October 28, 2025 • 21 mins
In this episode of the HR Mixtape, host Shari Simpson sits down with Steve Cadigan, LinkedIn's first Chief HR Officer and founder of Cadigan Talent Ventures. They delve into the evolving landscape of the modern workforce, focusing on the shift from traditional job security to career security. This conversation is particularly timely as organizations face rapid changes driven by digital transformation and the need for agile talent strategies. Steve emphasizes the importance of fostering a culture of continuous learning and adaptability, making this episode a must-listen for HR professionals navigating today's challenges.
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Learn how to shift your focus from employee retention to career development.
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Discover why fostering a culture of learning can enhance employee loyalty.
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Explore strategies for building partnerships with educational institutions to future-proof your talent pipeline.
Hit “Play” to gain insights that can transform your HR approach!
Guest(s): Steve Cadigan, Author, Future of Work expert, LinkedIn’s first CHRO, Cadigan Talent Ventures
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
You're listening to the HR Mixtape. Your podcast with
the perfect mix of practical advice, thought-provoking interviews, and
stories that just hit different so that work doesn't have to feel, well,
Joining me today is Steve Cadigan, LinkedIn's first chief
HR officer and founder of Cadigan Talent Ventures. A
(00:25):
leading voice on the future of work, Steve helps companies navigate digital
transformation, culture shifts, and the evolving world of
So I love this topic of the
modern workforce, how things are changing, different
(00:48):
generations coming in. I've talked about it on the podcast before, but
I'd love to get your perspective on this
concept of career loyalty and what that
Well, one of the really interesting data points when we look at the
workforce is we've got more fluidity in the world of work than ever before.
(01:09):
More people changing companies, more people staying for shorter periods of time, more
people changing industries. And that, for me,
sort of suggests that maybe the contract is changing and
that we should, instead of offering job security in a
world where there's just so many choices where places and people and
industries, people can work, and more new industries today than any time in history, Maybe
(01:30):
instead of focusing and over-focusing on what we did in the
past, which is job security and retention, we
should focus on career security, which is just making people better
for an uncertain future. Because more companies are also having to lay
people off and cut costs and face this challenge
of how do I leverage AI and how is that going to impact my workforce? So
(01:51):
I don't think that promise of long tenure is what it used to be. And
that's nobody's fault. But I do think that's how I'm
encouraging leaders to say a bigger promise than job security, offer
career security, just make people better. And that's what I think
is sort of, I think it's going to get you to attract the
best people, you know, because they're going to say in an uncertain world
(02:11):
where new skills are needed faster than any time in history, I want to be somewhere
Yeah, how do you have that conversation with business
leaders then, making that shift from like that traditional view
of retention, that metric that we use in HR,
engagement, right? Those are kind of two big metrics we look at to
(02:31):
this new mindset where we're more focused on skills, we're more focused
on that development, which does mean that, like
you said, our workforce will be more fluid. So we might
have somebody that we put through an amazing program, or we
give them a lot of opportunities, and they're gone in two and a half years or
they're gone in three years. What are we saying to our
C-suite as to how that's going to impact the
(02:56):
I think we can look to the world of sports for some great lessons. Number
one, in the world of college athletics, the best athletes only
stay one year now. And you used to have three years to build
a culture, to build team, build muscle memory, build trust, build confidence.
And in organizations where the median tenure for 20 to 35 year olds
is around two and a half years today across the United States, two and a half is the
(03:18):
median, which means half of that is less. I think what that means
for C-suite is let's not have jobs that take two years
for someone to understand. Let's have rapid onboarding. Let's have
jobs that people can jump into. Let's not look at programs
for talent development. Let's look at on the job experiences and
new challenges and new opportunities. So in the job,
(03:39):
they're delivering value, but they're also taking on new tasks so that
If the winds shift in terms of our business focus, our market focus, we've
got people who can pick it up and we don't have months and months trying to
fill a requisition that's a really impossible skillset to find. So
that's how I'm having them think about it. Like, listen, what can we learn from the best
coaches and the best sports teams in America? They're always
(04:00):
recruiting. They're onboarding people really, really fast and
they're looking for teamwork to start from day one, not
after year one, you know, and, and that's not something most
businesses were built for, right? The architecture work is the longer we're
together, the more successful we can be. And the good news is we've got
more and more examples of incredible companies building phenomenal
(04:21):
value. with decreasing tenure. So the
fastest, top five fastest growing companies in
the world right now are averaging below four
years tenure right now. And that's, so they're not winning
because of all those 30 year, you know, dinners with the anniversaries of
the people who've been there forever. They're winning because they're recognizing new
(04:42):
ideas and new perspectives. In HR we call that
a word that used to be cool and now it's sort of like verboten. We call that diversity.
You know, lots of people with lots of different experiences from lots of different places
makes you better in an unpredictable world. And so
I'm going to stick with the sports analogy. I'm a baseball girl
(05:03):
at heart. So, you know, in that analogy, they've got
an entire farm system where those skills are being built and some of those things
are being taught. If you're hiring for Rapid, wrap
it on boarding, wrap it into the roles. Who's now taking on
kind of that skills development responsibility? Are you looking at
maybe colleges or universities to tap into more
(05:24):
frequently? Or are you looking for, you know, maybe we do
Sure. That is, I mean, let's just take a moment. That is a phenomenal question,
right? If we're needing new skills faster than ever before,
if people are leaving companies sooner than ever before, how are we going to
thrive and create value? And who owns that? Government, education
(05:46):
institutions, or businesses, right? Those are the three constituents,
the three main stakeholders. Well, let's look at business. What's
the first organization to let go when a company goes through a downturn? It's
the learning and development team. Not sure why, but that's a
decision a lot of people make. Maybe that learning stuff's a little bit extra, but when
we need new skills, we're going to go buy it on the open market. How's that working out for
(06:07):
you? It's not working out so well. And governments, I
think, are sort of on their heels now. They're still trying to figure out what the internet is. And
then educational institutions are going to business leaders saying, what business skills
do you need? And business is saying, hey, we'll get back to you. We're not really sure right
now. And so what I think it is, it's an ecosystem. I'm
seeing the companies that are thriving with rapid learning
(06:29):
and skill development are ones that are building deeper ecosystems with
universities. Not just, hey, can you send
us some students for internships? It's like, can you bring your professors in here? Can
we bring our leaders to teach classes, to get exposure
to your talent, to give your students problems to solve? Can
we use that relationship more actively? And
(06:49):
I think that's got to be the future. No company is built
right now to develop people as fast as all the skills that
they need. It's just not. Nor is every company equipped to
hire all the new skills at the pace that we need the new skills. So
it's going to have to be a blend. And this is really an uncomfortable moment,
Shari, because most business models were not built for this. Most
(07:10):
companies were not built to ramp up their people as fast as they need, because
I need you to develop a product. I need you to, you know, deliver X
number widgets, right? I don't have built in 20%, 30%, 40% of your time. is
learning new things and taking on new challenges. And until
we get that model, right, I think it's going to have to be an ecosystem play. It's
(07:31):
You know, you gave a really good example there of what HR professionals
can do right now in partnering with their local universities. I
loved the example of not just, Hey,
how do we leverage, you know, professors, but can we bring some of our
business leaders in, you know, Do a module in a business
development class or an intro to business class and solve a real world problem.
(07:52):
That's, it's an amazing idea to walk away from this
conversation if you're listening. You know, what are some other practical things
that, you know, HR can do right now to start making this transition to,
Yeah, I think here's a big one. I think we're going to have to start recognizing
another really uncomfortable truth. that what you know is
(08:14):
increasingly less important than what you can learn what you
can learn is more important so i think it's a job professionals as leaders we
start coaching our hiring managers and our c suite to
say hey. We know where business is gonna continue to change faster
than ever before we can enter new markets when i need new skills. Let's
try to make sure we're hiring people that have high learning velocity, that
(08:36):
have high curiosity, that can demonstrate to
us that we can see a pattern of them adopting new skills and
challenging themselves. I don't know. I mean, one of the things that I look for when
I'm helping organizations figure this out is, are the people you're hiring Have
they lived in different cultures and countries? Have they learned new languages? Have
they been through some changes in their life
(08:57):
that forced them to adapt? I mean, that's what we're solving for right
now. And that's so different from what we're solving for in the past, which is,
I want you to do the same thing forever. And you
can't even think of applying for another job until you've crushed this for five
years. And that's just not going to work today because when I look inside
a company, I don't see a lot of opportunity. But when I look outside, thank you, internet,
(09:18):
there's so much more transparency to other things I could do. I'm going
to go do that. There's so much more green grass. So if you
want loyalty, I say that you've got to be aware that talent's loyal
to learning right now. They're not loyal to your company. If your company is offering learning,
they're going to be loyal to you. But that's what I mean is starting back to the
beginning part of our conversation. You know, the companies
(09:38):
that offer career security, more learning, more growth and
development are going to get the best people finding them. That's
how you solve recruit. That's how we solve recruiting at LinkedIn. Well, we exploded from
basically a few hundred employees to 4,000 employees in under four years.
We did that because we created a place where the best people found us, not
because we were masters of some recruiting ninja, you
(10:00):
know, black belt art form is because it's a very simple truth.
Become a place the best people want to be. And I think this
notion of career experiences and new learnings
is really powerful. And let me leave the audience with another sort of
question for them to ask themselves. Ask yourself and
ask your leaders, when is the greatest breakthrough moment that you've had
(10:20):
in your career? Has it been when you've been in the same job family four, five,
six years? Or was it when someone tapped you on the shoulder and said, I
got something new for you? And you said, oh crap, I don't think I can do that.
I don't think I'm ready. And they said, yes, I think you are. And
then you crushed it and you came home with so much energy and
so much career joy. But the problem for us is we've designed
(10:41):
to disable that from happening. But most of us had those breakthrough
career moments where someone who believed in us put us in a, in
a real stretch assignment. And we're going to have to do that more frequently
if we want people to feel more part of recognizing
we're going to have to grow and develop people. And those are the, those are the kinds of conversations I
How do we bring that to our leadership team? And
(11:04):
I don't mean the C-suite, I mean that middle manager group. Every
year we look at the top five trends for HR this
year, every single year leadership development is on that list. We have
not mastered it. And I'm amazed, every
role that I've had in HR, every organization I've stepped into, You
know, one of the first 90 days that they, you
(11:25):
know, in your first 90 days is like, hey, we need a leadership development program. Hey,
we need a management essentials. Hey, we need, you know, this type of training. What
does this look like now for this group? Because, you know, we're already
kind of on our heels trying to get our managers up to speed on
like the basics of management. And now we want them to think
kind of differently about developing employees, differently about things
(11:47):
like discretionary effort, different about learning and curiosity and
Yeah, right. I mean, just what leaders want to hear. We're going to put more on your plate. We're
going to change the recipe for you. They're just so excited, right? I remember
back in the days of manager self-reliance and one manager came up to me and
said, Steve, you know what I hear when I hear manager self-reliance, more work for
me. And I thought, thank you. I was really, thank you for being so honest.
(12:10):
Listen, this is a really hard, it's a really hard moment and I'm really
sad to my core. that the
pace that we're putting most organizations under and the rate of change
is taking our eye off the fact that leadership's really, really important. And
I had a sort of a theory on this coming
out of the pandemic that the length of time that organizations
(12:33):
were, because I'm living in Silicon Valley mostly and working with
a lot of technology companies, that most leaders were
thinking, we're going to build this, we're going to sell it, we're going to get acquired,
or we're going to die within 10 years. So why would
I build leaders? Right? And as, as an American business
community, and I'll ask the listeners, another hard question
(12:53):
to answer, get your friends together, leaders at lunch, HR
team, whatever, and ask yourself, what company is building the best, best
next generation of leaders today? Who do you want to go poach? so
that you're finding great leaders. Because if you're not taking the time to develop them,
you might as well go try to raid the closet of the people who are. And
the answer usually is, huh, I'm going to have to think
(13:15):
about that. And that, you know, in the early days, right,
it was, oh, GE, of course, you know, Crotonville, Jack Welch, you know,
all, you know, Ram Charan, all these incredible people. And now it's like,
I don't know. And when I left LinkedIn, that's the challenge I
gave my CEO as I departed. I said, I
think your bar to be the greatest leader that Silicon Valley has
ever seen is that the next generation of successful companies
(13:38):
hired your former employees. that people, you got a LinkedIn
executive? Holy cow. Every time those people come in, the
way they think, the way they build culture, their leadership style is off the
charts. And I just don't think we even have a few companies
to think of there. And then let me reverse the thought track on this,
on this question, because it's a great one. Why is it happening? Because people are dumb.
(13:59):
They're not developing leaders. I don't think so. How many companies do
you know today that are really convincing you they're building to
be around in a hundred years? Like, think about that, right? That's
a pretty short list. You're probably like, Oh, well, Amazon. Oh, sure. You
know, Starbucks. Okay. Yeah. Um, you know, Microsoft, but
those are the big giants, right? Like who else is really
(14:21):
starting off building saying we're going to be on. And I think that's
because Shari. The world's changing so fast. How
can I think I would be so bold that my company's going to be around in 20 years, let alone
100? Because things are changing so fast. And I remember sitting outside
the office of Reid Hoffman, the chairman and founder of LinkedIn one time, and he was asked,
(14:41):
hey, who's your biggest competitor? And his answer kind of reveals
how hard this is. He said, my competitor is a company that hasn't been
founded yet. Someone's going to come up with a new paradigm that's going to
take my business model out. right? Look at what Uber's done.
Look at what Airbnb's done. Look at what Tesla's done. A
new business model has completely disrupted a
(15:01):
legacy business. Look at a lot of the FinTech, right? Look at a lot of the banks
that have been taken over by some things that, you know, Apple
Wallet and Apple Pay and the credit card industry, right? So
it's like, That is causing, I think, taking people's
eye off the ball and not thinking like, hey, great leadership's
going to get us through this. It's like, no, no, no, we got to go shift the strategy. And
(15:22):
they're chasing the fires that we have today. That's
why I think it's too easy to go, oh, a bunch of lazy senior executives, they're
not investing in leadership. I think they're really distracted and they're
really under attack from too many fronts right now. And
the world's changing so fast. I think You know, it's a, it's a disappointment for
me. Right. And I think just like you, I'll, I'll yell this from the hilltops
(15:43):
until someone will start listening. But I think that pace is
Well, and then you add in the complexities of different
leaders having different views on makeup
of your workforce, either fluid or hybrid or fully
onsite or global or not global. You know, I'm consistently
(16:04):
amazed at, you know, mandates either way or
expectations either way that aren't focused on
research, that aren't focused on, you know, what can our employee population
actually produce in these different environments? You
know, how do you bring in this, this more resilient idea of
developing your workforce? So it doesn't matter what, you know, paradigm you're
(16:28):
Yeah. I think I'll go back to some of the pillars that I mentioned earlier.
I think talent is increasingly loyal to learning. So
that's really important. If you want great people, you need to invest in them.
I think a lot of our leaders love coaching and developing and
mentoring a lot more than we give them credit for. And I think that for
me personally, that's one of the greatest joys of my career is
(16:50):
looking at the people that I've hired and developed and
watching them butterfly, fly away. And it's
a beautiful thing. I also think that we can learn something from
the management consulting industry whose talent strategy is come
here and then please get a better job. And the better the job you get,
Maybe the more likely we've got more business with you in the future. Maybe you're a
(17:11):
business development angel. Maybe it's going to be easier for
me to recruit because I can show that someone who came here and got a better job is
going to be you. You're going to be next and you're going to grow. And
that's good ecosystem. And
it takes us out of the, you know, we have to do it all ourselves. I
mentioned earlier that I think for development, we're going to have to think in an ecosystem mindset.
(17:32):
It's a big part of the book I published a few years ago, Workquake. which is the last
chapter, which is I think the future business is going to have to be ecosystems, because we
can't do all the stuff that we need to do as fast as we do. And so if
I don't have to hire everyone and control everyone, but I can leverage relationships and
partnerships, that's going to allow me to access new markets, access talent,
and access opportunity a lot faster. And that is
(17:53):
out of the command and control. And so the people who are high command and control, that's
really uncomfortable, right? The intellectual property lawyers are like, whoa, whoa, whoa, people
are going to be touching this and they didn't sign the NDA. I'm like yeah but they're
already touching it not sending an NDA so let's lean in you
know the greatest environment of creativity and
innovation on the planet it's not i'm not here to sell it i'm not
(18:14):
here to tell you it's the it's the be all end all but i don't think
anyone can argue that silicon valley is produced more. market
leading technology, or market leading companies, or market value creation
than anywhere in the world. It's got the highest turnover of
any geography in the world. So what's going on? I
think what's going on is ideas are moving really, really quickly. And people
(18:35):
when they move companies say, I met a good product person, I met a good engineering person, I
met a good HR person, I met a good lawyer. So when my idea hits
me, I'm good to go. And in a world where people aren't moving, they
don't have those relationships to move and build really fast. And
I think there's something to learn there. We've got to lean in and recognize increasingly
the companies that are really thriving now are not the ones that
(18:56):
are containing everything themselves. They're hiring
new people and they're moving people that used to be there out to other places,
not taking the Tony Soprano school of HR, which is you quit, you're
dead to me. But you quit. Great. We're going to be even closer friends
Yeah. Well, and the, the leadership and, and
(19:16):
learning development in general, that, that concept that
moved to an organization that has more of that built in aligns
with what I'm seeing coming out of Gen Z into the workforce is that
is exactly the type of environment that they're looking for. And so
that transition is happening, you know, right at the
most important time for that generation coming in. You
(19:37):
know, I'm really excited to see what the future looks like
for that. So I guess, you know, as we wrap up our conversation, which
I feel like we could talk for hours and hours, you know, what's one
skill that's probably like too narrow, but one
skill that you believe every HR professional should learn right
now to prepare them for, not even the next five years, the next
(19:59):
Stop playing defense and fighting for retention. Start playing
offense and fight for a beautiful, skilled, diverse
workforce and expect that people are not
going to stay 10 years. Expect it. I still, I've been
talking about this for five years plus. I'm like, do
you think people are going to stay in companies longer in the future? Because the trend is they're leaving. Do you
(20:19):
think they're going to stay longer? No. Okay. Have you adjusted your strategy to
expect that to happen? And the answer is no, because
my bonus, my rewards, every one of my benefits is
all indexed off of you staying longer. more RO, more 401k
match, more vacation. I was like, so let's re-architect that
and shift it towards learning and development. Let's, let's expect that
(20:42):
people aren't going to stay long. And so we're not caught on our heels when
Sarah left and she's the only one that knows how to do X, Y, Z,
right? And so I think that's, you know, it's a big mindset shift, but
once you start accepting that and expecting it, I think the
rest of your strategy is going to feel less like you're going
Steve, such great advice for the HR community and business leaders listening. So
(21:07):
Yeah, it's great to be here, Shari. Let's play in a redux of this and, you
I hope you enjoyed today's episode. You can find show notes
and links at thehrmixtape.com Come back
You're listening to the HR Mixtape. Your podcast with
the perfect mix of practical advice, thought-provoking interviews, and
stories that just hit different so that work doesn't have to feel, well,
Joining me today is Steve Cadigan, LinkedIn's first chief
HR officer and founder of Cadigan Talent Ventures. A
(00:25):
leading voice on the future of work, Steve helps companies navigate digital
transformation, culture shifts, and the evolving world of
So I love this topic of the
modern workforce, how things are changing, different
(00:48):
generations coming in. I've talked about it on the podcast before, but
I'd love to get your perspective on this
concept of career loyalty and what that
Well, one of the really interesting data points when we look at the
workforce is we've got more fluidity in the world of work than ever before.
(01:09):
More people changing companies, more people staying for shorter periods of time, more
people changing industries. And that, for me,
sort of suggests that maybe the contract is changing and
that we should, instead of offering job security in a
world where there's just so many choices where places and people and
industries, people can work, and more new industries today than any time in history, Maybe
(01:30):
instead of focusing and over-focusing on what we did in the
past, which is job security and retention, we
should focus on career security, which is just making people better
for an uncertain future. Because more companies are also having to lay
people off and cut costs and face this challenge
of how do I leverage AI and how is that going to impact my workforce? So
(01:51):
I don't think that promise of long tenure is what it used to be. And
that's nobody's fault. But I do think that's how I'm
encouraging leaders to say a bigger promise than job security, offer
career security, just make people better. And that's what I think
is sort of, I think it's going to get you to attract the
best people, you know, because they're going to say in an uncertain world
(02:11):
where new skills are needed faster than any time in history, I want to be somewhere
Yeah, how do you have that conversation with business
leaders then, making that shift from like that traditional view
of retention, that metric that we use in HR,
engagement, right? Those are kind of two big metrics we look at to
(02:31):
this new mindset where we're more focused on skills, we're more focused
on that development, which does mean that, like
you said, our workforce will be more fluid. So we might
have somebody that we put through an amazing program, or we
give them a lot of opportunities, and they're gone in two and a half years or
they're gone in three years. What are we saying to our
C-suite as to how that's going to impact the
(02:56):
I think we can look to the world of sports for some great lessons. Number
one, in the world of college athletics, the best athletes only
stay one year now. And you used to have three years to build
a culture, to build team, build muscle memory, build trust, build confidence.
And in organizations where the median tenure for 20 to 35 year olds
is around two and a half years today across the United States, two and a half is the
(03:18):
median, which means half of that is less. I think what that means
for C-suite is let's not have jobs that take two years
for someone to understand. Let's have rapid onboarding. Let's have
jobs that people can jump into. Let's not look at programs
for talent development. Let's look at on the job experiences and
new challenges and new opportunities. So in the job,
(03:39):
they're delivering value, but they're also taking on new tasks so that
If the winds shift in terms of our business focus, our market focus, we've
got people who can pick it up and we don't have months and months trying to
fill a requisition that's a really impossible skillset to find. So
that's how I'm having them think about it. Like, listen, what can we learn from the best
coaches and the best sports teams in America? They're always
(04:00):
recruiting. They're onboarding people really, really fast and
they're looking for teamwork to start from day one, not
after year one, you know, and, and that's not something most
businesses were built for, right? The architecture work is the longer we're
together, the more successful we can be. And the good news is we've got
more and more examples of incredible companies building phenomenal
(04:21):
value. with decreasing tenure. So the
fastest, top five fastest growing companies in
the world right now are averaging below four
years tenure right now. And that's, so they're not winning
because of all those 30 year, you know, dinners with the anniversaries of
the people who've been there forever. They're winning because they're recognizing new
(04:42):
ideas and new perspectives. In HR we call that
a word that used to be cool and now it's sort of like verboten. We call that diversity.
You know, lots of people with lots of different experiences from lots of different places
makes you better in an unpredictable world. And so
I'm going to stick with the sports analogy. I'm a baseball girl
(05:03):
at heart. So, you know, in that analogy, they've got
an entire farm system where those skills are being built and some of those things
are being taught. If you're hiring for Rapid, wrap
it on boarding, wrap it into the roles. Who's now taking on
kind of that skills development responsibility? Are you looking at
maybe colleges or universities to tap into more
(05:24):
frequently? Or are you looking for, you know, maybe we do
Sure. That is, I mean, let's just take a moment. That is a phenomenal question,
right? If we're needing new skills faster than ever before,
if people are leaving companies sooner than ever before, how are we going to
thrive and create value? And who owns that? Government, education
(05:46):
institutions, or businesses, right? Those are the three constituents,
the three main stakeholders. Well, let's look at business. What's
the first organization to let go when a company goes through a downturn? It's
the learning and development team. Not sure why, but that's a
decision a lot of people make. Maybe that learning stuff's a little bit extra, but when
we need new skills, we're going to go buy it on the open market. How's that working out for
(06:07):
you? It's not working out so well. And governments, I
think, are sort of on their heels now. They're still trying to figure out what the internet is. And
then educational institutions are going to business leaders saying, what business skills
do you need? And business is saying, hey, we'll get back to you. We're not really sure right
now. And so what I think it is, it's an ecosystem. I'm
seeing the companies that are thriving with rapid learning
(06:29):
and skill development are ones that are building deeper ecosystems with
universities. Not just, hey, can you send
us some students for internships? It's like, can you bring your professors in here? Can
we bring our leaders to teach classes, to get exposure
to your talent, to give your students problems to solve? Can
we use that relationship more actively? And
(06:49):
I think that's got to be the future. No company is built
right now to develop people as fast as all the skills that
they need. It's just not. Nor is every company equipped to
hire all the new skills at the pace that we need the new skills. So
it's going to have to be a blend. And this is really an uncomfortable moment,
Shari, because most business models were not built for this. Most
(07:10):
companies were not built to ramp up their people as fast as they need, because
I need you to develop a product. I need you to, you know, deliver X
number widgets, right? I don't have built in 20%, 30%, 40% of your time. is
learning new things and taking on new challenges. And until
we get that model, right, I think it's going to have to be an ecosystem play. It's
(07:31):
You know, you gave a really good example there of what HR professionals
can do right now in partnering with their local universities. I
loved the example of not just, Hey,
how do we leverage, you know, professors, but can we bring some of our
business leaders in, you know, Do a module in a business
development class or an intro to business class and solve a real world problem.
(07:52):
That's, it's an amazing idea to walk away from this
conversation if you're listening. You know, what are some other practical things
that, you know, HR can do right now to start making this transition to,
Yeah, I think here's a big one. I think we're going to have to start recognizing
another really uncomfortable truth. that what you know is
(08:14):
increasingly less important than what you can learn what you
can learn is more important so i think it's a job professionals as leaders we
start coaching our hiring managers and our c suite to
say hey. We know where business is gonna continue to change faster
than ever before we can enter new markets when i need new skills. Let's
try to make sure we're hiring people that have high learning velocity, that
(08:36):
have high curiosity, that can demonstrate to
us that we can see a pattern of them adopting new skills and
challenging themselves. I don't know. I mean, one of the things that I look for when
I'm helping organizations figure this out is, are the people you're hiring Have
they lived in different cultures and countries? Have they learned new languages? Have
they been through some changes in their life
(08:57):
that forced them to adapt? I mean, that's what we're solving for right
now. And that's so different from what we're solving for in the past, which is,
I want you to do the same thing forever. And you
can't even think of applying for another job until you've crushed this for five
years. And that's just not going to work today because when I look inside
a company, I don't see a lot of opportunity. But when I look outside, thank you, internet,
(09:18):
there's so much more transparency to other things I could do. I'm going
to go do that. There's so much more green grass. So if you
want loyalty, I say that you've got to be aware that talent's loyal
to learning right now. They're not loyal to your company. If your company is offering learning,
they're going to be loyal to you. But that's what I mean is starting back to the
beginning part of our conversation. You know, the companies
(09:38):
that offer career security, more learning, more growth and
development are going to get the best people finding them. That's
how you solve recruit. That's how we solve recruiting at LinkedIn. Well, we exploded from
basically a few hundred employees to 4,000 employees in under four years.
We did that because we created a place where the best people found us, not
because we were masters of some recruiting ninja, you
(10:00):
know, black belt art form is because it's a very simple truth.
Become a place the best people want to be. And I think this
notion of career experiences and new learnings
is really powerful. And let me leave the audience with another sort of
question for them to ask themselves. Ask yourself and
ask your leaders, when is the greatest breakthrough moment that you've had
(10:20):
in your career? Has it been when you've been in the same job family four, five,
six years? Or was it when someone tapped you on the shoulder and said, I
got something new for you? And you said, oh crap, I don't think I can do that.
I don't think I'm ready. And they said, yes, I think you are. And
then you crushed it and you came home with so much energy and
so much career joy. But the problem for us is we've designed
(10:41):
to disable that from happening. But most of us had those breakthrough
career moments where someone who believed in us put us in a, in
a real stretch assignment. And we're going to have to do that more frequently
if we want people to feel more part of recognizing
we're going to have to grow and develop people. And those are the, those are the kinds of conversations I
How do we bring that to our leadership team? And
(11:04):
I don't mean the C-suite, I mean that middle manager group. Every
year we look at the top five trends for HR this
year, every single year leadership development is on that list. We have
not mastered it. And I'm amazed, every
role that I've had in HR, every organization I've stepped into, You
know, one of the first 90 days that they, you
(11:25):
know, in your first 90 days is like, hey, we need a leadership development program. Hey,
we need a management essentials. Hey, we need, you know, this type of training. What
does this look like now for this group? Because, you know, we're already
kind of on our heels trying to get our managers up to speed on
like the basics of management. And now we want them to think
kind of differently about developing employees, differently about things
(11:47):
like discretionary effort, different about learning and curiosity and
Yeah, right. I mean, just what leaders want to hear. We're going to put more on your plate. We're
going to change the recipe for you. They're just so excited, right? I remember
back in the days of manager self-reliance and one manager came up to me and
said, Steve, you know what I hear when I hear manager self-reliance, more work for
me. And I thought, thank you. I was really, thank you for being so honest.
(12:10):
Listen, this is a really hard, it's a really hard moment and I'm really
sad to my core. that the
pace that we're putting most organizations under and the rate of change
is taking our eye off the fact that leadership's really, really important. And
I had a sort of a theory on this coming
out of the pandemic that the length of time that organizations
(12:33):
were, because I'm living in Silicon Valley mostly and working with
a lot of technology companies, that most leaders were
thinking, we're going to build this, we're going to sell it, we're going to get acquired,
or we're going to die within 10 years. So why would
I build leaders? Right? And as, as an American business
community, and I'll ask the listeners, another hard question
(12:53):
to answer, get your friends together, leaders at lunch, HR
team, whatever, and ask yourself, what company is building the best, best
next generation of leaders today? Who do you want to go poach? so
that you're finding great leaders. Because if you're not taking the time to develop them,
you might as well go try to raid the closet of the people who are. And
the answer usually is, huh, I'm going to have to think
(13:15):
about that. And that, you know, in the early days, right,
it was, oh, GE, of course, you know, Crotonville, Jack Welch, you know,
all, you know, Ram Charan, all these incredible people. And now it's like,
I don't know. And when I left LinkedIn, that's the challenge I
gave my CEO as I departed. I said, I
think your bar to be the greatest leader that Silicon Valley has
ever seen is that the next generation of successful companies
(13:38):
hired your former employees. that people, you got a LinkedIn
executive? Holy cow. Every time those people come in, the
way they think, the way they build culture, their leadership style is off the
charts. And I just don't think we even have a few companies
to think of there. And then let me reverse the thought track on this,
on this question, because it's a great one. Why is it happening? Because people are dumb.
(13:59):
They're not developing leaders. I don't think so. How many companies do
you know today that are really convincing you they're building to
be around in a hundred years? Like, think about that, right? That's
a pretty short list. You're probably like, Oh, well, Amazon. Oh, sure. You
know, Starbucks. Okay. Yeah. Um, you know, Microsoft, but
those are the big giants, right? Like who else is really
(14:21):
starting off building saying we're going to be on. And I think that's
because Shari. The world's changing so fast. How
can I think I would be so bold that my company's going to be around in 20 years, let alone
100? Because things are changing so fast. And I remember sitting outside
the office of Reid Hoffman, the chairman and founder of LinkedIn one time, and he was asked,
(14:41):
hey, who's your biggest competitor? And his answer kind of reveals
how hard this is. He said, my competitor is a company that hasn't been
founded yet. Someone's going to come up with a new paradigm that's going to
take my business model out. right? Look at what Uber's done.
Look at what Airbnb's done. Look at what Tesla's done. A
new business model has completely disrupted a
(15:01):
legacy business. Look at a lot of the FinTech, right? Look at a lot of the banks
that have been taken over by some things that, you know, Apple
Wallet and Apple Pay and the credit card industry, right? So
it's like, That is causing, I think, taking people's
eye off the ball and not thinking like, hey, great leadership's
going to get us through this. It's like, no, no, no, we got to go shift the strategy. And
(15:22):
they're chasing the fires that we have today. That's
why I think it's too easy to go, oh, a bunch of lazy senior executives, they're
not investing in leadership. I think they're really distracted and they're
really under attack from too many fronts right now. And
the world's changing so fast. I think You know, it's a, it's a disappointment for
me. Right. And I think just like you, I'll, I'll yell this from the hilltops
(15:43):
until someone will start listening. But I think that pace is
Well, and then you add in the complexities of different
leaders having different views on makeup
of your workforce, either fluid or hybrid or fully
onsite or global or not global. You know, I'm consistently
(16:04):
amazed at, you know, mandates either way or
expectations either way that aren't focused on
research, that aren't focused on, you know, what can our employee population
actually produce in these different environments? You
know, how do you bring in this, this more resilient idea of
developing your workforce? So it doesn't matter what, you know, paradigm you're
(16:28):
Yeah. I think I'll go back to some of the pillars that I mentioned earlier.
I think talent is increasingly loyal to learning. So
that's really important. If you want great people, you need to invest in them.
I think a lot of our leaders love coaching and developing and
mentoring a lot more than we give them credit for. And I think that for
me personally, that's one of the greatest joys of my career is
(16:50):
looking at the people that I've hired and developed and
watching them butterfly, fly away. And it's
a beautiful thing. I also think that we can learn something from
the management consulting industry whose talent strategy is come
here and then please get a better job. And the better the job you get,
Maybe the more likely we've got more business with you in the future. Maybe you're a
(17:11):
business development angel. Maybe it's going to be easier for
me to recruit because I can show that someone who came here and got a better job is
going to be you. You're going to be next and you're going to grow. And
that's good ecosystem. And
it takes us out of the, you know, we have to do it all ourselves. I
mentioned earlier that I think for development, we're going to have to think in an ecosystem mindset.
(17:32):
It's a big part of the book I published a few years ago, Workquake. which is the last
chapter, which is I think the future business is going to have to be ecosystems, because we
can't do all the stuff that we need to do as fast as we do. And so if
I don't have to hire everyone and control everyone, but I can leverage relationships and
partnerships, that's going to allow me to access new markets, access talent,
and access opportunity a lot faster. And that is
(17:53):
out of the command and control. And so the people who are high command and control, that's
really uncomfortable, right? The intellectual property lawyers are like, whoa, whoa, whoa, people
are going to be touching this and they didn't sign the NDA. I'm like yeah but they're
already touching it not sending an NDA so let's lean in you
know the greatest environment of creativity and
innovation on the planet it's not i'm not here to sell it i'm not
(18:14):
here to tell you it's the it's the be all end all but i don't think
anyone can argue that silicon valley is produced more. market
leading technology, or market leading companies, or market value creation
than anywhere in the world. It's got the highest turnover of
any geography in the world. So what's going on? I
think what's going on is ideas are moving really, really quickly. And people
(18:35):
when they move companies say, I met a good product person, I met a good engineering person, I
met a good HR person, I met a good lawyer. So when my idea hits
me, I'm good to go. And in a world where people aren't moving, they
don't have those relationships to move and build really fast. And
I think there's something to learn there. We've got to lean in and recognize increasingly
the companies that are really thriving now are not the ones that
(18:56):
are containing everything themselves. They're hiring
new people and they're moving people that used to be there out to other places,
not taking the Tony Soprano school of HR, which is you quit, you're
dead to me. But you quit. Great. We're going to be even closer friends
Yeah. Well, and the, the leadership and, and
(19:16):
learning development in general, that, that concept that
moved to an organization that has more of that built in aligns
with what I'm seeing coming out of Gen Z into the workforce is that
is exactly the type of environment that they're looking for. And so
that transition is happening, you know, right at the
most important time for that generation coming in. You
(19:37):
know, I'm really excited to see what the future looks like
for that. So I guess, you know, as we wrap up our conversation, which
I feel like we could talk for hours and hours, you know, what's one
skill that's probably like too narrow, but one
skill that you believe every HR professional should learn right
now to prepare them for, not even the next five years, the next
(19:59):
Stop playing defense and fighting for retention. Start playing
offense and fight for a beautiful, skilled, diverse
workforce and expect that people are not
going to stay 10 years. Expect it. I still, I've been
talking about this for five years plus. I'm like, do
you think people are going to stay in companies longer in the future? Because the trend is they're leaving. Do you
(20:19):
think they're going to stay longer? No. Okay. Have you adjusted your strategy to
expect that to happen? And the answer is no, because
my bonus, my rewards, every one of my benefits is
all indexed off of you staying longer. more RO, more 401k
match, more vacation. I was like, so let's re-architect that
and shift it towards learning and development. Let's, let's expect that
(20:42):
people aren't going to stay long. And so we're not caught on our heels when
Sarah left and she's the only one that knows how to do X, Y, Z,
right? And so I think that's, you know, it's a big mindset shift, but
once you start accepting that and expecting it, I think the
rest of your strategy is going to feel less like you're going
Steve, such great advice for the HR community and business leaders listening. So
(21:07):
Yeah, it's great to be here, Shari. Let's play in a redux of this and, you
I hope you enjoyed today's episode. You can find show notes
and links at thehrmixtape.com Come back
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