturity,

(37:06):
you know, and even for me tohave it, to just be there with you,
because I, I, on some level,like, I knew what you had gone through
in your life.
And so I had enoughunderstanding of like, why you would
have those experiences.
Do you know what I mean?
Because we were, it waspersonal there and like, to just
have that moment where we werejust getting along in so many different
ways, having theseconversations and then to have that

(37:27):
moment, like, listen,something happened, let's talk about
it, you know, like, instead oflike, let's push under the rug and
la, la, la, oh, hey, I haven'tseen you in forever.
How's life?
Well, again, it's one of thosethings where the inner compass was
like, something's wrong.
Like, you can't, you know, wetalk about this like with my son,
who's one, you know, it's theidea of repair, right?
It's like you do, you know,and that is one of the things I love

(37:48):
about 12 step making amends.
Like, you know, there's gotta,you know, showing up and repairing
something is Such a lostfucking art.
And it's like you were such ameaningful person and then suddenly
you weren't.
And suddenly you were aboogeyman, right?
You and your wife.
I remember when you saw me,you're like, look at me, my wife.
Do we look like evil people?
Do we look like domestic terrorists?

(38:09):
You know, like.
And I was like, yeah, dude.
And, and, and, and I forgot.
Like I did.
You know, some people hatethis term.
But I did go news sober atthat time because, yeah, it was because
there I, I saw the patterns.
Part of it is I did see thepatterns in the media and I did,
I had my own here for thetruth, you know, becoming a lion
moment where I was like,again, I didn't see it fully as like,

(38:32):
oh, you know, it's all aconspiracy, but I saw it.
I was like, some of this isnot correct.
Some of this is.
Some of this is being.
And that there's a vestedinterest and a vested objective for
a lot of these so called truths.
I mean, again, we've talkedabout it before.
I don't know where I stand inthe new space anymore because now
I, I actually can watchwithout feeling anxious.
And if I go to Reddit, themain news stream of Reddit is so

(38:55):
far left that I can't, I can'treally connect.
And then if I go to like the R.
Conservative subreddit, it'sso far right.
Then I'm like, this feels likejust maybe a little too misogynistic
and angry and incelly over here.
And so I'm like, where thewhere is for me, right?
I'm glad you sent me Kaizen,because, because I was like, great.
It feels good for someonewho's like, let's step back, you

(39:18):
know, like, so I still don'teven know where I live in the media
space because.
But now I can see it, right?
I see it's.
And, and it's funny, when Iwork with my writers, I think when
writers start to see whatwriting really is, I see you see
the Matrix.
I mean, I saw the Matrix.
I had my Matrix moment rightwhere I was like, oh, right, like
the news is just whatever thefucking new download of COVID is

(39:40):
going to be, whatevermanufactured war we want to do so
that, you know, defensecontracts can grow.
And I mean like, I saw it.
And also I, I used to be sointo politics and I was like, I feel
nothing for these people.
I feel nothing for any of them.
I just like, it's, it.
I mean, I, you know, I thinkTrump is An entertaining new media

(40:02):
figure.
But I just.
All that stuff of like, and Isay this to people, I go, why are
you connecting your own heart and.
And well being to someoneelse's hopes and dreams?
That has nothing in commonwith you.
I don't get it.
So that was also a bigawakening and part of, I think, why
that opened that space that Iwas like, well, I allowed the media
to shape my.

(40:23):
Not just my thoughts, but mydeep, deeply held beliefs.
And that's part of why it feltright to make you and your wife the
villains at that time.
It's incredible, man.
This is so rare, what you'resharing right now.
And I think the key thing is,despite the journey that you took
and the trajectories and theside paths, et cetera, like you,

(40:45):
you say, you know, I had avalue boost, but I think you always
deep down valued that inner compass.
And the difference between youand other people is you always had
the recognition that if thisthing within me is welling up where
something's wrong, I'mstagnant, my life isn't moving, I'm
destroying friendships thatdon't need to be.
I need to pay attention.

(41:06):
And that requires uncommoncourage, man.
And I feel like at the, at thecore of it, you always had that,
you always held onto that.
And I think that's the reasonyou've been able to kind of, you
know, move through some ofthese veils, for sure.
Thanks, Joel.
Yeah, I always, I always.
This is something that.
Always a question I ponder alot, especially in the space of like
AA or 12 step or NA as I go,what's the difference between the

(41:27):
person who is in so much painas an alcoholic or a drug addict
that they walk past an AAmeeting and they go, I don't need
that shit.
And, and, and then maybe theygo on to die or do something terrible.
And the person who goes, youknow what, maybe there's hope in
there.
You know what I'm saying?
And this is not a, this is nota commercial for 12 Step, because
I have a lot of qualms aboutit, but what's the difference?

(41:49):
You know, where does that getplugged in?
The person who has just enoughhumility to go, I, Yeah.
My best thinking is not, youknow, and that's a very 12 step line.
But my best thinking is notgetting me anywhere.
Yeah.
And like a 12 step doesn'tneed to be perfect, but it's the
stepping stone that you neededat the time to reach the other stepping
stones, you know, and that's.
That's the.
That's the base.

(42:10):
It's.
The starting point is like, Ineed something.
Whatever I'm trying to doalone isn't working.
So you're calling something in.
You engage, you experiment.
You try and you move forward.
Who knows?
I mean, who.
Honestly, who knows?
You know, and.
And people.
I think about the fact that myfather probably wouldn't be alive
without 12 steps.
I mean, I don't know if minewould be that dramatic, but who knows?

(42:30):
That really was.
I mean, I had, as they say, aspiritual awakening.
I just.
Nowadays there's parts of itthat feel a little too overly dogmatic.
And so I stopped going,actually, when I started EMDR meetings.
Didn't.
Didn't.
They didn't feel good anymore.
I went to meetings and I waslike, this feels a little like, blame
me.
And I don't know.

(42:51):
Yeah.
Yeah, dude, I love it, man.
It's so good to have this conversation.
It's so good to see the other.
The other day with.
With.
With Claire and.
And Jude.
What a beautiful little,little child you have, I guess.
Man, I love getting into your story.
I'm trying to think.
I want to talk more about allthis, and I want to get into your

(43:13):
writing, man.
Like.
Like, how do you approach writing?
Like, what has shifted for you?
Because I know we used tojoke, like, I don't know if it was
from some TV show or you.
Where you got the term or.
But when we went away for yourlittle bachelor weekend, which was,
yeah, yeah, let's go eat somegood food and see a comedy show,
like, you kept saying, like,disrupt, bro, disrupt.
You know, that was like thething, like, how to be a disruptor.

(43:35):
And it's another thing.
What I.
Which I loved about you isbecause we shared that, like, how
can you be a disruptor?
Meaning, like, how can you goagainst the grain?
And sure, maybe we've goneabout it in different ways, but,
like, you've applied this intoyour work in terms of challenging
Hollywood and writing and.
And how someone can go aboutbeing a writer.
And so I don't.
Maybe we can talk about that.
And then I definitely want toget into this.
Who AI praise and boom.
And your views on that.

(43:57):
Yeah.
You know, again, I think itgoes back to, you know, going back
to the rites of passage thingthat you talked about.
I think for me, I've haddifferent versions of inferiority
complexes.
Right.
I think when I first moved toNew York, there was.
There was an inferioritycomplex around, like, rich, pedigree
banker types.
You know, there's.
And When I moved to la, Ithink there was some inferiority

(44:19):
around the sort of clickyintelligentsia of the screenwriting
community.
Like there was this.
I didn't know how to get in.
There was.
It felt like there were these.
All these unwritten rules.
And the unwritten rulessounded like kind of like kiss up
to somebody for a really longtime and then at the right time you
can make an ask, but if you doit the wrong way, they may never

(44:39):
like you again.
And I was like, that doesn'tfeel correct.
Like it feels like the entire,the entire way they tell you to interact
with entertainment as ascreenwriter or anybody, it feels
so trauma based.
It's like, you know, you onlyget one ask in this thing.
And, and I mean, I talkedabout this on our pod the other day.

(44:59):
You know, showrunners, there'sall these tweets about like, you
know, don't, don't borrow my time.
You know, like, don't ask medirectly for a job.
Like, in what industry shouldyou not ask directly for a job?
There's just all these clickyand my own inferiority, you know,
I always present myself to mycoaching clients as an insider.
Outsider, right?
Like I have all these outsider thoughts.
But I did play the inside gamea little bit, you know, I.

(45:21):
Some scripts, you know, winsome contests.
And I had a pitch that I'dwritten with another showrunner that
was in the market for a while.
This thing we had written onreincarnation, this pilot I had written.
So I was kind of doing it andstarting to kind of make inroads.
But I just, there was justsomething about it that felt so weird
that, that all therelationships, you know, people are
always like, I can't reach outto someone that it might burn my

(45:44):
contacts.
So I just, especially in thespace of like having this value explosion,
I was like, the language ofentertainment is fucking broken.
And this weird fear basedapprentice forever pay my dues mentality
just felt so antithetical towhat I felt powerful, disruptive
artists should do.
And also, entertainment is nota meritocracy.

(46:07):
So why would you sell it as merit?
Why would you sell it as amerit based thing?
It's the furthest thing from meritocracy.
It is, I've said it on the pot.
It's a chaos ocracy.
There is no rules.
Right?
The rules are date an EPO babyand try and get a pitch into a studio
that way.
I mean, you know what I mean?
Or fucking make the news, makethe New York Post for dating somebody

(46:29):
that you shouldn't date ordoing something terrible.
And then maybe you'll get apitch with a studio.
Like, that's the closest thingto a rule there is.
There's no rules.
It's.
It is truly, it is meant for disruption.
But the industry doesn't wantto be disrupted.
So I just started looking ateverything all the other screenwriting
schools were preaching about,like, make a friend, wait seven years
to ask that friend for yourone favor.

(46:50):
And then if they say no, thengo make another friend for seven
years.
I'm like, what the fuck do youdo in the meantime?
Work at Starbucks?
Like, it just, it just felt sobroken, the whole language.
And so I've made a lot of whatI do about trying to disrupt industry
norms of engagement andsaying, you know, I think the, the
whole thing.
They tried to sell usYurosimos and other actors in New

(47:11):
York, like become a co star,say one line on the TV show and then
one day you'll be a series lead.
Bullshit.
That does not happen.
That is what they sell topeople so that they will go say one
line and, and be grateful forit to just be working.
Hashtag blessed.
You know, like, theentertainment industry is not no
longer a place for people whowant to earn abundantly.

(47:33):
And I'm trying to coachwriters who want to earn.
I'm trying to get them tofucking checks.
So, you know, my goal forpeople is like, stop listening to
all your fear based friendsand just, and try and get in at the
start at the highest level anddo it by having a pro level script,
a pro level strategy, andthinking of your work like an entrepreneur

(47:53):
would.
Right?
Think about positioningmarketing where it fits in the market.
Right?
No one wants to talk to youunless you have a star attached anyway.
So go sell your soul to get astar attached.
That's that.
If you want to process, that'sa process.
But I just, I just got sick ofthis, like, touchy, don't make him
mad.
I saw this tweet.
It made me so angry.
It was from a showrunner sixyears ago.
I won't say the name.

(48:13):
And she was like, don't wastemy time.
If I give you five minutes,that's five minutes I could have
been using, listening to apodcast or reading a book.
Don't ask me directly for ajob, ever.
Say to me, if there's everanything possibly maybe available,
I will be open to it.
Don't ask, in what industrydoes it say don't ask?

(48:34):
You know what I'm saying?
Like, I was just like, that'sfucking dumb.
And I'm out here with all myclients trying to, through their
successes prove that there'sanother way.
Yeah, sounds like the ironRand of screenwriting coaching.
It's just, I just what are weputting these people on pedestals

(48:56):
for and saying especially whenyou hear from so many people that
people, top level writers arenot as good as the lower level writers
or people say like thatperson's writers room for that show
was, was held down by theirmid level writers because the showrunners
didn't know what the they were doing.
Yeah, but it's almost like itsounds like to succeed within the
industry norms, like you haveto adopt a value system that is completely

(49:18):
contradictory to normal human flourishing.
And so it just fosters thisspace of muck and low self esteem
and, and bullshit.
And like, sounds like whatyou're doing is like, no, let's lift
ourselves up, let's raise thebar, let's raise the tier and let's
bring real value to the tableand try to switch things up.
Which makes sense.
And the value equation is sobroken, even those strikes that for

(49:42):
better or worse, you know, Ihave some thoughts about the strike
that were not exactly prostrike, but even those strikes which
felt like they went onforever, like they didn't even get
much, you know, like theydidn't, they didn't even get, I mean
both actors and they're so faraway from what their true value is
that they did.
You know, it's like theirnegotiating starting point was okay,

(50:02):
you know, could we get a 5%raise on residuals?
Meanwhile, streaming companiesare making hand over fist.
I mean I was on Yellowstone.
14 million people watch that episode.
And I was in, let's say I wasin 7% of the episode, 6% of the episode.
I mean, how much money do youthink I made?
Not much.

(50:23):
Right.
Like what about profit sharingfor all artists involved at the percentage
that you were involved in the production?
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I don't know.
I don't know enough about thedetails of all that.
But I mean, I know witheverything going to streaming, things
have shifted for whether it'sartists, you know, actors, musicians,
etc.
The game has changed.

(50:43):
So yeah, it's hard for me tolook at the modern business of the
actor or the writer or thecreator and not see a subtle and
innate addiction to underearnings, under being.
You know, and it's almost likethis tacit acceptance just go along

(51:04):
and it feels like somethingthat just is and something for them
probably that can never change.
And they're just buried underthis burden of this thing that's
crushing them in the hope thatthere's gonna be a breadcrumb one
day in the future.
It sounds.
It's like a classic, like,narcissistic relationship, actually.
You know?
Totally.
Totally.
And.
And because the narrative isalways, there's someone who will

(51:24):
replace you.
There's someone who will take irreplaceable.
Yeah.
There's someone who will takescale, who's just as good and just
as handsome and just astalented and blah, blah, blah, blah.
Right?
So, you know, that's.
That's the strategy piece ofwhat I do.
And then, you know, the craftpiece of what I do is.
It's.
It's.
It's really about becoming anarrative master on the.

(51:48):
Like, making narrative soinstinctual that if you were in a
pitch, in a Hollywood pitch,and they said, can you have three
more ideas or can you expoundupon this?
Your brain would be able tocome up with it in a fucking heartbeat.
Because what I teach people todo is to just.
Is to shift their instincts.
I mean, people come to me, andthe work we do is basically like
brain surgery, because the waythey think about crafting narrative

(52:12):
is so far away from what thereal way to do it.
I mean, you know, I talk aboutthe conceptual and the intuitive
a lot.
Right.
Sort of.
And.
And this is not my ip.
I took this from somebody andI've kind of made it my own.
But this idea that there's aconceptual part of the writer's brain,
that is the planning part.
Right.
The math part that is, youknow, saying, well, this needs to
be paid off in the third act,and this is going to be paid off

(52:34):
in the fifth season.
They think far and wide.
And the intuitive part, thatfeels and hears characters, you know,
and feels like they're in theroom with them.
And so the great writer is anintegrator who can do both of those.
Most writers, one of those areatrophied in them, and they don't
really know.
So really, that's what I workpeople towards, you know, and then

(52:54):
eventually the pitching skill,which is the hardest for me to teach,
because pitching is bothcrafting narrative on the spot and
selling at the same time.
And particularly artists donot think that way.
It's anathema to their belief system.
Often selling.
What do you mean?
Yeah, yeah.
Sales is just like a dirtyword to so many people, you know,
even people who want to becoaches, you know, But I don't know

(53:15):
if I want to.
How do I Sell myself and soundsleazy or like I'm trying to get
something from someone, right?
I mean, you sell your movie oryour script or your idea so you can
go make another one.
So, you know, I have friendswho've built homes on the strength
of their writing ideas.
Like, so you can live yourlife and keep creating more art,
not so you can become someevil money grubber.
I mean, you know, it's like myclients have gone to friends and

(53:40):
they're like, it's weird thatyou're so into positioning your film.
Like, maybe if you just let ithappen more.
And my clients are like that.
No, like, I'm doing way betterthan you.
Why would I listen to your.
Again, sort of addiction tothis under earning.
Let's go to the edges.
Let's make another short filmthat goes to one of the 12 million
film festivals and get aconsolation and get our participation

(54:01):
trophy.
Hey, made a short film.
Yeah.
This seems to relate so muchjust from a general standpoint.
You know, Joel and I talkabout this in our group coaching
program, Rise above the Herd.
Just like people'srelationship to money in general.
You know what I mean?
The relationship to money,whether it's under earning, whether
it's like what you said before.
Oh, evil people have.
Have money, you know, and wesee even a lot of programming through

(54:22):
the media and that, like, allthe shitty characters are the real
rich billionaires that arethere to just ruin everything.
You know what I mean?
And it's like.
And the noble character is thepoor person, you know?
So again, this is all thissubtle program and we've done episodes
on this that, like, impactyou, you know, not to mention just
like the political stuff andall the other stuff that, like, infiltrates

(54:43):
our minds or things that maybethat are being taught in schools
and academia, like.
And so it's like, it's rare tobe like, hey, like, I'm an individual.
I have value.
I want to create, I want toproduce, and I want to be rewarded
for my mental brilliance andmy creativity and what I bring forth
in the world.
Oh, my God.
How dare you think that.
You're so.
You're so full of yourself and selfish.

(55:03):
I mean, Christianity, right?
I mean, you know, Jesus was,you know, right?
This.
And.
And humility has been weaponized.
Can you just have some more humility?
Can you just be more gratefulfor what you have, that it's been
weaponized?
Right.
Humility, I think, is code fordon't ask for more.
Don't ask me for more.
That's what it's code for justbe humble.

(55:25):
Just be grateful for what you have.
And it's so that is all overthe entertainment industry.
Just be grateful to be on set.
Don't think about the factthat you're making a thousand dollars
on the show and you may notwork again for another quarter.
And life doesn't exist on athousand dollars a quarter.
I don't know where the you live.
But like the originaldefinition of humility, you won't
find this if you Google ittoday, but it's to have a low sense

(55:46):
of one's self importance.
And doesn't that speak toeverything we're talking about?
Yeah, like, I get it.
Like, and we've had multipleconversations on this and I love
that you said that becauselike, I have like my, my issues with
like humility and like howit's just like thrown out there for
everything.
It's just like, okay, I canunderstand I could have humility
that I don't know everything.
Like, I like that.
But when it's like this thingto make you accept being small and

(56:10):
be grateful for what you haveand like, not like have value in
yourself, you know, it's like,also in Australia, I know they have
the tall poppy syndrome or thetall poppy thing where it's like
if you get to a certain placeor if you think yourself.
And again, this isn't to comefrom like an egotistical quote, unquote
egotistical place, just likeliving and embodying like, damn,
like I'm dope as fuck, youknow what I mean?

(56:31):
Like, and I tell my clients, Itell my clients often, and I'm going
to butcher it and paraphraseit, but I tell them to go watch Snoop
Dogg's Walk of Fame speechbecause the first thing he says is
the first thing I'd like to dois thank me.
There is again, there is afine line between self belief and
arrogance.
And I think you got to goright up to it, right?

(56:52):
Like, I think that self beliefcomponent, I often say it's, it's
a bigger skill set than justthe writing skill set in what I'm
trying to get people to do.
Just believing that what yousay is so dope.
Yeah, yeah, totally.
But the thing is likearrogance, the term arrogance has
become so broadened in oursociety today that any individual

(57:13):
that actually has self value, I.e.
themselves, values theirrational desires and wants, falls
under this arrogance categoryfor not putting everyone else first
before themselves.
You know, and this is whatRand spoke about in depth with the
virtue of selfishness youknow, selfishness in its core essence.
To value the fact that youlive and money as the sustenance

(57:34):
of your beings, literally thelifeblood of your existence.
No one can really survive orthrive without money.
Like that's the highest act of morality.
To value the fact that youlive and value what you need to live.
We all need money to live.
Yeah.
I mean, we look at people whoare doing well a lot on social media
and we both actively hate themand are jealous and are jealous,
you know, we're like, I, Ihate that person.

(57:55):
They have such a strong pointof view and they're doing so well.
Look at their life.
Yeah.
And a lot of the times it'salso even crafted like you don't
even know what else is goingon behind the scenes too.
So that's a whole nother levelto it, you know, But I get it.
Like again, it's like thewant, the envy, you know, like the
compare, the compare andcontrast game that social media sucks
you into, which is like, man,like, this is why I love like, like

(58:16):
human design or these othersystems or anything that can just
put the gaze back to yourself,focus on you, who you are, your gifts,
what you can build, what you create.
Because you can get lost inthe compare and contrast game, man.
Yeah.
And like that, that jealous,envious type, they don't really hate
what the other person has.
They hate that they don't havethe fortitude and the courage to
go for what they really want.

(58:38):
Instead, they keep gettingzapped by this unconscious electric
fence which says, stay small,don't stand out, don't put yourself
first, don't, you know, riseabove the herd, any means.
And they feel like they're sofar away from it.
Right.
Like they just feel.
Yeah, you don't know what'sgoing on behind the scenes for those
people.
Oh, man, there's.
Oh.
Oh.
The other thing I was going tosay you made me think of is that
the language of thegatekeepers in Hollywood is all about

(59:01):
getting you to check yourwhatever at the door.
Do you know who you aretalking to?
Me?
I've seen emails like that.
You're just emailing my office.
You're just calling my office.
How dare you.
Like, do you know it's allabout this sort of like shaming.
I saw that a lot in my familyof origin.
Like, you know, and again, Ialways say it goes back to depression
era mentality when there wasnothing and you asked you would be

(59:24):
shamed.
Right.
Because there was so little.
So now that's pervasive theidea that being asked something is
an affront to people.
How dare you?
Do you know who.
You know who I am?
Do you know who you are?
Have some humility.
Pay your dues first.
That's the, that is theliteral Darth Vader narrative of
the gatekeepers.
And I'm just like, no, sorry.

(59:46):
Yeah.
And imagine how much of thatthat person had to go through before
they became the petty tyrantsand all of a sudden was in the position
of the gatekeeper.
I mean, like, how dare you,you know?
Yeah.
There's no industry.
Well, maybe it's all of them.
Where the blind are trulyleading the blind.
Where really no one knowsanything and they are just looking
for the next trend.
Agents and managers, what isthe next trend?

(01:00:08):
They're not.
That's not, you know, for themost part there used to be, but it's,
you know, it's.
That is not a skill set.
No.
And it's.
It's the perfect storm for lowgrade superficial content, you know?
Right, right.
Which leads us into this wholething or this whole AI thing.
Right.
Or at least me into part ofwhat I was thinking about it.

(01:00:31):
What are your thoughts on AIand how AI, I guess, has come into
the creative scene and what doyou see coming out of this kind of
blend?
Well, the first thing I thinkis that we continue to listen to
the heads of industry to setthe standard or the moral standard.
And the narrative there isthat if you oppose progress, then

(01:00:56):
you will be left behind.
You know, they said this aboutthe Internet.
They said this.
So.
So we look to the industryleaders and we go tech, right?
And we're like, well, listento them.
That sounds right, but fuckingtech people are not artists.
I do not care how many techcompanies buy streaming networks
and how many formerly techexecutives get in on meetings with

(01:01:18):
the top directors.
You are not an artist.
So do not tell me how to make art.
Right.
Because the whole idea of AIis about efficiencies.
I'm sorry, art is not justabout efficiencies.
I do.
Artists are not saying, pleasehelp me streamline, please help me
go faster.
Art is truly a journey into self.

(01:01:42):
Right?
And the way that ChatGPT getsyou and the way that the tech overlords
get you, as they say, oncethey help you kind of reorganize
your outline, they say, wouldyou like me to give you the first
paragraph?
And right there you're.
Because once you say yes andyou think it sounds better than what
you could come up with, you'regoing to have A hard time telling
your brain that you're goingto be able to craft a better idea.

(01:02:05):
And now your flow to ideation,which is truly cosmic and spiritual,
is snapped because you nowbelieve you've given your power away
and you've let the AI instilldoubt in you.
You think it's a better writerthan you.
And you go, now the idea.
Ideation goes like that.
And it's going to be hard toget your brain to go.

(01:02:26):
No.
Ideation goes into the heart,into the head, into the.
You know, my ideas come from30 minutes of meditation every morning,
right?
Like, so that's the first waythey get you.
And what AI is going to do.
Look, and I can be the old manyelling at clouds all you want.
We can look back at this infive years and go, look, Nick, you
were so wrong.
Whatever.
I think artists deep down knowsomething is wrong.

(01:02:50):
What it's doing is.
It's robbing the writer, thenarrative artist, the artist of their
coming of age.
Right?
People find themselves inwork, the things we write.
The artists were literally.
Eugene o' Neill was crying andscreaming through Long Day's Journey
into Night.
They learn about theirhumanity through the work.
Springsteen in his earlyrecords was deep, reaching into the

(01:03:13):
depths of his trauma so thatwe could learn about the depths of
our trauma.
So that is the writer's comingof age.
And AI is a prompt based system.
Its goal is efficiencies.
There is no way it will notrob us of the writer's coming of
age, the writer's journey in.

(01:03:33):
When I work with people, Iswear to God, sometimes I'm just
a professional annoyer.
I'm just like, you can go deeper.
Like there's fucking more here.
There's something you're nottelling me about this that is way
more interesting, way more personal.
Art is all of us reaching intoour deepest, darkest images.
Just like I did to you when Ishared about my trauma today.

(01:03:57):
So that you can have imagesabout your trauma and you can learn
about self, right?
The artist learns about selfby making the art.
So we can learn about self bylistening to the art.
That's why we feel so close towriters and filmmakers and artists
now.
Again, I use ChatGPT.
I use it to help me streamlineprocess when I break down things.
But when it, it starts tobecome an ideator, even, because

(01:04:20):
it always wants to, that's the gateway.
That's where.
That's where text likeartists, we got you.
Come on.
Don't you want to see thosefirst 10 pages?
What about it?
Happens to me all the time.
You want to see what thatnewsletter looks like?
I don't, I want to find it onmy own.
I want to go into my brain andfind words.
I want to go to thesaurus.comand think about a different word
right there.
Yeah, yeah.

(01:04:41):
I mean that's, that's my basicpremise on it is that I don't know
any artists who are sayinghelp me with efficiencies.
It's, you know, I completely agree.
I don't think AI has a placein genuine art by any means whatsoever.
I think it's a productivity tool.
It's not a creation tool.
Right, right.
And, and the question is whenit, when it comes over, you know,

(01:05:02):
what is it?
What is it doing to us?
Right.
Because right now we're seeinga crazy contraction in the entertainment
industry.
Process was already on its way out.
Right.
Larry Moss used to talk aboutprocess being on its way out.
Now it's like we want product yesterday.
By the way, for our audience.
Larry Moss is like a reallywell known acting teacher.
Thank you.
Yeah, I worked with years agoand obviously you have.

(01:05:23):
And many have.
A couple times.
Yeah, yeah, a couple.
Yes.
I just wanted to let ourprobably audience that doesn't know
about acting teachers know whohe is.
Look him up.
He's a visionary.
What was it, what was his onebook was really great.
What is it?
Something to live or the Lifeof the actor Anyway.
Yeah, the Intent to Live.
The Intent to Live.
Yeah, yeah.
Great book.
So, so that's where I start,you know.
And, and, and again it's likewe don't, we don't know what that's,

(01:05:51):
that's going to do that.
We don't know what that'sgoing to do to society.
But, but all I'm saying is,you know, because the villains and
all this, the villains are us.
Right.
Like we, we live in a readymade world.
Give me more Ready made.
I think that's going to make areal art way more valuable because
the market is going to getflooded with superficial ideas, content,

(01:06:14):
product.
And so when you have the rawreal thing, it's going to hit people
in a different way, I think.
Yeah, Well, I even see it, I'mseeing it now with all the copy that
everyone is using and it'slike if you engage with chat GPT
enough, you know, you, youknow how it speaks.
Yeah.
And so you just see it andthen it's just like I just don't

(01:06:35):
enjoy it as much.
Like you see people that likecan't spell properly.
Or ever use grammar.
Now all of a sudden they havethe most polished like perfect sounding
like copy and you're like justI, I mean maybe I would judge your
lack of spelling and grammarbut at least you sounded like yourself,
you know.
And I, I say this is someonewho utilizes chat GPT.
You know, Joel and I use it tosupport us on our business.

(01:06:56):
You know, I, it supports mewith my writing as someone who has
ideas and stories.
Like I write a lot of stuffand then ChatGPT helps me a little
bit and then I go back andedit cr like the cut and paste like
element of it, like it'salmost so noticeable, you know, as
opposed to like a deeper co creative.
Well maybe I don't know ifthat's the right word but co process

(01:07:17):
and even then sometimes I'mjust like, like Joel and I, you know
we have group coachingprograms and, and, and emails and
newsletters and we're settingthings up and like it was just like
yesterday where I mean I hadthe most massive headache.
So I'm happy Joel was astraight G.
But like we were like tryingto get some emails that were going
to go out automatically for a program.
We're working on an email,working on an email sequence and

(01:07:38):
we decided to engage.
Sorry like a welcome sequence.
Well it's just the emailsequence for different like elements
of the program.
Yeah.
And like we're engaging Claude.
We like, we fed it like allthe material etc.
Etc.
And just what all keptproducing time and time again.
We were just looking eachother's like almost like vomit inducing
like literally, you know.

(01:08:00):
And I'm like this is takingway longer than if I just raw, if
I just raw dogged this.
Then I was like 100 you knowand we closed it up.
I brought up a note screen andI just had the cosmic download man.
Yeah.
I mean you're a writer too.
So you know, I was just in.
The flow, just banged out likestuff I'm really, really proud of.
And I'm like we never wouldhave ever gotten that if we took

(01:08:21):
the lazy routes.
The lazy route which actuallyis more time then, then, then the
other react if I can just tap in.
And the self esteem that comesfrom tapping in and bringing forth
the goods is like just worthit anyway.
100 the creative adversity, itgrows your self belief.
Right.
Overcoming.

(01:08:42):
Sitting in the bathtub for anhour and going how do I figure out
that third act?
Yeah.
And then a week later how do Ifigure out that third act?
I still can't.
And Then it comes to you in a meditation.
You're like, oh, yeah.
And then you give it to.
And you pitch it to someone.
They're like, oh, shit.
Yeah, exactly.
Do that is.
That is how we come of age.
And you're.
This is another one of my mainpoints, the fucking large language

(01:09:03):
model.
Don't get me started.
You know, once you take outall the stupid ass em dashes, there
is a sameness to the tone.
And tone as a writer is your identity.
Yeah, that's your fucking identity.
You find your identity on thepage through tone.
Right?
It's, it's not every story hasbeen told.
It's the way you tell the story.
It's the, it's, it's the wayyour characters talk, which tells

(01:09:26):
us about you.
And if you let the LLM becomeyour tone, we are on the way to a
crazy level of homogeny in art.
And it is going.
I don't know what it's goingto do.
But like, do you think,honestly, like, like I mentioned,
I hear you, I agree with you,but I'm not fearful of it because
I feel like real artists in away should like welcome it.

(01:09:46):
Yeah, all of you get dumbeddown, all of you become homogenized.
I'll keep doing my thing.
You know, this is.
Well, first off, going back toyou guys using it and I've used Claude
as well.
And look, I've sat with Claudeand I've pitched around an idea before
because I wanted to see whatit could do.
And I was.
And, and again, here's theother thing about you two guys.
You guys also have thoughtlong and hard about your ideas long

(01:10:08):
before chat ever was in the world.
You both thought about what doI care about?
How do I make strong pointsabout what I.
You know, you've done so muchoriginal thinking that sure, on some
level, chat can maybe be aplug in to amplifying that a little
bit.
But again, those people whofirst go to it for an idea and then
say, well, that idea is betterthan any idea I'll ever come up with.

(01:10:31):
Because look, writing is hard.
What I do with people, it's hard.
So why not just skip that?
Like people are like when you take.
Look, machines, automateddriving, right?
We got Google Maps, no oneknows a phone number.
But do we want it to automate something?
That's hard.
And it's hard because itchisels out an amazing fucking narrative.

(01:10:52):
Human.
And Joel, to your point,that's my thing with my writers because
I've seen it start to take them.
I'VE actually started to banit from sessions because I started
seeing it take a writer down aroad of not trusting herself.
And now she.
She wrote me the day and shegoes, I read an email from one of
my other coaches and I see.
I can see the large languagemodel all over it, and it's so boring.
They're saying the exact samethings I was writing.

(01:11:13):
She's like, you're so, soright, so I'll tell a story.
I had a pitch.
A client was doing a pitch toan executive the other day, and I
just said to chat.
Can you make this shorter?
It was about 27 minutes.
We needed to be about 17.
And chat changed everything.
It didn't make it shorter.
It changed contextual points.
And we were like this.
It felt like it sounded good.

(01:11:34):
And I read it, like, twonights before the pitch.
And she had written some ofit, I'd co written some of it, and
given her ideas.
And I was like, this does notfeel good.
Coming off the human tongue.
Something feels wrong.
So I went back like, you, Joel.
And I rewrote every singleline in that pitch.
Yeah.
And.
And I had her co write it with me.
And I was like, what do youthink we did?
Gave that pitch.
And the executive was like,that's the best pitch I've heard,

(01:11:57):
like, all year.
And every word was us.
And I think if we'd done theLLM version, it would have.
They would have been able toignore it because it would have felt
that same sameness.
Yeah, right.
We.
Because what stands out andwhat really clicks and connects with
someone in that moment, it's.
It's intangible.

(01:12:17):
It's like this different spark.
It's this different.
Different level of, like,energy or, like, something that smashes
you in the heart at a certain point.
And it could be at any pointin the thing.
And I just don't believe theLLM models are capable of that.
They're not tapped into theether, they're not tapped into emotion,
they're not tapped into, youknow, whatever's out there that possesses
us to put it on a page.

(01:12:37):
And again, you know, Joel, Idon't know, because I'm not a tech
person.
Right.
But maybe they will be able tosolve it.
Maybe they're able to make itmore human and whatever.
Whatever.
But I still think, like yousaid, the person who can think narratively
irl, which is what I say to myclients all the time, will be super
fucking valuable.
Yeah.
Go get that skill.
Learn how to drive a reallystrong point and a strong Argument

(01:12:59):
in the thought leadership space.
Learn how to, you know, think,think about in stories.
Escalations.
Right.
Story turns like get yourbrain patterned for that.
Because you are a betterwriter than the LLM.
The first problem is peoplethink the LLM is a better writer
than them and then you're lost.
Yeah.
Right.
In that moment, you're.
Because you're never going togo back.

(01:13:19):
You're never going to.
I wonder, I wonder how it'sgoing to be in the future.
Because like I'm 34 years old, right.
I've had many experienceswhere I'm like, I've had awesome
original ideas.
I've put them on paper.
I've been like, I'm reallyfucking proud of what I've written
here.
But for like new writers thathaven't had that feedback within
themselves and it's justoverridden by AI and they had, they

(01:13:43):
don't have that selfrecognition of I can actually produce
something great.
I'm curious how that dance isgoing to be for people coming up.
Yeah.
I mean, all I can think and isthat it has to be a personal revolution.
I mean, right.
It's like you have to.
Because you're never going toget the tech overlords to say, well,
we should stop this.

(01:14:03):
There's never going to be somesort of moral stop.
Or they're like, we don't knowwhere this is.
It's going to have to be you.
And I think it goes a lot tothe teachings of Here for the Truth
and rise above the herd.
It's like it's going to haveto be you that stops and goes, wait
a second.
I want to ideate on my own.
I want to learn.
I want to believe that myideas are super valuable and that

(01:14:23):
the machine can't do betterthan I can do.
So I'm going to go sit inmeditation, in journaling, in talking
with other people and workthis out on my own.
And I'm going to gainsomething that I never would have
gained by just saying, yeah,Chad, how should I start this first
act?
Give me those first 10 pagesand we'll go from there.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, also, it's like westarted this conversation and we
start all our conversationswith new guests off with what are

(01:14:45):
some rites of passage thatyou've gone through?
And like, what is a rite of passage?
Like, writing a story is arite of passage.
Taking something from nothingand creating it is a rite of passage.
And so it's like you're almostrobbing yourself of that rite of
passage as A creative person.
I mean, Kerouac, I mean allthese people who lived their work.

(01:15:06):
You know, I listened on thatMichael Sarian episode.
I was moved when he talkedabout the idea of duty, vocation
and duty.
And like for writers, youknow, there's, there's no line, right.
It's like their life is theirwriting and they live art.
They live in a life of art andit becomes their work.
You know when you seesomething and you're like a piece

(01:15:28):
of graphic design or art orwhatever and you go like, that's
amazing.
It's because that dude's liveda crazy life.
You see that amazing graphicdesign, it looks trippy.
It looks like an acid trip.
You're like, that dude's likebeen through it and studied everywhere.
And that's where that piece ofimagery came from.
And now any in Silicon Valleycan press a button and be like, look,
dude, look at this.
Crazy graphic designs came up with.

(01:15:49):
Dude doesn't have any of thelike lived experience or taste.
Yeah.
Like that is again.
And look even beyond theproduction element of what AI can
do.
It's like the richness of thelife available to you when you soak
in your art and youcontemplate your own ideation.
That in itself is invaluableand you can never trade that.

(01:16:12):
When at the end of the day youget to look back and think, wow.
All the time I spentjourneying with myself to produce
great art or to come up withamazing ideas like that in itself,
beyond what I can produce isworth it.
You know, resilience.
I mean, you, you, you, you.
Before I did emdr, I used tothink that my, my self medicating

(01:16:35):
drug of choice was acting class.
Because learning about myselfin roles taught me so much about
like just trying to figure out roles.
Like I learned I was healingmyself, right?
So like again, overcomingthese things, it's not just like,
well, I want to get good at writing.
It's like, no, you want to,you want.
You're crafting your identity.
Yeah.
You're finding out what youreally feel.

(01:16:57):
What really?
I say to people all the timewhen they come to my work, they're
like, well, I got an idea fora horror film.
And I'm like, well, what doyou care about?
What, what, what do you, whatare you on fire to talk about?
Because your work needs tostart with an objective like that.
Not like, oh, I want to writea horror film in a five million dollar
space.
That's aliens or whatever.
Yeah.
Carl Jung has a great quote.
He says, we do not possess creativity.

(01:17:18):
Creativity possesses us.
And I think when you engage inthese shortcuts, you rob yourself
of that connection.
You rob yourself of the musecoming and embracing you and having
that feeling.
I mean, it truly is when you.
When you solve something, it's.
It's truly spiritual.
And.
And when you share it andpeople go, thank you for that.

(01:17:39):
You listen to that song andyou cry.
You read that last chapter ofthe book.
I mean, I was just reading avery popular book, probably not on
your reading list.
Tomorrow and tomorrow andtomorrow, one of the biggest books
of 2024.
And I was weep the last.
I was weeping onto the pagebecause of the humanity.
I mean, it's just like, fuck, man.
She reached right into me andcrafted these characters that felt

(01:18:02):
like I knew them, right?
Like, damn, dude, it.
And.
And to do that, I guaranteeshe had to have multiple dark knights
of the soul.
We want dark.
We don't want to avoid darknights of the soul, right?
I would have never had thatreconciliation with your awesomeness
if I didn't have my own darknights of the soul.
My dark nights of the soul arethe reason why I'm here, the reason
why I have a business, thereason why people want to work with

(01:18:24):
me.
I love it, man.
And look, I hate to be an oldman yelling at clouds.
I've thought about this a lotbecause I always say in the thought
leadership space, it's hard tojust be against something, right?
It's hard to just look.
Whoa.
Against.
So I think in the solutionspace, again, it's, you know, get

(01:18:45):
hungry to go through thatcoming of age.
Get hungry for that on yourown, because you will stand apart.
That's the solution.
Go get hungry to come of ageas an artist, you know, to do what
Springsteen did and tap intotrauma that he never would have had
to trap.
Tap into if someone didn'tsay, I don't know if you.
I don't know what the record was.
I'm paraphrasing terribly, but.
But somebody looked at hisfirst record and was like, there's

(01:19:07):
more here.
And then on that secondrecord, he went in really deep and
went into his soul and thingsthat maybe he never wanted to share
and put it in the work.
And yeah, I mean, people.
People in the 80s, and they'reforever changed.
Listen that record.
Because they were like, Inever heard someone talk about their
trauma that way.
I never heard someone talkabout their pain that way.

(01:19:30):
The different ways people arehere for the truth, you know, And
I say this on this podcastoften, like the podcast Isn't just
let's talk about all thingsthat are happening out there.
But like, who are you?
What do you love?
What do you value?
Can you dive into the depthsof you and share that?
You know, do you have a deeplevel of self knowledge?
You know, what is the truth ofyour story, of your past, of your

(01:19:52):
present, you know, and bringthat into the world, you know, so
it's like the double meaning.
It's not just again, like, oh,every conspiracy, you know what I
mean?
Like, it's just really likethe things that we're talking about
here, like here for the truthas a writer.
What does that mean?
And, and you guys are alsoreframing the humic experience over
and over again, right?
It's like it's a reframe of onthe human experience and every time

(01:20:15):
it's reframed, somebody getssomething new and they may get the
piece that saves their life.
Yeah, man.
No, that's why, that's what Imean, the value.
And what I saw in the valuein, in the show when you started
at your assimos when we weresort of at odds was they may get
the piece, right?
Because that's, that's whatquestioning leads to.

(01:20:35):
Questioning leads to going,maybe I'm not right in that arena.
I mean, again, maybe.
And that's, that's where Ithink humility is good.
You know, like what I talkedabout earlier, like even the title
here for the truth, not wedidn't call the podcast.
We have the truth, we're herefor it.
And so why can't we haveconversations that might even be
really out there?

(01:20:55):
Like, like I tend to be a freespeech absolutist to us to a certain
degree.
And it's like, let's like, whyare we so fearful of just, just disagree
with something or be like, Idon't believe in that.
That's stupid.
Like, get the ideas out there,get the things out there.
We can grapple with them aslike free thinking beings and everyone's
free to then go, oh, that'sfull of shit.
Which we see, you know, butlike that's what I'm.

(01:21:17):
Yeah, man, that, that was ourinitial thing, you know.
Well, people are conflict diverse.
Which takes me to one lastpoint about AI that I would be remiss
if I didn't mention there weretwo other things that AI is also
a bit of a yes man.
It is always like, that'sgreat, let's go down that road.
And sometimes you need someoneto redirect you and be like, no,
those Ideas will neverconnect, or that narrative doesn't

(01:21:38):
have enough duration to lastas long as you think it's gonna last.
Like, that's another piece.
But the other thing I wannasay, Yossimos, in terms of being
here for the truth, I wouldalso be remiss if I didn't say that
so much of this thinkingdidn't come out of my own existential
dread about future proofing,my own business.
Right.
And future proofing, thewriting, the writing craft, it's.

(01:21:59):
There is some real.
And I think people have feltthat dread and go, well, the answer
to that dread is I'm justgonna adopt it wholehearted.
You know, Like, I'm just gonnaadopt it.
And so I.
I would be remiss to not admitthat there's not a part of me that
doesn't feel some sense ofexistential dread about, you know,
the future of my business, thefuture of writing, the future.
You know, I know the WGA isfeeling this way as well, and the

(01:22:21):
people in the publishing andauthor space are feeling this way
as well.
So, you know, I've thoughtabout it long.
I thought about it for solong, Joel, that I've changed.
I've changed viewpoints onthem a couple times.
Yeah.
And.
And I've.
It's moved.
And I think only recently I'vereally started to.
And, you know, you've.
You guys have seen probablythe two studies that have come out.
The one recently that saidthere was tons of cognitive debt

(01:22:43):
that Chat was creating andthat people's brains were atrophy,
being at about a 47 rate.
And then there was anotherarticle that came out that said college
students are straight updepressed because they feel like
they have no agency.
They don't.
You know, they don't.
They don't feel like they havetheir own ideas.
So I felt like there's been areal, like, alarm bell in me that's
like, you.

(01:23:03):
You got to speak out on this, man.
Like, you just have to.
And not just for fear of yourown business.
Because I have an entrepreneur mindset.
If I need to pivot, I can pivot.
But, like, you know, learningto write is really valuable to humanity.
And great stories, theyabsolutely evolve our culture.
Right.

(01:23:24):
I mean, Uncle Tom's Cabinallowed the Civil War to happen because
it got people thinking andreally feeling for the slave, you
know, the slaves.
I mean, books change, youknow, Ayn Rand.
I mean, these books change culture.
So, like, learning to writeand dig into your depths and share
your truth in a way we haven'theard that Is super important outside

(01:23:44):
of my own.
My own fear about the futureof my industries.
Like, can you imagine, like,Ayn rand like, having AI create 1300
pages of Atlas Shrugged?
And like, what the.
That would sound like and whatthat would be like, ugh.
You know, like, yeah.
I mean, yeah.
And like, I think.
I think ideation is.

(01:24:05):
Is the crux and you can use AIand it still serves a place because
it's like, okay, help me bemore productive with my writing.
Help me generate a schedulethat works for me.
I'm feeling stuck creatively.
Can you guide me to someexercises that can help unlock some
flow?
You know, it's like, it stillhas its purpose as a tool in certain

(01:24:26):
ways, but it's like, when itcomes to, like, replacing that ideation
phase, I think that's when,you know, things turn sour for sure.
I always say, I always say toit, don't offer new ideas or rewrite
any of the text.
Yes.
If I use it to organize, Isay, I don't want any new ideas from
you in this.
Yeah.

(01:24:46):
And yet I always find some.
But yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's like, I feel like I haveto be like, listen, why are you.
You're supposed to beintelligent and you're not.
You're being stupid right now.
I still go to it and say, hey,my stomach hurts.
Do you think I have stomach?
I still go to it, you know, Istill will have it be a.
Well, listen, it's served alot of value for me from a research

(01:25:07):
standpoint.
Like, if we're remodelingsomething or working in the garden,
like, I.
I like it.
It feels like it's like asearch engine on steroids in some.
In some regards, you know, andit has helped me put together some
things and because, you know,I feel like, you know, me, like,
I got little thoughts comingfrom everywhere, and it's just like,
oh, cool, let me sit down andget some ideas on the page.
It's helped me craft, youknow, my writing in a way.

(01:25:29):
But you're talking aboutspending a lot of time writing your
own stuff, editing, changingthings, you know, which I feel like,
I take it, it takes a.
Lot of time, you know, I'mfull, raw dog.
I'm full, like, just like Joe,I'm full, raw dog now.
Anytime it's me craftingeither a newsletter or anything that's
narrative, I will.
I won't even go there because that'd.

(01:25:51):
Be a good challenge.
Even more so now for me, too,to experience.
And, And.
But even I think what alsoBecomes more valuable is like even
messier writing.
Like yes.
Not.
Not even needing perfect humanprose I think stand out more than
anything else is just like,you know, the real thing.

(01:26:12):
Just like conscious streamingin a sense without it having to be
perfectly edited phraserethought about seven times.
We don't need three with acomma in every supporting sentence.
Like yeah, 100.
We want to see the edges, right?
Ye.
These like auto fictionspecialists, you know, like Rachel
cus.
I mean they're all.
They're like writing exactlywhat they're feeling at the exact

(01:26:33):
moment.
It's so like kind of dirtyand, and imperfect.
Like we just.
You can go right into it, youknow, like that's and, and memoir.
I mean intuitive digressionslike don't ever let chat do an intuitive
digression for you.
You want that to come rightfrom your own heart.
Yeah, it's inspiring.
It's a very inspiringconversation in so many different
ways.

(01:26:53):
You know, one, I've known youlonger than most people I'm connected
to in my life right now.
And I'm so grateful for ourrelationship, our friendship, you
know, even the journeys thatthe journey it's been on, you know,
where we've had a couplemoments where we're like, yeah, nah
man, we're not gonna talk fora couple years, whatever.
And man, to where it is now.
And I just like.
And I've always had deeprespect for you, you know, and.

(01:27:15):
And I just love everythingthat you're doing and I'm happy that
it worked out.
When I saw the other day we'rehaving this conversation and it's
like, yo, let's, let's us do apodcast, you know about this because
I think it's important and Ilove the way you talk about creativity
and yeah man, just.
I love the journey that you'vebeen on and I know it's just going
to continue and yeah, thanks for.
Thanks for being here with us.

(01:27:35):
Yeah, man, thanks for having me.
Joel, great to see you.
Hope to see you in personagain soon.
Totally, bro.
For sure, man.
Yeah, I'm super grateful thatwe had this conversation.
And you know, I want to givecredit to Nick again because the
difference in thisrelationship that allowed you two
to reconcile was that selfreflective aspect of Nick that continued
and persevered throughout allthe bullshit, throughout all the

(01:27:57):
programming that was thrown athim, you know, and for most people
I think in their lives and inour space that had dissonance with
friends, like that frienddidn't have the quote unquote, humility
that self respective piece oflet me be here for the truth at all
costs.
It never really kicked in andactivated where it's like you, I
feel like you crave equilibrium.
You craved restoring, youknow, rightness to your world more

(01:28:20):
than anything else.
And that's what allowed thisto be possible and allowed this beautiful
story to be shared here today.
Thanks, Joel.
Yeah.
All right, y' all, thanks for listening.
Oh, Nick, anything I sharewith our audience, man, like this
might be writers listening.
How can they contact you,engage you, find out about your work?
Hey man, if you're willing togo down that dark gauntlet to get

(01:28:42):
great at screenwriting and,and get, you know, be able to be
strong in a room and be ableto disrupt this industry, then you
can reach out to me.
@nickageonetv.com we have ourpodcast beyond the Script where we're
always talking about bothmindset and strategy and I'm usually
sharing the point of view oftrying to disrupt these silly ass
Hollywood norms.

(01:29:02):
So be sure to check out beyondthe Script.
Reach out to me @nickageonetvif you want to work with me to craft
something great that couldchange others lives and change your
own life in the making.
Awesome, man.
We'll have those links in the show.
Notes.
What, what level, is there aspecific level of writer that you
take on?
Or is it like anyone that's interested?
Like where, where's that positioned?

(01:29:22):
Usually it's, it's earlycareer or mid career screenwriters.
Usually once people have had acouple of wins, they generally don't
want help anymore or theydon't think they need help anymore.
So usually it's people whohave either had one win in the space,
in the industry space, orthey're a little bit past the aspiring.
They have some contacts,they've made some inroads.
But I think the thing thatseparates clients to people, you

(01:29:44):
know, the wheat from the chafffor people who work for me is people
who are really just hungrybecause I'm sort of an accelerator
to go deep and get so goodthat they can't, they can't be denied.
So they're all over the map.
I mean, you know, knowing alot about yourself is a good starting
place or having that, that's agood starting place for writers because
that's where we're going to start.

(01:30:04):
But yeah, I work with, I thinkit's usually early career screenwriters
to mid career screenwriters.
Usually people who've had fourto five wins, they've been on shows,
they feel like they don't needhelp anymore, and I have a whole
thoughts on that, but theyfeel like the teachability goes down,
but yeah.
Cool, man.
All right, y' all.
We'll have Nick's links in theshow notes.
Thanks for listening, andwe'll see you next time.

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Ep 249 - Nick Jobe | Healing, Reinvention, and Saying No to AI in Art

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep 249 - Nick Jobe | Healing, Reinvention, and Saying No to AI in Art