November 11, 2025 • 23 mins
In this episode of the HR Mixtape podcast, host Shari Simpson welcomes Leah Marone, a psychotherapist and corporate mental wellness consultant, to discuss the critical issue of burnout in HR professionals. This conversation is timely as organizations increasingly recognize the importance of employee experience and mental wellness, especially in high-stress environments. Leah shares insights from her new book, "Serial Fixer," emphasizing the need for HR professionals to break free from the habit of solving others' problems and to establish healthier boundaries.
Listener Takeaways:
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Learn how to identify your role in conversations and avoid the urge to fix others' problems.
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Discover why setting boundaries is essential for maintaining mental wellness in HR.
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Explore strategies for fostering a culture of self-awareness and resilience within your team.
Hit “Play” to gain valuable insights that can transform your approach to HR and enhance your well-being!
Guest(s): Leah Marone, Psychotherapist and Corporate Mental Wellness Consultant Order Leah's book here: Serial Fixer: Break Free from the Habit of Solving Other People's Problems
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
You're listening to the HR Mixtape. Your podcast with
the perfect mix of practical advice, thought-provoking interviews, and
stories that just hit different so that work doesn't have to feel, well,
Joining me today is Leah Marone, psychotherapist, speaker, and
corporate mental wellness consultant. Leah draws on 20 years of
(00:25):
clinical experience, thousands of therapy sessions, and work as
a Yale clinical instructor to help organizations reduce burnout, strengthen
Leah, thank you so much for jumping on the podcast with me today. Oh, my
pleasure. Thanks for having me. So I'm very, very fascinated about
what we're going to talk about today. But I want to start with
(00:49):
the role of H.R. in general and the space that H.R. professionals
live in. You know, I have been lucky enough in my career to
do everything from H.R. departments of one to big organizations, to
recruitment, training developments, payroll benefits, kind of the whole thing. And
in every one of those roles, There was a certain
sense of ownership I had in delivering to my employees
(01:11):
and to my business leaders. That puts HR in a
really unique position to feel burnout.
I think a little bit more, slightly more than a
lot of other people in the organization. I'm curious with the
And that was a great I love how you kind of pinpointed that there's this
(01:32):
pool, you know, of like, we're not just taking care of this group.
We're also taking care of this group as we take care of ourselves. And
then, God forbid, something unpredictable happens or something goes
off the rails. And then there's all these other layers. So you're
absolutely right. And the interesting thing about HR, and I'm going to make a
generalization, because what I found is that people that gravitate
(01:54):
towards that profession, and even just helping professions
in general, have high EQ, have
this drive to serve, to help, and
tend to have higher levels of compassion and empathy, which
are wonderful things, but sometimes this
strength, this gift can kind of lead us to
(02:16):
take false ownership of things that aren't necessarily ours
or kind of insert or take over structure, solve
and fix when it's not necessarily ours. And this is
not only happening in their professional roles, but personal. And you can
see where this recipe, if we're not aware of it, And
we're not coming in as more of that supporter and
(02:39):
still helping but not scooping in and being like, well, I need to come
in and alleviate this person or fix this for this
person. Because if I don't, then I'm going to actually question what
kind of professional I am or what kind of partner I am or teammate I
am. And so there's a lot of internal conflict that
happens. And I do think that that right there is
(02:59):
a very hard balance and flow to
find. And a lot of people aren't even aware of that and kind of the internal conflicts
And the reason I started with that question is because I want to dive in
to the book that you have that actually launches today. It's called Serial
Fixer. And let's dive into a little bit about what
(03:25):
Yeah. Well, even the subtitle break free from the habit of solving
other people's problems. I think that says a lot right there. And,
you know, when we find ourselves in this kind of cycle of serial fixing,
it does come, you know, Shari, from a good place. But
it is kind of this drive and this urgency that generally,
you know, it's ego driven, it's from our internal critics, our
(03:47):
internal pleasers, that are kind of pushing us to
be in these roles where we are immediately assuming, fixing,
solving, and we're not meeting people and situation necessarily
where it's at. We can see where these create these
micro, I like to refer to them as micro codependencies. in
(04:08):
the workplace, and in our families, and in our friend groups. And
we're kind of the one that we have the privilege of
knowing the information, being the person that people go to. We
like this. This makes us feel productive and connected, which is not a bad thing.
But you can see that when we're not aware, the
whole idea of just consistent self-care goes out the window. Because
(04:31):
we have these internal parts of us that are like, if
you do that, if you're not available, If
you just put yourself first, then you're probably acting out
of selfishness, or you're probably not the best HR
professional that you can be. And so Serial Fixer, it
really talks about just obviously what it is
(04:52):
and these cycles we find ourselves in, but I go into depth about
the psychology behind these parts, these
drivers. I use a lot of internal family systems models. And
it is just about not just fighting burnout with the Band-Aids and
the little things that make us feel good. Those
are wonderful. But I want to help people get to the root and really come
(05:14):
out of that book with a higher level of self-awareness and
self-connection. and not compromise at
all on their compassion and empathy and, you know, drive to
connect and help, but do it in a way where they are consistently
As you were explaining that, I thought of a couple of things that
(05:34):
I've experienced in my personal life and in my, you know, professional career.
And it's funny, I was thinking about, you know, I
have boys, I raised boys, and so I'm the only female
in the house. And the trope about boys can't see things when
it's right in front of them is very true in my experience. Not
all men, obviously, but my children, you
(05:57):
know, have done that. They've opened the fridge or they've been looking for keys or something.
It's such a simple example, but there is this innate feeling in
me that's like, well, I have to go. I have to go find it
like they're never going to be able to find it. I have to go find it. I have to
go solve this problem. And I think about that in my HR
career as well. You know, so many people come into HR, like
(06:18):
you said, because they have this this passion for serving
people and those who are a little bit more tenure in
the year, we're like, oh, that's cute. BBHR thinks that they're going
to, you know, help people because we
get so burned out and we have so many
kind of negative experiences that it does lead us to sitting
(06:40):
in this kind of serial fixer mode how do we start
to one, identify that we're there and
two, get out of it or don't sit in it for an extended
And this is where, I mean, this is where I really try to hone in on kind
of my support don't solve model, right? And the first step and
really is collecting data, right, on yourself. We
(07:03):
don't do this enough. You know, we're not kind of checking in, we're not aware,
but I think just even a simple step that everyone can
do right out of the gate is just start to pay attention, not
every exchange and every interaction, but just start to pay attention
professionally and personally, the role that you tend to place
yourself in conversations and exchanges. If
(07:24):
someone comes to you with some sort of hurdle, problem, distress,
whatever it may be, I mean, is your first instinct to
start to unravel, to start to kind of fix, to soothe?
And again, this comes from a good place, but you can see where
that initial inclination to solve, to
fix, to like, well, I'll just send them an email. Oh, you do have too much on your plate. Let
(07:46):
me go ahead and take this off. Let me do this. Let me do this. And that,
again, wonderful. But you can see where we catalog these
things as human. We're like, oh, she's available for that. He's available
for that. I don't have to do this. There's nothing pressing here. This
is, as humans, how we assess where we can filtrate our energy.
And so I think it's really a matter of, when you
(08:07):
show up to exchanges and conversations, right out
of the gate, we have to get better at validating first.
And what I mean by that is not necessarily agreeing, but
showing that person that we are working
hard to decode the message that they're trying to share with us non-verbally
and verbally, and that we're going to meet them where they're at. So
(08:29):
this, again, some people are like, well, I don't got time for that. But you do,
because what you're doing is you're creating this balanced exchange, and
you're breaking that serial fixing habit of jumping in,
fixing, solving, trying to soothe them so that, number one,
you feel like, OK, that's done. Check that off. They're going to be here tomorrow doing
the same thing. And I think that we feed into
(08:50):
this urgency. We feed into this pool of like, if I'm not
solving this, if I'm not fixing, if I'm not doing this for this person, then
I'm not doing my job. When in reality, we
are neglecting people professionally and personally of
getting their own repetitions in, of getting their own problem solving
and growth in, whether they're your children or they're people that
(09:13):
you're leading. And out of the gate, this does take a little more
time. But it is strategic. It is helping
people develop. It is helping people get their own space
and their own developing their own role and internally gaining
self-trust. And when we jump in and we fix and
we solve and we're like, well, do this or this is what I would do. It's creating
(09:34):
tons of imbalances in all of the relationships that we have in
It makes me think about how bad we are at
setting boundaries. You know, I feel like that's like the number one
thing that that I've had to really work on as an
HR professional. You know, I had a leader once that shared with me
that she doesn't answer text messages for 10 minutes. And
(09:55):
I was like, oh, my gosh, like the idea of like the little red
dot on my phone for 10 minutes. But I started to practice it. And
it and it was amazing the space that it provided for
the people who were texting me to solve their own
problems, because most of the time it wasn't
an emergency. It wasn't even an emergency for them. So
(10:16):
that was a really great tip that I got along my career. The other thing
that I've started to do over the last year is block out
my Fridays. Now, not everybody can do that. I understand that. I
understand that's a luxury that I have, but it has really
helped me take some of that time and focus on my work
and the thinking that I need. Overall, how do we get to a
(10:37):
place where we can set better boundaries for us as HR so
we're not constantly getting inundated with those interruptions? And
we know where we kind of sit in that space where we have to
react to the unexpected. But there is a way to do it where we're
You're absolutely right. And I love that you shared that about just that
pause with text messages, because, you know, we all
(10:59):
grew up in different households. We all grew up with different models. And
some of us grew up with cereal fixers where, you know, we didn't
get a chance, unfortunately, to develop some of those muscles. And so everything
was urgent. And we're constantly assessing who can we go to to
untangle my ball of yarn. And typically it's
people with high levels of compassion and empathy. And so you're right,
(11:20):
that pause that just gives a
chance for them to keep ownership, have a little bit of logic,
maybe seep into that emotional and that urgent, you're still there,
you're still around. But it's hard sometimes for people to assess, and
HR professionals and leaders to assess what is urgent and what's not. But
that practice, is a wonderful way.
(11:42):
Even challenging the open door policy. Oh, I have an open door policy. I'm
available all the time. And it's like, how's that working for you? Or
isn't it? And what are you really trying to do
with that? And I think if you have someone that
you're leading that is constantly coming in to have
you put out fires, the phrase, and if you're multitasking,
(12:03):
if you're doing something and you really need to focus and people are coming
in and interrupting, number one, that's so cognitively taxing. And
that creates this, ugh, just exhaustion. But even
playing with the phrase like, you know, Tyler,
I can see what you have to say is really important and I
want to give you my full attention. Let me finish this and let's find a
(12:25):
time this afternoon or let me come find you and circle back so that I can give you my full
attention because I want to hear what you have to say. you're validating, you're
not feeding in, Tyler's going to go away and probably be more
prepared with questions, what he needs, rather than just
like, this is a mess and kind of throw you this fire. And so
those types of practices and generating that calm
(12:46):
and composure and like, this is yours, I'm here
to help, is wonderful. And so I think
kind of to your point and just even your question, That
mindfulness around how are we operating? What
kind of culture are we standing behind or fueling? And
are we truly empowering people and helping
(13:08):
them kind of, again, gain that confidence as a professional? Or
are we kind of creating these micro-codependencies where people are
just kind of bombarding us and hoping that we, again, untangle their ball
It's so amazing. I love that ball of yarn analogy and
linking it back to, you know, potentially how you were raised. My parents
(13:28):
definitely are fixers. Just listening to you describe it.
And everything was urgent, you know, everything as
small as the dishes have to be done right the second, you know, and
that definitely sets you up for a particular way
of looking at the world. You know, in your book, you write about inner critic.
I'd love for you to tackle that a little bit with us and how
(13:50):
we can tune into that critical voice to actually help us
I mean, I do, I go into external boundaries, but more importantly, in
order to be able to maintain and create external ones, we kind of go into internal first.
And so I really kind of pick apart different parts within
(14:12):
us that tend to be very powerful, like our inner critic, our
inner pleaser, our inner rescuer, right? And
how those parts of us, I mean, it's very similar to the movie Inside Out,
right? those parts. And that's, again, kind of the therapeutic modality
that I use internal family systems a lot to kind of help me with the
book and the framework. But your critic is, you know, a
(14:34):
lot of us have a very fierce inner critic and a lot of
us try very hard to shove that down. to
ignore it, to distract ourselves from it. It's kind of
that critical voice within us that can
be very unpleasant, create angst. Kind
of these anxious thought spirals leave us too much in
(14:54):
the futuristic thinking or past thinking. But really, in reality,
this critic is a protective property. It's like a bodyguard. And
it is there for a good reason. And the thing that we misstep or
mistake is that we try It's very
hard to suppress and get rid of these parts, and we're judgmental. Like,
why am I like this? What is wrong with me? Is everyone else
(15:16):
like this? And yeah, most of us are. And so the
thing, though, that the shift is really understanding
and appreciating and aligning with these
parts of us, because a lot of these parts that
are very protective in nature came to fruition and
were created when we were younger to protect us from not
(15:38):
feeling something that we wanted to feel. And so I
think it really reframes how to understand, how
to work, how to align, how to soothe those
parts of us that are very fear-driven and anxiety-driven.
And that's where we run into those conflicts as parents, professionals, partners
of like, well, if I don't do that, am I Am I
(16:01):
a good leader? Do I care enough? People are probably going to think I'm
not passionate enough, that I'm kind of out, that I'm lazy, that
I'm this. And so our critic is pushing us. You
don't want to be categorized as anything negative. You don't want people to judge
you because of this. And you can see where that gets in
the way. of boundaries, external ones,
(16:22):
right? Even like setting up things for self-care. Like,
I'm going to start working out. I'm going to leave the office at 5 or I'm going to do
this. I'm going to get up early. And, you know, our critics in our
ear that morning were like, well, if you don't check your email, people are going to actually wonder. They're
going to wonder if you're actually working today or you're just laying on your couch or, you
know, they're really used to you firing back pretty quick. And so what's that
going to say about you? Oh, yeah, I'll just save that work out for later.
(16:45):
It's really not going to make that big of a deal if I wait. So you can see how these parts
sabotage how we set boundaries. And
so I think it's so critical. We're beyond the
like, let's just put a Band-Aid on it. Let's just go take a walk and take
a bubble bath and just have these little mental
health hours. No, no, no. We can do better. And we need to be more
(17:06):
consistent. And we need to go deeper with what's truly going on
so that we can align and soothe and not just search for
How do we go about discovering what that is for
each of us? So, you know, I've done some work to try to understand low
states for myself during the day. So I know that if I have projects,
(17:27):
you know, heavy thinking, brain intensive work, I'm gonna be
most productive between the hours of 10 a.m. and 12 p.m., right?
It's like a two hour window. I know that's my sweet spot. And
I leave all my kind of creative, you know, fun thinking
meetings for later in the day. But that took me a really, really
long time to figure out. Many, many, many years.
(17:49):
How do we jumpstart that? How do we get into really investigating
ourselves for some of those things that we know either our
critic is holding us back from or, you know, what
we think we're supposed to show up as so that we can have a
better flow and continue to show up the way we want to? Because ultimately,
That's really what we're trying to do is still show up the way we want to show up,
(18:10):
but in a healthy way with healthy boundaries and not
putting ourselves in this, you know, serial fixer mode. Right,
And I think, you know, with how
much we use data, which rightfully so, to kind of keep track
of everything, especially in our professional role. Like, we need to
gather more data on ourselves. And like you said, it took you a while to
(18:33):
really understand, like, this is what I'm firing on all cylinders in this
way, and I need to capitalize on that. It took you many
times probably to pause and reflect and access some
of the data that you were collecting, checking in. And so I
think that's where we were misstepping. And
the cool thing is, is like self check-ins and gathering data,
(18:54):
it doesn't have to be this huge elaborate thing. Like capitalizing just
on our transitions during the day, when we're walking from one room to
the next, when we're driving to work, when we're doing soccer pickups or
whatever we're doing, we have dozens of transitions throughout the
day. And just using some of those as
moments where you can be like, where am I at? How
(19:15):
am I doing? What's resonating with me? What's not? Where have my thoughts been?
You have to refrain from judgment, which is tough. That's the critic. But
you also have to think about, I'm just gathering
data. I don't have to do anything. I don't have to necessarily go
overanalyze and fix and overthink. I'm gathering data
that will help me. figure out what works for me and what
(19:38):
doesn't. So when you have a week that is incredibly taxing,
which we all do, and you're being pulled in all directions,
you may know, like, in order to prevent an emotional hangover, I
need to carve out some time to do X, Y,
or Z. And my critic's going to be yelling at me, like, do you really need that? You
really probably should clean out the garage. I mean, it's been two years now. Come on. but
(20:00):
that's where you have to soothe and kind of anticipate like, I'm gonna meet
both these parts in the middle. And if I don't do this, I know I'm gonna pay
for it. So it's really having these almost conversations with
yourself as you're collecting data. And that's really how the lasting change
No break, love all of those great examples. And if
you're working fully remote and you're listening, build in those transitions. I
(20:22):
know that's not the point of this. discussion, but it
is very easy to log in and then you're on
24 seven literally because you're, you're remote. And so you don't think
about it, but building those transitions and those stop times for your
day, you don't have to, you don't have to log in
after dinner. Maybe you want to, maybe you've decided that that
(20:44):
flow works for you because I know some people who do that and
it's actually very, very productive for them and they don't They don't,
it doesn't add stress and they still can show up the way they want to. But for
me, I have to build in those transitions. So I, I kind of know if I've been
sitting here for like an hour and a half with no, no breaks, no,
you know, standing up, it's like, I gotta, I gotta get up. I gotta go take
(21:04):
out the dogs or do something for that, for that mental transition break. You
know, as we wrap our conversation up, Leah, What do you
think about for the future in this space? What are you seeing
is kind of the next hurdle that we're going to be talking about when it comes
to HR and and some of our serial fixer mentalities?
Oh, my gosh, we could talk all day about that, right?
(21:27):
I mean, I think the biggest thing is and a lot of you I
know are probably already doing this, but I think
in order, again, if we use that ball of yarn analogy and you're
prone to just catching everybody's ball of yarn and trying to untangle
it, think about keeping that ball of yarn with them and pulling on some threads for
them every now and again, but they still keep it. But I think in just
(21:48):
the profession of HR in general and just even leadership in
general, we have to do a better job of
asking people. Like, how do you know,
or what happens, what alarm bells
do you when you know you're at a high level of stress? Or
you are asking questions that seem invasive, but they're not.
(22:11):
What you're doing is you're actually encouraging this culture of
be aware of yourself. You're in charge of your
mental health. But it's helpful to have these conversations of
like, How are you taking care of yourself? What ways
do you tend to recover? What's helpful for
you in terms of recovery? What boundaries are you working on?
(22:34):
When are you able to access your grit and resilience? What motivates you?
Again, what alarm bells go off to let you know you're reaching a
high level of stress that isn't sustainable. Those
types of questions and check-ins where you're keeping
the ownership with that person is a very proactive,
very wellness-driven culture where
(22:56):
it's like, we're going to talk about this. I'm not having therapy sessions every
time we meet. That's not what we're doing in the professional landscape.
But those questions of even during the interview process,
What do you know about yourself and kind of your rhythms when it comes to
stress? How do you recover? What are some boundaries or
when you think of boundaries, what do you think of? Those are so
(23:22):
We're ready. I love that. Well, Leah, thank you so much for taking some
time out of your day to jump on the podcast and talk to me about
I hope you enjoyed today's episode. You can find show notes
and links at thehrmixtape.com. Come back
You're listening to the HR Mixtape. Your podcast with
the perfect mix of practical advice, thought-provoking interviews, and
stories that just hit different so that work doesn't have to feel, well,
Joining me today is Leah Marone, psychotherapist, speaker, and
corporate mental wellness consultant. Leah draws on 20 years of
(00:25):
clinical experience, thousands of therapy sessions, and work as
a Yale clinical instructor to help organizations reduce burnout, strengthen
Leah, thank you so much for jumping on the podcast with me today. Oh, my
pleasure. Thanks for having me. So I'm very, very fascinated about
what we're going to talk about today. But I want to start with
(00:49):
the role of H.R. in general and the space that H.R. professionals
live in. You know, I have been lucky enough in my career to
do everything from H.R. departments of one to big organizations, to
recruitment, training developments, payroll benefits, kind of the whole thing. And
in every one of those roles, There was a certain
sense of ownership I had in delivering to my employees
(01:11):
and to my business leaders. That puts HR in a
really unique position to feel burnout.
I think a little bit more, slightly more than a
lot of other people in the organization. I'm curious with the
And that was a great I love how you kind of pinpointed that there's this
(01:32):
pool, you know, of like, we're not just taking care of this group.
We're also taking care of this group as we take care of ourselves. And
then, God forbid, something unpredictable happens or something goes
off the rails. And then there's all these other layers. So you're
absolutely right. And the interesting thing about HR, and I'm going to make a
generalization, because what I found is that people that gravitate
(01:54):
towards that profession, and even just helping professions
in general, have high EQ, have
this drive to serve, to help, and
tend to have higher levels of compassion and empathy, which
are wonderful things, but sometimes this
strength, this gift can kind of lead us to
(02:16):
take false ownership of things that aren't necessarily ours
or kind of insert or take over structure, solve
and fix when it's not necessarily ours. And this is
not only happening in their professional roles, but personal. And you can
see where this recipe, if we're not aware of it, And
we're not coming in as more of that supporter and
(02:39):
still helping but not scooping in and being like, well, I need to come
in and alleviate this person or fix this for this
person. Because if I don't, then I'm going to actually question what
kind of professional I am or what kind of partner I am or teammate I
am. And so there's a lot of internal conflict that
happens. And I do think that that right there is
(02:59):
a very hard balance and flow to
find. And a lot of people aren't even aware of that and kind of the internal conflicts
And the reason I started with that question is because I want to dive in
to the book that you have that actually launches today. It's called Serial
Fixer. And let's dive into a little bit about what
(03:25):
Yeah. Well, even the subtitle break free from the habit of solving
other people's problems. I think that says a lot right there. And,
you know, when we find ourselves in this kind of cycle of serial fixing,
it does come, you know, Shari, from a good place. But
it is kind of this drive and this urgency that generally,
you know, it's ego driven, it's from our internal critics, our
(03:47):
internal pleasers, that are kind of pushing us to
be in these roles where we are immediately assuming, fixing,
solving, and we're not meeting people and situation necessarily
where it's at. We can see where these create these
micro, I like to refer to them as micro codependencies. in
(04:08):
the workplace, and in our families, and in our friend groups. And
we're kind of the one that we have the privilege of
knowing the information, being the person that people go to. We
like this. This makes us feel productive and connected, which is not a bad thing.
But you can see that when we're not aware, the
whole idea of just consistent self-care goes out the window. Because
(04:31):
we have these internal parts of us that are like, if
you do that, if you're not available, If
you just put yourself first, then you're probably acting out
of selfishness, or you're probably not the best HR
professional that you can be. And so Serial Fixer, it
really talks about just obviously what it is
(04:52):
and these cycles we find ourselves in, but I go into depth about
the psychology behind these parts, these
drivers. I use a lot of internal family systems models. And
it is just about not just fighting burnout with the Band-Aids and
the little things that make us feel good. Those
are wonderful. But I want to help people get to the root and really come
(05:14):
out of that book with a higher level of self-awareness and
self-connection. and not compromise at
all on their compassion and empathy and, you know, drive to
connect and help, but do it in a way where they are consistently
As you were explaining that, I thought of a couple of things that
(05:34):
I've experienced in my personal life and in my, you know, professional career.
And it's funny, I was thinking about, you know, I
have boys, I raised boys, and so I'm the only female
in the house. And the trope about boys can't see things when
it's right in front of them is very true in my experience. Not
all men, obviously, but my children, you
(05:57):
know, have done that. They've opened the fridge or they've been looking for keys or something.
It's such a simple example, but there is this innate feeling in
me that's like, well, I have to go. I have to go find it
like they're never going to be able to find it. I have to go find it. I have to
go solve this problem. And I think about that in my HR
career as well. You know, so many people come into HR, like
(06:18):
you said, because they have this this passion for serving
people and those who are a little bit more tenure in
the year, we're like, oh, that's cute. BBHR thinks that they're going
to, you know, help people because we
get so burned out and we have so many
kind of negative experiences that it does lead us to sitting
(06:40):
in this kind of serial fixer mode how do we start
to one, identify that we're there and
two, get out of it or don't sit in it for an extended
And this is where, I mean, this is where I really try to hone in on kind
of my support don't solve model, right? And the first step and
really is collecting data, right, on yourself. We
(07:03):
don't do this enough. You know, we're not kind of checking in, we're not aware,
but I think just even a simple step that everyone can
do right out of the gate is just start to pay attention, not
every exchange and every interaction, but just start to pay attention
professionally and personally, the role that you tend to place
yourself in conversations and exchanges. If
(07:24):
someone comes to you with some sort of hurdle, problem, distress,
whatever it may be, I mean, is your first instinct to
start to unravel, to start to kind of fix, to soothe?
And again, this comes from a good place, but you can see where
that initial inclination to solve, to
fix, to like, well, I'll just send them an email. Oh, you do have too much on your plate. Let
(07:46):
me go ahead and take this off. Let me do this. Let me do this. And that,
again, wonderful. But you can see where we catalog these
things as human. We're like, oh, she's available for that. He's available
for that. I don't have to do this. There's nothing pressing here. This
is, as humans, how we assess where we can filtrate our energy.
And so I think it's really a matter of, when you
(08:07):
show up to exchanges and conversations, right out
of the gate, we have to get better at validating first.
And what I mean by that is not necessarily agreeing, but
showing that person that we are working
hard to decode the message that they're trying to share with us non-verbally
and verbally, and that we're going to meet them where they're at. So
(08:29):
this, again, some people are like, well, I don't got time for that. But you do,
because what you're doing is you're creating this balanced exchange, and
you're breaking that serial fixing habit of jumping in,
fixing, solving, trying to soothe them so that, number one,
you feel like, OK, that's done. Check that off. They're going to be here tomorrow doing
the same thing. And I think that we feed into
(08:50):
this urgency. We feed into this pool of like, if I'm not
solving this, if I'm not fixing, if I'm not doing this for this person, then
I'm not doing my job. When in reality, we
are neglecting people professionally and personally of
getting their own repetitions in, of getting their own problem solving
and growth in, whether they're your children or they're people that
(09:13):
you're leading. And out of the gate, this does take a little more
time. But it is strategic. It is helping
people develop. It is helping people get their own space
and their own developing their own role and internally gaining
self-trust. And when we jump in and we fix and
we solve and we're like, well, do this or this is what I would do. It's creating
(09:34):
tons of imbalances in all of the relationships that we have in
It makes me think about how bad we are at
setting boundaries. You know, I feel like that's like the number one
thing that that I've had to really work on as an
HR professional. You know, I had a leader once that shared with me
that she doesn't answer text messages for 10 minutes. And
(09:55):
I was like, oh, my gosh, like the idea of like the little red
dot on my phone for 10 minutes. But I started to practice it. And
it and it was amazing the space that it provided for
the people who were texting me to solve their own
problems, because most of the time it wasn't
an emergency. It wasn't even an emergency for them. So
(10:16):
that was a really great tip that I got along my career. The other thing
that I've started to do over the last year is block out
my Fridays. Now, not everybody can do that. I understand that. I
understand that's a luxury that I have, but it has really
helped me take some of that time and focus on my work
and the thinking that I need. Overall, how do we get to a
(10:37):
place where we can set better boundaries for us as HR so
we're not constantly getting inundated with those interruptions? And
we know where we kind of sit in that space where we have to
react to the unexpected. But there is a way to do it where we're
You're absolutely right. And I love that you shared that about just that
pause with text messages, because, you know, we all
(10:59):
grew up in different households. We all grew up with different models. And
some of us grew up with cereal fixers where, you know, we didn't
get a chance, unfortunately, to develop some of those muscles. And so everything
was urgent. And we're constantly assessing who can we go to to
untangle my ball of yarn. And typically it's
people with high levels of compassion and empathy. And so you're right,
(11:20):
that pause that just gives a
chance for them to keep ownership, have a little bit of logic,
maybe seep into that emotional and that urgent, you're still there,
you're still around. But it's hard sometimes for people to assess, and
HR professionals and leaders to assess what is urgent and what's not. But
that practice, is a wonderful way.
(11:42):
Even challenging the open door policy. Oh, I have an open door policy. I'm
available all the time. And it's like, how's that working for you? Or
isn't it? And what are you really trying to do
with that? And I think if you have someone that
you're leading that is constantly coming in to have
you put out fires, the phrase, and if you're multitasking,
(12:03):
if you're doing something and you really need to focus and people are coming
in and interrupting, number one, that's so cognitively taxing. And
that creates this, ugh, just exhaustion. But even
playing with the phrase like, you know, Tyler,
I can see what you have to say is really important and I
want to give you my full attention. Let me finish this and let's find a
(12:25):
time this afternoon or let me come find you and circle back so that I can give you my full
attention because I want to hear what you have to say. you're validating, you're
not feeding in, Tyler's going to go away and probably be more
prepared with questions, what he needs, rather than just
like, this is a mess and kind of throw you this fire. And so
those types of practices and generating that calm
(12:46):
and composure and like, this is yours, I'm here
to help, is wonderful. And so I think
kind of to your point and just even your question, That
mindfulness around how are we operating? What
kind of culture are we standing behind or fueling? And
are we truly empowering people and helping
(13:08):
them kind of, again, gain that confidence as a professional? Or
are we kind of creating these micro-codependencies where people are
just kind of bombarding us and hoping that we, again, untangle their ball
It's so amazing. I love that ball of yarn analogy and
linking it back to, you know, potentially how you were raised. My parents
(13:28):
definitely are fixers. Just listening to you describe it.
And everything was urgent, you know, everything as
small as the dishes have to be done right the second, you know, and
that definitely sets you up for a particular way
of looking at the world. You know, in your book, you write about inner critic.
I'd love for you to tackle that a little bit with us and how
(13:50):
we can tune into that critical voice to actually help us
I mean, I do, I go into external boundaries, but more importantly, in
order to be able to maintain and create external ones, we kind of go into internal first.
And so I really kind of pick apart different parts within
(14:12):
us that tend to be very powerful, like our inner critic, our
inner pleaser, our inner rescuer, right? And
how those parts of us, I mean, it's very similar to the movie Inside Out,
right? those parts. And that's, again, kind of the therapeutic modality
that I use internal family systems a lot to kind of help me with the
book and the framework. But your critic is, you know, a
(14:34):
lot of us have a very fierce inner critic and a lot of
us try very hard to shove that down. to
ignore it, to distract ourselves from it. It's kind of
that critical voice within us that can
be very unpleasant, create angst. Kind
of these anxious thought spirals leave us too much in
(14:54):
the futuristic thinking or past thinking. But really, in reality,
this critic is a protective property. It's like a bodyguard. And
it is there for a good reason. And the thing that we misstep or
mistake is that we try It's very
hard to suppress and get rid of these parts, and we're judgmental. Like,
why am I like this? What is wrong with me? Is everyone else
(15:16):
like this? And yeah, most of us are. And so the
thing, though, that the shift is really understanding
and appreciating and aligning with these
parts of us, because a lot of these parts that
are very protective in nature came to fruition and
were created when we were younger to protect us from not
(15:38):
feeling something that we wanted to feel. And so I
think it really reframes how to understand, how
to work, how to align, how to soothe those
parts of us that are very fear-driven and anxiety-driven.
And that's where we run into those conflicts as parents, professionals, partners
of like, well, if I don't do that, am I Am I
(16:01):
a good leader? Do I care enough? People are probably going to think I'm
not passionate enough, that I'm kind of out, that I'm lazy, that
I'm this. And so our critic is pushing us. You
don't want to be categorized as anything negative. You don't want people to judge
you because of this. And you can see where that gets in
the way. of boundaries, external ones,
(16:22):
right? Even like setting up things for self-care. Like,
I'm going to start working out. I'm going to leave the office at 5 or I'm going to do
this. I'm going to get up early. And, you know, our critics in our
ear that morning were like, well, if you don't check your email, people are going to actually wonder. They're
going to wonder if you're actually working today or you're just laying on your couch or, you
know, they're really used to you firing back pretty quick. And so what's that
going to say about you? Oh, yeah, I'll just save that work out for later.
(16:45):
It's really not going to make that big of a deal if I wait. So you can see how these parts
sabotage how we set boundaries. And
so I think it's so critical. We're beyond the
like, let's just put a Band-Aid on it. Let's just go take a walk and take
a bubble bath and just have these little mental
health hours. No, no, no. We can do better. And we need to be more
(17:06):
consistent. And we need to go deeper with what's truly going on
so that we can align and soothe and not just search for
How do we go about discovering what that is for
each of us? So, you know, I've done some work to try to understand low
states for myself during the day. So I know that if I have projects,
(17:27):
you know, heavy thinking, brain intensive work, I'm gonna be
most productive between the hours of 10 a.m. and 12 p.m., right?
It's like a two hour window. I know that's my sweet spot. And
I leave all my kind of creative, you know, fun thinking
meetings for later in the day. But that took me a really, really
long time to figure out. Many, many, many years.
(17:49):
How do we jumpstart that? How do we get into really investigating
ourselves for some of those things that we know either our
critic is holding us back from or, you know, what
we think we're supposed to show up as so that we can have a
better flow and continue to show up the way we want to? Because ultimately,
That's really what we're trying to do is still show up the way we want to show up,
(18:10):
but in a healthy way with healthy boundaries and not
putting ourselves in this, you know, serial fixer mode. Right,
And I think, you know, with how
much we use data, which rightfully so, to kind of keep track
of everything, especially in our professional role. Like, we need to
gather more data on ourselves. And like you said, it took you a while to
(18:33):
really understand, like, this is what I'm firing on all cylinders in this
way, and I need to capitalize on that. It took you many
times probably to pause and reflect and access some
of the data that you were collecting, checking in. And so I
think that's where we were misstepping. And
the cool thing is, is like self check-ins and gathering data,
(18:54):
it doesn't have to be this huge elaborate thing. Like capitalizing just
on our transitions during the day, when we're walking from one room to
the next, when we're driving to work, when we're doing soccer pickups or
whatever we're doing, we have dozens of transitions throughout the
day. And just using some of those as
moments where you can be like, where am I at? How
(19:15):
am I doing? What's resonating with me? What's not? Where have my thoughts been?
You have to refrain from judgment, which is tough. That's the critic. But
you also have to think about, I'm just gathering
data. I don't have to do anything. I don't have to necessarily go
overanalyze and fix and overthink. I'm gathering data
that will help me. figure out what works for me and what
(19:38):
doesn't. So when you have a week that is incredibly taxing,
which we all do, and you're being pulled in all directions,
you may know, like, in order to prevent an emotional hangover, I
need to carve out some time to do X, Y,
or Z. And my critic's going to be yelling at me, like, do you really need that? You
really probably should clean out the garage. I mean, it's been two years now. Come on. but
(20:00):
that's where you have to soothe and kind of anticipate like, I'm gonna meet
both these parts in the middle. And if I don't do this, I know I'm gonna pay
for it. So it's really having these almost conversations with
yourself as you're collecting data. And that's really how the lasting change
No break, love all of those great examples. And if
you're working fully remote and you're listening, build in those transitions. I
(20:22):
know that's not the point of this. discussion, but it
is very easy to log in and then you're on
24 seven literally because you're, you're remote. And so you don't think
about it, but building those transitions and those stop times for your
day, you don't have to, you don't have to log in
after dinner. Maybe you want to, maybe you've decided that that
(20:44):
flow works for you because I know some people who do that and
it's actually very, very productive for them and they don't They don't,
it doesn't add stress and they still can show up the way they want to. But for
me, I have to build in those transitions. So I, I kind of know if I've been
sitting here for like an hour and a half with no, no breaks, no,
you know, standing up, it's like, I gotta, I gotta get up. I gotta go take
(21:04):
out the dogs or do something for that, for that mental transition break. You
know, as we wrap our conversation up, Leah, What do you
think about for the future in this space? What are you seeing
is kind of the next hurdle that we're going to be talking about when it comes
to HR and and some of our serial fixer mentalities?
Oh, my gosh, we could talk all day about that, right?
(21:27):
I mean, I think the biggest thing is and a lot of you I
know are probably already doing this, but I think
in order, again, if we use that ball of yarn analogy and you're
prone to just catching everybody's ball of yarn and trying to untangle
it, think about keeping that ball of yarn with them and pulling on some threads for
them every now and again, but they still keep it. But I think in just
(21:48):
the profession of HR in general and just even leadership in
general, we have to do a better job of
asking people. Like, how do you know,
or what happens, what alarm bells
do you when you know you're at a high level of stress? Or
you are asking questions that seem invasive, but they're not.
(22:11):
What you're doing is you're actually encouraging this culture of
be aware of yourself. You're in charge of your
mental health. But it's helpful to have these conversations of
like, How are you taking care of yourself? What ways
do you tend to recover? What's helpful for
you in terms of recovery? What boundaries are you working on?
(22:34):
When are you able to access your grit and resilience? What motivates you?
Again, what alarm bells go off to let you know you're reaching a
high level of stress that isn't sustainable. Those
types of questions and check-ins where you're keeping
the ownership with that person is a very proactive,
very wellness-driven culture where
(22:56):
it's like, we're going to talk about this. I'm not having therapy sessions every
time we meet. That's not what we're doing in the professional landscape.
But those questions of even during the interview process,
What do you know about yourself and kind of your rhythms when it comes to
stress? How do you recover? What are some boundaries or
when you think of boundaries, what do you think of? Those are so
(23:22):
We're ready. I love that. Well, Leah, thank you so much for taking some
time out of your day to jump on the podcast and talk to me about
I hope you enjoyed today's episode. You can find show notes
and links at thehrmixtape.com. Come back
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