Dirk Nowitzki: Legacy, Lessons and Loyalty

Graham spends several days with Dirk Nowitzki in the city where he built his 21-year NBA legacy. The 2023 Hall of Fame inductee opens up about the quirky German who mentored him, rookie year regrets, and calling the cops on a con-artist ex. He also shares his musical side and tells a never-before-heard story from his wedding.

Episode Transcript

(00:04):
This week on the In Depth podcast, Dirk Nowitzki.
You guys really did did some deep research.
The Dallas Mavericks legend remembers some tough times at
the beginning of his career. Doubt creeps in a little bit, so
I was I was thinking, was this the right decision?
Memorable moments on the court. I laid on that bench and had

(00:25):
some tears and thought about, you know, all the hard work that
it took to get there. And adversity off of it.
That was hard on myself. How could this happen?
How? How did I let this happen?
Plus, Dirt details his life after basketball.
I just think it's that pressure is is away, it's off now.
And looks back on some fun time spent with Mavericks owner Mark

(00:47):
Cuban. I always tell the story that he
came to my bachelor party. You know how many owners come to
their players bachelor party? But we begin with Nowitzki
discussing his family life, including a wedding story he's
never told before. So I actually wanted to start
off by talking to you about children.

(01:08):
You're obviously a dad. How have kids impacted your
life? It was a crazy life changer.
I think everybody warns you thatyour life will be different
before and after, but I don't think you can prepare yourself.
It's, it's a, it's a wonderful change.

(01:28):
But all of a sudden, you know, Ithink your life is, is all about
the kids now. It's, it's your, your life kind
of, you know, takes a little bitof a back seat.
Even though I was still playing when, when I had kids, but
everything when I was home was, was centered around, around
children. And it's, it's been wonderful
to, to watch them grow and, and learn and, and, you know, get

(01:51):
into sports and stuff like that.So it's been an amazing journey
already. And I think as a dad, I'm just
what I, what I feel the most is is pride.
You know, when they do anything,you're like, Oh my God, that's
so sweet. And he's already able to do
that. Now he's walking.
It's like when, when they do little stuff, you're almost, I

(02:12):
feel more pride than I ever did for any of my accomplishment in
my career, if really, if that makes sense.
And I think now looking back, I understand my parents in a way.
Why were they always, they always told me, I'm so proud of
you. Every year came back here and
we're so proud. I'm like, yeah, I've heard this
now a million times. But I think now that I have my
own kids, I understand that more.

(02:33):
That's it's just a different, a different sense of pride than
than anything that I've ever hadbefore.
How did it impact life in retirement?
It's been busy. We try and do to travel with
them. We have family all over the
world. My parents are still in in
Germany. My wife is half Swedish, half

(02:53):
Kenyan. So we try to see family.
We try to show them different cultures, different languages.
And that was important to you tomake sure, at least when I read
about it, the the kids spend time in Europe and Kenya every
year, right? Yeah, every year, you know, it
was a little harder now with thepandemic.
But yeah, we had, like I said, we, we want them to see family,

(03:16):
we want them to hear different languages, see different
cultures. And so, and then when we're
home, you know, they start, juststarted their sports already.
And, and so I'm trying to be involved in, in that and take
him and watch him. And so it's been, it's been a
fun three years, honestly. It's been, it's been flown by.
I mean, it's busy, we're travelling, do some stuff for

(03:39):
the Mavs on the side. I do some some stuff for
feedback for the International Basketball Federation there.
So there is literally always something going on.
But it's been, it's been a fun three years, I got to say.
Did I read 3 languages you're teaching your kids?
We're trying. So I, I speak German with them.
Why? If he's speaking Swedish with

(04:00):
them and, and of course English is, is because they live here
and it's natural. And when I talk German to them,
all they talk back is English. So then I got to translate in my
head and then then talk German again.
So that's, that's sometimes a little bit challenging with
three languages. It's easier if if me and my wife
would speak one language and then they would hear that all

(04:22):
day, but I got to speak English with my wife.
So really they all they hear allday is English.
Only when I address them is whenI when they hear German.
And so the the oldest, I would say she's 9 now.
She understands everything, but she still only talks English
back. We'll we'll see.
Maybe I'll give her a couple more years and maybe she'll
she'll she'll speak more. So it was a a snowy night in

(04:44):
February 2010, an event for sports and economic development.
I guess you agreed to get auctioned off on a couple dates,
but there was somebody else you end up meeting that night too.
I don't remember where you go. Isn't isn't that where you met
your wife? Oh, OK, OK, OK, come on.

(05:06):
My bad, my bad. Yeah.
So I was, I was going to a charity, but it was actually the
during the All Star game, The NBA All Star game was in was in
Dallas that year, 2010 in the new Cowboys facility, which
everybody was super excited about.
And one of those nights leading up to it was a charity event

(05:26):
from one of our the scouts here.And he's, he's African, he's
from Senegal and he has a foundation.
And so, so I went just to say hifor a couple of minutes and I
want to keep going with that's abunch of people and family in
town. And and I ended up meeting
Jessica say I knew I knew her, her old boss and I went over
there to say hi and and she was there and we started talking.

(05:48):
And you know, now it's this summer, 10 years marriage.
So Thomas has flown by three kids, but that was that.
That night took an unexpected turn for sure.
And you knew her old boss. I think she worked at an art
gallery. She.
Worked at an art gallery. Back in the day.

(06:08):
But obviously the rest is the history.
What? What made you realize she was
the one? You know, I just, we started
hanging out more, of course, started dating and you know,
it's just, I had the feeling, you know, you there's something
somebody do you want to start a family with And, and it's been,
it's been a wonderful journey. So yeah, it's just you have that

(06:30):
feeling. I was already, you know, I was
older already, I was almost mid 30s.
I was ready to start a family. And and and so we were both I
think in a similar situation andit just, it was the right, right
fit. What impact do you think her
brother's being a pro soccer player's head?
So I didn't find that out until later.

(06:51):
Yeah, I didn't know that until she told me about she has twin
brothers and I'm like, what, what are the odds, right.
And then one of the first summers I actually visited her
and, and Sweden went home and then I, I went to one of his
games, the the one Martin had, Ithink it was under 22 game at

(07:13):
the time with, with the Swedish national team.
So we went and, and, and went support and I met both and yeah,
I have a have a great relationship with them and
they're still active, they're still playing even though their
careers winding down. But of course been following
them. My kids are uncle's biggest
fans, of course, so they have tohave to play soccer for them.

(07:33):
And so it's been, it's been a fun family, family stuff going
on. Good proposal story.
I mean, not really. I didn't want to really go too
overboard and get a million people involved.
So I just, I did it on Valentine's Day, which was
really sweet. We had a lovely, lovely evening,
lovely dinner, but it's not likewe were in a helicopter on it,

(07:56):
or a balloon ride, or nothing too fancy.
How are the nerves going into the proposal?
I was good. I knew this, this, this is what
we both wanted and was looking forward to the wedding.
And you know, since we, we have family all over the world, we
did like a whole summer of weddings.
We had, we had a, a wedding withwith just close family and in

(08:20):
the Caribbean, her mom threw us a wedding party in Kenya and
then we had a, a big party here for everybody in my family here
in Dallas. So it's been like, it was like a
two months of whole wedding, butI was, I was ready for it.
It was it was a blast and I'll never forget.
But the wedding in Kenya was something else.
So we get there and Jess's mom has told her it's just a little

(08:43):
get together, you know, people want to see you and celebrate
you guys. But yeah, I I didn't know what
to expect. So I get there and and Jess
says, I mean, I remember just just keep an open mind today.
And I'm like, sure, whatever, let's have some fun.
It's a beautiful day. So we get there, they take Jess
away right away. Like, no, I don't.

(09:03):
I have no idea what's happening.I walk on the ground.
There's three or four massive tents.
There's like hundreds of hundreds of people there.
I'm like, this is a small get together here.
Like I was already crazy shocked.
So then I'm like, what are they doing to jazz?
The first thing that happened was I had to play a game.
Like 5 or 6 girls were covered and I couldn't see them.

(09:25):
And my job was to find my wife and if I don't I'd have to pay
like a fine or had to buy a goator something.
So they threw us a very traditional wedding party.
And so that that was the first game basically come in and find
your wife game and did you find her?
It was close. A couple of them were a little

(09:46):
too small, one was too big. So it kind of was good there.
And then it got a little tricky.Like there were two or three of
them. They were sort of similar size.
And I'm kind of like going, I couldn't touch them.
I couldn't, I wasn't supposed totalk to them, but I'm kind of
whispering like English to people in in their ears to make
sure I hear the giggle. I'm trying to see what shoes
they're wearing. Because they're all completely.

(10:07):
They were all completely, they had like just a blanket over or
something, all of them. So I, I couldn't see anything.
So I'm, I'm trying to, I was trying to find her and I was, I
was lucky I, I caught her. I, I think I must have whispered
something in Germany because I know Jess speaks German or
understands German. She lived there for a year and,
and, and so I heard her giggle and then I think I, which was a

(10:28):
little bit of cheating, I admit,but that's how it all started.
And it was just a, a wonderful ceremony of, of, of different
stuff happening. And they asked me if I, if I can
kill a goat. And I was like, that's, that's
not my style. Can you guys kill it and, and
then grill it. And then I'll have to feed her a
part of the ribs, which means symbols.
I'm, I'm going to be part of herlife at her feet are part of her

(10:51):
shoulder, which means I'm going to carry her for, for the rest
of her life. So it was an, an unbelievable
experience that, that that I'll never forget.
And we partied basically 24 hours and something insane.
So it's it was a good time. Retirement.
How long did you know you were done before you told anybody
else? I felt it that year, I think,

(11:14):
but I didn't really want to announce it.
I didn't really want that whole farewell tour.
But then I ended up getting it anyways because people saw, I
think I was struggling. I missed the first, I want to
say 30 games that year because of I had an infection in the
foot on the on the one of the tendons.
And so I struggled very much to even just get back to a normal

(11:36):
level where I can compete. So I think it started with
actually with with with Doc Rivers at the Clippers game.
I think, you know, when, when hetook the mic, right, the the
game was over this fourth quarter, we had lost.
I'm kind of understanding that the time's running out and he
called the timeout. We're like, what is he doing?
Like, why is he called the timeout?

(11:57):
We're getting mad. And then he goes up to the mic.
I'm like, what is he doing? And then he's like, hey, Dirk,
amazing career and get up, everybody get up.
And so I was like, I was almost embarrassed, right?
Like I've never never felt this before.
Did it like touch you? Though, Yeah, of course, it was
unbelievable, unbelievable gesture.
At the time. I was still in the moment and we

(12:18):
had just lost the game and I don't think I could enjoy it as
much as I would now. But it was a wonderful gesture
and that's another thing, of course, I'll always remember
from my last season. Do you go back and watch a video
or something? I haven't.
Sometimes you get a little clipson on Twitter and then on social
media, but I don't really watch all All Star or even ceremonies.

(12:40):
I'm not that guy that needs to rewatch myself.
I don't love that. I get a little uncomfortable.
But so doc started that the lastlast season and then all of a
sudden I get to Rd. games after All Star game And you know, I
was invited to play an All Star game because of people thinking
it was my last year. And so that whole thing kind of
snowballed and then everywhere we played after All Star on the

(13:01):
roads, people were giving me standing ovations when I subbed
in. And so I ended up getting a
farewell to her without really announcing that I will retire.
But in my head, I kind of knew the last few months and weeks
was really tough. I couldn't practice anymore,
which which I love. I just, I could only play the
games and it was just just health wise just wasn't wasn't

(13:24):
holding up anymore. So leading up to the last few
weeks was, was pretty emotional for me, but I never really let
it out. But I I knew that's that that
was going to be it. How would the emotion come out
in you even if you didn't show it publicly?
I mean, just knowing that I'm walking in the arena one last
time to to play or whatever practice days, we're all lifting

(13:47):
weights and somebody's making a joke and I'm in the middle of
it. You know, I'm always trying to
lighten the situation, always joking with guys.
And I knew I would miss that. I knew I'd missed the
camaraderie a little bit, the road trips, the, the, the away
arenas, the fans. And that was at times emotional.
But you know, I didn't really talk about it that much.

(14:08):
Maybe with my family they they knew, but I guess everybody else
was expecting it, but without really talking about it much.
You said you sometimes wonder ifit was worth playing those last
two seasons. Why?
Well, you know, we we weren't very good.
It's not like we were still chasing the the championship and
and I have some health problems now with a little bit of foot

(14:31):
stuff. But at the end of the day, it is
what it is. I played 21 years.
I'm proud of that with one franchise, which is a record and
I still, you know, obviously notthe last couple months, but
before that it was still fun. The the, the routine and the
summer and working and working out, staying in shape, playing

(14:52):
with the guys. It was, it was still being part
of the, the, the, the crew and part of the, the journey.
So I don't want to sit here and say it was a mistake to play two
more years. I don't know what I would do now
if I would be in the same situation again.
I'll probably still play again. But it's, it's been an
incredible journey. And you know, I'm glad that I

(15:13):
did play 21 because at the end Igot to play with Luca and, and
be there for him one year and, and kind of show him a little
bit of the ropes and, and develop a little bit of
relationship with him. And now he's taken obviously
this franchise back to to new heights.
So I'm kind of glad I was there that one year with him to to
kind of play with him and get tonormal a little.
Bit it is crazy to consider. We were on a group research call

(15:34):
talking about you the other day and was brought up that you're
kind of the connective tissue between the the Michael Jordan,
you know, Scottie Pippen, Charles Barkley days to Luca and
every, you know, star. I mean it's.
Been around a long time in. Between yeah, you miss it at
all. I miss, of course, some of the

(15:57):
games are competing. I think when I miss it most is
The Mavericks had an unbelievable run last year in
the playoffs and I wanted to be there and I wanted to support.
So I went to almost every playoff game last year home and
on the road. That was hard.
Knowing that you won't have thatfeeling anymore.
You know, you make a big shot. I watched Luca turn around the
fans and do some trash talking, I think, or, or firing up the

(16:18):
home crowd. I think that's, that's what I
miss a little bit. Not, not so much the preparation
and the, you know, the being in the hotel and all that, but the,
the, the actual competing part and, and, you know, making a big
play and silencing the crowd or,or firing up the home crowd.
And that is an adrenaline rush. I don't think you can get

(16:40):
anywhere else in retirement. So you said around the time you
were retiring, I want to travel.I want to enjoy my family that
sacrificed so much over the lastyears and see my kids and then
go from there. I'm sure after a year or two of
doing that, something has to come and find my passion.
Thoughts on that today? I would say I'm still in that

(17:02):
same mode. I'm still sort of, I would say
in the in between phase where I enjoy being with the kids and
family. We do travel a lot, but then I
do a bunch of stuff, little things to just see where where
is it going to take me? Is it going to be with The
Mavericks? Is it going to be international

(17:23):
with FIBA or I think one thing is clear that I'm going to stay
around basketball. You know, I've learned a lot the
last couple years about businessand you know, took some classes
at Harvard Business School. All that's cool.
But I don't think that's where where my passion is.
You know, the passion is always and has always been sports and
it was always basketball. So, but in what function and I'm

(17:46):
I'm not sure. I think I'll I'll see that I'll
keep going the way it is now andnot sure where where it takes
me. It's kind of an enviable
position to be in though. I mean, you had all the success
in the NBA and that's afforded you the ability in post playing

(18:07):
days to take a minute, explore what's out there and figure out
what you enjoy and want to do inChapter 2.
How much are you able to kind ofallow yourself to kind of enjoy
that process? Honestly, that's it's a for me
right now. It's, it's the perfect situation
because I can, I don't have a boss right now.

(18:30):
So I can kind of I'm my own boss.
I can do what I want. I can pick and choose.
So I think that's something thatof course, a luxury that I
didn't have for for a long time because, you know, always had to
be at certain spots at certain times.
And, and now I make my own schedule and I kind of do what I
want. Of course there's some stuff
that that comes with the with the program, but mostly I'm my

(18:54):
own boss and it's it's a fantastic situation and I've
I've enjoyed it for for three years now, But I'm sure there's
another challenge out there for me.
You know, my mentor Holder always said to me that he he
wishes that one day I will do the same for somebody that that
he has done for me. And that's take them in and when

(19:15):
they're 15, show them the ropes.I can see where I'm I can like
that, but I don't think I'm quite there yet.
I think I still need more, a little more separation from the
game, because once you do that, I think I want to be all in.
I always said I don't want to dosomething half if I commit to
something, then that's that's every day you have to be there.

(19:35):
You have to be there for the kidor whatever, whatever thing it's
I end up choosing and I'm just not quite there yet.
The kids are still too still toosmall and I enjoy time with them
and travelling. There will be times where you
know they're teenagers and they don't want to see me anyway.
So we, we know how that goes. So I think there's there's
plenty of time to to to find stuff.

(19:56):
So you mentioned walking in. You remembered we caught up at
Tony Larussa's charity event a few years back, and you were
pretty well glued to the the speakers.
I mean, somebody saw that. Yeah.
I mean clearly it like meant something to.
You know what I'm I'm always interested in stuff.
And to me, now that I'm done with basketball, to me I'm like,

(20:18):
I'm in the world learning now I'm I'm learning new stuff.
And so long in, in basketball, Iwas, you know, I was focused.
I didn't want to do much in the summers because I wanted to
train with Holger. Then I had international
competition, big tournaments. Then I went right back into the
season, like I didn't have the time to, to do all sorts of
stuff what I want and travel andlearn.

(20:40):
And so to me that was just a learning thing.
I wanted to see what these guys are talking about, about
leadership, about all sorts of stuff.
And it was. I found it super interesting.
What were the classes at HarvardBusiness School like?
It's 1. I did one online last year for a
couple of months. It was, this is management,
which I got to say for me is, ishard.

(21:03):
You know, all these guys that are in the class from all over
the world, 405 hundred people orwhatever, they're all have like
CEO position or CEO of big companies.
So you know, they're in that environment every day and they
went to college for it, right. And I'm, I'm sitting in this
class and I get all this material and I'm, I'm, I'm a
little overwhelmed. It was a, a cool experience, but

(21:25):
it was, it was hard. And I thought on the website it
says, you know, it takes like six to seven hours a week to
kind of get through the, the, the stuff.
And it took me sometimes 10-15 hours a week.
I was sitting there. So I'm reading stuff.
Then sometimes I had to Google because I didn't understand or
they were like, Hey, write a quick e-mail to your boss.

(21:45):
Such and such thing happened. I'm like, I don't even know how
to write an e-mail to my boss. So I'm I'm doing all this
research on the side. So it was, it was hard, but it
was, it was cool. I think I learned a lot.
I. Understand, you've said before
that if not basketball, you thought maybe you would have
gotten into academics. And when I heard that, I'm like,

(22:06):
what? What do you mean?
You were a bad student and you almost dropped out of school.
There was a time where actually I wanted to go to high school in
the US for a while. And then I met Holger when I was
15 and he's like, get your high school degree here in Germany.
And he kind of helped me push methrough.
And that was important time for me to, to meet him.
But now there is a business study in, in Germany that they,

(22:30):
they say, which is actually a bad thing to say.
But if you don't know what you want to become in life, you just
study that business and then thekind of sets you up for, for all
sorts of jobs. You know, my parents had a had a
painting business growing up andso my dad really wanted me to
take that over. And it was like a a 40 employee.
Yeah, it was a nice mid size, mid size company painting houses

(22:52):
inside outside sometimes on vacation and in the summer I'd
I'd go work there and it's it was hard.
It was hard and his story to this day, he told it to me again
this summer when I was home is he bought this and we were
always based downtown and we didn't have a lot of room there
for 40 people to come in park every day, have a meeting.
And then so he bought a huge complex a little bit in a in a

(23:16):
suburb and and he's like, he wasso proud and he showed me that
day and we walk in and to this day that he claims that I said
how this smells like work in here.
I'd rather go to the NBAI must have been maybe 1516 when he
bought that place. I don't remember saying that to
him, but both my parents claimedthat.

(23:39):
But I think now, now he's sold abusiness because my my sister
didn't take it over. I, of course, never came back to
take it over. So that was that was a little
bit of emotional time for him for something that he built for
50-60 years. And your parents were some of
the best athletes in Germany of their kind of.
Yeah, they were. They were good.
They were good athletes. I wouldn't say they were the

(23:59):
best. How did they influence you?
I just basically grew up in gyms.
My mom was playing basketball and my dad was a handball player
and they both played tennis recreationally.
So every weekend I was either with my dad watching handball, I
was with my mom playing basketball, we were on the

(24:20):
tennis courts with their friends.
So that's all I remember growingup.
That's all I wanted to do is is all I was interested in.
I didn't, I didn't play little cars or Lego or anything.
I was, I wanted to do sports andI was, I was always around
sports. And yeah.
What do you think you learned from them?
The discipline for sure. What I what I liked about them

(24:42):
that this they never really toldme I had to do something.
They always gave me my own choice and that's something I
want to do with my kids, give them the freedom and don't push
them into anything that they don't want to do.
And so that that was really impactful for me because when I
when I quit tennis and I quit handball, both my parents

(25:03):
weren't extremely happy because I was decent in both sports and
they thought, you know, maybe I could take the next level.
But. Your dad really was not happy.
He was not happy about handball.He thought I could have been a
decent Bundesliga or German national team player in
handball. But by the way, tell about this
belt that he had hanging over a lamp.

(25:24):
Well, that's I I that's allegedly, I'm not sure that it
was actually there. They still claim it wasn't in my
memory. I thought it did.
My sister don't remember it either.
So maybe I just made that up. But you know, come on.
They they were, they were. Oh.
Wait, how do you make? That I don't know, maybe.
I mean, they were, they were, ofcourse, tough, tough parents.
They were, they were old school and times when, when we didn't

(25:47):
listen. You know, it's it's it's time
for some discipline. But yeah, I'm not.
I'm not so sure about the. In what?
In what ways were your parents tough?
Just, you know, just show respect.
I think that's that's the major thing.
If if we weren't respectful to to them or other children or

(26:08):
other other adults, I think thatthat made them really mad the
most everything else, they were super cool.
I mean, my dad is so fun that heeven to this day when I go out
with my friends and worse, but he would he would join.
I mean, everybody loves him. He's got this funny personality.
He's always joking around. But when it was time to be

(26:29):
serious and he said something then had that had to be
respected. And I, I really like that
actually. And I think he's been such a
great role model for me that I'm, I'm trying to do that with
my kids. I want to be the fun playing
dad. I'm laying on the ground
wrestling with them. But also when it's time to go or
some time to do something and, and I say something, then, you

(26:50):
know, we have to get it done. So finding that I think a mix is
sometimes hard, but it's, it's been, it's been a fun journey.
Did I read this correctly that you were popular in high school
because of bubble gum? Oh, you've really got you guys
really did did some deep research, but I was always
hungry. And so I either had a little

(27:11):
gum, which of of course is not allowed in school, but I always
kind of like had 1/2 just a little piece, something just to
nibble on. And so some of my friends would
always come and like, hey, do you have something like, here's
a little piece of gum? But yeah, that's, I forgot I
said that. That's that's that's good
research. How did the hairstyle change

(27:33):
after Boris Becker won Wimbledon?
You know, hairstyles. I tried, I tried way too many
things in in my career and my life, but that was cool.
I was a huge tennis fan. And that time, that era of Boris
Becker and Steffi Graf, Michael Stick, it doesn't get much
better than that in the in the tennis world.

(27:54):
So I, I was a huge tennis fan and I remember going to the
hairdresser and I was like, I want, I want my haircut like
Boris. And she's like, what?
So she didn't make it red, but she made it sort of spiky, I
guess. And Boris was one of my first,
you know, idols that I loved watching.
It was such a war. He won women when he was 17.

(28:16):
Just a great, great player. Explain the situation where when
you were playing tennis, you were accused of being two years
older than you actually were. Yeah, of course.
You know, in, in tennis, they stagger you with, with your age
group and sometimes you play with a year older and, and, or
with a year younger, depending what what year.
But yeah, I was there was a picture that I still see.

(28:38):
I think it's at my parents' house and the guy I'm playing is
probably barely up to my waist. I mean, it's, it's uncomfortable
how big I was and how little he was.
And so, of course, you know, parents sometimes are like, is
this guy really born 78? Because he's, he's almost 7 feet

(28:58):
now. I'm joking, but I was, I was way
into 6 feet already at, you know, 11-12.
I was always super tall. I was, I would say as a
teenager, I was taller than mostof the teachers already.
It's 15. I was almost, yeah, almost 7
feet I would say. And didn't your parents at one
point talk to the pediatrician about trying to stunt your

(29:18):
growth? That is true.
We went to to go to the doctor because it was getting a little
uncomfortable. I mean, I was at this point 2
meters something, which is like,yeah, 66667.
And I was obviously still growing.
I didn't want to be, you know, 8feet tall.
I wasn't sure if if there's something wrong or I couldn't

(29:41):
get close. I mean, I was, I was, it was, it
was weird. It was a tough time.
Did you think something might bewrong?
I'm not sure. I wasn't sure.
I mean, I don't, I didn't see anybody else this tall around.
So we just wanted to make sure that everything is OK and and
they X-rayed, I think here my wrist here for the growth thing
and the plates and they were still wide open.

(30:02):
They said so and he predicted atthe time that I would be like
six, 10611. And I said, well, that's not
bad. I mean, that's I can, I can do
that. If he would have said you're
going to be 7-8, then I'll probably probably would have
thought about maybe a little hormone treatment or something.
And then I ended up being now a little over it.
Actually, I'm seven with shoes, probably 7-1.

(30:25):
But at the time, yeah, it was challenging.
I mean, and growing up there in the 80s, they didn't have that
much clothes for big guys. I sometimes they have we had
friends travel to the USI remember they bring me the
longest pair of jeans that you can find.
I would wear one pair of shoes the entire year to to school and
just to just, you know, size 1516 seventeens wasn't wasn't

(30:46):
around in in their 80s, late 80s.
So it was. It was even difficult when you
first became pro finding clothesand and shoes that fit you
correctly. Yeah, I mean, then it was a
little better. I had to get some some stuff
made, of course. But yeah, growing up was was
challenging at times. Skeletor.

(31:11):
So there is a a show, I'm not sure if they have it here.
It's a cartoon called he man. He was this superpower, a big
fighter and he was the good guy,basically saving the world with
this battle. Cat was his little cat that he
had. And one of the bad guys in that
show was was Skeletor. And he was basically just a

(31:31):
skillet and, and you know, you could see through him, but he
was the mean bad guy. And so of course, kids are
pretty ruthless, as we all know.And, and so they would call me
skeletal for a while because I was obviously skinny.
And then we'd go, we'd have to go in PE, we'd have swimming and
everybody obviously was in bathing shorts and my ribs were

(31:53):
literally sticking out here, here everywhere.
I was so skinny and and then that was my nickname for a year
or so was was Skeletor so. And while it might be funny now,
it it was not then I mean it. Was like, you know, yeah, I was
a shy guy and, and, and hearing that and then I didn't want to
take my shirt off anymore. It's just teasing, I guess.

(32:15):
But when you're, I've always been a sensitive guy.
And of course that was that was weird for me.
And in a way, I always tell the story that maybe that's why I
ended up at basketball because it was easy for me.
Nobody asked me, hey, how's the air up there where, you know, in
tennis or in handball, I was always the tallest and, and, and

(32:37):
being around basketball or therewere other tall guys, I wasn't
the tallest always or somewhere similar at least.
And so I felt, I felt comfortable.
I felt comfortable as we were onolder guys, they were taller and
so I think in a way I was. Of course I was.
I was talented in basketball. It was fun for me, but it also

(32:59):
made me feel comfortable. Did those days make you
self-conscious in a way that youstill carry to this day?
I mean, now as I I laugh about alot more, you know, going in
their room or whatever, but it all, it always will be that way.
If a guy walks in who's 7 one, people are automatically going
to stare. It doesn't matter if they

(33:19):
recognize me. I can go in there somewhere in
the middle of nowhere and you duck in to go under under the
doorway and you come in, people are just going to stare.
I didn't love that early in in my life, either the the constant
or, or the the whisper and the pointing like look at this lurch
over here. But now I'm like, it's fine.

(33:43):
And you know, I get along with it and it's, it's funny, but as
a teenager, that's definitely something I didn't, I didn't
love the attention. So that's that made me
definitely uncomfortable at times.
And when friends would ask you to go to the pool, you just
would stay home. I would stay home and then play
sports, which I love that anyways, but I'm sure if I

(34:04):
wouldn't been so embarrassed about how skinny I was, I would
have probably gone to the pool acouple more times with my
friends. But that way I just stayed home.
Shot in the in our yard. We had a little basketball goal.
Even my mom would look down. She didn't really know what was
going on. So she would look down from the
window and be like, what are youdoing?

(34:25):
It's like 100° out here. Just go, go to the pool and I'll
be like, Nah, I like, I like sports.
I'm not going. Why do you think you didn't
share that? I'm a guy that soaks everything
in and very sensitive, but neverreally talks about stuff.
And I, I deal with it in, in my own space, in my own head, in my

(34:46):
own body. And, and so that's how I just
dealt with stuff. So I don't think my my parents
were aware that that I was embarrassed that that I have
bones sticking out everywhere. I don't think they were aware of
that situation at the time. Why do you consider basketball a
girly sport? I think that was early when when

(35:06):
I played handball in tennis and handball, you know, I don't
handball is not really big in the US, but it's really big in
Europe. You can push somebody, you can
hold him, you can even shove himto the ground at times and only
get like a little bit of a penalty.
And so to me, that was that was a tough sport.
And, and my mom and my sister both played basketball.
So to me that was like, you know, you can't touch anybody.

(35:26):
And you know, if you bump somebody too hard, it's two
shots. And so to me growing up, there
were just us boys. We play, we play handball.
When I was about 10-11, they were like, you're so tall, you
just come to one practice. And so I joined the school team.
We're doing well right away. And and then I really started
really loving the the sport. And then, and then I joined the

(35:49):
the the club with my cousin who was a year older than me.
It kind of took me as like just see one practice to see if you
like it. And that was it.
Really loved it. Loved it from day one start and
never never stopped again. Joined the club, played there my
entire career basically until I went to Dallas with the the club
in Wurzburg. And, and at some point you knew

(36:10):
the roster could recite the roster basically every single
NBA team. Yeah, well then once I dove into
basketball hard. I was in like then I I quit
handball first because my schoolwas struggling.
I could do 3 sports at the same time.
Then I was doing basketball and tennis for a couple more years
and then at 15 I went all in thebasketball.

(36:30):
But. And and explained the the school
gym by by the way I I mean the the court nothing like this.
Yeah, it's probably half the size.
Basketball wasn't a big sport inGermany at all at the time.
So there were really no nice school gyms.
If you want to play basketball or or really any sport in in

(36:50):
Europe, you usually join a club.The club have the nice
facilities and nice gyms. So the school gyms are usually
super small. And it was like, it was this
wooden backboard. And I mean, it was old school,
but it was enough for us to run around a little bit, do some
layups. That's where I really started
was in in the school team. You end up getting 30
scholarship offers. You make visits to Cal,

(37:13):
Stanford, Kentucky. I understand there might be at
least a little regret that you didn't go to college.
How much truth is there to that?Well, it would have been fun, I
think. I think it was a good decision
not to go because at the time, late 90s, you know, the big guys
that the game was still different.
I didn't want to be a Sinner. I didn't want to all of a sudden

(37:34):
go to college, somebody put 2030lbs on me and be like, hey, son,
this shooting is nice, but we need you closer to basket.
And the, the game is just wasn'tas evolved as it is now where
the big guys all are outside andmoving and shooting.
And so if I, my whole career, ifI talk to most of my teammates,
they all said, hey, like that year or two years or whatever,

(37:56):
those years in college, they were amazing, just a
camaraderie. And, and it's different in the
NBA, You know, you play together, you have good, good
buddies, but everybody goes their separate ways.
Pretty much everyone wants to practice or the game's over and
just that tight, that tight unitthat you're in college.
I think I would have, I would have enjoyed that and the and
life on campus a little bit, butI think for my career and then

(38:21):
going was the right decision to go straight.
There are rumors about the NBA lowering the draft age to 18
years old. What are your thoughts on that
possibility? Well, I think it's been sort of
weird the last few years. Some guys going to Australia for
one year, some guys going to theG League, I think you might as

(38:42):
well have them coming out of high school if they're ready.
The way guys are doing it is notthey don't really want to go to
college anyways. And then if they do at the end,
they're worried about getting hurt.
Then they don't play in the tournament as we've seen the
last couple years. That's just silliness.
To me, that's just silliness. So you might as well open it up.
If they're ready, the scouts would know, the the kid will

(39:04):
know, the family would know and then we'll we'll go from there.
But what's been happening in thelast few years, I don't think is
is good for the game. Holger what impact did he have
on your life? He was just a huge mentor and I
owe him everything because I wasn't sure a time with 15 where
where this journey in basketballwould take me.
And he taught me everything. He taught me how to move to

(39:26):
shoot and and also help me off the court with with stuff with
school and just growing into theperson I wanted to to become.
So. What would he have you read?
Every year for a birthday or Christmas, he would give me
books and I'm like, oh, great, another book holder.
That's sweet, great, great gift.But he always try to brighten my

(39:48):
horizon and, and, and learn different things.
And, you know, he had me play music.
He wanted me to play the saxophone.
So I played the saxophone for a couple years.
And, you know, just just, you know, open your mind up to other
things, not just sports. And also at the time we weren't
sure. If it's going to work out, so he
said you the more well-rounded you are, it's going to help you

(40:11):
in life better if you need a joblater on or whatever.
So that he always pushed me in in other areas.
And what kind of books it's it'skind of hard to say somewhere
novels somewhere like books really hard to read for me about
nature and physics. And I'm just like Holger, this
is not like it takes me years toget through this just to

(40:32):
understand a few words. So, but yeah, that was his way
of always trying to to push me and and push me to new limits.
Explain how he was trying to help you as a defender by
fencing. So the, the, the long story is
he he never liked weightlifting.He thought that I was still

(40:53):
growing as I was as a teenager and it's just going to hurt my
joints. So he we basically tried to find
things in the summer for me to do to, to keep the fun, get a
little bigger, a little strongeror movement, better movement.
So we tried all sorts of other different sports to, to see,
hey, what training can we steal from them?

(41:15):
What's what's good for what could work for us?
So we rowed a lot. We did a rowing camp every year
in the summer for that, which isgood all all around power that
we went to like a boxing training just to see how they
train and warm up and and then fencing was, was, was on the on
the schedule. Once I'm like, I don't even have
a suit or anything. What what are we doing?

(41:36):
So the this club made me a wholefencing suit and got to to
fence. And what's so good about fencing
is they're they're attacking, but they're while they attack,
they also always play defense. So basically Holder's philosophy
there was on defense. Basically you have to be active

(41:57):
with your hands and without giving, selling out and giving
too much up and somebody can just blow by you.
So it was it was a cool experience.
But as we all know, I think defence wasn't really my strong
suit, so I don't think the fencing took my defence to
another level, but it was it wasfun to see.
And although while the stories are kind of funny, obviously it

(42:18):
worked, you know the the non traditional ways and you had a
ton of success. What's the name or the reasoning
behind the name of his Academy? What the, the applied nonsense
or whatever, you know, it's just, I think he noticed early
that people he was just not normal.
He was, he always thought outside the box, which in

(42:39):
Germany at the time wasn't, wasn't very popular.
People are like now you do, you guys are doing this all wrong.
You're, you're doing such and such and that's not going to
work. And so thinking outside the box
is, is not always liked, especially at the time when we
were starting to do things different.

(43:00):
And so that was his, he called his institute, institute for
polite nonsense. I think it's just something that
he, he, he wanted to be different, but he also, he knew
that he knew that he was wired different.
And you mentioned the saxophone.What did he once have you
dribbled to? So we had one of his friends was

(43:21):
a, was a jazz musician and he actually was his mentor when he
started playing. And so the, the guy would would
come sometimes to our rowing camp and he would sit there on
the sacks and we were practicingand he would sit there on the
saxophone and we would have to dribble and, and basically
Holger would call it dance the game.

(43:44):
He didn't want us to play like robots, right?
He never grown up. Even when he was coaching our,
he didn't want us to run all these plays.
And you just go set this pick and he set another pick.
His philosophy was everybody's got to have fun and enjoy.
And it's like a the sport is like a jazz band.
It's five guys out there. Everybody has their own skill

(44:04):
level and they're they're all good at something.
And somehow they're all on in the same in the same group, but
everybody brings different skillsets.
So he always compared basketballto jazz.
And he always said when when somebody did a good move, you're
like, oh, beat ball is jazz. That was just his saying.
So his friend would always come or sometimes come to practice

(44:27):
with his, with his sax and he would play the saxophone and
we'd had to dribble to the rhythm and then, you know, mix
up the dribbles and, and make the basically the bouncing sound
as the drums and, and there was just his way of, of dancing the
game. How true is it that David
Hasselhoff once came looking foryou at the All Star game?

(44:49):
Oh, you're bringing up some great classics.
David was was huge back in the day in Germany with with
Baywatch and Knight Rider. Which Knight Rider was my
favorite show growing up with the Hey, kit, come here and pick
me up right. I mean, that was that was so
cool. I think it was in a 2006 run to
the to the to the finals when I ended up losing to Miami, but I

(45:10):
ended up in that whole playoff run.
I made some some big free toes when when the game was on the
line. And one of the reporters said,
how in this pressure situation, how do you stay so cool and
relaxed? And I said, well, one of the
methods that me and Horvor always tried was sing a song,
you know, just not to not freezeup, to not let the pressure get

(45:30):
to you or just to stay cool, stay calm and have a have your
favorite song in your head or a hum it or whatever you want to
do. And so one of the guys said,
asked me, Oh yeah, what song is it then, actually?
And, and you know, there's some,a couple guys were, were funny
guys from a radio station and they knew David Hasselhoff was

(45:50):
big in Germany and he's threw in, Oh, he was looking for
freedom from David Hasselhoff. And then I was like, sure,
whatever. Next thing you know, he kind of
blew up and and and and David came I think one round later he
actually came to a game and we got to spend some a couple
minutes and then the following year the All Star game was in

(46:12):
Vegas and I'm warming up. I'm feeling good.
You know, I'm here in dark. I turned around.
It was David Hasselhoff front row at the All Star game.
So just super funny how that howthat all came together.
But. Did you ever tell him it wasn't
true? I don't think I did.
It didn't really matter. I was a fan anyway so from my

(46:32):
teenage years and. Was it Counting Crows, Mr.
Jones, that was at the? Time, yeah, because that's what
I what I think at the time was just, I don't know, one of my
favorite songs. And it worked for me one time.
You know, we were all routine driven.
So when that worked one time, I I stuck for that playoff run.
It's that's, that's the song I had in my head.
So can you still recite all the lyrics from a Shack rap song?

(46:56):
I actually can. How did you know that?
We we do our homework. So I was, I was such a huge NBA
fan and then I was a huge Shack fan.
I also loved his rap music, You know, you know, I got skills,
man. You know, I got skills.
That song. And there there were a few

(47:16):
others. There was one with the
Fuschnickens that I loved. It was called What's Up, Doc Can
We Rock? And then at the end he comes in.
This is a bit embarrassing, but there was a there was a time
where I can his his entire spiel.
I could rap that. I'm not sure I can still get the
whole thing going, but it's likeI'm a Hooper hyper protected by

(47:38):
Viper when I'm not a Hooper, youknow, you better decipher it
better makes you better. Make some funky decisions
because I'm going to be a shack knife and cut your position.
Forget Tony Dancer, I'm the bosswhen it comes to money.
I'm like Dick the frost and then, Oh, I I struggled a little
bit, but that's that was that was the one with the full

(47:58):
Schnickens and there was. You ever consider making your
own? I love music, loved loved hip
hop my entire life basically still think 90s music is is
still my favorite to this day. But I don't think I have any
talent in making music. You grew up, you know, in a

(48:19):
small town in Germany where the X-ray was first discovered.
I think your first trip to America, you packed your own
towel. How did the States compare to
what you were expecting? You know, all I saw was the show
Dallas a little bit my parents watching.
And so this is like, you know, on the countryside.

(48:41):
I was a little shocked how big the city was already then and
all the skyscrapers and I had noidea what to what to expect.
And I mean, it kind of blew my mind.
Of course, it was a little bit of a language barrier there.
When I got here, it was a littlebit of a culture shock because
I've I've lived my parents my entire life.
And then not only am I one or two hours driving away, I'm

(49:05):
eleven flight hours away. So it was hard not knowing
anybody, not having my, my family close.
And that was that was hard. You know, my mentor Holger, when
something was, was wrong, I'd, I'd call him like there were
probably times where we on the phone every day before every
game. Then after the game, I felt this

(49:25):
and this and this. What am I doing?
I can't make a shot. And you don't even have a cell
phone at the time. I didn't have a cell phone.
No, I called from my, from my home line that that was busy
still back in the days. And but then he would literally
if, if something would like really be bad, he would show up
two days later, he'd be there for me and, and we'd practice or
we, we'll talk and that usually helped me a lot.

(49:48):
And then, and then I'll always give Steve Nash and Michael
Finley a lot of credit because they were, they were so, so
great to me from from the beginning, how they supported
me. You know, even Mike, who was,
who was the man at the time, He wanted me and Steve to grow and
get better. And you know, there's a lot of
guys who Chris said, no, no, youguys staying down here, I'm the

(50:10):
man here. He wanted us to grow and share
the spotlight. And so those two guys, Steve
would always Take Me Out when I'm homesick or we'd go to
movies or dinner, meet some of his friends on the road.
And those two guys were true professionals on and off the
floor. And I I learned a lot from them.
The loon? Was that what it was called?

(50:31):
The loon was the hot spot at thetime.
So we lived, right. We lived close to the arena
because at the time and just an apartment complex.
And so that's where Steve lived.And when I came, I was like,
that makes sense. Steve is there, I'll just live
there. And that was that was a great
decision for me because like I said, we, we ended up doing
everything together at the beginning.

(50:52):
And, and so, you know, this is like a late 90s sometimes after
a Monday game, there was nowhereto find food.
There was no catering yet. This was before all that.
And so at 10:00 10/30, you get out of the gym, there's there's
no food anywhere, no restaurant open.
And so we started to go to this bar after after games and they

(51:14):
had a really good burger and they had a really good chicken
sandwich. So we started to go there and
then the better and more recognizable we were, people
started coming there and next thing you know, this spot is
like this hot spot. You can't barely get a parking
spot outside anymore. And it was, it really just
started with me and me and Stevego there after games sometime,

(51:37):
play some pool and, and you know, have a burger and next
thing you know it's the hotspot.What would you say your lowest
point was though in those early days with being homesick?
There were games where I didn't play at all and I've never
envisioned that. I've never felt that in my in my
life and my career so far that was.

(51:59):
Those are tough times when you don't even get subbed in at all,
which I understand what what Donnie and and obviously big Don
were doing. They were protecting me for some
from match ups. They didn't want me to get
embarrassed and lose confidence.And and so sometimes Donnie
would come up to me after and say, Hey, listen, this just this
team was not your match up, you know, so you you you're probably

(52:23):
not going to play. And it was still it was still
hard. It was still hard for me.
Depressed. I mean, I don't know if I if it
got that bad, but I always, whatI did was I kind of worked my
way through stuff. You know, if I didn't play while
the other guys are doing media, I was already on the bike.
I was getting sweat or I went back out, got some shots up the

(52:45):
next day. I would show up two hours early
for practice and just, you know,if I don't play, I got to work
hard and I got to get better. So you, you can play me then off
the court. Yeah.
I mean, homesick, I was the worst.
Yeah. I mean, I've had my whole family
at home and but we, the good thing is I guess we're so busy

(53:05):
and we're always traveling, always games.
And then there was was Steve next to me that developed a
great friendship. So I think it never got to the
point where I'm like, I'm out ofhere, everything is not working.
I'm going back home to Europe. It never got that far.
But your, your sister, it had been in the States before you
and only lasted nine months, andshe wanted to get the heck out

(53:28):
of town. What?
What did she tell you before? Well, she went to Duquesne,
which is in Pittsburgh for, for a year after after high school.
And she had a tough time mostly I think during the holidays when
it was Christmas, right, two weeks break, she didn't want to
fly over and fly back. So, but nobody was on campus
during Christmas. So she'd be sitting by herself

(53:49):
with maybe another foreigner on the whole campus.
And I think that was the toughest for her.
Or over the holidays, Christmas time.
And she told me that. But, you know, we, we were so
busy, even we played through on Christmas and it was really,
there was really no time even on, on holidays to, to miss

(54:09):
much. But I think it sometimes is
normal when things are not goingyour way, that doubt creeps in a
little bit. So I was, I was thinking, was
this the right decision? Should I have stayed in Europe?
Should I have gone to college? I'm sure that's normal in my in
the first year. Because your mom thought you
should have stayed in Europe. Yeah, she wanted me closer.
She wanted me closer. I visited a team in Milan, I

(54:33):
visited a team in Barcelona and she wanted me to to be closer.
And if something happens, they can be there in an hour or two
and not go overseas that long. But yeah, that's that's the
decision we we ended up making and.
And correct me if I'm wrong, I heard you ate fast food for

(54:54):
lunch and dinner, you were sleeping on a twin size mattress
and you were not cashing your paychecks.
It was a little bit of a challenge to get going at the
beginning. I was really fortunate here to
have a lady Lisa. She works for the Maps, and they
kind of say, hey, Lisa, why don't you take care of Dirk a

(55:16):
little bit, help him out when he's struggling.
And so every couple weeks I'd gointo her office.
I didn't even know how to write a check.
So she's like, hey, listen, thisis where you put your name.
This is where you put the date, and then here's the number and
here you write it out. And I knew none of that.
I never had to write a check in my life.
So it was, yeah, at the beginning it was just pretty

(55:39):
rough. I bought, I had an apartment and
I rented and there was nothing in it.
So I got, I remember I, I got a twin size bed.
I think I had one couch that was, you were able to pull that
out. If I have a guest coming, that's
where Holger slept. And really that's it.
The kitchen was built in and, and, and Oh yeah, I had ATV and
A, and a rocking chair to watch some TV And that's how I got

(56:02):
going. And I had to buy some couple
plates, couple of, you know, knives and forks.
And that's how I got going at the beginning.
And I didn't really have much time to, to add more because
that my first year was the, the lockout year.
So we had 50 games in like what,2 1/2 months.
So I mean, we were, if I was there to sleep a few hours and

(56:23):
then we were off again for a game or a road game.
So I wasn't really home that much in in my first season
anyways. Then for season 2 things gotten
a little better. Actually my first year I had a
rental car because I knew I was only there for 2.
Months it it took you a minute to figure out how to get the AC
to work. But that that was a few issues
there. It was.

(56:43):
It was just a small, I think it was just a small normal compact
car. So every time I pull up to the
practice facility or to a game, the other guys are just killing
me, right? What are you doing?
Buy a car? I'm like, I'm only here for two
months and I'm going to go rightback.
First flight after the season I was going to be out regardless.

(57:04):
How can you even fit into? Yeah, I mean, I had the thing
all the way back and then, you know, I had to, yeah, just
everything maxed out. And then and then it was getting
to into April and May because the regular season lasted a
little longer than normal, because there was postponed,
obviously. And then it was already getting
warm in Dallas. It was like 80s nineties out and

(57:25):
I'm going to the game and I'm ina full sweat showing up.
I had both my windows rolled down and I show up sweating to
the game and they were like, what are you doing?
I'm like, man, my, my car is super hot.
I'm not sure what's going on. And and they, and they said, do
you see this button here? AC, you have to push that in.
So when that when that light is on, that means the AC is on.

(57:47):
I'm like, oh, that makes sense because my car in Germany didn't
have ACI had an old Volkswagen to you'd literally had to just
roll down the windows everywhere.
So that's that's what I thought I had here when I got here.
And but there was, there was AC in that car.
How did the diet change eventually?

(58:07):
Yeah, You know, beginning of my career, I think in the late 90s,
we didn't know that much about nutrition like like you do now.
And now everybody's vegan and gluten free and whatnot back in
the days is maybe there was thatway of slowly starting, but I
didn't really care about it. I didn't think it would make a

(58:27):
difference for me that that much.
So I mean, it was basically likeburgers and chicken sandwiches
after games, pasta before the game.
And and then, you know, as you get older, I think that's
normal. You, you care more about your
body. You learn more about your body
and what you put in it. And so I completely changed my
diet when I was about 2728. Did it actually help?

(58:51):
That was amazing. Yeah, I would I always say I
would probably go back now and do it earlier, but I was just I
was just in my prime. We had just made the finals in O
6. We lost to to the Miami Heat and
a tough, super tough final series.
Then I only had a few weeks off.And then I played the World

(59:12):
Championships in, in, in Tokyo. And there I just couldn't get
going. I didn't feel it.
I was like, hey, I'm in my prime.
I'm what, 2728? I should be feeling great.
Why am I not feeling good? And then I just started reading
more and more, and that's when Ichanged.
Yeah, basically everything, you know, cut out sugar, no sodas,
no, no desserts during the season, barely in the alcohol.

(59:33):
Maybe around the All Star break every now and then, but usually
in my last 10 years in my career, didn't drink during the
season, basically cut out all the red meat.
And so it was pretty, pretty strict there for the last, yeah,
1012 years of my career. And then if you splurged
briefly, you would feel it immediately.

(59:54):
Yeah. I mean, when when you have a lot
of sugar, that of course increases the inflammation in
your body and and then, yeah, you just don't feel as active
as. When and practices, but I would
only do it in the summer when wetravel a little bit, then when I
was when I was off for a couple weeks.
And then once I started trainingagain, I I did the same routine

(01:00:14):
again, training with Holger and then and then usually play the
big tournaments in internationally.
So I would only splurge there for for a few weeks after the
season and really have a good time.
And then once, once I started training again with Hogan in the
summer, it was it was back-to-back to the routine.
And weren't you starting to become conscious of heart
problems that big men would have?

(01:00:36):
Well, this is just now more really in retirement.
A couple of team mates that I played with already passed away
and that's something, you know, that should be on every, every
athletes, but also big men's radar.
And you know, you have to keep training, keep training the
heart a little bit. And so I ride a lot of bike just

(01:00:56):
to, you know, keep the heart pumping and and get a little
workout. After the O Six NBA Finals loss,
I think you and your inner circle are up well past 6:00 AM.
Take me into that moment and kind of describe the scene and

(01:01:18):
what's on your mind. Well, O 6 was one of the most
frustrating losses of my career.We were, you know, basically up
to 0 going to Miami in the finals.
We only two wins away. We're thinking this is this is a
wrap the the, the Dallas MorningNews, the paper here had printed
the parade route. And then we go down there and we

(01:01:40):
lose three straight and then we come back here and we we're up
20 in Game 6. And when they come back and we
lose in six games, and I remember just being so
frustrated. We were so close to winning,
It's like your heart gets rippedout a little bit.
And but I always said to myself,hey, we have a young team.
I'm still my prime at the end ofthe day.

(01:02:02):
I think we'll be we'll be right back there since that's that's
how I felt. I felt like we we were a great
matchup for the Spurs, who at the time were the best team in
the West. And so I'm like, we're, we're
just going to come right back. So during my frustration and
those couple weeks, I was, I wassaying in my head, I'm super,

(01:02:23):
super disappointed and frustrated.
But knowing me, I'm going to work hard and I'm going to come
back next year. And, and then next year came and
I was we were rolling, We won 67games.
That was my MVP season and we are the heavy favourites to win
it all. I'm feeling good at playing my

(01:02:44):
best basketball and we run into hot team with the Gold State and
we lose in the first round. And in a way I was more
disappointed and frustrated after that loss than I was after
the finals loss. You know, the finals loss.
We still had an amazing year. We're right there knowing with a
little tweak here and there we can be right back.

(01:03:06):
But that O seven loss when all the high hopes and high
expectations, we're thinking we win and we had the spurs number
that year and and then we lose in the first round.
That was I think the low point of my career was it?
I think so just I didn't want toleave my house for a while.

(01:03:30):
The good thing is my dad was there, my my sister were there
at the time. So they kind of, you know, talk
to me a little bit and trying tobuild me back up.
But that was probably the most frustrated and disappointed I
was. What are you thinking about
then? Like I, I let my team down, let
the city down because I didn't play well that round.

(01:03:52):
They were tough matchup for me. They played me with two or three
smalls. Every time I dribbled the ball,
somebody else was coming, ripping the ball away.
And I just I, that was not my series.
And for two weeks, I felt like embarrassed to leave the house.
And then I wanted to leave basically right away.
And and I told, I told The Mavericks that I was basically,

(01:04:14):
I'm out of here. I'm frustrated.
And then the NBA called and said, you can't leave.
There might be a possibility you're winning the MVP.
And I'm like, you've got to be kidding me.
Of all years this year, I don't,I don't even want it, right?
Just keep it. But then I stuck around a couple
more days and then they actuallycalled and said, yeah, you, you

(01:04:36):
want it. Because at the time they were
giving the MVP away in the second round.
Of course we weren't in the second round.
So I had to do a little press conference here during the
second round. And it was, I remember I didn't,
I didn't even sleep the night before.
I knew Mr. Stern was coming to give me the trophy and there was
a big press press conference andI wanted to be as far away as

(01:04:58):
possible. That's the last spot that I
wanted to be was here and I kindof got through it.
I can't even remember what, whatspeech I gave, but I know I was
just so frustrated and embarrassed that we're not in
the second round that that was athat was a tough moment.
You were talking about tough times on the professional front

(01:05:20):
and everybody goes through those.
Also tough times on the personalfront and arguably one of your
toughest times was with the ex fiance.
I'm curious, like when the firsttime was, there was a sign that
oh, something might really be wrong here.
Well, I was as shocked as everybody.

(01:05:41):
You know, I had no idea when this happened.
So that was a very, yeah, very tough time because usually I did
a great job always keeping my private life private.
This is not for everybody. I know I'm in the limelight.
It's kind of part of it. But I've I've always been a
private person. So for me to all of a sudden

(01:06:04):
have my private life all out in the open was was something
completely different and was I was super embarrassed about the
whole situation. And it was literally in the
middle of the playoffs too. So it was it was a huge moment.
And to this day, this Denver series that I played in O 9 was

(01:06:25):
one of the best series I've everplayed in my life.
I have actually like over 30. And I think it's because all the
turmoil I had in my private lifekind of really helped me focus
in and enjoy in a way, have thatjoy to get away from it during,
during that series. But yeah, that's, that was a was

(01:06:45):
a tough time in my life. I think it's OK to to make
mistakes, though. And I think after the first
initial couple weeks where I'm embarrassed, I'm like, oh God,
this is, you know, all, everybody now is going to look
at me and be like, oh, did you see what happened to him?
I went home right away. I saw my family.
We went on a vacation together with my sister, with her kids

(01:07:07):
and for two weeks. And then after that, I was, I
was already fine. I was like, you know what, this,
this could have happened to anybody.
It just happened to me. And I'm going to, I'm going to
move on. I'm going to be the same
lighthearted guy that has fun with people.
And it was just, it was just a mistake and I got to learn from
it. You can't close yourself away

(01:07:28):
now from for everybody and, and just go into this little shell.
You know, life goes on. You you made a mistake and and
you still have to be the same guy.
When you first find out, how do you confront her?
I really want to get in the specifics on how how all that
went down. I needed a lot of support from

(01:07:50):
from Holger and of course my family, like I said, and close
ones and friends and and I don'treally want to.
Get and you changed your number and like e-mail address almost
immediately. Yeah, of course I wasn't.
I knew this was going to start obviously a big storm.
So I just wanted no parts of anything.
I kind of just wanted to focus on the play.

(01:08:11):
I was still in the middle of theplayoffs.
I didn't want to 1000 messages and I didn't want to go on
social media. And I don't know, was that still
before? I think that was still before
social media and it's been so long.
But yeah, I just kind of stayed away from everything and just
focused on the task at hand. That was the the playoffs still.

(01:08:32):
And once the player, then we lost that series of Denver.
Then, you know, it was a little bit of, like I said, the
emptiness and then you think about it all the time.
Then I just wanted to go home and, and and be with my family
and enjoy them, enjoy the company, enjoy the kids from my
sister and and then I think my outlook on life changed already
again, but. And I'm going to ask like how
you got through to the other side, but when you're in kind of

(01:08:54):
those lowest points like in in the middle of it, what are you
thinking about? How can I get through this, look
forward, work my way through it,look forward to basketball, have
my family there for me. That's not necessarily talk
about that situation or anything.

(01:09:15):
I go through just interacting with them.
I think more than anything it's.Not talking to.
Them, I mean, not they, it's notlike they wanted to know in and
outs or even when I'm frustratedafter another playoff loss, I'm
not sitting there and and pouring my heart out to them.
It's just, it's just me being myself with them and they've
known me for my entire life. And I, I think that's more the,

(01:09:37):
the cure for me to just to be around people that, that love me
for who I am and, and, and spendtime with them that usually, you
know, I don't get to spend as much time with my family
anymore. So to have that time with them
and. Yeah, but isn't that one
different though? I mean like it was the your
fiance at the time got got arrested and you applied for

(01:09:58):
custody of a kid that didn't exist because she said she was
pregnant. Yeah, correct.
Which we didn't know at the time.
So it was heavy stuff. And I remember we had a press
conference 1st and I was very nervous and anxious and
embarrassed and I got to say it was a tough time.

(01:10:18):
I was. Told that one of the reasons it
was hard for you was, you know, you made the decision to get
married and that was kind of oneof the first big decisions
you've made completely on your own.
Yeah, I'm not sure. I thought that was the one.
And we were. We were both on the same page.
So of course that was, yeah, it was a shock to me.
How do you grow as a person going through like an experience

(01:10:41):
like that? Well, it's yeah, it's adversity.
It's you have to go through something that that pushes you
because I was super embarrassed to go out in public.
I was and and to me, I take stuff, I'm sensitive guy.
I take things very hard. And and so, yeah, I was, I was
hard on myself. How could this happen?
How, how did I let this happen? But you know, you just get

(01:11:06):
through it. You, you have support and you,
my family, like I said was was very important that year and a
couple weeks later I moved, moved.
On you go from a low to the career life high in a matter of
less than a couple years. You know, Fast forward, it's

(01:11:28):
game six of the NBA Finals. I think there are 4 seconds left
and you're already in the lockerroom.
What's on your mind? When I made it to the Olympics a
couple years earlier, I, that was one of my, one of my goals
was make it to the Olympics and of course the NBA championship.
And so when I made it to the Olympics and then when we won

(01:11:50):
the game, I completely broke down.
I was crying, I was hugging teammates.
And so I kind of felt that same feeling coming on.
And I just thought, hey, collectyour thoughts a little bit, go
back to the locker room, have some tears and then and then you
can come back out. And that's exactly what I did.
I needed a few minutes by myself, even though our PR guy,

(01:12:11):
the NBA PR guy, were chasing me down there.
Where are you going? You got interviews, you got the
trophy. And you didn't want to come
back? No, I didn't at the time.
I just laid there was there's a little bench in the Miami shower
and I laid on that bench and hadsome tears and thought about,
you know, all the hard work thatit took to get there, all the
people that helped me to get there.

(01:12:31):
And so it was just an emotional moment, but actually I wasn't as
emotional as I was when I made it to the Olympics.
So I kind of got. So yeah, I don't know why
because with the Olympics, I think it's it's one game.
If we would have lost that one game, we're out there.
I mean, it's this the championship was for two months
was kind of leading up this whole situation.

(01:12:52):
And I don't know, maybe it was just that do or die situation in
for the Olympics that we had there.
So, so I kind of was fine after a few minutes.
And then now Scott was saying that PR, you know, you're
getting the trophy and I was like, give it to somebody else.
I don't want it. But then after like 5 minutes, I

(01:13:13):
was totally fine. I'm now of course, I'm super
happy. I went back out the photos
everywhere with me lifting the trophy for the first time and,
and hugging everybody and being with my teammates.
So I'm glad they pushed me back out.
Do you regret not allowing thoseclose to you to fly in for the
finals? I do a little bit after, yeah,
my sister I think sometimes brings it up.

(01:13:35):
But what did she say? She's like, well, we weren't
there. She's just, she doesn't really
bring it up a lot, but it's justrubs it in every now and then.
I think what happened was in O6 we were up two O and then my dad
and my sister came in and we ended up losing the finals.
We didn't win another game. So I didn't want, I wanted to

(01:13:57):
whatever we were doing in 11 there in the playoffs to get us
there. I didn't want to change
anything. I wanted the same people around
me. I wanted the same which some
people would say it's superstitious, which I'm really
not that much in life. But in that moment I said I
want, I don't want to change now.
I don't want more people here now in the house and so I ended

(01:14:18):
up saying no, please don't come now to the finals.
And I do regret that a little bit.
I think they would have had a blast being there and.
Are you surprised they didn't come anyways and just not tell
you? Well, I think their plan was
maybe just to fly into Miami andthen maybe stay at a different
hotel just to still be there. But no, it didn't happen.
So yeah, sometimes I look back on like, I think it had nothing

(01:14:41):
to do with them. Whether they would have come or
not had nothing to do with us losing in those six.
But you know how athletes sometimes are, they're they're
live in their own heads and they're all head cases.
And so at the time I was like, no, I, I want to keep the same
crew. After you qualified for the
Olympics, your dad comes into the locker room after How old do

(01:15:02):
you remember that? Yeah, I mean, I was, I was
already an emotional mess there in the locker room as soon as we
made it. And I was just laying one of
those physio benches. I had to rush back out of doing
a live interview with the with the, with the live TV that's
filmed us for years. And after like finally, I think
5 or 10 minutes, I've finally gotten myself back together.

(01:15:23):
I'm about to go out. And then comes my dad.
And then, I don't know, I broke down again and I ended up not
even making it out to the interview, which the guy is
still not happy that, that I didn't come out and do that
live, live interview. Yeah, he brings it up every now
and then. But I've followed the Olympics
ever since I can remember, you know, just, and then living in
the village, it was just such a dream of mine to, to accomplish

(01:15:47):
that. And when we did, I just I broke
down. Mark Cuban, what do you remember
from when he bought the team andyour first recollection of how
this guy's different? Well, it was a time where we
didn't really quite know what toexpect because, you know, some
new owner, you know, he might bring a new coaching staff, his

(01:16:09):
own people. I remember there was a period
of, you know, yeah, not knowing what what's going to come now.
So I think that was that was thethe worst thing that would we
didn't quite sure how he was going to come in.
And you guys were practicing on public courts?
Sometimes we'd come back at night to shoot with Steve and
they had league games going. So we'd we'd shoot on one of the

(01:16:30):
side baskets on the baseline so the ball doesn't go in and then
when they take a 5 minute break,we'd run out, shoot a couple
threes real quick. I mean, those were the old
school days. Yeah.
But anyway, so when Mark bought the team where there was some
uncertainty there, but he showedit pretty much right away that
he's all in. Yeah.
He he bought us a new plane. He wanted to build us a new

(01:16:52):
arena. He kept the coaching staff.
And so he was all in on, on, on,on, on, on trades and taking on
money and, and spending money toto have us win.
And so he basically turned this franchise around and and put it
on back on the map and and free agents wanted to come and and so

(01:17:14):
that was that was a wonderful time for me.
As I remember the beginning was very tough.
And then once we started to get rolling on my third, my 4th
year, Finn Nash was getting better and Van Exel and we had
we had some some amazing runs there.
To me, of course, the championship was will always be
better than everybody. But those early days, once I got

(01:17:35):
over my first disappointment that it's not working was what's
some of the best times we had? How about the best time you and
Cuban ever had together? Well, there's plenty.
You know, we've known each othernow over 20 years.
I always tell the story. Then he came to my bachelor
party. You know how many owners come to
their players bachelor party? So we had some good times off,

(01:17:56):
off and on the court. But he was.
What was that like at your bachelor party with the?
Oh, just fun. But.
What? What?
What about Joanne Howard's birthday party?
In the early days, we were just we were having fun.
It was he was, he was our numberone supporter and I loved it.

(01:18:18):
And but he also, you know, want to be a part with with us and he
was on every road trip. He was at every practice.
And of course we were, we were having some fun as well,
especially around the All Star games always.
So I don't necessarily remember that night as vivid as he does.
I think there was more of a bad experience for him, but we we

(01:18:39):
had a good time. July of 2010, I think you think
you're going in to meet with himat his house to say you might be
leaving. Take me into that conversation
and how it changed. Well, you know, in in, I've
never had really an agent. So Holger kind of talked a
little bit with the mouse, but then he was like, Hey, listen, I

(01:19:03):
think Mark wants to talk to you.Why don't you just go over there
and do it yourself? So that's, that's the agent I
had. And so I went over to this house
and we just, we talked about theold times.
We talked about the good times, the bad times.
And it was like just talking to a friend, really not, not your
owner. And we both got emotional and I

(01:19:26):
think we both agreed that I'm, I'm part of this team, I'm part
of this organization, I'm part of this franchise and city.
So let's just let's just do it. Let's just stay.
And we'll of course, I'd never really wanted to go anywhere
anyway. Oh, you didn't?
No, I didn't, but we weren't quite sure.

(01:19:47):
You know, I was a free agent thelast few years.
We after O6O7, we were the best team.
We we had declined. And so I was just, you know,
making sure that we are, we're all in still.
And, and then of course, I, I, Isigned that four year deal and
we won the championship in the first year after that.

(01:20:07):
So. Oh, and it required you
sacrificing a lot financially to.
Yeah, I could have signed, I could have signed a Max deal and
I decided to take a little less.To me, at that point, I had
already, individually, I'd already done everything, All
Star, whatever a bunch of times and MVP or whatever.
I mean, you probably left somewhere between 70 and 90

(01:20:29):
million. Well, that's over.
That's later. Overall at that, at that
contract, I didn't leave that much.
I don't want to give myself thatmuch credit.
But later on I could have signedanother couple Max's.
But first of all, I wanted to behere.
This, the city has been great tome from the beginning.
Mark has been a loyal friend to me even on and off the court and

(01:20:49):
stuff weren't going well. He was the first one to be there
for me. So we just have a great
relationship and and the city has been loyal to me and I'm a
loyal guy, so it always made sense to me for me to stay here.
Wanted to wrap with this, you know, you've talked about before
you were never the most confident of guys.

(01:21:11):
You know, you were shy been viewed just kind of a glass have
to empty in terms of how you'd view things at times.
But I I've been told by by somebody close to you that I've
never seen Dirk happier than he is at this moment.
I'm curious for your thoughts onthat.

(01:21:33):
I can see that. I think what always kept me on
the edge was was a little bit ofthe pressure even in the summers
when when I'm off, I'm still thinking basketball, I'm still
thinking I need to stay in shape.
What can I do better? I just think it's that that's
pressure is, is a way it's off now and I'm, I can do, I can let

(01:21:56):
go, I can do what I want. I can travel without looking for
a gym and a workout room every time I can.
I think that's that's that's helped me kind of be more at
ease, be more maybe fun going and not always having that
pressure of eat right and and perform and in my head going

(01:22:20):
forward. So but yeah, I'm loving family
life and and the kids. So I'm I'm in a good, good spot.
Thank you very much. Thank you, jerk.
You've. Mentioned your musical
informations before. Well, I only know one song that
I always kind of play, so I played the saxophone a little

(01:22:41):
bit. And I heard you don't play sax
anymore. You.
Can't No, what happened was my at the time, my teeth got
knocked out the front too. And you know what, the sax, you
kind of have to put your teeth there.
And so I had like a brace there for a whole year that and then
once I took that brace off, I never actually got back to it,

(01:23:02):
but I played the guitar for a few years.
My brother-in-law is actually ina Rolling Stones cover band.
He's a lead. He's the Mick Jagger and all the
moves. And, and so he taught me a few
years and it's like any, any, any, I guess anything, any
hobby, you, you, you get to a certain spot, it's fun and you

(01:23:27):
like it. And then if you don't really put
a lot of work in, you don't get better and you get stagnant.
And then that's, that's I playedthe drums, I played the guitar,
I tried the sax, I played the piano and tried everything.
But I'm not good at anything. But the one thing I do remember,
it's just this song. You guys probably know this.

(01:23:56):
More than words. By extreme, I mean that's that's
basically basic stuff. But that's one song that I that
I always remember. The rest are kind of forgotten.
I used to love Ben Harper. Do do you play what's today?

(01:24:28):
I don't. No I have a guitar at home or a
couple actually. Rolly has some of my
brother-in-law has some of his flying around so we probably got
like 5 or 6 guitars at home but.And Carlisle got you a piano.
And and when when I read that, I'm like, I didn't even know.
Yeah, so, so I was, I was alwaystalking with Carla.
It's he's a huge music guy. And so he's like, do you have a

(01:24:48):
piano? I said, I, I, I played growing
up. And I actually look in the, the
get one and then just 'cause I want to get back into it.
And then one of the seasons was over and I'm about to get off
and leave for the summer. And he goes, Hey, in four weeks
something's come to your house and it's a gift for me and
everything you've done for my family.

(01:25:10):
I'm like 4 weeks. So what, what is that?
And then sure enough, couple weeks later up shows a huge
truck with a, with a Steinway 7 foot piano.
And I'm like, what? So he, he gifted it to me and
opened it up and it says, thanksfor everything you've done for
me and my family from rake. And that was, that was super

(01:25:30):
special. I mean, actually now this circle
closes. My my kids play on and they they
all have piano lessons so and I unfortunately never found a way
back in it. I want to but I but all three
kids play and they enjoy the they enjoy the piano but and I'm
stuck with this little thing. But I'm just I should practice a

(01:25:54):
little more again. That's all.

(01:26:14):
That was awesome. That does it for my chat with
Dirk Nowitzki as part of our day.
I also got to play some tennis with him before his charity
tournament, but apparently a lotof people thought I was holding
back in my tennis ability, whichI can.
Assure you that. Was not the case.
And if you want to see that, plus highlights from his
Foundation star-studded Tournament, including my chats

(01:26:38):
with Ben Stiller, Steve Nash andothers. youtube.com/graham
Bensinger.