Joe Thomas: Pro Football Hall of Famer

Ten-time Pro Bowl left tackle, Joe Thomas invites Graham to his Cleveland home for an In Depth conversation. The Hall of Famer reflects on why he chose to fish with his dad instead of attending the NFL Draft, how he’s already experiencing short-term memory loss and the moment a second-string tackle nearly ended Joe’s offensive snap streak.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
This week on the In Depth Podcast, Joe Thomas, the Hall of
Famer and ten time Pro Bowl offensive lineman, spent all
eleven of his seasons with the Cleveland Browns and played a
record 10,000 plus consecutive snaps.
There's a saying that offensive line are are mushrooms because

(00:21):
everyone wants to throw us in a dark room and thrift on us every
day. Despite his individual
accomplishments, he didn't experience much team success as
the Browns suffered losing seasons year after year.
How do you handle so much losing?
It's something that's difficult for the human mind to wrap
themselves. Around.

(00:42):
When we chatted in March 2017, Thomas shared the effects he
felt from his time on the field.If you're being completely
transparent, what? Does concern you the most on
that front? You know, you walk to the
grocery store and you're like, can't remember what I needed to
get. And gave his outspoken take on

(01:03):
Commissioner Roger Goodell and the NFL Draft.
The idea of going to New York for five days and kind of being
paraded around by the NFL, for me to stand there in a suit and
go look at me, everybody, I was like, why would I want to do
that? That sounds horrible.
But we began our conversation talking about his childhood.
So I wanted to start by taking you back to when you were

(01:26):
growing up, oldest of three. I think your father, Eric, was a
banker. And then you had two other
siblings, each separated, I think, by four years.
How true is it that your parentsinitially held off on having
your two other siblings just because of how much of A terror
you were? I think it's actually very true.

(01:49):
That's the story that I get frommy parents.
But when I was a kid, I had so many bruises on my head from how
wild and crazy that I was that they would take me to the doctor
and the doctor wanted to put a helmet on me like.
Legitimately. Legitimately put a helmet on and
not let me take it off until I was six or seven years old
because I was just so wild I I could not be tamed.

(02:11):
Like what would you do or what have you heard?
You know, I, I don't remember quite too much, but.
And now you got 3. Stories, yeah.
And what I've seen for my kids is like, just wild.
I always wanted to be outside. I wanted to be climbing trees.
I wanted to be jumping off the couch.
I wanted to be rolling in the dirt.
I wanted to be playing in the river, playing in the lake, just

(02:31):
any Tom Sawyer type of thing that you could think of.
And did your parents not let youwatch TV?
No. TV, We actually didn't have
cable growing up and the only time we got to watch TV was if
mom was making dinner and you know, Sesame Street was on from
5:00 till 5:30. Well, mom was making dinner.
That was kind of the TV time. And other than that we were

(02:53):
kicking the in the butt. Get outside and go do something
that a kid would do. That was really important to
them, that you were outside. Yeah, yeah.
And I feel like that's probably how I'll raise my kids because I
really do appreciate that. You know, all my friends were
vegging in front of the TV. And for me it was always you got
to find your fun outside. OK.
And so that wasn't unique then to like, yeah, I mean, that

(03:15):
wasn't something that all your friends did in the area because
like everybody grew up outdoors.This was I mean your friends
were watching TV and your. Friends, yeah, but I was usually
the one dragging him outside, getting on my bike, getting a
baseball bat or getting footballand going outside to play and
enjoy ourselves. So what happens one day when you

(03:38):
bring home AC in algebra? It's funny that you picked that
up. I have no idea.
You must have talked to my mom. But I actually was grounded.
It was like the beginning of theyear, so it was the first maybe
report card and I think I got grounded.
No friends, no hanging out with buddies for maybe 3 months.

(04:04):
So it was some pretty harsh punishment.
So I had to make sure that that next grade was at least AB minus
that was the cut off. So I was like, all right, I just
need to know my standard. Where do I have to get?
To well, and you were a really good student too, actually.
Like, I mean, I was impressed. You know, we interviewed a lot
of athletes and I mean, most aren't like excellent students.
It seemed like academics was important to you, but I I guess

(04:27):
you knew too if like it didn't. I mean, you didn't do well that
you know you're. No friends, right?
And then if you can't watch TV at home, what do you do?
So that was a lot of motivation to make sure to get my grades
up. So yeah, academics was always
important to my family and to me, so I always took it pretty
serious and it came relatively easy for me.

(04:50):
I read this and it like seemed like there was no way it could
possibly be accurate. Freshman year of high school six
340 lbs. To senior year 67200 and 70 lbs.
A little inaccurate. When I was in 7th grade I was
63140 and then when I was a freshman in high school I was

(05:12):
67220 and then by the time I wasa senior I was 250, so I wasn't.
I mean, that's still like 80 lbsin two years, right?
Well, no 140 grade, 7th grade. 7th grade to 9th grade. 9th
grade, so yeah. So yeah, you're right, yeah.
You're right, I mean. Yeah, I grew fast in puberty.

(05:35):
How well do you recall as a kid in opposing coach yelling at you
to get off the field because of how big you were?
I do remember that when I was playing football in 7th grade
especially, I was 140 lbs and there was a weight limit on
carrying the football, which was140 lbs.

(05:57):
So I was right at that limit because I was a pretty big kid
obviously, and I was a fullback at the time.
So I would carry the football. And then of course, the opposing
coach would always be screaming that he's too big weigh that
kid, you know, and I didn't really hear it, but I think my
parents did. And and our our friends that
would come to the game and I think they took offense to.

(06:20):
How often would you hurt kids because of your size when you
you were playing goalie in soccer?
You know, the when people ran into me when I was a goalie,
usually I didn't fall down and they were the ones that were
going down. And there was a few times that
kids got hurt. But more than that, even I
remember when I was a kid, my best friend across the street,

(06:40):
his name was Nikki Hamill. And I swear every year I was
breaking a different one of his bones.
When we were playing hockey or we were playing backyard
football or whatever we were doing, he was always getting the
brunt of it because I was so much bigger than him.
And we would always try to Duke it out and he always ended up on
the loos. And I felt really bad because I
broke his collarbone. I broke his finger.

(07:01):
I mean, there was all sorts of injuries for that poor kid.
What did his parents say? You know, I don't remember, but
I think his parents said something like maybe we
shouldn't play with that Thomas kid anymore.
Why do you think you excelled atlike so many different sports in
high school? Well, I think my parents gave me
athletic jeans. I think that was a big part of

(07:22):
it. You know, they, I'm sure my mom
would have been a good athlete had she have played sports and
my dad was a pretty good high school athlete.
And then obviously my height andI think too, they just got me
involved in a bunch of differentsports, which I think kind of
helped develop and blossom my athleticism in in different
fields. Were were they encouraging of it

(07:45):
at the time or were you the one that was, you know, wanting to
do this and that? Well, remember, we didn't have
cable, so they were encouraging of anything that'll Get Me Out
of the house and kind of expend some of my energy so I wasn't
jumping off the couch and breaking my neck.
I. Mean even late in high school,
why did you think that basketball was actually going to

(08:07):
be your sport? Well, I was really tall and
skinny and so at that time I waskind of expecting maybe I would
keep growing and you know, 6 sevens, a great point guard in
the NBA, but I don't exactly have the quickness or speed nor
ball handling skills to play basketball.
Maybe if I grew another couple inches you could play, you know,
a forward. And I was much more heavily

(08:28):
recruited in basketball when I was younger because I was one of
the taller kids and pretty good athlete and pretty decent
basketball player. But it wasn't until kind of
towards my senior year when I stopped rowing and people
realized, hey, you might be ableto play football because I was
pretty good on defense in football, but I wasn't very good
as an offensive player yet. But I think the college coaches

(08:50):
kind of saw the athleticism fromfootball and they saw some of my
talents on the on the basketballcourt and they figured that I'd
be a natural fit to play offensive line.
And what made you realize that was the direction you should
pursue? It was fairly easy because I had
Virginia Tech, Notre Dame, Nebraska, Wisconsin, Miami

(09:13):
recruiting me for football, and I had Holy Cross and UW,
Milwaukee and Marist and all these somewhat smaller schools
recruiting me for basketball. And so it became pretty obvious
what sport I was better. So that kind of made the
decision for you, I mean and. Yeah, Oh.

(09:33):
Yeah. And you didn't give any thought
at the time to, hey, just go to like a smaller, lesser quality
program to keep pursuing? Basketball, you know, it wasn't
that I loved one sport over the other for me, I just love
sports. I just love competing.
I love being out there with other guys practicing and

(09:54):
throwing elbows and getting my energy out.
And so for me, I was just going to ride it as long as I could.
And, and the basketball was kindof, maybe you could get a
scholarship and the football waslike, here's all your
scholarships. And it was pretty natural to
say, well, football's my opportunity to keep playing
sports. And I actually got recruited

(10:16):
too, by a number of colleges to do track and field.
And so that was part of the allure to go to Wisconsin was to
be able to compete on the track and field team as well.
Right. Why was that important to you?
Because I just like doing a lot of sports.
I probably, you know, there was a time in in high school when I
was thinking, hey, if I go to Wisconsin, I could do

(10:37):
basketball, track and football together and that wouldn't that
be fun? But then I think you kind of
come to the realization that college football is more like a
job than it is high school football.
You don't really have time to doall three sports, but track and
football really makes sense because football's in the fall
and tracks in the spring and you've got plenty of time to do

(10:58):
both. How quickly did you realize that
you couldn't do all three in college?
I think when I was being recruited by Wisconsin, maybe my
senior year, there had been a basketball player who did both.
And I talking to the coaches andthey were kind of telling me how
difficult it was for him. And I just kind of got the
realization too, that I just wasn't that good at basketball

(11:20):
to really be able to keep up with those guys.
You know, they could throw me inthere and I could get a couple
fouls and a few rebounds, but I just didn't have the ability to
score with any of those guys or really get on the floor for any
significant minutes. So it would have been a huge
sacrifice to make to be a bench warmer in basketball.
And I just would. Yeah.
I just figured that football just makes way more sense.

(11:42):
Football on track? Married Life was talking to your
wife Annie the other day and shetold me something which I just
found unbelievable. You actually asked her out in
college right in front of her then boyfriend.
Which I didn't know at the time,but I did.

(12:03):
And he was there. He was there, he wasn't much
bigger than you, so it was not an intimidating presence.
And he overheard everything or, or or at least when she came
back. I mean you, you tell the story.
Well, yeah, I mean, we were outside of a restaurant
establishment and I I saw her and I had kind of known who she

(12:27):
was because she was an athlete. She was on the basketball team.
We share workout spaces in the workout facilities at Wisconsin.
And she also actually lived across the street from me.
So when we'd be buzzing to classin the morning on our scooters,
we'd pass and stuff. And she was pretty darn cute and
tall and she had a lot going on for her.

(12:47):
So I was like, OK, all right, I know who you are.
And then so it wasn't until you had a little bit of an
opportunity and a casual settingto, you know, maybe make a move
is when I made the move. And I actually did not know that
she had a boyfriend at the time.It was not apparent he was not

(13:08):
nearly as good looking as you, Graham.
So of course, I was unintimidated at the time by his
presence. And so, yeah, I just took the
opportunity to try to get her number and talk to her a little
bit. And I think at the time she was
just being polite and respectfuland was thinking, boy, this jerk
tried to get my number and I'll probably hopefully never have to

(13:28):
see him or talk to him again. But she gave you the right
number. Apparently you know, because I
tried calling her maybe a few weeks later, or a week later, or
a few days, I don't remember exactly and no response though
at that time. So she told me that it was a
really long time before you called.
I believe that was false. I believe what actually happened

(13:49):
is I called shortly thereafter ameeting and she just didn't
answer because she was dating orwhatever.
So she did the appropriate thingand was not returning my phone
call. And so at that point I just kind
of gave up on it. And I was like, Nah, you know,
she's not interested or whatever.
She's got a boyfriend. And I think things were

(14:09):
deteriorating rapidly at the, you know, emotional college,
girlfriend, boyfriend relationships.
And you were. Bowling at her.
Heart. Yes, of course.
The heartstrings. I had her captured and it wasn't
until that summer where she justkind of randomly called me out
of the blue, called me back. This is after she had kind of

(14:29):
broken things off with the boyfriend and and I got really
excited when she called and you know, things kind of blossomed
from there. And is it true that one of your
pickup lines was Can I take you out of my canoe?
That was the pickup line. Yes, it was.
I said, yeah, hey, I've got thisamazing canoe on the water.

(14:54):
My apartment that summer had a pier right on the water in
Wisconsin, on Lake Mendota in Madison, and it was a beautiful
spot. And I thought it'd be just a
romantic little date. We could go on.
I'd take her out on the canoe, you know, little paddle around
the Capitol. How do you beat that for a first
date and when? But she didn't think it was as
awesome as I did. She did not.
And we never did it so and. Then you guys like I guess a

(15:17):
year into dating, go on a camping trip and I understand
you almost pushed her over the edge in terms of her patience by
jumping into the tent full of water and.
Sand. Yeah.
So at that point, of course, early on when you're dating
somebody, you don't know everything about them.
You kind of know what they want you to know about them.

(15:37):
And so I'd had no idea she had this amazing aversion to sand
and dirt. And so we were camping on the
Wisconsin River, which is this beautiful river that's filled
with sandbars. And we, so we had our tent
pitched on a sandbar and it was a really, really warm summer
day. It was in the 90s.
And so before bed, I wanted to cool off because we were in a

(15:58):
tent that didn't have air conditioning.
And so I jumped in the river. Well, the mosquitoes were kind
of out at the time. So as soon as I got out of the
river, I like, sprinted across the sandbar and dove into the
tent to get away from the mosquitoes.
Well, of course, if you're soaking wet running across a
sandy beach, you're going to be covered in sand when you jump
into the tent. And so for me, it was no issue.

(16:19):
Sand doesn't bother me whatsoever.
Very few things bother me. But for her, she was like
freaked out that I had was had brought all this sand into the
tent. But of course, when you're first
dating somebody, as you know, you got to act cool and calm,
like you're not freaking out. And so it wasn't until many,
many months later that I realized how upset she was that
I just filled the tent with Sam that night.

(16:43):
And she's she was a college basketball player.
How competitive is she? Man, it was ugly.
She is super competitive to thisday and it's so bad that we
really can't even compete in a lot of basic things like like

(17:03):
what? We can't play cards, we can't
play board games because she's just so competitive and I'm so
competitive that they would always end in a fight.
Like what? Give me an example of what's
happened before when you've tried.
Well, now that we've spend together for quite some time, I
know all the nice buttons to push to really get her going and
you just get her out of her game.

(17:25):
You know, you get in their head a little bit and then you swing
the advantage in your favor. So we like to play cribbage,
which is kind of an old time card game.
And so whenever we play, I always to tell her that she's
never beaten me in cribbage, which clearly is false because I
think she's probably beaten me one time maybe or two.
But she would, she would get so upset because she wallops me all

(17:47):
the time and but I would never admit that she beats me.
And so she would get so upset about it and she'd be so
competitive during the game thatshe would just finally say we're
never playing cribbage again andwe'd get in a big fight about
it. So you guys say, I guess you've
been dating about a year in college when somebody says to
her that you might be leaving for the NFL draft.

(18:13):
What was her reaction? Well.
I think she was confused. I mean, I was sort of taken
aback by it myself because like I mentioned, I had never really
thought about the NFL until thatpoint.
And so I think she was a little bit confused thinking that,
well, he's only a junior. He's not going to leave until
he's done playing in the in college, and even then he's

(18:36):
probably not good enough to playin the NFL.
And then she had no idea that you had a chance at the NFL.
Right. I don't think either of us did.
I mean, when his life was so simple in college, you worked
out, you went to practice, you came home and you ate crappy
food and then you drank beers with your friends and then you
just did it all over again. And it was, it was amazing.
But you just never thought aboutanything outside of that.

(18:58):
And she was the same way. And I don't think she really
thought about, you know, me playing in the NFL.
It was not not on my horizon. And I mean, she was a Badger fan
and she liked football, but she was not like a super fan or
anything like that. So you obviously get drafted
third overall. In what ways were you frugal

(19:20):
when you first came to the NFL? Well, in college you get a
scholarship check for a few $100a month and that's all you have
to live on. And so my rent in college was
300 bucks a month, which I thought was high.
And you know, my food bill was maybe a couple 100 bucks a
month, which I thought was outrageously high.

(19:41):
And so we were used to spending 5 or 10 bucks a week on
auxiliary things, you know, gas.For my moped, that was about a
dollar. And I had to put in gas every
couple weeks. And outside of that, maybe a
couple of drinks at the bar. That was the only spending you
could afford. And that was great.

(20:03):
Life was awesome. There's nothing else you needed.
But, you know, you get to the NFL and you buy a house and then
all of a sudden it's like, you know, we need to buy furniture
and I'm like, all right, well, great.
Walmart or Big Lots, it's right down the street.
You can get some really nice quality stuff for good prices.
She's like, well, I want to get a interior decorator.
And you know, anybody that's ever had an interior decorator

(20:25):
understands that they're not going to Walmart and Big Lots to
pick out the furniture. And then it's like, you know,
$1000 for new curtains and drapes and stuff.
And I'm like, what? No way.
That's the dumbest thing on earth.
Like it doesn't make any sense to me.
Like I even to this day, I just don't understand it, but I've
understood that it's going to bea fight if I try to understand

(20:45):
it. And so I just leave it alone and
put that into her little bucket of responsibilities.
And I'm like, I, I still, I still have a hard time
comprehending why people spend so much money on a house, like
on the inside of it, but I've accepted the fact that it makes
other people happy and interested.

(21:08):
So I'm like whatever, but typical guy just doesn't care.
What do you think's responsible for you knowing to be frugal?
I think it's how we were both raised, honestly, as I've gotten
to know my wife's parents and her family, we just come from
really frugal families and we'venever, our families have never

(21:30):
wasted money on things that aren't practical.
And especially my dad and, and even her dad, they're extremely
practical people. Like if it doesn't have a
practical purpose, it it serves no purpose in their lives.
And I think that's just kind of how I was raised completely
function over form. And my dad growing up had a car

(21:52):
that didn't go in reverse. And he saw no problem with that
because you put it in neutral and you stick your foot out the
door and you do the Fred Flintstone and there you go.
There's your reverse. It doesn't cost you anything.
And, you know, that's just kind of how we were raised.
Never saw any problem with that whatsoever.
And, you know, that's how Annie was raised.
So that's just kind of been our mindset our whole life.

(22:16):
And now, you know, being in the NFL for 10 years, obviously we
we buy some nicer stuff, but some of it I still just don't
understand. Like the curtain thing, that's
just crazy to me. I just don't get it.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but younever thought you were going to
be able to make it to the NFL? Never even thought about.
It and your dad as well? Yeah, didn't think so.

(22:37):
My parents were really good at keeping me grounded and kind of
letting me know. Keeping your expectations.
Well, yes, yes, exactly. That was with everything, with
Christmas. Hey, you're not getting any
gifts. And then, hey, if we give you a
new pair of socks, you should bevery happy.
I'm just kidding. They were really great and
generous. But that was kind of the motto,
you know, and that's I guess themotto that I kind of carry on
with me and my family and my kids.

(22:58):
But. I mean, but if you didn't think
you can do it, make it to the NFL, and like your dad didn't
think that that was necessarily the path, what then gave you the
confidence to keep pursuing it? Well, I think part of the reason
they kept the expectations wherethey were is because they saw

(23:19):
correctly so that a lot of kids have this NFL dream and they
forget the reality that not manyguys make it to the NFL.
In addition, a lot of guys commit to trying to make the NFL
when they have no chance and they give up on their academics.
And so they didn't want me thinking, oh, I'm going to just
go play in the NFL so I don't have to worry about my studies.

(23:40):
So they wanted to make sure thatI I focused on that.
And then they were realistic about the fact that there just
wasn't a lot of opportunity to make the NFL because of the
chances of it happening. And I think it never prevented
me from giving my best effort incollege football.
And it wasn't really until my junior year when people started
asking me if I was going to comeout early for the draft that I

(24:02):
realized I even had a chance to play in the NFL.
And then that at that point I then I realized like, wow, OK, I
am good enough to play in the NFL and I might get drafted.
You remember the first time somebody asked you that?
Yeah, it was actually, I think my offensive line coach, Jim
Huber, at the time, he kind of was started talking to me about
it. And I'm like, what are you
talking about? I've only been a starter for a

(24:24):
couple years. Like, you got to be way better
to play in the NFL. Like I have no chance.
And he started talking to me. Oh, yeah.
You know, we have scouts coming in and are starting to ask about
you. And.
And I was just flabbergasted because like I said, my parents
never, you know, opened up that door for me and I never opened
it up for myself. And I think that was a good

(24:45):
thing because it just kind of kept me focused and humbled on
the things that I'm doing in my life.
And, you know, worry about school and, and you're going to
show up and give your all on thefootball field.
So it's not a concern. And whatever happens, happens.
Right. They kept your expectations in
line with reality, so you had a quality backup plan.
And when you're getting a 3.53 point 6 GPA in college and

(25:09):
interning at Merrill Lynch, or you know, wherever else you, you
spent time, you're preparing in case it doesn't work out or if
your career in the NFL is only you, you know a couple years.
I know this story's been become that kind of a legend, but why
decide to go fishing instead of attend the draft when you know

(25:35):
you would have had the opportunity to, you know, be
there in a national TV, have your name called in front of the
world? Yeah, well, even to this day,
I'm I'm I've become more comfortable with media attention
and more comfortable behind the camera or microphone because you

(25:56):
have to do it so much in the NFL, but in college, you don't
have that experience all that often.
And so my nature is kind of justto shun most of the spotlight.
And I've just kind of done the things I've done because I've
enjoyed it. Love always loved playing
sports, loved football, enjoyed family and friends.

(26:16):
And so I just kind of always done that stuff, never for any
of the attention or anything like like that.
And so the idea of going to New York for five days and kind of
being paraded around by the NFL as they, you know, make money
off your every step and the whole purpose is just for
publicity. For me to stand there in a suit
and go look at me, everybody, you know, give the commissioner

(26:39):
a hug and everything, I was like, why would I want to do
that? That sounds horrible.
I can't imagine a reason why anybody would want to do that.
But we'll do it every year. I mean, most people are excited.
And actually, actually the NFL was like shocked that I didn't
want to do it. And I'm like, that doesn't sound
like fun. That sounds horrible.
Like I just like football and I like hanging out with my friends
and stuff. And this sounds horrible.

(27:00):
I don't even own a suit. I mean, where am I going to get
a suit for to go to the draft inNew York.
And at that time, I didn't really have a lot of experience
in big cities and I've never been to New York before.
And I was like, that's a big scary place.
Why would I want to go to New York?
Like that's where people go to die.
Like this is I can't do this. And, and on top of that, it was,

(27:20):
it was like the pre draft process is very intense and the,
the combine and the pro day and the workouts and the interviews
you do. And it's very busy and, and kind
of the draft weekend. It can be that last moment that
you have sort of in your life that you've become accustomed to

(27:41):
for the last 4-5 years. If you're just in college there
or for me, I was in living in Wisconsin my whole life up to
that point. I think it was 22 years old.
And so once you get drafted, youimmediately get whisked away to
the city that drafts you and immediately start your new life
because you go right into OTA practices and mini camp

(28:05):
practices and you buy a house oryou rent an apartment right
away. And then you get a couple weeks
off in the summer and then you're back into the season and,
and your old life is gone. And so your last kind of
opportunity to spend some time with your family and your old
life is right around the draft. And so I didn't want to miss
that opportunity to be able to enjoy an afternoon fishing with

(28:28):
my dad, which is something that we had done growing up a ton of
times on Lake MI. I mean, especially before I
really got deeply involved in sports.
That was like every Saturday, mydad would wake me up at 3:34 in
the morning and I'd jump in the back of the car and fall asleep
in the car. We'd get to the lake, I'd get in
the boat, I'd fall asleep in theboat and he'd wake me up as soon

(28:50):
as we started catching fish. And so the the memories that I
had doing that and knowing that life was about to change, I
wanted to just really enjoy thatwith my family.
And, and so it was more a way tokind of shun the spotlight and
shun kind of the attention of the NFL draft.

(29:10):
And it was funny that it kind ofturned into more of an attention
thing than I expected, and then maybe even more than if I would
have gone to the draft, because nobody would be talking about me
on draft day if I would have gone to the draft.
But since I didn't go, it becamea story unintentionally.
And so it's kind of funny how those things happen.
But I definitely don't regret being there on the boat that day

(29:34):
because I had a really fun day and it looked like those guys at
the draft were sweating it out. What did what did the NFL say
when they found out you were declining?
It was, it was so funny because obviously they have a huge
vested interest in getting the players there, right?
I mean, basically they have millions of viewer audience that

(29:56):
are watching this show and they need characters in their show.
They need actors. And so they need cheap actors.
And what's better than cheap actors is free actors, and they
get all these players to show upfor free and then they become
part of the soap opera of the NFL, which is, which is great
for some guys. The guy that goes first overall

(30:16):
and holds that jersey up, he's happy.
His family's there and you know,everyone gives him the pat on
the back and he gets to hug the commissioner or has to hug the
commissioner now. But then there's the guy that
just plummets in the draft and he's there sweating it out and
he's got 5 cameras in his face. Your teammate once teammate,
Brady Quinn. Exactly.
And a couple years before that, Aaron Rodgers and I saw that and

(30:38):
that left the impression on me, you know, for for them to abuse
a player like that that's doing that for free.
I thought was it was really tough.
And I was like, at that time a young guy, I was thinking to
myself too, I don't know if I could handle that.
I mean, that would be emotionally crushing.

(31:01):
I mean, you become the story of the draft and your failure is
the story of the draft, and thatbecomes the reason people watch
the draft is to watch you sweat.That sounds terrible for free.
Can't believe it? If you knew you were going to go
#1 would you have gone? No.
Like even that, like I, I could see the guy that really loves

(31:23):
attention, you know, would want to be on TV, get his face up
there, maybe get his Nike commercial or his Under Armour
commercial or Snickers or whatever he wants to sell.
You know, that's great for him. That's just, that's just not
exactly who I am. But back to your original
question. Wait, so.
That that that means, so that means you're saying if the guy
the Browns draft first overall this year goes to the draft,

(31:46):
he's an attention seeker. There's a lot of them out there
these days. You know, there was no social
media when I was a rookie, so these kids are a little
different these days. To describe the moment when
you're on the out fishing with your dad of getting the call.
Well, it was a fun day, but it was interesting because

(32:07):
originally my plan was I was going to go hunting because I
just didn't want any cameras around.
I wanted just to kind of get away from it.
I was just kind of burned out from the whole pre draft
process. I just wanted to play football.
I was like, I don't care where Igo, I just want to get it over
with and just start working on becoming a rookie and having the
best rookie career, rookie season that I can have.

(32:29):
And my agent's like, you can't do that.
They need to be able to call youbefore they draft you because I
guess many years ago one team accidentally drafted a player
that had passed away. And so now they want to make
sure when 5 minutes before they draft you, they want to call you
and make sure you're alive firstof all.

(32:50):
And they also want to make sure that nothing has changed in your
situation since the last time they talked to you, which was
probably a couple days ago. They want to make sure that on
if the draft Saturday, on Fridaynight, you didn't go out and go
to the bar and get arrested for beating somebody up.
And now they're drafting you andyou're, you've got an arrest on

(33:11):
your record that they don't knowabout.
So they need to be able to contact you.
So he was like, you can't go hunting by yourself, like you
can't do it. So I was like, well, can I go
fishing? He's like, well, if you can have
cell service and if you can listen to the draft on the
radio, kind of listen along. So on the boat that we were on,
they had the radio on and they got like XM radio or something

(33:32):
where they could get the draft on there So we could listen to
the draft. And I had a cell phone and we
had to kind of troll in the boatclose enough to cell phone
towers where if they needed to call me, we can pick it up.
But I did want to answer your question about what the NFL
thought. Because Oh yeah, yeah.
Interesting. So Gill Brandt, who is a

(33:53):
legendary NFL scout for the Cowboys and now he works for the
NFL and the combine and all thatstuff.
Great guy, great scout, but he was kind of in charge of
deciding who gets to go to the draft.
And at that time, it was 5 players maybe.
And so I was one of the five players selected.
And they sent you the letter from Gil and it's, hey,
congratulations, you're going tocome to the draft on behalf of

(34:16):
the NFL. Great job, buddy.
And I was like, OK, no, I'm not.So I just like threw the letter
away or whatever. And, you know, a couple weeks
later, I'm I'm getting all thesecalls from this number from, I
don't even know where it was from.
And I pick it up and it's, you know, Gil and he's like, you
have to come to the draft. Nobody's ever turned it down.
And I kind of tried to give him the explanation.
You know, I'm just not somebody that seeks attention or the

(34:36):
spotlight. And so it just, it just doesn't
appeal to me. And I'm just going to, you know,
spend the day with my family. Just kind of low key.
I don't want to have a big party.
You know, I'm not, I mean, I like the party, but I'm not like
the guy that wants to have 100 people over watching TV.
And, you know, I got drafted because to me, the draft was
just the entry into the NFL. It wasn't the event that I've

(34:57):
been planning my whole life, which kind of goes back to I
never really thought I was goingto be in the NFL.
So I never dreamed of being drafted.
So that wasn't like a big day tome to to me, the draft was a non
event. It was it was I want to be with
my team to get ready to play football because rookie year is
kind of when your career starts.And I want to be a great NFL

(35:18):
player. I don't care about where I'm
drafted. But anyway, so he, he kind of
like hung up and I get a call like 3 days later and, and now
they're getting more upset. They're like, you have to come.
Nobody's ever turned it down, you know, and then it started
turning into the, the teams are going to think you're a prima
Donna and they're not going to want to draft you anymore
because you you're shunning the draft.
And, and they tried to turn it into like me seeking attention

(35:41):
or me trying to pull something on the NFL or being anti
establishment or whatever. They were trying to just accuse
me of being, to try to coerce meinto showing up at the draft.
And I I really think my agent, Peter Shaffer, for just being
real upfront about it and saying, look, these guys are
just BS ING you. They're just doing what they can

(36:02):
to try to get you there because they need the actors for their
TV show to show up so that they can sell tickets and get people
to watch on TV. So they need they need you guys
there. But.
You don't. Have to go.
Who is saying? I don't want to go.
Who was saying that? It was coming from Gil Brant and
I'm sure it was coming. I mean, it was coming from the
people at the NFL and who were saying, hey, Gil, it's it's your

(36:22):
responsibility to get these guysthere.
So, you know, and so they were coming up with every excuse in
the book on why I had to go to the draft or teams.
I'd be undraftable, right? Just like no, like if anything,
teams are going to respect it. You're not all in it thinking
that the draft is the end of your career, that you're just
thinking of the draft as a non event and you're excited about

(36:44):
being a rookie and playing in the NFL and being great in the
NFL. So you're out on the boat,
you're trying to keep close to cell towers, you're listening to
it on the radio. And you know, how did you find
out? So the Browns called me and
thankfully we were close enough to sell service that we could

(37:05):
get the call. But Jamarcus Russell went first
overall to Oakland. I'd heard the day before that we
weren't going to go first overall and that it was either
going to be Detroit or Cleveland.
And if Cleveland didn't take me,they might trade out and
somebody else might trade up. But we had a pretty good idea.
I probably wasn't going to go past #3 And so I wasn't

(37:29):
listening too intently with the first pick because we kind of
knew it was, it wasn't going to be, it would be either be Calvin
Johnson or Jamarcus Russell was kind of the scuttlebutt on the
street. And so once Detroit was on the
clock with the second pick, that's when we started kind of
listening. But we're still catching some
fish. So I was, you know, a little
preoccupied reeling my big troutin.
And it was right after the 2nd pick where Cleveland called me

(37:53):
when they were on the clock and,and said, hey, you know, this is
Romeo Cornell, this is Phil Savage.
We want to congratulate you on becoming a Cleveland Brown.
And at that point, you know, I was woo Hoo, we were hooping it
up and high fiving. And at that point my agent
called and and he said, hey, we need to get back to shore
because Cleveland's flying you as soon as you can to Cleveland

(38:16):
for like a press conference. And so at that moment, the
whirlwind started and it was just as crazy as I expected it
right after that. Emotional.
A little bit, but it wasn't unexpected.
So I think that kind of temperedthe emotion a little bit.
What was it like the first time playing at Lambeau Field?

(38:36):
It was emotional for me growing up in Wisconsin.
I was a big Packer fan my whole life.
I'd only been able to go to one or two Packer games because
tickets are so difficult to get in Wisconsin, especially in the
90s because the Packers won the 9697 Super Bowl and then they
went to the next Super Bowl and they were just a great team in

(38:57):
the late 90s with Reggie White and Brett Favre and multiple
Hall of Farmers on that team. Favre was kind of as close to an
idol as you. Oh, absolutely.
For me, Brett Favre, Reggie White, those guys were gods when
I was a kid because every SundayI'd watched the Packers with my
dad right after church, we'd race home and we'd sit down on

(39:20):
the couch and that was the only TVI got to watch during the
week. And it was awesome.
I mean, it was it was a real family experience.
And so the couple times I did get to go to Lambeau Field, it
was like, this is your coming into adulthood moment.
Like my dad and his buddies brought me into the fold and I
got to go to their tailgate and like go to the game with them.
And I remember the the first game I went to was actually a

(39:44):
playoff game against the Vikings.
It was a game that Randy Moss scored a touchdown and pulled
his pants down or pretended to and like wiped his pot on the
cold post. And we were sitting like way up
in the nosebleeds. And I remember leading over to
my dad and saying, Hey, dad, what did he do?
Why did he get a penalty? And my dad was like, I'm not
sure what happened, son, you know, even though I'm sure he
saw it, he just didn't want to have to explain to his, you

(40:05):
know, 14 year old kid what this guy was doing.
But it was it was an amazing experience.
So then when I. Finally got the opportunity as a
player to come back to Lambeau and play there.
There was just an emotional feeling just walking out of that
tunnel. And that was kind of living a
childhood dream because I think anybody that grows up in
Wisconsin dreams of playing for the Packers, just like any kid

(40:28):
that grows up in northern Ohio dreams of being a Cleveland
Brown and walking out of that tunnel at FirstEnergy Stadium.
You've been to 10 straight Pro Bowls.
What does that mean to you? I think, you know, when it's all
said and done, it'll be special.And it's special to me to have

(40:52):
double digit Pro Bowls because it's something so few people
have done. And I think it's it's almost the
most special to me to be able tobe in the same breath with some
of the legends that have played in Cleveland that have achieved
those same similar number of of Pro Bowls.

(41:13):
And the two guys that come to mind are Jim Brown and Lou
Groza, which are two of the greatest names in football
history and probably will live on for another 100 years as some
of the greatest names of football history.
And so to have my name in that category just because of the Pro

(41:35):
Bowl selections, it's special. And I think you know, when it's
when I'm done and retired 10 or 15 years, you'll look back on
that and and think about that accomplishment.
How many consecutive snaps have you played?
That's a good question actually.I don't know the exact number

(41:55):
because it's not an official stat.
It's almost like a tackle stat. For people that follow football
closely, they understand that tackles are stats that are kept
by the teams. So it's not like a sack or a
catch or anything like that. It's not an NFL stat, so nobody
really has a good exact number. The Browns tried to tabulate it
this year and so they thought itwas somewhere right around

(42:18):
10,000, but it's not an officialstat that we have tabulated.
And to give that context, that'severy single snap that you could
have played for 10 years. Right, exactly.
So on average you play about 1000 snaps in a season, you know

(42:38):
roughly 68 to 72 per game. And then you know over a 16 game
season it roughly comes out to right right around 1000.
So throughout my career, every season has been about 1000
snaps. And what does it mean to you to
have never missed one? To me, that's kind of special
because I think I've kind of prided myself on durability and

(42:59):
toughness throughout my career, even going back to college and
high school. And so I think that statistic is
kind of a sense of pride for me.Give me the step by step when
your first year head coach sendsa backup into a game to pull you
out. Well, it was interesting because

(43:21):
I think it was my eighth season and I would say the first five
or six years you go by and you don't miss a snap, but it's not
really mentionable because it's just not that rare.
I mean, plenty of people do it every year, so it's not the most
rare thing in the world. But by about year six or seven,

(43:42):
people started taking notice that I hadn't missed a snap.
And so by Year 8, I knew that I hadn't missed a snap and it was
kind of a streak that I was interested in preserving.
And rightfully so. Rightfully so.
I mean, there's no reason to just leave a game unless you
have to at that point. And we were playing the Steelers
and we started the season really, really hot.

(44:03):
And it was one of the first games in my career where we were
actually blowing the opponent out.
Usually we're the ones getting blown out.
So it was a nice change of pace.And my coach started subbing
some of the better players on the team outs because he didn't
want them to get hurt at the endof a a blowout game.
And you know, of course I'm out there and I see the backup left

(44:25):
tackle running onto the field ata time out.
I'm looking over there like, whogot hurt?
Like what's going on? And he comes over and stands
next to me and says, hey, Joe, Igot you.
I'm like, you don't got me. I'm like, get the out of here.
And and he's like, you know, andthat poor guy, you know, he's
just following orders. And he's like, I don't know what

(44:46):
to do. And like, so he's asking
everybody on the line, can I getyou?
Can I get you? And everyone's like, no, no, get
out of here, get out of here. So of course he had to turn
around and Sprint his little butt back to the sideline.
And and the coach is like, what's going on?
And, you know, I don't think it was till after the game that the
coach realized that, you know, Ihad a streak that I didn't want
to destroy just because we were winning a game.

(45:10):
And so I'm glad I did that. But I could also see myself just
following instructions and turning around and running off
the field without even thinking about it.
And that would have been devastating.
You know it probably would have in hindsight, especially now
knowing that I made it 10 years without missing a snap.
What did the coach say to you the first time you interacted
with? Yeah, it was funny after, I

(45:31):
think somebody on the sideline may have told him like right
towards the end of the game. And so by the time the game was
over, he came up to me and just said, hey, Joe, I'm so sorry.
I didn't know you had a streak going.
You know, we were just trying toget you out of there because our
center actually had gotten hurt in the game already.
And he said, you know, we're winning the game.
I don't want anybody to get hurtunnecessarily.
You're obviously like so statistically accomplished and

(45:53):
the best at your position and we'll go down as one of the all
time NFL greats. Explain the difference though,
in notoriety you would receive if you were statistically as
accomplished as a quarterback. It would be a little bit

(46:14):
different. I'm happy that I'm not because I
do like flying under the radar alittle bit.
But certainly as a quarterback, you wonder, you know, if I was
as gifted at quarterback as I amas a left tackle, you probably
wouldn't be walking through the grocery store the way I do now
kind of unnoticed. So certainly there would be some

(46:37):
benefits, but I do enjoy some ambiguity a little bit.
To what extent that times does it ever bother you that maybe
you don't get the mainstream recognition that you've rightly
earned or, you know, deserve based on your success?

(46:58):
I think as a lineman you've you've kind of been groomed to
have a little chip on your shoulder and kind of appreciate
working through The Dirty hard times and not getting any credit
for it. There's a saying that the
offensive line are are mushroomsand it's considered a mushroom
society because everyone wants to throw us in a dark room and

(47:22):
throw on us every day. And then they expect us to bloom
into something that's delicious.And that's kind of how they
treat the lineman. They, you know, shove you in the
corner of the practice field. You get your little 5 yard by 5
yard square and they throw a couple toys at you and you just
push the sleds around all day. Meanwhile, the skilled guys are
out in the field taking up half of the field running their

(47:42):
routes and getting all the the cameras in their faces.
They're making the over the shoulder catches.
And when things go great, the quarterback's the first guy that
gets the pat on the back and thereceiver gets the hug.
And the the defensive end that made the game-winning sack gets
lifted up and carried off the field.
And nobody remembers the online until you're the one that's
giving up the sack that loses the game.

(48:04):
And then you're the GOAT and you're the reason that we lost
and we need to get you out of here.
And so I think the business thatwe're in, we have to kind of
accept that and, and had that wehave to almost embrace sort of
that mushroom society. And so I think I, I feel like
I'm definitely one of the guys that has done that.
Yeah, I mean in they don't pay attention to you until I mean

(48:30):
they you, you almost forced themto pay attention to you.
So I mean, how have you seen that start to change is you're
only having more and more success, becoming more and more
accomplished? It's been interesting to say the
least because like you said, as as a lineman, you only get
noticed when you do something bad typically.

(48:51):
And so as the Pro Bowls kind of have stacked up and the
accolades have kind of come in from that perspective, it does
come with some attention and it is difficult at times handling
it. But I think I try to have fun
with it sometimes as well and and try to enjoy some aspects of

(49:11):
it. So that has been kind of.
Fun. What do you find difficult about
it? You know, just the just the
attention when you're, you know,just want to hang out with your
family or when you're for, for me, I just kind of like a lot of
just time with my friends and myfamily, just low key stuff.

(49:33):
I just like being an everyday regular guy.
And so sometimes as you have more success in the NFL, it
becomes a little bit more difficult to just be a normal
regular guy. What do you think's responsible
for your success? Well, I got to thank my parents
because certainly my DNA that they've given me was a

(49:57):
predominant factor in my success.
I don't think there's many 5 foot 8 offensive lineman,
especially left tackles out there.
So being 6-7 or six, six, 300 lbs has certainly been a big
benefit. And your kids are going to be.
My kids are going to be large kids.
Are. Going to be similarly large, but

(50:20):
I think too, you know, the kind of the work ethic and the
toughness that they ingrained inme from when I was a kid
certainly would have a big impact on the type of football
player that I've become. To what extent does fear of
failure still motivate you? It's funny because I think that
fear of failure was must have been bred in me or was innate

(50:43):
growing up. And it wasn't until college and
the pros when I started talking to other players on the
offensive line that have had a lot of success or coaches that
have coached guys that have a lot of success and they talk
about what motivates them. And, and almost to a man, every
one of them is motivated by the fear of failure.

(51:04):
The fear of being the reason youlost or the fear of being the
one that everybody on the team looks at and says we need to get
rid of this guy. And I think in a large part,
that was always my motivating factor.
And I think that's what kind of separates offensive lineman
maybe from a lot of the other positions because we're judged

(51:25):
by our lack of failure. So the more lack of failure we
have, the better of a player we are.
Whereas if you're a receiver or a defensive end or a linebacker,
you're only measured by the number of successes you have in
a game. So if an offensive lineman has
70 snaps and and I do 68 pancakeblocks, perfect blocks, and then

(51:50):
I give up two sacks at the end of the game with the game on the
line, the fans and the coaches are going to be calling for my
head at the end of a game. And nobody saw the 68 plays
where I completely dominated my player.
But as a defensive end, I could be getting my butt whipped for
68 plays, but I make the one sack at the end of the game that
seals the victory and I'm the player of the game.

(52:12):
And so I think sort of a mindsetthat you have to have as an
office alignment is I am so afraid of at any moment getting
beat that it motivates me to be perfect on every play. 47 wins,
112 losses, 6 different head coaches, 18 ish starting

(52:33):
quarterbacks during your ten seasons with Cleveland.
How do you handle so much losing?
Well, it's been really tough, especially early in my career.
It was really difficult because I came from a program at
Wisconsin that didn't lose much my senior year.
We only lost one game. But learning how to rebound from

(52:56):
losing was probably the hardest thing that I had to do in the
NFL because especially during myrookie season, it was very
difficult to put everything you have into a game and not get the
results. And then turn around two days
after the game and be ready to dive into the next week of
preparation with all your energyand enthusiasm and positivity

(53:18):
that you need to prepare for an NFL game the next week.
So I think kind of learning how to bounce back was one of the
most important things in my career.
Well, and there was an interesting quote.
There was an ESPN profile that was written on you, and I'm sure
you read it, but the quote was There is something romantic or
maybe maniacal about a man who comes to work every day, pours

(53:39):
his heart and soul into preparing for a game, and does
so well that he grades off the charts, but loses that game
nearly every week and still comes back every Monday for
more. Yeah, I'm disturbed for sure.
Yeah. I don't know.
It's, it's the hardest thing in pro sports is to lose an NFL

(54:04):
game because there's so few of them.
In basketball, you play a game every night, you know, you lose
tonight, Oh well, we got anothergame tomorrow.
And the preparation is just so different.
In baseball, what do they practice a couple times in the
spring and then, you know, take batting practice during the
year, But other than that, you just go play.
There's not a lot of preparationinvolved.

(54:24):
But in football, you literally put an entire week's worth of
work into every single game. And we're not talking about a 40
hour work week, we're talking about 60-70 hour work week.
You know, 10 to 20 hours of filmstudy on your opponent alone for
that week. And you put your entire heart
and soul emotionally, physically, mentally in a game.

(54:47):
And then to come up short sometimes through no fault of
your own. It's something that's difficult
for the human mind to wrap themselves around, especially in
most sports where you have a great deal of influence over the
outcome. How does it affect you the
losing still to this day? Well, I think it's really hard

(55:10):
Monday and it's really hard on Tuesday, but I think I've
programmed myself enough where each week is like its own year
in my life and so a loss on the first week won't affect my
second week of play because I kind of have a 2 day rule.
So Monday you feel horrible, Tuesday you feel horrible.

(55:32):
But by the time I wake up on Wednesday morning, I've
programmed and demanded on myself that I have forgotten
about what happened the week before.
I've taken the lessons away thatI need to take, but now I'm
completely focused on the next week.
To what extent, even if not for you, do you think mediocrity

(55:53):
almost has become normal or acceptable to some?
Well, I think it's it's easy forsome people to just accept their
situation, and it's important inthe NFL to constantly be
striving for improvement. No matter who you are, no matter

(56:16):
if you're Tom Brady or if you'rethe last person on the roster.
I think it's important to understand that if you're not
improving, you're getting worse every season.
That's just the way the NFL is. Nobody stays the same.
So if you don't think you're improving, you're probably the
one that's getting worse. So I think even in year going

(56:38):
into Year 11 for me, I feel likeI've got this list of things
that I want to improve on and I'm going to work all offseason
and all during the season and try to get better at those
things. If it got to a point in
Cleveland where you knew you just couldn't win and you had
the opportunity to play for a team that you knew had the

(57:01):
legitimate shot at making it to the Super Bowl, how much
consideration would you give that?
I guess each opportunity is kindof its own entity that you would
have to consider. But I don't know if the NFL is
as black and white as fans sometimes think it is.

(57:22):
A lot of times fans think like, oh, the Browns, you'll never
win, and oh, the Packers or the Patriots, whoever, all they'll
definitely go to the Super Bowl every year.
But the predictability of the NFL just isn't there to me.
And I guess maybe it's the eternal optimist in me, but I
start every Cleveland Browns season thinking, you know, we
got a pretty good chance. Like this really could be our

(57:43):
year to turn it around. And to me, it would just mean so
much more to be part of buildinga champion, not just riding the
coattails of a champion and ice.You see a lot of guys that flash
Super Bowl rings and a lot of guys that didn't play it down
the whole season. They got a Super Bowl ring, you
know? Are they proud of that?
I don't know. There wasn't a lot of work.

(58:03):
I mean, there was some work thatwent into it, but I'm a firm
believer in unless you have to give something up, what you get
doesn't really mean anything. So unless you're the one that's
on the field building the champion from the beginning, I
don't know that that championship really has the

(58:24):
meaning that it should. And to me, if if I want to win a
Super Bowl, I want to be a majorpart of the team that was built
from the ground up. And I was a big piece of that
puzzle. I was a big building block of
that championship. You almost got traded to Denver,
or at least there were serious talks.

(58:46):
How did you feel about the Browns engaging in those talks?
Doesn't bother me one bit. I'm old enough in the NFL to
understand that this is a business.
We are poker chips in the game of the NFL.
Yeah, but at the same time, I mean, here you are.
I mean, now 10 year vet Pro Bowlevery year played every snap,

(59:08):
doing everything you can to makethe team as successful as
possible. You haven't, you know, asked for
a trade. You've been the consummate
professional and that doesn't bother you at all.
It doesn't because I understand that the decisions made by
people running the team have emotion completely detached from

(59:31):
it. There is no such thing as well.
He's been a great asset for our organization.
He's he's great with the fans, so we'll keep him around.
Doesn't happen. It is a fiction.
It's something that fans sometimes think happens, but as
soon as you cannot produce for ateam, you're gone.
And so as soon as they can get something out of you that maybe

(59:53):
is more than they think your value is to the team, they're
going to trade you just because you were there for a long time
or have done a long a lot of good things for the team.
Unfortunately, that's just not the way this business model
works. And I'm OK with that.
So I understand that as an assetfor the Browns or a commodity,

(01:00:15):
if they feel that my value beingtraded is greater than the value
I bring to this team, they're going to trade me.
And that's their fiduciary responsibility to the owner that
pays them every single week. And so by engaging in trade
talks doesn't bother me one bit because I know that it doesn't
matter who you are. I guarantee Bill Belichick has

(01:00:37):
thought about trading Tom Brady because he thinks he might be
able to get a King's ransom. So you just, you can't take it
personally. You can't have feelings involved
in the NFL. It's not a personal business.
It's not personal decisions. It's just part of the business.
How does it make you feel when there have been a couple former

(01:00:57):
teammates of yours who've said they hope you get traded to a
winner? Well, it's nice of them to care
about my personal interests so much, and that's great.
I, you know, there's there's people that that say, you know,
hey, you deserve to play for a winner.
But my mind has always been, yeah, and it's in Cleveland and

(01:01:19):
I'm going to bring the winner here.
You know, there's no reason we can't do it in Cleveland.
How concerned are you about the lasting impact playing could
have on your brain? Sure, there's definitely a, a
concern, but I think the way I look at it is just about every
profession in our society, there's some lasting effects

(01:01:42):
and, and it's just the way that our society set up.
People have to work. And so if I was a stone Mason or
if I was a painter, or if I was,you know, building bridges or
whatever, there's going to be some wear and tear on your body
and your brain. And, and that's just the way it
is to be able to live the lifestyle and provide for my

(01:02:05):
family that football has been able to do to me.
It's, it's a trade off. I'm I'm willing to accept.
Right. I mean, some jobs have.
Well, I mean, look at you. You sit in a chair all day.
Your hip flexors are probably. Short.
You probably have a bad back. You know, you probably have to
have The Walking the standing desk.

(01:02:25):
I mean. All that travel, Can you imagine
the brain? I mean, how?
How do you survive the lack of oxygen up in the air?
Right, it's terrible, but I. Feel bad for you?
Are you worried about your brain?
Your your wife though's concerned.
I mean, she's told me. Well, she's the one that's going
to have to deal with it, right? Who are you?
Where did I get here? Right.

(01:02:46):
But I mean, she's told me like you guys will be driving and
you'll get upset and she'll be like, that's it, It's starting
CTE and you'll be like, no, somebody just cut me off.
But but I mean, how do you actually?
Handle those concerns. I I think from my perspective
just kind of being good-natured about it hopefully will help.

(01:03:07):
I definitely expect memory loss I think.
You do. Yeah, I'm already seeing memory
loss and maybe that's just because of my old age or maybe
it's football. It's hard to tell.
I mean, there's no double-blind studies when it comes to
people's life. It's, it's just, I think a part
of sometimes getting older and it's hard to tell if it's
because of football or if it's just because of, you know,

(01:03:31):
you're 32 and you're not 21 anymore and you've got a lot of
stuff going on in your life, but.
Like like what sort of just? Memory loss, just short term
memory loss. Hard, hard times remembering,
like things that have happened recently, like, you know, you
walk to the grocery store and you're like, I can't remember
what I needed to get, you know, just little stuff like that.

(01:03:54):
And I think if you let it reallybug you, I think it can make you
depressed and feel sad. Like, wow, I don't have the
memory I used to have, but you know, I try to be relatively
good-natured about it. But but does it bother you a
little bit? Like, not entirely sure.
Yeah, maybe, maybe a little bit like, oh, you know, is this
because of the football? Is that why I'm having a hard

(01:04:15):
time remembering some of this stuff?
Or is it just because, you know,as people get a little bit
older, they have a harder time remembering things?
And I'm not trying to make lightof guys that have really
significant memory loss and dementia.
Those are very, of course, serious things.
And, you know, hopefully I'm notgoing to be there down the line,

(01:04:36):
but I think, you know, I tell Annie I'm like, well, if I
forget who you are, just don't be mad about it.
That doesn't mean, you know, I don't love you anymore.
Just remind me, you know, just just tell me what's going on.
And, you know, I'm OK with that.And and, you know, maybe I'm
make making light of a a seriousissue, but I don't want to, you
know, convince myself or worry myself too much about it right

(01:04:59):
now because I think you can scare yourself.
You really can because there aresome obviously really terrible
side effects of the brain injuries that we see from
playing in the NFL as long as asI have.
Well, if you're being completelytransparent, what does concern

(01:05:21):
you the most on that front? Well, I think when you look at
some of the really serious side effects and diseases that have
come from the brain injuries that you receive playing
football, You know, you look at guys with significant, you know,
Alzheimer's and dementia and themood swings and the suicides

(01:05:42):
that unfortunately NFL players have been faced with and
depression, Lou Gehrig's disease.
These are all things that have kind of been linked to the brain
damage from football. And those are obviously
extremely scary and frightening things.
But you know, I think from from my perspective, it's I can't do

(01:06:03):
anything about it. This was the profession that I
have already chosen and all, andmost of the damage has probably
been done already. And So what are the things that
I can do to try to minimize my chances of having those negative
effects down the line and then do everything I possibly can.
And then I just can't worry about it.
I just have to accept it. But I do hope that medicine

(01:06:25):
continues to improve and so in 10 years, maybe they'll be able
to fix my body better than they did for the poor guys that are
crippled up from playing in the NFL in the 60s and the 70s.
Explain why you don't really feel good after a Sunday game
now until the following Saturday.
Yeah, well, when you're in your 30s, things become more

(01:06:49):
difficult when you exercise and then when you're playing NFL
football where you have £300 menthat run 4, seven, 40s, creating
a lot of energy, smashing into you 70 times in a in a day, you
tend to get a little sore all over your body for several days.
And when you're a younger man and you've got more hormones in

(01:07:12):
your body, you recover much quicker and you feel much better
after a game. You don't have to warm up as
much, but as you get older it just takes longer to feel better
again. And how drastic a change has
that been for you in terms of the recovery process from when
you entered the league versus? You know when you're when you're
a rookie, you start feeling better after a day.

(01:07:36):
Maybe you know by Tuesday you feel pretty good.
But you're 22 years old, so every 22 year old bounces back a
lot quicker. When you're 32, the bounce back
just takes a lot longer. And it was a gradual thing.
And I think it's pretty universal for most people that
play in the NFL. They they come in and they feel

(01:07:56):
like they're invincible. And then every year they just
kind of feel like it takes a little bit more out of them
every single game. How much do you practice now the
last month of the season? As little as possible.
I try to take the beating off ofmy body as much as possible
towards the end of the season because like you said, you know
those hits do add up and it's somuch worse as you get older and

(01:08:21):
it's better to save whatever hits you have left in your body
for game day towards the end of the season.
And tell what your Ferris Bueller's day is.
Well, the guys like to tease me a lot because I'll, I'll, I'll
take one practice day and I don't practice during the week
on one day. And so I'll usually do my own
workout and won't be on the field with the team.

(01:08:44):
And so the guys like to tease me, especially the, the really
super old media guys that, that played that like to tease me
about it because they never got a day off.
So they they call it the Ferris Bueller Day Off.
When do you want to play till? That's a great question.
I always say that I want to playas long as I'm healthy, enjoying

(01:09:04):
it and playing well and somebodystill wants me.
Yeah. I mean, I know I keep
referencing your wife. I think of her decision.
You probably would have retired a couple of years back and she
certainly doesn't seem to want you playing past your current
contract. What do you think of that?
You know, I don't think about ittoo much.
Oh, come on, I know you guys have had to have those.

(01:09:26):
Well, I think she's really respectful and she understands
that this has kind of been my career and this is spend my life
really when you play in the NFL,you commit your life to the
game. And so she's respectful in in
the fact that she knows that I will understand the right time
to give it up and I won't play longer than I should.

(01:09:47):
And so she's kind of left that up to me on how long, how long I
want to play. Could you see playing past your
current contract? I could.
I think it all kind of depends on my health and my.
I mean. Quality of play.
If you're healthy, if you're still playing at a top level,
would you like to keep going? I don't see why I wouldn't.

(01:10:10):
The NFL is a weird thing becauseit becomes part of who you are
and you become an NFL player. Whereas when you're a younger
player in college or even early in the NFL, you're just like a
person that happens to be an NFLplayer.
But the longer you've committed your life to it, that's becomes
who you are. And I think that happens with
any profession. But really the the level of

(01:10:31):
commitment you have to have to be at the top of your game in
football. You really have to be married to
the game. You have to commit every aspect
of every part of your life to being great at football.
And, and after you've done that for a long time, it becomes who
you are. And, and it's almost like when
that's gone, it's almost like that part of you has died.

(01:10:53):
And so it's really hard to give it up.
And how much of the desire to continue along those lines is
also because you aren't sure really what else you would do?
Well, I think, I think that's a big part of it for a lot of guys
too. I mean, I don't really know what
I want to do when I'm done playing.
And a lot of guys have that fearbecause if you retire from

(01:11:15):
football after a super long career, you're still only like
35 or 30 or even 40, which is the oldest guys in the NFL.
And you still have a whole life to live.
And so you almost have to reinvent yourself.
And so I think for a lot of guys, that's kind of scary
because what are you going to do?
You can go into coaching. But OK, OK, there's a few guys

(01:11:38):
that might want to go into coaching.
But if you're not going to go into coaching, what are you?
What are you going to do? You've trained yourself your
entire life to be a football player.
You have completely put the restof your life on hold.
So what are you going to do? You're just going to roll out of
bed and now you're going to be abanker or you're going to be an
accountant. Like you're going to start where
kids are that they're are 2120 years old coming out of college

(01:11:59):
right now and you're 40 years old.
So it's a it's a very difficult transition.
Right. I, I mean, except for the fact
that I mean, especially in your case and other successful
players, if you manage your money right, you, you know,
there's not the pressure to immediately find another job and
you have the resources to set yourself up in whatever the next

(01:12:25):
chapter is. Well, you know, you majored, I
know, in business in college with an emphasis in real estate,
urban land, economics. So, you know, and academics
obviously always important to you.
So I mean, where's your head at in terms of what you'd like?
To do I'm like trying to keep all my options open because I

(01:12:47):
don't really know what I want todo and and.
It's you're starting to think about it some though you.
You think about like things thatyou enjoy and you could see
yourself doing. But undoubtedly every player
that I've talked to that has retired says you can't do
nothing, which which sounds so simple, but most guys that have

(01:13:09):
made enough money that they don't have to work for the
financial side of it. They think, well, I'm just going
to, you know, do whatever I want, But it's such an empty
feeling. This is from those guys that
that they feel like they have tohave purpose in their life.
When you're 21 or 22 or 23 and you start playing football, all
you can think about is, wow, I can't wait till I have all this
money and then I can just do whatever I want.

(01:13:31):
But then you're 32 or 33 or 35 or 40 and you're saying, well,
my whole life has been so structured and every day the
purpose was I'm trying to becomea champion.
And now that's gone. I have no purpose in life and
without purpose, what am I doing?
And then that's when the depression sneaks in and, and

(01:13:52):
from people on the outside, they're thinking this guy's got
everything, he's got it all. He's got a family, he's got
himself financially set up. He can do whatever he wants.
But inside you're feeling empty because you have no purpose
because your whole life has had goals and purpose.
And so I think it's important for people as as NFL players
when they retire to find that purpose, whatever it is, it

(01:14:12):
doesn't, it doesn't necessarily have to be the most high paying
job or a job that even gives youany money.
But what's your purpose going tobe in life and what's going to
give you direction? What's going to be your compass?
And I think a lot of guys struggle and, and the NFLPA
actually has a saying that says you're in the wilderness for
guys that are right out of the NFL and they're trying to find

(01:14:35):
what that next chapter is in their life.
What, what are they going to become?
Who are they going to be? Because you're going to be a
totally different person than you were when you were playing
in the NFL. And until you find that purpose,
it's like being in the wilderness.
What ideas have you batted around?
Well, I, I think naturally when you play in the NFL, the career
that everyone just kind of expects you're going to take is

(01:14:57):
going to be radio, TV coaching because you want to still be
around the game. And I'm not crossing any of
those off my list. And I'd like to keep those
options open. But I'm not so naive to think
that just because you played in the NFL, you're just going to
roll over the next day and become great at whatever you're

(01:15:19):
going to want to do. And after you've made a lot of
Pro Bowls in the NFL or you've had a lot of success in the NFL,
whatever you do next, you're going to want to be successful.
You're going to want to strive to be the best because that's
what has given you satisfaction throughout your NFL career, the
process of becoming or trying tobecome the best.
And so whatever I want to do next, I want to become the best.

(01:15:41):
And that's going to take time and commitment, and it's going
to take sacrifice. And so I feel like I'm smart
enough to understand that I knowwhat I don't know and how much
commitment it will take to do all those things.
So I don't want to say for sure,but I also don't want to cross
it out. So maybe that's a long answer,
but I kind of want to keep thosedoors open so I have those

(01:16:02):
options. Because it's hard to know what
you want to do until you do it. I mean, when you started doing
the interview thing, were you committed?
You knew that's what you want todo the rest of your life.
I was like, man, I'm the best ever.
And you're like, this is good being the greatest.
So the remaining moments I have with you want to talk about some

(01:16:24):
current NFL topics. The first one being I think your
favorite topic and that being Commissioner Roger Goodell.
Why do you think Goodell is likeVince McMahon?
Well, I think because something that fans sometimes miss, and
it's, I think intentional from the NFL standpoint, they like

(01:16:48):
this, is that the NFL is an entertainment business.
As much as the NFL wants to sellto its fans that it's a pure
game, it's all about the game. It's all about competition and
who wins. It's not really about that.
It's the entertainment. That's why people show up on
Sundays. That's why people watch from

(01:17:08):
their couches, millions of people all over the country and
all over the world, because it'sentertaining.
That's football. Football's entertaining.
That's why it's the number one sport in North America, not
because it's the most pure game and there's the greatest search
for a champion. And that might be part of it,
but it's the entertainment side of it, which is the same thing
that Vince McMahon's in charge of.

(01:17:29):
He's in charge of entertaining, and that's why people show up to
watch wrestling events. And so Goodell's sole mission,
and that's why he was hired by the owners, was to make the most
money and to try to build the best product to entertain the
most fans, because that's how you make the most money.
What do you think of Goodell's judgement?

(01:17:53):
I think that Rodger is a extremely smart man.
I think he's a very, very good man and he's done a phenomenal
job for the NFL owners, taking the league to unprecedented
heights in revenue. I think he's made some some very
big mistakes in how he's handledplayers specifically, coaches in

(01:18:18):
fairness and meeting out discipline specifically and I
think. Like what?
Well, I think the things that he's made the biggest mistakes
on, not that anybody cares what I think about it because I'm not
the commissioner and he doesn't work for me, but I think.
Yeah, but you've also, because of your success, earned the

(01:18:40):
earned a voice. People like, let me put it this
way, fans seem to not like Rodger for the way he's punished
their favorite teams and their players.
So I never sought out publicity about my opinions about Rodger's
job that he's done at times. But it has become popular
because people like when playersspeak bad about the things that

(01:19:04):
Rodger has done to their favorite teams.
And so specifically, I think Deflategate was a big, big
issue. Obviously, I think he did the
job that Rodger did handling that I thought was very poor in
in the face of overwhelming scientific evidence that the
Patriots did not deflate their footballs, he still decided to

(01:19:28):
suspend the guy four games, which is equivalent to using
steroids, which as we all know, would give you an enormous
competitive advantage. In addition to that, even if he
was deflating him, I'm not sure why we're supposed to care as
fans or players or as anybody. I don't even know why you have a

(01:19:50):
rule about how inflated the football has to be if a guy, and
this goes back, this goes back to the fact that the NFL is an
entertainment business. If the guy wants to throw a
pancake out there, but he can throw 100 yards down the field
and complete 90% of his passes. That's better for the fans.
They love to see entertainment. They love to see offense.

(01:20:11):
We should be encouraging these things.
These are the exact type of things that you should be
encouraging out of the players. You should be encouraging Tom
Brady to try to do his job as well as he possibly can within
some type of framework. And the only reason you would
have like steroid guidelines is because we know that steroids
are harmful to players health. That's why we ban steroids, not

(01:20:32):
because we don't want to see superhumans running around
crashing into each other. All right, but you have to have
some set of uniform rules and regulations, even not just
against things that are health. But but, but if if it's equal,
why would you have the rule? That's that's my question.
So as long as everybody's allowed to deflate their
footballs, why should we care ifit's better for the game?

(01:20:55):
If it's more offense and it's more entertaining, we should be
encouraging these guys to do it.So as long as it doesn't give
you an unfair advantage, which in my opinion, in the opinion of
most people, it's more of a comfort thing.
It would to me, the way I saw the deflated football thing was
more like I get to wear a pair of broken in shoes because I

(01:21:16):
like these shoes. They're more comfortable to me.
And for, for Tom Brady, maybe heliked the football that was a
little softer so he could grip it a little bit better.
I don't know why anybody should care.
You think Goodell should still be commissioner?
You know, that's not my decisionand I think that.
I mean if it was. Your if it was my decision if I
was a player or if I was an owner.

(01:21:38):
How about both? All right, so if I was an owner,
I would love Roger Goodell because he has taken every
single bullet from the NFL that's come their way.
He's been compensated handsomelyfor it.
He's made him an incredible amount of money in revenue.
He he was able to leverage the players and and win some

(01:21:59):
significant concessions from theplayers in the last bargaining
agreement. So if I'm an owner, I'm thinking
Roger Goodell is our guy. He is awesome.
If I'm a player, I would ask himto maybe change some things.
I think that he could do a good job.
So if you were a player, would you keep him?
No, if I was a player, I wouldn't.

(01:22:19):
I would put somebody in charge. But this is a player's
standpoint. So it's kind of kind of silly
because if the players were running the league, it would be
silly. But if I was a player, certainly
I think the mistakes he's made with his discipline in
Deflategate, his discipline in the Ray Rice situation where he
disciplined them and then when the PR was bad on the NFL, they

(01:22:42):
went back and they threw the book at him.
And then now he's not in the league.
You look at the Saints bounty gate.
I played with Scott Fujita, who was kind of wrapped up in that
thing, which I thought was handled poorly on Rogers behalf.
I thought that, you know, disciplining some of the Saints
players for doing something thatthe whole league had been doing

(01:23:05):
and disciplining him as steeply as he did was not fair.
I thought that maybe the best way to handle it would have been
sort of more of a political approach where you kind of let
the teams know that, hey, we've come under the we've become
aware of a situation where, you know, the coaches and players

(01:23:28):
might have little pools of moneygoing for players getting big
hits or injuries or and we don'tlike that.
That has no place in the NFL. We're going to stamp that out.
And if this next year we find out any of that is happening,
then we're going to punish people.
You know, it's almost like, I think the approach that he took
was we're going to try to crucify one person so that

(01:23:52):
everybody gets the message. And I don't know if that's the
best way to run your your league.
So if I was a player, I would, Iwould, I would remove him.
But nobody cares what I think so.
Johnny Manzel, What was your view of him when you were
teammates and what about now? I love Johnny.
I think he's a great person. He's very friendly.

(01:24:14):
He's he's a lot of fun. And I think that's probably been
a big part of his struggles in the NFL, though, is he's got so
many friends. He's got so many people that
want to be with him and want to hang out with him that it
detracts from his focus on beinga quarterback.
And to be an NFL quarterback, you have to be so obsessed and

(01:24:38):
committed to the game that you almost have no time in your life
for anything but a little bit offamily.
And the rest of it is being a quarterback.
And that's a commitment that fewpeople are willing to make.
It's almost a commitment above alevel of a coach.
But if you can't have that levelof commitment, you almost can't
succeed in the NFL as a quarterback.

(01:25:00):
In what way were the distractions evident when he was
here like to you personally? So being a quarterback just
starts when everyone leaves the building at the end of the day,
like as a lineman, as a receiver, the rest of the team,
I mean, meetings are over. You watch your film.
You know, the guys that stay thelongest.
Besides, a quarterback might watch an hour of film after

(01:25:20):
meetings are all over at the endof the day.
Well, a quarterback, he needs tobe there from 6:00 in the
morning until 11:00 PM. He needs to have coaches hours.
And if you don't do that, you just can't make it.
And so if you think that you're going to go to work and then
leave after meetings and go to dinner and a basketball game and

(01:25:42):
go get drinks with friends during the week, during the
during the season, just, you can't do it.
It's just not going to happen. And if you do it, you won't be
properly prepared on a Sunday. If you were saying that at the
time, did did you ever, did you ever want to like pull them
aside and say hey? Well, I think it's tough if
you're not a quarterback to coach a quarterback.
We had discussions and, and you talk, but in unless it's a

(01:26:05):
quarterback you're, you're self motivated to do those things.
Nobody's going to talk you into something you don't want to do.
How true is it that you once introduced yourself to the
quarterback in the huddle duringan actual game?
It's very true, actually. One of my favorite NFL stories.
We were playing the Steelers last game of the year.

(01:26:27):
We were out of the playoffs. I don't even know if they were
playing for anything, but we were down to our fourth string
quarterback going into the game as a starter.
Thad Lewis was the starter and we signed a guy off the street a
couple days before the game to be the backup because we had
nobody left. And in the game, lo and behold,

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Thad Lewis gets hurt and they bring this guy in that's only
been there for a couple days to be the quarterback in the
huddle. And he gets into the huddle
during a timeout. And I thought it was a perfect
time to introduce myself since I'd never met him before.
So I just reached out my hand and said I, I'm Joe Thomas, I'm
your left tackle, nice to meet you.
And he said, hey, I'm Josh Johnson, it's great to be here.

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And then he proceeded, I think, get sacked on the next play.
He. Explained the difficulty
involved with so many quarterback changes as it
pertains to your position. Well, it's really difficult as
an offensive lineman to have a lot of different quarterbacks
because our back is to the quarterback.

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So you never really know what he's doing.
You can only hope based on the play call that you know what
they're doing. And so when they're not doing
what they're supposed to, whether it be because they don't
know what they're supposed to door they're ad libbing, it makes
your job tougher because now you're always blocking for a

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spot. And if you don't know where that
spot is, how do you block for that spot unless you either know
where it's going to be or you'relooking at it and you're not
looking at it because my back's to them.
So it it adds A definite level of of difficulty plus quality.
Quarterback raises the level of play of everybody by how they
get rid of the ball, with their timing, how they coordinate the

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offense, the communication between the quarterback and all
the different facets on an offense.
So when you don't have that consistent quality play, it
makes everybody's job tougher. JJ Watt, how did you go about
finding out the connection you 2shared?

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Well, I actually knew him a little bit in high school.
He grew up, I don't know, 5 or 10 miles from my hometown, from
my house. You know, he grew up in Pewaukee
and I grew up in Brookfield. And if you look on a map, they
touch. And I grew up where I could have
thrown a stone across the road into Pewaukee.
So we grew up pretty close together.

(01:28:56):
And then when I was in the NFL, maybe my first year or two, he
was in high school. And I remember working out at
the same facility that he workedout at.
And then I remember when he was in college seeing him work out
there. And even at that time, he had
not really made a huge name for himself yet because he was kind

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of a late bloomer really. I mean, he started as a walk on
and then transferred into Wisconsin, only played one year
there. And then even I remember going
into the draft, I thought, you know, he'd be maybe a second
round, maybe a end of the first round pick.
And then he went to the combine and his numbers were off the
chart and he shot way up the draft and became one of the
higher picks. So I forgot what your question

(01:29:43):
was, but. That was how did you go about
finding out the connection you shared, But what so you guys
early on talked about, you know,kind of living close together.
And yeah, I mean, it was just natural because like I said, we
grew up so close together that Ijust, the first time I met him,

(01:30:06):
it was like, oh, hey, this is, you know, JJ, he's from Pewaukee
and he's getting some looks to play college football and, you
know, nice to meet you, that type of thing.
And so from the moment I met him, I knew he was from
Pewaukee. How crazy was it there to see
this guy who's one town over also become one of the top
players? Well, it is crazy to me because

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Wisconsin is not exactly a huge state.
We don't even have one city that's huge.
Like Milwaukee's our biggest city, which is the suburbs that
we grew up in. And it's not exactly a football
powerhouse. I mean, we're now kind of known
for our lineman because in the last 20 years or so, Wisconsin
has produced a lot of really good offense and defensive
lineman. But it's it's it's kind of the

(01:30:51):
the chances of having the defensive player of the year 3
times and a lineman, offensive lineman that's made 10 Pro Bowls
growing up within 5 or 10 miles of each other in very small
towns is probably pretty slim. What do you think of the success
he's had? I'm so proud of him.

(01:31:11):
I mean, he's the best defensive player in the NFL.
And for for me, I've got a lot of pride in my home state,
especially in light of the fact that we don't produce a lot of
football players. I'm very proud of my college at
Wisconsin because we have a great tradition, but we're not

(01:31:33):
spoken about at the upper echelon of college football a
lot like in Alabama. But we produce a heck of a lot
of really, really good offensivelineman, not defensive lineman
and football players. And I think it's great to get
some respect for our state and our college based on the things
that, you know, a guy like JJ does.
So LeBron tell about seeing him play for the first time in high

(01:31:58):
school? Yeah, so it was incredible.
I saw him. It was even before high school,
I want to say. We were maybe 13 or 14.
And my best friend at the time and I were playing on an AAU
team for Wisconsin and we went out to Las Vegas for a big AAU
tournament and his team was the Ohio Shooting Stars.

(01:32:20):
And I remember the program for the whole tournament, which was
like 500 teams from all over thecountry or something like that,
had him on the cover at like 13 or 14.
And even back then everyone was saying he's going to go to the
NBA right from high school and he's going to be this phenom.
And so his games had like 1000 people at it.

(01:32:41):
And usually an AEU game has yourfamily and a couple friends and
maybe like one guy that fell asleep in the bleachers or
something like that. But to see this huge crowd
coming to his game to watch him.And then I remember watching him
play and just being amazed because he was so tall, but he
played like a guard and it was just fantastic.

(01:33:01):
I just remember him. We were, you know, 13 or 14 or
wherever, and he ran from one baseline to the other baseline
and jumped up and blocked this guy's shot right against the
glass like he's done in the NBA a bunch of times.
And it was just incredible to see a 12 or 13 year old kid just
be able to move and jump the wayhe did.

(01:33:21):
Thank you very much. All right.
Sounds good. Thank you.
That does it for my chat with Joe Thomas.
The sit down was just one part of the full day with him in
Cleveland where we joined the NFL superstar at the Browns
facility for a training session and we joined him for a meal at
his BBQ restaurant to watch all that and more.

(01:33:44):
youtube.com/graham Bensinger. Remember to give us a rating and
review if you get a chance. Thanks again for listening.