February 14, 2024 • 32 mins
In this episode of Hudson Valley Real Estate Explained, Michael Kahns and Richard "Rik" Brescia discuss the topic of agency in real estate transactions. They explain what it means to have representation on both the seller and buyer sides, as well as the importance of understanding dual agency. They delve into the responsibilities and obligations of agents in representing their clients' best interests. The conversation also touches on the benefits of having a buyer's agent, such as negotiating better deals and providing guidance throughout the process. The hosts share insights from their own experiences and highlight some challenges with dual agency relationships. Finally, they mention that buyer representation has been under scrutiny recently due to lawsuits regarding commissions paid to buyer's agents by sellers. The episode concludes by emphasizing the importance of knowing who is representing you in a real estate transaction and ensuring trust in your agent's ability to negotiate on your behalf.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:05):
Welcome to Hudson Valley's Real Estate Explained, your getaway to understanding real estate.
Whether you're buying your first home, an experienced investor,
or just real estate curious, this is the place for you.
So dive in with us as we unravel the intricacies of property deals and investment
strategies guided by industry experts.
We're demystifying Hudson Hudson Valley Real Estate together.
(00:26):
Let's go. And welcome back to another episode of Hudson Valley Real Estate Explained.
I'm your host, Michael Kahnz, and I am back with the man, the myth, the legend, Mr.
Richard Rick Brescia, associate broker and team member of Team Banks.
And today we have a, maybe not the sexiest of topics, maybe not the most intriguing,
(00:50):
but definitely a super, super important one, one that I think is overlooked
and kind of not talked about a lot.
And that is specifically the topic of agency,
what it means to have representation, both on the seller side and the buyer side,
why it's important to understand the difference between sellers and buyers representation
(01:11):
and what dual agency means and what you need to know if you're going into any sort of a deal.
So first off, Rick, Rick, welcome back.
Mike, thanks so much for having me. And even though it's not the sexiest topic,
maybe we can just try to make it seem a little sexier by potentially talking
deeper into the microphone.
(01:32):
Or not. I don't know what podcast guidelines are. I don't know if we just gained viewers or lost them.
Goodbye, everybody. Thanks so much. It's great having you.
You? So, so listen, you know, we'll, we'll,
we'll dive right into this topic and it's, it's, it's, it's one of those topics
that I think does tend to get avoided and is a little misunderstood by folks
(01:58):
out there that are looking to buy and sell.
So let's just start off with a simple question. You know, what is agency?
Forget buyer sellers, dual, all of that for right now. Now, what is an agency
relationship with a client?
Oh, you're throwing this right to me. Yes. Yeah. If we were to define an agency
(02:20):
relationship, what, what does that mean?
Well, I think, I mean, I think relationship is, is the key word in there.
If you just even leave agency out, it's, it's your, it's your one-on-one relationship
with that client that you hold a responsibility to and for, right?
And I think that, you know, for the most part, I tend to think real estate agents
(02:41):
get this for the most part.
I tend to think the general public sometimes doesn't necessarily get what that relationship is.
And hopefully we'll cover that today. But that agency, so to speak,
and I'm holding up finger quotes that everyone can't see.
Actually, and I just lied because Michael tell you I was not actually holding
up finger quotes, but that's what I meant. You were in your brain.
(03:04):
Right. There you go. That agency, you know, is so crucial and so important because
that's your allegiance to either the seller or the buyer in,
in a real estate transaction.
And that allegiance is, is so important, you know, as we're discovering.
And, and, you know, New York state, when we're studying for a test and when
(03:24):
we take our test, they clearly define the difference between a customer and a client, right?
Absolutely. And you can help a customer in a real estate transaction,
but becoming a client and having a fiduciary responsibility to represent that
person's best interests at all times, the, you know, the right to disclosure,
(03:46):
the right to reasonable skill and care, the right to proper accounting,
you know, all of those really important responsibilities that we are legally bound to uphold.
When you enter into an agency relationship agreement is, is,
is, is a critical defining factor and it can really impact.
You know, it's, it's very interesting. I find in the beginning of transactions,
(04:09):
it's really, it tends to not be as a big a deal until something goes a little
sideways or when you have to negotiate or when things get sticky,
it is at that moment where, you know, having the right representation becomes
absolutely critical. Would you agree?
I agree entirely. And also I remember a time when, because I'm maybe a year
(04:30):
or two older than you, Mike, where it wasn't clear.
And I think that the industry went above and beyond to make it clear in the
early 2000s. But the late 90s and before that, agency was still a little bit of a free-for-all.
It was very different than it is today. I don't want to get into the backstory
(04:51):
because agency, like you said, is not a sexy enough topic to begin with.
But it definitely has gotten better than when, let's say, your parents bought a home.
So I think we're in a better position today and I think we're getting even better
with some of the new stuff coming out, which we'll touch on at the very end of this.
Yeah. And it's, it, and it's a, it's a critical, it's critical component.
(05:12):
So my understanding, and I wasn't around for these days, so I'll have to take your word for it.
But my understanding is, you know, a long time ago, everybody represented the
seller and that's correct.
And it was quote unquote buyer beware.
And I will do the actual finger quotes. Yeah, no, he did them for real though.
(05:32):
So buyer beware, everybody represents the seller and, you know,
buyers needed to essentially fend for themselves, correct?
Well, yes. So here's what happened and I'll do it real quick.
You would be taking out buyers consistently, just much like we do today.
And you'd show them 10, 12 houses on a weekend and then they come back the next
(05:53):
weekend and they would walk down into the basement and they would say,
can you hold my small child? and they would trust you with their child.
Yet you signed a form with them saying that although you have this relationship
and you've probably had lunch together and now you've met with them,
you know, several times that you work for the seller who you don't know.
(06:14):
You know, most of the times you're taking them to the homes that were represented
and listed with somebody else and you didn't know that person whatsoever.
Yet you had a disclosure sign saying that you worked for that person.
Yeah. And that's what changed in the industry. You know, I think around 2000,
I could be off on the year, but. Such a good improvement for our industry as we'll get into here.
(06:36):
So seller's agency today, what does that look like?
What is the definition of being a seller's agent? Okay.
Well, I think, you know, anybody here who sold a home knows that when you sit
down, you list a house with a real estate agent of your choice and you sign
a listing contract as well as a seller's agency agreement,
(07:01):
meaning that that agent is representing you as the homeowner,
not necessarily buyers that come in, but you. you. So they have your best interest at heart.
So you can confide in them. You can be truthful with them and they have your
best interest at heart. It doesn't mean that we won't disclose.
I mean, if there's any sort of, you know, latent defects in the house,
(07:21):
we have to disclose that, but otherwise, I mean, for the most part,
that's, that's your relationship.
That's, that's who you're tied to. You're tied to your, your listing agent.
And I think that's important. We have this legal, legal, it's not just a, an ethical thing.
It's a a legal thing where we have to represent your best interests at all times. Absolutely.
(07:43):
So sort of like client attorney privilege where somebody can share something
with an attorney and they do not have to share that out.
Very similar with a real estate agent. If they share with us,
I'd be willing to fix this or I'd be willing to lower the price.
We do not have to share that unless instructed to on their behalf.
(08:06):
We can hold that information. And in a negotiation, knowing that this person
is fully aligned with your best interests and is held to that standard from
a legal standpoint is, is, is really, really important because you have to trust that person.
You have to trust that they're doing the best job they can for you. Indeed you do.
Absolutely. So I think it's pretty common to experience listing agent and seller agency relationships.
(08:32):
That's pretty common. But what might not be so well understood is the buyer agency portion of it.
And if we were to, you know, I guess all of the same rules apply, right?
We have a fiduciary obligation now to the buyer, correct? correct? Absolutely.
Yes. It does work the same way. You have that obligation to them and you have
(08:54):
that relationship with them.
And if they were to tell you something in confidence that they necessarily don't
want to go out to, as long as it's not hurting another party by any means,
that, that, that is a privilege that you, you have between yourself and that buyer.
And that is an agreement that you keep and you're bound to. And we do sign those
(09:16):
with our buyers that we take out.
So let me ask you a question because in earlier in the podcast,
we had mentioned that everybody represents is representing the seller.
And we had a sign of disclosure saying that we're getting paid by the seller, right?
We're still getting paid by the seller. So why aren't we representing the seller's
best interest if they're the ones writing the commission check at the end?
(09:38):
Well, the money is, you know, I you're, you're correct. The money is technically
coming from from the seller at that point, but realistically the money,
If you, Jesus, it's hard to explain.
Can I put you on the spot there? No, that's okay. No, I expected you to,
but obviously I'll get you back at some point.
(10:00):
So the seller signs a listing contract with their listing agent. Okay.
Within that, there is a commission.
Okay. And that commission is divided up however that listing agencies fit with a buyer's agent.
It's put in multiple listing that way and a buyer's agent, you know,
(10:21):
is, is guaranteed that money should they bring a ready, willing,
enabled buyer and also close on the deal.
So, so the money is, is there. It's actually the listing agent who is sharing the money.
It's not necessarily, it's coming from the seller initially,
but it's now through, through multiple listing is now available to a buyer's
(10:43):
agent out there. But that does not mean that the relationship changes with the buyer.
If you have a signed agreement, a signed agency with a buyer's agent,
then that buyer's agent should have the relationship with you.
So in other words, they're guiding you through the process, they're looking
out for your best interests as you go through the process, and that should not waver.
(11:05):
Yeah. And, and I think another misconception out there is that,
you know, you can find a better deal when going through the listing agent.
We've heard that from potential buyers lots of times.
Well, shouldn't I just call the listing agent? I can probably get a better deal
that way. I can get some inside information.
And, and, and I think there's a couple of issues with that.
(11:25):
I'd love your take, but issue number one is if you remember last.
Listing agent agency they are
obligated to get the most out of
you possible for their client they're going to charm
you they're going to make you feel comfortable but their
obligation is to the seller right and and to get the best possible terms for
(11:48):
them and then number two you can never really provide them any any information
that can be used against you right you are now negotiating on your own behalf.
And, and I think there are some real, real, real problems with that, but thoughts.
Yeah, no, my thoughts are exactly that. And especially for people who are coming
(12:09):
in from, you know, maybe out of the area or don't know the area very well,
or, you know, or it's our first experience buying a house.
They don't know things about houses that we just know,
and we can see, and we can point out just a real quick example of where a buyer's
agent might come them in very handy is if you walk into a house that was built
in the seventies and the house basically upstairs looks very much like the seventies,
(12:33):
but yet when you are downstairs in the home, the basement is freshly painted.
A real estate agent will generally say, a buyer's agent would say,
you know, when we get a home inspection, we're going to have to have them do
some moisture tests down here because they could have taken in water.
Why would they paint the whole basement fresh and the upstairs still has,
you know, paneling, so to speak, you know, it doesn't it makes sense that they
(12:55):
would address this issue in, in non-living space, you know, or you see things
that are off the floor, you know, just something that we have an eye for that
we see every single day that, that a buyer just may not.
Yeah, I agree. And when it comes to negotiating price, I'll.
Use a real life example. I just closed on a, on a home.
And I think this is a clear indication of why buyer agency can be to your benefit.
(13:22):
You know, I knew the agents that were selling the home. I knew the home,
I knew the market, I knew the comps.
We took a look at a home that was priced at $950,000, right?
And given a bunch of information, including the time it's been on the market,
the comps in the area, who the agents were that were on the other side,
the type of offer that we were bringing.
(13:44):
I was confident that we can negotiate.
Now, my client told me that they would love to get it for $925,000, right?
$25,000 under asking, but I felt we should go a lot lower.
And we recommended that they wanted to initially offer $900,000 and meet at the middle at $925,000.
I recommended putting in an offer at $850,000, $100,000 under asking.
(14:08):
And I crafted an offer that pulled comps, kind of politely and professionally
punched holes in their listing as to why it wasn't, we felt $850,000 was the right number.
So it was a really well-crafted offer.
We got a counter at $925,000 and my clients started jumping for joy.
(14:29):
Let's get it for $9,000. Let's go for nine. We will, we'll, we'll pay 900.
And I told them to just wait.
We were the only person biting. They wanted out of that house.
I knew I had the advantage.
And eventually we just held our guns and we held true to our, our, our offer.
And we ended up getting it for eight 50. They didn't have to come up one penny
(14:51):
off of their eight 50 offer.
Now, if they went directly to the listing agent, I'm sure they would have made
a deal somewhere in the middle and it would have cost them 40, 50, $60,000,
somewhere in that price range more for that house than had they had a,
and I'm I'm going to shoot my own horn here a little bit, but a,
(15:12):
a, a well-educated prepared real estate agent to negotiate on their behalf.
Now, folks, this is not common.
I'm not saying that come work with me and I'll get you a hundred thousand dollars off a home.
This is a unique situation, but I was able to understand the parameters of the
listing and understand and, and work for my clients.
(15:32):
Other times it might be, you have to be $30,000 over asking depending on the
situation. But my goal is to help you achieve your goal.
And if that's to get the house, I want to help you do that and save as much money as possible.
So, you know, I think that right there alone is evidence of why buyer's agency
is so important and why, you know, if you're shopping around,
(15:56):
not working with a listing agent and having somebody that is dedicated on your side is critical.
Yeah, I think that's a great example.
And plus it showcases you as somebody who sells near a million dollar home.
So it served multiple purposes here in the story.
But no, I do agree entirely. I mean, we can save people.
A lot of money by the knowledge that we'd accrued over the years.
(16:19):
Whereas if you just walk into a home with a listing agent, you're right.
You'll probably pay full price. And sometimes you do pay full price and that's
fine because it can be worth it.
But at other times, there's no way the general public can pull that amount of
knowledge, regardless of the internet and how far it stems right now,
you know, we're, we're out there constantly looking at homes.
(16:42):
We know the marketplace and, and this is why having a buyer's agent is useful.
It's, it's, it's so important and not just pricing, but like you said, inspections,
you know, there have been multiple times where myself and other members of the
team have talked people out of homes because they might be getting in over their
head, or we just see the writing on on the wall that this is,
(17:05):
it's very easy for people to get,
to fall in love with a particular, you know, attribute of the home or something,
you know, the big one is the kitchen.
Oh my God, I love the kitchen. But when you start looking at,
Hey, listen, there are a lot of other things that you need to consider.
And, you know, this is going to be a heavy load on your shoulders.
And when they start really thinking about it, sometimes it's hard for them to
(17:28):
let go of that that kitchen, but they've always come back and said,
I'm so glad, I'm so glad we didn't do that, where if you're going directly to
the listing agent, they're going to do everything they can to get you to buy that house.
Isn't the kitchen, they're going to focus on the kitchen because that's what's
getting you excited and they're not going to point out the heavy load that you'll
be taking on in the event that, you know, you do buy the house. So super important.
(17:50):
And it's not even just for, for pricing and getting the house at a fair deal.
It's also your buyer's agency can be super helpful in just helping you select
the people to finish the deal.
As you know, Mike, and I'm sure you've dealt with this before,
a lot of times people have a family friend who's an attorney and they want to
use that person because Uncle Johnny just got his law degree.
(18:12):
But realistically, it might be in matrimonial law.
So part of our job as buyer's agents is always to point people in the right direction,
not just to one person, but to give them multiple choices of attorneys and inspectors
and people that can help them safely through a transaction and successfully.
(18:33):
Totally agree. So let's get into a hot topic right now, and that is dual agency.
So can somebody represent both sides of the transaction, both the seller and the buyer?
This is funny because we've had a pre-discussion on this and we differ slightly.
So if we're being honest, I'm not a huge fan of it. I think if you represent
(18:54):
the seller, you represent the seller. If you represent the buyer,
you represent the buyer.
It's a little bit of a blurred line in between there.
Legally, it is not an issue or a problem. A seller's agent can perform dual
agency and represent a buyer.
Having managed real estate agents for years and had so many of them under my
(19:15):
belt. I've seen some problems with this in the past.
Sure. And that's, and I think that's what we want to get into.
I mean, so dual agency can occur two different ways, right?
So there's straight dual agency where you are one person representing both the
seller and the buyer in a transaction, right? Yes, sir.
(19:39):
And is representing both the buyer and the seller, but different agents, right?
Because we all work for brokerages and at the end of the day,
the brokerage, if they're on both sides, is dual agent, right?
We all operate under an umbrella and that is called dual agency with designated agents, right?
(20:01):
So where you are able to properly represent your client, buyer and seller,
separately but at the top there's a
common interest at the top of the pyramid the the lead
broker has a common interest
in both of them so it does technically fall under dual agency i think dual agency
(20:21):
with designated agents is probably less of a concern for you correct yeah i
haven't had any real issue or problem with that ever in 25 years now of being
in the business it's It's been mentioned, but there was never an issue. Yeah.
Yeah. But the other way. Yeah.
On both ends. And I agree with you. Listen, I think we're very much aligned on this.
(20:42):
It's not something that, it is something that, you know, happens and can be okay.
But it is, I think there are a lot of things to watch out for and red flags
and pitfalls you would want to avoid if you're entering into a dual agency relationship. relationship?
I guess, first off, if you're in a dual agency relationship and there's a negotiation.
(21:08):
How do you, you know, what, whose side do you take when something,
you know, radon, you know, I need a $2,000 credit.
I don't want to give a $2,000 credit. Whose side do you represent?
You know, how do you, do you just meet in the middle for everybody?
Cause that's not good representation to the buyer and it's not good representation to the seller.
So where is your your allegiance when you, if you are in a dual agency relationship?
(21:32):
Well, I think in something like that and, and, you know, your,
your allegiance, you, you signed firstly with a seller.
Okay. But I will tell you this, some of it, I, I, I think you have to just be
logical and work for the benefit of potentially all involved.
Let's use radon as that example. Again, let's say a high radon level comes back
(21:56):
and there's negotiation and it's just stagnant.
I think the logical conversation would be to counsel your seller and say,
look, in this particular situation.
This probably has to be remedied anyway. It came up on this inspection.
It's going to come up with whoever comes up and looks at the house next.
It's a problem with the home. And now that we know about it,
(22:20):
we have to also disclose it.
So I think a fair and logical answer would be best there and proper counsel to your seller.
Although you represent them at the same time, the whole idea and the reason
they hired you is to sell the home.
If you can't now because of this issue, it just makes sense for them to fix
(22:42):
it, whether it's for this deal or for any subsequent deal.
But as a dual agent, if you're picking up from the buyer that they'd be willing
to take it as is, if that's what it takes, what's your obligation at that point?
Because my understanding is as a dual agent, your fiduciary responsibility is always to the seller.
(23:03):
Correct. But so if I'm a dual agent and the buyer, by the way,
for those of you listening, this is a very important statement I'm about to make right now.
In New York State, it has been found that getting paperwork signed that you
are in a dual agency relationship is not evidence enough that you as a buyer
(23:27):
are aware of what type of relationship you are in. It has to be verbally explained to you.
So please know that if you're going into a dual agency relationship,
number one, read that, read what it says on that form.
It's not a contract. There is a agency disclosure.
It says right on the top, this is not a contract. If you're signing off on dual
(23:47):
agent, understand that if you're a buyer, they are legally required to represent
the best interests of the seller.
So if they're even picking up vibes that you'll take this as is,
and you're okay with that, you will take the radon problem and take care of it yourself.
Even if they're willing to fix it, we're obligated to tell them,
(24:08):
I don't think you have to, I think they'll take it as is.
Right? That is our obligation. So know that, you know, and having that person,
a realtor that can play hardball that, you know, knows how to have these conversations
with somebody that isn't going to show that kink in the armor and represent your best interest.
(24:29):
You know, we just had a, believe it or not, after we were under contract,
I was able to negotiate for a buyer who would have taken the house as is.
That was the initial agreement.
We did get an inspection for for informational purposes only,
but there was a lot wrong.
We were under contract at this point and I went back and I fought for this person.
And, you know, I don't want to use the word threatened, but really assertively
(24:52):
represented our position.
We had, you know, well water that came back with, you know, problems.
There was radon in the house. There were some other issues and I did get him
a radon system installed.
I did get him a UV light installed for his water system. They didn't have to
do that, but it was a, a strong negotiation that got him those, those things.
(25:18):
So I guess where I'm going with this is in a dual agency relationship at the
end of the day, your obligation is to the seller and you have to be prepared
to be very strong to negotiate and go into those conversations.
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
So buyer representation, we'll just, cause I know we're wrapping up on time
(25:38):
here. Buyer representation is been in the spotlight lately, right?
It certainly has. Yes. Buyer representation has been in the spotlight for what
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say for a lot of good reasons.
I don't know how closely our listeners follow some of the real estate news,
but there has been some lawsuits and some new ones that have popped up and it's mostly from sellers.
(26:02):
And their argument about buying a buyer's agent commission, paying a buyer's
agent to negotiate against them, which I think if you look at it from a very
acute or very narrow perspective makes sense.
But if you kind of take a look at it from a broader perspective,
it's better for the industry to have buyer and seller representation.
(26:22):
And we can dive into that in great detail,
but, you know, having people work to sell your house is,
is, is better for you overall than not, not to mention the fact that nobody
wants to go into one of these transactions as a buyer without some form of representation and trust.
(26:43):
Most people buying homes can't afford the representation.
They can't. So offering to help them out is most likely going to net you a much
higher price on your home. But I think the topic that I'm trying to get into,
and I'm mumbling here, I'm talking too much.
I've got to stop that, is the future of buyer representation.
(27:06):
And I think what we're going to see really soon here is essentially a little
bit more clarity around our role, a little bit more disclosure around how we're
getting paid and what could happen
if a seller does not want to pay our commission and that sort of stuff.
Is that your understanding as well? Well, it's my understanding,
and I think it is its own podcast, as we discussed.
(27:28):
Because like you said, there's so much to get into regarding buyer representation.
And I think in the market we're about to approach, you're going to be seeing a lot of it.
And I think it's something we should definitely address and maybe have somebody
else in here too, helping us address that topic.
Because it's super important, it's going to happen, and it's inevitable.
(27:49):
Profitable and I think the general public really needs to know about it to fully understand it.
Yeah. It's, it's, you know, again, I said in the beginning, I think this is
a topic that is less talked about or less really understood,
but it's so, so important in it.
And it could mean the difference, the world of difference for you as a potential
buyer or seller to really understand this, you know, in other industries,
(28:14):
it's not something that's, it's very obvious.
If you're getting a divorce, the husband and wife doesn't hire the same attorney, right?
That is correct. They have to hire different attorneys and you have to, you know, if you're...
Being sued, there's a, you know, you have different attorneys on either side.
You can't be represented by the same person. And you have to know that your
(28:36):
attorney is representing your best interest at all time.
It's very much the same with real estate agents.
Having representation is super, super important.
And, and, and I think could save you not only a lot of money,
but a lot of stress and heartache as well for making some bad decisions.
So to wrap up some key points. Yeah. Well, I think one of the key points is
(28:58):
you were exactly right when you started this entire conversation saying that
agency is not a sexy topic.
Because there was nothing sexy about this discussion, Mike.
Not even a smidge. Or maybe that shirt. Except for you, Rick.
Well, and I was going to go with your shirt.
You don't have to tell the backstory. It's fine. So I like my shirt.
(29:20):
Rick doesn't too much. I think it looks good.
You notice this podcast is just audio only. The tomato, tomato, but yeah.
So listen, agency, it's important to know who you're talking to.
Are you talking to the listing agent?
Are you talking to a buyer's agent? Are they representing you?
Are you in a client agent relationship or are you a customer? There is a difference.
(29:43):
And feel free to ask your agent that question. Yeah. Okay. For the general public, just ask, yeah.
You need to know who's, who's representing who it's very important.
Absolutely. You should be given paperwork regarding agency disclosure and who
they're representing. That is not a contract.
You can, they may also offer you a contract or some sort of legal right to represent
(30:07):
and in which case, if you are really, if you really trust that realtor and you'd
like to move forward with them, I would encourage you to sign it.
You know, they're going to, at that point, they're going to,
at that point, or they should, I should say, take you on as a client and give
you the best representation possible.
And, and many agents will not perform the best agents out there typically do
(30:30):
not perform for buyers unless they have some sort of agreement,
like, Hey, we're working together, right?
Cause this is, you know, until I get you to the closing table,
this is volunteer for me, right?
This is, I'm taking time away from my family, my kids, my, my other clients to help you.
I'm happy to do that, but we need to agree that we're going to work together.
(30:50):
So have the conversations, know who, who, who is working for you.
Make sure that person is somebody that you know, like, and trust most importantly,
trust them to be able to negotiate on your behalf.
Cause once you start down this journey and I've seen this so often it's,
it's It's when things get dicey, it's when you get into rough waters that that
(31:16):
relationship really gets tested and you need, and you need somebody that will see you through it.
It's all fine and dandy when you're looking at houses and checking out the kitchen
and you're opening up lock boxes.
That's not the time when you need a good agent. When you need a good agent is
10 steps later where your contract negotiation are falling apart because of
(31:38):
some, some, some real issues.
It's a really good point. Yeah. Sometimes I forget exactly how smart you are.
Thank you, Rick. I appreciate it. And I'm ashamed every time I do.
Anyhow. Well, I guess that wraps us up. Anything else that you wanted to add for us, Rick?
No, I just want to thank you again for having me and thank you for making me
comfortable in this vault.
(32:00):
Happy to have you Hudson Valley. Thank you for tuning in. I'll see you around the Valley. We're out.
Music.
Welcome to Hudson Valley's Real Estate Explained, your getaway to understanding real estate.
Whether you're buying your first home, an experienced investor,
or just real estate curious, this is the place for you.
So dive in with us as we unravel the intricacies of property deals and investment
strategies guided by industry experts.
We're demystifying Hudson Hudson Valley Real Estate together.
(00:26):
Let's go. And welcome back to another episode of Hudson Valley Real Estate Explained.
I'm your host, Michael Kahnz, and I am back with the man, the myth, the legend, Mr.
Richard Rick Brescia, associate broker and team member of Team Banks.
And today we have a, maybe not the sexiest of topics, maybe not the most intriguing,
(00:50):
but definitely a super, super important one, one that I think is overlooked
and kind of not talked about a lot.
And that is specifically the topic of agency,
what it means to have representation, both on the seller side and the buyer side,
why it's important to understand the difference between sellers and buyers representation
(01:11):
and what dual agency means and what you need to know if you're going into any sort of a deal.
So first off, Rick, Rick, welcome back.
Mike, thanks so much for having me. And even though it's not the sexiest topic,
maybe we can just try to make it seem a little sexier by potentially talking
deeper into the microphone.
(01:32):
Or not. I don't know what podcast guidelines are. I don't know if we just gained viewers or lost them.
Goodbye, everybody. Thanks so much. It's great having you.
You? So, so listen, you know, we'll, we'll,
we'll dive right into this topic and it's, it's, it's, it's one of those topics
that I think does tend to get avoided and is a little misunderstood by folks
(01:58):
out there that are looking to buy and sell.
So let's just start off with a simple question. You know, what is agency?
Forget buyer sellers, dual, all of that for right now. Now, what is an agency
relationship with a client?
Oh, you're throwing this right to me. Yes. Yeah. If we were to define an agency
(02:20):
relationship, what, what does that mean?
Well, I think, I mean, I think relationship is, is the key word in there.
If you just even leave agency out, it's, it's your, it's your one-on-one relationship
with that client that you hold a responsibility to and for, right?
And I think that, you know, for the most part, I tend to think real estate agents
(02:41):
get this for the most part.
I tend to think the general public sometimes doesn't necessarily get what that relationship is.
And hopefully we'll cover that today. But that agency, so to speak,
and I'm holding up finger quotes that everyone can't see.
Actually, and I just lied because Michael tell you I was not actually holding
up finger quotes, but that's what I meant. You were in your brain.
(03:04):
Right. There you go. That agency, you know, is so crucial and so important because
that's your allegiance to either the seller or the buyer in,
in a real estate transaction.
And that allegiance is, is so important, you know, as we're discovering.
And, and, you know, New York state, when we're studying for a test and when
(03:24):
we take our test, they clearly define the difference between a customer and a client, right?
Absolutely. And you can help a customer in a real estate transaction,
but becoming a client and having a fiduciary responsibility to represent that
person's best interests at all times, the, you know, the right to disclosure,
(03:46):
the right to reasonable skill and care, the right to proper accounting,
you know, all of those really important responsibilities that we are legally bound to uphold.
When you enter into an agency relationship agreement is, is,
is, is a critical defining factor and it can really impact.
You know, it's, it's very interesting. I find in the beginning of transactions,
(04:09):
it's really, it tends to not be as a big a deal until something goes a little
sideways or when you have to negotiate or when things get sticky,
it is at that moment where, you know, having the right representation becomes
absolutely critical. Would you agree?
I agree entirely. And also I remember a time when, because I'm maybe a year
(04:30):
or two older than you, Mike, where it wasn't clear.
And I think that the industry went above and beyond to make it clear in the
early 2000s. But the late 90s and before that, agency was still a little bit of a free-for-all.
It was very different than it is today. I don't want to get into the backstory
(04:51):
because agency, like you said, is not a sexy enough topic to begin with.
But it definitely has gotten better than when, let's say, your parents bought a home.
So I think we're in a better position today and I think we're getting even better
with some of the new stuff coming out, which we'll touch on at the very end of this.
Yeah. And it's, it, and it's a, it's a critical, it's critical component.
(05:12):
So my understanding, and I wasn't around for these days, so I'll have to take your word for it.
But my understanding is, you know, a long time ago, everybody represented the
seller and that's correct.
And it was quote unquote buyer beware.
And I will do the actual finger quotes. Yeah, no, he did them for real though.
(05:32):
So buyer beware, everybody represents the seller and, you know,
buyers needed to essentially fend for themselves, correct?
Well, yes. So here's what happened and I'll do it real quick.
You would be taking out buyers consistently, just much like we do today.
And you'd show them 10, 12 houses on a weekend and then they come back the next
(05:53):
weekend and they would walk down into the basement and they would say,
can you hold my small child? and they would trust you with their child.
Yet you signed a form with them saying that although you have this relationship
and you've probably had lunch together and now you've met with them,
you know, several times that you work for the seller who you don't know.
(06:14):
You know, most of the times you're taking them to the homes that were represented
and listed with somebody else and you didn't know that person whatsoever.
Yet you had a disclosure sign saying that you worked for that person.
Yeah. And that's what changed in the industry. You know, I think around 2000,
I could be off on the year, but. Such a good improvement for our industry as we'll get into here.
(06:36):
So seller's agency today, what does that look like?
What is the definition of being a seller's agent? Okay.
Well, I think, you know, anybody here who sold a home knows that when you sit
down, you list a house with a real estate agent of your choice and you sign
a listing contract as well as a seller's agency agreement,
(07:01):
meaning that that agent is representing you as the homeowner,
not necessarily buyers that come in, but you. you. So they have your best interest at heart.
So you can confide in them. You can be truthful with them and they have your
best interest at heart. It doesn't mean that we won't disclose.
I mean, if there's any sort of, you know, latent defects in the house,
(07:21):
we have to disclose that, but otherwise, I mean, for the most part,
that's, that's your relationship.
That's, that's who you're tied to. You're tied to your, your listing agent.
And I think that's important. We have this legal, legal, it's not just a, an ethical thing.
It's a a legal thing where we have to represent your best interests at all times. Absolutely.
(07:43):
So sort of like client attorney privilege where somebody can share something
with an attorney and they do not have to share that out.
Very similar with a real estate agent. If they share with us,
I'd be willing to fix this or I'd be willing to lower the price.
We do not have to share that unless instructed to on their behalf.
(08:06):
We can hold that information. And in a negotiation, knowing that this person
is fully aligned with your best interests and is held to that standard from
a legal standpoint is, is, is really, really important because you have to trust that person.
You have to trust that they're doing the best job they can for you. Indeed you do.
Absolutely. So I think it's pretty common to experience listing agent and seller agency relationships.
(08:32):
That's pretty common. But what might not be so well understood is the buyer agency portion of it.
And if we were to, you know, I guess all of the same rules apply, right?
We have a fiduciary obligation now to the buyer, correct? correct? Absolutely.
Yes. It does work the same way. You have that obligation to them and you have
(08:54):
that relationship with them.
And if they were to tell you something in confidence that they necessarily don't
want to go out to, as long as it's not hurting another party by any means,
that, that, that is a privilege that you, you have between yourself and that buyer.
And that is an agreement that you keep and you're bound to. And we do sign those
(09:16):
with our buyers that we take out.
So let me ask you a question because in earlier in the podcast,
we had mentioned that everybody represents is representing the seller.
And we had a sign of disclosure saying that we're getting paid by the seller, right?
We're still getting paid by the seller. So why aren't we representing the seller's
best interest if they're the ones writing the commission check at the end?
(09:38):
Well, the money is, you know, I you're, you're correct. The money is technically
coming from from the seller at that point, but realistically the money,
If you, Jesus, it's hard to explain.
Can I put you on the spot there? No, that's okay. No, I expected you to,
but obviously I'll get you back at some point.
(10:00):
So the seller signs a listing contract with their listing agent. Okay.
Within that, there is a commission.
Okay. And that commission is divided up however that listing agencies fit with a buyer's agent.
It's put in multiple listing that way and a buyer's agent, you know,
(10:21):
is, is guaranteed that money should they bring a ready, willing,
enabled buyer and also close on the deal.
So, so the money is, is there. It's actually the listing agent who is sharing the money.
It's not necessarily, it's coming from the seller initially,
but it's now through, through multiple listing is now available to a buyer's
(10:43):
agent out there. But that does not mean that the relationship changes with the buyer.
If you have a signed agreement, a signed agency with a buyer's agent,
then that buyer's agent should have the relationship with you.
So in other words, they're guiding you through the process, they're looking
out for your best interests as you go through the process, and that should not waver.
(11:05):
Yeah. And, and I think another misconception out there is that,
you know, you can find a better deal when going through the listing agent.
We've heard that from potential buyers lots of times.
Well, shouldn't I just call the listing agent? I can probably get a better deal
that way. I can get some inside information.
And, and, and I think there's a couple of issues with that.
(11:25):
I'd love your take, but issue number one is if you remember last.
Listing agent agency they are
obligated to get the most out of
you possible for their client they're going to charm
you they're going to make you feel comfortable but their
obligation is to the seller right and and to get the best possible terms for
(11:48):
them and then number two you can never really provide them any any information
that can be used against you right you are now negotiating on your own behalf.
And, and I think there are some real, real, real problems with that, but thoughts.
Yeah, no, my thoughts are exactly that. And especially for people who are coming
(12:09):
in from, you know, maybe out of the area or don't know the area very well,
or, you know, or it's our first experience buying a house.
They don't know things about houses that we just know,
and we can see, and we can point out just a real quick example of where a buyer's
agent might come them in very handy is if you walk into a house that was built
in the seventies and the house basically upstairs looks very much like the seventies,
(12:33):
but yet when you are downstairs in the home, the basement is freshly painted.
A real estate agent will generally say, a buyer's agent would say,
you know, when we get a home inspection, we're going to have to have them do
some moisture tests down here because they could have taken in water.
Why would they paint the whole basement fresh and the upstairs still has,
you know, paneling, so to speak, you know, it doesn't it makes sense that they
(12:55):
would address this issue in, in non-living space, you know, or you see things
that are off the floor, you know, just something that we have an eye for that
we see every single day that, that a buyer just may not.
Yeah, I agree. And when it comes to negotiating price, I'll.
Use a real life example. I just closed on a, on a home.
And I think this is a clear indication of why buyer agency can be to your benefit.
(13:22):
You know, I knew the agents that were selling the home. I knew the home,
I knew the market, I knew the comps.
We took a look at a home that was priced at $950,000, right?
And given a bunch of information, including the time it's been on the market,
the comps in the area, who the agents were that were on the other side,
the type of offer that we were bringing.
(13:44):
I was confident that we can negotiate.
Now, my client told me that they would love to get it for $925,000, right?
$25,000 under asking, but I felt we should go a lot lower.
And we recommended that they wanted to initially offer $900,000 and meet at the middle at $925,000.
I recommended putting in an offer at $850,000, $100,000 under asking.
(14:08):
And I crafted an offer that pulled comps, kind of politely and professionally
punched holes in their listing as to why it wasn't, we felt $850,000 was the right number.
So it was a really well-crafted offer.
We got a counter at $925,000 and my clients started jumping for joy.
(14:29):
Let's get it for $9,000. Let's go for nine. We will, we'll, we'll pay 900.
And I told them to just wait.
We were the only person biting. They wanted out of that house.
I knew I had the advantage.
And eventually we just held our guns and we held true to our, our, our offer.
And we ended up getting it for eight 50. They didn't have to come up one penny
(14:51):
off of their eight 50 offer.
Now, if they went directly to the listing agent, I'm sure they would have made
a deal somewhere in the middle and it would have cost them 40, 50, $60,000,
somewhere in that price range more for that house than had they had a,
and I'm I'm going to shoot my own horn here a little bit, but a,
(15:12):
a, a well-educated prepared real estate agent to negotiate on their behalf.
Now, folks, this is not common.
I'm not saying that come work with me and I'll get you a hundred thousand dollars off a home.
This is a unique situation, but I was able to understand the parameters of the
listing and understand and, and work for my clients.
(15:32):
Other times it might be, you have to be $30,000 over asking depending on the
situation. But my goal is to help you achieve your goal.
And if that's to get the house, I want to help you do that and save as much money as possible.
So, you know, I think that right there alone is evidence of why buyer's agency
is so important and why, you know, if you're shopping around,
(15:56):
not working with a listing agent and having somebody that is dedicated on your side is critical.
Yeah, I think that's a great example.
And plus it showcases you as somebody who sells near a million dollar home.
So it served multiple purposes here in the story.
But no, I do agree entirely. I mean, we can save people.
A lot of money by the knowledge that we'd accrued over the years.
(16:19):
Whereas if you just walk into a home with a listing agent, you're right.
You'll probably pay full price. And sometimes you do pay full price and that's
fine because it can be worth it.
But at other times, there's no way the general public can pull that amount of
knowledge, regardless of the internet and how far it stems right now,
you know, we're, we're out there constantly looking at homes.
(16:42):
We know the marketplace and, and this is why having a buyer's agent is useful.
It's, it's, it's so important and not just pricing, but like you said, inspections,
you know, there have been multiple times where myself and other members of the
team have talked people out of homes because they might be getting in over their
head, or we just see the writing on on the wall that this is,
(17:05):
it's very easy for people to get,
to fall in love with a particular, you know, attribute of the home or something,
you know, the big one is the kitchen.
Oh my God, I love the kitchen. But when you start looking at,
Hey, listen, there are a lot of other things that you need to consider.
And, you know, this is going to be a heavy load on your shoulders.
And when they start really thinking about it, sometimes it's hard for them to
(17:28):
let go of that that kitchen, but they've always come back and said,
I'm so glad, I'm so glad we didn't do that, where if you're going directly to
the listing agent, they're going to do everything they can to get you to buy that house.
Isn't the kitchen, they're going to focus on the kitchen because that's what's
getting you excited and they're not going to point out the heavy load that you'll
be taking on in the event that, you know, you do buy the house. So super important.
(17:50):
And it's not even just for, for pricing and getting the house at a fair deal.
It's also your buyer's agency can be super helpful in just helping you select
the people to finish the deal.
As you know, Mike, and I'm sure you've dealt with this before,
a lot of times people have a family friend who's an attorney and they want to
use that person because Uncle Johnny just got his law degree.
(18:12):
But realistically, it might be in matrimonial law.
So part of our job as buyer's agents is always to point people in the right direction,
not just to one person, but to give them multiple choices of attorneys and inspectors
and people that can help them safely through a transaction and successfully.
(18:33):
Totally agree. So let's get into a hot topic right now, and that is dual agency.
So can somebody represent both sides of the transaction, both the seller and the buyer?
This is funny because we've had a pre-discussion on this and we differ slightly.
So if we're being honest, I'm not a huge fan of it. I think if you represent
(18:54):
the seller, you represent the seller. If you represent the buyer,
you represent the buyer.
It's a little bit of a blurred line in between there.
Legally, it is not an issue or a problem. A seller's agent can perform dual
agency and represent a buyer.
Having managed real estate agents for years and had so many of them under my
(19:15):
belt. I've seen some problems with this in the past.
Sure. And that's, and I think that's what we want to get into.
I mean, so dual agency can occur two different ways, right?
So there's straight dual agency where you are one person representing both the
seller and the buyer in a transaction, right? Yes, sir.
(19:39):
And is representing both the buyer and the seller, but different agents, right?
Because we all work for brokerages and at the end of the day,
the brokerage, if they're on both sides, is dual agent, right?
We all operate under an umbrella and that is called dual agency with designated agents, right?
(20:01):
So where you are able to properly represent your client, buyer and seller,
separately but at the top there's a
common interest at the top of the pyramid the the lead
broker has a common interest
in both of them so it does technically fall under dual agency i think dual agency
(20:21):
with designated agents is probably less of a concern for you correct yeah i
haven't had any real issue or problem with that ever in 25 years now of being
in the business it's It's been mentioned, but there was never an issue. Yeah.
Yeah. But the other way. Yeah.
On both ends. And I agree with you. Listen, I think we're very much aligned on this.
(20:42):
It's not something that, it is something that, you know, happens and can be okay.
But it is, I think there are a lot of things to watch out for and red flags
and pitfalls you would want to avoid if you're entering into a dual agency relationship. relationship?
I guess, first off, if you're in a dual agency relationship and there's a negotiation.
(21:08):
How do you, you know, what, whose side do you take when something,
you know, radon, you know, I need a $2,000 credit.
I don't want to give a $2,000 credit. Whose side do you represent?
You know, how do you, do you just meet in the middle for everybody?
Cause that's not good representation to the buyer and it's not good representation to the seller.
So where is your your allegiance when you, if you are in a dual agency relationship?
(21:32):
Well, I think in something like that and, and, you know, your,
your allegiance, you, you signed firstly with a seller.
Okay. But I will tell you this, some of it, I, I, I think you have to just be
logical and work for the benefit of potentially all involved.
Let's use radon as that example. Again, let's say a high radon level comes back
(21:56):
and there's negotiation and it's just stagnant.
I think the logical conversation would be to counsel your seller and say,
look, in this particular situation.
This probably has to be remedied anyway. It came up on this inspection.
It's going to come up with whoever comes up and looks at the house next.
It's a problem with the home. And now that we know about it,
(22:20):
we have to also disclose it.
So I think a fair and logical answer would be best there and proper counsel to your seller.
Although you represent them at the same time, the whole idea and the reason
they hired you is to sell the home.
If you can't now because of this issue, it just makes sense for them to fix
(22:42):
it, whether it's for this deal or for any subsequent deal.
But as a dual agent, if you're picking up from the buyer that they'd be willing
to take it as is, if that's what it takes, what's your obligation at that point?
Because my understanding is as a dual agent, your fiduciary responsibility is always to the seller.
(23:03):
Correct. But so if I'm a dual agent and the buyer, by the way,
for those of you listening, this is a very important statement I'm about to make right now.
In New York State, it has been found that getting paperwork signed that you
are in a dual agency relationship is not evidence enough that you as a buyer
(23:27):
are aware of what type of relationship you are in. It has to be verbally explained to you.
So please know that if you're going into a dual agency relationship,
number one, read that, read what it says on that form.
It's not a contract. There is a agency disclosure.
It says right on the top, this is not a contract. If you're signing off on dual
(23:47):
agent, understand that if you're a buyer, they are legally required to represent
the best interests of the seller.
So if they're even picking up vibes that you'll take this as is,
and you're okay with that, you will take the radon problem and take care of it yourself.
Even if they're willing to fix it, we're obligated to tell them,
(24:08):
I don't think you have to, I think they'll take it as is.
Right? That is our obligation. So know that, you know, and having that person,
a realtor that can play hardball that, you know, knows how to have these conversations
with somebody that isn't going to show that kink in the armor and represent your best interest.
(24:29):
You know, we just had a, believe it or not, after we were under contract,
I was able to negotiate for a buyer who would have taken the house as is.
That was the initial agreement.
We did get an inspection for for informational purposes only,
but there was a lot wrong.
We were under contract at this point and I went back and I fought for this person.
And, you know, I don't want to use the word threatened, but really assertively
(24:52):
represented our position.
We had, you know, well water that came back with, you know, problems.
There was radon in the house. There were some other issues and I did get him
a radon system installed.
I did get him a UV light installed for his water system. They didn't have to
do that, but it was a, a strong negotiation that got him those, those things.
(25:18):
So I guess where I'm going with this is in a dual agency relationship at the
end of the day, your obligation is to the seller and you have to be prepared
to be very strong to negotiate and go into those conversations.
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
So buyer representation, we'll just, cause I know we're wrapping up on time
(25:38):
here. Buyer representation is been in the spotlight lately, right?
It certainly has. Yes. Buyer representation has been in the spotlight for what
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say for a lot of good reasons.
I don't know how closely our listeners follow some of the real estate news,
but there has been some lawsuits and some new ones that have popped up and it's mostly from sellers.
(26:02):
And their argument about buying a buyer's agent commission, paying a buyer's
agent to negotiate against them, which I think if you look at it from a very
acute or very narrow perspective makes sense.
But if you kind of take a look at it from a broader perspective,
it's better for the industry to have buyer and seller representation.
(26:22):
And we can dive into that in great detail,
but, you know, having people work to sell your house is,
is, is better for you overall than not, not to mention the fact that nobody
wants to go into one of these transactions as a buyer without some form of representation and trust.
(26:43):
Most people buying homes can't afford the representation.
They can't. So offering to help them out is most likely going to net you a much
higher price on your home. But I think the topic that I'm trying to get into,
and I'm mumbling here, I'm talking too much.
I've got to stop that, is the future of buyer representation.
(27:06):
And I think what we're going to see really soon here is essentially a little
bit more clarity around our role, a little bit more disclosure around how we're
getting paid and what could happen
if a seller does not want to pay our commission and that sort of stuff.
Is that your understanding as well? Well, it's my understanding,
and I think it is its own podcast, as we discussed.
(27:28):
Because like you said, there's so much to get into regarding buyer representation.
And I think in the market we're about to approach, you're going to be seeing a lot of it.
And I think it's something we should definitely address and maybe have somebody
else in here too, helping us address that topic.
Because it's super important, it's going to happen, and it's inevitable.
(27:49):
Profitable and I think the general public really needs to know about it to fully understand it.
Yeah. It's, it's, you know, again, I said in the beginning, I think this is
a topic that is less talked about or less really understood,
but it's so, so important in it.
And it could mean the difference, the world of difference for you as a potential
buyer or seller to really understand this, you know, in other industries,
(28:14):
it's not something that's, it's very obvious.
If you're getting a divorce, the husband and wife doesn't hire the same attorney, right?
That is correct. They have to hire different attorneys and you have to, you know, if you're...
Being sued, there's a, you know, you have different attorneys on either side.
You can't be represented by the same person. And you have to know that your
(28:36):
attorney is representing your best interest at all time.
It's very much the same with real estate agents.
Having representation is super, super important.
And, and, and I think could save you not only a lot of money,
but a lot of stress and heartache as well for making some bad decisions.
So to wrap up some key points. Yeah. Well, I think one of the key points is
(28:58):
you were exactly right when you started this entire conversation saying that
agency is not a sexy topic.
Because there was nothing sexy about this discussion, Mike.
Not even a smidge. Or maybe that shirt. Except for you, Rick.
Well, and I was going to go with your shirt.
You don't have to tell the backstory. It's fine. So I like my shirt.
(29:20):
Rick doesn't too much. I think it looks good.
You notice this podcast is just audio only. The tomato, tomato, but yeah.
So listen, agency, it's important to know who you're talking to.
Are you talking to the listing agent?
Are you talking to a buyer's agent? Are they representing you?
Are you in a client agent relationship or are you a customer? There is a difference.
(29:43):
And feel free to ask your agent that question. Yeah. Okay. For the general public, just ask, yeah.
You need to know who's, who's representing who it's very important.
Absolutely. You should be given paperwork regarding agency disclosure and who
they're representing. That is not a contract.
You can, they may also offer you a contract or some sort of legal right to represent
(30:07):
and in which case, if you are really, if you really trust that realtor and you'd
like to move forward with them, I would encourage you to sign it.
You know, they're going to, at that point, they're going to,
at that point, or they should, I should say, take you on as a client and give
you the best representation possible.
And, and many agents will not perform the best agents out there typically do
(30:30):
not perform for buyers unless they have some sort of agreement,
like, Hey, we're working together, right?
Cause this is, you know, until I get you to the closing table,
this is volunteer for me, right?
This is, I'm taking time away from my family, my kids, my, my other clients to help you.
I'm happy to do that, but we need to agree that we're going to work together.
(30:50):
So have the conversations, know who, who, who is working for you.
Make sure that person is somebody that you know, like, and trust most importantly,
trust them to be able to negotiate on your behalf.
Cause once you start down this journey and I've seen this so often it's,
it's It's when things get dicey, it's when you get into rough waters that that
(31:16):
relationship really gets tested and you need, and you need somebody that will see you through it.
It's all fine and dandy when you're looking at houses and checking out the kitchen
and you're opening up lock boxes.
That's not the time when you need a good agent. When you need a good agent is
10 steps later where your contract negotiation are falling apart because of
(31:38):
some, some, some real issues.
It's a really good point. Yeah. Sometimes I forget exactly how smart you are.
Thank you, Rick. I appreciate it. And I'm ashamed every time I do.
Anyhow. Well, I guess that wraps us up. Anything else that you wanted to add for us, Rick?
No, I just want to thank you again for having me and thank you for making me
comfortable in this vault.
(32:00):
Happy to have you Hudson Valley. Thank you for tuning in. I'll see you around the Valley. We're out.
Music.
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