May 21, 2024 • 37 mins
Men are supposed to be tough. But even the toughest can suffer post-divorce.
As a divorcee, Jeff Kollez knows first-hand how difficult rebuilding a life can be.
So, in this episode, he shares his experience, practical tools, and insights to help you navigate the path to emotional recovery and growth.
#MentalHealth #SelfCare #Healing #EmotionalHealth #DivorceRecovery #LifeAfterDivorce #BreakTheStigma #MenSupportingMen #EmotionalWellness"
SHOW LINKS: Insta: https://www.instagram.com/HelloHuman.global/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HelloHuman.global/ Website: https://HelloHuman.global/podcast/
Connect with Jeff: https://bit.ly/3UOYMsN
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jeff (00:01):
I certainly wasn't taught anything on how to process emotions.
I just ran away fromthem the longest time.
I didn't even understandwhat emotions were until.
After I got divorced probably.
And I know there's a lot of othermen who have similar experiences.
Stacy (00:43):
There are few things in life as devastating as divorce.
Jeff Kollez works with men to helpthem navigate this turbulent period
and emerge stronger to create a life 2.
0.
And during this episode, Jeffshares his first hand experience
along with some practical toolsto make life a little bit better.
Jeff (01:05):
I was 36 when I got divorced.
And I didn't feel like my lifereally got started until then.
So I feel like I wasted36 years of my life.
And the conversations I've had fromcoaching men, I know there's a lot of
lost potential because they don't knowhow to navigate emotions and they're
(01:31):
driven away from pain into pleasure.
It's just very, it's veryprimal and very basic.
So my question is, what arethey capable of if they are
not living in their emotions?
So that's, that's one part of it.
(01:51):
And I don't mean to get too dark here.
Um, fathers, well, specificallymen, have ten times the suicide
rates of women after a divorce.
And to me, that's a crisis.
They're, they're feeling likethere's nothing to live for.
Like, , their life has been destroyed.
After I got divorced, um, you know,we didn't have a lot, but, you know,
(02:16):
that was, my house was my castle.
That's where I felt safe.
That's where the peopleI cared about were.
And to have that taken away, um, goingthrough the courts, being called abusive,
, being told I was not a good father,and, um, having a price put on the value
(02:38):
of me as a father, that really sucked.
And I was able to survive it.
Um, it was like an, an FU moment.
I remember where I was like,this is not going to beat me.
And I remember making that decision.
(02:59):
I am not going to let this.
I'm going to let it define me,but I'm not going to let it beat
me because I'm going to fight.
Stacy (03:07):
Can we talk about abuse?
In Australia at the moment, I thinkthe rate is about three women per
week are dying at the hands of theirintimate partner or ex intimate partner.
So I wasn't expecting you to saynaively that the suicide rate of men.
(03:30):
It's 10 times that after goingthrough a divorce, but of
course it makes perfect sense.
Do you think it's a spectrum interms of men handling their emotion
that leads them to becoming abusiveand sometimes physically abusive?
Jeff (03:46):
Spectrum.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Um, some men internalize it andthen one day it just explodes.
I, I, I can't speak for every man.
Um, but yeah, I totallysee it as a spectrum.
Some men.
Go dead inside.
Um, I'm working with one man whosewife is very abusive towards him,
(04:13):
and I know he internalizes that,and then sometimes it explodes.
Not, not physically, but,um, , they yell at each other.
Stacy (04:25):
When you found yourself becoming more and more resentful and bitter, what
were the signs for you that that wasenough and you had to turn things around?
Did
Jeff (04:39):
a panic attack at our new house.
With my now wife.
Um, I just remember , I didn't know if Iwas going to have a heart attack or what.
Um, I didn't know what was goingon and I didn't know how to fix it.
I was in tech for 20 years.
(04:59):
And.
As a programmer, , you're just focusedon making things as logical as possible,
making the, the not logical, logical, andAll of a sudden, a divorce is like the
most emotional thing you can have, and, I'd never had a panic attack before, so
(05:22):
I didn't, I didn't even know what, whatit was, and yeah, I didn't know how to
handle it, and I didn't know what to do.
Um, if I was going to have anotherone and it was preceded by a long
period of depression too, where Ijust didn't want to get out of bed.
(05:42):
And it felt like what Icalled low power mode.
And I thought there must be, itcan't just be this that's, there's
got to be , more to life than this.
There's got to be more of the lifethan being in low power mode and
feeling like crap all the time.
Um, and , I started noticing.
(06:03):
Similar patterns with my, my now wifethat were repeating with the previous one.
That's when I started wiggingon to what was going on.
Stacy (06:16):
that lead to?
Did,
Jeff (06:19):
coach who works with emotions.
She, she had a technique she taughtme on how to release them when I feel
bad, what to do about them, um, andalso taught me that I was being too
reactive in life rather than proactive,um, so rather than choosing the easy
(06:43):
relationship or choosing the easy job,um, that has a way of coming back and
smacking you and teaching you a lesson.
Um, so I, I started to get betterat noticing what emotions came up
as well as I would challenge myself.
(07:06):
I don't want to say that I,that I was, uh, lazy, but I was
probably in a deep depression fora long time leading up to that.
Stacy (07:14):
um, people used to describe you as an easygoing guy?
Jeff (07:19):
Probably yes.
Stacy (07:21):
You didn't rock the boat too much.
You
Jeff (07:23):
No, no.
Stacy (07:24):
of you.
Jeff (07:25):
Yeah.
Yeah.
People pleasing.
Yeah, absolutely.
Stacy (07:28):
And you did the hard work when you had to do it.
Jeff (07:31):
Or didn't.
Stacy (07:33):
Just walked away.
How do you think you were raised?
Who were you supposed to be?
Jeff (07:40):
I was supposed to be a smart kid.
Um, I was supposed to be smart.
I was supposed to be quiet and Iwas supposed to be, um, successful.
How I got there.
I don't know.
Um, I guess I was raised in a timewhen , I didn't get a lot of guidance
(08:03):
into who I was supposed to be.
Stacy (08:05):
So did that mean you were looking at society and the systems
like school, your friendshipcircles, your friends parents?
The media?
Where were you getting anidea of the way to behave?
Or are you even aware of it?
Jeff (08:25):
Oh no, I am movies.
Um, and then I spent a lot of time inmy head I, I think for a long time I
was very robotic and I didn't know howto act and I would replay scenarios
of how I interacted with people.
(08:45):
I probably had horriblesocial anxiety growing up.
Um, and I would replay those, thoseincidents and I would do, you know, I, I
cringe still at some of the things I did.
Um, but a lot of people say thatthat's just, uh, how teenagers are,
but I think I had a lot of socialanxiety and I would compare myself
(09:11):
to how people were acting in movies.
And I would try to try to live up to that.
Stacy (09:18):
is that where you learnt how to date?
Jeff (09:21):
I wasn't very good at dating.
Stacy (09:23):
And you know that because?
, Jeff (09:25):
I don't think I had a successful relationship until after my divorce.
Um, , not successful,that's not the right word.
I don't think I was emotionallyavailable until after my divorce.
I wasn't aware of what I needed to do.
, I wasn't aware of what myrole was in a relationship and
(09:47):
what my partner would want.
Stacy (09:50):
So with the people that you are working with now, as you help them
navigate their way through a divorce,is that normally where they come to you?
Jeff (10:03):
Usually picking them up is, um, the way I visualize it is,
they're walking out of the, outof divorce court down the steps.
And they're like, whatthe hell just happened?
How am I rebuilding my life?
How am I, how am I going to trust again?
How am I going to wait?
(10:23):
How am I going to build a life again?
Stacy (10:25):
So almost a 2.
0 experience.
Jeff (10:28):
That's how I think of it.
Yeah.
Um, there's an opportunity in a 2.
0 experience in that you'retearing everything down or you had
everything turned it torn down.
You had everything removed.
So it's for me, it was kind offreeing as like, Well, that sucked.
(10:49):
What can I, how can I do this much better?
And that's how I, that'show I approached it.
After I, um, after I had that panicattack, um, how could I rebuild better?
What do I actually want in my life?
What kind of relationships do I want?
What kind of career do I want?
So on and so forth.
Stacy (11:09):
And as someone who's very good at recognizing patterns,
what patterns are you seeing?
Um, with the men that you work within terms of , what they need to fix
and how they need to go about it.
Jeff (11:22):
Often they're repeating patterns from relationships,
often they're repeating their,their parents relationships or
how their parents treated them.
Um, and.
Often men shut down , theiremotions, um, and they don't let
(11:43):
, their partner connect with them.
So it almost goes into that subconsciousjust strictly reacting to things.
Stacy (11:52):
And so how do you help them to stop doing that?
Jeff (11:55):
So right now I'm working one on one with them.
Um, I'm launching a programin the next few months , That's
going to have a membership.
So that's, that's still in progress,but one on one what I've been doing
is bringing attention to emotionsand starting to put names to things.
(12:20):
Um, I spoke earlier about mycoach that helped me with emotions.
So I'm working one on one with most ofthem and then as they bring emotions
to the session, we work through theemotion and look for, there's usually a
nugget in there, some piece of wisdom.
(12:40):
Um, we have an emotion because we have ajudgment about something and then we store
that, that emotion inside of ourselves.
But if we can find what thatjudgment is, there's a nugget
of wisdom in there that we can.
In my case, um, I, I had beena very logical person and my ex
(13:04):
wife was a very emotional person.
So that's like oil and water.
The lesson in there was for me to getbetter at, at emotions and naming my
own and, and learning what they are.
What one of the things my, my ex wifedid throughout the process was, um,
(13:26):
she, um, I, and I don't know if thiswas conscious on her part or not, but,
um, she would poke me emotionally.
Like she served me paperwork onmy, on my birthday, um, like legal
paperwork on my birthday and youknow, that ruined the weekend.
(13:46):
She, she took my kids away from me fora summer, um, because we couldn't agree
on, um, parenting time and we couldn'tagree on how much support she received.
Those things, each of them, areopportunities to look inside yourself and
(14:06):
find out what the, what is that weakness,what is that emotion that's coming up,
there's a chink in the armor, where isthat, is that hole, where is that gap,
and then if you can stop reacting tothat, usually people stop poking you
there, or you become non reactive to it,
Stacy (14:30):
Do men find having these one on one sessions confronting,
opening up and becoming vulnerable?
Jeff (14:38):
It's uncomfortable at first.
Um, I've worked with some men who theyhave one session and they never want to
come back, um, because it is very, yeah,you said confronting and that I've had
men who are like, Oh my God, I didn'trealize I had this side of me more.
(14:58):
Um, and then every range in between.
,Stacy: So I imagine that a program, a group program would probably be
quite helpful of ripping off the bandaid that a one on one session is.
Might feel like for some of these guys.
I've done group sessions with men before . Um, yeah.
(15:23):
And you built this camaraderieand brotherhood through it.
Um, and I've, I've experienced menbreaking down and sobbing all the
way to, you know, some, some stoicphilosophical, um, moment where you're
(15:43):
staring out at the lake under thestars next to, uh, , next to a bonfire.
Um, , one of the things I wasmissing was that brotherhood.
I felt like I went through it alone.
Um, the coach I worked with, um,she was great, but she was a woman.
(16:04):
So she didn't know what it waslike to go through as a man.
And she had never beenthrough a divorce like that.
So I think there's someopportunity there to.
Build something thatspeaks directly to men.
Stacy (16:22):
Yeah, I would maybe liken it to an athlete that's had an injury, quite
severe one and has had to work their way.
And if you've never had anythingthat's, that's happened to you and
how would you know what it would take?
Jeff (16:38):
my coach said all of us go through something by the
time we're in our mid thirties.
We all get what shecalls the baseball bat.
Um,
Stacy (16:50):
And how did that make you feel?
Jeff (16:53):
which part, the baseball bat?
Stacy (16:55):
The fact that she said that everybody goes through something.
Jeff (16:59):
Well, it made me feel less alone.
Um, but it was, I think it was alittle too academic for me and I
didn't know going through a divorce.
I was thinking about this earliertoday, going through a divorce, you
don't, uh, I didn't have any friends.
I didn't have any family.
I was the first person inmy family to get a divorce.
Um, , I didn't know what I needed and Ididn't have anybody to speak to about it.
(17:25):
Closest thing I had was a lawyer whowas 500 an hour and you don't want
to, , a lawyer doesn't make for avery good, uh, Therapist or coach.
just say, push it down, get rid of it.
Don't don't show weakness.
Um, so having a coach was, was great.
(17:46):
I just, um, I just wish I had somebody.
Well, I wouldn't, at least I'msorry if you're listening to this.
One of the things I wish I had was a malecoach who went through something similar
who could have told me some of the balls.
Stacy (18:02):
And can you tell me two or three pitfalls of going through this experience?
Jeff (18:08):
Your partner
Stacy (18:09):
it comes to your
Jeff (18:11):
your best friend until she isn't.
And then all of a suddenshe's your worst enemy.
Um, and that relationshipchange is very jarring and I felt
really angry going through it.
Um, and I didn't know how to react.
(18:32):
. She would say things like, we went to acoaching session together, and she, she
said things like, Oh, I still love Jeff,but it's too bad we can't be together.
Yeah, it's confusing.
Um, so that's one.
Um, learning to deal with emotions.
There's going to be timeswhere you are, Embarrassed by
(18:54):
the way you acted in the past.
There's going to be times where youlet start letting go of patterns and,
um, , it becomes super scary because thepattern is comfortable and what happens
when you're outside of that pattern?
Um, getting comfortablewith a new partner.
(19:19):
I have a map on my website Where Isay put your own oxygen mask on first,
meaning help yourself first, um, , andthen bring your kids into the equation
and then bring friends into the equationand then bring a romantic partner in.
Start with yourself put your ownoxygen mask on first Figure out
(19:40):
what your needs are who you arelike coming out of relationship.
You don't know who you are
you identify as half of a, of apartnership and you're no longer
in that relationship anymore.
I'm in Mexico these days.
Um, my kids are, are , almost adultsand that's, that's a weird thing to say.
(20:04):
They're, they're at the point wherethey mostly have their own lives.
I made sure to tell them that therelationship ending was not their fault.
I remember having thatmoment of clarity at least.
Um, there was a couple times I spokebadly about my ex in front of them.
(20:26):
And when I, when I realized that andthe effect it had on my kids and the
relationship, I, I sat down with them andtold them I would never do that again.
I haven't.
Um, I wish, with my kids, um, I thinkour relationship works best when
(20:49):
I'm out kicking ass and conqueringthings and bringing them stories
of, of their dad being awesome.
So I wish I did that more.
Stacy (21:00):
Do you have, , any steps or framework that you ask people to
follow when it comes to their children?
think it's really importantthat children aren't minimized.
During the experience of a divorce,and I wonder what advice you
would give to people that weregoing through that right now.
Jeff (21:24):
it depends on the situation though.
Some dads never see their kids.
Some dads only see their kidsan afternoon, every two weeks.
Some dads, some dads see themone week on and one week off.
So it really depends on the situation.
I can talk about my situation.
Um, my goal, my, strategy was to put mykids into everything that they showed
(21:51):
interest in and then really put theminto whatever resonated with them.
So there was about five years therewe were at where we did nothing but
hockey, um, for, and so I was luckyin that aspect where I was heavily
involved in their, in their lives.
(22:13):
And, um, I was able to have apretty strong influence on them.
On the other side, that's a lottougher and if you're not seeing
your kids a lot, one suggestion Ihave is to take your phone and record
them a video message every day.
(22:35):
Speak to them like they're next to you,record that, put it in a, in a album and
give it to them on their 18th birthday.
Let's you know they're thinking,you're thinking of them and they
can watch it when they want.
Stacy (22:50):
That would be a really amazing gift.
Jeff (22:53):
I think so.
Stacy (22:55):
So if you've gone through the divorce courts, what advice could you
give in relation to co-parenting inthat situation as opposed to if you
were speaking to someone who's ina troubled relationship right now?
Would you give them any advicein terms of establishing things
so they might have a healthier coparenting relationship going forward?
Jeff (23:18):
I don't know that I see a big difference between those two because
you don't know how the relationshipthat's in trouble is going to play out.
Um, , and I'm thinking of oneperson right now in particular.
Um, I can't see how thatrelationship is going to last even
though they live together still.
Stacy (23:38):
So you spoke about your ex and, and how you were quite opposite
in terms of you being logicaland her being very emotional.
And if you want to have a healthyparenting or co parenting relationship,
how can you influence that?
What can you do, you andyour partner or ex partner?
(23:59):
Aren't seeing eye to eye,
Jeff (24:01):
Again, it depends.
, with my case.
It was, um, most, most ofthe issues came down to money.
So specifically with hockey, it's a veryexpensive sport and it's a lot of time.
So, um, I ended up just paying for um,paying for their equipment and everything.
(24:23):
Um, but I knew it was good for them.
And I, and I tried to make the case,but there was probably five years there
where, where I barely spoke to my ex.
I, I locked her on social media and, andfrom texting and we would only communicate
through, um, our family wizard.
Um, it's, really, really tough becauseyou can't have a civil conversation,
(24:50):
how do you have a conversation about,What you're going to do with the kids.
So in that case where you do havethat difficult, um, that difficult
relationship, the strategy Itook was what do I think is
best when they're at my house?
And, and I have a conversationwhere there's something
(25:13):
that might carry through.
Luckily with hockey that workedout and it was very good for them
in that they learned to compete.
Um, they learned to, um, the, the value ofexercise of camaraderie and all of that.
Um, and she saw that my exsaw that as it went along.
Um, but we disagreed , on the money.
(25:39):
So I tried to make that a non issue.
Stacy (25:42):
So trying to incorporate what you were hoping for, for your kid in a
way where your ex could see the results.
Jeff (25:53):
Yes.
Um, the advice I would havefor men is don't dig your heels
in on something like money.
There were times I worked two jobs.
And I just, I did it in orderto make those ends meet so that
(26:15):
my kids could have those things.
So, I don't mean to trivialize money.
That's not what I'm trying to do here.
is, isn't an insurmountable barrier.
And it's so good for the kids andit will be a bonding experience
(26:36):
for you and it's something they'llremember the rest of their lives.
My oldest still plays hockey.
He's, he's almost 18.
Um, you know, he's going to try outfor the hockey team in university.
So hopefully that's alifelong thing for him.
And it's not about hockey making,getting drafted or anything like that.
(26:56):
It's not about a career.
It's about, Um, staying in shape,having that camaraderie, having
that healthy, healthy competition.
Um, leaving the emotions out there, uh,losing with grace and winning with grace.
And he's, and he's had to be inthat position through hockey.
(27:17):
So it's, it's been wellworth the investment.
Stacy (27:21):
And I guess also about creating a village outside of the family structure
that hopefully he can carry through.
Jeff (27:29):
Yeah, absolutely.
And, and he's had, um, he'shad a job offer through that.
And he's, and he's coached otherkids, so it's been such a, a
positive experience for him.
Um, and it carries, it's thisthread that's common between
(27:49):
my ex's house and my house.
Um, so it's that, thatfeeling of certainty.
He knew where he was going to beon Saturday and Sunday mornings.
Stacy (28:00):
Is there a way you'd like to take this conversation or something that you'd
like to talk about that we haven't so far?
.Jeff: One of the pieces of writing I did this week was around how Western society
doesn't have a way to deal with emotions.
(28:21):
And a divorce is, like I said earlier,it's a, it's the most, not maybe
not the most, but one of the mostemotional experiences that you're
going to have in your adult life.
Maybe, maybe next to losing,um, somebody close to you.
(28:41):
Um, and you look at allthese other societies and.
They have these rituals like, likedancing and drumming and, um, some
societies have a psychedelic experience.
Um, I was in a, if I pronounce thiswrong, Temescal, which is, uh, a
(29:04):
Mexican, um, or Maya, um, sweat lodge.
And all of these are ways tohelp you process emotions.
When I came out of that sweatlodge, uh, that was about two,
three weeks ago, I was angry.
I didn't know where that anger came from.
It was like, it's like bubbling up.
I was so angry at it.
Um, and I think in the West we justdon't have anything like that and
(29:30):
then you're thrown into this divorce,, this court and we're completely
lacking the tools to deal with it.
Yeah.
So it seems like othercultures have tools or Rituals.
that help them move through life.
And , for most people in Western culture,we don't, and we're very quick to want
(29:56):
to fix things and to get to the endand that everything's going to be okay.
And for someone that's goingthrough a divorce, it's such
an overwhelming experience.
It would be lovely to tell them thathere are the three to five steps and , if
you complete them, then you're all good.
(30:17):
You'll be healed, butthat's not the case, is it?
What would you like to tell people aboutre crafting or re making a better life?
Jeff (30:30):
It's bloody hard.
Um, there's going to be timeswhere you want to give up.
You just want to go back to your old life.
Um, there's going to be times whereyou feel stripped raw and vulnerable.
But then there's going to be times whereyou feel incredibly, incredibly powerful.
It's, it's a long process.
(30:52):
It doesn't happen overnight, andit takes commitment on your part.
And that commitment,and , bravery, and honesty.
Um, and, a willingness totake responsibility for where
you are, , how you got here.
(31:12):
And I think that's, and that'sthe first step I take when I'm
working with somebody is workingto get them to take responsibility
for how they got there in life.
Doesn't matter what your ex did.
how did you invite thatperson into your life?
That person who, in my case, isgoing to have an affair on you.
(31:33):
Um, and then how do you fix that?
How do you, how do you makesure that doesn't happen again?
Stacy (31:39):
Are there any small steps or rituals?
You would advise someone to practice
Jeff (31:49):
One of the first steps I suggest is meditation, and I run
a meditation on Sunday mornings.
Uh, it's free, come on out,I'll teach you how to meditate.
Meditation helps you to realizethat you are not your emotions,
you are not your thoughts, andthat there's something else there.
Just separates thosethings just a little bit.
(32:10):
When you get that little separation,you can pry it apart and, I think that
gives you hope that there's, there'sa bigger life and a bigger world.
Stacy (32:23):
And that this work really is similar to building muscles..
You have to maintain it.
There's no magic pill.
I mean, I know there are somethings that can help along
the way that shortcuts, but.
For the most part, , it'sthe work you have to put in.
Jeff (32:42):
I've never found a shortcut that, that's worked.
Um, One thing I would suggest againstis seeking out pleasure, and I know
a lot of guys , they seek to escape,um, and they do that through partying,
alcohol, drugs, sex, You know, eating,whatever it is, I highly, highly
(33:07):
suggest staying away from that.
Um, feel those emotions,they're gonna suck.
It's gonna be absolutelyterrible for a while.
Those times where it's bad, that'swhere you're doing the most growth.
Don't resist those emotions.
Stacy (33:24):
What can they do if they're feeling an extreme need for
pleasure and they know it's not theright thing to do in that moment?
Jeff (33:34):
uh, there might have been a time or two where I indulged in
it, and then Maybe they need toindulge in it for, for a little bit.
Um, there were, there were timesI did, , and then I would pay
attention to how I felt after that.
There are times when seeking pleasureis okay, and there are times when
(33:55):
you're seeking pleasure to escape.
And learning to tell the differencebetween those things , is a very,
very key part of this growth.
Um, there's, there's musicfestivals my wife and I go to.
That's seeking pleasure, but if you'regoing to something every single weekend
and getting blasted, then that's notideal because you're probably escaping.
(34:21):
It,
Stacy (34:24):
right now, that might be in the midst of a divorce or wondering
if one is coming up for them.
Can you tell them what lifelooks like on the other side?
, Jeff: I don't want to give you platitudes.
Life is much better here.
Um, when you can separate yourselffrom your thoughts and your emotions,
you can recognize when patterns arecoming through and you can learn
(34:48):
to process them and let them go.
So you're not in the emotion.
Um, one way I like to think of it iswhen you're stuck in an emotion, when
you're stuck in depression, when you're,when you're angry at the world, sort
of like being in a, in a traffic jam.
When you're separated from your, fromyour emotions, you almost sit above the
(35:11):
traffic and you can kind of sip around it.
And, , it's less drainingand less stressful.
Lindsay and I, we have, it's, it's amuch deeper connection, a much richer
connection, um, than I had with my ex.
(35:35):
, we're able to.
, Connect with each other anddoesn't feel disingenuine.
Um, , we don't argue, we don't bicker, um,it feels like a very equal relationship.
But when you're in it,it's really hard, it sucks.
(35:58):
Find brotherhood.
It's out there.
There are other men going throughwhat you're going through.
Work with somebody.
, find somebody who's been there before,who can guide you through those difficult
moments, and then really, really listen.
Take action, and then listen to what,what happened after you took that action.
(36:25):
But take action.
Don't just sit on the couch.
Get uncomfortable, it's going to beuncomfortable, you will get through it,
um, but things won't get better if youdon't start taking action, um, the three
pieces I say are meditation, exercise,and, , brotherhood, and those things,
(36:52):
, that's gonna help you so much, you will
I certainly wasn't taught anything on how to process emotions.
I just ran away fromthem the longest time.
I didn't even understandwhat emotions were until.
After I got divorced probably.
And I know there's a lot of othermen who have similar experiences.
Stacy (00:43):
There are few things in life as devastating as divorce.
Jeff Kollez works with men to helpthem navigate this turbulent period
and emerge stronger to create a life 2.
0.
And during this episode, Jeffshares his first hand experience
along with some practical toolsto make life a little bit better.
Jeff (01:05):
I was 36 when I got divorced.
And I didn't feel like my lifereally got started until then.
So I feel like I wasted36 years of my life.
And the conversations I've had fromcoaching men, I know there's a lot of
lost potential because they don't knowhow to navigate emotions and they're
(01:31):
driven away from pain into pleasure.
It's just very, it's veryprimal and very basic.
So my question is, what arethey capable of if they are
not living in their emotions?
So that's, that's one part of it.
(01:51):
And I don't mean to get too dark here.
Um, fathers, well, specificallymen, have ten times the suicide
rates of women after a divorce.
And to me, that's a crisis.
They're, they're feeling likethere's nothing to live for.
Like, , their life has been destroyed.
After I got divorced, um, you know,we didn't have a lot, but, you know,
(02:16):
that was, my house was my castle.
That's where I felt safe.
That's where the peopleI cared about were.
And to have that taken away, um, goingthrough the courts, being called abusive,
, being told I was not a good father,and, um, having a price put on the value
(02:38):
of me as a father, that really sucked.
And I was able to survive it.
Um, it was like an, an FU moment.
I remember where I was like,this is not going to beat me.
And I remember making that decision.
(02:59):
I am not going to let this.
I'm going to let it define me,but I'm not going to let it beat
me because I'm going to fight.
Stacy (03:07):
Can we talk about abuse?
In Australia at the moment, I thinkthe rate is about three women per
week are dying at the hands of theirintimate partner or ex intimate partner.
So I wasn't expecting you to saynaively that the suicide rate of men.
(03:30):
It's 10 times that after goingthrough a divorce, but of
course it makes perfect sense.
Do you think it's a spectrum interms of men handling their emotion
that leads them to becoming abusiveand sometimes physically abusive?
Jeff (03:46):
Spectrum.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Um, some men internalize it andthen one day it just explodes.
I, I, I can't speak for every man.
Um, but yeah, I totallysee it as a spectrum.
Some men.
Go dead inside.
Um, I'm working with one man whosewife is very abusive towards him,
(04:13):
and I know he internalizes that,and then sometimes it explodes.
Not, not physically, but,um, , they yell at each other.
Stacy (04:25):
When you found yourself becoming more and more resentful and bitter, what
were the signs for you that that wasenough and you had to turn things around?
Did
Jeff (04:39):
a panic attack at our new house.
With my now wife.
Um, I just remember , I didn't know if Iwas going to have a heart attack or what.
Um, I didn't know what was goingon and I didn't know how to fix it.
I was in tech for 20 years.
(04:59):
And.
As a programmer, , you're just focusedon making things as logical as possible,
making the, the not logical, logical, andAll of a sudden, a divorce is like the
most emotional thing you can have, and, I'd never had a panic attack before, so
(05:22):
I didn't, I didn't even know what, whatit was, and yeah, I didn't know how to
handle it, and I didn't know what to do.
Um, if I was going to have anotherone and it was preceded by a long
period of depression too, where Ijust didn't want to get out of bed.
(05:42):
And it felt like what Icalled low power mode.
And I thought there must be, itcan't just be this that's, there's
got to be , more to life than this.
There's got to be more of the lifethan being in low power mode and
feeling like crap all the time.
Um, and , I started noticing.
(06:03):
Similar patterns with my, my now wifethat were repeating with the previous one.
That's when I started wiggingon to what was going on.
Stacy (06:16):
that lead to?
Did,
Jeff (06:19):
coach who works with emotions.
She, she had a technique she taughtme on how to release them when I feel
bad, what to do about them, um, andalso taught me that I was being too
reactive in life rather than proactive,um, so rather than choosing the easy
(06:43):
relationship or choosing the easy job,um, that has a way of coming back and
smacking you and teaching you a lesson.
Um, so I, I started to get betterat noticing what emotions came up
as well as I would challenge myself.
(07:06):
I don't want to say that I,that I was, uh, lazy, but I was
probably in a deep depression fora long time leading up to that.
Stacy (07:14):
um, people used to describe you as an easygoing guy?
Jeff (07:19):
Probably yes.
Stacy (07:21):
You didn't rock the boat too much.
You
Jeff (07:23):
No, no.
Stacy (07:24):
of you.
Jeff (07:25):
Yeah.
Yeah.
People pleasing.
Yeah, absolutely.
Stacy (07:28):
And you did the hard work when you had to do it.
Jeff (07:31):
Or didn't.
Stacy (07:33):
Just walked away.
How do you think you were raised?
Who were you supposed to be?
Jeff (07:40):
I was supposed to be a smart kid.
Um, I was supposed to be smart.
I was supposed to be quiet and Iwas supposed to be, um, successful.
How I got there.
I don't know.
Um, I guess I was raised in a timewhen , I didn't get a lot of guidance
(08:03):
into who I was supposed to be.
Stacy (08:05):
So did that mean you were looking at society and the systems
like school, your friendshipcircles, your friends parents?
The media?
Where were you getting anidea of the way to behave?
Or are you even aware of it?
Jeff (08:25):
Oh no, I am movies.
Um, and then I spent a lot of time inmy head I, I think for a long time I
was very robotic and I didn't know howto act and I would replay scenarios
of how I interacted with people.
(08:45):
I probably had horriblesocial anxiety growing up.
Um, and I would replay those, thoseincidents and I would do, you know, I, I
cringe still at some of the things I did.
Um, but a lot of people say thatthat's just, uh, how teenagers are,
but I think I had a lot of socialanxiety and I would compare myself
(09:11):
to how people were acting in movies.
And I would try to try to live up to that.
Stacy (09:18):
is that where you learnt how to date?
Jeff (09:21):
I wasn't very good at dating.
Stacy (09:23):
And you know that because?
, Jeff (09:25):
I don't think I had a successful relationship until after my divorce.
Um, , not successful,that's not the right word.
I don't think I was emotionallyavailable until after my divorce.
I wasn't aware of what I needed to do.
, I wasn't aware of what myrole was in a relationship and
(09:47):
what my partner would want.
Stacy (09:50):
So with the people that you are working with now, as you help them
navigate their way through a divorce,is that normally where they come to you?
Jeff (10:03):
Usually picking them up is, um, the way I visualize it is,
they're walking out of the, outof divorce court down the steps.
And they're like, whatthe hell just happened?
How am I rebuilding my life?
How am I, how am I going to trust again?
How am I going to wait?
(10:23):
How am I going to build a life again?
Stacy (10:25):
So almost a 2.
0 experience.
Jeff (10:28):
That's how I think of it.
Yeah.
Um, there's an opportunity in a 2.
0 experience in that you'retearing everything down or you had
everything turned it torn down.
You had everything removed.
So it's for me, it was kind offreeing as like, Well, that sucked.
(10:49):
What can I, how can I do this much better?
And that's how I, that'show I approached it.
After I, um, after I had that panicattack, um, how could I rebuild better?
What do I actually want in my life?
What kind of relationships do I want?
What kind of career do I want?
So on and so forth.
Stacy (11:09):
And as someone who's very good at recognizing patterns,
what patterns are you seeing?
Um, with the men that you work within terms of , what they need to fix
and how they need to go about it.
Jeff (11:22):
Often they're repeating patterns from relationships,
often they're repeating their,their parents relationships or
how their parents treated them.
Um, and.
Often men shut down , theiremotions, um, and they don't let
(11:43):
, their partner connect with them.
So it almost goes into that subconsciousjust strictly reacting to things.
Stacy (11:52):
And so how do you help them to stop doing that?
Jeff (11:55):
So right now I'm working one on one with them.
Um, I'm launching a programin the next few months , That's
going to have a membership.
So that's, that's still in progress,but one on one what I've been doing
is bringing attention to emotionsand starting to put names to things.
(12:20):
Um, I spoke earlier about mycoach that helped me with emotions.
So I'm working one on one with most ofthem and then as they bring emotions
to the session, we work through theemotion and look for, there's usually a
nugget in there, some piece of wisdom.
(12:40):
Um, we have an emotion because we have ajudgment about something and then we store
that, that emotion inside of ourselves.
But if we can find what thatjudgment is, there's a nugget
of wisdom in there that we can.
In my case, um, I, I had beena very logical person and my ex
(13:04):
wife was a very emotional person.
So that's like oil and water.
The lesson in there was for me to getbetter at, at emotions and naming my
own and, and learning what they are.
What one of the things my, my ex wifedid throughout the process was, um,
(13:26):
she, um, I, and I don't know if thiswas conscious on her part or not, but,
um, she would poke me emotionally.
Like she served me paperwork onmy, on my birthday, um, like legal
paperwork on my birthday and youknow, that ruined the weekend.
(13:46):
She, she took my kids away from me fora summer, um, because we couldn't agree
on, um, parenting time and we couldn'tagree on how much support she received.
Those things, each of them, areopportunities to look inside yourself and
(14:06):
find out what the, what is that weakness,what is that emotion that's coming up,
there's a chink in the armor, where isthat, is that hole, where is that gap,
and then if you can stop reacting tothat, usually people stop poking you
there, or you become non reactive to it,
Stacy (14:30):
Do men find having these one on one sessions confronting,
opening up and becoming vulnerable?
Jeff (14:38):
It's uncomfortable at first.
Um, I've worked with some men who theyhave one session and they never want to
come back, um, because it is very, yeah,you said confronting and that I've had
men who are like, Oh my God, I didn'trealize I had this side of me more.
(14:58):
Um, and then every range in between.
,Stacy: So I imagine that a program, a group program would probably be
quite helpful of ripping off the bandaid that a one on one session is.
Might feel like for some of these guys.
I've done group sessions with men before . Um, yeah.
(15:23):
And you built this camaraderieand brotherhood through it.
Um, and I've, I've experienced menbreaking down and sobbing all the
way to, you know, some, some stoicphilosophical, um, moment where you're
(15:43):
staring out at the lake under thestars next to, uh, , next to a bonfire.
Um, , one of the things I wasmissing was that brotherhood.
I felt like I went through it alone.
Um, the coach I worked with, um,she was great, but she was a woman.
(16:04):
So she didn't know what it waslike to go through as a man.
And she had never beenthrough a divorce like that.
So I think there's someopportunity there to.
Build something thatspeaks directly to men.
Stacy (16:22):
Yeah, I would maybe liken it to an athlete that's had an injury, quite
severe one and has had to work their way.
And if you've never had anythingthat's, that's happened to you and
how would you know what it would take?
Jeff (16:38):
my coach said all of us go through something by the
time we're in our mid thirties.
We all get what shecalls the baseball bat.
Um,
Stacy (16:50):
And how did that make you feel?
Jeff (16:53):
which part, the baseball bat?
Stacy (16:55):
The fact that she said that everybody goes through something.
Jeff (16:59):
Well, it made me feel less alone.
Um, but it was, I think it was alittle too academic for me and I
didn't know going through a divorce.
I was thinking about this earliertoday, going through a divorce, you
don't, uh, I didn't have any friends.
I didn't have any family.
I was the first person inmy family to get a divorce.
Um, , I didn't know what I needed and Ididn't have anybody to speak to about it.
(17:25):
Closest thing I had was a lawyer whowas 500 an hour and you don't want
to, , a lawyer doesn't make for avery good, uh, Therapist or coach.
just say, push it down, get rid of it.
Don't don't show weakness.
Um, so having a coach was, was great.
(17:46):
I just, um, I just wish I had somebody.
Well, I wouldn't, at least I'msorry if you're listening to this.
One of the things I wish I had was a malecoach who went through something similar
who could have told me some of the balls.
Stacy (18:02):
And can you tell me two or three pitfalls of going through this experience?
Jeff (18:08):
Your partner
Stacy (18:09):
it comes to your
Jeff (18:11):
your best friend until she isn't.
And then all of a suddenshe's your worst enemy.
Um, and that relationshipchange is very jarring and I felt
really angry going through it.
Um, and I didn't know how to react.
(18:32):
. She would say things like, we went to acoaching session together, and she, she
said things like, Oh, I still love Jeff,but it's too bad we can't be together.
Yeah, it's confusing.
Um, so that's one.
Um, learning to deal with emotions.
There's going to be timeswhere you are, Embarrassed by
(18:54):
the way you acted in the past.
There's going to be times where youlet start letting go of patterns and,
um, , it becomes super scary because thepattern is comfortable and what happens
when you're outside of that pattern?
Um, getting comfortablewith a new partner.
(19:19):
I have a map on my website Where Isay put your own oxygen mask on first,
meaning help yourself first, um, , andthen bring your kids into the equation
and then bring friends into the equationand then bring a romantic partner in.
Start with yourself put your ownoxygen mask on first Figure out
(19:40):
what your needs are who you arelike coming out of relationship.
You don't know who you are
you identify as half of a, of apartnership and you're no longer
in that relationship anymore.
I'm in Mexico these days.
Um, my kids are, are , almost adultsand that's, that's a weird thing to say.
(20:04):
They're, they're at the point wherethey mostly have their own lives.
I made sure to tell them that therelationship ending was not their fault.
I remember having thatmoment of clarity at least.
Um, there was a couple times I spokebadly about my ex in front of them.
(20:26):
And when I, when I realized that andthe effect it had on my kids and the
relationship, I, I sat down with them andtold them I would never do that again.
I haven't.
Um, I wish, with my kids, um, I thinkour relationship works best when
(20:49):
I'm out kicking ass and conqueringthings and bringing them stories
of, of their dad being awesome.
So I wish I did that more.
Stacy (21:00):
Do you have, , any steps or framework that you ask people to
follow when it comes to their children?
think it's really importantthat children aren't minimized.
During the experience of a divorce,and I wonder what advice you
would give to people that weregoing through that right now.
Jeff (21:24):
it depends on the situation though.
Some dads never see their kids.
Some dads only see their kidsan afternoon, every two weeks.
Some dads, some dads see themone week on and one week off.
So it really depends on the situation.
I can talk about my situation.
Um, my goal, my, strategy was to put mykids into everything that they showed
(21:51):
interest in and then really put theminto whatever resonated with them.
So there was about five years therewe were at where we did nothing but
hockey, um, for, and so I was luckyin that aspect where I was heavily
involved in their, in their lives.
(22:13):
And, um, I was able to have apretty strong influence on them.
On the other side, that's a lottougher and if you're not seeing
your kids a lot, one suggestion Ihave is to take your phone and record
them a video message every day.
(22:35):
Speak to them like they're next to you,record that, put it in a, in a album and
give it to them on their 18th birthday.
Let's you know they're thinking,you're thinking of them and they
can watch it when they want.
Stacy (22:50):
That would be a really amazing gift.
Jeff (22:53):
I think so.
Stacy (22:55):
So if you've gone through the divorce courts, what advice could you
give in relation to co-parenting inthat situation as opposed to if you
were speaking to someone who's ina troubled relationship right now?
Would you give them any advicein terms of establishing things
so they might have a healthier coparenting relationship going forward?
Jeff (23:18):
I don't know that I see a big difference between those two because
you don't know how the relationshipthat's in trouble is going to play out.
Um, , and I'm thinking of oneperson right now in particular.
Um, I can't see how thatrelationship is going to last even
though they live together still.
Stacy (23:38):
So you spoke about your ex and, and how you were quite opposite
in terms of you being logicaland her being very emotional.
And if you want to have a healthyparenting or co parenting relationship,
how can you influence that?
What can you do, you andyour partner or ex partner?
(23:59):
Aren't seeing eye to eye,
Jeff (24:01):
Again, it depends.
, with my case.
It was, um, most, most ofthe issues came down to money.
So specifically with hockey, it's a veryexpensive sport and it's a lot of time.
So, um, I ended up just paying for um,paying for their equipment and everything.
(24:23):
Um, but I knew it was good for them.
And I, and I tried to make the case,but there was probably five years there
where, where I barely spoke to my ex.
I, I locked her on social media and, andfrom texting and we would only communicate
through, um, our family wizard.
Um, it's, really, really tough becauseyou can't have a civil conversation,
(24:50):
how do you have a conversation about,What you're going to do with the kids.
So in that case where you do havethat difficult, um, that difficult
relationship, the strategy Itook was what do I think is
best when they're at my house?
And, and I have a conversationwhere there's something
(25:13):
that might carry through.
Luckily with hockey that workedout and it was very good for them
in that they learned to compete.
Um, they learned to, um, the, the value ofexercise of camaraderie and all of that.
Um, and she saw that my exsaw that as it went along.
Um, but we disagreed , on the money.
(25:39):
So I tried to make that a non issue.
Stacy (25:42):
So trying to incorporate what you were hoping for, for your kid in a
way where your ex could see the results.
Jeff (25:53):
Yes.
Um, the advice I would havefor men is don't dig your heels
in on something like money.
There were times I worked two jobs.
And I just, I did it in orderto make those ends meet so that
(26:15):
my kids could have those things.
So, I don't mean to trivialize money.
That's not what I'm trying to do here.
is, isn't an insurmountable barrier.
And it's so good for the kids andit will be a bonding experience
(26:36):
for you and it's something they'llremember the rest of their lives.
My oldest still plays hockey.
He's, he's almost 18.
Um, you know, he's going to try outfor the hockey team in university.
So hopefully that's alifelong thing for him.
And it's not about hockey making,getting drafted or anything like that.
(26:56):
It's not about a career.
It's about, Um, staying in shape,having that camaraderie, having
that healthy, healthy competition.
Um, leaving the emotions out there, uh,losing with grace and winning with grace.
And he's, and he's had to be inthat position through hockey.
(27:17):
So it's, it's been wellworth the investment.
Stacy (27:21):
And I guess also about creating a village outside of the family structure
that hopefully he can carry through.
Jeff (27:29):
Yeah, absolutely.
And, and he's had, um, he'shad a job offer through that.
And he's, and he's coached otherkids, so it's been such a, a
positive experience for him.
Um, and it carries, it's thisthread that's common between
(27:49):
my ex's house and my house.
Um, so it's that, thatfeeling of certainty.
He knew where he was going to beon Saturday and Sunday mornings.
Stacy (28:00):
Is there a way you'd like to take this conversation or something that you'd
like to talk about that we haven't so far?
.Jeff: One of the pieces of writing I did this week was around how Western society
doesn't have a way to deal with emotions.
(28:21):
And a divorce is, like I said earlier,it's a, it's the most, not maybe
not the most, but one of the mostemotional experiences that you're
going to have in your adult life.
Maybe, maybe next to losing,um, somebody close to you.
(28:41):
Um, and you look at allthese other societies and.
They have these rituals like, likedancing and drumming and, um, some
societies have a psychedelic experience.
Um, I was in a, if I pronounce thiswrong, Temescal, which is, uh, a
(29:04):
Mexican, um, or Maya, um, sweat lodge.
And all of these are ways tohelp you process emotions.
When I came out of that sweatlodge, uh, that was about two,
three weeks ago, I was angry.
I didn't know where that anger came from.
It was like, it's like bubbling up.
I was so angry at it.
Um, and I think in the West we justdon't have anything like that and
(29:30):
then you're thrown into this divorce,, this court and we're completely
lacking the tools to deal with it.
Yeah.
So it seems like othercultures have tools or Rituals.
that help them move through life.
And , for most people in Western culture,we don't, and we're very quick to want
(29:56):
to fix things and to get to the endand that everything's going to be okay.
And for someone that's goingthrough a divorce, it's such
an overwhelming experience.
It would be lovely to tell them thathere are the three to five steps and , if
you complete them, then you're all good.
(30:17):
You'll be healed, butthat's not the case, is it?
What would you like to tell people aboutre crafting or re making a better life?
Jeff (30:30):
It's bloody hard.
Um, there's going to be timeswhere you want to give up.
You just want to go back to your old life.
Um, there's going to be times whereyou feel stripped raw and vulnerable.
But then there's going to be times whereyou feel incredibly, incredibly powerful.
It's, it's a long process.
(30:52):
It doesn't happen overnight, andit takes commitment on your part.
And that commitment,and , bravery, and honesty.
Um, and, a willingness totake responsibility for where
you are, , how you got here.
(31:12):
And I think that's, and that'sthe first step I take when I'm
working with somebody is workingto get them to take responsibility
for how they got there in life.
Doesn't matter what your ex did.
how did you invite thatperson into your life?
That person who, in my case, isgoing to have an affair on you.
(31:33):
Um, and then how do you fix that?
How do you, how do you makesure that doesn't happen again?
Stacy (31:39):
Are there any small steps or rituals?
You would advise someone to practice
Jeff (31:49):
One of the first steps I suggest is meditation, and I run
a meditation on Sunday mornings.
Uh, it's free, come on out,I'll teach you how to meditate.
Meditation helps you to realizethat you are not your emotions,
you are not your thoughts, andthat there's something else there.
Just separates thosethings just a little bit.
(32:10):
When you get that little separation,you can pry it apart and, I think that
gives you hope that there's, there'sa bigger life and a bigger world.
Stacy (32:23):
And that this work really is similar to building muscles..
You have to maintain it.
There's no magic pill.
I mean, I know there are somethings that can help along
the way that shortcuts, but.
For the most part, , it'sthe work you have to put in.
Jeff (32:42):
I've never found a shortcut that, that's worked.
Um, One thing I would suggest againstis seeking out pleasure, and I know
a lot of guys , they seek to escape,um, and they do that through partying,
alcohol, drugs, sex, You know, eating,whatever it is, I highly, highly
(33:07):
suggest staying away from that.
Um, feel those emotions,they're gonna suck.
It's gonna be absolutelyterrible for a while.
Those times where it's bad, that'swhere you're doing the most growth.
Don't resist those emotions.
Stacy (33:24):
What can they do if they're feeling an extreme need for
pleasure and they know it's not theright thing to do in that moment?
Jeff (33:34):
uh, there might have been a time or two where I indulged in
it, and then Maybe they need toindulge in it for, for a little bit.
Um, there were, there were timesI did, , and then I would pay
attention to how I felt after that.
There are times when seeking pleasureis okay, and there are times when
(33:55):
you're seeking pleasure to escape.
And learning to tell the differencebetween those things , is a very,
very key part of this growth.
Um, there's, there's musicfestivals my wife and I go to.
That's seeking pleasure, but if you'regoing to something every single weekend
and getting blasted, then that's notideal because you're probably escaping.
(34:21):
It,
Stacy (34:24):
right now, that might be in the midst of a divorce or wondering
if one is coming up for them.
Can you tell them what lifelooks like on the other side?
, Jeff: I don't want to give you platitudes.
Life is much better here.
Um, when you can separate yourselffrom your thoughts and your emotions,
you can recognize when patterns arecoming through and you can learn
(34:48):
to process them and let them go.
So you're not in the emotion.
Um, one way I like to think of it iswhen you're stuck in an emotion, when
you're stuck in depression, when you're,when you're angry at the world, sort
of like being in a, in a traffic jam.
When you're separated from your, fromyour emotions, you almost sit above the
(35:11):
traffic and you can kind of sip around it.
And, , it's less drainingand less stressful.
Lindsay and I, we have, it's, it's amuch deeper connection, a much richer
connection, um, than I had with my ex.
(35:35):
, we're able to.
, Connect with each other anddoesn't feel disingenuine.
Um, , we don't argue, we don't bicker, um,it feels like a very equal relationship.
But when you're in it,it's really hard, it sucks.
(35:58):
Find brotherhood.
It's out there.
There are other men going throughwhat you're going through.
Work with somebody.
, find somebody who's been there before,who can guide you through those difficult
moments, and then really, really listen.
Take action, and then listen to what,what happened after you took that action.
(36:25):
But take action.
Don't just sit on the couch.
Get uncomfortable, it's going to beuncomfortable, you will get through it,
um, but things won't get better if youdon't start taking action, um, the three
pieces I say are meditation, exercise,and, , brotherhood, and those things,
(36:52):
, that's gonna help you so much, you will
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