Jon Hamm: Overcoming Loss to Become Hollywood’s Leading Man

Graham spends the day with Emmy award-winning actor Jon Hamm in Los Angeles to discuss his late-blooming acting career and childhood trials coping with death. The Mad Men star looks back on his transition from varsity athlete to theater lead, a bout with depression, the end of his most iconic acting role and more. We also hear from a mentor and a close family friend as they share early indicators of his success. Plus, Graham and Jon cap off the day with a trip to the batting cages. 

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
This week on the In Depth podcast, Emmy award-winning
actor Jon Hamm. There's a rhyme or reason
sometimes. Then sometimes you just get
blind lucky. The Saint Louis natives one of
Hollywood's leading men, but hismost iconic role remains the
enigmatic Don Draper in the hit show Mad Men.
How do you replicate the high ofbeing?

(00:22):
You're misleading man. I think there's a reason that so
few people have done it more than once.
In our 2018 interview, Ken talksabout his late break into show
business and the untimely death of his parents.
It's a terrible way to die and Iremember being a little kid in
no capacity to process it. But we begin our conversation
with the role sports played in the actor's life while growing

(00:44):
up in Missouri. So I wanted to start by taking
you back to your Saint Louis days.
John Burroughs School where you attended.
How much was sports part of yourearly life there?
Sports has been part of my life well before I, I entered into

(01:06):
middle school and, and high school and sort of varsity
sports. It's I was raised by a single
mom. So like, that was a great way to
just Get Me Out of the house and, you know, have me burn off
energy and do something. So I played soccer as a little
kid and baseball as soon as I could.
And, and then once I got to Burroughs, the, the, you know,
the more organized team sports were on the table too.

(01:31):
And you were. The thing in Burroughs is in 7th
and 8th grade, you are required to play every sport.
If you're good, bad or indifferent at it, you just have
to do it. That's what that's what the PE
portion of the of the day was. So you'd go through, you know,
we had to learn how to wrestle, you had to swim, you had to
basketball everything. And then by 9th, 9th grade,

(01:52):
you're, you're allowed to kind of pick and choose and it's
great. And I, I was a three sport
varsity athlete. I, I did swimming baseball and
football is a great way to, you know, bond with your classmates.
It's a great way to burn off energy and it's just a great way
to kind of, it's a, it's a, it was a wildly important part of

(02:14):
my kind of mental health, I think.
So how quickly did you realize kind of your sports well.
I don't, you know, I don't know.It was, it was another sort of
wonderful thing about, about Burroughs and, and the
experience there was that not only were you encouraged to try
all the sports, you were encouraged, you were basically
encouraged to try everything, performing arts, plastic arts,

(02:38):
all this stuff, you know, industrial design, like regular
core curriculum stuff also. And you, and you could see if
you had a talent OR, or a desireto kind of pursue something.
And I was, I took the football and baseball right away and I
was always a pretty good swimmer.
I just had never been on a swim team before.

(03:00):
I originally started playing basketball, I think in 9th
grade. And I realized like, that wasn't
my jam. It was a decent rebounder, but
not quite much else. But then we started a a swim
team. I was on the inaugural men's
varsity swim team in I think in 10th grade.
We were called the lemmings. How was it?
It was, we were fine. You know, we had a couple of
good guys. I was always a middling swimmer.

(03:22):
But it was, again, it was fun. Like it was something that I
enjoyed. And it I felt the same way once
I started doing theater. You know, when when Wayne came,
Wayne replaced one of our teachers, I think when I was a
junior, late in junior year, Wayne Solomon and then was
around for my senior year. And he was one of the first

(03:42):
people to really kind of encourage me that, that I had
some sort of talent in that in that arena.
But I can go, I could go down the list of of teachers at
Burroughs that that were profoundly important in my life.
How about the best game you everplayed in?
Of anything. But middle school?

(04:02):
High school, Like that period. Yeah.
And like, you know, we, we were pretty good.
I think B football, we were pretty good and we beat Country
Day that year and that's really all that mattered.
No, you didn't. Yes, we did.
We definitely did. We beat him on B team.
We never beat him at varsity, but we beat him on B team.
How close were you to being a Division One football player?

(04:23):
Not. Not close at all.
Oh, come on. I I mean there was.
No, I mean all but that. Was all you had to do was.
I've always kind of been no, no,no, no, no, I don't you're,
you're wildly misinformed. Division One now especially, but
even back then in the 80s, when I graduated, I was this size, I
was 6162195200 pounds. I would have had to put on 40

(04:46):
lbs of muscle to to crack that code and I hadn't.
And that that the kind of business approach or the
corporatization of, of sport. I didn't, I wasn't interested in
it. I didn't want to be a
professional athlete. The, the dedication is too much.
It it's not. It didn't, it didn't seem fun.

(05:08):
It seemed like work. And it was always fun for me to,
to play sports. It was always a pastime instead
of a a vocation. You were recruited by schools.
I was recruited by small schools.
In some Ivy League. Cornell, I think I got AI, got a
recruitment, but they weren't allowed to give scholarships and
I couldn't afford to pay privatetuition.

(05:31):
It was just not an option to to do that.
It was just too expensive. I couldn't.
I couldn't afford it. Did you consider playing small
school? Again, not really.
It would have. It would have taken too much of
my time. I wanted, I wanted college to be
at a time where I kind of figured out what I want to do
with my life. And I was pretty sure I didn't
want to be a professional athlete.
And I, I, I don't even know had I gone down that road, if I

(05:54):
would have had the the skills topay the bills, so to speak.
Your high school drama teacher of Wayne Solomon.
You know, I wondered how he tooka look at you, this * athlete,
and he decided he was interestedin you for acting.
He's done that time and time again.
And I think that's again, part of the philosophy of the school

(06:14):
is like you're not meant to stayin one lane.
You're meant to be. You must try it, try it all and
you know, and see if you like itAnd and if if you if you don't,
OK, you don't have to do it again.
Just do it once. But if you do, hey, look at
there, you found something out about yourself.

(06:36):
And I think that was the that was the thing.
That's why he wanted wanted us to to try, try out might like
it. What made you realize you wanted
to be an actor? Well, part of it was was getting
encouragement from people like Wayne and I had my, my, my
teacher at director in college at Mizzou was a guy called Jim

(06:57):
Miller. Legendary dude, great guy,
wonderful director. And he, the same way he, he kind
of said, you're good at this. You know, he wrote my letter of
recommendation when I, when I went back to Burrows to go try
to teach, he wrote my letter of recommendation to say, like,
this guy's knows what he's doing.

(07:18):
And so when I finally came out to LA in 1995, it was with the
at least kind of inkling that that more than one person more
than me thought I was good at this.
So it's post college. What made you decide to call the
headmaster of John Burrough School and propose an
internship? Well, I needed a job.

(07:40):
I needed to make some money. I had been waiting tables in, in
Saint Louis for about a year andthat was fine.
But I just, there was something about the profound impact that
the school had on me that I wanted to, to turn that around
and do something for another generation of kids.
And I wanted to and I and I wanted to give something back.

(08:04):
In that, that was your thinking that?
Absolutely. And that's what I pitched to
Keith Shahan, who was the headmaster at the time and and
he said, sounds great. We could we could use you, you
know, your family, we love you. Let's let's see where we can
slot you in. And so I had a great year.
I taught a lot of wonderful kids.

(08:24):
I learned a lot, I read a lot, Istill studied a lot and you
know, I was able to hang out with with the guy who I
consider, you know, my mentor inmany ways and a close personal
friend for a solid year and learn the do's and don'ts and
navigating, you know, dealing with 13 year olds up to 18 year
olds. Like there's wild difference in

(08:46):
sort of development mentally, especially emotionally though,
too, and kind of learning a lot about about that.
And again, this was in a pre cell phone, pre social media
era. I think there might have been
like Myspace or something, but it was pretty much, there was

(09:07):
pretty much none of that. I have no idea how to navigate
that world now or how they'd even how they even come close to
doing. And I went back to Burroughs
once a couple years ago and wentand saw Wayne and another friend
of mine, John Pearson, who teaches there as well.
And we were hanging out and bothin the in the classroom and

(09:30):
Pearson goes, look, look over your shoulder.
And I look over my shoulder door, which is made of glass.
And there's 300 kids out there and they've all got cell phones.
Yeah. And I'm like, oh, God, like.
And, you know, it's like walkingout into like.
And most, most of them didn't even know who I was, or they
just heard through the Grapevinethat somebody famous was here.

(09:50):
What do you remember from teaching actress Ellie Kemper I.
Just remember, she was very good.
I remember she she stood out. Even then.
Even then at I think she was 15 and you know, 5 foot nothing,
red hair, freckles and just she was just good.

(10:11):
She was, she was committed and loud and funny.
And you I could tell that she she was, she had talent, but I
had a couple students like that,that also like they went on, did
something else in their lives. One of one of them was, I think
it was a beautiful singer-songwriter, Leslie
Stevens. Stephanie Sanditz is one of my,
one of my students. She's a, a screenwriter now I

(10:32):
think is going to direct. But yeah, there's like we have
talented kids, really talented kids.
I, I actually, I ran into, I didn't run into him.
He sought me out 'cause I think Wayne gave him my e-mail.
Young man who graduated, I guesshe graduated, he's probably 2728
now. So he graduated a few years

(10:53):
back, but he was, he studied to be a aerospace engineer and at
25 or 26 or whatever, and he hada job, he worked for Raytheon or
Boeing or some someplace he wanted, he decided he wanted to
be an actor. So he, he emailed me out of the
blue said you don't know me, butI think you know my dad and

(11:15):
blah, blah, blah, Saint Louis, St.
Louis, Saint Louis. And I said, all right, come out,
come on, hang out, sit on my porch, pour a cup of coffee.
We'll talk about whatever. And I just saw him again.
This is about two years after weoriginally met.
How's it going? Oh, it's great.
I'm moving out here in August. I got engaged, like, blah, blah,
blah. OK man, good luck.

(11:36):
Paul Rudd, your high school girlfriend's older brother's
college roommate. How'd you meet?
Through my high school girlfriend's older brother, he
brought his roommate back for Thanksgiving or a long weekend
or whatever. They were roommates at KU, so it
wasn't that long a drive back from Lawrence to Saint Louis.
And yeah, I was in 88. We've known each other ever

(12:01):
since. And I understand, at least early
on, Sega Golf was. When I first came out to LAII
wanted to come out to LA 'cause I had an aunt that lived out
here with her husband and his two kids and I.
And I had my friend, my friends Paul and Preston and their

(12:21):
friend Beau. And I kind of, I knew Paul at
that time was going to acting school out here and Preston was
working for like a management consulting company or something
out here. And we, I came out from 1 spring
break, 92 I don't know what it was and got to meet all their
friends and, and it was, you know, it was a bunch of 20
somethings sitting around in a apartment in North Hollywood.

(12:43):
That you guys seemingly dubbed the IT.
Was horrible. It was gross, yeah.
It was just a really gross, old,you know, dilapidated North
Hollywood apartment. That's all you could afford, you
know, And everyone was unemployed.
And I was on spring break. So it was like, what?
What is there to do? Well, we're going to play some
video games. And so we just played Sega golf

(13:04):
non-stop, Sega football non-stop, just like you do when
you're 20, whatever, and you have nothing to do.
Wait until it gets dark when youcan go play pool or do something
fun, you know? So Paul Rudd says you're the
most competitive person he's ever met.
In what ways are you competitive?

(13:26):
I think anybody, I think that anybody that's successful is
competitive. I think you're competitive.
I think anybody that succeeds inwhat they in their chosen field
of of work. Yeah, but then Paul's
competitive, but you're the most, I mean, he's saying you're
the most competitive person he'sever met.

(13:47):
I don't. I don't necessarily think that's
true because Paul is very competitive.
But that's a everybody I talked to that's close to you.
That was something they brought up.
I, I do compete and I play to win and I love, love to win.
I don't like losing. I've gotten a lot more mellow in
my in my old age, to the point where I can, I can, I can let it

(14:12):
go, but. What used to happen?
Oh, I get furious. Like especially like when I was
a kid, just like it was just rage stroke out, you know, like
to lose my mind if I lost anything.
But that doesn't happen anymore.How?
How people react well. It's like you react when you see
a kid losing. You're like, what's wrong with

(14:33):
you? Calm down.
But I was never like a trash talker.
I never never did that stuff. I just, I just really liked
playing my hardest and inspiringother people to play hard, too.
It's the only, it was really theonly way I knew how to do that.
But yeah, like I, I remember when I was auditioning for Don

(14:54):
Draper that, you know, I was at the bottom of everybody's list.
Nobody really wanted to hire theguy from the Lifetime show, the
Division, you know, they wanted to hire ATV star a movie star,
somebody famous, because that's what you did back back then.
And I just remember thinking like, I'm not going to, I'm not
going to let this go. I'm not going to like self
sabotage or any of this. I'm going to try my hardest at

(15:16):
every audition. And there were like 8 of them.
And I'm going to succeed. I really, really want to
succeed. And I kind of just put it out
there and and it it worked. So everybody I spoke to close to
you said you were always popular, good looking,
exceptionally smart, center of attention for as long as they

(15:39):
can remember. I don't know.
Yeah, I've, I've always been my mom taught me.
I've only had my mom in my life for for 10 years, but she taught
me to be, to be proud of being exceptional, you know, kind of

(16:00):
the don't hide your light under bushel kind of a situation and
to, to try hard and to succeed and to and to be, to be a good
person, but also to be a be engaged.
That's, you know, I was always in like after school programs
and I was always in sports and Iwas always in stuff because it
was like you, you, you only get one shot at this.

(16:23):
Why wouldn't you want to take advantage of everything you can?
That's why she wanted me to go to Burrow.
She met a a friend of a friend of a friend, I guess, back in
the 70s, who she just found to be a fascinating person.
And she was like, why are you sointeresting?
And, and where did you grow up? Where did my mom came from?
A tiny town in southern Missouri, Saint Genevieve

(16:43):
population, you know, 1000. And so when she got out of
there, she was like, all right, this is, there's a big world out
there. And it seems a shame to not take
advantage of it. So I read everything I could put
my hands on and I had a a very healthy respect for school.
I paid attention in class mostlybecause I liked it.

(17:05):
I found it interesting and you know, I, I just remember
thinking like this, why we're here.
We're not here to like around and mess around and, and, and
also like not for nothing, I waspaying a lot of money here, but
like somebody was paying a lot of money.
Like that was told to me very early, like don't waste this.

(17:25):
Don't. But at that age, it's hard to be
aware of that and have been. You know, I was made aware of
it. Yeah.
I was very much made aware of itby people in my life.
And I think, you know, losing a parent at that age kind of
crystallizes a lot of things when, you know, the idea of the

(17:47):
impermanence of things is is you're made aware of very
probably too early, but very early on.
I want to ask you about your parents.
More coming up, but I was talking to your best friend
John, who believes that you've always had a chip on your
shoulder. He said that he thinks has
really influenced your determination.
What do you think? I, I, I think that's probably,

(18:10):
probably accurate. You know, I think that I think
John, John and I bonded because we, we were both kind of from
the, the wrong part of town. We're he was from deep West
county, kind of in the sticks and I was from north County and
we didn't really no one lived byus.

(18:31):
And he had like a 40 acre. Yeah, he lived on like a giant,
you know, thing with a pond. And I lived in an old, you know,
broken down house that that usedto be a fancy house.
And it it was weird. It was just that was there was
something about that that was like, OK, yeah, sure.
If you want to say it's a chip on your shoulder or just just

(18:52):
some sort of motivational aspect, you know, it's it's the
old story, like what makes Sammyrun, you know, like, I don't
know what, what it was, but it whatever it was, it, it worked.
How do you think not achieving success until later in life
impacted you? I, I honestly don't, I don't,
I've been asked this question a million times and I, and I don't

(19:16):
really know how to answer it in the sense of I only know one way
of how I've gotten to where I'vegotten.
I can't imagine what it would belike, especially now in a, in a
always on kind of always hyper connected, always over sharing
way what it would be like to have to manage success and a

(19:39):
career and everything at in my 20s.
I have, I know, I know I was notprepared for it.
I look at these kids who are winning awards and, and being
exceptional and I think like, I could barely like do my laundry
when I was in my 20s, like I just wasn't equipped.
But you know, I don't know. I, I think I'm obviously very

(20:02):
happy with with the success I'veachieved, but it's.
Appreciate it more. I think sure.
I think, I think, I think anybody that I think, I
guarantee you kids in their 20s appreciate their success.
It's just a different form of appreciation, you know what I
mean? Whether that's, you know, buying

(20:23):
cars and flying private planes or whatever.
I, I, I, the stuff never really did it for me.
It was the fact again, that, that I could, that I achieved
something and I could point to it.
You know, it's, it's nice to have like reminders and awards
and things like that. Those are great.
And I, and I do feel like I've earned them and I worked very

(20:43):
hard for them and all that stuff.
But it was the achievement itself was was what I was really
happy about, happiest about. I'm happiest about.
On the topic of success, Mad Mencreator Matthew Weiner said
success is lonely. Your struggle has ended, but you
don't trust it. Your thoughts?
That's that's pretty accurate. I think that, you know, it's,

(21:06):
that's another version of sayingbe careful what you wish for.
You might just get it. And I think that it takes a
level of maturity and real kind of self-confidence to trust that
your success is earned and to trust that your, your happiness
is earned. And I think you need a, a real

(21:27):
good kind of internal compass to, to figure that out.
And it, and it's hard. I mean, it's a lot of people
have said, you know, people that, that get famous go crazy
and it's, there's some version of that that's true.
It's because it's, it's not easy.
You know, the, the, the whole world's sort of looking at you.
You have to. It takes a, it takes a minute to

(21:51):
kind of process that and be OK with it.
So you just finished teaching a year of 8th grade drama at the
John Burroughs school. You make the decision with I
think like 150 bucks to your name to leave Saint Louis Dr.
your 86 Toyota Corolla Cross country to LA.

(22:12):
At that point, what are you hoping for?
How it'll work out? I remember being, I remember
being a a little like pretty terrified, but also excited.
I was 25 years old. I mean, you're still kind of
bulletproof. Then by this point, I'd, I'd

(22:34):
lost my dad when I was 20 and, and so I was kind of like, well,
it's kind of a clean slate. Like why not go to LA?
Why not go West, young man, see what's out there.
I had an aunt, I had family and I had several friends and I
thought, OK, I, I, I bet this ismanageable.

(22:55):
The very least. I knew I could wait tables
anywhere in the world. I'm like good enough bartender
and waiter speak a little Spanish like I'm fine.
So I, I knew I could, I could land on my feet and and figure
it out. But it's daunting.
I mean, the first week I was here, my aunt gave me what, what

(23:17):
was then called, well, it's still called, but what every car
in LA had to have in it was called the Thomas Guide, which
is a Yellow Pages size map of LA.
And I was like, you got to be kidding me.
You know, the map of Saint Louisyou could fit in your wallet?
Like, this thing is this big andit has 150 pages in it.

(23:39):
And obviously we have GPS, Google and that and whatever.
But like, this was analog. And she's like, here you go.
Everyone needs one. Good luck.
You're like, OK. And you had to kind of figure
out where you're going. I was like, I'm never going to
figure this out. Well, so you and your best
friend or you and your close friend Preston share a car.
And I think this car had holes in the roof, holes in the

(24:00):
floors. You eventually rehab it, the two
of you together. But tell about it being 1:00 AM.
You get pulled over and you haveto walk from downtown LA back
home to Silver. Lake we, yeah, we, I think I
still had a Missouri driver's license, which was a way to get
around kind of paying the California DMV the however much

(24:21):
money to blah, blah, blah. It's a it's a pain.
And Preston and I shared this car that was, it was a
convertible VW. But the fact that it was a
convertible was in name only because you would put the roof
up and the roof was just shredded.
And the driver's seat was held up by a piece of wood that

(24:43):
wedged in like that. And it had no gas gauge.
So we'd have to hit the odometerevery time we'd fill up the
tank. And right around 200 miles, it
was like, let's talk about filling up again.
So, yeah, we were driving home from something on the West side,
and we're cruising down 6th St. and down some hill.

(25:04):
And there's a stoplight at the bottom of the hill.
And I was driving. It's like turns yellow.
I'm like, God, we got this room.Cop right behind us pulls, pulls
me over. I pull over immediately.
All right, buddy, 'cause you ranthat light.
I said, did I? It was kind of yellow.
Like really? Really.
It's 2:00 in the morning. Just going home.
Get anything to drink now. We're fine.

(25:25):
License, registration. Give him my license.
Give him the registration. It was his Missouri license.
I said, yeah, that's where I live.
He goes, hold on. He runs.
He says, no, You have parking tickets here from, you know, two
years back. Oh God, here we go.
So he says this is an invalid license.
And I was like, no, it isn't. It's doesn't expire for two more

(25:45):
years. Like it's going to be invalid
about it's another state. Sorry.
I got to, I got to I got to write you a ticket and we have
to tow the car. Can't let you drive home.
I was like, what do you mean he he can't drive it?
And Preston at that point had had wrist surgery or something
and it was a manual transmission, so he literally
couldn't drive it. I was like, oh, can I shift for

(26:08):
like what? So we had to walk back, you
know, through a very dicey part of of LA to our to our to our
home and on the way helicopter. What is going on?
Like probably not a great sign. Go.

(26:29):
Can we just cut through? We live on the other side and
the there's a cop there. He goes no got to go around like
we just literally it's like 2 inthe morning.
Can we just walk? No, Why?
Somebody just got shot there. Well, OK, we'll we'll walk
around then. Sounds like a good good plan
walking around. Around this time you'd have, I
think, variety of jobs, one of which is you spoken about before

(26:51):
you were briefly on a sophomore porn show.
That was that was my my friend Kathy Kilburn, who was our
college stage manager. I had a group of friends that
lived out here that were from college and we were all sitting
around commiserating one night, just like none of us had jobs.
And we were just like, what are we, we're eating, you know, a

(27:11):
big bowl of pasta that we all chipped in to make or whatever.
And and that's probably 26 been out here a year.
I'm like, I need a job, man. I, I, I, I catering isn't
working out. I'm like, no, she goes, you can
have my job. I'm, I'm sick of it.
I can't, I can't deal with it anymore.
I was like, what's your job? She's like set dressing.
And I was like, I don't know what that is like.

(27:33):
I don't know how to do that. Like, isn't that a thing that
you need a skill set and somebody?
She goes, no, you don't. And it's certainly not for this.
I was like, I'm not in the union.
Like, is this you go no, no, no,no, no.
And she's got like a bucket of tools.
She goes, here, take this, show up at 7:00 in the morning.
It's this warehouse in downtown LA.
And I was like this, that's thisis the shadiest thing I've ever

(27:55):
seen in my life. And it was.
And I worked there for like a month.
Why was it depressing? Why do you think we're just
looking at like the most sort ofsad people in the world that are
doing this? It's just, it was just a bummer.
Like, you know, it's just like it was, it was, it was, it was
not the side of the industry that inspires.

(28:15):
How did not getting an acting job for three years impact your
confidence? You have to have a pretty thick
skin to to do anything in this business.
And you have to kind of understand that that there's
something that there's a rhyme or reason sometimes, sometimes
and then sometimes you just get blind lucky.

(28:36):
And I had had, you know, I had I'd never got I didn't I wasn't
working, but I was auditioning like a million auditions and I
kept getting called back. Like the idea of somebody saying
like, Oh, I like you might not be for this thing, but you know,
there's there's going to be another thing.
And so I had that kind of feedback from casting directors
and producers and directors and,and people like that.

(28:57):
And I was like, OK. And I auditioned for like a lot
of cool stuff, like Steven. Spielberg.
What do you remember from meeting with him?
Well, I, I didn't meet him. I met his the woman who directed
the film that he was producing, which called Deep Impact.
And I think it's job Jon Favreaudid.
But you know, you, you, you haveto find the, the, the positive

(29:19):
to pull away from, from whateverrejection you, you have or
you're, or you're just going to spiral.
But I was able to kind of for, for whatever reason able to kind
of understand that there was there's positives to be taken
from it. Explain how signing a contract
right before the final audition ended up messing with your head.

(29:40):
Oh. It's well, it's testing for a
pilot, especially for a network pilot.
Is, is a, is such a mind becausethey just you're, you're in a
space this size with all the other people that they're
considering hiring other than you.
And it's kind of like a feeding friend is go and you have to go
in and do your thing. And they, they, they make you

(30:02):
sign your contract before you goin because they basically when
they're making the decision on who to hire, they're this guy
cost this, this guy cost this, this guy cost this.
And that way they maintain all the leverage.
You can't say like, oh, they want me.
So guess what? I'm going to charge double the
rate. So it's all buttoned up before
you go in there and you think ifI get this job, I'll make more

(30:23):
money than I've ever seen in my life.
All my bills are going to be paid.
I'm going to be able to pay my back rent.
I'm going to be able to go Christmas shopping.
I'm going to be able to, you know, which is the last thing
you want to be thinking about before you go in and try to make
people believe that you're a alien doctor or something.
You know what I mean? So.
But it would creep into your head.

(30:44):
Oh of. Course, everybody will tell you.
Everybody will tell you that that auditioning is, is it's the
worst, Steve. I remember reading Steve
Martin's book and he was like, the day I, I was able to stop
auditioning was like the greatest day of my life as a
performer because it's just, it's, it's so unnatural and and

(31:04):
awful. And yet it's the only thing we
got. Why did you have a hard time
giving up waitering I. Didn't have a hard time.
It was, it was, it was I It's a great way to make money,
especially in LA and you meet a pretty cool, you get a cool
group of people. And if you work at a nice place
or a place that people are friendly and not horrible, you,

(31:27):
you can, you can have a pretty nice time and you work nights so
you don't have to, you have yourdays free to go to auditions or
whatever. Like it's, it's a pretty great
way to, there's a reason that most struggling actors are
waiters, because it's a it's a decent money and it's a decent
schedule. So there's a great quote from a
story on you describing the Mad Men character that you played,
and it was, quote, Don Draper, the illegitimate child of

(31:51):
Depression era losers who through preternatural ambition,
intuition and a freakish twist of fate, reinvents himself as a
Prince of Madison Ave. What appealed to you about the
role? It's a pretty great description
of a pretty great role. I hadn't seen that before, and I

(32:14):
certainly had never read a script like that before.
And I don't know, there was justa lot about it that to play.
You've got this guy who's on, onthe surface, this wildly
confident alpha, you know, kind of prototype.
But behind the scenes, it's, it's, it's all of, you know,

(32:36):
it's all a sham. And Matthew wrote an amazing
pilot script and he created a world, an amazing world for 92
episodes in ATV landscape in thein the early 2000s.
Obviously we're in a completely different time now with
streaming and this and that and every, every iteration of, of,
of television dramas being kind of exploded and reconstituted.

(33:01):
But back then it was like there were cop shows, there were
doctor shows and there were lawyer shows.
Sopranos kind of changed it, andthen admin changed it, and then
Breaking Bad changed it. You know, The Wire changed it,
but you know, it's it. That's what you had to deal with
or soap operas. Matthew Weiner, the Mad Men
creator, was previously a writeron The Sopranos.

(33:24):
The HBO passed on the show. AMC ends up getting it.
I think he knew from your first audition that you were who he
wanted, but you weren't the big name established actor at the
time, so you'd audition time after time after time before
finally getting it. After you get the part, you and
Weiner go for a walk afterwards.What does he tell you about the
role? Well, he told me basically he

(33:45):
goes, do you want to hear the back story?
And I was like, sure. And he goes into this whole
thing about how he's son of a prostitute and this and that.
Never knew his dad and his stepdad was awful.
And I was like, wow, like you write all this down or you just
like free associating, like what's going on?
And it was, you know, we got to,we got to kind of see that writ

(34:07):
large as the as the series progressed.
The first time you were in costume in your dressing room,
you're looking in the mirror, reciting your lines.
What do you see? I.
Remember going to set that day? We shot the pilot at Silver Cup
Studios in Brooklyn, NY and I remember, you know, you get to
set at 5:30 in the morning or whatever.

(34:28):
Weirdly, there was a dead body in the parking lot.
Someone had fallen out of a car off the bridge that went right
over the thing and then splattedin the parking lot.
So there was a one of those little weird cop tricycles and a
sheet and we were all like, what's going on in the parking
lot? Like somebody died.

(34:49):
Legitimately. Yeah, but I remember thinking
like, you know, putting all the putting all the gear on and
getting going through hair and makeup and whatever, and then
thinking to myself, well, OK, like you got the job now you
just have to do it. This is what you wanted to go do
it now. And the first thing we shot was
a three and a half page scene with me and John Slattery.

(35:12):
And we're yammering at each other and I have to go in and
take off my shirt, get another shirt out, put two Alka seltzer
in a thing, blah, blah, blah, tountie my tie, retie my tie and
miss a button because the end ofthe scene is you missed a
button. And we do this thing, first time
I do it. Nail it, Slatter.

(35:33):
He's like, you got a lot to do in this scene.
And he starts breaking my balls.I'm like, just just give me the
cues. I'll be all right.
So yeah, it was like, you got it, now go do it.
Didn't one of the times though, when you were looking in the
mirror reciting your lines, you said you saw your dad?
I mean, that's, you know, I looklike my dad.

(35:56):
I see my dad all the time. Yeah, you know, there's, there's
a lot of, there's a lot of my dad and and Don Draper.
The one of the stories I read, Ithink it was season 3, the
Draper characters on a Bender driving down the street and
throws his empty glass out the window.

(36:20):
Where did that? It's true story from my life.
My dad did that. I told Matt it.
I told Matt that story and he wrote it into the, wrote it into
the script different times. How would you use, you know,
memories of him to kind of influence how I.
I, I think there's a lot of actors that, that, that do that

(36:42):
kind of work. I'm not, I'm not that guy.
I don't like to mind my, my personal life necessarily for,
for that stuff. I, I really like to, I really
just like to be present in the scene.
And I find that when you're, when you're actively listening
and you're actively present and you're, and you're, and you're,
it's, it's like tennis. You, you, you're, you're, you're

(37:03):
knocking the ball back and forthacross the net.
And then when you're with a really good actor and a really
good tennis player, you play better.
I, I, I don't, I don't like to go like beat my head against the
wall for a week so I can be sad in the scene.
And it's interesting you say that because others close to
you've said like, you know, the role caused you to kind of like
dig up the soil of family stuff.Others said that like deepness

(37:28):
of the character weighed heavilyon you.
It's. Not it's not, it's not fun to
play kind of a sad person day inand day out for 9 years.
I mean, it's fun, but it's not, you know, it's not like doing a
light comedy, but it's, yeah, I mean, it's it's hard.
It's it's hard to be a lead on atelevision show, full stop.

(37:49):
Like the hours are terrible. You know you don't have much of
A life. Whether playing like a happy
character, sad character, because it is just a player, a
character you're playing. How does it?
What's the difference you've noticed and how I?
I think it's, it's mostly it's just more, it's just exhausting
when you're, when you're kind ofwhen you're the lead of

(38:10):
anything. You just, you're especially for
me playing Don Draper, you're inevery scene.
You don't have a day off. I didn't have a day off for like
3 weeks at one point because I was doing reshoots on the town
and I was shooting bridesmaids also.
And so I had like there was a 20, I worked 21 days in a row
and you know, you're going to bed at 2:00 in the morning,

(38:31):
you're waking up at six, you're going to bed at, you know,
midnight, you're waking up at 5.You get tired it, it's
exhausting. But you know, the the energizing
part of it is, is is when you'reon stage and they call action.
You mentioned your parents earlier.
How often do you think of them? Often, you know, I don't, I

(38:55):
probably wouldn't say that I sitand have like a session of
thinking of my parents, but I'm I will be reminded of of them
for various reasons in and out of day-to-day life.
You know, obviously miss them, wish they were able to kind of

(39:15):
be a part of all of this. But again, you know, I don't
that's my reality. Like that's, I don't have that.
So it's hard for me to say that where I would have been had I
had that that positive or negative.
What were the situations in which you wonder what they would
say to you? I don't know, just, I mean, I'm

(39:37):
47 years old. I'm sure they would have some
questions about how I'm doing, how I'm feeling.
I don't know, You know, I'm, I'mmy mom, my mother's only son
and, and one of three children that my father had.
So I'm sure there would be a lotof questions, but I had no idea
what you know. What were their ambitions for

(39:59):
you? I think obviously like any
parent, they want their kid to be happy.
I think like any parent, they want their kid to be safe and
successful and whatnot. There was a reason my mom.
Signed me up for all those afterschool classes and there was a
reason that she made sure I had a book in my hands at all times
and made sure I did my homework and made sure that I achieved.

(40:21):
And correct me if I'm wrong, butshe was the one that saved the
money for you to go. Well, yeah, I mean, it was her
kind of nest egg that when she passed away that was sort of
liquid to me. How much do you think like that
money and allowing you to go there impacted your life?
Immensely education is it's, it's the most important thing in

(40:43):
a kid's life. And I got, you know, the
Cadillac version of that. She had her colon removed, 2
feet of I think cancerous intestine ends up passing away
in her 30s. You were 10 at the time and I
believe you less remember the death and more remember the
impact it had on your family. In what ways?

(41:05):
I mean, losing a parent at a young age is, is I think the
only, the only worst thing to dois, is lose a child, which I, I
was watching my, my grandfather and grandmother lose their
child, their oldest child, you know, she's 35 years old.
It's too soon. And you know, it's a terrible

(41:25):
way to die. It just is.
And I remember being a little kid in no capacity to process
it. And there's no such thing as,
you know, or at least I wasn't exposed to, you know, a
therapist or anybody to talk about it.
So I was just kind of left to myown devices.
And, you know, it's, it's, it's a, a friend of mine lost his

(41:47):
wife recently. And he describes his, it's not
a, it's not a vacuum, it's not avoid.
It's a blast crater. What?
Do you mean? It's, it's a, it's a crater and
your life just explodes and you,you have to kind of manage it.
But there's, there's not only the void, but there's the
collateral damage of it. And again, when you're a kid,
you just don't have the capacityto deal.

(42:07):
You don't know what it's like tomourn or grieve or go through
the, you know, the famous sort of processes because you're a
kid. You think everything lives
forever? Your dad was a big shot in Saint
Louis running the family business for a while.
Also big guy. I think he was like 6, three,
£300. His first, first wife passed

(42:32):
away. He had, you know, was left with
two daughters out of that. Then his next wife, your mom
divorced him, ends up passing away and he's left with you.
How did he handle all of that? Again, I never really got to
have those kind of adult conversations and so I don't

(42:53):
really know, but just knowing how difficult that is in a in a
vacuum, I'm sure it was devastating for.
Him. You said you felt he was
unfulfilled in many ways. Again, I, what do I know?

(43:14):
You know, I, I've really, I can,I can, I can postulate and kind
of throw out theories and thingsI'll never know.
That's the thing about death. It's permanent.
At the time of why was it so tough for you living with your
dad and then his mom, your grandma?

(43:37):
Well, three generations under one roof is tricky, right?
You know, I'm like a 80s kid, like, well, all I wanted to do
is play Atari and that my, that my grandma was like, what is
this Atari thing? Like go outside and rake the
leaves or something. It's, it's a, it's a, it's, it

(44:00):
was a very strange existence. And again, another reason why
having the outlet of going to school, going to Burroughs,
which would school would start at 8:00 and we need to be at
school till at least four. And if you had athletics or
theatre or whatever, you'd be there till 6:30.
So it's just great to be out of the house and in in that

(44:22):
environment. And I heard she was a tough
lady. She was yeah, you know, born in
19 O 4 like lived through the Depression, like broke her back
when she was 16 falling off a trolley or something.
You know, you're just like Jesuslike it's it's I've learned
throughout my life to be very tonot be judgmental about people
until you really know what they've been through.

(44:44):
And when you and when I realize like my grandmother's both
sides, my grandfather been through you know, like you, you
deserved you've earned having a a harder outlook on life,
probably. How well do you recall watching
The Field of Dreams when you were at University of Texas?

(45:05):
Are you referring to a specific story?
When I called my sister, Yeah. Yeah, it's it was a great, it
was a weird, great thing. I remember watching.
I love that movie, first of all,because I love baseball.
And Dad was, I think he was, he wasn't dead yet.
He was sick and it was on TV, whatever is on network TV.

(45:30):
And I just remember watching it and kind of really being moved
by it and going to pick up the phone to call my sister.
And she was on the phone. That weird thing that used to
happen when people talked on landlines where sometimes you'd
pick up the phone before it rangand oh, hi, hello.

(45:50):
And that was, I was like, that is weird.
Like I, you know, it's a very strange thing.
So you're at University of Texasand Austin, your grandma passes
away while you're there, short time after your dad ends up
passing away. And you said that that kind of

(46:11):
changed everything. And there was this profound
sense of being alone. I mean, I had friends and I had,
you know, sisters and I had aunts and uncles, but I didn't
have mom and dad And I, I give thanks, you know, to the people
in my life who who helped me reorient during that time, which

(46:32):
were these really close family friends, the Simmonses, the
Clarks and the Wilsons. And they each individually met
with me and sort of sat me down and said, like, look, you're
going through a hard time. It's OK.
You know what? You you're, you're going to be
OK. You just got to kind of get back
on your feet and we'll get you going again.
And, and it was profoundly helpful.

(46:52):
And that's the time at which I've got into, got into therapy
for the first time. My sister was like, you need to
see somebody. What did what did she say that
got you to finally go? Well, she's like you're, you're,
you know, you're sleeping till 4:00 in the afternoon like
something's not right. You need to see somebody.

(47:15):
You're, you're not well. And you know, for me it was
like, I'll be fine. You know, it's like stiff upper
lip kind of Midwestern. Like, don't worry about it.
I'm fine. He's not fine.
This is not fine. Your.
Friend said even when they knew you were struggling, you always
had the brave face. Well, yeah, I mean, that's, I
think that's what we're kind of taught as, as whatever, as

(47:38):
polite Midwesterners. It's like, don't worry about it.
Don't want to overshare, fine. But you know, seeing, seeing
the, the therapist at that time was profoundly helpful because
it is, it does what it does. It gives you another perspective
on something that you can't quite figure out.
And she was able to really kind of again, reorient my, my kind

(48:04):
of way of thinking. And she put me on a medication
that was, that changed my brain chemistry enough to where, OK,
I'm, I'm feeling a little better.
I can, I can get up and go to work.
I can get up and go to school. I can do my work on time.
I can, I can, I can self motivate again.
I mean, sometimes that's what you need.
And it's like it's, it's got themost interesting stigma.

(48:25):
But you know, people think if you break your ankle, you're not
expected to just walk it off. But if your brain chemistry is
somehow a little a little tweaked, you're somehow expected
to just deal with it. It's like, well, but there's a
medicine that fixes it. And to go back to what you said
about the three families that were so helpful, you made the

(48:47):
point that it wasn't the therapyas much as the people in your
life that didn't have to be kindbut were.
Yeah, I mean, it's, it's it's a big reason why I I take meetings
with kids that come out here andsay try to tell them, give them
a what's up with moving to LA? It's a big reason why I wanted

(49:10):
to go back and teach. It's a big reason why I try to
lead with kindness because I'm aI'm a perfect example of what
happens when you when you do that to somebody that you don't
need need to. It's easy to get fall down,
especially in this industry. It's easy to fall down some kind
of narcissistic spiral where you're the most important thing
in the world and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

(49:33):
But it's wildly helpful when youwhen you remember that you, you
can, you can pay it forward in, in many ways.
You said Mad Men ending was likemourning and you go through all
the stages of grief. How did that come out in you?
You know, you're losing something that you spent in my
case, 9 the better part of a decade with right.

(49:55):
So you're you're you're going from kind of one reality to a
completely different one. And it was it's hard.
You know, it's, it's, it's, it's, you know, I think probably
still the, the one thing that I'm really known for, I've got
other things that I'm very proudof in my career, but it's that

(50:15):
there's, there's, there's one that's pretty outsized and it's
a challenge. You know, it's you, you, you,
you have to kind of, like I said, reorient your existence
to, to figure out, OK, what am Igoing to do with my days?
Like it used to be from March toAugust, I I knew what I was
doing and, and and then it attendant with that comes, you

(50:41):
know, do people think I'm any good than anything else?
Do people want to see me doing anything else?
Do am I, you know, am I 1 trick pony?
All this other stuff comes into.Play.
And that's what you're thinking.Well, you're just because
you're, you're unemployed for the first time in nine years.
It sucks. It sucks being employed.
And really, you even felt that then, even though, I mean,
you're deservedly almost an employee just, you know, killed

(51:06):
it at this show. For it's.
It's that kind of. Thing never goes away.
It's and it but it. But when you're, I guess old
enough or or mature enough, you can, you can understand that
that's a thought that you have and then understand that that's
ridiculous and you'll be fine. To to what extent did the show
ending impact you more than you thought it would?

(51:28):
And, and that way, I think really, and I think it was it's,
it's just, it's just I've I've again, and I'd never been on
anything that long. Most of us hadn't.
So I think you know, you, you, it was, it was just surprising
and it was, it was challenging, you know, just, and, and and

(51:49):
then you, you're trying to navigate, you know, what other
people are thinking and all this.
It's just crazy. It's just a crazy time.
How do you replicate the high ofbeing TV's leading man?
You don't. I don't I think there's a reason
that so few people have done it more than once, but it but it's

(52:13):
also like it's an important lesson to like to let that be
its thing. Let that be what that was this
period of time from 2006 to 2015.
That was a hell of a run. And don't chase after that
again. Go have another experience go
look for something else to do. The reason I think that Mad Men

(52:35):
was so successful was that nobody thought it would be
successful. You know, you look at what's
popular on TV now and they're kind of the outliers.
The things that this sure bets the people are all this is going
to be amazing. People are like seeing it see
Nick, I do that before. So I got, I get a chance to, to
work on things now that are exciting and, and fun and funny

(53:00):
and I get to work with the people who I've, who have
established relationships over the, you know, the last 15 years
of my career. And what was that process like
for you? Figuring out what to do
professionally post. You know, I don't really know.
I I certainly didn't have any kind of like overarching
strategy or or. But really like.
No, again, it's not really how I've.

(53:21):
Was that intentional? Yeah, but it's also, it's,
again, it's just the only way I really know how to do stuff.
I'm not a big master planner. That's not how my brain works,
really. I'm more of just like, OK, well,
let's see where this goes. Let's see where this trail
leads. And again, I think especially in

(53:45):
this, it's like holding on to sand.
You know, the tighter you, the tighter you grip it, the less
you have and, and I've been fortunate enough to where that a
lot of the people that I've worked with have really wanted
to work with me again. And that's really nice.
So I just been taking it as it comes.

(54:08):
How do you feel about being the name carrying a film?
It's interesting. I, I, I haven't had it that many
times. It certainly gives you a deep,
deep understanding and respect for the people that do it all
the time, whether it's Ben Affleck or Matt Damon or George
Clooney or, you know, whoever itis, Jennifer Lawrence, you know,

(54:32):
you think like, oh, man, like itcan be super stressful, but.
In in what way? Well, it's interesting.
It can be stressful if you let it, I guess is the is the right
way to look at it and the peoplethat really think like, oh, the

(54:53):
movie's going to succeed or, or fail because of you.
I think most of the guys that that are in that position don't
think that they're like him. I'm here, I'm doing my job.
The movie succeeds or fails for a million different reasons and
just on me and you know, my job when I whenever I've been the
lead of a film, it's like my jobis to show up on set every day

(55:15):
ready to go prepared and do and give 100% and, and be the best I
can be. I can't control the marketing.
I can't control whatever comes out the same weekend.
You know, I picked the script because I liked it.
And whether that's, you know, $1,000,000 arm or baby Driver,

(55:36):
like I those I picked those scripts because I liked them.
And you know, my job is again, like, I just, I show up, I do my
job and it turns out people likeworking with me.
You said you haven't had the lead that many times in films,
but some of that's been by choice too, right?
I haven't been, you know, offered giant leads in many

(55:57):
things, which is fine. I have turned, turned down a few
of them because I didn't like it.
Right. And, and I'm allowed to do that.
But yeah. And sometimes it's fun to just
be the guy who walks in for two scenes and makes everybody laugh
and then leaves. You know, you don't have to be
on location for six months. You go for go in for a week and

(56:17):
bail out. Even somebody like you who's had
as much success in acting as you've now had, how challenging
is it to get the parts you trulywant?
It's always challenging and I think anybody will tell you that
there's always somebody else. There's always a younger,
prettier, taller version of you.If you have a healthy kind of

(56:39):
perspective on all of it and andrealize that it's a pretty long
game, you'll be all right. Yeah.
I believe you've mentioned you're interested in starting to
do some of these self generatingprojects like Reese Witherspoon
or Brad Pitt does. How do you go about doing that?
At a certain point in your life,you acquire people in your

(56:59):
circle who have different skill sets and are differently
talented at things. So you'll meet a director who
you really like and you think, oh man, let's let's go grab a
camera and just shoot something weird or, or you'll meet a
writer who you really like who'slike, I'm thinking about writing
this thing Bo Bo and hey, let's sit around a table and hash it
out. Let's So I think especially with
with someone like Reese who's, who's always been very kind of

(57:24):
focused and driven. I think that, you know, it's,
it's an amazing time right now because there's so many outlets.
You can, you can get something, write it up, film it, put it on
YouTube for, you know, change of$100 bill.
And if, if somebody sees it, theright person sees it and the
right people like it, you could can be on HBO next year.

(57:44):
You're just like, oh, we're the real crew and a real thing and a
real budget. And it's, it's a good time to be
kind of a, a content creator. Horrible term.
But the downside of it is that there's just a lot of noise and
there's a lot of stuff out therethat's, you know, ephemeral and

(58:06):
meaningless. And the trick is to kind of
distill. That's going to be the next, I
think focus of where media is looking is how to distill all of
that into, you know, it used to be, it was your, it was your
Facebook feed. But now that's kind of that
algorithm got a little skewed and realized that people, people

(58:28):
were taking advantage of that. So now it's like, what is it
your Netflix queue? But then you got to do Hulu also
and Amazon and this and that andthe other, and you go, who?
How can you keep up with it? Do you have plans to do some of
the self generating? I I don't have any plans right
now. I don't have anything in the
pipeline I have. But just desire.
Yeah, yeah, sure. It's, it's part of it is, you

(58:49):
know, back in the old days, controlling your own destiny as
an actor was like an impossibility.
You're, you're beholden to the studios back in the old days and
you're beholden to producers or directors in the, in the 80s and
90s. And, and you know, it was, it
was really challenging. And now you, you can, you can

(59:11):
kind of just say, all right, well, I'm going to produce this.
I know. And part of that is just being
around long enough and knowing how all that stuff works,
understanding like, OK, I have askill set that I can do.
And if you have the desire to match that, then you can you can
pretty much do it. So I know you said before you
aren't interested in superhero movies, but what's the site here

(59:32):
that there are at least rumors that you're interested in
Batman? I've had rumors about that since
probably since season 1 of Mad Men.
I, I I've never, I've never had a conversation with anybody
about it, literally. And I've sat in the rooms with
all these guys, never been offered anything.
I think the Internet wants what it wants.
I can control the Internet like it depends.

(59:55):
On what? Script.
What story is I'm a huge comic book fan, always have been.
I read comic books since I was, you know, 9 or younger and I'm
pretty knowledgeable about a lotof them.
And I and I like the genre and Ilike it when they're done well.

(01:00:17):
I saw a Black Panther. I was like this movie's great
friend of mine. There's a showrunner on Legion
which I just watched last night.It's great.
So there's a lot of, there's a lot of interesting things out
there, but it depends on the story, you know, it all comes
down to the story. But could you see playing it?

(01:00:39):
Sure. I mean, sure, I'd probably fit
the suit. You know, I have to have to work
out a lot since I don't love, but you know, it's sure there's
a, there's a, I'm sure there's a, there's an interesting
version of that being out there.And, and if they wanted to tap
me on the shoulder and ask me todo it, why, why not?

(01:01:00):
But I mean, you know, a lot of people have to sign off on that.
Obviously, it's not just the Internet. $1,000,000 ARM What
attracted you to the role? I love baseball, you know that.
I loved the story. I loved that it was a true story
and I really liked the idea of making a movie that had a happy

(01:01:21):
ending and heart and was a storythat you could take your, that I
could take my, you know, nieces and nephews to.
And I remember when, when, when we got the chance to make that
movie, I just thought like, oh, this is like a lovely story.
And the fact that it's true really, really resonated that
this guy really kind of put it all in the line and he wanted to
like see what what he could do with, with bringing bringing

(01:01:45):
this part of our culture to another culture.
I think that that's that's a nice it's just a nice message
and I and I was happy to be it was a nice palate cleanser after
playing Don Draper play this guywho's, you know, got a little
bit of the huckster in him, but is also, you know, learns learns
a lesson that you know, these it's important to be, you know,

(01:02:12):
a family. There was there was some
something nice about that. Describe what it was like
shooting in India. It's, it's, it's madness.
There's so, so many people. The first day we shot, it was
like shooting on the street. It's like shooting in Times
Square on New Year's Eve. You just, there's just, it's
just all people and cows and cars and noise and smells and

(01:02:38):
everything. And you're thinking like, all
right, well, we got to do this thing, so should we.
Here we go. Let's go both feet.
Let's just go. What most sticks out to you from
the actual experience of filmingthere?
It's just sensory overload. You, you're all five of your
senses are just constantly overloaded.

(01:03:00):
And it's, I mean, it's once you kind of get your head around it
and get used to it, which takes about a week or 10 days, it's
really lovely. And again, like, I'm a, I'm a
big believer in just sort of like, well, this is what it is.
You can't go and shoot a movie in India and expect it to be

(01:03:22):
like the back lot at Warner Brothers.
Why would you? So let's, let's really, you
know, sink into it. What were you, what were you
able to do outside of filming? Nothing.
I was shooting, shooting every day.
I got to see like a lot of things in vans on the way to
set, which was a real shame because I, I really got into, I

(01:03:45):
feel like every, every night when I would get back to my
hotel room, I would be on Wikipedia looking up something
that I had learned that day about Hinduism or something, or
Zoroastrianism or, or, you know,the, the, the makeup of how did
Mumbai get to be Mumbai? Like what did the Dutch have to

(01:04:07):
do with like this? What is this, you know, just
learning It was there was something to learn every day and
that was exciting. I wish I had more time to to
have actually gone and like seenit and learned about it instead
of just going from here from setto hotel to set to hotel.
So what do you remember from hosting the ESPYs?
It was fun. It was fun.
I remember there was a joke in the monologue that was meant to

(01:04:30):
be set up by a video clip. And for whatever reason, the
clip didn't play and the joke actually worked better and got a
big laugh. And I was like, OK, well, this
will be this is going to go OK. But it's all, you know, it's,
it's so fun to be in in that room because you get a chance

(01:04:50):
to, you know, sports in Hollywood have a weird kind of
overlap, but it's professional athletes do such amazing stuff.
And you just like, wow, like you're really doing it.
This is great. And to be able to celebrate,
that's fantastic. Fantastic.
And I was pleased that they asked me too.
I was like, OK, sure. You have a favorite skit from

(01:05:12):
the time hosting. Oh, I don't, I don't even
remember the sketches we did when I hosted the SPS.
But no, it was, it was just, it's, it was, I'm there as a, as
a host, I'm there as a facilitator and, and, and make
sure everybody gets their awardson time.
What's the preparation involved for a gig like that?
Hosting that, it's not much. I mean, you have writers that

(01:05:36):
write the monologue you have, you know, you're contributing
obviously to and telling them what, what you like and what,
what, what, what you'd rather door not do.
But hosting is hosting's great. It's, it's, it's a good reminder
to just remember that it's not about you.

(01:05:57):
Like whatever awards show you'rehosting, the host, it's not the
host isn't getting any awards. It's like your job is to make
sure that the actual people who deserve to be celebrated are.
When it comes to film roles, what's your process involved
with preparing for? Ideally, like by the time you're
on set, you're, you're, you're ready to go and you've had those
conversations and you've thoughtabout your things and you've,

(01:06:20):
you so rarely get a chance to really rehearse anything.
But you, you know, everyone's different.
You know, mine is mine is a little more internal.
And again, like I said, I just like to be really present.
I think that's that's the only thing I can really do.

(01:06:40):
Internal in what way? Just like think about it by
myself, I don't like to talk to people about it and.
And what will you think about? The part, the role of this, the
character, the how it works, howwe're going to play the scene,
what we think, you know, the logistics of, of the work.

(01:07:01):
It's and, and other people like to, you know, talk about it and,
and really kind of hash it out. And so, OK, what do you think?
Can I do? What do you, I, I don't mind
doing that. I don't mind being the other
person. I just don't prefer doing that.
What's the character you played recently and what was that kind
of internal process you had of kind of working through?
Well, I had to go do a film recently where we're shooting

(01:07:23):
Morocco. You're already kind of a little
left of center because you're, you're in a foreign country and
they're speaking 3 languages on set and you not really sure who
to ask and how to ask and what the, what the, what the custom
is or whatever. And so, you know, again, by that

(01:07:45):
point it's the director and I had had tons of conversations
and, and everybody was on the same page.
But you, you just got to, you just got to be prepared,
prepared to like face what the day is going to be.
And that that means you got to be, you know, you got to know
your lines and you got to, I hadto speak Arabic in that movie,

(01:08:05):
which is not easy. You just constantly, constantly
going over it and going over it and going over it and then and,
and then trying to make it disappear, you know, trying to
make it seem as natural as possible.
It's like learning to dribble with your left hand.
You know, you don't, you don't get good at it by thinking about
doing it. Do it some some actors are are

(01:08:29):
born with a preternatural ability to just walk right into
something and be awesome. I I, I think most actors take.
It takes time to get to get good.
What makes you realize when you're playing a role well?
I it's a good question. I feel like there's there's

(01:08:53):
something that just settles where you just again, like it
just feels like it's not happening.
Feels like it's you're not acting, you're just, you're just
there and and you're you're justhyper present and it's fun.
Becomes fun. In the remaining moments,

(01:09:16):
comedy. What do you like about comedy?
I've liked it since as early as I can remember.
I just just love listening to comedy records and the 80s
comedy cassette tapes and kind of digging out, finding little
weird moments. Saturday Night Live was a big

(01:09:37):
influence in my life because it was live.
Television was before the era ofthe VCR.
If you didn't see it, you missedit.
And it was something that it was.
It was vital. There was something new and
exciting and cool about it, which is the best part of
comedy. It's like somebody coming at

(01:09:57):
something from a place that you haven't thought of making you
laugh about it or just think about it.
I mean a lot of comics are are you know, they're the main point
is to get get a laugh, but it's also to kind of make you think,
you know, think that's what I loved about it.

(01:10:20):
That's why the guys that I grew up on, whether it's George
Carlin, you know, Carlin's stuffwas wildly heady, but just,
yeah, Monty Python, like all theSNL guys.
And then, and then as, as I kindof moved through my existence
and moved out here, you know, the scene was Sarah Silverman

(01:10:45):
and Patton Oswalt and Paul F Tompkins and Zach Galifianakis
and Tenacious D and all these guys that were really kind of
blowing up at the same time. And and all just wildly smart
and funny, which is something I respected.
So the first time you're offeredto host Saturday Night Live,

(01:11:06):
what was it like turning it down?
Yeah, I couldn't do it. We had I had planned a a trip
that I couldn't unplan. How do you handle that one?
I said to my agent at the time, I was like, you have to be very
delicate with this and say that it's I'm not turning it down
because I don't want to do it. I wildly want to do it, but I

(01:11:27):
can't. I just, I don't know how you
make that argument, but please do.
And effectively they did and, and it was nice because
obviously Mad Men very cyclical and there's another opportunity,
but I've, I've, I got to host itthree times in two years.
I mean, that's and it's so fun. Oh, it's so fun.

(01:11:51):
I was just there a little bit ago.
I saw my friend Bill Hader host.It was, it was nice.
It was really nice. That first experience though
hosting. Describe what you remember.
It's a roller coaster. What I realized was it's a
roller coaster, and it's a roller coaster that's pretty

(01:12:12):
well designed. It's not going to fly off the
tracks unless you do something ridiculous to make it fly off
the tracks. And so your job is to hang on,
hold on and enjoy the ride and it's thrilling.
Your stomach drops out and you go upside down and you go around
the corner and your hair falls. And so it's crazy fun.

(01:12:34):
But I realized that literally like 5 seconds before they
pushed me through the door, I was like, oh right, that's a
roller coaster. Just ride the roller coaster man
and enjoy it. Cue cards right there push you
and pull you and stick you on your mark.
You know, the rest of it is justjust enjoy it.
How many Saturday Night Live sketches can you recite

(01:12:56):
verbatim? Probably not as many as I used
to, but I, I do have a pretty good working knowledge of, of
the history of that show. And there's a really cool thing
that you can do when you're there.
You they have like a database basically in the kind of in
house network and computer that you can pull up any sketch from
anything from the past 40 years.Basically they have it all

(01:13:17):
digitized somehow. And I think it's mostly so they
can make sure they're not cannibalizing their own things
or like we we did that in 1984, like, but also it's like to see,
you know, I think how to do things who did what would it be
fun to kind of revisit, you know, things like that.
It's pretty cool. What do you think Lorne Michaels

(01:13:40):
likes about you? Well, Lauren is famously kind of
inscrutable, so I don't know. But you guys are friends.
I. Wouldn't hazard a guess.
Yes. I think we're friendly.
Yeah, absolutely. I I do.
I do hear from him, you know, ifhe's visiting in town.
Hey, you want to have dinner? And that's always a nice message

(01:14:00):
to get. And it's always a fun dinner.
You're sitting with a person who's a legend in his own time.
I mean, who doesn't want to sit at that table?
And I've been fortunate enough to have dinner with Lorne, Mike
Nichols, Marty Short, like people like that.
And the idea of I just love listening, you know, listening

(01:14:25):
to them and, and I mean kidding me like that's, that's the best.
What impresses you about Lorne? His longevity, I mean, comedy
is, is a young man's game, and Lauren's been at the top of it
for 40 years. Longer even.

(01:14:47):
He's just been doing SNL for 40 years.
It's impressive to have the charisma, intelligence, whatever
you want to say, but the abilityto stick around that long and to
be relevant that long, it's impressive.

(01:15:10):
How are the nerves? Well, again, like when you, when
you realize that when you look at it that way, that they
evaporate, you're just like again, in, in that, in that
world you are, it's a cocoon andyou are well, well taken care
of. And a friend of mine had told
me, like, here's my, I said, I need one piece of advice.

(01:15:30):
What's, what's one piece of advice?
He goes be their guest. Act like their guest.
You're their guest host. Be their guest.
Behave like a guest in someone else's house.
Is there a single moment from the three times hosting that
most sticks out to you? Not not one single moment other
than kind of no, I mean, it's just that I, I wouldn't change a

(01:15:53):
thing. I, I loved it all.
It's you know, that that the epiphany moment of kind of
standing behind in the back of eight H and kind of getting
pushed out through the thing that was like that was that was
exciting. That's a rush.
Thank you very much. Cheers, bud.

(01:16:14):
Thanks for listening to my chat with actor Jon Hamm.
To see clips of our interview, plus a friendly competition in
the batting cages, go to youtube.com/graham Bensinger.
And before you go, please leave us a rating and review to share
your thoughts on the podcast. We welcome all feedback,
positive or negative. Thanks again for listening.