October 21, 2025 • 22 mins
In this episode of the HR Mixtape podcast, host Shari Simpson welcomes Margaret Andrews, author of Manage Yourself to Lead Others and a leadership educator at Harvard University. They delve into the critical role of self-awareness in effective leadership, especially in today's fast-paced, hybrid work environments. This conversation is timely as organizations navigate complexities like AI integration and the evolving employee experience, emphasizing the need for inclusive leadership and personal growth.
Listener Takeaways:
-
Learn how understanding your values can guide decision-making under pressure.
-
Discover why self-awareness is essential for fostering strong interpersonal skills in leadership.
-
Explore strategies for creating a culture of open communication and feedback within teams.
Hit “Play” to gain insights that can transform your leadership approach!
Guest(s): Margaret Andrews, Author, MyLo Center
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
You're listening to the HR Mixtape. Your podcast with
the perfect mix of practical advice, thought-provoking interviews, and
stories that just hit different so that work doesn't have to feel, well,
Joining me today is Margaret Andrews, author of Manage Yourself
to Lead Others, Why Great Leadership Begins with Self-Understanding. She
(00:25):
has created and teaches leadership and executive programs at Harvard
University and is the founder of the MyLo Center, a
private leadership development firm. Her clients include Amazon, Citi,
Continental, Walmart, Wayfair, and the United Nations. Margaret,
thank you so much for taking some time out of your day to
(00:49):
I'd love if you could share with our audience a little bit about your
journey and the book that you wrote to kind of tee up
So my background is, I like to
say that I have one foot in academia and one foot in the business world.
So I started my career as a CPA in San Francisco. I've
been a marketing executive and a strategy consultant before
(01:12):
finding what I think is my true home in higher education. So
I teach a class called Managing Yourself and Leading Others, and
it's been going on at Harvard for close to 20 years
And yeah, and I know it kind of shocks me
that I can say that. And so we, you
(01:33):
know, it's a regular class, 15, 16 weeks with papers and
lots of readings and things like that. And so we also
created a two-day executive program out of it, and it's been very,
very popular. And so this book, is based
on that executive program and the class. And the idea
behind it is that you have to manage yourself before
(01:55):
you can effectively lead others. And so that's it
in a nutshell. And there's lots of different parts to it as well, which I'm sure we'll get
Well, it's so true. You know, my husband is actually going through an
executive fire officer program put on by the National Fire Academy.
And they have, you know, four basically sections that they go
through before they have to do a large capstone project. And the very first
(02:18):
two week intensive is all about knowing themselves. So
it's true across industries, across roles. It's
kind of the center of leadership. So, you know, when you think
about defining leadership in the context of
today's complexities with, you know, our fast changing organizations,
our hybrid environments, all the things that we're handling from,
(02:42):
you know, changes in administration and things like that and
how we have to pivot so quickly. What does that definition look like
So I still think that the definition is the same. In
my mind, leadership is about I
don't want to say it is about moving individuals
(03:03):
and groups of individuals toward a better future. Right. And
this can be, you know, in a family, in an
organization, in a society. Right. So there's lots of
operative words there. You know, what does better mean, et cetera.
But I think a lot of it has to do with influence. You know, you can
tell people what to do for a while. But
(03:24):
ultimately, they have to believe in it. So, you know, it's the
communication, it's painting the picture of, you know, what does it look like and
what does it mean and what does it mean for each one of us as individuals. And
I think what really makes things a little bit
different now is technology. You know, that technology comes
in and changes what is possible. And
(03:46):
so it's always very upsetting when there's a new technology because,
you know, whether it was the automobile or the internet or social media
or AI or any, you know, of these things, that all of a sudden
things are possible that weren't possible before. And, and, you
know, what, oh my goodness, what does this mean for, for business?
What does it mean for humanity and all of these kinds of things? And, What
(04:07):
I tend to think of is that it's a technology and technology is
all about how do you use it. Almost any technology can
be used for good or for ill. So it's not the technology, it's
You know, I've shared this story before on the podcast, you know, going
back to my days of college when, you know,
cell phones were just becoming more prominent and you had,
(04:29):
you know, your your different search engines that started to
come alive. You know, for me, it was Ask Jeeves. And I know that's, you
know, yes, I remember that a while ago. But, you know, I remember my
professors at the time, there was these two kind of
camps. There was the one camp who was like, don't depend
on this technology, you know, make sure you still know how to
(04:50):
use the Dewey Decimal System and the libraries and the card catalogs, all
that kind of stuff. And then there was another group of professors who were
very forward thinking and really encouraged us to
embrace the technology and how to utilize it. And it's just funny
seeing how so much has changed and the different directions that
people take. So there's definitely an initial fear. I think
(05:10):
that's pretty normal, but you're right. It's about how we
use these tools. to evolve and change in our environments. You
know, and I think about that behavior that those different
professors took in their approaches and how
many different leadership behaviors there are out there. There's
a million books on leadership, right? And we know that there's
(05:32):
definitely different models, but I think You know, I'd love
to hear your perspective with all the work that you've done. You know,
what are those leadership behaviors that really make the biggest difference
Yeah, absolutely. So I'll go back to what your husband is
studying, right, is that it goes back to us, that we
(05:53):
have to understand ourselves. And this is in, I'm
going to say multi layers, that it's about, you
know, who are you? And what made
you and who made you who you are, you know, who
has influenced you in your life. This is obviously parents and
caregivers and family. But it's also how you were
(06:14):
educated, what companies you've worked in, what
you studied. It was those conversations you had with
your dorm mates. It is that movie you watch
that you couldn't get out of your head. It's that book you read, right? It's all
of these things that shape us, you know, our
different way of thinking. And I'm sure we can all remember times when somebody
(06:35):
said something you think, I never thought of that. And
so you have this shift in perspective all of a sudden. So
who and whose thinking has influenced us? What are
our values? And I think this one comes up a lot. And
I think values is something that we don't really talk
about much and truthfully we don't really think about it much and it's
(06:58):
too bad. because they show
up in our decision making, what we value. And if we don't know
what they are, we may decide something differently and come to regret it
later. So, yeah, I think it goes back to really understanding
yourself. How do you define success? You know, do you understand the
emotions that you have and also how you show up with other people
(07:19):
when you're having those emotions? And, you know, these kinds
of things, what kind of feedback have you got? So, you know, I do a lot of exercises
in this and it really kind of gets at it from different facets. So
it's understanding yourself. It's also saying, OK, this is who I
am as a leader now. What kind of leader do I want to
become? And therefore, what do I need to do to
(07:40):
get there? So I think that that's a big part of it. But
it goes back to understanding yourself and then you manage yourself towards
that new level of you. But I tend to believe that
if we don't understand ourselves, we can't understand other
people. because when we begin to understand ourselves, we recognize
how we're similar and different from other people. And
(08:02):
so then that gives us, like, when we think
about other people, we think, well, oh, right, if I'm so different or
similar, whatever it is, right, they are too. And it's
really treating people as individuals as
opposed to a member of their group. You know, whether it's Gen
Z or, you know, people in the accounting department or
(08:24):
right. Everybody is so different. And I think we all know
this on one level, but we don't always behave that
way. Right. We want to be treated as an individual and
not a member of some group. So therefore, why would
anybody else want that? But it does come into play
(08:45):
You listed so many great questions. I will not be
able to recap all of them, but hopefully someone was feverishly writing
down all those different details that you captured as you think
about who you are as an individual. What are maybe one
or two questions we typically won't ask
ourselves that could uncover a lot? I love that you mentioned values
(09:06):
and we've talked about that before, but what are some other nuggets that
you're like, hey, you know what? If you could dig in here, you'd really uncover some
Sure. So, you know, obviously the one about understanding who
has influenced you. And these are people that have helped you and
these are people that have hurt you. We are influenced by all of
these people. And by the way, sometimes somebody can be on both
(09:28):
sides of the legend. They may have helped you and fed
you information about yourself that maybe wasn't true. I hear this all
the time about somebody saying, oh my gosh, my third grade teacher said
blank, right? Either you're good at this or you're not good at this. And it took
me 40 years to get over that or realize
it wasn't true. So, you know, when you start looking at that, you realize, ah,
(09:49):
is that still true or was it ever true? But I want
to go back to values for a moment because I think you're spot on that is
so important. And I think that because we don't always
know what they are, we're not asked that very much. We don't
ask ourselves that. So I will give
people two ways to think about values, right? To kind of
(10:10):
get at those core values. You know, one is
if we looked at your calendar, what would we infer
about your values? Because if you think about one
of your most precious assets is your time. And
so where are you spending it? And you know, I know lots of people say, well,
I have to work. Well, yeah, okay, that's fine. But what do you do
(10:31):
when you don't have to work? So how are you using that time? And
an example I'll give you is that, you know, if you were to ask my husband and
I, we would both say that we value health and fitness. But
if you look at his calendar, it would be obvious because
no matter what is going on in his life, he will work out six
days a week no matter what's going on, right? He'll wake up earlier, he'll stay up later,
(10:52):
etc. Me, I value my work a lot and
I do like to work a lot. And so you would see that my
work sometimes crowds out my workouts. So that's not saying it's a
right or wrong. It doesn't mean that I don't value this or he
didn't value work, right? It just means that we have a
different priority there. But the other way to get at
values is to think about what makes
(11:15):
you angry when you hear about it, witness it,
read about it, whatever it is. Because very oftentimes what
makes you angry is something is that a value
has been stepped on. And so if you think
about are there consistent themes in that, sometimes
I don't point to it, The other way I'll say, and it's actually a different question, but
(11:36):
it also points to values is how do you define success? And
this is in your personal life and your professional life. And, you
know, so if people very oftentimes say, Oh, I want to get to
this level in the organization, I want to start a business. And I
say, okay, that's great. Why? Right. Why do
you want to do that? And they look at me like, well, what do you mean why? And
I said, well, what's driving that? Usually it's a value. I
(12:00):
want recognition. Right. I want people to see that
I'm a success. Or if, you know, I want to retire with
X dollars in the bank, I always ask, well, why that amount? What
does that mean to you? Right. So there's lots of different ways to get into those values.
I love that example of thinking about what makes you angry.
You know, you said that and I was thinking of, you know, and
(12:21):
I've done values exercises being in HR for 27 years, so there's
lots of models. But I love that that was so practical because I
was thinking about, you know, when you're in the grocery store and there's a
person who is in the middle of the aisle and they're like blocking the aisle.
I have a visceral reaction to that. And it's
because I value considering others and
(12:42):
that, like making that connection. It's very simple. So I love that
you shared that because sometimes it's hard to know
where to start when you're trying to go down this values road, especially if
you don't have access to some of the assessments and tools and people
that, you know, those that have been in HR for a long time have access to.
You know, as you think about this role of self-awareness that
(13:03):
leaders really need to grasp, how does that help
them leading more effectively when they're under
Yeah. Because when you understand yourself,
Right. And values, of course, being part of it. We have to
make decisions when under a lot of uncertainty, a lot of
pressure. Sometimes the stakes are very high. So, you
(13:25):
know, one of the things I talk about in making decisions is,
you know, first of all, what's your goal? Right. And therefore, what
are you trading off? Right. You can't have everything. So what's your pecking order
in these things? But the other is to think about, you know, whose values,
what values are at stake here? And so I
just think that understanding those values helps you stay rooted
(13:49):
in making decisions. And you know the winds are buffeting us
all the time. So if you understand your
values, you have those roots, right? And
you're not buffeted as much. If you don't understand them, and I'm
sure we've all seen this, people make decisions that they come
to regret later. They hadn't thought it through. They,
(14:09):
you know, made a quick snap decision. And, you know, guess what? Even
if you understand your values, you might do that too, right? We are
all human. We all slip. So I think
sometimes you just have to give yourself some grace, apologize if
you messed up, and take the lesson and try
(14:29):
Well, and there's so much power in that integrity and
ownership of your mistakes. You know, we all
make them. It's just like you said, it's just human nature. Some
are bigger than others. Some have more consequences than
others. That's just kind of the reality of the world we live in. But having
that, you know, that that wherewithal to
(14:50):
say, Hey, I'm going to learn from this experience. And go back
to what you value, you know, how you want to, how you want to engage with
that experience. You know, I found that leaders that
are able to be proactive and
thoughtful and strategic end up doing better and
have more space for things like innovation on their team, more
(15:11):
space for failure, less stressed out
employees. How do we help leaders move from
that reactive state to a
more proactive state with the caveat that
they have all these things that are being bombarded at them? I
think especially about that middle manager layer where They're
(15:32):
managing, you know, creating great employee experiences, right?
And all the questions they get from their employees. But
they're also dealing with all of the expectations and business impact
and outcome that, you know, the executive team wants. So they're
in a really interesting position. Yeah. Interesting is
Yes. on that one. Absolutely. You
(15:55):
know, I think it is hard. I'm a big fan of
questions, you know, asking ourselves questions, asking our team
questions, asking our boss questions, you know, and one
of my favorite questions is, you
know, if we're making a decision for whatever it
is and the bigger the decision the more important this question is. But
(16:16):
right before we say okay we are choosing this one,
my favorite question to ask is okay if we do this what
could possibly go wrong? And the reason why I
like that is because there is somebody in the room that doesn't love this decision
and they are holding back because they're afraid you're not going to like
it. What about this? When you ask that
(16:38):
you just gave permission to everyone in the room to
shoot at that decision. whether it's yours or
somebody else's. And so you want them to
do it. That's when you want them to tell you what could go wrong. Because
the worst thing, I think, is when, you know, we all say, Oh, yeah, yeah, we're
gonna make this decision. Something goes wrong. And somebody says, Oh, I knew that would happen.
And you did? Why didn't you say something?
(17:01):
Right? We could have saved a lot of, you know, time, money, effort, whatever
it is. So But I think it takes somebody who is
self-secure and secure in themselves
to ask that question because you are inviting criticism. You
are inviting people to tell you why it won't work. That's
(17:21):
one of my favorites. But the other is, you know, asking the person,
you know, maybe that's saying, you know, we need to do this. Then,
you know, to say, OK, you know, think about what's our goal here?
What are our priorities? What are we trading off? Who's going to be involved? Right.
Because it's not just the decision. I mean, the decision is one part
of it. But how are you going to implement it? Right. We oftentimes think that that's separate.
(17:46):
You know, such amazing insight as we think about, you
know, how we make decisions and how we get to be great leaders. You
know, you've gotten the wonderful experience of being in
the corporate world and in higher education. And I'm curious, you
know, how can leaders learn more from higher education
and research as they apply that to, you know,
(18:07):
the business context that we live in and function in?
Yeah, there's, there's tons of research, you know, coming out, whether, you
know, whether it's in finance or economics or organizational behavior
or psychology or sociology, et cetera. I mean, you know, and
of course technology. So it depends on what you're interested in.
You know, lots of people want to read, you know, the financial press because
(18:30):
they want to figure out, you know, what's the newest thing in financial engineering
and goodness knows there's a lot of research that goes on at universities
in that. But also, you know, psychology and sociology, because, you
know, so many companies say, hey, our people are our biggest assets and
really they are. And so it behooves us to
get to know about those people. So,
(18:51):
you know, how do people behave? But the other thing is, I always say
is, is that, you know, they're a collection of individuals as opposed
to, you know, a group of
some age group or something like that. And, I will
say that I think the biggest lesson, most effective lesson
I ever learned about leadership was from having kids. And
(19:11):
I have three, and before I
had kids, I had spent very little time around kids. I
never changed a diaper. So when I was, you
know, coming home with my son, my first son, I remember
thinking if they knew how little I know about this,
they would never let me leave with him, right? That would be child endangerment. But
(19:32):
they didn't know and they let me go home. And so I
had to learn everything. I had to learn how to change a diaper and all
of those things. But more importantly, I had to learn about him. Right.
He had his own moods and ways of doing things. And really,
even as a young child, his own sense of humor
and things like that. And so when my second son came along, I
(19:52):
thought, all right, now I know how to do this. And I was shocked
at how different my second son was just as an infant. Right. And
I thought, oh, wow, this is surprising. OK. So I had to learn about
him. And then, you know, I had my daughter and thought, all
right, got this now. But no, I don't. And
so I had to learn all about her. And that was when it really hit me
(20:15):
was thinking that, you know, if my own three children
who share the same genetic material and are raised
in the same household, if they're not really similar
in how they think and behave, why would I ever expect this
random collection of strangers in my office to be the
same? And I thought, oh, you know, I think that's a big, that's
(20:36):
a big thing. And that really is behind
why I think we have to treat everybody as an individual as opposed
What a great example. And I'm sure so many people listening can,
can resonate with that. My three boys are wildly different as
well. And so I felt that as you were kind of going through that experience,
(20:57):
as you look ahead for, you know, core competencies
for leadership, what do you think are going to remain like the non-negotiables no
Mm-hmm. I think I'm gonna say there's there's three and
they're in different proportions And I think that they are actually they've
always been important. You know one is You
(21:19):
know, can you learn quickly? You know, it's some level of intelligence
of being able to pick things up But you know part of that is also unlearning
it's you know changing we used to do it this way and this made perfect sense
and now it doesn't right so that's this learning type of things
and Another is you have to be competent in
whatever you do, right? Whether it's data science or
(21:41):
surgery or, you know, firefighting or any of these
kinds of things, you have to know what you're talking about and be able
to do it. But the third is interpersonal skills. And
those are actually, you know, there's been a lot of research that, you know, in
terms of leadership and people that you would follow, it's those
interpersonal skills that are way more important than
(22:01):
the other two. And I'm not saying that intelligence and
learning and hard skills are not important, but what makes
the difference between a good leader and a great leader often
come down to those interpersonal skills. And I think that
Well, I couldn't agree more. This has been such a fascinating conversation.
(22:21):
And the fact that you get to talk about this, you
know, every semester with students and you're teaching the
next generation these concepts, I have a lot of appreciation for
that. So thanks for taking a few minutes to sit down and chat with
I hope you enjoyed today's episode. You can find show notes
(22:41):
and links at thehrmixtape.com. Come back
You're listening to the HR Mixtape. Your podcast with
the perfect mix of practical advice, thought-provoking interviews, and
stories that just hit different so that work doesn't have to feel, well,
Joining me today is Margaret Andrews, author of Manage Yourself
to Lead Others, Why Great Leadership Begins with Self-Understanding. She
(00:25):
has created and teaches leadership and executive programs at Harvard
University and is the founder of the MyLo Center, a
private leadership development firm. Her clients include Amazon, Citi,
Continental, Walmart, Wayfair, and the United Nations. Margaret,
thank you so much for taking some time out of your day to
(00:49):
I'd love if you could share with our audience a little bit about your
journey and the book that you wrote to kind of tee up
So my background is, I like to
say that I have one foot in academia and one foot in the business world.
So I started my career as a CPA in San Francisco. I've
been a marketing executive and a strategy consultant before
(01:12):
finding what I think is my true home in higher education. So
I teach a class called Managing Yourself and Leading Others, and
it's been going on at Harvard for close to 20 years
And yeah, and I know it kind of shocks me
that I can say that. And so we, you
(01:33):
know, it's a regular class, 15, 16 weeks with papers and
lots of readings and things like that. And so we also
created a two-day executive program out of it, and it's been very,
very popular. And so this book, is based
on that executive program and the class. And the idea
behind it is that you have to manage yourself before
(01:55):
you can effectively lead others. And so that's it
in a nutshell. And there's lots of different parts to it as well, which I'm sure we'll get
Well, it's so true. You know, my husband is actually going through an
executive fire officer program put on by the National Fire Academy.
And they have, you know, four basically sections that they go
through before they have to do a large capstone project. And the very first
(02:18):
two week intensive is all about knowing themselves. So
it's true across industries, across roles. It's
kind of the center of leadership. So, you know, when you think
about defining leadership in the context of
today's complexities with, you know, our fast changing organizations,
our hybrid environments, all the things that we're handling from,
(02:42):
you know, changes in administration and things like that and
how we have to pivot so quickly. What does that definition look like
So I still think that the definition is the same. In
my mind, leadership is about I
don't want to say it is about moving individuals
(03:03):
and groups of individuals toward a better future. Right. And
this can be, you know, in a family, in an
organization, in a society. Right. So there's lots of
operative words there. You know, what does better mean, et cetera.
But I think a lot of it has to do with influence. You know, you can
tell people what to do for a while. But
(03:24):
ultimately, they have to believe in it. So, you know, it's the
communication, it's painting the picture of, you know, what does it look like and
what does it mean and what does it mean for each one of us as individuals. And
I think what really makes things a little bit
different now is technology. You know, that technology comes
in and changes what is possible. And
(03:46):
so it's always very upsetting when there's a new technology because,
you know, whether it was the automobile or the internet or social media
or AI or any, you know, of these things, that all of a sudden
things are possible that weren't possible before. And, and, you
know, what, oh my goodness, what does this mean for, for business?
What does it mean for humanity and all of these kinds of things? And, What
(04:07):
I tend to think of is that it's a technology and technology is
all about how do you use it. Almost any technology can
be used for good or for ill. So it's not the technology, it's
You know, I've shared this story before on the podcast, you know, going
back to my days of college when, you know,
cell phones were just becoming more prominent and you had,
(04:29):
you know, your your different search engines that started to
come alive. You know, for me, it was Ask Jeeves. And I know that's, you
know, yes, I remember that a while ago. But, you know, I remember my
professors at the time, there was these two kind of
camps. There was the one camp who was like, don't depend
on this technology, you know, make sure you still know how to
(04:50):
use the Dewey Decimal System and the libraries and the card catalogs, all
that kind of stuff. And then there was another group of professors who were
very forward thinking and really encouraged us to
embrace the technology and how to utilize it. And it's just funny
seeing how so much has changed and the different directions that
people take. So there's definitely an initial fear. I think
(05:10):
that's pretty normal, but you're right. It's about how we
use these tools. to evolve and change in our environments. You
know, and I think about that behavior that those different
professors took in their approaches and how
many different leadership behaviors there are out there. There's
a million books on leadership, right? And we know that there's
(05:32):
definitely different models, but I think You know, I'd love
to hear your perspective with all the work that you've done. You know,
what are those leadership behaviors that really make the biggest difference
Yeah, absolutely. So I'll go back to what your husband is
studying, right, is that it goes back to us, that we
(05:53):
have to understand ourselves. And this is in, I'm
going to say multi layers, that it's about, you
know, who are you? And what made
you and who made you who you are, you know, who
has influenced you in your life. This is obviously parents and
caregivers and family. But it's also how you were
(06:14):
educated, what companies you've worked in, what
you studied. It was those conversations you had with
your dorm mates. It is that movie you watch
that you couldn't get out of your head. It's that book you read, right? It's all
of these things that shape us, you know, our
different way of thinking. And I'm sure we can all remember times when somebody
(06:35):
said something you think, I never thought of that. And
so you have this shift in perspective all of a sudden. So
who and whose thinking has influenced us? What are
our values? And I think this one comes up a lot. And
I think values is something that we don't really talk
about much and truthfully we don't really think about it much and it's
(06:58):
too bad. because they show
up in our decision making, what we value. And if we don't know
what they are, we may decide something differently and come to regret it
later. So, yeah, I think it goes back to really understanding
yourself. How do you define success? You know, do you understand the
emotions that you have and also how you show up with other people
(07:19):
when you're having those emotions? And, you know, these kinds
of things, what kind of feedback have you got? So, you know, I do a lot of exercises
in this and it really kind of gets at it from different facets. So
it's understanding yourself. It's also saying, OK, this is who I
am as a leader now. What kind of leader do I want to
become? And therefore, what do I need to do to
(07:40):
get there? So I think that that's a big part of it. But
it goes back to understanding yourself and then you manage yourself towards
that new level of you. But I tend to believe that
if we don't understand ourselves, we can't understand other
people. because when we begin to understand ourselves, we recognize
how we're similar and different from other people. And
(08:02):
so then that gives us, like, when we think
about other people, we think, well, oh, right, if I'm so different or
similar, whatever it is, right, they are too. And it's
really treating people as individuals as
opposed to a member of their group. You know, whether it's Gen
Z or, you know, people in the accounting department or
(08:24):
right. Everybody is so different. And I think we all know
this on one level, but we don't always behave that
way. Right. We want to be treated as an individual and
not a member of some group. So therefore, why would
anybody else want that? But it does come into play
(08:45):
You listed so many great questions. I will not be
able to recap all of them, but hopefully someone was feverishly writing
down all those different details that you captured as you think
about who you are as an individual. What are maybe one
or two questions we typically won't ask
ourselves that could uncover a lot? I love that you mentioned values
(09:06):
and we've talked about that before, but what are some other nuggets that
you're like, hey, you know what? If you could dig in here, you'd really uncover some
Sure. So, you know, obviously the one about understanding who
has influenced you. And these are people that have helped you and
these are people that have hurt you. We are influenced by all of
these people. And by the way, sometimes somebody can be on both
(09:28):
sides of the legend. They may have helped you and fed
you information about yourself that maybe wasn't true. I hear this all
the time about somebody saying, oh my gosh, my third grade teacher said
blank, right? Either you're good at this or you're not good at this. And it took
me 40 years to get over that or realize
it wasn't true. So, you know, when you start looking at that, you realize, ah,
(09:49):
is that still true or was it ever true? But I want
to go back to values for a moment because I think you're spot on that is
so important. And I think that because we don't always
know what they are, we're not asked that very much. We don't
ask ourselves that. So I will give
people two ways to think about values, right? To kind of
(10:10):
get at those core values. You know, one is
if we looked at your calendar, what would we infer
about your values? Because if you think about one
of your most precious assets is your time. And
so where are you spending it? And you know, I know lots of people say, well,
I have to work. Well, yeah, okay, that's fine. But what do you do
(10:31):
when you don't have to work? So how are you using that time? And
an example I'll give you is that, you know, if you were to ask my husband and
I, we would both say that we value health and fitness. But
if you look at his calendar, it would be obvious because
no matter what is going on in his life, he will work out six
days a week no matter what's going on, right? He'll wake up earlier, he'll stay up later,
(10:52):
etc. Me, I value my work a lot and
I do like to work a lot. And so you would see that my
work sometimes crowds out my workouts. So that's not saying it's a
right or wrong. It doesn't mean that I don't value this or he
didn't value work, right? It just means that we have a
different priority there. But the other way to get at
values is to think about what makes
(11:15):
you angry when you hear about it, witness it,
read about it, whatever it is. Because very oftentimes what
makes you angry is something is that a value
has been stepped on. And so if you think
about are there consistent themes in that, sometimes
I don't point to it, The other way I'll say, and it's actually a different question, but
(11:36):
it also points to values is how do you define success? And
this is in your personal life and your professional life. And, you
know, so if people very oftentimes say, Oh, I want to get to
this level in the organization, I want to start a business. And I
say, okay, that's great. Why? Right. Why do
you want to do that? And they look at me like, well, what do you mean why? And
I said, well, what's driving that? Usually it's a value. I
(12:00):
want recognition. Right. I want people to see that
I'm a success. Or if, you know, I want to retire with
X dollars in the bank, I always ask, well, why that amount? What
does that mean to you? Right. So there's lots of different ways to get into those values.
I love that example of thinking about what makes you angry.
You know, you said that and I was thinking of, you know, and
(12:21):
I've done values exercises being in HR for 27 years, so there's
lots of models. But I love that that was so practical because I
was thinking about, you know, when you're in the grocery store and there's a
person who is in the middle of the aisle and they're like blocking the aisle.
I have a visceral reaction to that. And it's
because I value considering others and
(12:42):
that, like making that connection. It's very simple. So I love that
you shared that because sometimes it's hard to know
where to start when you're trying to go down this values road, especially if
you don't have access to some of the assessments and tools and people
that, you know, those that have been in HR for a long time have access to.
You know, as you think about this role of self-awareness that
(13:03):
leaders really need to grasp, how does that help
them leading more effectively when they're under
Yeah. Because when you understand yourself,
Right. And values, of course, being part of it. We have to
make decisions when under a lot of uncertainty, a lot of
pressure. Sometimes the stakes are very high. So, you
(13:25):
know, one of the things I talk about in making decisions is,
you know, first of all, what's your goal? Right. And therefore, what
are you trading off? Right. You can't have everything. So what's your pecking order
in these things? But the other is to think about, you know, whose values,
what values are at stake here? And so I
just think that understanding those values helps you stay rooted
(13:49):
in making decisions. And you know the winds are buffeting us
all the time. So if you understand your
values, you have those roots, right? And
you're not buffeted as much. If you don't understand them, and I'm
sure we've all seen this, people make decisions that they come
to regret later. They hadn't thought it through. They,
(14:09):
you know, made a quick snap decision. And, you know, guess what? Even
if you understand your values, you might do that too, right? We are
all human. We all slip. So I think
sometimes you just have to give yourself some grace, apologize if
you messed up, and take the lesson and try
(14:29):
Well, and there's so much power in that integrity and
ownership of your mistakes. You know, we all
make them. It's just like you said, it's just human nature. Some
are bigger than others. Some have more consequences than
others. That's just kind of the reality of the world we live in. But having
that, you know, that that wherewithal to
(14:50):
say, Hey, I'm going to learn from this experience. And go back
to what you value, you know, how you want to, how you want to engage with
that experience. You know, I found that leaders that
are able to be proactive and
thoughtful and strategic end up doing better and
have more space for things like innovation on their team, more
(15:11):
space for failure, less stressed out
employees. How do we help leaders move from
that reactive state to a
more proactive state with the caveat that
they have all these things that are being bombarded at them? I
think especially about that middle manager layer where They're
(15:32):
managing, you know, creating great employee experiences, right?
And all the questions they get from their employees. But
they're also dealing with all of the expectations and business impact
and outcome that, you know, the executive team wants. So they're
in a really interesting position. Yeah. Interesting is
Yes. on that one. Absolutely. You
(15:55):
know, I think it is hard. I'm a big fan of
questions, you know, asking ourselves questions, asking our team
questions, asking our boss questions, you know, and one
of my favorite questions is, you
know, if we're making a decision for whatever it
is and the bigger the decision the more important this question is. But
(16:16):
right before we say okay we are choosing this one,
my favorite question to ask is okay if we do this what
could possibly go wrong? And the reason why I
like that is because there is somebody in the room that doesn't love this decision
and they are holding back because they're afraid you're not going to like
it. What about this? When you ask that
(16:38):
you just gave permission to everyone in the room to
shoot at that decision. whether it's yours or
somebody else's. And so you want them to
do it. That's when you want them to tell you what could go wrong. Because
the worst thing, I think, is when, you know, we all say, Oh, yeah, yeah, we're
gonna make this decision. Something goes wrong. And somebody says, Oh, I knew that would happen.
And you did? Why didn't you say something?
(17:01):
Right? We could have saved a lot of, you know, time, money, effort, whatever
it is. So But I think it takes somebody who is
self-secure and secure in themselves
to ask that question because you are inviting criticism. You
are inviting people to tell you why it won't work. That's
(17:21):
one of my favorites. But the other is, you know, asking the person,
you know, maybe that's saying, you know, we need to do this. Then,
you know, to say, OK, you know, think about what's our goal here?
What are our priorities? What are we trading off? Who's going to be involved? Right.
Because it's not just the decision. I mean, the decision is one part
of it. But how are you going to implement it? Right. We oftentimes think that that's separate.
(17:46):
You know, such amazing insight as we think about, you
know, how we make decisions and how we get to be great leaders. You
know, you've gotten the wonderful experience of being in
the corporate world and in higher education. And I'm curious, you
know, how can leaders learn more from higher education
and research as they apply that to, you know,
(18:07):
the business context that we live in and function in?
Yeah, there's, there's tons of research, you know, coming out, whether, you
know, whether it's in finance or economics or organizational behavior
or psychology or sociology, et cetera. I mean, you know, and
of course technology. So it depends on what you're interested in.
You know, lots of people want to read, you know, the financial press because
(18:30):
they want to figure out, you know, what's the newest thing in financial engineering
and goodness knows there's a lot of research that goes on at universities
in that. But also, you know, psychology and sociology, because, you
know, so many companies say, hey, our people are our biggest assets and
really they are. And so it behooves us to
get to know about those people. So,
(18:51):
you know, how do people behave? But the other thing is, I always say
is, is that, you know, they're a collection of individuals as opposed
to, you know, a group of
some age group or something like that. And, I will
say that I think the biggest lesson, most effective lesson
I ever learned about leadership was from having kids. And
(19:11):
I have three, and before I
had kids, I had spent very little time around kids. I
never changed a diaper. So when I was, you
know, coming home with my son, my first son, I remember
thinking if they knew how little I know about this,
they would never let me leave with him, right? That would be child endangerment. But
(19:32):
they didn't know and they let me go home. And so I
had to learn everything. I had to learn how to change a diaper and all
of those things. But more importantly, I had to learn about him. Right.
He had his own moods and ways of doing things. And really,
even as a young child, his own sense of humor
and things like that. And so when my second son came along, I
(19:52):
thought, all right, now I know how to do this. And I was shocked
at how different my second son was just as an infant. Right. And
I thought, oh, wow, this is surprising. OK. So I had to learn about
him. And then, you know, I had my daughter and thought, all
right, got this now. But no, I don't. And
so I had to learn all about her. And that was when it really hit me
(20:15):
was thinking that, you know, if my own three children
who share the same genetic material and are raised
in the same household, if they're not really similar
in how they think and behave, why would I ever expect this
random collection of strangers in my office to be the
same? And I thought, oh, you know, I think that's a big, that's
(20:36):
a big thing. And that really is behind
why I think we have to treat everybody as an individual as opposed
What a great example. And I'm sure so many people listening can,
can resonate with that. My three boys are wildly different as
well. And so I felt that as you were kind of going through that experience,
(20:57):
as you look ahead for, you know, core competencies
for leadership, what do you think are going to remain like the non-negotiables no
Mm-hmm. I think I'm gonna say there's there's three and
they're in different proportions And I think that they are actually they've
always been important. You know one is You
(21:19):
know, can you learn quickly? You know, it's some level of intelligence
of being able to pick things up But you know part of that is also unlearning
it's you know changing we used to do it this way and this made perfect sense
and now it doesn't right so that's this learning type of things
and Another is you have to be competent in
whatever you do, right? Whether it's data science or
(21:41):
surgery or, you know, firefighting or any of these
kinds of things, you have to know what you're talking about and be able
to do it. But the third is interpersonal skills. And
those are actually, you know, there's been a lot of research that, you know, in
terms of leadership and people that you would follow, it's those
interpersonal skills that are way more important than
(22:01):
the other two. And I'm not saying that intelligence and
learning and hard skills are not important, but what makes
the difference between a good leader and a great leader often
come down to those interpersonal skills. And I think that
Well, I couldn't agree more. This has been such a fascinating conversation.
(22:21):
And the fact that you get to talk about this, you
know, every semester with students and you're teaching the
next generation these concepts, I have a lot of appreciation for
that. So thanks for taking a few minutes to sit down and chat with
I hope you enjoyed today's episode. You can find show notes
(22:41):
and links at thehrmixtape.com. Come back
Popular Podcasts
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.