Chloe Andersen: Cultivating emotional self-awareness

🖤 Is experiencing grief a sign that you loved and lived hard?

 

In Season 2, Episode 3 of I’m lost, so what? Podcast, Chloe Andersen and Cassandra have a conversation about the bittersweet feelings of living abroad and moving back home, leaving your religion, and what great leaders all need to cultivate.

 

This conversation explores grief in all stages, moments, and seasons of life - whether that’s experiencing grief for a relationship, with yourself, milestones, losing a loved one, or the life that you ‘could have had’...

 

In this episode, Chloe shares about:

 

• Her experience living in 6 different countries
• The bittersweet feeling of living abroad and returning home
• Emotional self-awareness and agility (as a leader and a person)
• What it was like for her to leave Mormonism

 

Chloe Andersen (she/her), Managing Partner and Leadership Strategist at CoCreate Work

 

Chloe Andersen is managing partner who heads the leadership development and management practice at CoCreate Work, a workplace culture consultancy guiding businesses to systems-level changes that result in measurable successes and true inclusivity. 

 

She has worked in 6 countries over her 20-plus-year career in positions like Senior Global HR Advisor at Citigroup and learning and development leader for 8,000 professionals at Amazon. She brings cross-industry and cross-cultural perspectives to her work in leadership strategy, management, cultural communications, and team-building. 

 

She has guided teams at large consumer tech companies, senior executives at several Fortune 500 companies, and entrepreneurs with small businesses. Her programs have helped thousands of leaders to understand themselves better and become more emotionally intelligent and agile, resulting in teams that are happier and more productive. Chloe is an experienced podcast host and guest, and she is also a certified professional coach with a Master’s in Business Administration.

 

Links referenced in the episode:

 

• Work with Chloe and CoCreate Work through an Intensive: https://university.cocreatework.com/intensives-sp 
• Sign up for the CoCreate Work Culture Certification here: https://www.getdrip.com/forms/733792458/submissions/new 

 

Connect with Chloe Andersen elsewhere:

 

• CoCreate Work website: www.cocreatework.com 
• Connect with Chloe on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chloeandersen/ 
• Connect with Chloe on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chloeandersen__/  

 

Connect with Cassandra and her business elsewhere:

 

• Cassandra’s Personal Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cassandratle/ 
• Cassandra’s Personal Website: https://cassandratle.my.canva.site/ 
• The Quirky Pineapple Studio Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thequirkypineapplestudio/ 

The Quirky Pineapple Studio Website: https://thequirkypineapple.com/

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
But when you're open to like theuniverse and things working out,

(00:05):
however, they are meant to work out andunfolding, it shifts your definition.
Hello, hello, and welcomeback to the I'm lost.
So what podcast as usual, thisis your host, Cassandra Le.
And today I am bringing on ChloeAnderson, who is the managing partner and
leadership strategist at CoCreate Work.
Chloe and I have been workingtogether through The Quirky

(00:25):
Pineapple Studio for about.
a year plus.
And let me just tell youa little bit about Chloe.
She is the managing partner who headsthe leadership development and management
practice at co create work, which isa workplace consultant -consultancy
guiding businesses to systems levelchanges that result in measurable
successes and true inclusivity.
She's worked in six countries overher 20 plus career in positions like

(00:49):
senior global HR advisor at Citigroupand leader of learning and development
for 8, 000 professionals at Amazon.
She brings a cross industry and crosscultural perspective to her work in
leadership strategy, management, culturalcommunications, and team building.
In this podcast episode, we are talkingall about Chloe's time abroad and
what it was like for her to move home.

(01:10):
What emotional self awareness andagility is something that she actually
helps her clients with through cocreate work and what it was like
for her to leave her religion.
So I'm excited for you all to listento this episode and just all of
the good stuff that came out of it.
Thank you.
Let's dive in.
Hello.
Hello, everyone.
I'm Cassandra Leigh and you'relistening to I'm Lost, So What?

(01:32):
The podcast exploring betweenbelonging and carving your own path
for all the peeps out there who kindof know what you're doing, but still
question what the fuck is going on.
Yeah.
I'm with ya.
Hey, Chloe.
Hi, Cassandra.
I'm super excited to have you here.
How are you?
I'm good.
And I'm excited to be here.
Yay.
Okay.

(01:52):
So let's just dive in because I feellike I have lots of questions for you.
And I know a little bit of yourstory since we've been working
together for a while now, butI'm always curious to learn more.
So the first question that Ialways start off with is what
does being lost mean to you?
And can you describe thefeeling of being lost?
Um, yes, this is such, you know, I sawthis question and he sent it over to me.

(02:15):
And it's such an interesting questionbecause I thought, I don't know that I
have really felt lost in a long time.
And I think it's, it's an interestingthing- and I think in part, because
I was in so many situations as akid, and then also as we'll get into
with traveling and living abroad.
So many situations where I did feelreally lost that I think I've gotten to

(02:38):
a point of like, I recognize that forme, it is kind of the feeling of lost
as like, I'm not sure what to do next.
That's what it feels like to me.
And so, yes, I still get that.
But I also have this wholehistory of life of things working
out and me figuring it out.
So even though I have that experience oflike, Oh, I'm not sure what's next, or

(02:59):
I'm not sure where to go or what to do.
Ooh, I love that.
So there are a couple other peoplewho have answered the question on the
podcast, and a lot of them have said,Oh, it's like this feeling of not
knowing what's going to happen next.
Which is then coupledwith anxiety and like,
Yeah, yeah.
Um, they're normal things.

(03:19):
But I love what you were sayingabout like, you have the history
of an experience of life that Iguess it's cultivated this sense of
self trust that It'll all work out.
I was just going to, and it's funnybecause there are two things I, my mom
always kind of drilled into us as kids.
One, one was don't borrow trouble,which just means don't, you

(03:42):
know, don't worry about tomorrow.
Like worry about things whenyou need to worry about them.
And the other one is it always works outand I feel like what I just gave you as
an answer is 100 percent my mom like italways works out and don't borrow trouble.
It's like I, I am lost.
I'm not really sure what to do next,but I know I'm going to figure it out.
And so there's no point in.

(04:04):
Worrying about it.
Yeah.
Which is funny because I worry alot about a lot of things but but
being lost is not one of them.
Oh, okay.
I have questions on that.
But maybe they'll they'll come outwhere your answers will come out as we
answer the other questions I've got.
But before I get into like living abroadand moving back home to the United States.

(04:26):
What do you think helped you cultivatethat feeling of one self trust that,
okay, I know this is going to befine, but then not even just self
trust, but like trust in the universe,I guess, that It'll all be okay.
That is a great question.
I think I think in part having a momwho was constantly saying those things

(04:46):
when life was like not going well.
And you know, as ateenager, things feel huge.
Yes.
And to have a mom who was just saying.
It'll work out.
It'll work out.
And then it always has worked out andworking out doesn't mean it's interesting.
Cause I feel like it's self fulfillingprophecy because working out, if
you have a very defined definition,defined definition, if you have a

(05:08):
very clear definition of like whatworking out is going to look like,
then maybe it doesn't so much, butwhen you're open to like the universe.
And things working out, however,they are meant to work out and
unfolding, it shifts your definition.
And so it gives- it gave me thatconfidence of like, even if it's

(05:29):
not what I hoped it was goingto be, I know that it will.
Be something great.
And I'm not really sure.
I think maybe it's just -maybepart of it is just optimism and
like a positive attitude aboutthings and a little confirmation
bias, probably creeping in to go.
Oh, yes, this is what happens.
This is what was meant to happen.

(05:50):
But for whatever reason,it's worked out really well.
I also feel like I havelearned how to set.
Good expectations, likenot low expectations.
So as an example, when I movesomewhere, I have learned, I have
to give myself six months beforedeciding whether or not it was a
good move because it just takes time.

(06:11):
So in that it's all those little thingsthat I've learned about myself where
I'm like, okay, this takes six months.
So then I don't get stuck in the, like.
This is terrible.
I'm homesick.
What did I do?
And I realize I've gone way far, but,but circling back, I think those,
those expectations, that voice inmy head, like all of those things

(06:33):
are what give me that confidence.
Oh, I love all of this.
And actually, I don't think youwent that far because I'm about to
ask you about living abroad anyway.
Okay.
Okay.
So you've worked in sixcountries in your 20 plus career.
Which countries have you lived in?
What did you learn from each of them?
And do you have somethingyou miss about being abroad?
Those are like three questions in one.

(06:53):
So if you need me to repeatthem later, let me know.
I'm good.
Okay.
So let's start with, so iteven started before my career.
I was an exchange student in highschool and I lived in Belgium.
So that was my firstexperience living abroad.
I was 14.
Oh my gosh, that's really young.
I know.
I know.
My parents, I think they just knew Iwas going to figure out how to do it.

(07:15):
And so they were like, okay, fine.
Wow.
So that was number oneand I was too young.
I was very homesick the entire time.
It was supposed to be 10 monthsand it ended up being five months.
That's a long time too.
That is long time.
So five months, it endedup being five months.
And I'm going to go through andjust talk about what I learned

(07:37):
in each one as I'm going.
We'll just go chronologically.
So the lesson, like, I feel like it wassuch an important lesson as a 14 year old.
First of all, I learned thatI actually liked my family and
was happy to go back to them.
So that was great.
Okay, good.
But in terms of living abroad, itkind of is encapsulated in one story.
It was Christmas Eve.
So I was spending Christmas withthis family and it's Europe.

(07:57):
And so gifts are done Christmas Eve.
Everyone had a pile of giftson the table, just a different
experience than what I'd had.
And Christmas had always been a huge thingin my family and like over the top, you
know, parents compensating, et cetera.
So just, just big, huge.
So I was talking to my familythat night and, and the host

(08:18):
family had bought me a coat.
I needed a coat.
It was so nice of them.
And I, I had my own gifts.
Like it was, it was lovely.
I was talking to my family that nightthough, and I, in English and not.
Thinking about whether peoplecan understand what I was
saying or how much context andI made the comment to my family.
Oh, yes, they just, youknow, it's different than us.
They just had these small piles of giftson the table and then we each opened them.

(08:41):
I was explaining it.
Well, my host mom heard the small giftcomparison and it turned into a thing and
she like confronted me kindly, but it wasthis learning moment of I really needed
to be aware of a difference isn't bad.
And I didn't feel like it was bad either.

(09:01):
I, but the way I was talkingabout it across that way.
So I also learned this lesson aboutperception and intent versus impact,
which now I have the language for it.
I didn't at the time,but it was very like.
Oh, I said this thing, which Idid not mean that way at all.
And that's how she heard it.
And I want to make sure that sheknows that that's not how I feel.

(09:21):
And so having that conversation, butalso just that awareness that like the
way my family did things or the wayAmerica, you know, the United States
does things is not the only way.
And it's not the right or best way.
It's just a way.
And I feel like as a14 year old, that was.
Such a valuable lesson to learn, like-
yeah.

(09:42):
It changed- I feel like it changedmy whole life to learn that lesson.
Wow.
That was country number one.
Okay.
Oh my gosh.
If that one was number one,what were number like the rest?
The next two were France and Switzerland.
I was raised Mormon and I went on amission for the Mormon church and I

(10:02):
already having lived in Belgium and takenFrench for years, already spoke French.
Which doesn't necessarily have a hugeimpact, but I give it for as far as where
you go, but I, in terms of context, Ialready spoke the language, which was
great because lots of missionaries do notalready speak the language and you have
eight weeks of training, and then you'rejust sent into this country, and you have

(10:26):
to, like, learn, learn by doing, whichimmersion, right, that's where you learn.
And so that was a very differentexperience because I wasn't living in the
country as, like, a member of society.
I was living in thecountry as a missionary.
And so my context was very different.
And I spent a lot of time with notnecessarily French or Swiss people, but

(10:48):
with refugees, um, who, you know, weredisplaced, spent a lot of time in that.
And as far as that experience went, itwas very, it was less about the country
and more about the missionary experience.
Solidified my language skills for sure.
I love both France and Switzerland.
I have not been back since I leftMormonism, so I would like to and have

(11:15):
just that experience as well of likedrinking wine and experiencing what the
countries are like, but those two, itwas very much more the Mormon experience.
But they also just broadenyour horizons, right?
Anytime you live overseas, you justhave that breadth and you see things
differently, especially working withand talking to a lot of refugees,

(11:36):
just a different experience ofwhat that's like in the country.
The one thing I will say is I gaineda great appreciation for national
healthcare, like for, right?
There's, there's that for sure.
And the food.
I'm a foodie.
And so of course that was lovely.
So those were those two.
Okay.
So that's three, right?

(11:56):
That's three.
Okay.
So then fast forward career wise, andI was working for Citigroup, Citibank
at the time and living in New York.
And I had an opportunity to go toJapan for a six month assignment and
which I was really excited about.
I actually had, there wasJapan and there was India.

(12:18):
And in my mind, I actuallywanted the India assignment.
So I was like, I'm not sure howlong term I'd want to live in India,
but six months sounds amazing.
Didn't work out that way.
Ended up going to Japan.
Um, Which interestingly, my grandparentshad lived in Japan in the seventies.
Oh really?
Yes.
My grandfather had worked forIBM and they were over in Japan.
And so as a child, I spent a lot oftime at my grandparents house and

(12:42):
they had lots of Japanese decor.
My grandmother would useJapanese phrases for certain
things that we all picked up on.
Oh, wow.
And so it was this really coolexperience because I was going to
this country I'd never been to before.
I'd never been to Japan.
I'd never been to Asia at all.
And still feeling this levelof connection because I'd had
some like cultural exposure.

(13:03):
So yes, it was amazing.
So I, I got there, it was supposed to bea six month assignment, which was lovely
because it meant I went there and I wasn'tthinking, Oh, I'm here for the next three
years, which could have felt really big.
It was like, this is six months andI was going to make the most of it.
So.
Yeah.
I got a Japanese tutor aspart of my package for living

(13:24):
overseas with the company.
I leaned into Japanese lessons.
I traveled all over Japan as much asI could, just did as much stuff as
I could pack into those six months.
Um, and through the course ofthat, just because I was like,
Oh, this is only six months.
I, I feel like that helped me just fall inlove with the country and the experience.

(13:46):
And so I ended up stayingfor three and a half years.
Yeah.
So I ended up staying in Tokyo,um, for three and a half years.
And I feel like that experience,especially because it's not like Western
culture kind of in that traditional,you know, um, It was so eye opening

(14:07):
too, because it was so different in somany ways and just understanding the
difference in culture and their collectiveapproach to life and just, you know,
be in harmony and there are upsidesand downsides to every culture, right?
Like.
Yeah, it was great things.

(14:27):
There's things that can be frustrating.
There were definitely some thingsthat were frustrating and also things
that were just absolutely amazing.
Like you walk around Tokyo andthere's no trash cans and there's
also no trash on the street.
No litter?
Anywhere, no!, no.
Wow.
Right.
It just the amount of pride that'staken the food is just amazing.
And so, you know, like fruit is.

(14:49):
expensive and alsoabsolutely delicious, right?
Like there's just these,these differences.
And when I ended up deciding to stay,my grandmother had done Japanese
flower arranging and, and always hadarrangements in our house and did them.
And I was like, I want to take classes.
And so I found somewhere to takean Ikebana class, which was this
beautiful, like I got to learn moreabout Japanese culture, but also have

(15:12):
this connection to my grandmother.
She was still alive at the time.
And she sent me one of her Ikebanabooks that she had from like
the 1970s when she lived there.
And it actually had like a letterinside from one of her Japanese friends.
And just, this is like amazing connection.
And having had that opportunity andreally leaned into, I'm going to do

(15:34):
something that's very culturally likethis Japanese to have that experience.
I got so many different justinsights about the culture and
the beauty and the appreciation.
So I feel like I learned a lot.
while living in Japan.
And I just have this absolute deeplove for Japanese people and culture

(15:56):
and the country and just love it.
I also feel like the fact that becauseyour grandparents lived there, it's
like connecting with your family.
When, like, connecting with your familyin a totally different way, because you
both lived a very unique experience ina totally different culture, country,
language, and you could talk to themabout something that, like, you know,

(16:21):
I mean, when I talk to my grandma, I'mtalking to her about, like, food or, you
know, chores or, yeah, the basic things.
And here you had, like, this wholeother experience of, hey, I can talk
to you about, like, all of these thingsthat I've experienced that you get.
Yes, and I have two aunts and atthe time they were in high school,
like high school and just graduated.

(16:42):
So they actually livedover there at the time.
So I got to have really interestingconversations with them too about
being like these, especially inthe seventies, these American
taught and they're both tall and.
And one's 5'10 and blonde, so like, yes,in Japan and what that experience was
like, which was just, it was a really funconnection to be able to make for sure.

(17:03):
Okay.
Okay.
So that's country number four.
Four.
Okay.
Five and six.
Well, U.
S.
is six.
That's, but I'll talkabout coming back to it.
So five is Hong Kong, whichI moved to from Japan.
I had been there three and a half years.
It's like, I'm not quite readyto go back to the U S yet.
So I went to Hong Kong, which was areally interesting experience as well.

(17:26):
Having been this British colonyand the whole transition that
they've been making back to chinaand just what that looked like.
So I did not.
It's interesting becauseit was a British colony.
There's so much English there.
So I, I didn't even attempt to learn anyChinese, which now I have some regrets

(17:47):
about because I'm like, I lived there.
I lived there for about a year and a half.
That's still a long time.
Yeah.
And I was in a regional role in my job.
And so I was covering kind of all ofAsia, which was different in Japan.
I was.
Solely focused on Japan.
And so that was a little bit differenttoo, in terms of my interactions,
my client groups were not Hong Kongnationals or Chinese nationals.

(18:11):
They were both American, actuallythe two main leaders I supported.
So that looked a little bit different,but it was great to have that experience
as well and just get exposure to anothercountry in Asia and see what that was
like, learn how to navigate where Ireally, I learned enough Japanese to
get by, did not learn a ton of Chinese.
And so like taxi drivers, uh,was a trickier experience, learn

(18:34):
technology is so different.
And that was a huge thing between beingan exchange student in Belgium and being
a missionary, like cell phones at the timewhen I was a missionary like brand new.
Brand brand new, and it was just likebasic flip, you know, cell phones versus
smartphones, like living overseas nowthat smartphones exist is a totally

(18:56):
different experience versus like trying tonavigate without that using actual maps.
Oh my gosh.
All those things, train schedules, havingto go to the train station, pick up the
schedule, like just totally different.
So It's so interesting to think backon and just having to go and make a
collectively, you know, a calling cardphone call internationally, which I don't

(19:18):
even know if you know what calling cards-
Yes!
I do.
I do!
Um, so it was interesting being in HongKong and just realizing how helpful
technology is and how useful it is.
And also just getting, I workedwith a team from all over the
world, which was also amazing.
Wow.
And then I moved back to the U S.

(19:38):
Okay.
So that is country number six.
Wow.
This is, I didn't know, like, I knewthat you lived abroad because, like,
we've talked about it here and there andlike, yeah, it's always like sprinkles
of, yeah, Hong Kong or Japan, but Ididn't know, like, the full breadth
of just how much you've lived abroad.
Wow, that's amazing.

(19:58):
Which takes me to the next question ofwe've talked a little bit about like
the bittersweet feeling of being abroad.
And then also the bittersweetfeeling of coming back home.
What have you done to movethrough that bittersweet feeling,
whether you're abroad or at home?
And for the people who are listening andyou're kind of like, what bittersweet
feeling, I guess, how do you describe it?

(20:20):
Like a homesick?
So here's how I would, here'show I would describe it.
And my friend who lived in Amsterdamfor like eight years, actually
is the one who told me this term.
It's called Hiraeth.
Hiraeth - is how you, I thinkhow you say it's a Welsh word.
Okay.
It's Welsh.
And it means a deep longing for something,especially one's home, but it's got that.

(20:44):
Like deep longing for somethingthat's like different.
So home could be it, but I feel like theexperience is like, I just have those
constant deep longing and also joy.
Like it's, it's totallythat contradiction of it.
Cause you can feel two things at once.
Right.
It's so it's like that I'mconstantly missing parts of past

(21:07):
lives and also I love my life now.
And the past life's got me here.
And so it's almost just that feelingof longing, I would say, like,
there's just a feeling of longing.
And, and you never, I don't feel like Iwill ever feel totally at home anywhere.
And I also will never notfeel at home everywhere.

(21:30):
Wait, can you say that one more time?
Yeah.
I think I I feel like I will nevertotally feel at home anywhere.
Mm hmm.
And I will also alwaysfeel at home everywhere.
It's like everywhere is myhome, but, but nowhere is.
So it's just this, and it'sa hard feeling to explain.
I actually, I think it could be truefor different periods in your life too.

(21:54):
It doesn't matter whether you've livedoverseas or in different countries or
different places, like there's differentperiods of your life that you miss.
Yeah.
And also you can't go back and youwouldn't necessarily go back, but you do.
It's that like nostalgia on steroids.
Nostalgia on steroids.
I do totally understand what you'resaying because now that I've been abroad

(22:14):
for almost collectively eight years, Ijust picked up my 10 year residency card.
So I'm now considered apermanent resident in Spain.
Which means after five years, I canactually apply for citizenship, which is
wild to me because, um, I did not expect,like, that opportunity to open to me.

(22:35):
But I think when we were talking about,like, this bittersweetness of, oh,
yeah, like, when I go, actually, I'vetalked about this in therapy, too.
Um, when I go home, which my therapistwas like, well, stop calling Virginia
home because that's not your home anymore.
And I was like, yeah, right.
But when I go back to Virginia, it'slike, oh, I get to have all of this, like,
familiarity and I'm with my family again.
But.
a part of me is like, Oh, thisisn't, this isn't it anymore.

(22:57):
Like this doesn't, this doesn't feel good.
Like it feels okay fora short period of time.
But if I stay for too long, then Idon't feel good about like the direction
my life is heading for some reason.
Yeah.
Like a terrible way, but just like, Thisis not aligned and then when I come back
to Spain, I feel really excited becauseI'm like, Oh, finally, I'm like back at
my house with my like routine and stuff.

(23:20):
And then when I'm here for a while, I'mlike, Hmm, I think I need to go somewhere.
Maybe not back to the UnitedStates, but I need to go
somewhere because this is not it.
Yeah.
It really is that feeling of like,I feel good and I don't feel good.
Like it just is this constant thing.
I also, it's not just the places too.
It's like, The people, especially in theexperiences I've had, I feel like I've had

(23:45):
coworkers or people I've gone to churchwith or missionaries and you have this
shared experience and this shared history.
And it's almost like Imiss those people too.
Not that they're not still part of yourlife, but it changes and it's different.
And when you come back together, youget to like, relive it a little bit.
too.
So I also feel like I miss those peopleand they're still part of my life.

(24:09):
So it's that same, likeI'm home everywhere.
I'm home.
Nowhere.
I have friends everywhere.
I have friends nowhere.
Like it just is, it's just a wild thing.
Yes.
I have that conversation with mypartner all the time where I'm
like, Hey, I don't have friends.
And he goes.
You literally just went tocoffee with somebody yesterday.
Yeah.

(24:29):
I'm like, but it's not the same.
Like, I don't have somebody I can callup to like, go grab a random pizza.
And then when I'm even back in theUnited States, and if I were maybe closer
to the friends, like old friends, Idon't know if they would have the time
to go grab a pizza with me anyways.
So I totally get it.
Oh, question for you.
Have you seen the movies past lives andalso everything everywhere all at once?

(24:52):
I have not seen past lives.
I've seen everythingeverywhere all at once though.
Okay.
I feel like what you weresaying kind of reminds me of
everything everywhere all at once.
I haven't seen past lives either, butit does talk about this concept of, I
think in Korean, it's called in youngand I'm going to, I might butcher this.
So whoever's listening and this isnot correct, please let me know.
But it is the belief that any type oflike connection you make, even if you're

(25:17):
like walking across the street and likeyou brush shoulders or something, that
means that there could be like thousandsand thousands of layers of yin yang
that means like you two were connectedsomehow somewhere in a past life.
And like that longing and yearningfeeling that you were talking about
before kind of reminds me of that too.

(25:38):
Yeah, I have not.
I don't know if I've experienced in young.
I have to watch the movie, butI heard that you like, ball.
Okay, now I'm going tohave to watch the movie.
Yeah, it's out of town this week.
I'm like, I can, I can justsit down and have a ball fest.
Have a ball fest.
Yes.
Okay.
To the other questions that I have for youabout living abroad and moving back home

(25:58):
from a cross cultural perspective, becausenow you work in leadership and culture.
Is there something that you think isimportant that people should develop as
leaders, especially leaders who occupy.
I say the online space because, youknow, when you work online, there
are no borders, but maybe justleaders in general in any space.
Yeah, I think the biggest 1 reallygoes back to that 1st experience I

(26:21):
had in Belgium that I learned at.
At 14 or 15, you know, 14, 15is don't don't make assumptions.
Be curious, right?
One of my biggest values iscuriosity, and it stems from that.
Ask questions.
Be curious.
Don't make assumptions.
That's number one, because You don'thave the full cultural context.

(26:42):
You don't know, like words don'tmean the same things in different
countries and different languages.
Your approach isn't goingto be taken the same way.
And so asking questions, being curiousbefore you go into a space when you're
knowing that there's going to be a lotof different people in those spaces.
And if you think about online,there's people from everywhere online.

(27:05):
And so you really have to think about.
How you're going to impactfolks and ask those questions.
And sometimes I struggle in theonline space because I do have such
an awareness of difference and nuancethat like people will make these little
pithy posts and I'm like, okay, butyou're missing like the other 25- yes.
Like all these things.

(27:26):
And I get that, like, it's, it's onlineand you're being pithy and people's
attention spans now and all those things,like you've got to grab them and I
think sometimes we sacrifice the impactthat we could have in an effort to be
concise, to be pithy, to like catchpeople's attention because we missed
so much of the nuance that's there.

(27:48):
And so that's probably number one islike ask questions and be curious.
Don't, don't make assumptions about whata country or a place or people are like.
So that's really, I think that's.
The most important one.
Yes, and ask people.
It's amazing to me how often, and itcomes up like a really basic example

(28:10):
is like folks who are writing things inlike a foreign language or Advertising
in a foreign country and they aren'tasking a local to like review that
text to talk about how it's goingto impact and this goes to like,
why diversity in the workplace is soimportant and having different people

(28:32):
from different backgrounds and differentcultures and different experiences
because you need people because youneed people to like, check that and
it's amazing to me how often theydon't and like that, that's amazing.
Especially in the online space.
It's so easy to find someonefrom the community that you're
actually trying to reach to askthose questions or better yet, you

(28:53):
know, hire them if you can do that.
But, but financially that'snot always possible, but you
can always consult, right.
And have someone help.
You in terms of like, how isthis communication going to land?
How is my leadershipstyle going to show up?
As an example, I had someone I wasfacilitating in Japan and I, I put
my hand on my hip a lot becauseI talk too much with my hands.

(29:16):
So I will put it on my headjust to like, try and not have
my hands be all over the place.
And a woman came up to me afterwards,one of my coworkers and was like,
so the way you were standing, andI think I had both hands on my hip.
She's like, it, it's very aggressive.
Oh, wow.
Which is like any becausethat's a power pose.
Yes.
Yes.

(29:36):
And, and it goes back to culturaland culture differences and how, you
know, what the expectation is in us.
We're very individualistic.
Japan is very collective.
And so it's a, it's a big difference, butyou need to be open and listen and curious
and take feedback and believe people know.

(29:56):
About their own culture, which I'm amazedthat sometimes people don't believe
them like it's, it's kind of shocking.
Oh, my gosh, that's so funny.
Um, yes, I, I totally agreebecause I, uh, finally, this
happened to me, not necessarilyrelated to culture, but I think.
Something similar.
Um, so you all can't see me if you'relistening to the podcast, but I

(30:17):
have Asian features or what would beconsidered Asian features from Asia.
But now that could be, you know,questioned because globalization.
But I remember my first year inSpain, I was in a small, small
town with, I think, 11000 people.
And I'm from the suburbs of Washington, D.
C.
So that was like different.
Yes, it was a huge shock.
And I remember I went out to the bars.

(30:38):
And we were all just like drinking meand my friends and somebody comes up
to me and he was like, you're Japanese.
And I was like, no, I'm not.
And he's like, yes, you are.
I was like, I'm pretty sure Iwould know what I am or am not.
And he's like, no, no, no, I know.
Because you're Japanese, yourfamily's from Japan, and your

(30:59):
family bombed Pearl Harbor.
That's why the U.
S.
hates you.
And I was like, justmy family specifically.
Like
that's a lot.
Yeah.
And I was just like, where didthis information come from?
And I don't know what happened.
I think he was drunk too.
He just kept going and going and going.
And I was like, okay, good for you.
I'm going to go get another drink.
I'm not going to entertainthis conversation.
And then he was telling me that helearned his English from playing

(31:21):
Grand Theft Auto, the video game.
Awesome.
Yes, and watching Duck Dynasty andI was like, okay, well, good for you
for learning English, questionablesources to be learning English from.
But it just kind of reminded me ofwhat you were saying about like,
people just don't, they think that,I don't know, they just assume.
They make a lot of assumptions.
They make a lot of assumptions.

(31:42):
And when you have not been exposedto a lot of difference in your life
or in the world, it makes sensethat people make those assumptions.
Yeah.
And we can do better.
Yes.
Um, okay.
So going into that about assumptions,I want to ask you about emotional
self awareness and agility, becauseI do feel like what you were saying

(32:03):
too, about like pausing, takingin the feedback, kind of like.
Taking all of this information inwhat is, first of all, emotional
self awareness and agility for allthe folks who might be listening and
are like, I'm not sure what this is.
And can you share an example of whatthat actually looks like in action?
Yes.
So if we think about emotionalself awareness, it's really.

(32:24):
Your awareness of your emotions, right?
Just recognizing what's going on withyou, how you're feeling about things, etc.
So it's really that individual approach.
Like it's your ability torecognize your emotions,
preferences, internal states, etc.
Agility is your ability to recognize that.

(32:46):
And be aware before reacting anddeciding how you'd like to respond.
So I always, I don't know why in my brain,when I think agility, I'm always thinking
about like soccer drill or footballdrills, like sports drills, where your
feet are going back and forth betweenthe little boxes or you're running around
cones and just that ability to shift andnot be stuck in one direction because

(33:10):
your emotion came in really strong.
So it's your ability tolike recognize that emotion.
And then take a pause and take actionthat aligns with your values, with
how you want to show up in the world,with your best interest, with the
collective best interest in mind.
So that's emotional agility.
Got it.
So what you're describing is almostlike, I mean, I guess when somebody

(33:32):
is cultivating it, it might be likea very I guess, um, hard stop of
like pause and then let me continue.
But if somebody has cultivated like thisskill, which I mean, you, we always can
improve and like, you know, get better.
Yeah.
But this is like instant split second kindof like thing where Oh, anger is coming.

(33:53):
And maybe in my brain, I'm not evenlike aware that I took a pause, but
it just now becomes like a habit.
Is that like what that is like this?
I guess split second, not evenreaction because that was responding.
I would say when you get reallygood at this, and even when you're
good at it, different things set offdifferent levels of emotion, right?
And we get high, our brains gethijacked, but when you have this, it's

(34:17):
like this automatic for me, it's anautomatic question when I'm feeling
something strongly and lots of timesmy body is the first to tell me I'm
feeling something like my, my heartrate speeds up and when I'm like angry,
speeds up my chest gets a little tight.
And I know that I'm like on theverge of exploding is the wrong word.
I'm not really an explosive person,but like not being able to not

(34:40):
say exactly what I'm thinking.
Right.
Like that's, I can feel that coming.
And when I feel it, I I'm ableto go really quickly into like,
okay, what, why am I angry?
Like, what about this is making me angry?
What is being challenged in terms of myvalues, who I am, what I want to happen
in the world that's making me so angry,because then I take different actions

(35:02):
usually where it's like, oh, I'm reallyangry about this because it feels unfair.
And I'm concerned about this child safety.
Let's say I saw.
Someone yelling at a kid.
I don't know.
And then I'm like, Oh, okay.
So what I'm really concerned about isthis child safety and how, what action
do I want to take versus like blowingup and yelling at the person in the

(35:23):
context of like a work environment.
If I'm going to facilitate atraining, I will get a little
bit of anxiety and I've learned.
And so now that anxiety, like I feelit and it's there and I know it's
always going to be there, but I knowit's there because I care deeply about
it and what I'm teaching and I wantit to be understood, and I want the
people to get it like I want whoeverI'm instructing to get value out of it.

(35:46):
And so, because I know that that's whatthat emotion is telling me, then I'm
just take the steps to go okay, I'vegot my objectives for this session.
I know what we're going after.
I know what's mostimportant to me again, like.
Have clear goals on here's whatI want folks to understand.
So then if the session gets off track,which happens frequently, I, I no

(36:07):
longer have stress about it gettingoff track because I'm focused on the
goal of what I'm trying to accomplish.
Right.
So I just walked through the process alittle bit, but it's basically recognizing
emotion, understand what the emotionsTelling you what's the function of that
emotion, which if in relationship, likeif your feelings get hurt, the function

(36:28):
of that emotion is telling you thatyou're not feeling valued, maybe, or
you're not getting the same responsefrom someone that you were hoping for.
Right?
And then you can take intentional action.
Yeah, that looks different and comingback to like the cultural piece and
the feelings of lost and like wherethat confidence come from comes from.

(36:49):
I think part of it is when I do feelanxiety about about where I am frequently,
it's because I want to feel like I belong.
Like that's important to me.
That's not necessarily where theanxiety comes from for other people.
And that's why this emotionalagility is so important.
But because a lot of that is like,I want to feel like I belong and
I want, I don't ever, I want otherpeople to feel like they belong to.

(37:10):
So I don't want to like offendanyone or hurt feelings or
do something inappropriate.
Okay.
Well now I understand that.
And so, because of that,I ask more questions.
I approach things alittle bit differently.
I maybe sit back a little bit moreand observe initially, like there's
different actions I take because.
I've got those emotions that arelike, you want to belong and you want

(37:32):
other people to feel like they belong.
And that's where those feelingsof anxiety can come from.
And then because of that, rather thanlike maybe reacting in different ways,
which at one point I think my anxiety waslike, just don't go into that situation.
And then you won't have to feel that way.
Smart, right?
It's like, okay, but then I'm missingout on all these great experiences.

(37:53):
So I got to figure out somethingdifferent to do with that, with
that emotion and that anxiety.
Okay, so then for me, I guess emotionalself awareness and agility is coupled
with just like self awareness ingeneral, because Yeah, you have to
know like what your emotions aretrying to tell you and like when
these specific emotions arise, likesituations, instances and all of that.

(38:16):
And then also at the same time, knowmore about yourself because like
what you just described was okay.
I know anxiety is telling me.
I'm a little nervous orI care a lot about this.
And then on top of that, the otherlayer is your self awareness of,
okay, so that means I need to comein with like, you know, clear goals

(38:36):
for myself so I feel less anxiety,which I mean, this is super important.
I think in general.
And I feel like you can't haveself awareness without like the
emotional self awareness or yeah.
And emotional agility piece.
Yes.
And I feel like you can't havethose without really understanding
what your values are and what'smost important to you, which
those look different for everyone.

(38:58):
Yeah.
Um, my, my big two would belike curiosity and belonging.
And so those come up for me all the time.
So I make choices based on those,whereas that may be not, you know, if
those aren't your values, if your valueis harmony, that may look different
than what my value, you know, Then howI show up in the actions that I take.

(39:21):
Interesting.
So question about all of this.
What is, I guess, the biggestmisconception that you see
around emotional self awarenessand agility within your clients
or just humans, the world?
, I think there's probably two big onesand they like get on my last nerve
and, and there's some pretty prominentthought leaders who sometimes share

(39:45):
these things and they make me ragey.
One is emotions.
are not bad or good.
Like that's number one.
It's not about it.
Uncomfortable.
Sure.
An emotion can be uncomfortable.
I do not love when I feel angry.
It is not a comfortable feeling for me.
Yes.
It is also not bad.
It is data.
So the fact that emotionsare data is really important.

(40:08):
And the other thing is, Theconcept that like managing your
emotions to a lot of people meansI'm going to not have emotions.
I'm going to control my emotions.
And that's just not possible.
Like you can't not have emotions.
I mean, okay.
Psychopath different level, right?
Like clinical different, different,but for the average population.

(40:31):
You can't not have emotions, and sotrying to not have them, which doesn't
work, creates a lot of additionalproblems because then you deny that
you're feeling that way, which meansyou can't actually take action.
That's going to help becauseyou're denying it completely.
And that denial, like you'reshoving it in, you're stuffing
it down, and then you have.

(40:52):
coping skills that you develop, a lotof which are not actually helpful.
They're detrimental, right?
And so they are not helpingyou get what you want.
So that's a big one is going, weall have emotions and you're not
going to stop that from happeningand they are not good or bad.
They're data.
So if we know that they're comingand we know that their data and

(41:15):
that they happen, then you're in atotally different space around it
around like, okay, I have this data.
What do I want to do with it?
Versus like, I shouldn't feelthere's no shouldn't feel.
Yeah.
You don't get to do that.
So when I see like thought leaderstalking about like emotional regulation
in the truest sense, my view isemotional regulation is recognizing

(41:38):
your emotions and then taking theactions that you want to take.
I think a lot of people takeemotional regulation as being
like, I can control my emotions.
Yeah.
And, and you can't, you can controlwhat you do with your emotions, the
actions you take, that your emotionsare going to be your emotions.
Over time is, I feel like as you getmore comfortable with certain emotions,
even the uncomfortable ones, then itfeels less emotional in quotes, right?

(42:02):
Yeah.
It's still, the emotion is still coming.
You're still having it.
Hmm.
Yeah.
So I see that a lot.
Um, I think in like the personaldevelopment space to where
people are like, regulate youremotions or control your emotions.
And I think that is placed a lot on likeanger and maybe potentially another one
that is like a considered a bad emotion.

(42:23):
But I see that a lot where it's like,Oh, you have to like control your anger.
Again, if you are like, ifsomebody is Physically abusive.
That's like a whole other separateconversation, but like anger itself.
I've seen people will be like,okay, regulate that control that
because you don't want to likehave an outburst, which I also get.
But then I love like how you framed itto of when you're trying to like manage

(42:46):
your emotions or regulate them, it endsup like, people kind of just take it
as, okay, I just don't have emotions.
And then when I go home and I'm likeby myself, I'll have my emotions later.
Well, and as you were just talking thatregulate what I thought of is it's not
regulating emotions that we want to do.
It's processing effectivelyprocessing our emotions.

(43:07):
And I feel like that.
Language would be so much better servicebecause anger is a really useful emotion.
It tells us that something isbutting up against our values
and what's important to us.
And so just shoving that away or tryingto like stuff it down is not helpful.
Also, violent outbursts,not helpful, right?

(43:27):
But It is telling you something.
So then you can figure out, okay,what action do I want to take in
response to this and figuring outhow to process emotions in a way
that's going to best serve you?
Yeah.
Because something that you mentionedtoo, about like, we all have our
own coping mechanisms and some ofthese coping mechanisms that were
developed in circumstances thatmaybe you, we don't live anymore.

(43:52):
I'm thinking about my coping mechanism of.
I like I self isolate sometimeswhen I feel like bad, which is funny
because I saw on TikTok that when ifyour love language is like quality
time, then the thing that you dois like, remove it from yourself.
And I'm like, Oh, my gosh, it's true.
But that's a coping mechanismthat isn't helpful for me.

(44:12):
And I still notice myself doingit because I haven't maybe like
process through that emotion.
Or kind of pause long enough to belike, what is this emotion trying
to tell me, which then I mean, sinceI'm living with my partner, it's
most of the time I like self isolate.
And he's like, what's wrong?
He's like, okay, well, we'vebeen together for like 8 years.

(44:33):
Um,
I know that's not true.
I know that's a lie.
So I'll be here whenever youlike, finish your little pity
party and we can talk about it.
I'm like, okay.
And, you know, you mentioning TikTokreminded me, I saw a really interesting
one the other day talking about, we shouldnot only talk about our love languages,
but we should talk about our, I think shesaid, maybe anger languages or like hate

(44:56):
languages, but basically like how youshow up when you are feeling upset and
what you need in different circumstances.
And I thought it was so interestingbecause in certain circumstances you
may need to walk away and have space.
Yeah.
That may be a coping mechanism.
It may also just be, which-you know, coping strategies are
not necessarily good or bad.

(45:16):
It just depends on the outcomes you want.
That may not be the best coping strategyin that situation, but it might be, maybe
you just do need time alone to process.
And I just love that concept becauseI think it helps with that emotional
processing of like, what do youneed in those moments when you
are feeling uncomfortable emotionsthat you need to process through
what's going to be most helpful.

(45:37):
I love that.
I'm going to look that up on TikTok.
Now I know that TikTok is basically asearch engine ish, um, I can just type
in anything and it just pops up for me.
Um, okay.
So last question around emotionalself awareness and agility is,
uh, how can someone start withemotional self awareness and agility?
And I always like to divide this into liketwo sections, um, because sometimes people
share lots of tangible tactical tips.

(45:59):
And then in the process of developingwhatever these skill sets are, we
go through like a lot of mental,emotional, spiritual changes.
So what could be tangibletactical for people to start with?
And then what about the mental,emotional, spiritual side?
Okay.
From a tangible tactical, and I will sayin the business, La'kita, my business

(46:23):
partner and I use this all the timealso, number one is just starting- is
just noticing, like starting with justwriting down if that works for you,
making a note, but noticing when you'refeeling an emotional response to something
and then actually asking the question,okay what, what is the function of this

(46:43):
emotion, both comfortable, happy, quote,unquote, happy emotions and uncomfortable,
quote, unquote, not so happy emotionson both ends because it's all good data.
So just that initial, initialnoticing and awareness puts you
in a space of understanding.
It's not just that you're going torespond to this, like the emotions not

(47:05):
going to make you take action, right?
You're going to notice the emotion andthen you create that little bit of space.
I think that from a mental, emotional,spiritual point of view, I think one of
the biggest things with this is like,you almost don't get to just have the
freedom of acting anymore on your emotionsbecause you do have that new awareness.

(47:27):
And sometimes that can actuallyfeel a little bit like frustrating.
Cause it's like, well, why am I being sothoughtful about this and everyone else?
Good to show up howeverthey want to show up.
And I miss when I just like gotangry or whatever it was versus
having that additional awareness.
It's kind of like that SpiderMan quote with great power
comes great responsibility.
It's like noticing your emotions ispowerful and having that awareness.

(47:52):
And then you do have that responsibility.
And I think.
Sometimes for myself, like I have higherlevels of kind of disappointment in myself
when I'm not showing up how I want to.
And then I have to process those emotions.
That's a little bit of a cycle,but it can be a little bit jarring.
And also you start to notice inother people too, when they're

(48:14):
not processing their emotions orthey're responding in a certain way.
And so shifts your relationshipsa little bit in that.
I know, ask a lot of different questions.
Like if someone's reallyupset, like, okay, what, tell
me what you're upset about.
And I'm like, kind of get annoyingwith how deep I go into that.
Like, okay, but why, but why, butwhy, um, to really get to that point.

(48:38):
So I feel like as you embark on thisjourney, it kind of shifts your whole
perspective and it can be a little bitof a like, uncomfortable experience.
It can put you in a little bitof that lost feeling of like, Oh,
I've got all this new informationand what do I do with it?
Yeah.
And also something too, that yousaid about like relationships.
I think I'm thinking about it withlike my family or something like that.

(48:59):
Like, Oh, I'm noticing this now.
Like you were saying too,about like Spider Man, because
I'm noticing it and maybe.
My family's not going to say anything now.
I need to be that person tojust question or decide, okay,
I'm going to just leave it.
And then no, or decide for myself, like,okay, if I'm going to leave it, I also

(49:22):
need to be okay with just letting it go.
Yeah.
And not like holding resentment towardsthem because I didn't approach it.
And then also, if I do decide to approachit, understand, okay, what is the next
step after that, whether it's like familyor even like close friends, or maybe with
my partner, like, That's like, And why?
Okay, what is this?
Or am I just going to let it slide?
And we're just not going to talk about it.

(49:42):
Well, and that, I think that ownershipand personal responsibility in what you
just described is so important because thenumber of times I will talk to someone,
whether it's a client or just friends inconversation, and they haven't expressed
how they felt, but then they're upset thatsomeone's not responding to how they felt.

(50:03):
And it's like, well, if you don't expressit, They don't necessarily know it.
So it's a little unfair tohold them responsible for it.
And so, yes, exactlythat, like that awareness.
And if you are not going to sayanything, that's your choice.
And it's totally a valid choice in a lotof situations and it will have a result.
And that result is because of your choice.

(50:26):
Yep.
Hmm.
All of these things thatI'm like, Oh, that's a lot.
Okay.
Okay.
Keep going.
Um, though I, I do want to ask about.
Um, leaving your religion becausebefore you mentioned that you were
a missionary, uh, you were Mormon.
Um, I don't know if we actually saidthat you left your religion earlier.
I have left my religion.
Yeah.
So now I think I said I was Mormon.

(50:48):
Yeah.
I am no longer, nolonger practicing Mormon.
Yes.
Yes.
So I'm curious, uh, when did youdecide to leave the religion and
what was that process like for you?
You know, I'm going to jump into this,but as I'm thinking about this too, this
is almost like two other countries, notreal countries I've lived in, but like
Mormon culture was my whole experienceuntil I was 37 ish a long time.

(51:13):
So it has not been, um, it's justbeen in the past like eight years.
So I, I was kind of on my way out,I would say, when I was living
in Asia, more so in Hong Kong.
And the final decision was actually myoldest nephew came out to me and I was

(51:34):
already kind of struggling a littlebit and maybe not believing so much and
having some cultural things, et cetera.
And that I think put me in a positionwhere I just felt like for me
personally, it did not work anymorefor me to be part of this religion that
I was doing some mental gymnastics tomake work like, Oh, they don't hate.

(51:58):
gay people, but also you can't be gayin like a relationship and still be in
good standing with the church, right?
And those things justdidn't work for me anymore.
Um, and that, so that was kind ofthe final, okay, I'm done with this.
But it was a process overall,because 37 years and something

(52:21):
that I truly believed in.
You don't just like happen one day, maybe,maybe you do, depending on the experience.
For me, it was not just a one day change.
I'm going to change this becauseit's not only your belief system.
It's also my entire community,my entire family living overseas.
One of the things that made it mucheasier for me was I knew I would

(52:42):
have that Mormon community overseas.
Like I would have an expat community.
So I didn't have somewhere that feltlike I belonged, which is so important
to me right from the beginning.
So even as I was living in Hong Kong,I was pretty much done, but I still was
going and part of the community becauseit was my community- my friends.
And there are lots of people I knowwho stay in Mormonism even after they

(53:05):
don't necessarily believe becauseLosing that community is just too
much, especially if their spouse isstill in and believing and they're,
you know, kids and all those things.
So it was definitely a processand slowly over time kind of
figuring those things out.
And I went through a big, likefeeling like, well, if I, And this

(53:26):
goes back to this last feelingwas like, well, if I don't believe
in this, what do I believe in?
And so for a little while, I was in thespace of, well, I don't want to leave this
until I know what I'm going to, right.
And finally getting to a point oflike, it's okay for me to not know.
And that's the same thing kind of in life.
Like it's okay for me to not know whatis coming and that's an okay space to be.

(53:50):
And I think as humans,we want so badly to know
yes.
-Everything we want.
Some semblance of control, andI think letting go of that and
being able to say, Oh, it's okay.
If I don't know, gave me the freedomto just to finally be done and leave.
Yeah.
Wow.
So is there anything thatyou miss about Mormonism?

(54:14):
And like, when you left, was there grief?
Because I mean, this was like anidentity that you held for 37 years.
Um, yeah, I mean, lettingthat go is painful, I think.
Yes.
Yes.
It, no, it definitely is.
I don't know that it's true.
It is for everyone.
I feel like it probably is, but,and I've talked to a lot of people.

(54:34):
For me, in terms of what I miss, theredefinitely is that community piece.
And we have not talked about this,even though this is like my whole
personality now, , um, Pickleballhas been kind of that replacement.
Um, I, in some ways from a communitypoint of view, because I can go, in

(54:58):
fact, I was just in San Jose last weekfor work, which is not where I live and
looked up online, like where places playpickleball found this place that had
actually just opened, had like 20 courts.
Went in to open play instantly wasplaying pickleball with people.
I'd never met before, right?
Like instant community.
I'm sure if I had not been therefor work and doing other things, I

(55:20):
probably could have connected withsome of them and actually like gone
out for coffee or plan to meet up.
And so that community piece.
Everyone needs community and religionhas been a really great shorthand,
like shortcut to getting community.
Yeah.
And so that's one of the biggest things.
I also, I grew up singing, sayingin college, I miss singing.

(55:42):
I miss singing in church.
Like.
It's like these little things.
So, um, definitely that there's alsoat times a feeling of just, I am no
longer like at one point, my wholefamily, extended family, et cetera,
I come from a long line of Mormons.
Everyone was kind of in the sameboat and now there's a few of us who

(56:03):
aren't, but it definitely, and myfamily is wonderful and lovely and has.
My immediate family, as well asmy extended family are all great,
all respectful of my choice.
Like I've not had, which is notthe case for lots of people.
So I just want to say that.
And it still creates this little bitof a difference where if people are
talking, like, does everyone feelcomfortable talking about certain

(56:25):
things in front of me anymore?
Probably not.
Do I openly share all mythoughts about things?
Absolutely not.
Right.
And so it, it creates alittle bit of a shift there.
And that was definitely not,not so much something I missed,
but just something that's morecomplicated that I've left for sure.
Wow.
And so how long, if you did grief, wasthere like a time frame of grief or like

(56:53):
oh, like, okay, I'm just going to do this.
And then it's.
I'm good.
I just in general don't think there's evera time frame for grief like it just it
ebbs and flows and feels different there.
I definitely at timeswas in the anger phase.
And I still sometimes willget to that angry place.
And like a lot, there was grieffor like losing the community, but

(57:16):
there was actually a lot more grieffor like choices I made as part of
the community things I did that Iwould have I think done differently.
Um, there's also the positive sideof there's definitely things I did
that I would have done differently.
And I'm really glad Ididn't do them differently.
Yeah.
Like I'm glad I didn't startdrinking really young, right?

(57:36):
Like there's some things thatI think are great about it.
And there's so right.
Like I am who I am today because of that.
And so I will always appreciatemy upbringing for that.
And there were a lot of thingsabout my upbringing that make me
sad sometimes that I feel like.
I would have shown up alittle bit differently.
I would have not been so devastatedthat I didn't get married in my

(57:59):
twenties, which was a thing to get over.
Like for me, not true foreveryone, but for me, it was
like, no, one's choosing me.
Cause that was, you know, mywhole goal as a kid was like,
you get married and have kids.
So there was a lot, there still is a lotof grief about different things where
I'm like, well, maybe this would have.
Worked out differently or I would have hadthis different experience and also true.

(58:20):
I love my life and where it isnow and all of this is part of it.
Yeah.
Ooh.
Okay.
So I feel like we talked aboutthis maybe through slack of this
grief because I, Well, I left, Iwas raised Catholic during college.
I decided to be Catholicism.
And I think I came home and toldmy parents that I'm agnostic.
And they were like, excuse me, infront of my two younger sisters.

(58:42):
And they were like, what kind of anexample are you, blah, blah, blah.
Um, but I do think something that you justsaid applies to like the living abroad
as well of Oh, I have a lot of griefbecause like I could have had a life in
the United States and I don't know whatit could have looked like, but it could
have been just as wonderful and amazing.

(59:02):
And I could have hadlike different friends.
Um, the business couldhave looked different.
Um.
I don't know.
I could be living somewhereelse and I also love my life
that I've created over here.
And then sometimes I also think, whatif I move back to the United States?
And then I get sad because I'mlike, I would have to let go of
everything that I built over here.

(59:23):
Does it make sense to like, nowI'm in like this floating in
between of which one do I want?
And I've chosen here, but it is that,I guess, the grief of what could have
been, what could have trans Like, Idon't know how to describe it, but yeah,
what could have been, what isn't goingto be because of the choices, and...

(59:45):
The happiness I still have because ofmy choices and then like the sadness
that I have because of my choices.
Yay, duality.
No, it totally is duality.
And I, I honestly think life islike, if you feel things deeply
and like love people in places.

(01:00:06):
It also means your life's goingto be full of grief because we
can't be everywhere all the time.
We can't be with everyone all the time.
We have to make these choices.
And so it.
It is just that reminder, like, and Ithink about this, especially my mom passed
away when I was 18 and it's still right.
It's been years and I still miss my momand it's testament to the fact that I

(01:00:29):
adored her and she adored me and we have,you know, and so it's like, I almost
look at feeling grief as this like giftof sorts, because if you didn't love
where you had been or an experience orwhat something was like, You probably
wouldn't feel grief over losing it.
And so they kind of just go together.

(01:00:52):
And so I think I've made a lot of peace.
It doesn't mean that it isn't hard anduncomfortable and all those things.
I just feel like I've made a lot of peacewith grief because it's indicative of like
missing out on something there, of course,is grief for miss things that don't
necessarily mean it was a great situation.
Right.
And so there's nuance and right.
This is me.

(01:01:12):
I can't just say a blanketnuance and everything.
So, but a lot for me is like, Ihave grief about leaving Mormonism
because I did love my community.
I loved being able to be partof something bigger than me.
And so.
That's a great thing.
And I miss that.
And I don't believe in it.
And there are things that arereally problematic for me.

(01:01:34):
So it's not an option for me anymore.
Yeah.
Hmm.
So many things to go in.
But I feel like that's a wholeother podcast conversation.
So I will ask the last question aboutleaving your religion and then get
into the second to last question that Ialways ask folks, is there a lesson or
value that you have taken from Mormonismthat you're still learning about?

(01:01:55):
I guess, believing in today, even thoughyou're not like a practicing Mormon.
Did that question make sense?
Yes.
Okay.
Things that kind of basically thingsthat I've, I've taken with me.
Yes.
I definitely think that sense ofhelping community is always going
to be really important to me.
Um, as far as that.

(01:02:15):
You know, serving people,taking care of them.
I look for those opportunities.
There were often opportunities inpart of this Mormon community to like
take meals to someone, help them out,you know, just do different things.
And so that I think is a hugething that I am taking with me.

(01:02:35):
Also, just the overallindustriousness of Mormons.
Like-
what does that mean?
Like doing work, getting out there anddoing work and being industrious about it.
There's some, there's some unhealthysides of that and some shame, but
there's some great things about it too.
It's like, just go to work, right?

(01:02:56):
Like get up and go to work.
And that's something that Idefinitely got from Mormonism as well.
So...
I love these.
Thank you for sharing Chloe.
Yeah.
And okay, so last second lastquestion before we wrap up.
I've loved hearing your story, by the way.
What is a nuance since wetalk so much about nuance?

(01:03:17):
What is a nuance conversation?
You think we're not having enough of?
I'm not sure that I would.
Say it's a nuanced conversation,but I think it's just the nuance in
general of like, how often two thingsthat seem opposing can be true.
And I, I just, there'sso much divisiveness.
I feel like right now, especiallyin online spaces, because, because

(01:03:41):
it's hard to well representyourself in online spaces.
And I think.
If we were able to better admit thatwe don't know things like I believe
this thing and I'm not sure I want thisthing and I know that it's, it would
be challenging like that and part ofconversations that I feel like we just

(01:04:02):
do not have enough of, I feel likeit's getting better and people are
more capable of having those nuancedconversations or having those, like,
I feel like Understanding that you canfeel two things at the same time that
you can think two things at the sametime that aren't necessarily aligned
that we can agree on a lot of things anddisagree on other things like I don't

(01:04:27):
I just feel like there's not enough.
There's not enough conversation aroundthe nuance and who we are as people.
So I took that question and switched it.
It's not a nuanced conversation.
It's a conversation about nuance.
Um, I don't, I don't feel likethere's enough conversations
about nuance and differences and,and how we show up differently.
And that goes back to, I think wherewe started this as far as like my

(01:04:51):
experiences in different cultures andthere's not one right way to be there are
right ways to treat people, but there'snot one right way to be in the world.
Mmm.
I was all over the place for you.
Um, no, I loved it.
And, um, totally did like an unoreverse on me, but it was great.

(01:05:12):
Okay.
So before we fully wrap up theconversation, I love ending each
of my podcast episodes with eithera journaling prompt, exploratory
question, or an activity for peopleif they want to explore more.
So do you have journaling prompt,exploratory question, or an activity?
Doesn't have to be all three, something.
I think it's going to beall three actually, and one.

(01:05:32):
And I would say, journaling prompt,at the end of the day, what, if
any, big emotions did you notice?
And what did those emotions tell you?
I get curious about it.
So it's a little bit of an activity anda journaling prompt and coming with that
emotional awareness and agility piece.
And I think that is such a greatway to just start to connect

(01:05:57):
to yourself and your emotions.
I think as you know, those of uswho were raised and socialized.
female are socialized to noticethose things a bit more and
be okay with our emotions.
And so, and I think we havebeen told that we're emotional
and it's shameful in some ways.

(01:06:17):
And so doing this activity canreally help get out of that space.
And for any of your, you know,those who are socialized male
listeners, they're socialized, likehaving emotions is bad frequently.
And so this is an opportunity todo that same thing, recognize.
Emotions and start to be more awareof, like, the impact the world
is having on you what, what is.

(01:06:39):
What are your emotions telling you?
So that's probably,yeah, that's probably it.
I love that.
It was a three in one, y'all.
Uh, if you're listening to this,you can rewind, um, and write
that down so you can explore.
I will probably be doing thesame for tomorrow's journaling
prompt in the morning.
Um, but Chloe, thank you so, so muchfor joining and for sharing your story

(01:07:01):
and just really entertaining all ofthese questions that I had about like
everything, because I mean, We've knowneach other, I think, for now, a year
and a half to something like that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I feel like this is the first timethat I've actually had the chance to like
sit and really listen to your whole story.
A chunk of it.
A lot.
Yeah, but it was awesome.

(01:07:21):
I loved it.
So thank you so much for being here.
And is there anything that you areexcited about in the upcoming months?
And then where can people reach you ifthey want to connect with you further?
Perfect.
There are so many thingsI'm excited about.
Two big things from, uh, what, whatI do perspective, work perspective.
At CoCreate Work, we aredoing these intensives, one of

(01:07:42):
which is manager development.
So for folks who have smallerbusinesses, maybe you don't have
in house learning and development.
We will come in and work with you withyour culture on manager development.
And I love this one.
And what made me think of it isone of the courses that we do
frequently workshops is aroundemotional self awareness and agility.
And it truly is like a gamechanger for people to just

(01:08:05):
walk through the whole process.
The other thing I'm really excitedabout is we have our CoCreate
Work culture certification that iscoming out to help people do the
work that we do in companies, whichis not just manager development.
In fact, most of what we do isaround culture, business strategy,
how they all work together.
Systems.

(01:08:25):
Systems.
Yes.
The systems that help build that culture.
We have intensives around that, thatwe do ourselves with clients, but the
certification program is going to behelping other folks, even whether you're
in house, in a big organization, in like.
Talent or leadership development,or just a leader who wants
to get better at doing this.
Or if you're a business owner consultant,this is for you to help you take our

(01:08:51):
approach with our five components ofculture and apply them and know how
to work with teams and do really greatwork because we are so excited about the
future of work and helping leaders doit and bring it and all those things.
So those are the two thingsI'm really excited about.
Amazing.
I do think I'm really excited about theco create work culture certification.

(01:09:12):
I think it's going to be amazing,mainly because I think more people
are having conversations about it now.
And if you are in a leadershipposition or want to kind of like,
I guess, broaden your leadership,the certification would be awesome.
Yes, and like La'Kita, I like hebrings a social work background
systems background has so muchknowledge about business strategy.

(01:09:33):
I've got all this actual country, whichhelps in terms of building business
culture, because as we're thinking aboutit, and as we're teaching folks how to
do this, we are bringing that breadthof experience to folks and helping them
think about think about how they buildculture in an organization differently
for the future and with intention.

(01:09:54):
I love it.
Also, La'Kita is also
on the podcast.
Don't know which episode rightnow, but you can find her
interview somewhere along the way.
Eventually.
Yeah.
Yes.
And then you can reach us.
It's cocreatework.Com.
You can follow us onInstagram @CoCreateWork
you can follow me on Instagram.
It's.
It will be in the show notes.
It's @ChloeAndersen__, twounderscores, but my last name

(01:10:16):
spelled Danish in the Danish way.
So it's different with an E, not a no.
Yes.
So you can find us all the places.
Amazing.
Also, Chloe and Lakita have a podcastcalled the Co Create Work Podcast.
So I will link it in the show notes sothat you can listen to their episodes.
They talk a lot about leadership,personal development, and Culture
as well for your business andcompany and all of the things.

(01:10:39):
So yeah, all of, all of thatcan be found in the show notes.
Um, Chloe, thank you so much forjoining, um, and for waking up early.
I know it's early on your end.
Evening for me.
No, it's great.
And I was going to say, I was goingto say, I know sometimes with all
these different background things,people have more questions and feel

(01:11:00):
free to, to DM me on Instagram.
You can also find me onLinkedIn, send me a message.
I'm happy to, I'm happyto talk about any of it.
Oh, yeah.
Chloe loves talking about these things.
I love, like, chattingwith her about it, too.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, thank you, Chloe.
And to everybody else listening, thankyou for joining for this episode,
and we will see you in the next one.

(01:11:20):
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(01:11:42):
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