July 8, 2025 • 22 mins
In this episode of the HR Mixtape, host Shari Simpson sits down with Michelle Sims, CEO of Yupro Placement, to explore the transformative power of skills-based hiring. As organizations increasingly prioritize inclusive leadership and equitable hiring practices, this conversation sheds light on the urgent need to move beyond traditional degree requirements. Michelle shares her journey and insights on how skills-first approaches can enhance employee experience and drive economic mobility for overlooked talent.
Listener Takeaways:
-
Learn how to identify the top skills needed for success in various roles.
-
Discover why reframing interview questions can reduce bias and improve candidate assessment.
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Explore strategies for building partnerships with workforce development organizations to tap into nontraditional talent pools.
Hit “Play” to gain valuable insights on redefining hiring practices for a more inclusive future!
Guest(s): Michelle Sims, CEO, Yupro Placement
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
You're listening to the HR Mixtape. Your podcast with
the perfect mix of practical advice, thought-provoking interviews, and
stories that just hit different so that work doesn't have to feel, well,
Joining me today is Michelle Sims, CEO of Yupro Placement.
Michelle leads a mission-driven team dedicated to advancing skills,
(00:25):
first hiring, and economic mobility for overlooked talent. Her
work is redefining how organizations build high-performing, inclusive
Thank you. I'm glad we finally got it scheduled. We're both busy
It's been crazy and the weather's been insane. So I'm so
(00:49):
glad our schedule worked out. I have been looking
at the HR landscape, you know, over the last year and there's
so much better and content and
discussions around skills-based hiring, skills-first
approaches to things like job descriptions and job architecture. And
(01:10):
you are such a champion for skills-first hiring. I'd
love if maybe we could start by you sharing a little bit about, you
know, how did you find that? What was your defining moment
in that journey to kind of come to that view
I love the question, and I think I
(01:30):
have the answer now, but I didn't have the answer along the journey, right?
It's easier to look back and say, oh, okay, so this is
the red thread that got me here, and I think I've become
so passionate. One of my very first jobs. I
sold after-school programs
in marginalized school districts for school-aged kids so
(01:54):
that they would have a safe place to go to after school, to do
their homework, to have a snack. And I
was so appreciative of these programs because I was a kid in my 80s and a latchkey
kid, right? We all went home and seemed safe. But
the difference was, how it transformed families
that created opportunities for parents to be at work to
(02:18):
ensure that they could provide for their family. So I think that
was really pivotal in starting my career and
that supercharged me to teach community
college. And so I taught in the community college system
for 17 years and then similar with
young adults and adults of all ages, They're
(02:40):
working multiple jobs, they're trying to better themselves, get
out of dead end on hourly jobs, and
really mentoring and motivating adults to create
opportunities for themselves and saw what
it took to create opportunity for
folks that were willing to do the work. And
(03:04):
then I landed in staffing and the HR path,
which I'm sure you're not surprised after hearing those two jobs, and
skills-based hiring falls in line with creating
equitable opportunity based on what folks can do and their potential
and what they're willing to do versus where they've gone to
school or what zip code they grew up in or their social network. Because
(03:29):
professional and social networks are also a privilege. And
so, yeah, I think, you know, long story to a
short answer, my red thread has
just been supporting talent to create opportunity
You know, it's interesting that you, you started with that you can
(03:50):
define it now, but you couldn't define it then. And as you, as you were talking, I
was thinking about, you know, my own journey in HR.
My undergrad is not in HR. I did not go to school for it. I may or
may not have shared my journey on the podcast. So I know there's been a couple of episodes. You
know, I advocated for myself to step into an
HR role and I did not have the background, degree or
(04:11):
skills. And it's really interesting because if that person, and that
one person, that one CHRO had not given me
the opportunity to step into something based on
my skills, I would never be in this path now. So
it's so important to switch our mindset around
You know, what does talent need to move on to
(04:33):
a certain role or to level up in a certain role? You know, why
do you think so many companies are still defaulting to those degree
requirements then when we know intuitively that
demonstrated skills actually have a bigger impact
than necessarily what your degree says you're competent in?
I think, and to your point, yes, I don't know that all
(04:55):
of your HR listeners, probably half of them can say they
sell into it, right? There isn't necessarily a degree in
some of the things that we do. And so, but what's interesting is
the Reagan administration actually started a
very prominent marketing campaign that college
was the path to prosperity in this country. And
(05:20):
college is a business, many for profit,
right? And so as every other advertisement,
you get sucked into what this narrative
is. But that narrative also rules
out millions of Americans that don't have a college degree.
(05:42):
And then the other thing is, when that marketing propaganda started,
we also used a degree to filter
out very quickly, the resume parsing,
right? So before tech, we did it manual, we
put them in stacks, right? If you've been around long enough, and then tech
comes along, and you're building filters in
(06:04):
technology. And the first filter is, do you
have a college degree or not? And even entry-level
jobs 20 years ago required, and
still many do, a college degree as that first filter. And
so some companies now, a lot of companies, the technology
hasn't quite caught up with the workforce demands and today's
(06:27):
really demand for more inclusive hiring practices. Like
that tech is a bit behind, but the mindset is
also behind. And the hiring manager's
like, I need my position filled right now.
And how do we do that quickly? And we just default to those traditional practices
of finding talent in the same places. And if you've done the job and
(06:50):
we're stealing from our competition, but that's running out.
And skills-based hiring allows us to look beyond that. Or
the companies that don't, I mean, I truly believe they will be left
I think so much about the military when
it comes to skills-based hiring because veterans come
(07:11):
out and there's all these resources for
practitioners and talent acquisition leaders to
help understand how a role in the military translates
into roles in corporate America or other types of
roles. But that is very specific to
that population of veterans. And a lot
(07:35):
of those tools are being created by veteran organizations,
right? It's not being created by companies. So
I think it can be really hard for those hiring teams to
understand that transferable skill model. How
have you seen or how have you coached or maybe you know of ways that
(07:55):
these teams are getting better at identifying those so that
Yeah, I think this is where the lag happens, because to your
point, corporations don't necessarily know
how to work with workforce organizations and nonprofit
organizations that are really taking on
(08:16):
developing nontraditional talent that don't have degrees, right?
where I have seen it most successful is when an organization
gets to a point where they're a bit desperate, they do have high
turnover, they have demand that they can't fill, they
need to grow their business, and they're struggling. And
they're like, all right, they start asking the right questions. How
(08:40):
do we find talent? Why aren't we finding talent? How
do we create new pathways? And the
organizations that reach out to workforce development organizations
that say, okay, we want to build a model very similar
to a college recruiting program, right? Most
organizations have a college recruiting program. You build the
(09:03):
same type of structure around workforce development
organizations and nonprofits. because there are
literally hundreds of nonprofits across the country that
are training talent in bootcamps and
certifications and apprenticeship programs and
organizations that are tapping into those organizations and creating recruiting
(09:25):
programs similar to just how they would with a college recruiting
team, then skills-based hiring becomes the
and multiplier versus the or multiplier. Right.
And that's what we spend our time doing is helping organizations build
that muscle in how to tap into those
non-traditional candidate pools. And there's so
(09:48):
many great veteran nonprofit organizations
that are supporting talent and they get, you know, free certifications through
like CompTIA and Grow with Google and IBM
Skills Build is a big one. I mean, all of these are great programs and
you can get certification and college-level training
to prepare you for the workforce. Truly tapping
(10:11):
into the and and the versus the or I think is
For teams or for really the
HR departments of one, I talk about them a lot. I've sat in
that space before. It can be super overwhelming to wear all these
hats. So I want to get kind of tactical for a second. If
you want to start to think about switching your interview
(10:33):
design so that they are better assessing for
skills over credentials, what are some tactical ways or
some first steps that, you know, the practitioners can do to start
It's a good question. I think a couple of things do need to
come before the interview process, right? Because
(10:54):
you really need to pick the right jobs that you're
going to really tackle skills first
methods for before you go through interviewing. So,
picking some of those entry-level, non-specialized roles
that really were skills-first hiring thrives, and
(11:15):
then working with hiring managers and folks in the process
and the stakeholders on what are the top five skills that are required to
be successful in their role, because you need the top five
skills to build questions. So, the
questions also need to be reframed. So, we
have to reframe to reassess, right?
(11:37):
So, we're asking questions like, tell
me about a time that you were given a
task, you've never done it before, how did you research and overcome
that and get it done on time versus, oh, where did you
go to school and what classes did you take? Right? So reframing to
reassess. And so that interview process that
(11:58):
we're creating questions for, if we are not doing
the steps before that to truly understand the skills for
success, we can't create the questions. And then the
other piece is creating an interview process that
removes bias. And let's face it, we may have
bias, we just have to work really hard to remove as much as possible. But
(12:20):
having a diverse panel, using a rubric and scoring where
everybody knows what they're asking, everybody is aligned on
the same skills that they're trying to assess. Because
when, you know, three people in the interview process, this person's looking for
this skill, this person's looking for this skill, based on what
they're needing to get results for, it's, you
(12:42):
know, then that's where the bias comes in. So it's really
building a bias-free process. based
on the top skills for that job to be successful. And
that takes intention. Like, and that's why, you know, it's,
you get the myths and the concern that it's expensive and takes too
much time, but you start small. Like we always say, pilot
(13:06):
before scale, right? Because you also need
case studies and support and measures to sell your
story to scale before you can really, you know, get legs
That's such a good example to think about when you want to roll
this out too. Instead of starting necessarily with
your C-suite or the highest level in your organization, find that
(13:29):
one manager who's always been, you know, kind of the HR champion,
or maybe you have a really good relationship with them. Pitch it to them first,
you know. That's going to give you that ability to test out some
of this stuff and really develop that internal case
study to say, Hey, you know, we made this change with Jim's team
for his frontline manufacturing roles, and we've been able to
(13:51):
increase retention, decrease performance problems,
right? You can come with this really rich and deep
data. to make your case. And I think that will help you
have those conversations with your executive team about
a broader switch, because you'll have that ROI
of inclusive skills first hiring in your back pocket to say like, hey,
(14:13):
here's how I've done it and here's how we're going to do it. As
you think about some of the barriers that candidates
face, the obvious ones I think are our resumes
and ATS systems and some of that technology filtering that
you talked about, how do candidates get
through that stuff, you know, or is the ownership on
(14:37):
HR to stop asking those questions or stop putting those filters in?
I kind of feel like it's, like you said, it's going to be a little bit of
a time constraint to get through some of this stuff, but
we got to start somewhere. I guess, what are your recommendations for both the candidate and
Well, I think one of the barriers that,
(14:58):
I mean, I do think it's more on the responsibility of
the organization and the HR professional to remove the
bias and change the mindset because I think
the number one thing we have to let go is that most
people aren't professional resume writers. there is
no list on a skill set that says, must
(15:19):
be able to write a great resume. And so as recruiters
and hiring managers, we're looking at a resume, we're making assumptions
based on job titles, skill, like we're making
assumption on skill because of the college degree, which there
is no data that says somebody in an entry level
non-specialized role is stronger for a role, whether
(15:41):
you have a degree or not. There is no data. It's
an assumption and a bias. And if this formatting
stinks on a resume, or if you have a misspelled word, I
mean, I've been guilty of it, but I'm the CEO and I'm
a terrible speller. And I am confident I had a misspelled word
in my LinkedIn post yesterday. But you're not saying that I
(16:02):
can't do my job, but yet we're saying that when we read a
resume. And so that's on the onus of
the person reading the resume to look beyond the paper, look beyond the resume,
and not create assumptions. Also,
we have a lot of job gaps these days. There are more job gaps
today when you look at a resume than I've experienced in
(16:24):
20 years. And I've had to get over that bias because
we have an aging population, we have folks taking care of their
parents and their grandparents, and so they're taking pauses in
their jobs. So your resume states you've
got a break in service, so we're making an assumption when we read that, but
the resume doesn't tell the story. So we have
(16:46):
to talk to people about their story. And we
haven't talked about AI yet, but AI
can't tell that story either. So we're all
scared that the recruiter may go away because of AI. But
that human component of understanding where the skills are,
understanding people's stories, and being able to assess
the skills, I don't think we're there yet. And
(17:09):
I don't know that AI will ever be able to do that. And,
you know, the other piece is COVID screwed up a lot
of people's job history, right? So we're post-COVID. And
then transportation. We also assume that somebody can't do
a job because they're late for an interview, but somebody that relies on
public transportation actually could have amazing skills. They just
(17:29):
rely on public transportation because they need a job and they
could be a diamond in the rough, but they rely on public transportation. So
like we talk about barriers, but if we remove
some of these biases and systemic barriers to the process, then
we're opening our aperture up to this untapped
(17:50):
You brought up a couple of points that I want to disruminate on
because I think they're so good and I really want to
make sure the audience hears it. You brought up we're not professional
resume writers. No one taught
me how to do that. I never took a class in college. I never took a
class in high school. I mean, hopefully that's changing a little
(18:11):
bit now, but you're right. That's not a skill that
people are necessarily taught. So you go on the internet, you try to figure out Maybe
you're doing that at the local library, right? Maybe you don't have a home computer
to do it on or you're trying to do it on your phone or, you know, all
those things. And you're absolutely right. I am also a
terrible speller. I rely on Grammarly like it's nobody's business.
(18:33):
And every once in a while, my husband will ping me and he'll be like, hey, you should check your LinkedIn post.
You totally butchered that word. I'm like, dang it. So
I feel that, I think that's so important, especially if
the role does not require you to do emails
and typing and whatever. Do we actually care that you spelt
something wrong or right if you can do the job? That's
(18:53):
a mindset shift we definitely need to get through. The
other thing I wanted to make sure I kind of dug into was that transportation
piece. You know, I've been in HR over 20 years and There
was a time when I was working in one organization where
we were talking about attracting talent. We had one
warehouse where we just couldn't seem to get the
(19:16):
talent that we needed. It was entry-level roles. And
what we ended up doing is a little bit of research on our end
to understand bus routes. because there was a bus stop
within, you know, a block or so of this building. And
so we got real strategic about where we were going to target advertising
(19:37):
and working with local communities so that we could
tap into all of these workers who rely on public transportation.
But it required us to have that that mindset change to
understand that, like, if we actually do want to attract this population, we
have to change our approach. to attracting the
talent and really making ourselves available. So I love those two points. I
(20:00):
think it's something we don't think enough or talk enough about. And
it seems so simple, right? It seems like, like almost
a no duh in so many ways, but also we're so busy
on so many other things we don't, don't kind of drill into that.
Well, but we've also followed our very traditional
filters. We're just programmed to do it.
(20:21):
And so if we're not intentional about questioning
that and changing filters and changing the process and
almost making it to where it's a checklist, like make sure you don't
do this. You don't give a checklist to make sure you do things
in your to-do list. Like here we re-engineer and
we do checklists for this is what you shouldn't do.
(20:42):
Make sure you're not doing this. That's where the mindset
So good, Michelle. I love this discussion. One last question
before we jump off. And I'd love to get, you know,
kind of your two cents on this. What's one outdated
mindset or policy in hiring right now that you would love if
(21:06):
I would say, number one, is that we've
got to dispel that
a four-year degree is a universal proxy for
competency. It's not. It is not
the proxy for privilege. It is not the proxy for
(21:26):
opportunity. It is not the proxy for prosperity. There will
always be purpose in a four-year degree, but to
single that out as an assumption that
it will get you where you need to go is
Such a good way to end our conversation, Michelle. Thank you so much for
(21:49):
sitting down and having this conversation. I feel like we could have done an
episode that was two hours long on this topic. So really appreciate you.
Oh, thank you for having me. And it's obviously you can
I hope you enjoyed
today's episode. You can find show notes and links at
theHRMixtape.com Come back often and please
You're listening to the HR Mixtape. Your podcast with
the perfect mix of practical advice, thought-provoking interviews, and
stories that just hit different so that work doesn't have to feel, well,
Joining me today is Michelle Sims, CEO of Yupro Placement.
Michelle leads a mission-driven team dedicated to advancing skills,
(00:25):
first hiring, and economic mobility for overlooked talent. Her
work is redefining how organizations build high-performing, inclusive
Thank you. I'm glad we finally got it scheduled. We're both busy
It's been crazy and the weather's been insane. So I'm so
(00:49):
glad our schedule worked out. I have been looking
at the HR landscape, you know, over the last year and there's
so much better and content and
discussions around skills-based hiring, skills-first
approaches to things like job descriptions and job architecture. And
(01:10):
you are such a champion for skills-first hiring. I'd
love if maybe we could start by you sharing a little bit about, you
know, how did you find that? What was your defining moment
in that journey to kind of come to that view
I love the question, and I think I
(01:30):
have the answer now, but I didn't have the answer along the journey, right?
It's easier to look back and say, oh, okay, so this is
the red thread that got me here, and I think I've become
so passionate. One of my very first jobs. I
sold after-school programs
in marginalized school districts for school-aged kids so
(01:54):
that they would have a safe place to go to after school, to do
their homework, to have a snack. And I
was so appreciative of these programs because I was a kid in my 80s and a latchkey
kid, right? We all went home and seemed safe. But
the difference was, how it transformed families
that created opportunities for parents to be at work to
(02:18):
ensure that they could provide for their family. So I think that
was really pivotal in starting my career and
that supercharged me to teach community
college. And so I taught in the community college system
for 17 years and then similar with
young adults and adults of all ages, They're
(02:40):
working multiple jobs, they're trying to better themselves, get
out of dead end on hourly jobs, and
really mentoring and motivating adults to create
opportunities for themselves and saw what
it took to create opportunity for
folks that were willing to do the work. And
(03:04):
then I landed in staffing and the HR path,
which I'm sure you're not surprised after hearing those two jobs, and
skills-based hiring falls in line with creating
equitable opportunity based on what folks can do and their potential
and what they're willing to do versus where they've gone to
school or what zip code they grew up in or their social network. Because
(03:29):
professional and social networks are also a privilege. And
so, yeah, I think, you know, long story to a
short answer, my red thread has
just been supporting talent to create opportunity
You know, it's interesting that you, you started with that you can
(03:50):
define it now, but you couldn't define it then. And as you, as you were talking, I
was thinking about, you know, my own journey in HR.
My undergrad is not in HR. I did not go to school for it. I may or
may not have shared my journey on the podcast. So I know there's been a couple of episodes. You
know, I advocated for myself to step into an
HR role and I did not have the background, degree or
(04:11):
skills. And it's really interesting because if that person, and that
one person, that one CHRO had not given me
the opportunity to step into something based on
my skills, I would never be in this path now. So
it's so important to switch our mindset around
You know, what does talent need to move on to
(04:33):
a certain role or to level up in a certain role? You know, why
do you think so many companies are still defaulting to those degree
requirements then when we know intuitively that
demonstrated skills actually have a bigger impact
than necessarily what your degree says you're competent in?
I think, and to your point, yes, I don't know that all
(04:55):
of your HR listeners, probably half of them can say they
sell into it, right? There isn't necessarily a degree in
some of the things that we do. And so, but what's interesting is
the Reagan administration actually started a
very prominent marketing campaign that college
was the path to prosperity in this country. And
(05:20):
college is a business, many for profit,
right? And so as every other advertisement,
you get sucked into what this narrative
is. But that narrative also rules
out millions of Americans that don't have a college degree.
(05:42):
And then the other thing is, when that marketing propaganda started,
we also used a degree to filter
out very quickly, the resume parsing,
right? So before tech, we did it manual, we
put them in stacks, right? If you've been around long enough, and then tech
comes along, and you're building filters in
(06:04):
technology. And the first filter is, do you
have a college degree or not? And even entry-level
jobs 20 years ago required, and
still many do, a college degree as that first filter. And
so some companies now, a lot of companies, the technology
hasn't quite caught up with the workforce demands and today's
(06:27):
really demand for more inclusive hiring practices. Like
that tech is a bit behind, but the mindset is
also behind. And the hiring manager's
like, I need my position filled right now.
And how do we do that quickly? And we just default to those traditional practices
of finding talent in the same places. And if you've done the job and
(06:50):
we're stealing from our competition, but that's running out.
And skills-based hiring allows us to look beyond that. Or
the companies that don't, I mean, I truly believe they will be left
I think so much about the military when
it comes to skills-based hiring because veterans come
(07:11):
out and there's all these resources for
practitioners and talent acquisition leaders to
help understand how a role in the military translates
into roles in corporate America or other types of
roles. But that is very specific to
that population of veterans. And a lot
(07:35):
of those tools are being created by veteran organizations,
right? It's not being created by companies. So
I think it can be really hard for those hiring teams to
understand that transferable skill model. How
have you seen or how have you coached or maybe you know of ways that
(07:55):
these teams are getting better at identifying those so that
Yeah, I think this is where the lag happens, because to your
point, corporations don't necessarily know
how to work with workforce organizations and nonprofit
organizations that are really taking on
(08:16):
developing nontraditional talent that don't have degrees, right?
where I have seen it most successful is when an organization
gets to a point where they're a bit desperate, they do have high
turnover, they have demand that they can't fill, they
need to grow their business, and they're struggling. And
they're like, all right, they start asking the right questions. How
(08:40):
do we find talent? Why aren't we finding talent? How
do we create new pathways? And the
organizations that reach out to workforce development organizations
that say, okay, we want to build a model very similar
to a college recruiting program, right? Most
organizations have a college recruiting program. You build the
(09:03):
same type of structure around workforce development
organizations and nonprofits. because there are
literally hundreds of nonprofits across the country that
are training talent in bootcamps and
certifications and apprenticeship programs and
organizations that are tapping into those organizations and creating recruiting
(09:25):
programs similar to just how they would with a college recruiting
team, then skills-based hiring becomes the
and multiplier versus the or multiplier. Right.
And that's what we spend our time doing is helping organizations build
that muscle in how to tap into those
non-traditional candidate pools. And there's so
(09:48):
many great veteran nonprofit organizations
that are supporting talent and they get, you know, free certifications through
like CompTIA and Grow with Google and IBM
Skills Build is a big one. I mean, all of these are great programs and
you can get certification and college-level training
to prepare you for the workforce. Truly tapping
(10:11):
into the and and the versus the or I think is
For teams or for really the
HR departments of one, I talk about them a lot. I've sat in
that space before. It can be super overwhelming to wear all these
hats. So I want to get kind of tactical for a second. If
you want to start to think about switching your interview
(10:33):
design so that they are better assessing for
skills over credentials, what are some tactical ways or
some first steps that, you know, the practitioners can do to start
It's a good question. I think a couple of things do need to
come before the interview process, right? Because
(10:54):
you really need to pick the right jobs that you're
going to really tackle skills first
methods for before you go through interviewing. So,
picking some of those entry-level, non-specialized roles
that really were skills-first hiring thrives, and
(11:15):
then working with hiring managers and folks in the process
and the stakeholders on what are the top five skills that are required to
be successful in their role, because you need the top five
skills to build questions. So, the
questions also need to be reframed. So, we
have to reframe to reassess, right?
(11:37):
So, we're asking questions like, tell
me about a time that you were given a
task, you've never done it before, how did you research and overcome
that and get it done on time versus, oh, where did you
go to school and what classes did you take? Right? So reframing to
reassess. And so that interview process that
(11:58):
we're creating questions for, if we are not doing
the steps before that to truly understand the skills for
success, we can't create the questions. And then the
other piece is creating an interview process that
removes bias. And let's face it, we may have
bias, we just have to work really hard to remove as much as possible. But
(12:20):
having a diverse panel, using a rubric and scoring where
everybody knows what they're asking, everybody is aligned on
the same skills that they're trying to assess. Because
when, you know, three people in the interview process, this person's looking for
this skill, this person's looking for this skill, based on what
they're needing to get results for, it's, you
(12:42):
know, then that's where the bias comes in. So it's really
building a bias-free process. based
on the top skills for that job to be successful. And
that takes intention. Like, and that's why, you know, it's,
you get the myths and the concern that it's expensive and takes too
much time, but you start small. Like we always say, pilot
(13:06):
before scale, right? Because you also need
case studies and support and measures to sell your
story to scale before you can really, you know, get legs
That's such a good example to think about when you want to roll
this out too. Instead of starting necessarily with
your C-suite or the highest level in your organization, find that
(13:29):
one manager who's always been, you know, kind of the HR champion,
or maybe you have a really good relationship with them. Pitch it to them first,
you know. That's going to give you that ability to test out some
of this stuff and really develop that internal case
study to say, Hey, you know, we made this change with Jim's team
for his frontline manufacturing roles, and we've been able to
(13:51):
increase retention, decrease performance problems,
right? You can come with this really rich and deep
data. to make your case. And I think that will help you
have those conversations with your executive team about
a broader switch, because you'll have that ROI
of inclusive skills first hiring in your back pocket to say like, hey,
(14:13):
here's how I've done it and here's how we're going to do it. As
you think about some of the barriers that candidates
face, the obvious ones I think are our resumes
and ATS systems and some of that technology filtering that
you talked about, how do candidates get
through that stuff, you know, or is the ownership on
(14:37):
HR to stop asking those questions or stop putting those filters in?
I kind of feel like it's, like you said, it's going to be a little bit of
a time constraint to get through some of this stuff, but
we got to start somewhere. I guess, what are your recommendations for both the candidate and
Well, I think one of the barriers that,
(14:58):
I mean, I do think it's more on the responsibility of
the organization and the HR professional to remove the
bias and change the mindset because I think
the number one thing we have to let go is that most
people aren't professional resume writers. there is
no list on a skill set that says, must
(15:19):
be able to write a great resume. And so as recruiters
and hiring managers, we're looking at a resume, we're making assumptions
based on job titles, skill, like we're making
assumption on skill because of the college degree, which there
is no data that says somebody in an entry level
non-specialized role is stronger for a role, whether
(15:41):
you have a degree or not. There is no data. It's
an assumption and a bias. And if this formatting
stinks on a resume, or if you have a misspelled word, I
mean, I've been guilty of it, but I'm the CEO and I'm
a terrible speller. And I am confident I had a misspelled word
in my LinkedIn post yesterday. But you're not saying that I
(16:02):
can't do my job, but yet we're saying that when we read a
resume. And so that's on the onus of
the person reading the resume to look beyond the paper, look beyond the resume,
and not create assumptions. Also,
we have a lot of job gaps these days. There are more job gaps
today when you look at a resume than I've experienced in
(16:24):
20 years. And I've had to get over that bias because
we have an aging population, we have folks taking care of their
parents and their grandparents, and so they're taking pauses in
their jobs. So your resume states you've
got a break in service, so we're making an assumption when we read that, but
the resume doesn't tell the story. So we have
(16:46):
to talk to people about their story. And we
haven't talked about AI yet, but AI
can't tell that story either. So we're all
scared that the recruiter may go away because of AI. But
that human component of understanding where the skills are,
understanding people's stories, and being able to assess
the skills, I don't think we're there yet. And
(17:09):
I don't know that AI will ever be able to do that. And,
you know, the other piece is COVID screwed up a lot
of people's job history, right? So we're post-COVID. And
then transportation. We also assume that somebody can't do
a job because they're late for an interview, but somebody that relies on
public transportation actually could have amazing skills. They just
(17:29):
rely on public transportation because they need a job and they
could be a diamond in the rough, but they rely on public transportation. So
like we talk about barriers, but if we remove
some of these biases and systemic barriers to the process, then
we're opening our aperture up to this untapped
(17:50):
You brought up a couple of points that I want to disruminate on
because I think they're so good and I really want to
make sure the audience hears it. You brought up we're not professional
resume writers. No one taught
me how to do that. I never took a class in college. I never took a
class in high school. I mean, hopefully that's changing a little
(18:11):
bit now, but you're right. That's not a skill that
people are necessarily taught. So you go on the internet, you try to figure out Maybe
you're doing that at the local library, right? Maybe you don't have a home computer
to do it on or you're trying to do it on your phone or, you know, all
those things. And you're absolutely right. I am also a
terrible speller. I rely on Grammarly like it's nobody's business.
(18:33):
And every once in a while, my husband will ping me and he'll be like, hey, you should check your LinkedIn post.
You totally butchered that word. I'm like, dang it. So
I feel that, I think that's so important, especially if
the role does not require you to do emails
and typing and whatever. Do we actually care that you spelt
something wrong or right if you can do the job? That's
(18:53):
a mindset shift we definitely need to get through. The
other thing I wanted to make sure I kind of dug into was that transportation
piece. You know, I've been in HR over 20 years and There
was a time when I was working in one organization where
we were talking about attracting talent. We had one
warehouse where we just couldn't seem to get the
(19:16):
talent that we needed. It was entry-level roles. And
what we ended up doing is a little bit of research on our end
to understand bus routes. because there was a bus stop
within, you know, a block or so of this building. And
so we got real strategic about where we were going to target advertising
(19:37):
and working with local communities so that we could
tap into all of these workers who rely on public transportation.
But it required us to have that that mindset change to
understand that, like, if we actually do want to attract this population, we
have to change our approach. to attracting the
talent and really making ourselves available. So I love those two points. I
(20:00):
think it's something we don't think enough or talk enough about. And
it seems so simple, right? It seems like, like almost
a no duh in so many ways, but also we're so busy
on so many other things we don't, don't kind of drill into that.
Well, but we've also followed our very traditional
filters. We're just programmed to do it.
(20:21):
And so if we're not intentional about questioning
that and changing filters and changing the process and
almost making it to where it's a checklist, like make sure you don't
do this. You don't give a checklist to make sure you do things
in your to-do list. Like here we re-engineer and
we do checklists for this is what you shouldn't do.
(20:42):
Make sure you're not doing this. That's where the mindset
So good, Michelle. I love this discussion. One last question
before we jump off. And I'd love to get, you know,
kind of your two cents on this. What's one outdated
mindset or policy in hiring right now that you would love if
(21:06):
I would say, number one, is that we've
got to dispel that
a four-year degree is a universal proxy for
competency. It's not. It is not
the proxy for privilege. It is not the proxy for
(21:26):
opportunity. It is not the proxy for prosperity. There will
always be purpose in a four-year degree, but to
single that out as an assumption that
it will get you where you need to go is
Such a good way to end our conversation, Michelle. Thank you so much for
(21:49):
sitting down and having this conversation. I feel like we could have done an
episode that was two hours long on this topic. So really appreciate you.
Oh, thank you for having me. And it's obviously you can
I hope you enjoyed
today's episode. You can find show notes and links at
theHRMixtape.com Come back often and please
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