August 19, 2025 • 22 mins
In this episode of the HR Mixtape, host Shari Simpson sits down with Dr. Steve Yacovelli, owner and principal of Top Dog Learning Group, LLC. They delve into the critical topic of authentic allyship in the workplace, contrasting it with performative gestures often seen in organizations. This conversation is particularly timely as companies face increasing pressure to foster inclusive leadership and diverse cultures, especially with the rise of Gen Z in the workforce. Dr. Yacovelli shares insights on how organizations can genuinely support LGBTQ+ employees and the importance of aligning corporate values with actions.
Listener Takeaways:
-
Learn how to identify and combat performative allyship in your organization.
-
Discover why inclusive leadership is essential for employee experience and retention.
-
Explore strategies for fostering a culture of accountability and respect in the workplace.
Hit “Play” to gain valuable insights on creating a truly inclusive environment!
Guest(s): Dr. Steve Yacovelli, Owner and Principal, Top Dog Learning Group, LLC
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
You're listening to the HR Mixtape. Your podcast with
the perfect mix of practical advice, thought-provoking interviews, and
stories that just hit different so that work doesn't have to feel, well,
Joining me today is Dr. Steve Yacovelli, owner and
principal of Top Dog Learning Group, LLC. Dr. Yacovelli
(00:25):
specializes in fostering inclusive leadership and creating impactful, diverse
organizational cultures. He uses his extensive experience in
leadership development, empowering leaders to drive authentic
(00:47):
Yes, this is one of my favorite conferences of the whole year, so I'm glad
that we were able to do this live. Your background, your
vibe, your LinkedIn presence, it screams
everything that I wanted to learn about you and the work you're doing,
and very well done. Thank you, thank you. You showed up very authentically,
which is important. Thank you, thank you, that's the plan. Speaking of
(01:10):
authentic, right, I want to focus on allyship and how
does authentic allyship really work compared
Yes, the rainbow washing every June. The pink washing
every October. Yeah, it's, you know, what's sad
and interesting in these weird and wonderful times is, and
(01:32):
I'll just speak on behalf of the queer community being the gay leadership dude, but not
speaking on behalf of every queer person in the entire planet, but what
I hear in my circles, as well as with my client partners and DEI
in general, is that this shakeup of diversity, equity,
inclusion, and what's happening is kind of showing the true colors, no rainbow
pun intended, of companies who really are true allies. What
(01:55):
I find fascinating is the companies who really back down
when there was a little bit of pressure under their fire
under their feet, it's going to come back and bite
them. And when you start to see the numbers of Gen Xers
coming into the workplace, when you start to see, I mean, you know, I'm in my,
my, I'm a Gen Xer and I'm in JZ here, excuse me. But
(02:15):
as a Gen Xer, I mean, I haven't touched Chick-fil-A in decades. And
that's how the queer community is. Loyalty is a big deal. We look for
the folks not just who show up at a pride parade with their rainbow swag
going on, but who in August are also sending
amicus briefs to the Supreme Court on behalf of us for whatever issue is going
on. And that's going to stick. And so I think true allyship are
(02:37):
those who don't back down, who are the companies who say, you know what,
our corporate value is, say, inclusivity. We're going to stand by
it. Folks who are doing that right now, they're gonna succeed in
the next three, five years. And those who aren't, we are going
How have you addressed or talked to organizations? Because I've
heard this before in my career. Something as simple as, hey,
(02:58):
we can't afford, I'm using air quotes, we can't afford to
create gender neutral bathrooms. Some
of that stuff that seems like a no duh, we
put in all these business reasons why we can't do it.
So there are different ways you can show your inclusivity as a business, big
and small. Sure. Okay. That might be a legit excuse. We don't have the physical infrastructure.
(03:21):
Okay. But what else? Um, you know, I was just walking past the,
um, the, the, um, you know, they have portable bathrooms, they
have different things you can do. I mean, there's other ways, but you can do something small as,
Hey, here's a corporate policy that allows you to put your pronouns in
your email signature. I've had client partners who they weren't allowed to
do that. And I'm like, why? How much does that cost? And
(03:42):
it's an option thing. You can make it standard or not. But you can show
inclusivity and allyship in big ways. And yeah, and
then there's other ways. Let's figure out how we can use our employee network and
What do you think are some of the most significant barriers that HR faces
as they're trying to foster these more inclusive environments?
(04:03):
I think it starts at the top. A lot of my direct
client partners are HR professionals, executives, and what they
tell me is they're like, I want to do this, but I'm getting pushback from
those at the C-suite. where I have senior executives who
just don't, quote unquote, I'm using air quotes now, buy into how
inclusivity impacts our bottom line, even though the data is ridiculous. And
(04:24):
so I think that's the biggest barrier, is that lack of seen
and perceived executive sponsorship. And I actually approach
inclusivity as a change management project. I was an IBMer for a while. working
in change management. And so we say, just do the exact same
process that you would do for a new software implementation. Yes,
it's humans, but all the same steps that you do, including having
(04:46):
visible executive sponsorship, that's what makes or breaks a change project. You're
Yeah, for sure. Have you run into scenarios where
leadership has a hard time divorcing their personal
beliefs into their corporate
And that's sadly common. And you see that just
(05:09):
at various levels, people who are maybe longer tenure, you might
have a different philosophy than people who are newer in their professional journey. What
I tell every single client partner of mine is, what
are your corporate values? And I have yet to find an organization that
doesn't have something that points toward inclusivity, celebrate
differences, whatever. And I say use those as a sword and a shield. Because
(05:31):
that's the agreed upon way that every employee from
top to bottom in the org chart are supposed to do the work. And
if a senior executive, if a junior executive, if a
whoever isn't going along and playing by those values, then
that's an opportunity to have a conversation with them. Because they're not playing by the state of
Yeah. All right. I want to ask you kind of a complex question,
(05:57):
But I think it's important. You know, as you
look at the gamut of the queer community, right, it's not one
thing. It's a diverse community in
And I've run into scenarios where people
who are not part of the community will say things like, well, I don't know how
to address a transgender person, or I don't know how to address somebody
(06:20):
who is heterosexual, but they dress like
a woman because it makes them feel good, and that's how they want to show up. How
do we, as HR people, start to change the narrative that
it's not like you need permission, right? Like, they're not
requesting your permission to be themselves. It gets complicated.
Yeah, and I think we as HR professionals and
(06:43):
as workplaces have the opportunity to shape the culture. And so we
can set those parameters on what is expected and not expected within
the confines of our workplace culture. And so I think it's being
very crystal clear. One of the things that I've been saying to
a lot of folks is, Let's take it
back to the bare bones. What is your feedback environment like in
(07:04):
your workplace? And they're like, what? That's a standard leadership
101 thing. You should, as an organization, have some sort of state of way. It could
be the EECC method. There's so many models out there that are just simple. But
there are ways that we say, hey, when we provide feedback in a respectful way at this organization, here's
what we do. And then you use that on top of whatever scenario fits about
you. Hey, you mispronounced me five times. Then
(07:26):
providing that effective feedback in a respectful way, that's the norm. But that's also
holding each other accountable, i.e. back to the value system. And
I think it's also empowering all folks to
not go down the path of engaging in
silent collusion. If you're familiar with that term, it's when someone
says that disparaging remark, and I use an example in
(07:46):
my keynote that I'm doing later, and it's true, this executive said,
just as we're about to start this meeting, well, you know all women drive, and your
look on your face is exactly what the 39 of us in the room except
for this executive did. But we all looked and no one said a word. And
at that moment, we were engaging in silent collusion. And I think we can be better
at workplaces as HR people to encourage people to not do
(08:08):
that. Because when you don't engage in silent collusion, you create an
inclusive environment where people can just say, hey, I'm sorry, what did you mean by that
statement? And it's not, what did you mean by that statement? Then shields up,
people aren't going to be inclusive or open to the feedback. And
I think we can create those types of models and examples in
ourselves and with our senior executives that model the way to hold
each other accountable in that respectful way of what we
(08:32):
I think that also can be true, just how you live your everyday life.
I was at a conference much earlier this year and I was talking to this wonderful CEO
and he was talking about this woman that I should have on the
podcast. And he's like, she's an amazing woman founder. And I
stopped him right there. I said, Hey, listen, I was like, she's not a woman founder.
(08:54):
Oh my gosh, you're so right. I knew I could say that. I
didn't know this person very well. But it's something very simple
as that. We don't necessarily think how
much language impacts things and the
I was creating a class for a client not too long ago, and it
was on inclusive language. We had the pronoun thing in there, which of
(09:15):
course I knew, and some other things. But as I started researching certain
phrases, that we say in in very very common language
and and the history of those and where they started I was like oh my gosh and
I find myself correcting I was correcting an HR executive yesterday and
they're like and I said I'm sorry I don't mean to be like the HR police which I
know we are always labeled as that all the time but I'm like I just wanted to share that
(09:36):
with you and she's like I had no idea said I didn't either until maybe
like six months ago as this white cisgender gay dude But
it's just like, that's the fun thing. We're all in this together to learn. And
like with your example, you maybe didn't know that person, but it sounds like
you automatically had some semblance of trust. And that's what
we can all do. What can we do to build that rapport and that trust so that
(09:58):
when those hiccups happen, and they will happen to all of us, that
we can say, hey, let me course correct you. Oh, thank you for that. Now I know. Let's move on.
Yeah. Jason Sudeikis shared yesterday a little bit about Ted
Lasso and that approach of like curiosity and
like almost a little bit of dumbness to it, for lack of a better word.
Yeah. Like, oh, oh, that word had it like. If
(10:20):
we can bring more of that curiosity and just
I saw a meme or a cartoon or whatever, and it was this one
person was talking to this person in a wheelchair, and they're like,
how should I refer to you as a disabled? And they had
all these words, and he's like, just Bob. And it
really got to the root of it, didn't it? All my trans friends,
(10:43):
they're just like, just use the name that I use. I'm like, yes,
yes, let's do that. How hard is that? It costs nothing. And
the respect can go super far. And the last thing I'll say is,
I always remind people that diversity, everybody is diverse.
And I even heard that yesterday, someone had made that comment, and I was like, no, every
single human in your workplace is diverse. Even the whitest gender dudes, the
(11:06):
left-handed people, the parents. I mean, I use the five layers of
diversity by Garden Schwartz and Rowe as a way to explain to people, especially
my people who aren't the quote unquote traditional diversity, in
my inclusive leadership programs, and it really helps them feel included and seen
that, oh my gosh, because I'm in sales versus someone in accounting,
that can lend me looking at the world just a little bit differently. Yes,
(11:28):
yes it does. And of course, there's bigger and smaller ways that we look at the
world differently, like you being gay, I impact the world differently and
look at the world than someone who's not, but that's okay. They all contribute to
how we interact and experience, and if we honor those
Yeah. How have you coached leaders in
your partnership with them that come to you and say, okay,
(11:50):
I'm all in on allyship, I'm all in on inclusivity, but
I need the data to show that these programs are working? Yeah.
And that's a fair question. And I mean, especially as an external vendor, they
often, and I actually want this because it justifies them buying my
services. But I also find that organizations can
get lazy with the measurement strategies when it comes to corporate
(12:12):
learning, when it comes to inclusivity, when it comes to employee engagement. Yeah, you
might get that one data point here and there, but I think smart organizations are
looking at a holistic dashboard of the direct and indirect contributions
to moving the needle for, say, an inclusive leadership program or
whatever. And I think it's, if we're not asking
this, do you feel that you belong to our employee base, we're
(12:34):
missing a massive metric that we can go back and show that, oh,
98% of our people feel that they belong, fan-flippin-tastic. Or 12% feel that
they belong, ooh, that's an opportunity. So I think it
starts there, but it also takes money and resources. And
I think some organizations just wanna look at, say, butts in
(12:55):
Yeah. How have you, I like the metric around belonging. I
think what's interesting as I've thought about and
researched what Gen Z's priorities are, it's
fascinating. I think it's going to completely revolutionize work
in so many ways that we don't quite know yet because they
don't want to have a BFF at work. They have their BFF outside of
(13:16):
work. A work is a job. Yeah. And,
and for, I'm also Gen X for, for me, it's a
This is my life. This is my part of my identity. And it's not
the same. Yes. How does that change some of those concepts around
I love that you ask this question because I'm a data nerd as well. And
(13:40):
I've been reading all these different studies that came out in the last year that
really tell an interesting story and a different story than what's in the headlines. And
case in point, I love the Gen Zers. They are going to flip our
workplace on its head in a great way. 83% of
them, according to one study, expect their company to do diversity,
equity, inclusion work. And they won't go to
(14:02):
that place. So right there alone, that one data point, if you're listing as
an HR talent management person or whatever, you're
not going to get the best talent if you're not having these types of things. And
then looking at it through the rainbow lens, the queerness, I
believe it's 28% of Gen Zers identify as queer. adults.
So that's, that's higher than the 9% on the overall, which is, this is
(14:25):
Gallup that just came out a couple months ago. And so those two data
points alone, it's like, oh my gosh, if you're backing out of your pride events
and you're kicking off, you're kicking out your DEI efforts, like you're,
you're not doing yourself a service, especially in three years
from now, what 2030 is when Gen Z will, will be a
third of the workforce. It's like you have a third of the
(14:46):
workforce that expects you, most of them expect you to do DEI and a
third of them identify as queer. And that's just one
facet of diversity that's out there. So, yeah, companies need to be paying
attention to Gen Z. And if they're not, they are going to miss the boat very quickly.
Yeah. Well, and I like that you said earlier that the concept around,
you know, rainbow fine June or
(15:08):
Or pink wash in October. Because if your organization is
doing it right, those shouldn't be the only moments
that you're talking about different inclusion initiatives. One
of the things that we've done over the years that I've really loved is that as,
you know, there's these different celebratory months nationally, we kind
of lean into it from a different perspective. Meaning we'll bring in a speaker, we'll
(15:30):
offer food that's like aligned with that cultural expectation
or those types of things. And we'll have real conversations about
what that's like, and we'll help to teach about language and
some of those things. And those are super low lift things,
Yeah, you know, it's one of the things I do a lot of keynotes, both in person and virtual. And
(15:52):
yes, as the gay leadership dude, June is very busy. Typically, it
was a little quieter this year, I got to admit, because people's budgets
were a little weird. My three signature talks that I do are
meant to be universal. So I'll have the LGBT employee resource group
say, hey, we want to talk about that being a consciously inclusive leader program for
our queer folks. I said, yes, and invite every other ERG. Because
(16:12):
the strategies to be an inclusive queer leader are the same and to be as
inclusive female leader, black leader, insert all of the differences here.
And then we also couple that with, I really try to push them to do things
in an intersectionality effort. So I had one group that they have
a very new employee resource group that's young professionals, like fantastic way
to focus on the Gen Zers. And they said, well, you know,
(16:34):
but we want to partner with them as the LGBT employee resource group, because obviously
we have young queer people in that group. And I said, fantastic, do
a joint effort between your two ERGs. and I'll come in and talk about the
six leadership competencies you should focus on. That's a universal thing. And
it's really been fun to talk through these things like, for Black History
Month, who are your queer black people that you want to have a chat about? And
(16:54):
just really making it that, showing less of the, let's
silo it in one month and say, oh, you know what? By the
way, October is also LGBTQ plus history month. Let's have
a chat there. And make the different ways
of, I guess, allyship exposure be really
And that intersectionality piece, I think that's
(17:18):
really where some of the inclusion conversations should
focus on. Like you said, we've had these siloed
initiatives. We're not siloed people, right? We're super complex.
That's why I love that five layers of diversity model because it kind of shows that.
And it goes everything into personality as the core of what makes every
(17:39):
single human in the space unique. And that's true.
I mean, you know, twins, they're not the same. So, you know, I
think you're right. We are so complex and we are so intersectionality and,
you know, you might be a parent. Well, you are a parent. I am not a parent. So that's a
different experience that we have. I'm a canine parent. So that's a thing for
me. And so, you know, left-handed people, I always give this
example. I mean, gosh, in the 80s, I felt so
(18:02):
bad for our left handed friends who were like creating their their left
handedness on that right handed desk. But that was a way that it impacted their
life. Yeah. And if we think about it through that lens and know
that we are all going through these differences together, I think we'll we'll finally
Yeah, I love that. As we kind of wrap up our conversation, I'm
curious how you've coached HR leaders to handle
(18:25):
backlash or resistance internally. And I hate that
we have to sit in this space, but sometimes we do. Sometimes we
ourselves are not there yet. How have
I know I'm repeating myself, the values. I
go back to the mission and vision, but most likely the corporate values. Because at
the end of the day in the workplace, that's what we're supposed to do. Matter of
(18:47):
fact, I'm a little rabble rouser on social media, I
will say. Last summer, when it was the first of the Robbie
Starbucks, who was harassing different companies, like the
Lowe's and such, and they started pulling back, I started going
to their websites, taking screenshots of their corporate values, and I
would redline SharpieMarker, of course, virtually, where
(19:07):
like, oh look, you have a corporate value of inclusivity, yet you just did this. And
I was posting it, and sadly, I got backlogged because there was
too many of them. But it really made me sad that here's these companies
who verbally say, or say in
public, we value this, but then doing the opposite. And
that's disheartening for me as an external person. I can only imagine as
(19:28):
an HR professional inside what that looks like. I have a lot of friends who
were really upset with Target, and I have a lot of friends who actually lost their jobs from
Target. And I think we can learn from those experiences. I
think at the end of the day, as an HR professional, you have
your own personal values too. And if they align with not
just what's stated values on your corporate website, but
(19:49):
what's really lived, then that's great. If they're not,
then that's kind of some soul-searching. But it's also having that hard
conversation with the senior executives to say, look, we're
living these values this way, but we're stating them this way. That's a
disconnect, and people know it. And sending that alarm, and if
nothing happens to it, or there's lack of movement, then maybe we have to try
(20:10):
Yeah, and just like everything else, you know, as a fellow Gen
Xer, we didn't have social media tracking all of our behavior
and great choices that we had as teenagers. But that's not
the case now. Even in our organizations, it's not the case. So, you
know, you might think something is proprietary or,
you know, but I mean, you just hop on TikTok and look
(20:31):
at all the people who've recorded their terminations, you know, like very, very
public. So it is a different environment we have
to think of. As we wrap up our conversation and you look ahead
to the future, right, how do you anticipate inclusion, specifically
Yeah, well, we talked about the amount of Gen Zers, and I
(20:53):
think that's going to be a massive push. For organizations to really take
a notice and say, huh, how are we looking at
our queer and also ally team members and
figuring out how we're supporting them? I think as things
progress in our society, who knows what direction it's going to be, I
think it's companies having an opportunity to step up to
(21:13):
the plate. As we saw with marriage equality and say, you know
what, this is the right path we need to do regardless of how
it might hit our bottom line. Now I know that's very sensitive. And I mean,
I have lost business this year because companies are saying, you know what, we
need to pause that inclusive leadership program, Steve, that
you bring to us. And I hear that and I get that, but so
(21:34):
does all of your employees. And I think we need to be really mindful
as HR professionals what messages we're sending by
taking action or being silent. And I think that
what we do now is going to impact how we're perceived in
Yeah, for sure. Well, Steve, such a great conversation. Thank you. Thank
(21:55):
I hope you enjoyed today's episode. You can find show notes
and links at thehrmixtape.com. Come back
You're listening to the HR Mixtape. Your podcast with
the perfect mix of practical advice, thought-provoking interviews, and
stories that just hit different so that work doesn't have to feel, well,
Joining me today is Dr. Steve Yacovelli, owner and
principal of Top Dog Learning Group, LLC. Dr. Yacovelli
(00:25):
specializes in fostering inclusive leadership and creating impactful, diverse
organizational cultures. He uses his extensive experience in
leadership development, empowering leaders to drive authentic
(00:47):
Yes, this is one of my favorite conferences of the whole year, so I'm glad
that we were able to do this live. Your background, your
vibe, your LinkedIn presence, it screams
everything that I wanted to learn about you and the work you're doing,
and very well done. Thank you, thank you. You showed up very authentically,
which is important. Thank you, thank you, that's the plan. Speaking of
(01:10):
authentic, right, I want to focus on allyship and how
does authentic allyship really work compared
Yes, the rainbow washing every June. The pink washing
every October. Yeah, it's, you know, what's sad
and interesting in these weird and wonderful times is, and
(01:32):
I'll just speak on behalf of the queer community being the gay leadership dude, but not
speaking on behalf of every queer person in the entire planet, but what
I hear in my circles, as well as with my client partners and DEI
in general, is that this shakeup of diversity, equity,
inclusion, and what's happening is kind of showing the true colors, no rainbow
pun intended, of companies who really are true allies. What
(01:55):
I find fascinating is the companies who really back down
when there was a little bit of pressure under their fire
under their feet, it's going to come back and bite
them. And when you start to see the numbers of Gen Xers
coming into the workplace, when you start to see, I mean, you know, I'm in my,
my, I'm a Gen Xer and I'm in JZ here, excuse me. But
(02:15):
as a Gen Xer, I mean, I haven't touched Chick-fil-A in decades. And
that's how the queer community is. Loyalty is a big deal. We look for
the folks not just who show up at a pride parade with their rainbow swag
going on, but who in August are also sending
amicus briefs to the Supreme Court on behalf of us for whatever issue is going
on. And that's going to stick. And so I think true allyship are
(02:37):
those who don't back down, who are the companies who say, you know what,
our corporate value is, say, inclusivity. We're going to stand by
it. Folks who are doing that right now, they're gonna succeed in
the next three, five years. And those who aren't, we are going
How have you addressed or talked to organizations? Because I've
heard this before in my career. Something as simple as, hey,
(02:58):
we can't afford, I'm using air quotes, we can't afford to
create gender neutral bathrooms. Some
of that stuff that seems like a no duh, we
put in all these business reasons why we can't do it.
So there are different ways you can show your inclusivity as a business, big
and small. Sure. Okay. That might be a legit excuse. We don't have the physical infrastructure.
(03:21):
Okay. But what else? Um, you know, I was just walking past the,
um, the, the, um, you know, they have portable bathrooms, they
have different things you can do. I mean, there's other ways, but you can do something small as,
Hey, here's a corporate policy that allows you to put your pronouns in
your email signature. I've had client partners who they weren't allowed to
do that. And I'm like, why? How much does that cost? And
(03:42):
it's an option thing. You can make it standard or not. But you can show
inclusivity and allyship in big ways. And yeah, and
then there's other ways. Let's figure out how we can use our employee network and
What do you think are some of the most significant barriers that HR faces
as they're trying to foster these more inclusive environments?
(04:03):
I think it starts at the top. A lot of my direct
client partners are HR professionals, executives, and what they
tell me is they're like, I want to do this, but I'm getting pushback from
those at the C-suite. where I have senior executives who
just don't, quote unquote, I'm using air quotes now, buy into how
inclusivity impacts our bottom line, even though the data is ridiculous. And
(04:24):
so I think that's the biggest barrier, is that lack of seen
and perceived executive sponsorship. And I actually approach
inclusivity as a change management project. I was an IBMer for a while. working
in change management. And so we say, just do the exact same
process that you would do for a new software implementation. Yes,
it's humans, but all the same steps that you do, including having
(04:46):
visible executive sponsorship, that's what makes or breaks a change project. You're
Yeah, for sure. Have you run into scenarios where
leadership has a hard time divorcing their personal
beliefs into their corporate
And that's sadly common. And you see that just
(05:09):
at various levels, people who are maybe longer tenure, you might
have a different philosophy than people who are newer in their professional journey. What
I tell every single client partner of mine is, what
are your corporate values? And I have yet to find an organization that
doesn't have something that points toward inclusivity, celebrate
differences, whatever. And I say use those as a sword and a shield. Because
(05:31):
that's the agreed upon way that every employee from
top to bottom in the org chart are supposed to do the work. And
if a senior executive, if a junior executive, if a
whoever isn't going along and playing by those values, then
that's an opportunity to have a conversation with them. Because they're not playing by the state of
Yeah. All right. I want to ask you kind of a complex question,
(05:57):
But I think it's important. You know, as you
look at the gamut of the queer community, right, it's not one
thing. It's a diverse community in
And I've run into scenarios where people
who are not part of the community will say things like, well, I don't know how
to address a transgender person, or I don't know how to address somebody
(06:20):
who is heterosexual, but they dress like
a woman because it makes them feel good, and that's how they want to show up. How
do we, as HR people, start to change the narrative that
it's not like you need permission, right? Like, they're not
requesting your permission to be themselves. It gets complicated.
Yeah, and I think we as HR professionals and
(06:43):
as workplaces have the opportunity to shape the culture. And so we
can set those parameters on what is expected and not expected within
the confines of our workplace culture. And so I think it's being
very crystal clear. One of the things that I've been saying to
a lot of folks is, Let's take it
back to the bare bones. What is your feedback environment like in
(07:04):
your workplace? And they're like, what? That's a standard leadership
101 thing. You should, as an organization, have some sort of state of way. It could
be the EECC method. There's so many models out there that are just simple. But
there are ways that we say, hey, when we provide feedback in a respectful way at this organization, here's
what we do. And then you use that on top of whatever scenario fits about
you. Hey, you mispronounced me five times. Then
(07:26):
providing that effective feedback in a respectful way, that's the norm. But that's also
holding each other accountable, i.e. back to the value system. And
I think it's also empowering all folks to
not go down the path of engaging in
silent collusion. If you're familiar with that term, it's when someone
says that disparaging remark, and I use an example in
(07:46):
my keynote that I'm doing later, and it's true, this executive said,
just as we're about to start this meeting, well, you know all women drive, and your
look on your face is exactly what the 39 of us in the room except
for this executive did. But we all looked and no one said a word. And
at that moment, we were engaging in silent collusion. And I think we can be better
at workplaces as HR people to encourage people to not do
(08:08):
that. Because when you don't engage in silent collusion, you create an
inclusive environment where people can just say, hey, I'm sorry, what did you mean by that
statement? And it's not, what did you mean by that statement? Then shields up,
people aren't going to be inclusive or open to the feedback. And
I think we can create those types of models and examples in
ourselves and with our senior executives that model the way to hold
each other accountable in that respectful way of what we
(08:32):
I think that also can be true, just how you live your everyday life.
I was at a conference much earlier this year and I was talking to this wonderful CEO
and he was talking about this woman that I should have on the
podcast. And he's like, she's an amazing woman founder. And I
stopped him right there. I said, Hey, listen, I was like, she's not a woman founder.
(08:54):
Oh my gosh, you're so right. I knew I could say that. I
didn't know this person very well. But it's something very simple
as that. We don't necessarily think how
much language impacts things and the
I was creating a class for a client not too long ago, and it
was on inclusive language. We had the pronoun thing in there, which of
(09:15):
course I knew, and some other things. But as I started researching certain
phrases, that we say in in very very common language
and and the history of those and where they started I was like oh my gosh and
I find myself correcting I was correcting an HR executive yesterday and
they're like and I said I'm sorry I don't mean to be like the HR police which I
know we are always labeled as that all the time but I'm like I just wanted to share that
(09:36):
with you and she's like I had no idea said I didn't either until maybe
like six months ago as this white cisgender gay dude But
it's just like, that's the fun thing. We're all in this together to learn. And
like with your example, you maybe didn't know that person, but it sounds like
you automatically had some semblance of trust. And that's what
we can all do. What can we do to build that rapport and that trust so that
(09:58):
when those hiccups happen, and they will happen to all of us, that
we can say, hey, let me course correct you. Oh, thank you for that. Now I know. Let's move on.
Yeah. Jason Sudeikis shared yesterday a little bit about Ted
Lasso and that approach of like curiosity and
like almost a little bit of dumbness to it, for lack of a better word.
Yeah. Like, oh, oh, that word had it like. If
(10:20):
we can bring more of that curiosity and just
I saw a meme or a cartoon or whatever, and it was this one
person was talking to this person in a wheelchair, and they're like,
how should I refer to you as a disabled? And they had
all these words, and he's like, just Bob. And it
really got to the root of it, didn't it? All my trans friends,
(10:43):
they're just like, just use the name that I use. I'm like, yes,
yes, let's do that. How hard is that? It costs nothing. And
the respect can go super far. And the last thing I'll say is,
I always remind people that diversity, everybody is diverse.
And I even heard that yesterday, someone had made that comment, and I was like, no, every
single human in your workplace is diverse. Even the whitest gender dudes, the
(11:06):
left-handed people, the parents. I mean, I use the five layers of
diversity by Garden Schwartz and Rowe as a way to explain to people, especially
my people who aren't the quote unquote traditional diversity, in
my inclusive leadership programs, and it really helps them feel included and seen
that, oh my gosh, because I'm in sales versus someone in accounting,
that can lend me looking at the world just a little bit differently. Yes,
(11:28):
yes it does. And of course, there's bigger and smaller ways that we look at the
world differently, like you being gay, I impact the world differently and
look at the world than someone who's not, but that's okay. They all contribute to
how we interact and experience, and if we honor those
Yeah. How have you coached leaders in
your partnership with them that come to you and say, okay,
(11:50):
I'm all in on allyship, I'm all in on inclusivity, but
I need the data to show that these programs are working? Yeah.
And that's a fair question. And I mean, especially as an external vendor, they
often, and I actually want this because it justifies them buying my
services. But I also find that organizations can
get lazy with the measurement strategies when it comes to corporate
(12:12):
learning, when it comes to inclusivity, when it comes to employee engagement. Yeah, you
might get that one data point here and there, but I think smart organizations are
looking at a holistic dashboard of the direct and indirect contributions
to moving the needle for, say, an inclusive leadership program or
whatever. And I think it's, if we're not asking
this, do you feel that you belong to our employee base, we're
(12:34):
missing a massive metric that we can go back and show that, oh,
98% of our people feel that they belong, fan-flippin-tastic. Or 12% feel that
they belong, ooh, that's an opportunity. So I think it
starts there, but it also takes money and resources. And
I think some organizations just wanna look at, say, butts in
(12:55):
Yeah. How have you, I like the metric around belonging. I
think what's interesting as I've thought about and
researched what Gen Z's priorities are, it's
fascinating. I think it's going to completely revolutionize work
in so many ways that we don't quite know yet because they
don't want to have a BFF at work. They have their BFF outside of
(13:16):
work. A work is a job. Yeah. And,
and for, I'm also Gen X for, for me, it's a
This is my life. This is my part of my identity. And it's not
the same. Yes. How does that change some of those concepts around
I love that you ask this question because I'm a data nerd as well. And
(13:40):
I've been reading all these different studies that came out in the last year that
really tell an interesting story and a different story than what's in the headlines. And
case in point, I love the Gen Zers. They are going to flip our
workplace on its head in a great way. 83% of
them, according to one study, expect their company to do diversity,
equity, inclusion work. And they won't go to
(14:02):
that place. So right there alone, that one data point, if you're listing as
an HR talent management person or whatever, you're
not going to get the best talent if you're not having these types of things. And
then looking at it through the rainbow lens, the queerness, I
believe it's 28% of Gen Zers identify as queer. adults.
So that's, that's higher than the 9% on the overall, which is, this is
(14:25):
Gallup that just came out a couple months ago. And so those two data
points alone, it's like, oh my gosh, if you're backing out of your pride events
and you're kicking off, you're kicking out your DEI efforts, like you're,
you're not doing yourself a service, especially in three years
from now, what 2030 is when Gen Z will, will be a
third of the workforce. It's like you have a third of the
(14:46):
workforce that expects you, most of them expect you to do DEI and a
third of them identify as queer. And that's just one
facet of diversity that's out there. So, yeah, companies need to be paying
attention to Gen Z. And if they're not, they are going to miss the boat very quickly.
Yeah. Well, and I like that you said earlier that the concept around,
you know, rainbow fine June or
(15:08):
Or pink wash in October. Because if your organization is
doing it right, those shouldn't be the only moments
that you're talking about different inclusion initiatives. One
of the things that we've done over the years that I've really loved is that as,
you know, there's these different celebratory months nationally, we kind
of lean into it from a different perspective. Meaning we'll bring in a speaker, we'll
(15:30):
offer food that's like aligned with that cultural expectation
or those types of things. And we'll have real conversations about
what that's like, and we'll help to teach about language and
some of those things. And those are super low lift things,
Yeah, you know, it's one of the things I do a lot of keynotes, both in person and virtual. And
(15:52):
yes, as the gay leadership dude, June is very busy. Typically, it
was a little quieter this year, I got to admit, because people's budgets
were a little weird. My three signature talks that I do are
meant to be universal. So I'll have the LGBT employee resource group
say, hey, we want to talk about that being a consciously inclusive leader program for
our queer folks. I said, yes, and invite every other ERG. Because
(16:12):
the strategies to be an inclusive queer leader are the same and to be as
inclusive female leader, black leader, insert all of the differences here.
And then we also couple that with, I really try to push them to do things
in an intersectionality effort. So I had one group that they have
a very new employee resource group that's young professionals, like fantastic way
to focus on the Gen Zers. And they said, well, you know,
(16:34):
but we want to partner with them as the LGBT employee resource group, because obviously
we have young queer people in that group. And I said, fantastic, do
a joint effort between your two ERGs. and I'll come in and talk about the
six leadership competencies you should focus on. That's a universal thing. And
it's really been fun to talk through these things like, for Black History
Month, who are your queer black people that you want to have a chat about? And
(16:54):
just really making it that, showing less of the, let's
silo it in one month and say, oh, you know what? By the
way, October is also LGBTQ plus history month. Let's have
a chat there. And make the different ways
of, I guess, allyship exposure be really
And that intersectionality piece, I think that's
(17:18):
really where some of the inclusion conversations should
focus on. Like you said, we've had these siloed
initiatives. We're not siloed people, right? We're super complex.
That's why I love that five layers of diversity model because it kind of shows that.
And it goes everything into personality as the core of what makes every
(17:39):
single human in the space unique. And that's true.
I mean, you know, twins, they're not the same. So, you know, I
think you're right. We are so complex and we are so intersectionality and,
you know, you might be a parent. Well, you are a parent. I am not a parent. So that's a
different experience that we have. I'm a canine parent. So that's a thing for
me. And so, you know, left-handed people, I always give this
example. I mean, gosh, in the 80s, I felt so
(18:02):
bad for our left handed friends who were like creating their their left
handedness on that right handed desk. But that was a way that it impacted their
life. Yeah. And if we think about it through that lens and know
that we are all going through these differences together, I think we'll we'll finally
Yeah, I love that. As we kind of wrap up our conversation, I'm
curious how you've coached HR leaders to handle
(18:25):
backlash or resistance internally. And I hate that
we have to sit in this space, but sometimes we do. Sometimes we
ourselves are not there yet. How have
I know I'm repeating myself, the values. I
go back to the mission and vision, but most likely the corporate values. Because at
the end of the day in the workplace, that's what we're supposed to do. Matter of
(18:47):
fact, I'm a little rabble rouser on social media, I
will say. Last summer, when it was the first of the Robbie
Starbucks, who was harassing different companies, like the
Lowe's and such, and they started pulling back, I started going
to their websites, taking screenshots of their corporate values, and I
would redline SharpieMarker, of course, virtually, where
(19:07):
like, oh look, you have a corporate value of inclusivity, yet you just did this. And
I was posting it, and sadly, I got backlogged because there was
too many of them. But it really made me sad that here's these companies
who verbally say, or say in
public, we value this, but then doing the opposite. And
that's disheartening for me as an external person. I can only imagine as
(19:28):
an HR professional inside what that looks like. I have a lot of friends who
were really upset with Target, and I have a lot of friends who actually lost their jobs from
Target. And I think we can learn from those experiences. I
think at the end of the day, as an HR professional, you have
your own personal values too. And if they align with not
just what's stated values on your corporate website, but
(19:49):
what's really lived, then that's great. If they're not,
then that's kind of some soul-searching. But it's also having that hard
conversation with the senior executives to say, look, we're
living these values this way, but we're stating them this way. That's a
disconnect, and people know it. And sending that alarm, and if
nothing happens to it, or there's lack of movement, then maybe we have to try
(20:10):
Yeah, and just like everything else, you know, as a fellow Gen
Xer, we didn't have social media tracking all of our behavior
and great choices that we had as teenagers. But that's not
the case now. Even in our organizations, it's not the case. So, you
know, you might think something is proprietary or,
you know, but I mean, you just hop on TikTok and look
(20:31):
at all the people who've recorded their terminations, you know, like very, very
public. So it is a different environment we have
to think of. As we wrap up our conversation and you look ahead
to the future, right, how do you anticipate inclusion, specifically
Yeah, well, we talked about the amount of Gen Zers, and I
(20:53):
think that's going to be a massive push. For organizations to really take
a notice and say, huh, how are we looking at
our queer and also ally team members and
figuring out how we're supporting them? I think as things
progress in our society, who knows what direction it's going to be, I
think it's companies having an opportunity to step up to
(21:13):
the plate. As we saw with marriage equality and say, you know
what, this is the right path we need to do regardless of how
it might hit our bottom line. Now I know that's very sensitive. And I mean,
I have lost business this year because companies are saying, you know what, we
need to pause that inclusive leadership program, Steve, that
you bring to us. And I hear that and I get that, but so
(21:34):
does all of your employees. And I think we need to be really mindful
as HR professionals what messages we're sending by
taking action or being silent. And I think that
what we do now is going to impact how we're perceived in
Yeah, for sure. Well, Steve, such a great conversation. Thank you. Thank
(21:55):
I hope you enjoyed today's episode. You can find show notes
and links at thehrmixtape.com. Come back
Popular Podcasts
NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal
Gregg Rosenthal and a rotating crew of elite NFL Media co-hosts, including Patrick Claybon, Colleen Wolfe, Steve Wyche, Nick Shook and Jourdan Rodrigue of The Athletic get you caught up daily on all the NFL news and analysis you need to be smarter and funnier than your friends.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com