July 2, 2024 • 43 mins
In this episode Thomas is joined by Christopher Jones to discus what it's like for UK GPs to live and work in Australia.
This is a teaser for our new podcast series Ticket to Aus, so if you enjoyed it, keep your eyes peeled for more episodes to come.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:03):
Welcome, everybody.
Thank you for tuning in todayand obviously watching our podcast.
In today's podcast, we’re going to beexploring a life down under;
So what working as a GP in Australia is like;And we're very fortunate
to have a really prominent GPfrom Australia, a chap called Chris Jones
who has actually made the transitionfrom the UK into Australia
(00:24):
Coming up now about 16 years, right,Chris?
Yes, I arrived on the 1st of August 2008with my family.
So yes, 16 years, long time.
Wow. Wow.
And now what myself andChris are going to be covering today is
we're going to be going througha little bit around obviously
what working in Australiais like for individuals,
(00:45):
you know, what to really expect.
Kind of giving a bit of a comprehensiveoverview on working as a GP,
partly touching into some of the lifestyle, we’ll go through some of the health care system itself,
and obviously things to kind of considerand the benefits, obviously, of working
in Australia.
in Australia.
So, to kind of start with
So, to kind of start with
So, to kind of start with
So, to kind of start with
obviously, Chris, you mentioned that youmade that transition, coming up 16 years.
(01:08):
So, obviously, with your family.
I guess it's worthwhile asking,you know, really
what kind of led you to make that move?
You know, what actually caused youto think Australia’s going to be right for me,
I want to leave the UK?
Yeah, so I was in the NHS, I qualifiedway back in 86 in London,
and I was a GP in Pooleas a partner for seven years
when I made the movewith my wife and kids.
(01:30):
And at the time they were sixand seven when we moved over.
So the year before,
the NHS had been struggling more and more.
I was working harder.
Treading water and getting, disillusionedis a polite way of putting it,
and I was looking at different options and I've always,
I've been to Australia on holiday a few times
(01:52):
and I've always liked or enviedthe relaxed and outdoor lifestyle.
So we made the move and applied for a jobthrough a recruitment agency
to move to Australia.
So that was that was back in 2007
September, and I was in position
(02:12):
by the 1st of August 2008.
Wow. Wow.
It turns out there's a lot of reasons.
Obviously, as you say,the health care system in the UK was
struggling a little bit.
Obviously if we compare that to to now.
I think there's a lot of people that arein that same position, that are thinking,
you know, things have got slightly worse,
(02:34):
to be polite, as you say,and you know,
they're also now thinking about, you know,making that transition themselves.
So I think this is going to be areally good insight for them
to obviously be able to tune in
and find out, obviously, a little bit more onwhy they should make that move.
Yeah.
And Chris, obviously,one thing I would like to ask is,
you know, any regrets, you know,in regards to making this move?
(02:55):
You know, has Australiabeen the right thing for you?
Oh for sure, I mean, I'dlike to have done it earlier,
but my kids were very small
and my family wanted us to staylocal in the south of England.
So no, it was the right time for allof us to make the move really.
Yeah.
Wow. Wow.
(03:17):
So I guess, obviously, a lot of the questionsthat our listeners will kind of have
is really, what is itlike being in Australia?
What is itlike working as a GP in Australia
and how does it differto things in the UK?
So, you know, if you're happy,
just to give us a bit of an overview,a bit of a view on what
your working days are like, you know,what working in Australia is like as well.
So I'm full time.
(03:39):
I work in a ten man practice.
We used to have trainees,but we don't have them anymore
and all of the GP who I work with,
some are part time, some full time,some work in other areas as well,
and, as I said, I work full time.
I'm contracted for 45 hoursa week, 40 weeks a year,
which means I take12 weeks leave a year
(04:04):
which is slightly morethan I had back in the UK.
But the good side is that I work hardand play hard and travel lots.
The downside is in that 12 weeks,because I'm not seeing patients,
there's no money coming in.
So you have to weigh up the the moneythat you're earning while you work
against the money you’renot taking in when you're
traveling or on holiday
(04:25):
but I work very flexibly.
As I said, I'm full time.
So my week is, I work Monday...
Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday,Thursday, Friday and Saturday morning.
I start work at half six in the morning,which is quite weird for people in
in the UK.
But 6:30am to 1:00pm on Monday to Thursday.
(04:47):
So I'm seeing patients allthat time, and then
Monday, Wednesday and Thursday,I come back at four till eight.
Oh wow. So breaking up your days completely In that case.
And then Friday,
I come in at 10:00 in the morning ‘till 1:00,
three hours,
and Saturday I do 6:30 to 11:00.
So on my afternoons,every afternoon
(05:10):
I’m either on a half day or I'm off.
I'm quite sporty so I’ll either bedown at the beach kitesurfing,
swimming, running or with my wife
and it works well for mebecause I tend to work hard
when I'm seeing peopleand then I can quite relax,
I can take three or 4 hours offin the middle of the day,
(05:31):
do what I want to do, and then come backquite happy to see the evening shift.
And that works well for myself, my wifeand my family because it keeps me happy,
keeps them happy as well.
Yeah, of course.
And it provides a better work life balanceultimately as well, doesn't it, for yourself?
Yeah. I mean some people...I don't play golf,
but some people love playing golf.
So if you're a golfer you could play golfas much as you wanted,
(05:53):
other people like horseridingor just chilling with the family.
As I say, I love sportsand travel, so it does work
well for me because that combination,I don't get bored, I don't get tired.
And I actually look forwardto going to work, which,
you know, having been a GP for so longnow, not many people,
(06:15):
certainly back in the UK, who I talk to, can say“Listen I'm looking forward to coming to work tomorrow”.
You know, there's a challenge there and the patients arethe same as are in the UK.
We’re all the same, they’re rich and poor,young and old, the usual mix.
And in our center, of the ten doctors,
six are Filipino,
(06:37):
two are English,
myself and the other chap,
and then we've got the token Australian,
one Australian doctor and an Irish doctor.
So yeah, so it's very varied.
And the team, we’ve got three nurses, two ofwhich are ENs and ones an RN.
And we've got in-house phlebotomy from 7am till 3pm,
(07:00):
Monday to Friday with two for phlebotomists.
Wow.
So we have quite anintensive team.
But we don't have, which I miss from the UK,
we don't have health visitorsand we don't have district nurses.
Okay.
So that's a difference,
a different structure.
District nurses are sort of private fund, thatif you need district nursing care
(07:23):
you have to pay for, which isn't greatand the health visiting system
is clinic based and there isn't very muchcommunication
back with the family doctor,which is, you know, a shame,
but the way it happens.
Yes, yeah, it's just slightlydifferent to the way
things are here in the UK.
But it sounds like you're surrounded by,you know, a great team.
(07:45):
A very experience team.
Yeah, well the other thing is that all the...
the doctors and the nurses and the admin,they've been there a long time.
There's not a great turnover of staff,except for retirement or pregnancy.
You know, people stay.
I've been, as I say,I've been there 16 years.
One doctor’s been24 years in the same clinic.
Wow.
(08:05):
So, you know, that’s all good.
That's got to show somethingto job satisfaction ultimately as well.
It dose, yeah.
That doesn't happenreally in the UK too much.
Sure.
So yeah, wow,as you say, it sounds like it's a big,
you know, diverse of patientsthat you see as well.
As you mentioned obviously from, you know,
(08:26):
slightly less well off andyou know, very, very wealthy.
Well I think that’s the same as, you know,if you're in any...
any big town, because I'm on the Gold Coast.
So you've probably heardof Surfers Paradise.
I'm 10km north of that,
so it's a big town, big city,
and you have thatwhole range of people.
Yes.
(08:47):
No, completely get that.
And one thing that we...
you know I've personaly experiencedas well, is obviously the
the admin technology,the actual kind of facilities
that are inside a medical centerin Australia.
You know, we call the medical centersrather than just a GP practice.
Yeah, Yeah.
Are you able to elaborate a little bit more aboutthat on a first hand level for some of our listeners.
(09:09):
Yeah, okay, so we're paperless,but even so,
even though we're paperless I go through aream of paper every week, which is annoying but
I type up my notes obviously,and all my referrals,
if it's the public sector,they're on the template
to the public systemand you can't proceed with
sending the referraluntil all the boxes are ticked.
(09:31):
So you have to include pathology,the relevant history,
before you can actually send it,
and then you send it to
which ever hospitle you’re going to,you get an email back saying
it's been received and the patient getsa text the following morning saying
the GP’s refer you to the service, it's being triaged,
you'll hear within fivedays about the outcome.
(09:53):
Okay.
So that's one thing.
So it’s alot quicker in that case.
Yeah, there's a much better useof the private sector here.
So if you've got, let's say a hernia,
you've got a herniathat needs repairing,
I’ll then say, you know,we’ll refer you, do you want to go public or private?
and about a third ofpeople say “I’ll go privately”.
(10:14):
Now, to go privately,
you don't have to have private insurance.
You can actually payhowever much it costs.
But I think about 20%
of people have private insurance.
So the NHS in Australia is called Medicare
and that's free at the point of service,like the health service.
(10:34):
So doctors are paid by Medicare
and that's called bulk billing.
And because of my views, my leftwing views about health,
I bulk bill all my patients so other doctors,
GP and specialist for privately chargeso they get whatever the money for the
for the service of private Medicare let's,say $100 they'll charge another $100.
(10:58):
So there's this thing called a gap.
Yeah.
So with, with the referrals,if I send you to the private sector
and you've got private healthcover, you pay a top up.
But if you don't have private cover,you pay the full thing.
Okay.
So it’s a bit novel towhat I've been used to in the UK,
(11:20):
but it works, and we've gotthe same type of problems
as the health service, withwaiting lists in the public sector.
Yeah, referrals have categorized triageinto one, two and three,
so one is life threatening or cancers,two’s urgent, and three is routine.
So let's say you need a hip replacement,
and I send you publicly, you could beon the waiting list for three years,
(11:44):
which is, you know, not good.
And that all depends also onwhat catchment area you’re in.
So if you're in a large citywith lots of hospitals, it could be lower.
But I think that the...
the public sector hospitals,they’re good, they’re well staffed
most of the junior/middlegrades are all English or Irish.
(12:06):
So menny of them doing their rotations
to get specialist qualifications and
I think that the the overall satisfaction
with the public sector comparedwith what it is in the UK is higher.
I might be biased because I'vebeen here for so long now,
I think you’re bang on,obviously, with that
(12:27):
because even the servicesthat are offered as well,
you know, there's a wide range of servicesthat are facilitated by GPs
that aren't dealt with by GPshere in the UK...
Yeah, well I do a lot of breast cancer work...
...like pathology and radiology and things isn't there?
Well I was going to say I do a lot of breastcancer work and, if I saw a lady
in the UK with a breast lump or a suspectedbreast lump, the old approach was,
(12:51):
I'd have to do a referral to the hospitalwithin 24 hours as a suspected cancer
and the hospital would have to seethe lady within two weeks I think.
And then the both starts rolling slowly.
But if she comes to me here,
I'll get her imaging mammogramand ultrasound,
and that's no fee for most centers.
(13:12):
If it's negative, it's all happy days.
If it's positive, I'll explain that
she needs a biopsy, which is again,I refer to the same center a few days later.
Okay.
And if the histology comes backas positive for cancer,
I then request a staging CT
so that we can then sit, have a chat,sit down together and say, okay,
(13:34):
you've got a breast cancer,it's this type of cancer, it's localized.
Now we need to send yousee a specialist to do their bit.
And what would you like to do,again public or private.
Now if you go to public sectorwith cancer, brilliant service.
If you go to the private sector,
equally brilliant service.
So as a GP, I can reallysort out the patient
(13:58):
before they go and see the hospitalspecialist, which is great satisfaction
because you know you feelmuch more involved with the...
the patient and then when she's come backfrom her surgery or starts her radiotherapy,
you then sort oftake part in the aftercare,
which to me is good because I love it.
Yeah.
You're lot more e lot more involvedaren't you in Australia?
(14:20):
You know, in comparison to here
And you can facilitateand actually look after,
you know, a patient to itto a much higher kind of standard.
I guess that's why Australia is rankedas a top three healthcare systems
globally, to start with.
But you are able to kind of look afterthe patient, you know, that gives you that
better job satisfaction, but you know,that better patient care at the same time.
(14:41):
Yeah, and I think it's allabout speed as well.
You can get things done,
you know, you have to be pushy sometimesto get tests done and make phone calls,
but if you're keen to get involved
in care, you justmove things along.
Yes. Yes.
That's one thing that I'veexperienced as well first hand,
is that... obviously, depending onthe practice... but some of these practices,
(15:01):
they've got the ability of gettingsomebody in, having, you know,
lets say blood that'staken and having the results,
you know, almost turned aroundvery quickly
to, you know, get the results back with,you know,
sometimes even within a matterof hours, aren't they!
That’s kind of normal so...
I mean, for our bloods, if I do
a set of bloods, and you’re now 60, and we’regoing to do your routine annual bloods,
(15:23):
your cholesterol, get prostate, whatever,the liver and kidneys,
I'll see you today.
So we need to do a fasting blood test.
If you fasted, that's great it today.
If you haven't tomorrow and then I’ll say“I'll phone you in two days time with results”
so I’ll book you for phone consultationwhich Medicare will pay me for.
(15:46):
And I'll talk about results
I get them, I’ll give you a call and then,telephone consultation, discuss results
and any management or treatment needed.
So you can get everythinggoing so much faster.
Yes. Yes.
And that's
these little things like thatthat stand out a lot.
(16:06):
You know, in comparison to here in the UK, youknow, last time I went for bloods myself, I think it was
maybe five, six weeksbefore the results even came through.
You know, I'd actually forgotten thatI even had bloods taken when the
Doctor called me up.
I was, you know, it'sjust it's a long process where obviously
in Australia things can be donea lot more kind of proactively.
But the thing is withthe results follow up,
(16:30):
especially with COVID, when COVID came,
we couldn't see patients for threeor six months and everything
was done on the phone and there was a...a fee was paid for these phone calls.
And now I do about... I’m just looking at my bits today,
So this week I've seen 162 patients
made 31 phone calls this week,and that's kind of an average week.
(16:50):
So 31 phone calls and Medicare pay me
for these phone calls, which is good care,
and I'm being paid for it.
So I don't mind doing it.
Of course,
of course. Wow.
Well, that's it'svery different to the UK
and I think we'll
(17:11):
we'll come onto the earningsand the way that the earnings are kind of
overall kind of work out injust a couple of minutes
but I guess from where we’re up too,and while we're talking about, you know,
working as a GP, it will be worthwhilejust asking you to kind of get us through.
I know you've given us a couple of best
about the hours,but just run through a typical day
for yourself, for example,or maybe just a general for a GP.
(17:34):
So as I say
my first patientsbooked at half six,
because I love getting up in the morning, and when Iget up at five I take the dog out or whatever.
So first patients at half six most clinicslocally
will open at eight but ourplace opens at 6:30
and three of us are working at that time.
And our nurse comes in at 7:00.
So I've got my book patients now.
(17:57):
As I said, I bulk bill all my patientsbecause my views on access to
good quality health care,which I have to pay extra for.
And so 90% of mypatients are regulars.
So they’re known to myselfmainly and or the other doctors there.
So we have all their numbers.
We do accept walk ins and again,
(18:19):
we don't mind havinga walk in, an extra patient
because again that attracts...when you're working, you don't mind
working if you’re being paid for it.
What you don't likedoing is doing a job finishing a job.
And there are four more patientsin the waiting room.
You want to go home,
but if you're actually being paid for it,you don't mind so much.
So anyway, so get in 2 minutes beforeI have to start work.
(18:41):
I've got to get my first patient in. And
the notes are good because there'sa summary sheet with the major things
that he or she's got wrong with themand hopefully the last consultation
I did or the other doctordid will tell me what we're doing today.
Unless it's a new problem and I workthrough till 1:00, which is a long time.
(19:04):
But when you, when you know
they're going to be away at one to doother stuff it’s fine for me.
I then finish that one.
I'll go away and either don't come backor come back at 4:00.
So like I say, I do lots of sports,so I like to be on the beach
surfing, swimming or runningor meeting my wife for lunch.
And then 4:00I come back and work through till eight,
(19:27):
three days a week and go homeand one thing is, I don't bring work home.
There's no need to because I can get my
because the admin is
so limited all ourresults come through email
so I can act on them or phone the patient
or arrange to phone the patientor just file the results.
Same thing happens with our lettersfrom specialists.
(19:50):
I can either file them and
arrange to see the patientto explain what the specialist said.
So nothing concerns me really.
And so I finish at eight three days a week
and Tuesdays I finish at one, Fridaysis just kind of a three hour day.
Which doesn't feel like being at work.
And then I'll do the same the next morning
(20:11):
and then as I said, most GP's feel that's
my week is longer than mostGPS apparently.
I was talking to my boss in Sydney.
The average full timeequivalent GP is now working
34, 33 hours a week, face to face,
which doesn't see that many
(20:32):
I’m doing 45 and it seems enough.
I'm not over.
I don't feel burnt out,by doing that many hours it seems
that's fineI need to do that to get my work done.
Yeah.
And because I work the longer hours
I take much more holiday.
I'm off to Indonesia in three weeksto go kite surfing for two weeks
(20:54):
with some mates so you knowI have that to look forward to
and I'm perpetually looking forward
to the next thingwhich helps get me going.
Yeah.
No definitely definitely, I think justgoing back to the admin side of things,
you know, it's a huge differenceto what people get
here in the UK, you know, they've gota massive amount of admin work to do.
(21:17):
They are having to take with them.
You know, there's GP's that I can speak tothat are doing additional up to 10 hours
a week on top of working, you know,maybe 40, 45 hours, just in admin work
having to do at home, you know, sat away from the family and things.
So you definitely get a much better worklife balance, in Australia.
Yeah.
I think it's worth noting that forsome of these UK GP's that are coming in,
(21:40):
they are limited to the visa restrictions.
So that will be looking at kind of a minimum of well, full time, about 38 hours.
But you know,as you say, once you out of that visa
and startgetting that permanent residency,
the full timeequivalent is actually a lot less.
It depends what you want to do as well.
So some people want to work part time
(22:01):
because they’ve got other thingsthey want to do.
Other people won't to work asmany hours as they can
to buy that big house, but
everyone's got different aspirationsand goals and the way they work.
So I think the good thing hereis that you can... so I don't do
any out-of-hourswork overnight or evenings with the
(22:23):
out of hour services, but there's that option,
if you want to do that,you can work all weekend
if you want to and earn more moneybecause the way the system is geared
out of hours payments are higher thanthey would be during in-house payments.
Yes, but there arethere are lots of options.
Yes. And I guess it just kind of,you know, gradually taking us
into the physical kind of earnings,if you will, really.
(22:45):
And, you know, as we say,you know, called billings in Australia,
because if you are doing, you know, justthe general work,
you know, part time or full time,
you know, you can kind of earn obviously,I won’t say up to an amount because
it does depend on the practice.
What it is that you’re billing thepatients that you’re seeing.
But there is our abilityobviously doing out-of-hours
work, having differentspecialties is obviously another way
(23:08):
that individuals can earn,you know, an awful lot more money.
So I guess Chris, it would be great for youto give
the listeners and viewers, you know, a bitof an insight in regards to,
you know, maybe how people are earning.
Yeah...
It’s not a guaranteedsalary like here in the UK?
(23:29):
So in the UK when I was a partnerin practice, we had a basic practice
allowanceand we would see the books for the
what the previous GPs were earningand how much you would get out of that
and the rest of it.
Here, everything that you earnis through what we call billings.
So every time we consult a patientor do something to him or her,
(23:51):
depending on the length of time
and the complexity of it,they are called item numbers,
and those numberstrigger a payment from Medicare.
So you can have, the shortestthing is a brief phone call
less than 6 minutes, right up to one ofthe hardest things is a heart transplant.
(24:12):
But they've all got these special codesand then
so they're called your billings now and
a filter.
So when you see a job advertised,say it says
$400,000 a year earnings.
Now you don't know what'swhat's he talking about.
Is that billings or what.
So a full time GP in normal practice
(24:34):
could expect to bill $500,000, right?
So you bill $500,000 to Medicareand to private providers.
Now out of that
the company or the practice you work for
take a percentage of that fee.
So my percentage, I take 60%of my billings from the total income.
(24:57):
So out of 500,000
you would expect to then be paid,over the course of
a year, 300,000, 60%.
And then you have twothen obviously pay your own tax.
But one thing that we don't have hereis you have to pay superannuation.
Yep.
And obviously the Medical DefenceUnion and registration.
(25:20):
But yes.
So if you see a job advertisedwhere it says
earnings of 500,000,
you need to ask the employer,does that mean billings
or does that mean what my expectedpre-tax pay is going to be?
If you if you were pre taxpayer 500,000,
you'd be doing a lot of extra work
(25:42):
because that's half a million dollars,which would be lovely.
You know,I know a few GP's who do that much
but they're working all day or nightand doing lots of procedures, but no,
for a full time person,500,000 billings is what you would be
expected to take.
And I guess as you say, there,it depends on the,
(26:03):
you know, the individual,
It depends on obviously their skill sets,It depends on what they a lot of people
got is the motivesfor obviously making the transition.
So some of them are going for the money,some of them are going probably for that
much better work life balance.
So if you are really money hungry,you know, those abilities are there.
But typically what we see is we're talkinghere, you know, obviously those earnings
are still looking at, you know, what,you know, kind of two, three times.
(26:27):
A lot of GP's here in the UK are making.
So we move to Australia for the life
of a bit of skin cancer work.
So I'm looked at, I do skin checksand take off moles and things like that,
skin lesions, it'sI've taken a couple of melanomas
last week, but again with with skinsurgery, there are so many codes
(26:48):
depending on where the,where the lesion is,
the type of lesion is, how big it isand how complex it is.
So we're not take a molar flatto is a small ellipse
because that'swhat I've ever learned to do.
But other GP's would be flapsand all sorts of
complex procedures and grafts.
And if you do that sort of work, the feethat that attracts goes up tremendously.
(27:12):
So some GP's will just do will just work
in skin cancer clinics and willthen be earning an awful lot more.
But again, that'sI mean that's a subspecialty
that is interesting, but I wouldn'twant to be doing that day in, day out.
The great thing about GPlike for me is a variety, you know?
Yes, and I think we've given ABC a bit.
(27:34):
Listen, it's a bit of a,you know, good old guys, the Billings
and see how it comes through.
Obviously the Medicare,
the physical kind of earnings,I guess it was even that respect.
And one thingobviously I want to try and touch on is,
you know, maybe some of the jobopportunities that are available.
You know, there's a lot of Australia's.
Yeah, there's no hiding it.Australia did have a shortage of GP's.
(27:55):
It's got the opposite problemto have in the, you know, in the UK
where there's a lack of GP's in Australia,we've got a lack of jobs in the UK,
which is what a lot of individualsare kind
of exploring the opportunitiesand what they,
you know,what other opportunities are available
when they start hearing about,you know, the benefits
that we've mentioned so farabout working in Australia.
(28:16):
It is, it is up to enticea lot of people. Sure.
And the so all jobs, it doesn't matterif you're a hospital doctor or a GP.
All jobs advertiseddepend on a skill to provide a number.
So I have a I have a provide for themto work in the medical center
and other so
(28:36):
many other preferred numbersfor when I work rurally,
but know the job that's advertised
in Australia first,what has to be advertised,
I think for two monthsto the national press, medical press
and then if, if that doesn't obtaina suitable candidate,
then they're reluctantand at times overseas.
(28:57):
So so each job that is is advertised,is it tied to that one clinic?
Now it may be that
there'll be there'll be a high demandrurally and in small towns
and plus you get to big citieslike Sydney, Melbourne, Canberra,
there are few jobsthat are available to overseas graduates
(29:17):
because that's where all the local doctorswill work in the big cities.
But anywhere outside 50 K, outsidethe big city,
you can easily, easily get a job.
Yeah,and I suppose what Chris is talking about
there is, is the, the,the district variety areas,
which is something that I,
you know, I went through, it's,you know, all of our candidates and GPS
(29:41):
and the good thing with the DPAside of things I suppose
is that the governmentare constantly reviewing this.
So if we were to compare the DPA areas now
to the way that they were three years ago,you know, it's much, much better.
It's a lot more accessiblefor GP's to actually work,
you know, slightly close to the cities.
And there is the ability to actually sellthe some areas depending on what
(30:02):
how you're happy to do,how far you are happy to travel, you know,
you can still work or live in the cityitself, the district where you live
and then maybe travel in a 50 minutes,an hour,
you know, out of the cityto, you know, to work.
But you know, what we try and suggest tosome of our GP's is try and find
that balance you might be lookingbetween I live outside the city,
(30:24):
you get to see a little bitmore for your money for the cost of living
and then, you know,
maybe half an hour one way to the city,half an hour, one way to work.
Yeah, it's not far.
And Australia's a huge place.
I didn't realize that,but I didn't do much traveling.
It takes when I come back from Europe,we normally we come by plane
from Singaporeand you hit Australia, Port Hedland, the
(30:45):
and it's north of Perth.
Well north of Perthand it takes 5 hours to get from there
to Brisbanewhere I live by plane, 5 hours.
So that's the same as London to Turkeyis huge.
So traveling,
you know, half an hour to an hourfor anything here, you know,
unless nothing'sgoing to go down the road now.
(31:07):
Exactly.
I said that my surgery is 15 minutesdrive from here.
Very nice. It is very nice. Yes.
And because because I start at half six,the traffic is good.
And if I start work at nine,then all the kids are at school.
Pay for office works, you know,so take longer.
But with my hours it's easy traffic.
(31:30):
Yeah, definitely.
Definitely.
And I guess what you say isyou keep saying that about holidays and
you know to go into Singapore and things,you know, a lot of Australians,
you know, kind of do go on holidaywithin Australia
because you say it's so differentand obviously you can be DuPont
applied to travel 5 hoursand be in a completely different part
of Australia altogether, which a totallydifferent climate, different lifestyle,
(31:54):
you know, different offerings and things.
But at the same time a lot of people,you know, would go into in selected Asia,
for example, for holidays, like, you know,like my plans for the next three months.
So I got my first trip to Indonesia.
I come back for two weeks to my clinicand then go to Cairns to work
doing some Indigenous schoolboy work,which I do regularly, as in Cairns,
(32:18):
and then come back for a month,then doing a locum with flying doctors
in Broken Hill, which is about 2000kilometers away, middle of nowhere.
Yes, But again, interesting.
And I come back to my surgeryand start work again in October.
So yeah, there's so many places to go.
And we were recentlyVicki and I were recently in Rarotonga,
(32:41):
Cook Islands for five days
and, and because these placesyou want to go to, you go see a life.
And because it's, you know,
transport is so easy. Really.
Yes. Yes.
And I guess it's that aspect as wellfor individuals
that are wanting to make this move dueto have you trying to get some experience
(33:03):
traveling or,
you know, there's not just one aspectwhat the motives of the earnings
and are some people that they're thinkingabout the work life balance.
Some people obviously that they'rethinking I want to try something new.
I'd like to be able to exploredifferent health care system,
but I also want to see do some decenttraveling and things that explore.
And Australia can provide that wellfor me, You know, I wanted to live here.
(33:24):
I did my elective in Sydneyas a med student.
I always wanted to live here and it wasn'ttwo years later I meant to do it.
But some people want to come 4 to 5 yearsto say they've done it
and then experienced this past the worldand then come home to Europe,
which is fine and not everynot everyone that comes for initially,
(33:44):
an initial job stays and most do,but some don't.
And yes, it'ssuch a great place to come to.
I mean, it can be quitechallenging leaving England
and all all your support networks.
And then you've got to rent a houseby vehicle, get the kids to school.
So that can be a bit daunting.
But, you know, it's partly venture really.
(34:07):
Exactly. Exactly.
And we've very nicely just there just gotinto what I was going to say.
I was going to ask you about thingsmaybe to your suggestions for individuals
that are thinking about making this moveor going to make this move to Australia.
You know,
what are the main things for themto really kind of take into consideration?
I think it's not going to happenif I have for a job with you today
(34:27):
and you say you've got the joband it doesn't happen overnight.
It took me nine months of fulfilling,making sure my
my degrees and post-graduatequalifications have certified copies,
that my postgraduateeducation was up to date
and everything was legitimatefor the Australian medical system.
(34:50):
There's that
and then there's right,we need somewhere to live, so we do that.
So we looked online.
We spent about a month like onlinefor a half rent and for six months
near to where I was working.
And that took that took about a monthto actually sort out
where we're going to liveand then you arrive
(35:11):
and in the vehicle because when we rented
a car for a week and it's expensive,
so you need to actually have some fundsbehind you to say
we'll get a vehicle.
And then if you've got kidsthat need schooling and
we we I started work on the 1st of August.
Kids finished schoolI think the 20th of July in in England.
(35:35):
So I wanted them to come to Australiafor Holden and go go to school
the next term because our academic yearstarts in the end of January.
So they join in the they call themsemesters area for semesters.
So they went into the thirdsemester I think in August.
And even a choice of public or private
(35:57):
both have got their benefits in there.
The changes we sent us to private school
because a nice private school
is half acrossthe UK for sure, literally half the price.
I couldn't, you know, back in EnglandI couldn't send either
my kids to private schoolbecause I just couldn't fit here.
I could.
And yeah, yeah, it worked well,but there were these logistical things
(36:19):
of education and transportthat you have to think about before
you actually get on the plane.
Yeah, yeah.
It's as you say, it's a big transitionand there's a lot to, to kind of set up.
It's like setting upobviously a new life in train.
So there's a lot of there'sa lot of support.
You know, there's,you know, the people in the community,
from what I've personally experiencedwith the TPS, I made the transition.
(36:41):
I made this move.
You know,they get a lot of help from from people
that the community want to try to help outthe quite often you've got
the likes of obstacles as recruitersthat want to want to help out.
But then you've also got the clientsthat you're moving to
that want to give suggestions
and want to try to see and makethe move as seamless as possible.
And you know,
even as because we're saying thatwith the paperwork side of things,
(37:02):
the registration and the visas and that'ssomething that you get full support.
I've got, you know, individuals on my teamthat will literally guide you on a step
by step gate, step by step basisthrough the registration,
through the visas to make sure that youeverything's going to be ticked off.
We're working, obviously,you know, efficiently and proactively.
You know, these things do take time.
(37:24):
There's no exams.
But, you know, it is time consuming.
I mean, a lot of itis just waiting to hear about.
And when you submit a document,
you know, it can take five or six weeksplus for them to even come back to you.
And that's the good thing about the exambusiness, because I had my M.S.
GP and that's recognized as an equivalent
to the FRC. CGP So the Australian Collegeof General Practitioners.
(37:48):
Whereas if you come from another country,I've got my Filipino colleagues
have got their postgrad qualification inthe Philippines, which is recognized here.
So they've got to sit exams which apartfrom costing money, you know, stressful
and what I pass and how many times I doit, it can be the labor.
If you're from the UK and general practicetrading is respected
(38:09):
around the world from the UKand you can slot in here very quickly.
Yes, yes.
And that'sI mean I personal experience as well. I
now Awesome awesome.
And Chris O'Shea I think we've veryyou know given a really good insight
for a lot of tips that are thatI wanted to tune in and wanted to listen
and you knowhey what work in Australia could be like?
(38:32):
You know what?It could be involved obviously, for them.
You know,we touched on some of the benefits.
Now, obviously, things to consider,
you know, giving an overviewon the health care system itself.
So, you know, we want to kind ofthank you for your time today.
And, you know, it's kind of final thoughtsthat you would like to share.
No, I'm just glad I made the move.
You know, if you have a future me£1,000,000 a year to come back to the UK,
(38:56):
I've come back for a weekand then fly back home.
Now you can, you know,
the medical
system for me as a doctor is bestit was in the UK
as a patient access and servicesbetter as well,
which means the outcomefor treatment is improved and it's it's
getting better and more integratedwith of the AI and integrated systems.
(39:19):
So, you know, it's just a great place
and people are niceand they're much more relaxed over here.
You know, everyone is first in termsfrom patients to doctors to specialists
to lawyers, everyone is Chris or Tomor whoever, not not doctor or professor.
You know, it'sjust a much more equal society.
Yeah, there's a lot more respect,isn't there, for for doctors
(39:42):
in Australia, that'salmost like a level of old school respect.
But I don't know. I mean, I think
people respect each other.
Know when, when we came
in, rode my kids onto Nippers,which is the surf lifesaving, which,
which is a traditional thingto do on the beach
because surf dangerousand people drown and die.
(40:03):
And so when we joined the surf club,I would help.
And then I was helping.
I was told I had to do my PromiseBattalion, which is a surf lifesaving
certificate, which is hard workwhen you're middle aged ish.
But as a result, I did thethe certificate became a patroller
and then became a the medical advisorfor my love of club and the trainer.
(40:24):
So I did that for six years.
And all the people you meet on the beach,you might meet, you know, a soccer player
who's playing for the national teamor swimmer or builder.
Some newly unemployed for next.
You know, everyone's on firstname terms as opposed to Madden
and it's much more equal,which is great in 11.
Yeah Now, that sounds that sounds amazing.
(40:45):
And we definitely don'tget that in here in the UK.
And I know thatsounds that sounds awesome.
Sounds awesome.
Chris You right.
You make me want to make that move.
Heidi So, you know,I'll be as always ready for,
but apparently there'sI looked on LinkedIn as well.
They're always looking for recruitershere as well.
Okay, Now I do. I do.
I do appreciate that.I do appreciate that.
(41:07):
Well, there are certainly making you awarewhen I'm coming over and,
you know, we'll have to look to go outand, you know, get some food
and get some drinks and things.
You can yeah,you can take you down to the beach
and we can decent surf and and thingsand yeah, that'll be awesome.
It's the 22nd of July to NASA'sshortest day yesterday
(41:28):
and it's cold in the morning.
When I got to at fiveit was eight degrees.
But by lunchtime now by 10:00 it's 21.
So this is the coldest.
And on the news tonight, they just hadtheir first snow in the Alps.
So the snow season here I thinkis only about six weeks and not very long.
But they've had some snow
and ice, so they've got snow down south.
(41:48):
And I'm going up to Cairns to work inAugust, scuba dive on the reef barrier
Reef for a couple of days at the weekend,but I'm not working,
so there's a whole range of thingsyou can do.
Beautiful, beautiful.
I love the fact that you say thatyou know, it's 21 degrees.
I think for our listeners and viewers
that aren't aware, it's worthwhilejust noting that this is in Australia.
(42:09):
It's coming that winter.
So when Chris says it's cold,this is that winter at 21 degrees.
We're currently in our summer.
We've just today obviously hitting summer.
We're getting some of our warmest daysat this moment in time
and we are quite literally,
I think today saying that's goingbe 22 degrees in summer.
So you've got August to come yet.
(42:29):
September is a good day.
But yeah, you know, Chris,I really appreciate
your time today and for joining usand just giving this overview for
for our listeners and viewers.
And I also want to point out
that there are other podcaststo come through this series.
So we're going to be touching on Medicarein more detail,
giving a bit more of a comprehensiveoverview on Medicare, just giving you
(42:52):
more insights, having additional specialguests, more insights into.
Welcome, everybody.
Thank you for tuning in todayand obviously watching our podcast.
In today's podcast, we’re going to beexploring a life down under;
So what working as a GP in Australia is like;And we're very fortunate
to have a really prominent GPfrom Australia, a chap called Chris Jones
who has actually made the transitionfrom the UK into Australia
(00:24):
Coming up now about 16 years, right,Chris?
Yes, I arrived on the 1st of August 2008with my family.
So yes, 16 years, long time.
Wow. Wow.
And now what myself andChris are going to be covering today is
we're going to be going througha little bit around obviously
what working in Australiais like for individuals,
(00:45):
you know, what to really expect.
Kind of giving a bit of a comprehensiveoverview on working as a GP,
partly touching into some of the lifestyle, we’ll go through some of the health care system itself,
and obviously things to kind of considerand the benefits, obviously, of working
in Australia.
in Australia.
So, to kind of start with
So, to kind of start with
So, to kind of start with
So, to kind of start with
obviously, Chris, you mentioned that youmade that transition, coming up 16 years.
(01:08):
So, obviously, with your family.
I guess it's worthwhile asking,you know, really
what kind of led you to make that move?
You know, what actually caused youto think Australia’s going to be right for me,
I want to leave the UK?
Yeah, so I was in the NHS, I qualifiedway back in 86 in London,
and I was a GP in Pooleas a partner for seven years
when I made the movewith my wife and kids.
(01:30):
And at the time they were sixand seven when we moved over.
So the year before,
the NHS had been struggling more and more.
I was working harder.
Treading water and getting, disillusionedis a polite way of putting it,
and I was looking at different options and I've always,
I've been to Australia on holiday a few times
(01:52):
and I've always liked or enviedthe relaxed and outdoor lifestyle.
So we made the move and applied for a jobthrough a recruitment agency
to move to Australia.
So that was that was back in 2007
September, and I was in position
(02:12):
by the 1st of August 2008.
Wow. Wow.
It turns out there's a lot of reasons.
Obviously, as you say,the health care system in the UK was
struggling a little bit.
Obviously if we compare that to to now.
I think there's a lot of people that arein that same position, that are thinking,
you know, things have got slightly worse,
(02:34):
to be polite, as you say,and you know,
they're also now thinking about, you know,making that transition themselves.
So I think this is going to be areally good insight for them
to obviously be able to tune in
and find out, obviously, a little bit more onwhy they should make that move.
Yeah.
And Chris, obviously,one thing I would like to ask is,
you know, any regrets, you know,in regards to making this move?
(02:55):
You know, has Australiabeen the right thing for you?
Oh for sure, I mean, I'dlike to have done it earlier,
but my kids were very small
and my family wanted us to staylocal in the south of England.
So no, it was the right time for allof us to make the move really.
Yeah.
Wow. Wow.
(03:17):
So I guess, obviously, a lot of the questionsthat our listeners will kind of have
is really, what is itlike being in Australia?
What is itlike working as a GP in Australia
and how does it differto things in the UK?
So, you know, if you're happy,
just to give us a bit of an overview,a bit of a view on what
your working days are like, you know,what working in Australia is like as well.
So I'm full time.
(03:39):
I work in a ten man practice.
We used to have trainees,but we don't have them anymore
and all of the GP who I work with,
some are part time, some full time,some work in other areas as well,
and, as I said, I work full time.
I'm contracted for 45 hoursa week, 40 weeks a year,
which means I take12 weeks leave a year
(04:04):
which is slightly morethan I had back in the UK.
But the good side is that I work hardand play hard and travel lots.
The downside is in that 12 weeks,because I'm not seeing patients,
there's no money coming in.
So you have to weigh up the the moneythat you're earning while you work
against the money you’renot taking in when you're
traveling or on holiday
(04:25):
but I work very flexibly.
As I said, I'm full time.
So my week is, I work Monday...
Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday,Thursday, Friday and Saturday morning.
I start work at half six in the morning,which is quite weird for people in
in the UK.
But 6:30am to 1:00pm on Monday to Thursday.
(04:47):
So I'm seeing patients allthat time, and then
Monday, Wednesday and Thursday,I come back at four till eight.
Oh wow. So breaking up your days completely In that case.
And then Friday,
I come in at 10:00 in the morning ‘till 1:00,
three hours,
and Saturday I do 6:30 to 11:00.
So on my afternoons,every afternoon
(05:10):
I’m either on a half day or I'm off.
I'm quite sporty so I’ll either bedown at the beach kitesurfing,
swimming, running or with my wife
and it works well for mebecause I tend to work hard
when I'm seeing peopleand then I can quite relax,
I can take three or 4 hours offin the middle of the day,
(05:31):
do what I want to do, and then come backquite happy to see the evening shift.
And that works well for myself, my wifeand my family because it keeps me happy,
keeps them happy as well.
Yeah, of course.
And it provides a better work life balanceultimately as well, doesn't it, for yourself?
Yeah. I mean some people...I don't play golf,
but some people love playing golf.
So if you're a golfer you could play golfas much as you wanted,
(05:53):
other people like horseridingor just chilling with the family.
As I say, I love sportsand travel, so it does work
well for me because that combination,I don't get bored, I don't get tired.
And I actually look forwardto going to work, which,
you know, having been a GP for so longnow, not many people,
(06:15):
certainly back in the UK, who I talk to, can say“Listen I'm looking forward to coming to work tomorrow”.
You know, there's a challenge there and the patients arethe same as are in the UK.
We’re all the same, they’re rich and poor,young and old, the usual mix.
And in our center, of the ten doctors,
six are Filipino,
(06:37):
two are English,
myself and the other chap,
and then we've got the token Australian,
one Australian doctor and an Irish doctor.
So yeah, so it's very varied.
And the team, we’ve got three nurses, two ofwhich are ENs and ones an RN.
And we've got in-house phlebotomy from 7am till 3pm,
(07:00):
Monday to Friday with two for phlebotomists.
Wow.
So we have quite anintensive team.
But we don't have, which I miss from the UK,
we don't have health visitorsand we don't have district nurses.
Okay.
So that's a difference,
a different structure.
District nurses are sort of private fund, thatif you need district nursing care
(07:23):
you have to pay for, which isn't greatand the health visiting system
is clinic based and there isn't very muchcommunication
back with the family doctor,which is, you know, a shame,
but the way it happens.
Yes, yeah, it's just slightlydifferent to the way
things are here in the UK.
But it sounds like you're surrounded by,you know, a great team.
(07:45):
A very experience team.
Yeah, well the other thing is that all the...
the doctors and the nurses and the admin,they've been there a long time.
There's not a great turnover of staff,except for retirement or pregnancy.
You know, people stay.
I've been, as I say,I've been there 16 years.
One doctor’s been24 years in the same clinic.
Wow.
(08:05):
So, you know, that’s all good.
That's got to show somethingto job satisfaction ultimately as well.
It dose, yeah.
That doesn't happenreally in the UK too much.
Sure.
So yeah, wow,as you say, it sounds like it's a big,
you know, diverse of patientsthat you see as well.
As you mentioned obviously from, you know,
(08:26):
slightly less well off andyou know, very, very wealthy.
Well I think that’s the same as, you know,if you're in any...
any big town, because I'm on the Gold Coast.
So you've probably heardof Surfers Paradise.
I'm 10km north of that,
so it's a big town, big city,
and you have thatwhole range of people.
Yes.
(08:47):
No, completely get that.
And one thing that we...
you know I've personaly experiencedas well, is obviously the
the admin technology,the actual kind of facilities
that are inside a medical centerin Australia.
You know, we call the medical centersrather than just a GP practice.
Yeah, Yeah.
Are you able to elaborate a little bit more aboutthat on a first hand level for some of our listeners.
(09:09):
Yeah, okay, so we're paperless,but even so,
even though we're paperless I go through aream of paper every week, which is annoying but
I type up my notes obviously,and all my referrals,
if it's the public sector,they're on the template
to the public systemand you can't proceed with
sending the referraluntil all the boxes are ticked.
(09:31):
So you have to include pathology,the relevant history,
before you can actually send it,
and then you send it to
which ever hospitle you’re going to,you get an email back saying
it's been received and the patient getsa text the following morning saying
the GP’s refer you to the service, it's being triaged,
you'll hear within fivedays about the outcome.
(09:53):
Okay.
So that's one thing.
So it’s alot quicker in that case.
Yeah, there's a much better useof the private sector here.
So if you've got, let's say a hernia,
you've got a herniathat needs repairing,
I’ll then say, you know,we’ll refer you, do you want to go public or private?
and about a third ofpeople say “I’ll go privately”.
(10:14):
Now, to go privately,
you don't have to have private insurance.
You can actually payhowever much it costs.
But I think about 20%
of people have private insurance.
So the NHS in Australia is called Medicare
and that's free at the point of service,like the health service.
(10:34):
So doctors are paid by Medicare
and that's called bulk billing.
And because of my views, my leftwing views about health,
I bulk bill all my patients so other doctors,
GP and specialist for privately chargeso they get whatever the money for the
for the service of private Medicare let's,say $100 they'll charge another $100.
(10:58):
So there's this thing called a gap.
Yeah.
So with, with the referrals,if I send you to the private sector
and you've got private healthcover, you pay a top up.
But if you don't have private cover,you pay the full thing.
Okay.
So it’s a bit novel towhat I've been used to in the UK,
(11:20):
but it works, and we've gotthe same type of problems
as the health service, withwaiting lists in the public sector.
Yeah, referrals have categorized triageinto one, two and three,
so one is life threatening or cancers,two’s urgent, and three is routine.
So let's say you need a hip replacement,
and I send you publicly, you could beon the waiting list for three years,
(11:44):
which is, you know, not good.
And that all depends also onwhat catchment area you’re in.
So if you're in a large citywith lots of hospitals, it could be lower.
But I think that the...
the public sector hospitals,they’re good, they’re well staffed
most of the junior/middlegrades are all English or Irish.
(12:06):
So menny of them doing their rotations
to get specialist qualifications and
I think that the the overall satisfaction
with the public sector comparedwith what it is in the UK is higher.
I might be biased because I'vebeen here for so long now,
I think you’re bang on,obviously, with that
(12:27):
because even the servicesthat are offered as well,
you know, there's a wide range of servicesthat are facilitated by GPs
that aren't dealt with by GPshere in the UK...
Yeah, well I do a lot of breast cancer work...
...like pathology and radiology and things isn't there?
Well I was going to say I do a lot of breastcancer work and, if I saw a lady
in the UK with a breast lump or a suspectedbreast lump, the old approach was,
(12:51):
I'd have to do a referral to the hospitalwithin 24 hours as a suspected cancer
and the hospital would have to seethe lady within two weeks I think.
And then the both starts rolling slowly.
But if she comes to me here,
I'll get her imaging mammogramand ultrasound,
and that's no fee for most centers.
(13:12):
If it's negative, it's all happy days.
If it's positive, I'll explain that
she needs a biopsy, which is again,I refer to the same center a few days later.
Okay.
And if the histology comes backas positive for cancer,
I then request a staging CT
so that we can then sit, have a chat,sit down together and say, okay,
(13:34):
you've got a breast cancer,it's this type of cancer, it's localized.
Now we need to send yousee a specialist to do their bit.
And what would you like to do,again public or private.
Now if you go to public sectorwith cancer, brilliant service.
If you go to the private sector,
equally brilliant service.
So as a GP, I can reallysort out the patient
(13:58):
before they go and see the hospitalspecialist, which is great satisfaction
because you know you feelmuch more involved with the...
the patient and then when she's come backfrom her surgery or starts her radiotherapy,
you then sort oftake part in the aftercare,
which to me is good because I love it.
Yeah.
You're lot more e lot more involvedaren't you in Australia?
(14:20):
You know, in comparison to here
And you can facilitateand actually look after,
you know, a patient to itto a much higher kind of standard.
I guess that's why Australia is rankedas a top three healthcare systems
globally, to start with.
But you are able to kind of look afterthe patient, you know, that gives you that
better job satisfaction, but you know,that better patient care at the same time.
(14:41):
Yeah, and I think it's allabout speed as well.
You can get things done,
you know, you have to be pushy sometimesto get tests done and make phone calls,
but if you're keen to get involved
in care, you justmove things along.
Yes. Yes.
That's one thing that I'veexperienced as well first hand,
is that... obviously, depending onthe practice... but some of these practices,
(15:01):
they've got the ability of gettingsomebody in, having, you know,
lets say blood that'staken and having the results,
you know, almost turned aroundvery quickly
to, you know, get the results back with,you know,
sometimes even within a matterof hours, aren't they!
That’s kind of normal so...
I mean, for our bloods, if I do
a set of bloods, and you’re now 60, and we’regoing to do your routine annual bloods,
(15:23):
your cholesterol, get prostate, whatever,the liver and kidneys,
I'll see you today.
So we need to do a fasting blood test.
If you fasted, that's great it today.
If you haven't tomorrow and then I’ll say“I'll phone you in two days time with results”
so I’ll book you for phone consultationwhich Medicare will pay me for.
(15:46):
And I'll talk about results
I get them, I’ll give you a call and then,telephone consultation, discuss results
and any management or treatment needed.
So you can get everythinggoing so much faster.
Yes. Yes.
And that's
these little things like thatthat stand out a lot.
(16:06):
You know, in comparison to here in the UK, youknow, last time I went for bloods myself, I think it was
maybe five, six weeksbefore the results even came through.
You know, I'd actually forgotten thatI even had bloods taken when the
Doctor called me up.
I was, you know, it'sjust it's a long process where obviously
in Australia things can be donea lot more kind of proactively.
But the thing is withthe results follow up,
(16:30):
especially with COVID, when COVID came,
we couldn't see patients for threeor six months and everything
was done on the phone and there was a...a fee was paid for these phone calls.
And now I do about... I’m just looking at my bits today,
So this week I've seen 162 patients
made 31 phone calls this week,and that's kind of an average week.
(16:50):
So 31 phone calls and Medicare pay me
for these phone calls, which is good care,
and I'm being paid for it.
So I don't mind doing it.
Of course,
of course. Wow.
Well, that's it'svery different to the UK
and I think we'll
(17:11):
we'll come onto the earningsand the way that the earnings are kind of
overall kind of work out injust a couple of minutes
but I guess from where we’re up too,and while we're talking about, you know,
working as a GP, it will be worthwhilejust asking you to kind of get us through.
I know you've given us a couple of best
about the hours,but just run through a typical day
for yourself, for example,or maybe just a general for a GP.
(17:34):
So as I say
my first patientsbooked at half six,
because I love getting up in the morning, and when Iget up at five I take the dog out or whatever.
So first patients at half six most clinicslocally
will open at eight but ourplace opens at 6:30
and three of us are working at that time.
And our nurse comes in at 7:00.
So I've got my book patients now.
(17:57):
As I said, I bulk bill all my patientsbecause my views on access to
good quality health care,which I have to pay extra for.
And so 90% of mypatients are regulars.
So they’re known to myselfmainly and or the other doctors there.
So we have all their numbers.
We do accept walk ins and again,
(18:19):
we don't mind havinga walk in, an extra patient
because again that attracts...when you're working, you don't mind
working if you’re being paid for it.
What you don't likedoing is doing a job finishing a job.
And there are four more patientsin the waiting room.
You want to go home,
but if you're actually being paid for it,you don't mind so much.
So anyway, so get in 2 minutes beforeI have to start work.
(18:41):
I've got to get my first patient in. And
the notes are good because there'sa summary sheet with the major things
that he or she's got wrong with themand hopefully the last consultation
I did or the other doctordid will tell me what we're doing today.
Unless it's a new problem and I workthrough till 1:00, which is a long time.
(19:04):
But when you, when you know
they're going to be away at one to doother stuff it’s fine for me.
I then finish that one.
I'll go away and either don't come backor come back at 4:00.
So like I say, I do lots of sports,so I like to be on the beach
surfing, swimming or runningor meeting my wife for lunch.
And then 4:00I come back and work through till eight,
(19:27):
three days a week and go homeand one thing is, I don't bring work home.
There's no need to because I can get my
because the admin is
so limited all ourresults come through email
so I can act on them or phone the patient
or arrange to phone the patientor just file the results.
Same thing happens with our lettersfrom specialists.
(19:50):
I can either file them and
arrange to see the patientto explain what the specialist said.
So nothing concerns me really.
And so I finish at eight three days a week
and Tuesdays I finish at one, Fridaysis just kind of a three hour day.
Which doesn't feel like being at work.
And then I'll do the same the next morning
(20:11):
and then as I said, most GP's feel that's
my week is longer than mostGPS apparently.
I was talking to my boss in Sydney.
The average full timeequivalent GP is now working
34, 33 hours a week, face to face,
which doesn't see that many
(20:32):
I’m doing 45 and it seems enough.
I'm not over.
I don't feel burnt out,by doing that many hours it seems
that's fineI need to do that to get my work done.
Yeah.
And because I work the longer hours
I take much more holiday.
I'm off to Indonesia in three weeksto go kite surfing for two weeks
(20:54):
with some mates so you knowI have that to look forward to
and I'm perpetually looking forward
to the next thingwhich helps get me going.
Yeah.
No definitely definitely, I think justgoing back to the admin side of things,
you know, it's a huge differenceto what people get
here in the UK, you know, they've gota massive amount of admin work to do.
(21:17):
They are having to take with them.
You know, there's GP's that I can speak tothat are doing additional up to 10 hours
a week on top of working, you know,maybe 40, 45 hours, just in admin work
having to do at home, you know, sat away from the family and things.
So you definitely get a much better worklife balance, in Australia.
Yeah.
I think it's worth noting that forsome of these UK GP's that are coming in,
(21:40):
they are limited to the visa restrictions.
So that will be looking at kind of a minimum of well, full time, about 38 hours.
But you know,as you say, once you out of that visa
and startgetting that permanent residency,
the full timeequivalent is actually a lot less.
It depends what you want to do as well.
So some people want to work part time
(22:01):
because they’ve got other thingsthey want to do.
Other people won't to work asmany hours as they can
to buy that big house, but
everyone's got different aspirationsand goals and the way they work.
So I think the good thing hereis that you can... so I don't do
any out-of-hourswork overnight or evenings with the
(22:23):
out of hour services, but there's that option,
if you want to do that,you can work all weekend
if you want to and earn more moneybecause the way the system is geared
out of hours payments are higher thanthey would be during in-house payments.
Yes, but there arethere are lots of options.
Yes. And I guess it just kind of,you know, gradually taking us
into the physical kind of earnings,if you will, really.
(22:45):
And, you know, as we say,you know, called billings in Australia,
because if you are doing, you know, justthe general work,
you know, part time or full time,
you know, you can kind of earn obviously,I won’t say up to an amount because
it does depend on the practice.
What it is that you’re billing thepatients that you’re seeing.
But there is our abilityobviously doing out-of-hours
work, having differentspecialties is obviously another way
(23:08):
that individuals can earn,you know, an awful lot more money.
So I guess Chris, it would be great for youto give
the listeners and viewers, you know, a bitof an insight in regards to,
you know, maybe how people are earning.
Yeah...
It’s not a guaranteedsalary like here in the UK?
(23:29):
So in the UK when I was a partnerin practice, we had a basic practice
allowanceand we would see the books for the
what the previous GPs were earningand how much you would get out of that
and the rest of it.
Here, everything that you earnis through what we call billings.
So every time we consult a patientor do something to him or her,
(23:51):
depending on the length of time
and the complexity of it,they are called item numbers,
and those numberstrigger a payment from Medicare.
So you can have, the shortestthing is a brief phone call
less than 6 minutes, right up to one ofthe hardest things is a heart transplant.
(24:12):
But they've all got these special codesand then
so they're called your billings now and
a filter.
So when you see a job advertised,say it says
$400,000 a year earnings.
Now you don't know what'swhat's he talking about.
Is that billings or what.
So a full time GP in normal practice
(24:34):
could expect to bill $500,000, right?
So you bill $500,000 to Medicareand to private providers.
Now out of that
the company or the practice you work for
take a percentage of that fee.
So my percentage, I take 60%of my billings from the total income.
(24:57):
So out of 500,000
you would expect to then be paid,over the course of
a year, 300,000, 60%.
And then you have twothen obviously pay your own tax.
But one thing that we don't have hereis you have to pay superannuation.
Yep.
And obviously the Medical DefenceUnion and registration.
(25:20):
But yes.
So if you see a job advertisedwhere it says
earnings of 500,000,
you need to ask the employer,does that mean billings
or does that mean what my expectedpre-tax pay is going to be?
If you if you were pre taxpayer 500,000,
you'd be doing a lot of extra work
(25:42):
because that's half a million dollars,which would be lovely.
You know,I know a few GP's who do that much
but they're working all day or nightand doing lots of procedures, but no,
for a full time person,500,000 billings is what you would be
expected to take.
And I guess as you say, there,it depends on the,
(26:03):
you know, the individual,
It depends on obviously their skill sets,It depends on what they a lot of people
got is the motivesfor obviously making the transition.
So some of them are going for the money,some of them are going probably for that
much better work life balance.
So if you are really money hungry,you know, those abilities are there.
But typically what we see is we're talkinghere, you know, obviously those earnings
are still looking at, you know, what,you know, kind of two, three times.
(26:27):
A lot of GP's here in the UK are making.
So we move to Australia for the life
of a bit of skin cancer work.
So I'm looked at, I do skin checksand take off moles and things like that,
skin lesions, it'sI've taken a couple of melanomas
last week, but again with with skinsurgery, there are so many codes
(26:48):
depending on where the,where the lesion is,
the type of lesion is, how big it isand how complex it is.
So we're not take a molar flatto is a small ellipse
because that'swhat I've ever learned to do.
But other GP's would be flapsand all sorts of
complex procedures and grafts.
And if you do that sort of work, the feethat that attracts goes up tremendously.
(27:12):
So some GP's will just do will just work
in skin cancer clinics and willthen be earning an awful lot more.
But again, that'sI mean that's a subspecialty
that is interesting, but I wouldn'twant to be doing that day in, day out.
The great thing about GPlike for me is a variety, you know?
Yes, and I think we've given ABC a bit.
(27:34):
Listen, it's a bit of a,you know, good old guys, the Billings
and see how it comes through.
Obviously the Medicare,
the physical kind of earnings,I guess it was even that respect.
And one thingobviously I want to try and touch on is,
you know, maybe some of the jobopportunities that are available.
You know, there's a lot of Australia's.
Yeah, there's no hiding it.Australia did have a shortage of GP's.
(27:55):
It's got the opposite problemto have in the, you know, in the UK
where there's a lack of GP's in Australia,we've got a lack of jobs in the UK,
which is what a lot of individualsare kind
of exploring the opportunitiesand what they,
you know,what other opportunities are available
when they start hearing about,you know, the benefits
that we've mentioned so farabout working in Australia.
(28:16):
It is, it is up to enticea lot of people. Sure.
And the so all jobs, it doesn't matterif you're a hospital doctor or a GP.
All jobs advertiseddepend on a skill to provide a number.
So I have a I have a provide for themto work in the medical center
and other so
(28:36):
many other preferred numbersfor when I work rurally,
but know the job that's advertised
in Australia first,what has to be advertised,
I think for two monthsto the national press, medical press
and then if, if that doesn't obtaina suitable candidate,
then they're reluctantand at times overseas.
(28:57):
So so each job that is is advertised,is it tied to that one clinic?
Now it may be that
there'll be there'll be a high demandrurally and in small towns
and plus you get to big citieslike Sydney, Melbourne, Canberra,
there are few jobsthat are available to overseas graduates
(29:17):
because that's where all the local doctorswill work in the big cities.
But anywhere outside 50 K, outsidethe big city,
you can easily, easily get a job.
Yeah,and I suppose what Chris is talking about
there is, is the, the,the district variety areas,
which is something that I,
you know, I went through, it's,you know, all of our candidates and GPS
(29:41):
and the good thing with the DPAside of things I suppose
is that the governmentare constantly reviewing this.
So if we were to compare the DPA areas now
to the way that they were three years ago,you know, it's much, much better.
It's a lot more accessiblefor GP's to actually work,
you know, slightly close to the cities.
And there is the ability to actually sellthe some areas depending on what
(30:02):
how you're happy to do,how far you are happy to travel, you know,
you can still work or live in the cityitself, the district where you live
and then maybe travel in a 50 minutes,an hour,
you know, out of the cityto, you know, to work.
But you know, what we try and suggest tosome of our GP's is try and find
that balance you might be lookingbetween I live outside the city,
(30:24):
you get to see a little bitmore for your money for the cost of living
and then, you know,
maybe half an hour one way to the city,half an hour, one way to work.
Yeah, it's not far.
And Australia's a huge place.
I didn't realize that,but I didn't do much traveling.
It takes when I come back from Europe,we normally we come by plane
from Singaporeand you hit Australia, Port Hedland, the
(30:45):
and it's north of Perth.
Well north of Perthand it takes 5 hours to get from there
to Brisbanewhere I live by plane, 5 hours.
So that's the same as London to Turkeyis huge.
So traveling,
you know, half an hour to an hourfor anything here, you know,
unless nothing'sgoing to go down the road now.
(31:07):
Exactly.
I said that my surgery is 15 minutesdrive from here.
Very nice. It is very nice. Yes.
And because because I start at half six,the traffic is good.
And if I start work at nine,then all the kids are at school.
Pay for office works, you know,so take longer.
But with my hours it's easy traffic.
(31:30):
Yeah, definitely.
Definitely.
And I guess what you say isyou keep saying that about holidays and
you know to go into Singapore and things,you know, a lot of Australians,
you know, kind of do go on holidaywithin Australia
because you say it's so differentand obviously you can be DuPont
applied to travel 5 hoursand be in a completely different part
of Australia altogether, which a totallydifferent climate, different lifestyle,
(31:54):
you know, different offerings and things.
But at the same time a lot of people,you know, would go into in selected Asia,
for example, for holidays, like, you know,like my plans for the next three months.
So I got my first trip to Indonesia.
I come back for two weeks to my clinicand then go to Cairns to work
doing some Indigenous schoolboy work,which I do regularly, as in Cairns,
(32:18):
and then come back for a month,then doing a locum with flying doctors
in Broken Hill, which is about 2000kilometers away, middle of nowhere.
Yes, But again, interesting.
And I come back to my surgeryand start work again in October.
So yeah, there's so many places to go.
And we were recentlyVicki and I were recently in Rarotonga,
(32:41):
Cook Islands for five days
and, and because these placesyou want to go to, you go see a life.
And because it's, you know,
transport is so easy. Really.
Yes. Yes.
And I guess it's that aspect as wellfor individuals
that are wanting to make this move dueto have you trying to get some experience
(33:03):
traveling or,
you know, there's not just one aspectwhat the motives of the earnings
and are some people that they're thinkingabout the work life balance.
Some people obviously that they'rethinking I want to try something new.
I'd like to be able to exploredifferent health care system,
but I also want to see do some decenttraveling and things that explore.
And Australia can provide that wellfor me, You know, I wanted to live here.
(33:24):
I did my elective in Sydneyas a med student.
I always wanted to live here and it wasn'ttwo years later I meant to do it.
But some people want to come 4 to 5 yearsto say they've done it
and then experienced this past the worldand then come home to Europe,
which is fine and not everynot everyone that comes for initially,
(33:44):
an initial job stays and most do,but some don't.
And yes, it'ssuch a great place to come to.
I mean, it can be quitechallenging leaving England
and all all your support networks.
And then you've got to rent a houseby vehicle, get the kids to school.
So that can be a bit daunting.
But, you know, it's partly venture really.
(34:07):
Exactly. Exactly.
And we've very nicely just there just gotinto what I was going to say.
I was going to ask you about thingsmaybe to your suggestions for individuals
that are thinking about making this moveor going to make this move to Australia.
You know,
what are the main things for themto really kind of take into consideration?
I think it's not going to happenif I have for a job with you today
(34:27):
and you say you've got the joband it doesn't happen overnight.
It took me nine months of fulfilling,making sure my
my degrees and post-graduatequalifications have certified copies,
that my postgraduateeducation was up to date
and everything was legitimatefor the Australian medical system.
(34:50):
There's that
and then there's right,we need somewhere to live, so we do that.
So we looked online.
We spent about a month like onlinefor a half rent and for six months
near to where I was working.
And that took that took about a monthto actually sort out
where we're going to liveand then you arrive
(35:11):
and in the vehicle because when we rented
a car for a week and it's expensive,
so you need to actually have some fundsbehind you to say
we'll get a vehicle.
And then if you've got kidsthat need schooling and
we we I started work on the 1st of August.
Kids finished schoolI think the 20th of July in in England.
(35:35):
So I wanted them to come to Australiafor Holden and go go to school
the next term because our academic yearstarts in the end of January.
So they join in the they call themsemesters area for semesters.
So they went into the thirdsemester I think in August.
And even a choice of public or private
(35:57):
both have got their benefits in there.
The changes we sent us to private school
because a nice private school
is half acrossthe UK for sure, literally half the price.
I couldn't, you know, back in EnglandI couldn't send either
my kids to private schoolbecause I just couldn't fit here.
I could.
And yeah, yeah, it worked well,but there were these logistical things
(36:19):
of education and transportthat you have to think about before
you actually get on the plane.
Yeah, yeah.
It's as you say, it's a big transitionand there's a lot to, to kind of set up.
It's like setting upobviously a new life in train.
So there's a lot of there'sa lot of support.
You know, there's,you know, the people in the community,
from what I've personally experiencedwith the TPS, I made the transition.
(36:41):
I made this move.
You know,they get a lot of help from from people
that the community want to try to help outthe quite often you've got
the likes of obstacles as recruitersthat want to want to help out.
But then you've also got the clientsthat you're moving to
that want to give suggestions
and want to try to see and makethe move as seamless as possible.
And you know,
even as because we're saying thatwith the paperwork side of things,
(37:02):
the registration and the visas and that'ssomething that you get full support.
I've got, you know, individuals on my teamthat will literally guide you on a step
by step gate, step by step basisthrough the registration,
through the visas to make sure that youeverything's going to be ticked off.
We're working, obviously,you know, efficiently and proactively.
You know, these things do take time.
(37:24):
There's no exams.
But, you know, it is time consuming.
I mean, a lot of itis just waiting to hear about.
And when you submit a document,
you know, it can take five or six weeksplus for them to even come back to you.
And that's the good thing about the exambusiness, because I had my M.S.
GP and that's recognized as an equivalent
to the FRC. CGP So the Australian Collegeof General Practitioners.
(37:48):
Whereas if you come from another country,I've got my Filipino colleagues
have got their postgrad qualification inthe Philippines, which is recognized here.
So they've got to sit exams which apartfrom costing money, you know, stressful
and what I pass and how many times I doit, it can be the labor.
If you're from the UK and general practicetrading is respected
(38:09):
around the world from the UKand you can slot in here very quickly.
Yes, yes.
And that'sI mean I personal experience as well. I
now Awesome awesome.
And Chris O'Shea I think we've veryyou know given a really good insight
for a lot of tips that are thatI wanted to tune in and wanted to listen
and you knowhey what work in Australia could be like?
(38:32):
You know what?It could be involved obviously, for them.
You know,we touched on some of the benefits.
Now, obviously, things to consider,
you know, giving an overviewon the health care system itself.
So, you know, we want to kind ofthank you for your time today.
And, you know, it's kind of final thoughtsthat you would like to share.
No, I'm just glad I made the move.
You know, if you have a future me£1,000,000 a year to come back to the UK,
(38:56):
I've come back for a weekand then fly back home.
Now you can, you know,
the medical
system for me as a doctor is bestit was in the UK
as a patient access and servicesbetter as well,
which means the outcomefor treatment is improved and it's it's
getting better and more integratedwith of the AI and integrated systems.
(39:19):
So, you know, it's just a great place
and people are niceand they're much more relaxed over here.
You know, everyone is first in termsfrom patients to doctors to specialists
to lawyers, everyone is Chris or Tomor whoever, not not doctor or professor.
You know, it'sjust a much more equal society.
Yeah, there's a lot more respect,isn't there, for for doctors
(39:42):
in Australia, that'salmost like a level of old school respect.
But I don't know. I mean, I think
people respect each other.
Know when, when we came
in, rode my kids onto Nippers,which is the surf lifesaving, which,
which is a traditional thingto do on the beach
because surf dangerousand people drown and die.
(40:03):
And so when we joined the surf club,I would help.
And then I was helping.
I was told I had to do my PromiseBattalion, which is a surf lifesaving
certificate, which is hard workwhen you're middle aged ish.
But as a result, I did thethe certificate became a patroller
and then became a the medical advisorfor my love of club and the trainer.
(40:24):
So I did that for six years.
And all the people you meet on the beach,you might meet, you know, a soccer player
who's playing for the national teamor swimmer or builder.
Some newly unemployed for next.
You know, everyone's on firstname terms as opposed to Madden
and it's much more equal,which is great in 11.
Yeah Now, that sounds that sounds amazing.
(40:45):
And we definitely don'tget that in here in the UK.
And I know thatsounds that sounds awesome.
Sounds awesome.
Chris You right.
You make me want to make that move.
Heidi So, you know,I'll be as always ready for,
but apparently there'sI looked on LinkedIn as well.
They're always looking for recruitershere as well.
Okay, Now I do. I do.
I do appreciate that.I do appreciate that.
(41:07):
Well, there are certainly making you awarewhen I'm coming over and,
you know, we'll have to look to go outand, you know, get some food
and get some drinks and things.
You can yeah,you can take you down to the beach
and we can decent surf and and thingsand yeah, that'll be awesome.
It's the 22nd of July to NASA'sshortest day yesterday
(41:28):
and it's cold in the morning.
When I got to at fiveit was eight degrees.
But by lunchtime now by 10:00 it's 21.
So this is the coldest.
And on the news tonight, they just hadtheir first snow in the Alps.
So the snow season here I thinkis only about six weeks and not very long.
But they've had some snow
and ice, so they've got snow down south.
(41:48):
And I'm going up to Cairns to work inAugust, scuba dive on the reef barrier
Reef for a couple of days at the weekend,but I'm not working,
so there's a whole range of thingsyou can do.
Beautiful, beautiful.
I love the fact that you say thatyou know, it's 21 degrees.
I think for our listeners and viewers
that aren't aware, it's worthwhilejust noting that this is in Australia.
(42:09):
It's coming that winter.
So when Chris says it's cold,this is that winter at 21 degrees.
We're currently in our summer.
We've just today obviously hitting summer.
We're getting some of our warmest daysat this moment in time
and we are quite literally,
I think today saying that's goingbe 22 degrees in summer.
So you've got August to come yet.
(42:29):
September is a good day.
But yeah, you know, Chris,I really appreciate
your time today and for joining usand just giving this overview for
for our listeners and viewers.
And I also want to point out
that there are other podcaststo come through this series.
So we're going to be touching on Medicarein more detail,
giving a bit more of a comprehensiveoverview on Medicare, just giving you
(42:52):
more insights, having additional specialguests, more insights into.
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com