Charlie Sheen: Journey from chaos to sobriety.

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
How's it going? Good.
Good. Can you just give me like 1?
We'll get up, we'll get out just.
One, there we go, we good Booze or drugs,
bigger problem. Well, it was the 11 fueled the

(00:22):
other. How about the best time you guys
ever had together? Nobody OD, everybody got laid.
How about that? It was adrenaline, it was
anticipation. It was also not knowing if if I

(00:44):
was going to answer the door to gorgeous women or or handcuffs.
His fear was that the lifestyle at that level, at that pace,
that somebody would have died. What's your best guess as to how
you contracted HIV? I didn't have it before that and

(01:04):
then found out I had it right after that.
When people say sex with men, you immediately think of like
butt sex and it wasn't that. Was it the drugs that made you
curious? Or were you curious before the
drugs and the drugs gave you theconfidence?
Yeah, that's a good, that's a good question.

(01:26):
I wanted to start by talking about the book and the doc
first. How did the response compared to
what you were expecting? Well, I didn't have a lot of
expectations, really. Yeah, I, I had more.
Well, I guess there were fearfulexpectations.
There were stories that I had written about how it was going
to be perceived, consumed, digested, processed, you know,

(01:50):
criticized. But the ratio, I think, as they
tell me, has been in my favor. But the place I feel it the most
is like out in the world, because I'm not like scrolling
through comments and looking forthings.
And I'll, I'll read like a big print piece because I know what
went into it and how much time Ispent.

(02:10):
And, but, but I'm not watching all the on camera stuff that I
do. I'm not like trying to, you
know, dissect it, but I, but I am really inspired.
I'm I'm encouraged by the reaction just out in the world.
The common theme to to a lot of it is is courage and bravery,

(02:30):
you know, stuff like that. Just but that's, I think that's
nobody feels gypped, nobody feels short sheeted, you know,
they feel like, wow, OK, this dude sat down to like tell his
story and and and and did so andthen some, you know?
Yeah, so it is. The great news is I don't think

(02:54):
I ever have to do it again, you know, because that was one of my
goals to to in the middle of or,or approaching what has really
turned into kind of a reset moment.
You know, one of my goals was tojust kind of present all this
stuff and then just move forward.
And what makes you feel like it's a reset moment?

(03:15):
Because, and I say that because I was talking to Betsy, your
manager the other day and she mentioned you kind of felt like
it. It's your ticket back.
Because there's a lot of unanswered questions.
I, I think it, I think it closesa lot of circles that, that,
that we're still kind of lingering open.

(03:38):
Yeah. It, it just people, you know,
hearing a lot of stuff but neverreally hearing it from me.
And, and it's, and it's not about having the final word or
the last laugh or, you know, it's, it's just really about
you, you, you, you know, tellingthe stories in, in the way that
they actually happened instead of everybody else's version of

(04:01):
them. And you were kind of bouncing
around the idea of a book for a while, right?
I think you had a buddy that youknow many years ago was starting
to put some stuff on on paper before you even too.
Yeah, no. And he was, you know, pretty
decent guy, but we just were thewrong fit, you know, And so, and

(04:23):
then I would read the stuff thatin the stories I would tell and
I would read them. And it just, it never felt,
never felt authentic. You know, I don't think it ever
really can unless you're actually putting your pen to
your paper. And you deserve a ton of credit
for doing it yourself. But I, I should say, initially

(04:43):
it wasn't going to happen that way, that the publisher had
hired a ghost writer to start with you and explained the, the
disconnect in like the first chapter and then how quickly you
were able to then start doing ityourself.
Yeah, it was. It was actually a book doctor.

(05:05):
It was a person that was supposed to be there.
Just help me with structure and pacing and all that other stuff,
you know, and I was like, OK, all right, If that, if that's
what it's going to take just to put this thing in motion, I'm.
I'm fine with that. But as long as he's not there as
another writer. Yeah.
And, and I think it was, you know, there were some things
that that he pointed out that heintroduced early on that that I

(05:30):
think we're valuable. You know, I don't want to on the
guy, but it just as it kind of went along, it was it it it, it
got more obvious by the day thatthere was really only that that
there was room for only one voice on the page and that was
mine. Right.
And the reality is he could havebeen amazing, but you're doing

(05:51):
this once and you want it to be in your voice.
Yeah, and I and I and I didn't need to be questioned about
everything. And that's what started to
happen. Are you sure you want to include
that? Are you sure?
And, and it would have been cool.
It's like, OK, but all right, soyou were there too.
Oh, wait a minute. You weren't there at all for one
second of any of it. So right.

(06:14):
So that, that, that that got a little prickly.
Because it probably sapped some of the enjoyment of.
Oh, absolutely, Absolutely. Yeah.
And so and you know, we parted on on great terms and all that.
And, and but then when I finallygot to really exerience my own
rhythm and, and justice that I was that there, there, there was

(06:36):
1 captain at the helm and that was me.
And it was, it was, it was challenging and exciting and,
and daunting, you know, because there, there there's that
feeling like I would send an incredible editor, Amy Bell, you
know, and I and I would send each chapter as it was finished.
And I would get glowing reviews,you know, and, and lean into

(06:56):
this. Let's trim some of that.
But yeah, amazing, amazing. Keep going, keep going.
But then the next day, what am Istaring at?
You know, a blank screen and. What was your process?
It was I started with like a really broad outline and then
paired that down. And then as I told the stories

(07:16):
that I felt were the, the, the ones that weren't just important
to me, but that were entertaining to read, You know,
I wasn't going to present like ajournal or a diary.
You know, I wanted to take the reader, the, the audience really
on a, on a journey. And So what I started doing was
a lot of handwritten notes aboutthe, the outline for that

(07:40):
chapter. And then I would recognize
things that that that could be, as I got deeper into it, that
could be called back stuff that I could, I could connect from
the past to the future to the present, to the stuff that that
sort of followed me either cosmically or symbolically or
just mysteriously or creepily, you know?

(08:01):
And so, so yeah. And it, I, I, I just think I
gained more confidence as the process unfolded.
Was it easy to remember? Yes, it was.
It was. Yeah.
And the stuff I couldn't, I didn't rely on a lot of other
people to fill in those blanks because then it's their story.
The only time that I had to function as a journalist and not

(08:21):
an author was when I had to shake my parents down for, like,
all the early New York stuff andall that.
Because I can't, you know, thosememories, you know I talk about
in the book that those only exist from parental reminisce
and and dinner table stories andchatter.
And did they enjoy that? They did, yeah.

(08:41):
They were really helpful with that stuff.
But once I you know, you get to a certain age in your life and
that's when the memories start to form and are still accessible
so. OK, so this is a little too
inside baseball, but I know there's a lot of conversation
about whether to release the book or the doc.
First. You initially had one opinion

(09:04):
that you kind of later felt likemaybe that if I had to do it
over again, I probably would have released the book first.
But then they came out like within like 6 hours of each
other, just on a different date,right?
Yeah, that was interesting. I initially felt that the doc
would be a just a wonderful companion piece to the book and

(09:27):
also kind of set the stage for it and be a great endorsement
for it. And then a lot of the stories
that I that I had agreed to do that were like really cool, big
splashy press pieces. They then said, those are dead
if the doc comes out first, because then they can no longer

(09:49):
say for the first time ever speaking about this, this, this
and this, you know, so then that's kind of how we had to
start negotiating and finagling and, and like that.
But it's not I, I didn't really,I couldn't call Netflix.
I'm like, all right, here's the new date.
I couldn't tell Schuster, right?Here's the thing.
At that point, they're they're going to do what they're going

(10:10):
to do. And I I think it worked out
pretty good though, So I want totake you.
Way back to when you were a kid and growing up, but I wanted to
kind of start by talking about your dad.
How do you think his poor upbringing impacted you guys

(10:30):
early on? Yeah, I don't want to, like,
judge his upbringing or criticize it, but he didn't want
us to experience the same kind of struggles.
And those were just basic daily needs, you know, and I, I, I do,
there's a line in the book whereI say that, you know, Dad grew
up so poor that his idea of the,of the high life was, you know,

(10:54):
having matching socks, you know?And so, yeah, I think he, he has
a, has a drive and a, and a, anda determination and a focus.
And that moxie I talk about in the book that he was going to do
whatever he had to, you know, nomatter what to give his family a
much better experience than he had.

(11:16):
You know, I mean, his mom died when he was 11, you know.
And so that's just take that piece.
Where do you go from there? So I can't pretend to know what
that would be like or would havebeen like.
But yeah, he knew he was really good at what he did and was
going to keep getting better at what he wanted to keep doing

(11:36):
and, and was always family first.
He wasn't one of these guys. And like, all right, I'm going
to Spain. I'll see you in three months.
He was like, all right, we're all going to Spain.
All right, we're going to Italy.We're going to the Philippines,
we're going to Mexico, we're going to the moon.
You know, he would have his deals structured in such a way
that we were, you know, we wouldget extra tickets and hotel

(11:56):
stuff. Which had to be the coolest
thing ever when you guys were. Yeah, it wasn't.
It wasn't because you get to a certain age and school is
actually fun for a minute and you're making friends and then
it's just like, it's like you'rejust kind of abducted, you know,
by aliens, and you just vanish one day and then you wake up and
you're in a different part of the universe.

(12:19):
But it was cool culturally. It was, I think, eye opening to
to just get a sense that the world was a lot bigger than then
Malibu, you know? By the way, what was the deal
with sleeping bags in? Yeah, no, but that's one of
that's one of those details thatEmilio reminded me of when I
talked about that first place onPoint Dume.

(12:40):
It was on Birdview Ave. And he said, yeah, dude, I don't
know if you remember, but we were all in one room for a year
in sleeping bags. And why?
Because dad wasn't making the kind of dough that everybody
just assumes he he was and he was job to job check to check.
And so you're renting places and, you know, food was more

(13:02):
important than actual beds and abunch of kids is sleeping.
Hey, hey, you know, we're we're we're camping for a year.
So yeah, it's just this is what we had to do, you know?
You called the Apocalypse Now the greatest movie ever made.
Correctly, I, I, I I labeled it as such, yeah.

(13:23):
What makes it that for you? There's no computers involved.
The elements that had to be endured, the performances, the
storytelling, the insanity, the fact that every time you see it,
you see something different, something new or, or something

(13:43):
effects you differently. It's a film that could never be
made today. And if and if and if it did, we
would feel the, the, the, the helicopters wouldn't have any
weight. You know, they try to do this
thing. I went to the movies years ago
and I saw the latest King Kong thing of, of version.

(14:05):
And they, they they try to do anapocalypse thing sweeping
through these jungles and. Right.
And it just wasn't. I mean, yeah, it looked cool,
but I, but I knew that nobody's life was in danger.
Yeah. And just what, you know, the
country's in the middle of a civil war.
You know, Dad has a heart attack.
Brando shows up £300. I mean, it's just like one thing

(14:26):
after another. And how Francis, like, kept it
together, you know, and he shot 1,000,000 feet of film.
And that's like actual film. And somebody's like going
through in an editing room in the freaking jungle.
You know, there's some story somebody told me about a lady
that he had a meeting with or had a night with or something.

(14:47):
And she, like, left with two reels of film during Apocalypse
and held it hostage and said, unless this is or this happens,
you're not getting that those canisters back.
But those are just some of the reasons why I I place Apocalypse
atop that mantle, you know? You said Brando's brain was kind

(15:10):
of wired differently. Yeah, it was.
Yeah, for your. Kind of experience what you see.
As an 11 year old or a 10 year old, he did that thing where he
can draw a circle in the air with one hand while drawing a
square on his chest with the other at the same time.
And then he would say change andthen the that would become the
square and this will become the circle.

(15:33):
And have you ever tried doing that?
It's literally impossible. And he just did it effortlessly,
which showed that somehow, however, it's wired in his, I
think Sean described it as the, the, the muscle on the top
floor. His top floor was pretty
magical. It was pretty and it was a trip

(15:54):
to like experience that at that age.
And you know, you're even aware of that as a kid, though.
Yeah, I mean, yeah, and and and not like his whole filmography,
obviously, or, or or his, you know, his historical place in
Hollywood, but just those moments on on, you know, like

(16:16):
Kalaria. Yeah, I know there was something
really, really special about him.
And I do write in the book that I think he, he, he liked
children better than adults because they, he, he, he was
pretty convinced that they understood him better.
You wrote about your dad. His his body may have been with

(16:37):
us. The guy we called dad was not.
Yeah. Elaborate a little bit on that
if you don't mind. Sure, I just got a little
nicotine in in in my muscle up top.
How often do you use that? A lot it actually counts your

(16:58):
puffs, but yeah then you can clear it and I usually I
stopped. I just clear it without really
charting the progress. You smoked. 2 packs a day for 33
years. Yeah, I was.
Yeah, I I smoked like I meant it.
And you started in the Philippines?

(17:19):
On Platoon. Yeah, Yeah.
Because I didn't smoke as a teenager.
He was an athlete, you know, Andso it never.
And I would see it and it didn'tfit in.
It smelled bad. It, you know, Ramon smoked and I
was like, what are you doing? And but then Oliver, you know,
wanted the character to smoke. And there's a story in there
about Johnny Depp, you know, andwe were like 1 foxhole apart in
that training camp. And I would smell it, you know,

(17:41):
and and then you but you'd see picture of backlit Johnny Depp
at like 22, like a cigarette in the Philippine jungle.
I mean, is that it doesn't get alot cooler, right?
And I'm like, all right, I'm probably not going to achieve
that. But if I get something close to
that, then it's a win. Johnny's a trip man, good dude.
And and he would start offering them, you know, come on, you

(18:05):
know, you want 1, you know, hardguy to say no to.
But then, yeah, it just, it was just one of those things that
just found it's it found its traction and took hold, you
know? The rest is history.
Yes, but yeah, but this, I'm actually one of the guys that

(18:26):
uses the vapor responsibly because I think that's kind of
what it was created for people to get off, stay off or never
start cigarettes, I think. You think you ever stopped
completely? Probably, yeah.
I have that guy's number in my phone for years now.
Carrie, you know, the, the, the smoking hypnotist.

(18:47):
Really. Yeah, he's the guy.
Like you go to him once and you're done.
So and he's like, you know, 1/2 hour from here.
So I know that's like right there and available.
I just haven't, haven't, haven'tspent that 30 minutes getting
there yet, you know? Making steps though.
Yeah, and my daughter Sam, read a book that promises the the
Alan Carr Quit method promises when you finish this book, you

(19:12):
will be done with nicotine. And she, she had a surgery
coming up and she did it and shewas done.
Just, she said it just magicallyvanished.
I have that book. I'm about halfway through it.
How long is it taking you to getit halfway throughout?
Two years, yeah, you know, page a night all.
Right, so I was asking about that.

(19:34):
Yeah, yeah. That that's was specifically
referring to his birthday as 36th.
I think it was during Apocalypse.
Yeah. And we didn't know what we were,
what we were rolling into. We were just going to, you know,
show up on his lunch break and just cut the cake and give him a
hug and cut out, you know, But that's the day they were filming

(19:55):
that famous hotel opening sequence.
You know, that's another thing about Apocalypse.
Like start a movie like that. Like, go ahead, like set a movie
up like that. And then it's like you've made a
promise to the audience that this is.
All right here, here's what you're in for and and you have
to deliver on what and just thatexperience that that you've just

(20:17):
witnessed in the 1st 5 minutes. You know, it's pretty heady
stuff, isn't it? What made is it called the
Hearts of Darkness? Yeah, the documentary.
What made that so hard to watch for you?
Because it was the first time that anybody peeked behind that
curtain. And I think, I don't know how I
phrased it in the book that it was Francis's wife was Eleanor

(20:42):
and she something about put dad's.
I don't know if I use the word trauma, his behaviors, whatever
on full display for the world toconsume or to finally consume.
And that included us, because ifyou weren't in the room, you
didn't know. And so we saw that.

(21:04):
It was like, oh damn, it went there.
You. Know like what what were you
seeing? And it was I could.
See that it, I could see that ithad nothing to do with the
scene. It had nothing to do with any of
the, you know, whatever the goals were cinematically or
credibly for that particular day.
It had everything to do with hisfather, you know, because he had

(21:26):
died close to that, you know, or, or not long after, not long
before that. And so I think he was mourning
him and just feeling, you know, there's something also about
being that freaking far from home, you know, and that
isolated and that detached. There's a feeling of of, and
I've experienced myself it myself as well, that things

(21:52):
think things are you, you you get a little more sensitive to
of stuff that that wouldn't affect you as deeply back on the
home front, you know? Why do you think that is?
Because help is help is is is isa long ways away.

(22:12):
It's just how I see it, you know?
So I think that there was a combination of the stress of the
movie, The loss of his father, you know, tons of booze,
obviously. But I think the booze unlocks
things that are already sort of brewing or percolating or, you
know, needing some type of release, you know?

(22:33):
How about what you remember fromyour very first silent Super 8
film camera? I, it's, I mean, I literally
have memories of the Ireland experience with that move Zoom
2000. And it was, you know, we're
fascinated by it. And as I, as I write in the

(22:55):
book, it wasn't about like making, you know, boring
documentary shooting the countryside and the culture.
It was about like, all right, now we have, we have one piece
of equipment that is, you know, it's, it's, it's not as big or
as fancy, but it's, it's, it's what dad uses to do his job.
And this job that we've been, you know, up close and personal

(23:18):
observing, digesting it just, you know, and not really like
planning, like, oh, cool, that'swhat I want to do one day.
Like not even close to anything like that.
But it wasn't, it wasn't a hobbyat first.
It was a passion. As soon as we knew that we could
document things and create stories and play characters, and

(23:40):
we're just copying, you know, ifhe was building houses, we'd be
probably banging nails somewhere, you know.
So it was kind of like that. But I do remember that Emilio
shoots me or I don't know how hesubdued me, but I had to.
I had to roll down and die in the shot.
But my shirt came up and my backwas laying in a patch of

(24:02):
stinging nettles, and it startedburning and itching and starting
to spread and. And he hadn't cut yet.
And I remember not wanting to ruin the shot.
At 7:00 or 8:00. Yeah, and I finally was just
like this. I'm out, you know, and just
started screaming and running and and then he did say you,

(24:22):
you, you ruined the shot. But there is that theme in the
book about, you know, pain is temporary films forever.
And the whole neighborhood kind of got in.
They did. Right.
Yeah, and Sean Penn was even. Sean was there the.
Big early supporters. Sure.
Oh yeah. How'd you make the hula hoop
Steadicam? Well, I didn't, it wasn't.

(24:47):
It was literally how I describe it.
It was surgical tubing that we used to buy at the at the
supermarket, you know, because we would make it, we would use
it for our wrist rockets. And so, yeah, anything that can
be turned into a weapon, we would, we would, we would find a
way. But yeah, I thought that it was
strong enough to support the camera in the middle of the hoop

(25:10):
if it was just being walked. It was a pretty good, pretty
good in concept, right? Yeah.
But the weight of it kind of pulled it outside of the hoop.
And then I knew that. Yeah, it was.
It was a freaking mess. It was a mess.
You'd assess your academic performance how it.
Was a complete disaster. Yeah, I mean, it was OK for a

(25:31):
minute. Why was it OK for a minute?
Because it was still the experience, was still fun, and
it didn't. Through middle school.
Yeah. But then, yeah, high school,
everything changed. It just got a place was too big.
There's too many people, there were too many, too much
responsibility. They were asking a lot, you

(25:54):
know, and, and and insisting that we spend so much time
trying to learn a bunch of that I knew would never apply or
matter anywhere else except in those classrooms.
And I always felt like it was just, it was just busy work and
that whole thing. Well, it's important to learn
how to learn. It's also important to learn,
learn to, you know, live how to live, you know?

(26:15):
And, yeah. So that, that, that.
And then I got the car, you know, you get a car and suddenly
you're not at the mercy of wherethe bus stops or tells you to
get off. Yeah.
No, that that opened up a whole new part of the universe for me,
you know? You were close to passing
biology. I was right.

(26:36):
No. Well, biology is the one I
needed to stay on the team, Stayon the baseball team.
I mean, you had you played it a little differently.
Yeah, had I had I like. Sat at the desk for.
Another 20 minutes maybe. Yeah, yeah.
Had I had I gotten like a like a81 or a 74 instead of 100%?

(26:57):
When I was reading that in the book, I can completely picture
the situation. I mean, is it that visible to
you now when you look back on the moment?
I'm still baffled how I didn't miss intentionally one question.
It doesn't get a lot more stupid.

(27:20):
I don't have a fancy word for it.
Yeah, I and it and there was connected to this big graph that
everybody else drew on the back of the test and mine.
It was started and then just like scribbled through like that
part doesn't matter. But then 20 questions came from
that graph that you had to build.
Yeah, no, it was a mess. So yeah, that killed the

(27:44):
baseball dream. And then, well, you know the
rest with the with that last final, you know.
I mean, I guess reality is the baseball dream.
Probably the best thing that could have happened was it, I
think, not working out because it gave you the ability to
pursue this other childhood. Sure.

(28:04):
Or the motivation to at least. Yeah, yeah.
It is pretty ironic, though, that the one class that, you
know, decided whether, you know,I get a diploma or not was
English. And then there I am writing a
story about that in a book that I'm writing.
I just wish Missus Farmer would still alive to read it.

(28:25):
And you did end up getting the diploma?
I did, yeah. On The Tonight Show with Jay
Leno, Yeah. They finally realized enough
time had gone by. I was only a credit and a half
short. And they were like, just give it
to him. Get him out of our hair, you
know? MGM and The Karate Kid How about
when you look back on your dad'sadvice today, how do you reflect

(28:49):
on that? It's it's good today.
It sucked in the moment. How so?
Because it it killed a an opportunity that that could have
been really life changing. You know, I shouldn't say it
sucked in the moment. It was probably the right thing
in the moment just looking back.But we can't look forward in the
moment, right? And even when we look back, we

(29:11):
can't change anything about it. So you can't have regret because
unless you just want to stay stuck in that piece of time,
it's probably a good thing. I don't know that I would have
kept the job once it started because I didn't have enough
experience to take on something that required, you know, that,

(29:34):
that those, all those nuances that, that how so?
Well, if you look at the performance, you're going to
look at what Ralph did with it. It's, it's, it's a, it's a
fantastic performance. You can't really picture anyone
else doing it. And so it's just one of those
roles that I don't know that the, the film would have been as

(29:55):
successful. I don't know that it would have,
I just would have had a slight, a different take on it, you
know, and then, then, then what he brought to it.
But he was already coming off ofa couple of decent size films
and had the the confidence and the experience to to deliver on
that one that I that I didn't. It would have been yours, you

(30:15):
just had a conflict with a lesser.
Project with the grizzly thing, yeah.
Your dad, to his credit, said your word's your word.
Yeah, no, which which which was great advice that one big film
won't carry you as far as a, as a, as a, as a noble reputation
in this business, you know it'd.Be hard for him as a father
though too, when he's sure awareenough to recognize that this

(30:38):
could be a massive break for you.
Yeah, and keep in mind, and he'sgoing to not going to he he's
not going to be thrilled that I'm sharing this, but he's
shared it. I think this is coming from the
guy who turned down Blade Runner.
Has he has he ever publicly mentioned that?
I'm not sure. I think it's been in inside.

(31:00):
I think I read it somewhere. Yeah, he didn't.
He didn't want to do Blade Runner.
And his reason was what? I don't really know.
I don't think he, I don't think he got it.
I don't think it was his, his cup of tea, you know, and I
think that was yeah, but but whatever.
But he's consistent in, in, you know, sticking to his guns,

(31:21):
right? Yeah, I know.
I, I think he helped me. He I realize now he helped me
more than than he hurt me with that, with that advice.
Did you want to jump around a little bit to some of the film
and TV days over the years? How about the first one being
you're taking over for Michael JFox you just mentioned in Spin

(31:44):
City, right? First day, you're there.
Steven Spielberg is following you around, doing behind the
scenes, right? Well, that was actually that was
on a pilot. That is the reason Spin City
happened. Got it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was called Sugar Hill, and
that's where I met Gary Goldberg.

(32:04):
But that had to be crazy. That was a trip.
Yeah. So because, well, Gary Goldberg
and and Stephen were really goodfriends.
And I guess Stephen had been at the at the pilot taping of
Family Ties, right? So it's a big hit.
And Gary said, well, you're my good luck charm.
So now whenever I do something, you got to be there, right?

(32:26):
So he invited him and didn't tell anybody.
So I right. And my only experience, I think
leading up to that was the the guest spot on friends, right?
So we do the cold open or the first scene or whatever, and I'm
just kind of get leaving the setand just trying to get back on

(32:48):
maybe a wardrobe change or whatever.
And there's a guy walking backwards with a camera in front
of his face asking me about how I'm feeling.
How was that first scene? And, and, and we get, and it
starts to take shape and it's Spielberg behind the camera and
it's, it's a, it's suddenly there's a lot going on, you

(33:09):
know, And so I finally come to astop because I don't want to
keep him, force him to keep walking backwards, right?
And he's got like this, you know, whatever camera was you,
you, you, you know, you could get in 1999, right?
And he asked me one question. He says, how do you know when to
start your next line with, with all this audience laughter, you

(33:32):
know, and I wasn't trying to be a smart guy.
I said, I, I, I usually begin again once they've stopped,
which is, you know, he was like,oh, yeah, of course, of course,
Like, of course that, that makessense.
But what didn't make sense was just that moment in, in itself

(33:56):
that there's Steven Spielberg and he's filming me and now he's
asking me a question about like,you know, like the mechanics of
some of the comedy. And it was just like, it was a
mind blow. Then the thing was that the rest
of that pilot, I know he's there, you know, and we did meet
earlier, a couple years earlier,I did an episode of Amazing
Stories and he he visited our set one day and was really cool,

(34:19):
but we didn't really interact. You know, he was the EP on it.
But yeah. And then then Emilio and I have
joked for years that there's a thing that, you know, when you
meet him that you get so flustered that you say something
like, it's a Brody to Jaws you, Mr. Quint Berg.
Because Jaws for us is, you know, there's apocalypse, then
there's Jaws. And I'd seen Jaws as a child,

(34:42):
you know, 100 times in a movie theater like that.
So, yeah. So that's kind of the back story
on that. You ever talked to Spielberg
about it? No, but I did go to his house
because Denise was friends with his stepdaughter, with Jessica.
And so we went there once just stopped in and he had hurt his

(35:03):
knee so he couldn't get up. And it was in, it was in the
middle of spin. And he said, you know, we're,
we're, we're counting on you forseason 7.
And, and, and I said, well, it'snot just me.
It's you know, I got, I got thiswhole team behind me, you know,
and he says, Nah, Nah, Nah, whatever, whatever it takes you

(35:24):
just, you just just get us to season 7 because I guess that's
when some fun financial things happen for everybody.
And I just told him, I said I will, I, I will do my darndest.
I will do my best, Mr. Josberg. And so, yeah, we didn't get to
Season 7. And I always wondered if he was

(35:45):
like, huh, where I told him, I told that guy, I said, look, you
know, do this for us. And he didn't deliver.
I don't think he saw it like that.
But no, I just did. The few times we've interacted
as a lovely man and and the the greatest filmmaker of our

(36:06):
generation, hands down, period. The end.
How about? Your first audition with Oliver
Stone and him basically saying you suck.
That was fine. That was fine.
Because I did, because I did, because I, I knew it was bad.
I knew it was bad. Yeah.
And then I, I got yelled at years ago by Tony Danza because

(36:27):
and I, I'm not even the one thatinsulted him.
I did this interview, you know, he said that Oliver kept saying
that you're too mannered. You're doing all this Tony
Danza, right? His his words, not mine.
So I said that in the interview and then I read it before it
came out and I was like, OK, it feels feels like I'm taking a

(36:48):
shot at him. So I reached out to Danza and I
said, hey, man, this is this might piss you off.
It didn't come from me, but it'sin it's in this piece.
He's like, don't worry about it,you know, So I sent him some
flowers just to kind of, you know, really kind of pad the
landing, you know, and he I guess he read it and I get this,

(37:12):
this letter and it's, it's my, it's the card attached to the
flowers I sent him. And he says keep your apology
and some other colorful language.
But then I saw him years later somewhere in Malibu and gave
each other a big hug. And but it was weird that that

(37:33):
I, it wasn't my original. I'm not the guy who said it, you
know, But that came out of that original audition.
So Tony Danza was with me in thefreaking platoon audition,
according to Oliver. So you sign a napkin when you're
in the Philippines filming Platoon, committing yourself to

(37:54):
doing Wall Street for Oliver, but you don't look back on now
this iconic movie fondly. Why?
It just wasn't the, I didn't have any fun doing it.
It was, there was so much pressure on that set and there
was so much I, I, I think Oliverput so much on himself to, you

(38:18):
know, based on what Platoon was doing and still doing when we
started, that it was still a raging inferno at the box
office, you know, and all the Oscar nominations and that whole
thing started up and. He was getting on you a ton.
His, his stress became sort of contagious, you know, and it was
I, I, I can see the weight of the world on him.

(38:38):
And I was just kind of, because the times we had in the, during
platoon and just the, the boys club sort of vibe and just how
much we bonded and relied on each other and, and just the,
the level of camaraderie. You can't, you, you can't really
recreate, you know, but I thought a lot of some of that
would transfer to the, to the, the concrete jungle.

(39:02):
It didn't, I mean, I'm not saying that every day on it was
like, you know, digging ditches in a heat wave, but it just had
a different, it had a different frequency then Platoon.
And then when I saw it, you know, I'm not putting anything
about my performance on Oliver. That's that I I, I got to be
responsible for that. But yeah, I just didn't, didn't

(39:22):
feel I looked comfortable or just like I really understood
what my responsibilities were inthe movie.
I was so confused by a lot of the actual content, a lot of the
financial stuff. It just was like a world I'd
never cared enough to to investigate.
And the training for it was insane.

(39:42):
It was, yeah, it was very tedious and really frustrating.
And I write in the book that I just at one point just said, all
right, I'm just going to say it like I mean it and I don't care
what it means or or yeah. And and not because I don't have
to like really break it down. I don't have to be an expert
except a sound like 1. Yeah, but it was still, you

(40:06):
know, then, then you then you run into like serious imposter
syndrome with and. That's been a a theme kind of at
different stages of your life. Sure.
Yeah. And I don't, I don't think I'm
alone with that one, you know, But yeah.
And and it's just so strange that people like it's like the
number one or two talked about film like out in the streets is

(40:28):
Wall Street, you know? Hey, man, I've changed my whole
career because of that movie. I'm like, right on, dude.
Yeah. And it's cool.
I'm glad that I left behind something that people really
enjoy and still watch and pass down to their kids and all that
stuff. But yeah.
And also I was writing the book and I was like, OK, well, that
that one's described as, you know, being really flowery and

(40:51):
all of, you know, everybody's best friends on that one.
And the next one was like, OK. And that went really well.
I'm like, there's got to be all these film sets.
Can't sound like you know it wasjust one big freaking happy
family or or non-stop party. You know you.
Ever talked to Oliver about why he gave Tom Cruise the role that

(41:12):
you and Oliver agreed you were going to play?
The thing that was weird is he said, you know, I want you to do
born on the 4th and we had meetings about it and we had a
dinner with, with, with Ron Kovac and and then he just I
stopped hearing from him. We stopped talking about it and
I reach out to Oliver and I I'm told that he's in Cuba, whatever

(41:33):
this is like 198088 or 89, right?
I'm like, OK, we'll tell him I'mlooking for him, you know.
And Emilio said he calls me. He says, hey man, you sitting
down and I think somebody died like I'm like, no, what's going
on? He says.
He says Cruz is doing born on the 4th.
I love that Emilio thought that I need to be seated to get new

(41:54):
as he thought was going to make me faint.
I mean, what are we doing here, right?
It's a movie. Oh, but it is a big.
Deal. Yeah, well, it was also the
betrayal factor of it right now.So I was like, OK, all right,
You know, Oliver's been a fan ofTom's for a long time.
It's, you know, it's a differentmovie if Tom does it than if I
do it. And I was like, you know, what

(42:16):
are you going to do? Like what?
You can't lose something you never had.
But you guys had already agreed that it was yours.
Right. I didn't sign a contract.
There was no, but I did. There was a handshake.
It was. It was we, we, we, we were far
enough down the road to feel like this was our next thing.
I mean, you signed a napkin. I signed a napkin for.
I know, I know. Yeah.

(42:37):
So my my word was honored between us, but it's fine.
OK, but so you guys crossed paths in a bar?
It was one conversation. It was in a bar like in, I don't
know, man, Long Island or someplace.
And I stopped in and he was there and I was drunk enough and
he was drunk enough for that thing to finally be brought up.

(42:59):
He was like, I just felt like you, you, you didn't have any
passion for it. I felt like you lost interest
and I was like, well, you, we, we, I, I didn't see you.
How do you know, like how much passion I lost or interest that
evaporated if we never talked about it again?
He was like, you know, my instincts told me that, you
know, the algorithms, you know, he could just tell.

(43:22):
He could just tell whatever, it's fine.
And then, you know, it wasn't like a thing where, you know,
I'm going to talk shit about himbecause then you see the movie
and you're like, oh, OK, all right.
He turned it into that. You know, when someone gets a
job and does that with it, you're just like, you know, of

(43:43):
course you don't sit there and Isacked in like I'd have done
that better. No, go yourself.
That's a brilliant and you should have won the freaking
Oscar, you know. But yeah.
And then I did some bad, just forgettable films sort of around
that same time, although Major League was not one of them.

(44:03):
So I don't know if Major League happens if I do.
Born on the fourth. Really.
Yeah. I think it, I think the timing
of it, something like that. And people are like, you know,
people are going to research this and they're going to find
the timeline and they're going to correct me and I don't care.
I'm just pretty sure that that that that one would have gotten
in the way of the other, you know, And if it's not true,

(44:23):
that's what I'm going with. So I want to talk to you about
fame you had written. You know I flew private jets to
the championship games of all four sports acronyms usually
book day of bouncing like a pinball between conversations
with the most unique and creative folks alive was

(44:43):
exhilarating. The guy can learn a lot when the
nights travels include Madonna and Jack Nicholson.
Pretty good line. Like describe.
Well, I did, I did, I did describe it that that continues.
There's stuff about accidental master classes and stuff like
that. No, it was if it was I what what

(45:08):
I was trying to do, especially with that, with that section was
just trying to give the audience, give the reader a
sense of, you know, what, what that felt like, What the just
how life changing it was from literally one day to the next,
because it's it's it's BP, it's before platoon, it's AP, it's

(45:28):
after platoon. And so it was that's why there
was really never any time to to make any adjustments or kind of
prepare for the unknown. Well, how do you prepare for the
unknown? You don't.
And I'd seen a lot of friends, you know, close friends, but
they're, you know, meteoric riseto their own levels of fame.

(45:50):
I'd been around it with the Emilio crew.
I'd go out of my way in the bookand never call them the Brat
Pack because I know how much each of them despises it.
So because it was a label that was put on that that moment in
time, that was a magical moment for all of them.
And because this guy couldn't get the attention of a few hot

(46:13):
girls that night at the Hard Rock, he decided that it was
their fault and he was going to just here's here's here, here,
here's what you all need to be referred to As for, you know,
moving forward. And I always just thought that
was cheap. And then that guy in the
freaking documentary that that Andrew does a really good job
with has like a real moment to say, yeah, I could have

(46:35):
rethought that. And he just keeps it just mayor
of Puttsville, you know, so whatever.
So I that was like a conscious decision to not use just that
that dismissable and and and andcheap label you.

(46:55):
Said yourself destruction that came from a long time of wanting
things you couldn't have, you know, and this is where you
preferred to, I guess the the touse the name you don't like the
Brat Pack. And then even your best friend
Chris got, you know, super famous on the heels of that,

(47:19):
too. Footloose.
Yeah, yeah. Why do you think that's where
like, that was a genesis of it? Because it was, it was within
arm's reach, but light years away.
And in watching it happen not just across the room, but at the
same table, in the same limousine, in the same, you

(47:41):
know, in the same orbit with these guys, and just why it
couldn't, why it didn't. What is it going to take?
What's it going to take for thatto, to, to come my way?
And I and I, I describe it in the book as as my own line
around the block, you know? You're director of the doc
Andrew had mentioned to me. I think you were at Magic

(48:05):
Mountain, 11 years old. It's a thing that he cut out.
It's a thing that he cut out, yeah.
And three women. Gorgeous young ladies, yeah.
Kiss your dad, they did OK. I could see them hatching their
plan like in a little circle right over there and, and
getting the courage to make the approach, you know, and, and I'd

(48:26):
seen it a lot with people wanting autographs or a picture.
And I thought they were going todo the same thing.
And I couldn't really hear what the dialogue was between dad
and, and, and the, the, the, thethree gals.
But I guess it was, they said, this is what we want to do.
And he was like, sure, not, not in a creepy way, you know, And
they and I didn't. And then I say, OK, they're

(48:47):
going in for a kiss. And I thought it was a cheek
thing. And it was like right on the
lips, three in a row. And I'm like, hmm, hold on a
second. You know, I saw that as like,
OK, there's another, there's another part of it.
And you remember how that affected you?
Oh, yeah, Oh, yeah. It's like I got, I got to, you
know, find a way to, you know, acquire some of that magic

(49:12):
sauce. You know, that was it was it was
cool to see. Tell about candy and the the
time together. Candy was a complete fantasy.
And I'm, I'm, I, I'm, I, I know it happened and I know she
existed because of the fallout from it, you know, was that dad

(49:34):
got the, the credit card receiptand there's this charge.
I was in the living room watching TV.
It's like midday. And it's the, you know, the old
like a MasterCard billing statement.
And he just doing a drive by. He doesn't even stop.
He just drops it in front of me and there's arrows pointing to
this $200 charge. And there's just one question.

(49:59):
What's this with a question mark?
And then he walks all the way back to his office in the back
of the house. And so I'm looking at it like,
oh, and you know, I thought about, you know, what story can
I build, what crazy alibi can I try to sell him that he's going
to know he's complete bullshit. You know, So that was all that
was kind of a long walk back there.

(50:21):
And then it turned into a 2 hourlecture, you know, about sex
versus love. And, you know, when there's
money involved, it's not this. And it's just like, all right,
OK, got it, got it, got it. I was just going to agree with
anything just for the lecture toend.
But he was cool about it. He wasn't like, you know, you're
grounded for a year. No, he just, he, he just, he
needed to, you know, just highlight some things for me

(50:47):
about the experience that he thought I might have overlooked
or was deceived by or, or confused about, you know, and I
wasn't, I was like, OK, that's that, that made that happen.
This thing, this that, you know,that there was a financial
component and it wasn't like, yeah, I didn't, I didn't really

(51:09):
care about that part. You know, I thought she was
really good at her job to be. Honest, you wrote.
The feeling I get from the gate buzz or doorbell when the girls
arrived was like 100 Christmas mornings all at once in my
favorite age from childhood. What's that age you're

(51:30):
wondering? Explain.
That but how do you explain that?
How do how do you put words to that feeling that I put words to
it was adrenaline, it was anticipation, it was fear, it
was excitement. It was.
Unknown I think. Yeah, because I also follow that
up with also not knowing if if Iwas going to answer the door to,

(51:54):
you know, gorgeous women or, or handcuffs, you know, that's a
anytime you roll those dice, youdon't know if someone's been
infiltrated on the other end or if someone.
And it's interesting the way that played out that I always
kind of had that fear that it was going to go bad eventually.
Why do you think you have that fear?
Because I knew I was breaking the law.
You can debate, you know, the validity of that law, but it's

(52:18):
still, you know, there carries it has a Penal Code attached to
it, no pun intended. So that was low hanging fruit.
Sorry. Yeah, but it was cool when it
wasn't handcuffs and it it, it never was because that never
happened on my end. That was all the that went down

(52:40):
at the at base camp, you know. Was that more exciting
companionship to you than a a, agirlfriend or a.
Different, different type of excitement, for sure.
Yeah. Because it wasn't, you know, we
didn't have the Internet, so it wasn't like you're going through
a bunch of photos. You just had to take somebody's

(53:03):
word and and Heidi's word was golden, you know?
Heidi Fleiss? Yeah.
How do you view her? I I've no ill will because she
didn't really do any. She did nothing wrong to me.
And, you know, I, I, it, it was kind of strange to hear it, how

(53:27):
she put it in the documentary that, you know, she made it
sound like she ratted me out andI went to prison.
There's like a whole kind of middle section that she left
out, you know? OK, explain that.
Well, she didn't go to prison because she sent me a girl.
She went to prison because she didn't pay the taxes on the
money that she made from sendingthose girls.

(53:47):
Because that's what they went after.
That's, yeah, they didn't care about this misdemeanor nonsense.
They, they, they cared about, you know, I mean, this was, this
was like Treasury Department, you know.
Something that you didn't completely get into it in the
book was you talked about, though, had you had to do that
period over in terms of interacting with the government,

(54:10):
you would have handled it differently.
I would have eaten it. You would have.
I would have. Yeah.
What? Because that's easier to live
with than being a rat. I wasn't a rat by choice.
I was a rat because I was, I waskind of, they stuck me in a room
with no doors basically. And that's what they do when

(54:32):
they, you know, when their star witness has the goods on, on
their, their prime suspect, you know.
There's just you didn't see any other way out.
There was no no other way out. Yeah.
And and it felt like it felt like a bridge too far.
You know what? I with the consequences.
Was a lot of time in would have been possible.

(54:54):
Threatened. Threatened.
Never would have happened. You don't think so?
Never would have happened. Not a chance.
No, because that would have involved all of my friends
rolling on me, which was, which just wasn't they, they they
weren't going to do, you know. There was a moment in Toronto
that you just, you know, had with the prostitute where you
knew that was kind of an end of the line.

(55:17):
What is it about that moment that caused you to just?
It was done. Well, there was no dope in the
mix. There was no booze in the mix.
So it was like in that moment I realized, OK, those things
really kind of make these moments better, make them more
fun, make them more just acceptable.

(55:40):
And I talk about this thing thatthat you know, that if, if, you
know, changing my headspace is, is you know, that there should
be some alignment with the type of company I also choose to
keep. And what's that line something
about, you know, you can't if you're if you're going to wear
hamburger pants on safari, don'tcomplain about being attacked by

(56:01):
a lion or something like that. Paraphrasing, but yeah, if, if,
if it just it, it didn't fit. It didn't fit sober.
It felt awkward sober, and it was just one of those moments
that I kind of sat down inside and was like, OK, all right,
let's just let's make this decision and stick to it, you
know? And then of course, you know,

(56:23):
the fatso line that was like, Ohmy God, did that really.
That really that. Well, Yeah.
I mean, I thought you say, did that really happen?
Yeah. Yeah.
It was like, you know, as I write in the book, she had
10,000 nicknames she could have come up with and she landed on
Fatso, which is really specific.And you know, not just me, but
Emilio and I, we were a little bit heavier during the filming

(56:45):
of Rated X. You know, we were playing two
guys that just freaking lived inthat, in that world, you know,
OK. Speaking of that, though, you've
also talked about how there was a period of time where you're on
this combination of like, ecstasy and steroids, right?
What? Was that all about?
Yeah, I kind of just say that inpassing by.

(57:06):
Yeah. I mean, that is an interesting
mix. You're a Panzer.
You're killing me. Oh my God.
There we go. That's because you're losing
weight. I think so, yeah.
But it's also, I can't find a pair of pants that I'm wearing
and they're not wearing me, you know, so but I'm buying
everything online. Maybe that's the problem.

(57:28):
You need to like walk into a store and like, let's, let's
figure this out together. I mean, stores also have less
and less now because everybody'sbuying stuff.
Yeah, yeah. So, But now they feel better.
So yeah, that thing was about that was during the rookie.
Yeah. And yeah, we were, we called it
rocket fuel. And that was kind of the drug of

(57:50):
choice for the Jackson 5, you know, Cage and Eddie and Phil
and Carrie and myself and. What, what?
What was the drug? Yeah.
And so nicknamed Rocket fuel because there was jet fuel was
cocaine, but then rocket fuel was X, you know, And then there

(58:13):
was a guy working on the set, and I don't know if he was
Clint's trainer specifically, but he was there in some
capacity, some health capacity. And then he was like, hey, I can
get steroids if you want those too.
And I'm like, sure. And so I'm doing Anavar and that
kind of stuff, but just getting bloated, not like not working
out. You got to work out if you're
going to do steroids. I mean, you shouldn't do

(58:34):
steroids, but if you're going todo them, you need to hit the
weight room, right? Yeah.
It was just an ill advised comboand just was got so bloated.
But there was also other very telltale behaviors and red flags
connected to all that. And Clint was just like, you
know, this, this has gone bad. Yeah, you were.

(58:58):
You remember that? Well, I just remember kind of
that I could tell that there wasan air of suspicion and that
felt, that felt bad. I felt like I'd let him down,
you know? Did you guys ever talk about
that? I've seen him out in the world
since that and he's always, you know, congratulated me on, you
know, just getting my together and hope you're doing well.

(59:19):
And no, always, always lovely and good tidings with him.
You mentioned the Jackson 5. How about the the best time you
guys ever had together? San Diego, San Diego.
It's just one of those nights and everything worked out, you

(59:40):
know? But again, you know, everybody's
got everybody's got families andkids and stuff and things, you
know, and. What what are the the pieces
that are involved with somethingworking out?
Nobody OD everybody got laid. How about that?
OK, there we go. We'll.
Check those two boxes, yeah. You mentioned when you were

(01:00:02):
drinking your most with vodka, you were going through like a
was it a few a few a day? A.
Few bottles, Yeah, yes. You're still, you know,
functioning and working and like, how does that work?
It doesn't work. I couldn't drink heavily on the

(01:00:24):
set. I could sip on the set and just
kind of keep a little fuel in the engine just to not, you
know, get shaky or sweaty. Booze decides for you kind of
what do you, you know, the amounts that you're that that
you wind up needing. And that's not a disease thing.
That's just a that's just a Physiology thing.

(01:00:45):
And what and what does that mean?
That's not like I don't believe in the in the disease model.
I think it's, I think it's a crock.
And but I'm talking about like your body develops A dependency
based on, well, a, a tolerance. And it's just a, you know, if
you need more, you're going to drink more.
And that's not because there's, you know, some weird evil

(01:01:05):
something in your brain that's that's making that happen.
No, these are choices. And so that's just, that's just
for me. I'm not telling anybody like
this has to be their new reality.
I'm just in, in my experience, you know, but I think a lot of
that drinking isn't always talked about like mid production
until we get to that 6 pack in 9697.

(01:01:29):
That's when it was the the the the job was just a a distraction
in the background. It was about just getting to a
location. You, you know, mixing it U with
fond and new people and, and andyou know, we'll worry about the
filming part is an afterthought,you know, and it was just doing

(01:01:51):
work just to get the dough that I needed to keep paying the
dealers or the bartenders or thegirls or the drivers or the you
know, and you just all all the all the supporting characters,
you know, because you. Said somewhere you were doing
what you considered to be films for the purpose of funding.
Exactly. Yeah, yeah, I know the films are
dog and you get to a point and you do have to meet with people

(01:02:13):
before you. This isn't all done like in the
shadows over the phone and then they see you when you show up.
No, you have to be in the presence of people that say, all
right, here's what we want you to do.
And just that these people didn't.
They could see, you know, the condition I was in or state of
mind or whatever and and didn't like call my agent or talk to
Tony or call my mom or somebody,you know, and say, hey, the last

(01:02:38):
thing the student needs to be doing right now is is, you know,
trying to trying to pull off a movie performance.
You know, he he, he, he he's propped up at best.
But they didn't give it was all about just let's get the poster
at me fed with him holding a gun.
It just like that. But again, it's still on me

(01:03:01):
saying yes to that first meeting, you know, so you can
make the argument that, yeah, that did happen by choice, you
know, then I did put myself, I was able to make it to that room
on that day with that person forthat job.
And maybe I was waiting for someone to say, you know, that's

(01:03:23):
this guy. Let's let's put this train back
in the station for a minute, youknow?
Genuinely like, do you think that?
Could be I, I don't know becauseI know I wasn't presenting well.
You don't hire a guy missing hishands to paint your house.
Am I going to get all that for that?
Do you think it was that evidentto?
Absolutely. Absolutely.

(01:03:45):
Yeah. There's only so much you can
hide. There's only so much, especially
when you get me. I was going at that freaking
level. Booze or drugs, bigger problem.
I was the 11 fueled the other one was needed with the other.
And then when I said, all right,well, that, you know, if I put
down the pipe and said, all right, just just doing the booze
thing because that's manageable.And I discovered that that I

(01:04:08):
think is is is probably the the gnarliest drug on Earth.
The booze. Booze, Yeah, yeah, 'cause if
just it's, it's, you know, it's really acceptable and it's
always Miller time and it's never, it's, it's always in its
own category, you know, it's always drugs and alcohol and,

(01:04:28):
but yeah, no, it, yeah, it, it's, it's it, it takes you to
places, you know. When you decided you wanted to
shoot cocaine, like, what was the thought process there?
And then what do you remember from actually happening?

(01:04:50):
Yeah, it was, it was really, it came down to what was available
because that whole chapter starts with trying to get off
the needle for that other drug, Nubain.
And so I got hooked on that and then.
For how long were you? Like 4 months, OK, yeah.
And so. And that that started with the

(01:05:10):
sexual encounter that led to this person sending you drugs.
All over starting with a nurse fantasy and I'm like, you don't
by any chance have the outfit? And she was like, I got it in
the car. I'm like all right, well, why
not? Why not tonight then?
So, yeah, and I decided it was time to put that down and just

(01:05:33):
just, you know, I talked about in the books just going to drink
that poison out of my veins, theother poison, right?
And you decided to put it down because you realized this was
going to be bad. Yeah, it was.
Yeah, it was, it was, it was getting ugly and I needed more.
And it was the, you know, I was trying to have long sleeves and
I talked about you need a biggertattoo or a longer sleeve or

(01:05:56):
something, you know? Because you'd never done needles
before that. You've always stayed away from
heroin or yeah, yeah. But that was the moment where
you started. Yeah, yeah.
Let's, let's get this, let's deliver this stuff.
And I think I said in the in the, in, in the manner that the
evil docks at Pfizer intended. And so, yeah, so I, I was, I was

(01:06:20):
like one day away from like finally feeling sort of stable,
you know? And it's when I found that one
needle in the office that was because I talk about the
lighting and all that stuff is like was Ground Zero for the
needle activity. And and then I found the needle
and it was, you know, I talked about that at some point in any

(01:06:44):
opiate detox, there comes a timewhen you it feels like your
bloodstream has been replaced with termites.
And that's true. If you can, if you can imagine
how that would feel that your butt that the blood running
through your body is now termites.
How would that feel? It's the worst thing in the
world, right? It's a thing of like, you just
can't, you can't get something out of you, you know, has to

(01:07:06):
needs time. And I was really close to that,
that that feeling leaving and I found the needle and then but
there wasn't the drug. I wanted to go into that syringe
and send it home. There was an accidental bindle
of cocaine. And that's why.

(01:07:27):
All right, well, I'm in the moodto shoot something.
And I've only seen this in movies and decided, yeah, you
know, I'm going to shoot cocaine.
And that's when it went bad. But that was kind of the genesis
of why those two elements wound up in that situation.
It wasn't planned, but it becamea plan as soon as those were

(01:07:49):
revealed, you know? Do you think had you not gone to
the hospital in that situation that you would have died?
I may maybe, you know, yeah, we're starting to, things are
starting to kind of get that tunneled vision kind of that.
I think I described it as the the sounds going to warbles and

(01:08:17):
just black cubes getting larger.Yeah, it was.
It was terrifying. It was terrifying to you when
you were actually in it. Oh, yeah, yeah.
Because I'm starting to lose control of my legs.
And I could only take these really tiny short steps because
my feet were shaking really bad.And it was just like, man, this
has gone. This has gone really bad.

(01:08:37):
It's gone to that place that I never thought it would.
It would, it would wind up at, you know.
Did you believe when you were told that the cartel was cutting
you off? Donna was a joke.
OK, Donna. Marco was making a joke.
Yeah, and he was. You know, you can tell that man
is, is is dead serious. Oh.

(01:08:58):
You can, you can. Yeah.
And he was like, what did he? He just said, this is not a this
is not a joke. See, this is this is this is
real. And I was like, OK, how do we
fix it? And he was like, I don't know.
So it requires some negotiating and like that.
What? What was the negotiation?
Just that first of all, convincing them that he

(01:09:22):
wouldn't, I mean, look at his day job, right?
He's not going to like he's not going to, he's not going to turn
into a dealer just because now he's sitting on mounds, you
know, of, of dope, you know, it's like, so he kind of had to
explain it to them like, no, this is a this is a unique
situation. This isn't like you've normally
sent that much because that dudeis distributing.

(01:09:44):
And then yeah, it did, but it it, it looked like that to them.
But he had to explain that who their customer was and that
that's just wasn't part of, you know, this not something this
guy would ever do. And that was on the heels of
what was it? Did you like snorting almost 4

(01:10:04):
1/2 lbs of cocaine over 3 weeks?No, it wasn't snorting, it was
smoking. Yeah, which is a big difference
because, you know, you've never done crack.
Right. Yeah, You know what, I don't
recommend it. Yeah.
I, I, I think that's one you should avoid.
I don't, I, I don't know that itwould enhance any, any part of

(01:10:27):
your life at at this stage of the game, you know.
Yeah. So that was cool.
I mean, it's, it's cool that they that they came to their
senses and the party could continue.
Here's a tough topic. OK, You know, we were obviously
just came from talking about kind of the period of your life
where, you know, drugs and boozejust, you know, sobriety was not

(01:10:51):
a thing. Then there were, you know, well
documented stories that you weren't always as nice to exes
during this period. When you reflect back on that
now, what do you think about? I just think, you know, a lot of
it just could have been handled just a lot more peacefully, just

(01:11:15):
a lot more civilly or with more civility.
It's difficult in those situations because, you know, as
parents, you become a protector,you know, and then when there's
a threat that something is between you and your children
that raises the stakes just to places and, and with feelings

(01:11:38):
that you never, you've never experienced or I'd never
experienced. And so it kind of turns into
like this stand you're going to take for your children.
You know, sometimes a lot of that rage can be, you know, I, I
see it as passion. You know, I think, I think
passion sometimes is confused for rage.

(01:12:00):
I mean, at different levels, of course.
And then you do cross that line.And I'm sure they'd say the same
thing that, that, you know, nobody should have taken
everything so personally that itreally wasn't, it was, you know,
so you tried a relationship. It didn't work out.
Now you got to go through a few things to, to button it up.
You know, I, yeah, it's, yeah. I I think it lacked a certain

(01:12:26):
maturity on both sides, just notengaging so much in, in the
stuff that we were, you know, the side is being told to keep
each camp inflamed, you know, because that's how those guys
stay rich. That's how the, you know, that's
how those lawyers stay rich. I think that's a pretty good

(01:12:49):
line in the book where I say they, they, what is it?
They they preach unity, but so division and something about
the, you know, profiting on the sorrow or something.
I wrote it better in the book. But yeah, it they all have

(01:13:09):
dinner at night and say, OK, allright, they're getting close on
this. Let's make sure we we screw that
part up. Let's make sure that they don't
agree on that. You know, he's offering this,
but make sure she doesn't know that until the next.
You know what I'm saying? It's a whole freaking game
that's played and, and a lot of people don't know, but in
California is one of the states where you can both have the

(01:13:32):
same, the same lawyer in those proceedings, you know, and, and
if, if we'd have known that we'dhave been like, fine, let's just
to him, that guy Dave, you're hired.
And then, you know, then you've taken away that, that, that one
component that thrives on, on the, the, the, you know, the

(01:13:55):
constant state of, of, of conflict, you know.
What would get you worked up themost?
The kids stuff. OK, just here.
Here's the thing. And suddenly you're not allowed
to spend time with a human beingthat you helped create.
Based on what? Well, you're dangerous.
Based on what? Well, they said this and.
They're like what they're like, he threatened.

(01:14:17):
Like whatever, whatever it is, whatever the fuck it is.
And it's just like, OK, is it, was it recorded?
Is it on video? Was it a thing?
Was there a witness? No, no, no.
OK. So again, based on what?
You know, and, you know, but yeah, I, I'm glad it's not, you

(01:14:39):
know, I mean, I'm more than glad, obviously.
I'm, I'm, it's, it's, it's, it'smuch, it's a, it's a peaceful
place that we've all arrived at.You know, I think as you get
older and just you don't have the energy for all that
freaking, all that chaos and rancor and just all that toxic,
you know? In the negative headlines,

(01:15:00):
you'll, you know, read about that I was alluding to.
Do you think it was more of the lawyers that were leading you to
get to that place or just the lack of sobriety?
It was a combination, sure. Yeah.
I was just, you know, you get frustrated, you get just run out

(01:15:20):
of patience for certain things. There's only so much like the
level of tolerance for unresolved conflict, you know,
But you know, it's like Denise talks about in the dock and
Brooke even talks about it. It's, you know, when there's

(01:15:41):
kids in the mix and, and it's weshould have arrived sooner where
we are today, you know, and that's why I don't get into it
in the book at all, because the kids, kids, kids are going to
read it. If I was going to write about
it, I would, I would have had tohave written about both sides.
And nobody wants that. What do you think you learned
from going through all of that? Get to know someone you know.

(01:16:13):
Don't be in a rush. Rush meaning.
Rush to get married. Rush to get married.
Don't be like, you know, it's like there's just so many
examples of people that are having a great time and they're
deeply in love and everything's working out and they're like,
we're going to get married. And then it's just like, you
know, it's yeah. And it just, it goes really.

(01:16:35):
I'm not saying that this happensto everybody, but there's enough
examples and cases and and and that that what where it does.
What did your dad stand up and say in his toes?
John remembers it. John remembers it better.
What? What's the what's the quote that
John had? I I hope you guys.

(01:16:56):
Know what you're doing? Yeah, Yeah, No.
You don't remember that one though.
I don't. I was sort of distracted that
night because of something that was going on at that wedding
that I'm I just didn't want to write about because it wasn't.
Yeah. Anything you care to fear?
No. I mean.

(01:17:17):
Are the Cliff notes. Yeah, I mean, there's two people
getting married that day. One of them was hammered and
that person wasn't me. So sorry, Brooke.
And she, she would admit to that, you know.
On the the lighter side, you know, there were also there's a
lighter side. There were also stories, you

(01:17:38):
know, connected to negative stuff that ended in a way that
was clear that, you know, nothing went on like your friend
Jane and the the limo in the back story being that she hit
you with a restraining order only to then be hitting you up
to come out and be intimate. Yeah.

(01:18:02):
Oh, yeah, yeah, we're taking a right around the block, you
know, and it's like, and I have that line that, you know, I've
been in thousands of limos in mylife.
That was the first time I ever entered 1 as a hostage.
That's just a side of the story.That was never I never had the
opportunity to share. And I always felt like that was

(01:18:22):
kind of one that was, that was a, that was an open circle that
needed closing. And the reason it's not in the
dock is because I, I said that Ithink it, it's a better story if
we can include her. I said, let's hear it.
Let's bring this person in. And we couldn't find her.
We couldn't find her. And we, we literally hired a
Private Eye and she just was, she vanished from planet Earth

(01:18:46):
either by choice or by accident or who knows.
And so we made the decision thatthat we couldn't, we couldn't
get both sides of the story, youknow, but the one that was out
there for so long, I felt needed, needed some amending.
And you amended it out? By telling, you know, the back

(01:19:10):
story, by telling what what happened after to then still be
in that person's company by by their choice.
After all, that stuff doesn't support all of those claims, you
know, and when we had a great time, I mean, it wasn't like.
And that's all in the book. You know, I was kind of hoping

(01:19:31):
maybe that that would generate some type of outreach from that
person and really. Well, yeah.
Just like you know, how have youbeen and.
And the reason I, you know, called her Jane is because I
didn't want people prejudiced from the second they started
reading that chapter. I wanted them to at least be

(01:19:53):
engaged in the experience and absorb the story in a way that
they're not automatically attaching their, you know,
their, their experience, their memory of it right at the right
from. The get go how would they have
been prejudice? If they if I'd used her real
name, there is a oh, OK, well, this is that thing where I know

(01:20:14):
how it happened and this is whatthe thing and the rest of this
is a flying shame on him. So at least I get someone into
the story deep enough and then maybe they start recognizing
certain details that are similar, similar or familiar or
whatever. And then it's like, OK, and by
then they're hearing other things that were never a part of
it. And by then, now they're hearing

(01:20:35):
that, yeah, there was a lot morethere.
I watched a number of the interviews you've, you know,
given in promoting the book in the doc, and the only time that
you seem to ever get a little uncomfortable is when people ask
about what's how do you describeit in the book flipping the.

(01:20:56):
Flipping the menu, right? Yeah, the other side of the
menu. What?
What about that has kind of still given you pause when
people inquire about? Because when people say sex with
men, you immediately think of like butt sex.
I mean, it's hard to be graphic,but that's kind of like where
the mind goes, right? And it wasn't that.

(01:21:16):
So I don't want to be like, OK, I did this thing, but this that
that part of it didn't happen because it but it didn't, you
know what I'm saying? And so I don't know that
matters. But that's the only part of it
that I'm like, it wasn't full-fledged, man.
It was that like you'll experiment with in college, You
know, I never went to college, so maybe that explains it.

(01:21:40):
But it's not a shame thing. It's just kind of like a, huh,
that's a, that's a bit of a broad category that that was
more specifically, there was a curiosity about that was more
specific than that. Was it the drugs that made you
curious? Or were you curious before the
drugs and the drugs gave you theconfidence?

(01:22:01):
That's a good that's a good question.
I sitting here, I don't really know.
I'm not going to say, Oh yeah, it was absolutely the drugs
because there's there's two schools of thought that the
drugs, you know, open doors thatare that that are already
somewhere in that house or that they create them.
You know, so I don't I don't, I don't know.

(01:22:24):
It never happened without without the, you know, insane
amounts of of crack. Really what's like what are
insane amounts of? Like the stuff that you were
asking about, you know, when the, when the cartel says, hey,
your, your man is dealing if, ifwe're supplying that kind of

(01:22:44):
weight, your guy is a dealer. And that's just the way it is.
So, yeah, that that's the kind of, you know, and it's I, I
think we made a really interesting choice.
Orenzi did to include Marco in the documentary because we were
Renzo and I were talking about it in all the planning stages

(01:23:06):
and you know, we know. Marco is.
He's he's a dealer. Oh, that's.
Right, I told the Renzi that wasmy favorite interview.
OK, good, good. Well, we just decided, you know,
people have told these stories of, you know, crazy partying and
all the people. And I'm like, I don't think
anybody's ever had their dealer in their documentary.

(01:23:27):
And he's like, I don't think so either.
So reached out to Marco and pretty courageous of him to to
agree to do it, you know, because we don't know like what
The thing is or what who is he, who he still whatever.
And he was like, yeah, sure, I did my time.
I'll sit down because he did it for me, which is really cool,

(01:23:49):
you know? What's your best guess as to how
you contracted HIV? Probably in that pocket of time
with the experimentation with the thing.
And I, you know, I don't really ever say that in the book or the
doc, but there's a reason in thebook that it does fall into
that. It was, as far as the chronology

(01:24:11):
goes, into that specific window,into that moment.
Like what gives you the confidence that it happened
then? Because I didn't have it before
that and then found out I had itright after that.
But never identified the person that you actually.

(01:24:32):
Got it from COULD. Never drive.
Now, because it's, it's it's at that point that much partying
trying to actually pin that on or, and the only reason to do
that would have been to just as a you, you, you, you know, just
as of like a responsible thing for others, right?

(01:24:53):
I think the barge had moved far enough down the river at that
point that it was, it wasn't about that.
It was about, oh, let's, let's get this thing under control,
you know? And describe the headaches that
you started getting. I thought it was a brain tumor
or spinal something or liver cancer or something.
Terminal for sure, which is why I didn't want to go to the

(01:25:16):
hospital. And I, I think I, I avoided it
for like a day and a half, you know, and finally just had to
had to go. And Denise was helpful with
that. She was helpful getting me
there. Yeah.
And but when you get the results, when you get the news
and you're like, oh, OK, all right, let's just, let's take
it. Let's just take this in.

(01:25:37):
You know, it does it is it, it'snot the best news, but there was
other news that could have been a lot worse, You know, and
they're like, well, and I'm like, well, what's the, you
know, it's like in Jaws, Brody'srunning around going, how do we
handle this? How do we handle this?
You know, and and they said, well, the IV that's been in your

(01:25:58):
arm for the last two days, that's already, you know, done
wonders. You know, you're responding
perfectly to that. And like, OK, so when it's, you
know, you're in that moment and but there wasn't a thing where I
was like, all right, well, we'reon the 8th floor.
So if I leap out that window, I'm not going to survive.
You know, it wasn't about that. It was just like, OK, we have to

(01:26:20):
get him. You.
You did not. Did not now, no, it was a it was
like a it was really depressing.It was like, oh, OK, and.
What's it like for you when you get to that place when, you
know, really depressing. Just feeling just not stuck in
this place. But getting to the doorstep of
hopelessness. Doesn't mean you have to open it

(01:26:42):
and go in and stay there, but just definitely arriving at that
unwelcome mat, you know? How do you get yourself out of
it when you're in it? Because I, I, I, I had some
perspective to, to look at it as, OK, I thought it was going
to be this and it's not. So that it's a, that's a, that's

(01:27:02):
a pretty big win that, that, that I'm going to take in the
middle of this big loss, you know?
And so, yeah, no, it was like, OK, we can treat this thing and
there's like here, here's all the technology for that, you
know? So I was fortunate that that was
all available, you know. And I read somewhere that

(01:27:23):
whatever the initial meds you were on, you felt like they gave
you borderline dementia. No, that was a dramatic stupid.
I said that. It's some goofy fundraiser for
this other experimental bull I was on that actually worked, but
never got FDA approval. And they're all these crooked

(01:27:44):
scientists and doctors involved just trying to chase the, the
brass ring of pharmaceutical, which is a, you know, either a
vaccine or this would have been a, an, an entry protocol
treatment in the MAB world, monoclonal antibodies, right?

(01:28:07):
And it worked, but it just couldn't.
There were too many crooks in the in, in the kitchen, in the
lab, too many crooks in the lab.And I just remember getting up
there and I said that just kind of off the cuff and there was a
big investment group there. And I was trying to make this
thing sound awesome versus the other that I've been on, which
by the way, saved my life, right?

(01:28:29):
But I wanted this thing to be kind of in the pipeline, and it
just had a lot less side effects, you know?
So, yeah, there was no dementia.That was stupid.
Yeah. I I don't even know.
I mean, I've seen it enough or heard about it enough, but I
don't know how could you talk about what that would look like

(01:28:52):
from your own point of view? Because you wouldn't know that
you're kind of missing things oryou're not your complete self,
right. I don't think.
I'm not a freaking doctor or scientist, obviously, But yeah,
so to make that comment was not just irresponsible, it was
stupid, you know? What did the the treatment teach

(01:29:13):
you? Keeping it under wraps was a lot
worse than just having it. And I didn't realize that until
I finally sat with Matt Lauer and was just like, here's what's
going on. You know, it was that that side
of it was really difficult because it it, there was a lot

(01:29:35):
of nefarious behavior. Yeah.
I was extorted and tons of bribes and payments and all
kinds of shakedowns and bullshitand I was just like, all right,
the only way to make this go away is to is to do what I did
on the Freaking Today show. We're just on live television.
Tell, tell, tell the world. And then there were headlines

(01:29:58):
that there were past lovers who you knew you've had HIV, right?
You didn't tell them. Yeah.
All. Did that all go away once you
did? Most of it, most of it, there
are still some trailers, you know, some some some some tales

(01:30:18):
on that comment, but. How do you deal with it?
Just lead with the truth, you know?
And then when push comes to shove, if those people really
think that they have a case or aclaim or some something, you
know, I guess dare them to present their evidence and that
at some point everybody's going to fold because they're holding

(01:30:41):
a fake hand, you know? I'd like to talk kind of more,
you know, present day. Good, good.
I survived all that, man. That's why we're sitting here.
But was there a moment that you knew you'd got into the other
side of it? Yeah, it was early on because
the other side of it was exactlythat.

(01:31:04):
It was, it was like just right there.
And I, you know, all this feeling, all this, all these
years of like all this energy and all these people and all
these freaking, you know, everybody's idea about, you
know, why that my, my, the, the only way I'd get, you know, I'd

(01:31:25):
one day be free of all this was following their plans, following
their, you know, just doing it their way.
And I finally just said, all right, we tried that for a long
time. And it just, it's just not it's,
it's just the wrong fit. What does that mean their way?

(01:31:45):
Their way, just as far as you know, You, you, you.
There's this the thing, There's a pattern.
You go through treatment, then you do the other thing, then you
want to in the program and you just kind of stay there like
your whole life. And I was just like, I'm not
doing that. And you never agreed with the
whole rehab thing, right? Now, for a while I did OK, but
it never felt authentic for me. It always felt like I was doing

(01:32:09):
it for others, you know? And there's a pretty good line
in the book when I say it's hardto ask for help when somebody
else has raised your hand for you, you know?
Kind of sick and tired of being sick and tired of yourself.
Well, I got sick and tired of being told that this was the
only path to, to, to solution orfreedom or any of that stuff.
And I and I was and I always questioned it.

(01:32:31):
There there were what like you said, 7 interventions.
Somewhere around that number. Yeah.
I got to the point where I was like, all right, there's there's
a thing. There's one last door.
I haven't, you know, one last option And and that's, that's
that's the one that I hold, you know, and I'm like, I did all

(01:32:53):
this other pretty cool on my own.
Let's let's see if there's, you know, if there's value in giving
this other thing a shot on my own.
And that's when I owned it. And that's when I realized it
was literally like one step across a line that was like just
right there and had been right there for a very long time.

(01:33:13):
And I'm not saying that this is has to be everybody's path or
don't kid, you know, stop what you're doing, man, because I did
it this way. That's bull.
You can't do that. That's not fair, you know,
because a lot of people are curious about, hey, man, how'd
you pull it together? And it's like, I did it.
And I, and I'm not claiming thatthis needs to be anyone else's
approach to this. I just got to a place in in my

(01:33:36):
very unique experiences in this lifetime in that world and
decided that this had to be the way it was going to happen.
It was the only way I was going to own it, you know, and, and
that's what happened. And, and I talk about the story
in the car with Tony and Sam. And was that a catalyst?

(01:33:59):
Absolutely. Tony being your.
Tony Todd and Sam, my daughter. Yeah.
And that was a powerful moment. I was just like, all right, OK,
this, this is happening right now for this very specific
reason. Meeting because you, your
daughter, needed you to show up for her.
She needed to get somewhere. Yeah.
And I forgot and the thing and Iwas like, and I never, I don't

(01:34:19):
have a DUI in this lifetime and I never will.
But it's people would think thatif anybody would have a DUI,
it's me, right? And I don't have that.
It's not on my resume because I never mixed the cuffs with the
wheel, just drew the line. I was in limos back in the mid
80s when they were like, really long and gaudy and clunky, you

(01:34:39):
know, and not like, cool to be in, you know, I drive past
popular bars in Malibu and there's my my 911 still sitting
where I left it that night, sitting there for two days.
And I'm like, when are you goingto get your car?
I'm like, what? I'm not drinking.
It's like the math is really simple.

(01:35:00):
But but yeah. So then that that turned into,
you know, there's a thing in thebook I talk about, you know,
there's talkers and doers in this life, you know, and in that
moment, it was time to, you know, to shut the up.
There's nothing left to say and just get busy doing.

(01:35:21):
And it was literally the next day, you know, people like, oh,
but then what about like, what about like, I'm like, what about
nothing? What about like?
That's when it started and that's, that's when it that's
when it was completely embraced,you know, and I'm not saying

(01:35:42):
like there weren't, you know, days where it felt like that
would still be a good idea. Of course there are.
You can't do something for that long and rely on it for that
long. And then like just one day be
like goodbye forever. No, because, you know, you're
becomes part of your DNA. It becomes part of your, of

(01:36:03):
your, of your blueprint. And there's people like, why'd
you do that many drugs, man? And like, because it felt great,
you know what I'm saying? That's the part that like, and
I'm drawn to people that just admit that right off the bat,
you know, why'd you stay on the pipe for 10 years?
Well, because it really felt good.

(01:36:23):
And you Add all those girls to the mix or whoever else to the
mix. And yeah, it was, it was a
really awesome time. Until it's not, you know, But
yeah, I don't, I don't look backon all that stuff like, Oh my
God, you know, you know, it's the stuff that almost killed me.
I mean, yeah, some of it, sure. But a lot of it is still fondly

(01:36:47):
remembered, you know? And that's a pretty, you know, I
didn't have to pay the ultimate price for that, that level of,
of, of experience or data or memories or, you know, but I'm,

(01:37:09):
I'm OK with like having that much knowledge about it.
And, and, you know, and, and youknow, it, it's, it's, it's
available upon request. How about that?
Yeah, I don't, I don't roll around unsolicited like some

(01:37:29):
douchebag that wants to close all the bars or tell everyone
how to live their life off right.
But I'm here and I'm sitting on all this groovy stuff.
So if you're curious about like any of it, yeah, boom, here it
is. When I I don't, I don't lead
with that. By by the way, I had written
down a quote from a Playboy interview you did years ago.

(01:37:53):
And I know I think it's relevantbased on what you're just
saying. But if you look at the core of
the foundation of what I pursued, who the wouldn't, What
red blooded young American male in my position wouldn't.
All the guys who criticize it would have done the same thing
but probably would have died because they don't have the
constitution I was cursed with. Wow, I was cursed with.

(01:38:15):
How about that? That's an interesting button on
that. Something else you said recently
that I was kind of surprised by.You said you become celibate.
Yeah. Why?
Not like the creepy, like, you know, mom's basement type
version. What was that whole category

(01:38:41):
like incel? Is that the thing there?
Whatever. Yeah.
Yeah. It just, I mean, as soon as I
quit drinking, like all my kids like showed up at once, you
know, And then the girls would, Sam and Lola would move in and
then, you know, they go back andforth to Denise and then they
cycled out and the boys showed up and then Brooke was available

(01:39:04):
but then unavailable and then sort of over there, but maybe
over here at times and going through her own, you know.
So it was like there was this constant and it was cool.
You know, it was like I could just, you know, be a dad again
and, and, and, and have interactions and build
relationships again and just be in their lives in a way that

(01:39:26):
I've hadn't been able to. So, and not like living in a
giant house with like 25 freaking rooms.
You know, there wasn't any room in, in the, just in, in, in the,
in the, in the reality that thatmy life suddenly became and I

(01:39:48):
just wasn't interested. And I've done so much of that,
you know, the the Rolodexes, youknow, really sort of filled with
all that fun cool stuff or uncool stuff.
And so I just, I just wasn't lonely without companionship,

(01:40:11):
you know, and just didn't, I wasn't going to bed at night.
Like, darn, if only there, you know, if only the bed didn't
feel so empty. No, man, it was like, OK.
This is what I need right now, you know.
I've been told that you'd like to have a partner.
At some point, sure, yeah, 'cause there's, I think there's

(01:40:33):
a lot of cool stuff on the horizon and.
It seems. Fun to, you know, to share some
of that, or at least the experiences or whatever.
Could you ever see getting back together with Denise?
I don't think so. I don't think so and I don't say
that negatively. I just feel like, I think, you

(01:40:56):
know, we came together in a way.And I think, I think there's
still, I think the right person for her is still out there.
And I think the right person forme is still out there, you know,
and, and, and she's terrific. And that's nothing against her
at all. You know they'll try to spin
that Sheen rejects Denise. I don't think so.

(01:41:21):
I think you made that and you guys have become.
The reason I asked was because you guys have become.
Well, she comes to the premiere,right and she's out there and
she looks freaking fabulous and doing her, you know, her, her,
her, her thing. And so I'm like, I should go out
there, you know, not like just to support her because I, you

(01:41:42):
know, she's going through the whole thing when there soon to
be acts and whatever's going on there.
And it's terrible. And I hope it, I hope it ends
peacefully, you know. But I thought, OK, that that's a
it's, it's, it's, it's going to turn into a cool moment if I go
out there. I just ran out there.
And I think that photo like wentall over the world, didn't it?

(01:42:03):
Yeah. And it was.
But in a good way in. A great way, yeah, we both had.
And then it gave me because I had to do this speech that night
in front of the. Were you at the premiere or No
I. Was not now.
No, but you know, I've never worked with Netflix and like
everybody that matters at the company was like there.
And Renzi was like, you're goingto speak last.
And he told me that on Tuesday or Monday.

(01:42:26):
It ruined the whole week, you know, and I was trying to come
up with material and this joke was stupid.
And that one was even worse. And then with Denise there, it
just, it, it gave me some cool stuff to just open with, you
know, if you're going to laugh early, you know, it's, it's the
rest is going to be OK. And so and then she was in the

(01:42:50):
audience and loved what I said about her.
So yeah, it all it all, it all sort of just found the right it,
it, it all it it, it landed nicely, you know?
You wrote. I've come to realize the more
glitz you rely on for identity, the more unidentified 1 remains

(01:43:14):
and it took me a while and the lesson was really pricey.
Yeah, that's actually, that's from us first arriving in Los
Angeles and how Dad always preferred a, a, a home that was
just that, a home, Right. And there's actually a word that

(01:43:38):
I invented for that line, which is doubloonary.
The more glitz and doubloonary 1relies upon for their identity,
the more unidentified 1 remains.Yeah.
And that's just about, you know,like pirate treasure, like, you
know, gleaming gold coins, you know, or doubloons, Correct.

(01:44:00):
So doubloonary would be like theamassing that those treasures
you know or the behavior that leads to doing that.
So what's the lesson that you'velearned?
Oh, that exactly what I wrote that you don't need all that you
know it's not it did. You can't your, your identity,

(01:44:23):
your your, your, your core self,whatever you think you stand
for. Can't should not be, at least
for me, linked to to, you know, all things materialistic.
You just never really get in touch with the real the stuff
that really matters, you know? Obviously for a while you were
living as large as you know one could live.

(01:44:45):
And then the past number of years since you've been sober,
from what I understand, you've scaled back a lot.
Sure, I'm kind of doing it in reverse.
Right. Yeah, it's like you, you know,
you live in apartments or townhouses or thing, you know,
places that they're a lot more modest.
And then you, you, you know, youstrike gold and you and you

(01:45:09):
start living in mansions into the mansions thing early.
And then now I'm back at the it's, it's totally flipped and
it's, it's fine. It's it's a kind, it's kind of
refreshing. What was that like for you?
Like this? Yeah, no, it was good because
you can only fit so much of yourstuff into a much smaller place.

(01:45:29):
So when it came time to have to just like sell the big house and
you know, and I don't, I, I, I don't like storage.
I don't like, you know, I think Carlin used to talk about, you
know, renting tiny houses for your stuff and then visiting
your stuff in their tiny house. And it's just like this thing
that we become held hostage by our stuff.

(01:45:51):
So it was really cool to just shrink it all down.
And how, how many things that weuse daily do we really need more
than one of how many cars can you drive at the same time?
How many watches can you wear? But I say in the book these
days, you know, I, I wear a Timex and drive a Cadillac.

(01:46:12):
And I, and I write that proudly.You know, I, I had one of the
nicest, you know, vintage watch collections probably in, in, in
the country at the time and was late to everything, sometimes
not by hours, by days, you know.Was there a time in the past

(01:46:35):
number of years where you were kind of feeling the pain the
most financially? Yes and no, because I would, I
would usually take a step back and it was like, all right,
let's just let, let, let's get out of the want.
This is what I want. And then let's just, let's just
settle into this is what I need.And that that's a, it's a, it's

(01:46:57):
a, it's not an impossible adjustment, but it's not always
the smoothest one either becauseit could comes with entitlement.
Well, I'm so used to having thisthing and having it that way.
Why isn't it still like that? Well, there's all these things
that I played a role in that whatever, you know, and, and

(01:47:20):
well, my buddy Eddie Braun, you know, I was like, we were
driving somewhere and I was like, damn it, I fucked it all
up, man. I gave it all away can burn it
all over the ground and Jesus, now what?
And he was like, well, now what is that you're alive.
He says and he says and he his fear was that the lifestyle at
that level at that pace, you know, just he he he was fearful

(01:47:43):
that if it if it kept going on that same trajectory that
somebody would have died. Not not somebody didn't even
have to be me. That something in that, that
that level that those, you know,that type of excess and that

(01:48:04):
type of just the abundant, the quest for that type, that
abundant energy, you know, abundant worship.
There's at some point there's, there's something has to give.
So I kind of look at it as you know, I don't know what's

(01:48:27):
supposed to happen or, or what was meant to be or you know,
where we are on the on like, youknow, people talk about their
journey and how do you know where you are on your journey?
That would that would imply thatyou know exactly how long your
journey is. Because everybody's living life
for the first time. Well, OK, yeah, right.

(01:48:49):
There's that part. So yeah, it was.
Why ever it happened is fine. And I'm OK with that.
You know, I don't. I mean, I'm, I, my life is
really full and blessed and still exciting as hell and very
rewarding, you know, And it doesn't rely on glitz and the

(01:49:14):
blenary. But by the way, I heard one of
the cool things about your dock was that you and Sam have
reconnected. Yeah, Yeah.
Yes, yes. Yeah, it started to die.
With an asterisk. Yeah, no, I, I was, I was so
heartwarming to see that she didn't know the role that she
played and found out in the dock.

(01:49:37):
And so I, I see that as a, as a,as a moment to to to reconnect.
You mentioned you have 5 kids. What's it like being a parent
and grandparent? Yeah.
Today it's pretty good. It's pretty good.
I mean, not every day is great with it.

(01:49:57):
Do you have any children? I have eight week old.
Oh, geez. Wow.
Congrats. Thank you.
OK. Still in that lack of sleep
phase. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Although my dad warns me, once they talk it gets even worse.
Yeah, it's funny, we're in such a rush to have our kids talk and

(01:50:18):
then walk. And as soon as they do, we tell
them to, you know, basically to shut up and sit down, you know?
Anyway, no, it it's a trip. It's you.
You I've I've experienced a lot more appreciation from my own
parents and thinking about holy hell, man, they with me that you

(01:50:42):
know some version of what I'm dealing with and.
And you guys, you and your parents are super close.
Yeah, we are, yeah. And always have been, you know.
But no, I think we, I think we get to revisit parts of our own
childhood through our own children, you know, and
everybody talks about, well, girls are easier at 1st and then

(01:51:04):
they became difficult. And boys are harder at first,
then they become easier. It's kind of this moment time
with my children, you know, thatI got to all, I got to watch
them all become adults or young adults, you know, And one day
you're you, you, you know, navigating things that that you

(01:51:25):
really want them to learn soonerthan later.
And then you blink and you've, you've got a roommate, you know,
who's upstairs cooking breakfast.
It's like, oh, wait, that's my son.
Yeah. It's, it's just, it's, it's the,
it's the evolution of the whole process.
But no, I wouldn't trade it. You know, it's the place where

(01:51:47):
you, where you know, where the, where the rumber meets the road
man. That's where you really find out
like who, who you are and what you're worth and, and, and just
the stuff that really matters, you know?
And then lastly, you know, over the past couple hours, I've hit
on a lot of the highlights from your life.

(01:52:09):
You know, nobody has received more attention the past number
of weeks than you. I know more and more
opportunities or you know, coming your way.
What's how? What what do you I mean, but
even talking to Betsy that right, you know, it is like what

(01:52:30):
do you want for yourself moving forward?
It would, it would be really exciting to be for people to
talk about my work again. And I'm getting, I'm getting a
taste of that with the book. You know, a lot of people are
talking about the doc and yeah, that is a version of my work.

(01:52:51):
But I'm not a producer on that for a reason, you know?
And I can't say I was a hired gun for that.
But I didn't really, I couldn't really shape that in the way
that that it ultimately what waspresented.
You know, the book though I did.And that I'm really proud of,
you know, that's the hardest jobI've ever had and the most

(01:53:12):
rewarding hands down, period, the end.
So I don't know if I'm ready to give up the autonomy of being my
own boss because that's something I hadn't felt in 40
years. And that was exciting to not
have to walk around a room and get approval from a bunch of
people that had never done it before.
And they're speaking to me like from, you know, an expert

(01:53:33):
standpoint and basically tellingme that I'm wrong about things
that I can only now I'm the onlyone that knows about, you know,
so I don't know. I mean, if I were to people
like, you're going to act again,I'm like, yeah, probably, you
know, and but it I think it needs to be something really

(01:53:56):
challenging, something fresh, something that's, you know, that
an audience is really going to appreciate.
You know, I don't have any interest in like doing a bunch
of art house films that play in one city and wind up on the
carousel and eight people see it.
You know, I think I'm going to do something it's it's needs to

(01:54:17):
feel like an event needs to feellike something that people get
excited about. And but again, not knocking the
book because that has given me, you know, I mean, these are two
boxes that I checked that I never had had experienced and
had never. New York Times bestselling.

(01:54:38):
That's pretty good, right? That's pretty good.
Yeah. Thank you.
So like that the guy that got, you know, kicked out of his
English class. I'll take it.
I don't know. I don't know what 2:00 is going
to look like. You're like what in the next 10
years? What do you, I don't, I, I don't
know, but, but, but whatever happens, I'm going to be front

(01:55:04):
and center to, to, to just, you know, wrap my arms around the
good stuff and, and just let them, you know, let let the
nonsense just float downriver. You know, it's a cool moment to
be in the middle of right now. It's a lot of work and it's,

(01:55:25):
it's, but the way I'm dealing with it, it's just, it's it, I
can only focus on what's right in front of me.
And it's not an, a, a thing that's just a like a, you know,
paying attention to a reality thing, you know, and there's
that thing that, you know, doingall these interviews and shows
and things. And there's always the, you

(01:55:46):
know, there's the speech you give in the car on the way to
the event. There's the speech you give at
the event and then there's the speech you give on the way home,
you know, so this situation heretoday, I don't have a speech for
the drive home. So that's a good thing.

(01:56:06):
That's a good thing. It's a moment I'll remember.
Oh, right on. You know, I I know I've been
after you for probably a dozen years, about a minute.
You did not need to do this, andI'm so grateful you did.
No. Come on.
Thank you so much. But I told you when we first
spoke on the phone, I said, look, it's not lost on me that
you were there when nobody else was.

(01:56:29):
You reached out when you ever see Deuce Bigalow?
No. Sure.
Yeah. You know, he always comes home
and he checks that you have no new messages.
Just like he's a complete loser,right?
That I had no new messages unless you were calling, you
know what I mean by that? Like, like just as far as, as,
as, as media outrage, you know, And so that, that was not lost

(01:56:52):
on me. That that's, that that has great
value that you were interested not because it was, it was the
time to be a, a time to be interested in me.
And so that's, that's good stuff.
That's some noble, you know, amazing, amazing.
Thank you. Thanks for listening to this

(01:57:14):
week's podcast. Don't forget to leave a rating
and review and for more in depthinterviews visit
grahambensinger.com.

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