Hostage Negotiation Tactics: Every HR Pro Should Know with Scott Tillema

In this episode of the HR Mixtape, host Shari Simpson sits down with Scott Tillema, corporate trainer, retired SWAT hostage negotiator, and co-founder of the Negotiations Collective. Scott draws from his experience as an FBI-trained negotiator to share how HR professionals can use proven negotiation and communication techniques to manage high-stakes conversations with confidence.

Listener Takeaways:

• Why listening is your most powerful negotiation tool as an HR leader.

• How to use emotional intelligence to build trust, even in tough conversations.

• Strategies for staying grounded when negotiations get emotional.

• Why silence can be one of the most effective tools in HR conversations.

Guest(s): Scott Tillema, Keynote Speaker | Corporate trainer | Retired SWAT Hostage Negotiator | Founder, Negotiations Collective

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
you
You're listening to the HR Mixtape, your podcast with the perfect mix of practical advice,thought-provoking interviews, and stories that just hit different so that work doesn't
have to feel, well, like work.
Now, your host, Sherry Simpson.
Joining me today is Scott Tillema, corporate trainer and retired SWAT hostage negotiatorwith the Negotiations Collective.

(00:25):
As an FBI trained negotiator, Scott brings unique insights into high stakes communication,negotiation strategies and crisis leadership, helping HR professionals handle complex
interpersonal dynamics confidently.
Scott, thank you so much for sitting down and talking with me on the podcast.

(00:45):
what I be.
HR Mixtape is the place to be.
I love it.
You have such a fascinating background and I really want to focus on negotiation becausethat's something I think in the HR space we don't spend enough time on from talent
acquisition and working from that perspective as well as kind of negotiating the thingsthat we want or the business objectives that we think are important.

(01:09):
So what are some of the fundamental skills when it comes to negotiation that HR leaders
really need to start adopting so that they can handle some of these criticalconversations.
Having a background in negotiation, I've realized that this is one of the most importantskills you can have to find success.
And negotiation is really almost a collection of smaller skills of communication,connection, conflict resolution, difficult conversations.

(01:35):
And this is what HR is doing.
HR is having difficult conversations all the time because part of it is your role.
But part of it is the leaders and managers in the organization realize, oh, we got a toughconversation we need to have.
So let's push this over to HR and you get dumped on with these tough conversations thatothers are having.
So I think that when HR pros are learning about negotiation, they're getting stronger,finding more success and getting better at their jobs because they're getting good at all

(02:02):
the things you need to find success for an organization.
What do you think are some of the ways that HR can build trust in that conversation prettyquickly?
Because I've been in scenarios where I've had to have tough conversations with people,maybe going through a severance agreement.
And there is that part of HR that has to stay legal, quote unquote, right?

(02:24):
But also you want to have that humanity and trust when you're having these conversations.
Right, and for those of us outside of HR, let me tell you, HR is intimidating becauseusually you have power.
You can put me on the PIP to EAP and you've got power over me.
So I'm coming in to a meeting with HR already a bit concerned, a bit defensive.
And I think that putting me on the same level, meaning you are listening to what I have tosay.

(02:50):
We are having a real conversation.
It's not just a directed top to bottom conversation.
It goes a long way.
and allowing me to take a breath and realize that I'm going to be okay.
Helping to understand what this conversation is about, putting that on the table reallyearly can go a long way to say, all right, am I getting fired here?
That's my biggest concern.
No, we need to talk about performance or we need to talk about an issue.

(03:12):
And hearing what I have to say, listening, being curious can go a long way.
People like to be heard.
And people always have an explanation for what they did.
Maybe I was wrong in what I did or what I said.
but let me help you understand the context.
Well, why did that?
So being a good listener is foundational.
And as a professional negotiator, that was one of the first things that we were taught tobe an active listener, to learn the eight skills of active listening.

(03:39):
And your power is information and options.
How can I get that if I'm not listening to the person that I'm speaking with?
Yeah, that's such a good point that I've often seen HR professionals not take thatlistening approach.
And it does go a long way.
You you've had to have some intense hostage negotiation type experiences in your career.

(03:59):
How did you leverage emotional intelligence in those moments?
And what can we learn from that as HR pros?
thing that we all need to understand that we are emotional people.
That's what makes us uniquely human.
We don't have to be embarrassed that we're emotional.
We don't have to try to hide that we're emotional.
Sometimes we're told, leave your emotions at the door.
Let's keep it professional.

(04:19):
But how do we separate ourselves from our emotions?
And that's tough to do.
So first of all, realize that emotion is normal.
It's natural.
It's okay.
And if we can recognize the emotion that somebody else is feeling and know how that feels.
and can connect with them on that level, that goes a long way to tell me I'm not alone.

(04:40):
I'm not weird for feeling this negative thought right now.
There's nothing wrong with me.
This is totally rational.
It's totally normal.
It's okay to feel that.
And let's use emotion in the conversation rather than let's be logical, use, you know,thought, reason, and very linear.
Emotion is okay.
So emotional intelligence starts with the idea of we are emotional and that's okay.

(05:04):
How did you learn to separate your own emotional reactions in a scenario?
And when I mean by that as a guess, we have to use emotion, we have to be empathetic, andwe have to be personable.
But there are scenarios where you kind of take that on internally, and that can reallythrow off your ability to negotiate and stay level-headed.

(05:26):
What are some tactics that you use to kind of keep yourself grounded?
Right, and the great negotiators practice this all the time because when we get into thesetough conversations, we're going to be feeling it.
There's going to be things done or said that are going to trigger us in different ways.
So I think that the best negotiators are very comfortable and very experienced.
And this is practicing our difficult conversations and our skill building all the time.

(05:49):
People say, how do I practice active listening skills?
Next time a scammer calls you up and wants to steal your credit card information, you arenot allowed to hang up the phone until you go through the eight skills of active
listening.
And you're going to practice with somebody and you're going laugh about it in the endbecause you know they're trying to steal your credit card or get you to wire money.
But it's just another opportunity to practice these skills.

(06:10):
So if we get good at doing this routinely, when it counts, this is going to be anotherroutine.
Something that I do regularly, as familiar, it's not
I'm going back to the class, checking the spreadsheet, checking the PowerPoint andfiguring out, all right, what's the technique I use here?
This is just who you are because you are so good at it.
It goes from something you know to a skill that you have to who you are.

(06:34):
And then it becomes very natural.
And when you're that good at it, you can really be present with the person because you'renot checking your notebook.
What do I need to say here?
You can be very present because you know, I'm so good at this.
What I'm going to say, how I'm going to say it, when I'm going to say it.
And that's when you form some powerful connections.
the idea of practicing with a spam caller because like they don't know what's happeningand it's really good for you and you don't have to have that necessarily awkward feeling

(07:00):
because like you're never gonna see this person again like they're not probably gonna callyou again because at the end of that conversation they're gonna be so annoyed but like you
know what I mean such a good idea
and win and then you win again.
think you can get through that in three to five minutes if you're pretty skilled and verynaturally you can practice all these skills and then you get to hang up on them.
I love that.
What are some of the most common mistakes that you've seen people and or HR make duringsome of these high stakes negotiations?

(07:27):
People who don't manage themselves first become very problematic.
I think the most important thing in our mind has to be what is my goal here?
What am I trying to accomplish?
We get sidetracked from that and that's where things go wrong because it becomes about me,it comes about my need to be right, it becomes about my ego.

(07:47):
And if we can set aside those things and be very focused, my goal of this conversation isto achieve this.
Then when somebody calls you a name,
or critiques you about this or says something horrible about your organization or yourteam, we can let them know your feedback's important and I'd like to hear more about that.
But in this conversation right now, we need to have a discussion about this.

(08:10):
So people are very, very skilled at sidetracking others.
And the reason is because it works.
I can get you off your game, we're talking about something else.
Now all of a sudden I'm a victim here and...
We've forgotten completely what we're talking about.
Let's stay focused very clearly, right at the top of your piece of paper.
What is my goal here?
What's the purpose of this conversation, this negotiation?

(08:32):
And if we can stay focused on that, we're gonna find more.
I've had that very true in my career.
once had, um it was a family owned company.
So was a family member who came in my office.
They were upset about something and they were screaming.
mean, losing their mind on me.
I was like, almost word for word, was like, I really do want to hear what you have to say,but this is not appropriate.

(08:56):
And we're not going to have this conversation while you're yelling at me.
So if you need to take a minute, that's great.
If we want to schedule a meeting later in the day, that's also fine.
I do want to hear you, but this is not the way to do it.
And you're demonstrating to them that this tactic, and it's a tactic, is not going towork.
Crusher is not going to work.
We are going to have this conversation.

(09:17):
And if truly this isn't the right time, I want to make sure that it's right for you.
But now they have to realize, all right, well, that didn't work.
I'm going to either have to try something else or at some point going to need to sit downwith you and allow you to lead us through that conversation.
yeah.
it's really, that can be a very tough thing, think, for uh HR professionals who are maybeeven newer in their career and they're not used to that kind of really heightened emotion

(09:40):
that sometimes our employees give us.
Right, no one is coming to HR because it's a wonderful, easy day.
We're having a barbecue, serving some ice cream.
HR, just want to let you know things are really good.
HR is getting involved when things are tough.
And I think that's why there's such a similarity and interest in my work as a hostagenegotiator, because people won't call us on a good day.

(10:01):
We exclusively have tough conversations.
Yeah.
And that's what you and your teams are doing.
Yeah.
Have you, as you've gone through this experience in your life, um what are maybe some ofthe mistakes you made early on that we can learn from to not make ourselves?
Yeah, and there's many of them, of course.

(10:21):
But I've learned that under stress and under pressure, we behave a little bit differently.
And how we communicate is how we make people feel.
And so often people say, well, prepare for your difficult conversation.
So you're preparing your points of what you're going to say.
And people will do this if they're preparing.
They're going to write down, here is the point I need to make.
Here's the next point.
But how many people practice the delivery?

(10:43):
of what they're saying.
So you're thinking about what you're going to say, but nobody sits down and practices howthey're going to say it.
Because how we communicate with others, first of all, and how we choose to whether it betext message, phone call, in person, Zoom, that matters.
But the delivery is the rate, the rhythm, the pressure, the volume, the tone of ourconversation.

(11:04):
And each one of these things can be adjusted.
And when we're doing a real negotiation with lives on the line, I've got a coach sittingright across from me
that is watching each of these different areas of delivery, making sure that my deliveryis just right.
Hey, let's slow it down a little bit.
Let's take down the volume.
And that's kind of tough to do in a real conversation in the boardroom, but this is wherewe have to practice.

(11:27):
To say, I'm mindful of this delivery, because our delivery impacts how people feel aboutus.
We're not making decisions so much about what's being said, but how it's being said.
I'm going to remember how you made me feel.
And you made me feel a certain way.
by your delivery.
So I would challenge people to practice your delivery.
And I didn't do that early on nearly enough.

(11:47):
And when I was getting the coaching is, are you aware of how fast you're talking?
You're creating anxiety because you're speaking so quickly.
So, okay, I didn't realize how I was delivering this.
So know that under stress and under pressure, we're going to behave differently.
So let's practice not what's being said, but how we're going to say it.
And this minor little adjustment that anyone can do.

(12:09):
is going to have a really positive impacts on our interactions.
I this was several years ago, we do a lot of video recording at Pilosity.
And I was being recorded for like a clip we were using internally.
And I got to preview the clip before, you know, they cut it up.
And I didn't realize that when I think that the facial expression I was making, it wasterrible.

(12:35):
It was so bad.
And so I wouldn't have known that.
And it was definitely something I've had to work on now.
Like when I'm speaking and I'm thinking,
It's like I have to be very cognizant of what my face is doing because I don't wantsomebody to misinterpret what's happening.
Right.
The non-verbals are huge.
Yeah.
And we don't have any awareness of the non-verbals when we're in such tough conversations.
But I think this leads to another important point of you are coaching yourself by watchingthis.

(13:00):
How many people don't like getting feedback?
They don't like getting coaching because they feel that they're being attacked.
They feel that someone's being too critical of me.
Again, what is my goal here to be my very best negotiator self?
Yeah.
So I should be asking for this all the time.
Hey, could I have some feedback on this next talk I give?
Could I have a feedback on this conversation, on my leadership style?

(13:23):
Because it's about being the very best we can be, not about my feelings in the moment.
Yeah, for sure.
um What role do you think silence plays in an effective negotiation?
it's great.
It's great.
This is the best.
And people don't ever use it.
It's one of the eight skills of active listening.
And what silence can do is one of two things.

(13:44):
If you are listening to somebody, your power is information and options.
By being silent, you are opening the door for them to continue talking.
People are uncomfortable in silence and they want to fill it.
If I want to be a great listener, all I need to do is be quiet and allow them to fill it.
So that's a great one.
But also with silence,
it can draw attention.

(14:05):
And politicians have this figured out pretty nicely.
If I get up to the microphone and I hold in silence for a few seconds, all of a suddeneverybody's listening in.
They wanna know what's going on.
And I think this is actually more effective virtually than in person.
Because virtually, if you hold silence when you're supposed to talk, you've got everyone'sattention.
They just think their internet went down, they're checking the cat, they don't know whatquite happened.

(14:25):
And now you can powerfully deliver it.
And I think the powerful messaging comes when you have people's attention and silence cango a long way of bringing that in.
Well, and you see that in those really great keynote speakers that they do have these longpauses and they'll make a point and then they'll pause and they'll kind of let the
audience think about it.
So what a great tactic to bring into negotiations for sure.

(14:47):
have to.
Yeah.
Don't be afraid of silence.
I love that.
So if you're very, very new to this and you haven't done this before, what are some of thefirst steps an HR practitioner should take to, know, is there a book they should read?
Is there like, what are the first steps you think for them to really start to pushthemselves in this skill?

(15:07):
But I think that committing to learning and whatever that looks like, if you are a bookreader, there's great books on hostage negotiation, Never Split the Difference is probably
one of the most uh popular negotiation books out there.
So that might be a good book to pick up.
But there's podcasts that you can listen to.
Negotiate Anything is the number one negotiations podcast in the world.

(15:27):
Negotiation Ninja, there's a couple good ones out there.
If you're a podcast person, there's TED Talks out there.
There's great videos.
But to say I am going to commit.
to being great at this, and that could be five or 10 minutes a day.
And all of us have five or 10 minutes a day.
So the first step is a personal commitment.
I'm going to be good at this.
So it starts with building that knowledge, then it moves into skill building.

(15:50):
Are we gonna practice some of the things we learn?
Go from knowledge to skill building, and people are gonna notice.
And that is going to put jet fuel on what you're doing.
Because when people commit to being better listeners, better communicators, betternegotiators, better conflict resolvers, people love that.
because they want to be heard.
They love that connection.
And I've never had someone come back to me who's been in my class to say, hey, Scott, I'vebeen working hard on what you're teaching around negotiation and communication.

(16:16):
know what?
People don't like it.
They don't like that I listen to them.
They don't like I'm connecting with them deeply.
People are going to notice.
They're going to love it.
And that's a huge piece of encouragement to keep going.
Yeah, as we wrap up our conversation, my last question for you is, you know, as theworkplace has started to really evolve in hybrid environments and fully remote, how does

(16:40):
that potentially change how HR should be approaching some of these critical conversations?
I think that acknowledging is sometimes there is a disconnection when we're not physicallyclose, that there is power in being physically close.
So if we can have those opportunities, let's use that.
But acknowledge because we're in a remote situation, because I'm a hundred, a thousandmiles away, I just want to have some dedicated time that you and I can connect.

(17:05):
I want to check in.
I want to hear how you are doing.
What are you challenged with?
What do you need?
Because I'm not there to directly observe it.
I'm going to
rely a little bit more on your self-report.
So I think that it's more important that we get more time, both about the tasks at handand specifically the technical things that we're doing, but also the whole person.

(17:25):
I want to make sure that you have what you need from me because people don't quit theirjobs, they quit their leaders, they quit their boss.
And if I come in and have a feeling my boss cares about me, my HR team is concerned aboutthe resources, the humans in the company, how much more connected would I be?
And if I could share with you, here's what I really need.
Here's what my concerns are.

(17:47):
What, what training can we bring?
How can we partner together to make this better?
Wow.
Now I'm not alone.
Now I'm not looking for the new job.
Now I'm not quiet quitting.
I feel like part of the team.
feel supported.
So let's take that time and have these real connections.
Yeah, it's got such great advice.
Thanks for sitting down with me for a couple minutes.
Thanks for having me.

(18:08):
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