Misty Copeland - Trailblazing Ballet Dancer

Graham sits down with dancer, Misty Copeland to discuss her history-making performance as the Firebird, inequality within the ballet community and her newest role as a first-time mom.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
This week on the In Depth with Graham Bensinger podcast,
trailblazing ballet dancer MistyCopeland.
All these young, young kids in general, but black and brown
kids looking at you and they should be able to tell that
you're black when you're on stage.
Copeland's stories one of the most inspiring we've ever
featured, her incredible will toachieve what seemed impossible,

(00:22):
matched only by her natural talent and unique style.
We met at a Boys and Girls Club in the Bronx, an organization
that played a pivotal role in Misty's young life and now hosts
your foundation's Be Bold After School Dance program.
It's, you know, social justice through dance.
Copeland made history when she became the first African

(00:43):
American woman to be promoted toprincipal dancer at the
prestigious American Ballet Theatre.
The applause stopped the show. Yeah, I mean, it was so much
bigger than me. Copeland's 5 foot 2 muscular
physique had already made her anoutlier.
It was like, no matter what I doon the stage, I'm not going to
win everyone over. But her singularity and

(01:04):
undeniable skill opened up unexpected doors from touring
with Prince. I wasn't just a backup dancer
for him, you know, it was, it was a collaborative effort.
To endorsement deals and even the silver screen.
And I'm doing all of this to benefit, you know, to bring more
people to ballet, to diversify it.

(01:26):
Her fierce commitment to ballet provided stability through a
chaotic childhood. And that was at our lowest
point, you know, on food stamps,not having a home.
And a platform. To promote equality and
diversity in classical dance. It should be a collective
conversation that not just blackdancers are having, but dancers,

(01:48):
period. All that's coming up right here
on the In Depth podcast. So I actually wanted to start by
talking about dating, life and husband I, I want to go back to
when you're out somewhere and somebody comes up and says actor

(02:14):
Taye Diggs wants you to come to his table.
Yeah, no, this is a very fun wayto start this interview.
Gosh, I was 21 living, I think any like young adolescent, like,
you know, young adult dream, youknow, dancing for abt

(02:34):
experiencing like being young inthis lively, diverse city.
And, and I love to go out and, and be, you know, around people
and, and kind of not the atmosphere I'm used to being in
day in and day out at ABT, whichreally in reality, you know, I
was, I'm was the only black woman at ABT for the first

(02:56):
decade of my career. So the majority of my time, you
know, 8 hours a day I've spent, you know, between in this
building with only white people.So like any chance I'm like, you
know, could be out and and on the town so well.
And that's what that's what I read too.
It seemed like because of the commitment to your craft, it
really was kind of at the expense of social life, right?

(03:20):
You were telling a story in the book about how, as of like
senior year in high school, you hadn't had your first kiss yet.
You know, I was, I was really, really underdeveloped, I think
in my maturity and just life experiences and also just a this
fear of like going down the wrong path, you know, coming
from the circumstances I grew upin, it was like, I'm going to

(03:43):
stay on the straight and narrow.And I think I reacted with the
opposite of, of a lot of how a lot of children might respond in
that situation. I just kind of was like even
more introverted and, and afraidof, of ending up like a lot of
people I saw around me. So getting to New York City, it
was this sense of freedom in a different way for the first

(04:08):
time. Like I was going out and like
meeting artists and people from different walks of life.
And and then it was actually Taye Diggs who walked up to me
and asked if I would come to histable because his cousin was
interested. And I was like, I didn't know
who he was at the time. And you're thinking what?
And I was like, who's your cousin?

(04:30):
And he pointed to this guy that I had actually been eyeing all
night. I was like, I'll come right over
and the rest is history. I mean, it's it's pretty amazing
that he was my first boyfriend. There was a a connection.
I think, you know, both of us being from California, like West
Coast being biracial. He listened really well and had
like a different kind of like response and reaction to hearing

(04:54):
that I was a classical dancer. His mother was on the board of
directors of San Francisco Ballet.
When he was younger, he actuallydanced in San Francisco Ballet.
He's a Nutcracker when he was a kid.
I mean, he has no dance experience, even though he
teases me all the time. And it's like, remember when I
learned at San Francisco Ballet?I'm like, you did an audition to
be like a mouse. Not quite the training of a

(05:15):
classical dancer, but there was just a different bond and
understanding and respect that Idon't think I'd ever
experienced. He said the first time he saw
you that he was going to, like, marry you.
What made you realize he was theone?
I think it was, it was the consistency.
You know, he, he left the following morning after we met

(05:37):
at this nightclub to go back to Atlanta where he was living.
He was in law school there. And it was his commitment to
staying connected. Like talking on the phone.
We'd spend hours talking on the phone.
And it was just like a real genuine care.
You know, the conversations we were having were, you know,
about our careers and, and aboutthings of substance.

(05:59):
And I think it was just timing, too.
I was. I was ready.
You gave birth to your first child, a son, April of 22.
What? What's that experience been like
for you? It's it's eye opening, you know,
it makes me look at relationships in my life so
different. How so?

(06:22):
It's there's like, you know, first of all, just looking at my
own mother and looking at my, myparents, looking at my husband's
mother and, and, and you know, the way that we were raised and
just like, how did they do it? You know, we, we are in a loving
marriage and are very supportiveof one another.

(06:43):
And it's hard. And you have the means.
And and we have the means and, you know, you think about so
many people that, you know, didn't, didn't have what we
have. And it's just, it's really
commendable to think about. You know, it just makes me look
at all of my relationships and with a new kind of respect and

(07:04):
light, you know, and maybe understanding of why people are
the way they are. And there's just like a
different openness and love in my heart.
How do you think your upbringingimpacted how you are as a
mother? I think it's given me this
balance of I know what I want Jackson to have and what he
deserves, but I also want him tobe grounded and, and know that

(07:27):
not everything should just be handed to him.
Me and all of my siblings have worked so hard for, you know,
the stability we had now have inour lives.
And, you know, I I want him to know where I come from, where my
husband, you know, came from andthat, you know, that to

(07:48):
appreciate, you know, the thingsyou have and, and to, to be
respectful. And yeah, it's just exciting.
Well, and. What's funny is we've been
fortunate to feature a lot of, you know, really successful
people for episodes of the show,and that's kind of an ongoing
topic. We'll talk about where you want
to create opportunities for yourkids that are endless and that

(08:12):
you have earned the the right todo, but the balance between that
and avoiding raising a little brat.
Exactly. It's on our minds every day.
I mean, he's only six months oldand we're still like, do we see
it coming out? Do we see a little brat coming
out? What do we need to do?
Yeah, how about the hardest partso far?
Motherhood. I think it's just not having

(08:35):
guilt. I'd say that's the hardest
thing. You know, I, I went back to not
dancing work, but everything else that I'm doing pretty
immediate. But there's just this, you know,
like sense of I can do more or I'm not, you know, I'm not doing
enough or I'm going and I'm, I'mmissing, you know, one of his
feedings or something. And, and I think that's been the

(08:57):
hardest part for me is just knowing that, you know, we're me
and my husband are doing our best and that we care so much.
And that that's, that's what should matter most is the love
that we're giving him and just trying not to get caught up in
the guilt. More kids.
Yes, I would love to. I mean, I'm 40 now, so, you

(09:19):
know, it's, I mean, women have children into their 40s now.
But I come from a big family. I'm one of six children.
And I've always wanted to have my child, to have a sibling or
siblings. It was one of the best things
about my childhood was having the, you know, 5 best friends

(09:39):
right there with me every day. And conscious decision to have
kids later in life. Yes and no.
I feel this is when it was supposed to happen.
But it's also really difficult as a classical dancer, as an
athlete, as a woman. And so, you know, if I were to
have had a child when I was a soloist at a BTI don't think I

(10:02):
would have become a principal dancer, which is terrible to
think about. Why do you say that?
It's, you know, you're looked atdifferently.
Maybe you're not taking your career seriously.
You know, a lot of dancers will,you know, maybe wait until they
become a principal dancer. But I wasn't promoted to
principal until I was 32 years old.
And then I had to actually be a principal for a couple of years

(10:25):
before, you know, stepping back and and having a child, so.
To to what extent do you think it's important that that
perception changes? I mean, it's, it's so difficult.
It's a difficult to be a workingwoman.

(10:45):
And I mean, that perception absolutely should change.
I think that it's you learn so much by living your life and you
become a better artist by havingall these experiences.
And so there's this like this kind of double edged sword where
in professional companies, they expect you to be so committed to

(11:09):
your craft and not have these outside experiences.
And then all of a sudden it's like, well, we want you to be
this artist, but you have no experiences.
So like, what are you drawing from?
So, you know, I, I think that it's important that we are
treated like adults at in the classical ballet world, which is
rare. You know, we're often treated
like children and called boys and girls as adults.

(11:32):
There's just like a a respect level that we you can be
responsible and have a child or have these other, you know,
outside experiences and still becommitted to your craft.
The time off, we were talking about it a little bit before the
the interview, but you wrote in your memoir a while back, quote

(11:52):
when I can't dance, I feel lost.Describe that feeling.
Throughout my childhood was I was like searching for a place
to belong and not thinking aboutit like we're here at a Boys and
Girls Club. And I think that was the first
place that I started to feel a sense of like, stability and

(12:13):
consistency in my life. Coming to the club everyday,
having adults around that, you know, cared about whether or not
my homework was going to get done.
You know, the mentoring and the tutoring and then finding
ballet, it really gave me a sense of purpose and then a way
I'd never experienced. So that just kind of became like

(12:34):
the, the stability in my life. So, you know, even as an adult,
when I would take time off, it was like my center of gravity
was like, gone. And how would that come out in
you when you would be off? You know, when I don't have like
the sense of control over like asituation or my body in

(12:56):
particular, I don't know, get like agitated and just not not
grounded and not myself just taking a ballet class that like
ritual of taking the same balletclass over and over again.
It's a sense of, of, you know, like practice, like yoga or, you

(13:18):
know, breathing meditation that that it can give you and just
coming back into your body day after day.
So then these past three years. Have.
Been like what for you? This past three years is the
longest that I've gone without dancing at the level I'm used

(13:38):
to. And it's kind of been replaced
with other things, though of course, my son coming into my
life, there's like a, a different focus.
There's part of myself that I that is not feeling like whole
because I haven't been dancing the way that I, I need to.

(13:59):
Initially, I was really thrilledto stop, to take a break.
Oh, you were? Yeah, initially.
You know, it's been a long run for me.
And, you know, I think about a lot of dancers who are principal
dancers and typically will step into that role pretty young, you
know, in their 20s, You know, a company, an artistic director,

(14:23):
artistic staff will see potential in a dancer.
They'll nurture them. But the point is to get them
fairly young so they can really become this principal artist and
grow into this position. But.
Correct me if I'm wrong, the schedule's supposed to ease up
some. It should become a.
Principal, you're not, you're not on stage every night.

(14:43):
You know, your, your rehearsals are, are intense, but they're
shorter kind of spurts. And that my whole experience was
like the opposite of what's typical.
And so, you know, at 32 years old and, and, you know, having
had that run of working, working, working towards this

(15:04):
goal for that long, it's, it's exhausting.
And, you know, with the pressures of being African
American, of being the first, I got to a point where right
before the pandemic, I ended up with a back injury and had to
pull out of my final performances before the company,
you know, before there were number of live performances and

(15:26):
I was ready, You know, I, I think I was at a point where I
was, I was already starting to think about, you know, like
what, what the end looks like of, of, of a professional career
with American Ballet Theatre. So I kind of got used to not
being in that routine of, of things.
But there wasn't that same senseof groundedness throughout this

(15:49):
time because I haven't had that in a rehearsal season.
We're in the ballet studio taking class every morning from
10:15 to 11:45 and then we rehearsed from noon until 7.
And for the majority of my career I wasn't getting breaks.
You get a 5 minute break on the hour, let's use bathroom, get

(16:12):
drink water. And then during a performance
season, you're in the studio from like 10:30 to 5:30 and then
performances start at 7:30 and that can go to like 11:00.
It's more physical than I think a lot of people realize.
And all of that training is, youknow, of course, going towards

(16:32):
becoming a character telling story through movement, keeping
our technique refined. But it's also about making it
look effortless. And I think that's why people
are, you know, assume that it's so simple because we train
really hard to make it look thatway.
So I understand you might be starting to get a little anxiety
at the thought of going back in January.

(16:53):
A lot. I have many nights that I wake
up and I'm like, Oh my God, I'm not going to be ready.
Even though I have like really ayear before I, I plan to be back
on stage. But I have those moments where I
wake up and I'm just like, it's,it's just never enough time.
But I think all dancers feel that way, even when you're in
the best shape of your life. I look back on times, I look at
photos and videos and I'm like, what was I thinking when I was

(17:15):
like, I'm not ready. I'm so not in shape and I'm
like, wow, you know, but I do have that that anxiety right
now. And I think that once I'm just
take that first step and really get back in the studio and
working towards, you know, the goal, I'll have less of it.
And then by the time you're on stage in front of an audience,
it'll been almost four years, right?

(17:36):
Or or somewhere upwards of. My last live performance was
December of 2019. So you had said how a single day
off can cause your muscles to forget what your mind knows by
heart. The ballet technique is so
incredible. I mean, just the idea, the
thought of standing on point on one leg and balancing all of

(17:57):
your weight. It takes, it takes years and
years of, of practice, but it's,it's a life, you know,
commitment to be able to get to this place.
And, you know, you take one day off and those tiny little

(18:17):
muscles that people don't even think, I mean, these aren't the
big muscles that you think aboutwhen you're in the gym and
you're using. These are the smallest little
muscles underneath in between your toes, those types of
muscles and tendons and ligaments that you take one day
off. And of course your mind
remembers exactly how it should feel, but your body so easily

(18:37):
forgets. I wonder if you know when you
get going again, if there's any chance you could just be like,
screw this, been there, done that, had had unbelievable
success, ready to move over. I don't know, you know, as an
athlete, really anything can happen to your body.
You know, of course you have control over a lot of things

(18:59):
and, and getting rest and takingcare of, you know, training
correctly and all that. But in the end, like you don't
have that much control over something happening to you like
physically. And so I think I've always had
this mindset of, of really enjoying everything I'm doing in

(19:20):
that moment. So I feel like I've done
everything I really have. And then some, you know, it's,
it's a bonus people to go on stage and, and do roles that
you've been doing for years and continue to grow in them.
Like that's an incredible privilege.
But I've done, I've done it all.And you know, I'm, I'm so

(19:41):
content and happy with my career.
But you know, I would love to beable to give back to the
audiences who have supported me,you know, in these in these
final years. I'm going to dance forever,
let's just say that. But in terms of being in a
company the caliber of, of American Ballet Theatre, that's
a big lift. So, you know, looking towards

(20:01):
the end of that. I feel I feel good about where I
am, but it's I think it's about a celebration.
I know when people used to ask you about the future, you would
always say rehearsal. What will make you realize when
you're ready to be done? I think once I'm back on stage,
like I'll have more it'll, I think it'll make more sense to

(20:23):
me. But, but I, I feel like I've
always looked at the company like as, as this as a whole and
not me, as like an individual inthat, in the company.
And so, you know, from my own experience of being a young
dancer and there's just never enough opportunities for young

(20:46):
dancers. And you have guest artists and
dancers who've been, you know, as principal dancers for years
and years, some decades, and they continue to do these roles.
And I've just always felt like it's going to come to a point
where it's like you have to passthe baton to the next person for
the for the good of the culture,of the morale of the company.

(21:08):
Like I feel like that's always been something in the back of my
mind. And right now, you know, I've
been away from the company for three years and it's a different
company. It's a young company.
I'm one of the oldest, you know,members in this company, which.
Is crazy to think which is. Crazy but I you know, it's a

(21:28):
it's a circle of dance life and I think it's a it's OK to let go
and and and give opportunity to the next generation I.
Wanted to ask about playing through injury as well.
One in one moment. Specifically when you're playing
a Firebird. Right.
You know, I've had severe, I've had severe injuries throughout

(21:50):
my career, as any other professional athlete does.
And if you could rattle off as many as you can think of.
OK, I've had so many sprains. Like I, I remember one of the
worst sprains I had, I'm not even exactly sure what happened
because I was supposed to have surgery and ended up they were
like, oh, you're walking, it's fine, you don't need the

(22:11):
surgery. But there's a muscle on the side
of my foot that completely went away and my left, my left ankle
because of an attachment or something that was ripped and
was never attended to. So I think that's the reason
that I have ended up with the shin injury because I didn't
have the right support on that side of my leg.

(22:33):
But I've had a stress reaction in my lower lumbar where I was
out for a year. I was wearing a back brace for
my rib cage to my hip for eight months, 23 hours a day.
I was 19 years old and I was hadonly been a professional for a
year. And they told me, I don't know
if you're ever going to be able to really, you know, do an
arabesque or arch your back in the way that you need to.
I did. I was able to.
I healed completely and. That was a reoccurring theme,

(22:55):
doctors telling you that I. Won't might not be able to do
something. Yeah, right.
Yeah, I mean, I've learned so much throughout these injuries
and it's been an important lesson to get more than one
opinion and trust yourself and your and the knowledge you have
of your body because you know your body best.
The most severe was the injury that I had in 2012, preparing to

(23:19):
perform the Firebird. It had been a long season of of
learning and rehearsing principal roles, doing
performances on tour and not resting enough.
You know that fear of this is myone shot, I can't take a day
off, which is not smart. You know, reality of it.
You have to rest. But that was a hugely

(23:40):
consequential role for you for multiple.
Reasons. There were several of those
roles happening that year, but the Firebird in particular to be
the lead, you know, the first principal dancer in a full
length classical work as a blackwoman at American Ballet
Theatre. And so, you know, it got to a
point by the time we were at Lincoln Center, which, you know,

(24:00):
yes, I did the performances on the road.
The first was in my at home in Orange County, California.
But I needed to get on the stageat Lincoln Center at the
Metropolitan Opera House and andas a black woman, what that
meant was huge. So that was kind of the goal.
Even though the Firebird was happening halfway through the

(24:22):
season, I still had a full rest of the season to finish and I
didn't make it through the rest of the season.
I did 1 performance of the Firebird and it was the most
unbelievable experience of having half, more than half of
the audience at the Met full of black and brown people and young
people that we'd never seen thatat the Met.
I remember one of the cleaning women that had worked at the Met

(24:45):
for like 40 years and she came to me and she asked if it was my
family in the audience. And I was like, well, I don't
have 2500 family members I know of.
They're all coming to support mebecause it was like to see that
much diversity was unbelievable,but it.
Stopped the applause, stopped the show.
I mean, it was, it was somethingthat I'd never experienced

(25:07):
before and it was so much biggerthan me.
And then to go from that extremehigh to, you know, the following
morning, I went into the artistic director's office and I
said, I'm in so much pain, I can't perform anymore.
And no one knew the extent of how much pain I was in because I
knew that if I let them know, they would have taken me out of

(25:30):
rehearsals, They would have taken me from performances.
I would have found out the severity of my injury much
earlier. And I would have never done the
Firebird and I never would have been promoted to principal
dancer. So I knew the risk I was taking
and, and why and you know, even,and at that point it was like,
if that's The One Show I get to do as a principal dancer, you
know, and with that title role, that's enough.

(25:52):
And the impact that it might have had on that audience that
night and the possibilities of knowing that that could happen
again. But I ended up finding out I had
6 stress fractures, 6 stress reactions in my tibia and three
of them are dreaded black line fractures which are almost full
breaks through the bone. It was bad, like really really

(26:13):
bad. And I thought did.
You surprise even you Yes. I did not realize it was that
bad. I thought maybe I had a stress
fracture, but not that many. And I was told by I think 6 or 7
doctors that I would never danceagain.
So that was pretty devastating to see that many doctors and for
them to tell you or give you options that just weren't

(26:34):
practical realistic to continue on.
And I, the last doctor I saw wasthe one I I stopped with and
that was Doctor Martin O'Malley.And you know, he is a surgeon
for professional athletes. And he said, oh, I see this
injury all the time with football players and basketball
players and I can put a plate inand we'll have you back on

(26:58):
stage. And I was on stage in eight
months. So tell about this really loud,
very angry rap music that you'llsing along to when injured.
I that's so funny. I think that I think there's

(27:18):
been a connection, well, for me,connection to music my whole
life, which is how I made that entry into dance.
Yeah, I get that. But that wouldn't necessarily be
somebody who's aware of Misty Copeland wouldn't necessarily
expect to see you, Gemini. Right, I know, but it's it's

(27:39):
been like having a a wide variety of music to be able to
express yourself through. But I heard you go to that when
injured when I. Think I, I love hip hop and, and
rap and I again, I listen to such a big variety of music, but
I mean, there were times in my younger years, I remember just

(28:00):
finding myself and listening to a lot of Eminem and kind of
having that outlet. I don't know about angry, but
there's just something that, youknow, even if I'm preparing for
like a Swan Lake where people might assume that I'm listening
to like Tchaikovsky or somethingbefore and it's like whatever
mood I'm in, there's a lot of like hip hop or like a lot of

(28:22):
Drake, like before a Swan Lake performance that might get me
like hyped up. But it's it's a range of music
that allows for me to express myself and and prepare to
express myself on stage that just activate something in.
Contrast to what you'd listen towhen your family was watching
sports back in the day and you'dgo into your bedroom, right?

(28:44):
Mariah Carey. Yeah, a big.
Mariah Carey. Fan huge yeah, yeah.
Having that that connection to someone who I felt I could
relate to, you know, being a biracial girl, you know, not
coming from a lot of instabilitylike, you know, she did growing
up. And and I don't think I

(29:06):
recognized until I was older, like the power of
representation. And that's what I was seeing
when I, when I looked at Mariah Carey and her success and, and,
you know, being given an opportunity and reaching this,
this level of success, it was, it was really impactful.
Sports psychologist What made you decide to go?

(29:30):
I think that the conversations that I've had with my husband
throughout, you know, the time I've known him, it's, it's not
kind of pushing things under therug and really facing fears you
have holes in, you know, your kind of belief in yourself or

(29:53):
understanding of why things happen.
And it, it got to a point where I started to have anxiety around
performing and I've just felt itwas the smart thing to do to, to
speak to a professional and, and, and to get tools to how,
you know, understanding how to deal with those things and.

(30:16):
Which a lot of elite athletes. Yeah, yeah.
And you know, I've never ever, ever had like the connection to
the stage and performing and, and me it, it was like the
opposite of what a lot of peoplefeel like.
There has never been stage fright.
It's always been a sense of comfort.
Like in this bubble where no onecould touch me and I could just

(30:38):
express myself through through movement, but got to a point
where, you know, being put on this kind of trajectory of to be
the first and, and the pressuresof this white ballet world that
I felt never was going to acceptme.
It was like no matter what I do on the stage, I'm not going to
win everyone over. And and that started to develop

(31:00):
anxiety in me around my performances.
Some would probably think that as you've had more success, the
criticism or the noise would maybe go away.
But for you, it got to you more,right?
Yeah. You know, I think that it was
like a combination of not only my success within the ballet

(31:23):
community in the ballet world, but to go beyond it and to go
outside of it, you know, with endorsement deals, the, you
know, books, speaking engagements, the, you know, the
ballet world's not used to seeing that.
And you know, it's, it's like how, what is my commitment to
this craft and the purity of, ofwhat a typical principal dancer

(31:48):
looks like? And it's like I don't fit any of
those molds. And the reason that I do have
these opportunities outside of ballet or because of my career
as a classical dancer, and I'm doing all of this to benefit,
you know, to bring more people to ballet, to diversify it.

(32:09):
And that's how you do it. You have to go outside of the
small, isolated bubble that the ballet world has existed in for
forever. What did you learn from talking
to? Yeah.
You know, it's, it's important Ithink for me to check in like
daily, especially before performances and get a sense of

(32:34):
like why I'm feeling anxious. Like getting to the root of what
it is and then and then decidinghow real it is.
Is that something that's in my mind, or how important it is
that I need to give it that muchfocus?
And what's an example of of that?

(32:56):
You know, I, I went through a period where I was anticipating
who was going to be in the audience and what they were
going to say, like what blog they were going to write.
You know, literally like every step I was taking on the stage,
it was like, is this right? Is this good enough?

(33:17):
I'm, you know, in the midst of preparing to do the 32 foentes,
which is one of the most difficult technical feats in the
classical technique and repertoire.
And in the middle of preparing for this, I'm thinking about
what some critic is going to write.
And then completely losing my focus and not being able to
physically accomplish what I needed to on the stage like

(33:40):
that, that was beyond anything I'd ever experienced up until
that point. And so to be able to step back
and and just be present and in the moment and stop getting
ahead of myself. You wrote in your book when you
were younger and growing up. I, I think I was born worried
that there wasn't a day I didn'tfeel some kind of anxiety.

(34:02):
My panic would begin from the moment I woke up.
Yes. How so?
Yeah, this fear of not knowing what was going to come day in
and day out in my in my childhood, you know, whether it
was my mom waking us up in the middle of the night and saying
like, we're leaving your dad, we're moving and not knowing
where we were going, not having a consistent place to stay or

(34:24):
knowing if we were going to havefood on the table.
All of these things just createdthis this severe anxiety inside
of me. I would sometimes go to sleep
with my school clothes on with this fear that like, I wasn't
going to wake up and have enoughtime to get ready or I'd need to
be at school an hour early. And just like I needed a sense
of control. And you would map the route out

(34:44):
right before like a school year.I would rehearse going to
school. I would have my mom take me to
school and, and walk from classroom to classroom to make
sure I knew where all the classrooms are going to be, how
much time it was going to take me to get from one place to the
other. It was really just, you know,
this young insecure girl likes looking for control in some way

(35:11):
because I didn't have any control over anything that was
happening in my life. And it's like a scary feeling,
you know, also being, you know, a middle child.
And there was just so much chaos.
And I didn't really have anything that allowed me to find
who I wanted to be until I started dancing.
You wrote for a little girl who lived in terror of making a

(35:31):
mistake, of being embarrassed orcriticized in front of others.
The stage was somehow an Oasis. What made it that for you?
When you look out into the audience, you can't see anyone's
faces. It's just a sea of like darkness
of black, but you feel the energy.
So there's something so safe to me about like not seeing

(35:54):
people's like reactions, but just feeling the love.
Like whether it was the applauseor just an energy, you literally
feel from the audience, from a group of people being in the
room. And then, you know, the fact
that no one could say anything to me.
Like there, there, you know, it was like I was just up there and
no one could do or say anything.Whether that was, you know, you,

(36:17):
you get coached and and you train and you have the coaches
are the ballet masters and mistresses that are saying stuff
to you while you're dancing and yelling out things or there's
constant feedback. But when you get on stage, it
all goes away and you're responsible for yourself.
And there's something so empowering about that to be able
to be responsible, be in controland do something.

(36:40):
I love being able to express myself through non verbal art
form. It was the perfect fit for me.
How did a Lifetime movie impact you when you were 7?
My mother grew up dancing. She was professional cheerleader
for the Kansas City Chiefs football team.

(37:00):
My sister was like on the drill team at the middle school.
So I had a connection to movement, but I didn't really
understand what that looked likeand what it was I was drawn to.
But I was attracted to gymnastics.
So whenever the Olympics, you know, would come on TVI was
watching floor exercises. And then this Lifetime movie

(37:21):
came on about Nadia Komenich, who was the 1st to score a
perfect ten. And there was something about
her story that was so incredibleto me to see these amazing ups
and downs, but this connection that she always had to to
gymnastics and but, but looking back, the floor exercises, the

(37:44):
way they move, it was so similarto classical dance, though I'd
never seen classical dance, but I was drawn to that.
And that just kind of like opened up my mind to what was
possible. I heard you sat for a week
observing class. Before it might have been more
than that, yeah. OK.
Before you first participated init and then you're at Boys and
Girls Club and you quit after your first class or or think

(38:06):
about quitting. Yeah, I've had just gotten on
the drill team. This was like the the biggest
thing I've ever done in my life to decide I wanted to be on this
dance team where you were putting yourself out there in
front of people performing. And then I not only auditioned
for the drill team, I auditionedfor the captain of the drill
team and and made it and was named captain.

(38:28):
So I finally found something that was just enough outside of
my comfort zone. So then when I was asked to take
this free ballet class from the Jilton coach, she thought I had
a lot of potential. It was like, are you kidding me?
Like this is so far outside of my comfort zone.
And the teacher, Cynthia Bradley, at the time, you know,

(38:49):
she just kept pushing me. You know, she's like, it's OK
that you don't have the right attire.
That was another thing, too. It's like not fitting in, not
having a leotard in tights and slippers and being on a
basketball court. I was like, this just all feels
wrong. So I sat in the bleachers for
weeks. And every class, you know,
Cynthia would come over and justsay, like, just come down one

(39:10):
more, one more seat on the bleachers and like, just get
closer and closer. And it was scary.
It took going to the to her ballet school where she gave me
a full scholarship. And once I was in the studio,
was in the proper attire, was surrounded by other dancers, and
I could, and I was looking in the mirror and I felt beautiful

(39:32):
and I felt in control. That's when it all clicked and
changed. And the rest, I guess, is kind
of history. But you were quickly viewed as
a, a, a prodigy, but you startedlate.
And because you started late, there were steps or productions
that you were unfamiliar with. How would that come out in you?

(39:56):
You know, even up until I had been a professional for like 5
years I was still like finding holes.
In my technique, in my knowledgeof, of classical dance and, and
the repertoire and it's there's no shortcuts.
There's no shortcuts in dance. I think that there's always time

(40:20):
to catch up, but it's not something that you can get done
quickly. It's, it's going to take years.
So starting at 13 years old, four years later, I was already
a professional. And there were still, yeah,
there was still vocabulary I didn't know.
I mean, it's a, it's a new language.
It's all in French. It's a literally a new language
you're speaking. And I remember still learning to

(40:41):
do steps when I was already dancing at the Metropolitan
Opera House with American BalletTheatre.
And I believe at various points in your life, your peers have
been resentful that you get opportunities that may not be
afforded to them. Tell about this book that you
wrote in China while you were like, over there.

(41:06):
Did Layla tell you about this way?
I don't. I don't even know if I remember
the details of it. I.
Heard it was sitting on your bookshelf for a a a long time at
your old department. I don't even know if I remember.
I mean, I was, I was all about like.
You guys were like getting. Documented.
Up on by the the other. We documented everything that

(41:30):
that happened with us. My best friend Layla, you know,
we definitely found commonality in being different and.
Who's now your partner? Who's now my partner.
Production company, but you know, both of us not coming from
backgrounds where we had family members or people who understood
the classical ballet world and, you know, Layla's first

(41:50):
generation, you know, American and being Lebanese, Cuban and
Persian and me, you know, being black and white.
And we just had this connection and bonded and, and I'm so happy
that I had her. But yes, our first our first
tour with American Ballet Theatre to China.
We definitely, you know, I thinkit was just a part of the like

(42:12):
hazing, but we definitely were bullied and made fun of.
I remember being told by a dancer, a male dancer in the
company, like just being made fun of because everything again,
like it's just it all comes backto like this idea of like
needing control over everything.And I would come to class every

(42:34):
day like impeccable. Like my hair, there wasn't a
hair out of place. It was like, hold back so tight.
You know, everything that I wore.
I was never that dancer that hadon the like holy leg warmers and
the shirt hanging off my shoulder like that wasn't me.
And, you know, I was called a bun head, which as a young
person that's like you're a partof this like cool squad and

(42:56):
you're one of the kids that, youknow, is walking around with
their feet turned out and the butt in their head.
But once you become, you know, aprofessional adult, it's like
calling someone a nerd or, you know, and I remember being
called a bun head over and over again and people coming up to me
and pretending to like, spray like shellac on my hair 'cause
it looked so like hard and pulled back with Hairspray.

(43:16):
And, and, and being, you know, not knowing the protocol and,
and what it is to be in a professional company where like
as a young person, you have to wait before until everyone in
the company finds their place atthe bar for you to find a place.
So sometimes, you know, a principal dancer may come in 10
minutes late and you have to give up your spot at the bar and

(43:39):
you're holding on to like the edge of a chair.
Like, it's just, it's pretty ridiculous, you know?
It got to you guys then. Especially, yeah.
And we were apprentices in the company.
So we were like the lowest on the totem pole and like and
treated accordingly. So it was, it was a lot.
I'm just glad that I had I had Layla in that time to go through

(43:59):
it with me. You're trying to come up with
some stuff you haven't pronounced.
About I know that through me I was like, what?
Your mom? Yeah.
You said her childhood was kind of filled with pain.
Yeah. In what ways?
My mother is adopted. She never knew who her, you know

(44:22):
really where she came from. She was raised by two older
parents that died when she was pretty young and raised by her
adopted like cousins and aunts. I think never really having a
true connection to any group of people like never really having
a family. Her mother was an alcoholic.

(44:45):
She dealt with, you know, she was married very young and he
was murdered. And there's just a lot of
searching for a family. And I think she, she created
that by having six children, youknow, made a family for herself.
But there, there was a lot of abuse and, and instability and

(45:05):
and movement in her life and then eventually in ours.
You think that upbringing impacted her how?
Well, I think that she was just like I was saying, just like
constantly searching for a senseof, of family and consistency

(45:26):
and love. And I think that's why she
married so many times. And I, you know, it's just
always searching for what she didn't have growing up and, and
I guess creating that on her ownby by having all of us.
And you said you always loved her, but you didn't really

(45:46):
understand her. Yeah, I think that as an adult,
like, it's easier to look back and say something like that
because, you know, I think it's understanding, like who you are
first. And I don't think she ever did
that. And I think that it's, you know,

(46:07):
before having a family and I, I don't think she had the, the
liberty to, you know, I think that as, as a young person
without a support structure or system around her, she was just
kind of trying to do all of thison her own.
I didn't always understand the, the, the constant moving ahead
rather than stopping standing still and examining oneself.

(46:30):
When you have stability and you have a support system around
you, it's easier to say that andand be able to look at yourself,
which I have as an adult. Explain what would happen, where
she would fear for her life and essentially you guys would have
to immediately pack up and move on.
It happened many times and we'd never know when it was going to
happen, but yeah, whether it was, you know, you know,

(46:54):
physical abuse in the in the house, which happened on many
occasions with different husbands.
And and you would you would witnessed that.
Yes witnessed it a lot of verbaland emotional abuse as well.
And I remember very vividly, youknow, being like in, in the
middle of the night or somethingand, and someone coming and, and

(47:14):
a car pulling up and all of us just taking what we could and
just jumping in the car. And, you know, out of out of
fear of, yeah, her, her, our lives.
You know, just not being in a safe situation and having to
kind of go hide out for a littlewhile in other people's homes

(47:34):
and sleep on the floor, staying in motels and just a lot of a
lot of chaos in that way. One time, but I believe you've
heard gunshot and then a thud. It must have been 14 years old.
And we were staying at, you know, we would call them aunt

(47:56):
and uncle, but they were not related to us.
Friends of my mom's from somewhere and they lived in
downtown LA. And we were sleeping, all of you
know, all of us kids were sleeping in their living room on
the floor. And it just was not a safe area.
And there was a drive by shooting and I ended up with
this guy bleeding on our porch and trying to help him and just

(48:16):
things I shouldn't have seen, you know, there were guns in the
house. And I remember my brother, you
know, finding 1 and pointing it at me.
And just the, the thought of like just no security.
I felt that a lot as a child. And that was, you know, just
added to the the anxiety that I had.

(48:36):
What was the kind of the hardestpart of life when your your mom
applied for food stamps? It was around 12 or 13 years old
and, and that was at our lowest point, you know, on food stamps,
not having a home like from day-to-day.
It was like, are we going to have enough money to pay this
week weekly rent out a motel, you know?

(49:00):
But it was also just like the shame and this sense of like
having a secret for most of my childhood.
So I never had close friends. My siblings are my best friends.
And you know, it was just this fear of people finding out and
judging. And so I just kind of kept
everyone at a distance. The shame being.
The shame being circumstances, the shame being that I didn't

(49:23):
have a home, that we didn't havefood, that we were on food
stamps, that we, we, that we lived, we didn't even live in
Saint Pedro where I was going toschool.
We lived far away. I had to take the, you know,
public bus. All of these things that just
be, you know, it's just not a good feeling to have like
secrets like that. And, you know, even when I
started training with Cynthia, she didn't even know the extent

(49:46):
of my home circumstances and andwouldn't find out until I
actually told her I had to quit dancing.
And she drove me home and saw that I was living in a motel.
And that was when she invited meto live with her.
Before she found that out, just to give her context, how did she
really build yourself confidence?

(50:06):
When I met Cindy, I'd never met someone who was so free in her
body, in herself and open and and accepting of me.
I never felt judged by her. She she was just a a support, a

(50:29):
friend, a mentor, all of these things to me and a ballet
teacher that was just so open togiving as much of herself to me
to get me to where I needed to be professionally.
It didn't I mean she make you feel like beautiful and that
you'd be performing for kings and Queens and like all all this

(50:49):
stuff, like kind of zeroed in, in terms of her focus on you in
a way that. I'd never had, yeah.
Being, being one of six children, there's not a lot of
focus individually, you know, that I experienced and, and she
definitely gave me that in a wayI'd, I'd never had, but also had
these grand predictions of what my life and career would be

(51:10):
like. Of course, you know, I think at
the time I just thought she, shewas a little like quirky.
And I was like, oh, like, that'scool that she's saying all of
that, but I don't know how realistic it is.
But to have someone that had that much belief in you was
something I needed. And so your mom kind of says,
look, because of how far away ballet is, it just is going to

(51:35):
have to stop. Take me to the conversation that
Cindy had with your mom at the motel and what you remember from
that. Yeah, I remember just being this
ball of tension on the way home,just waiting for that moment.
We turned into the Sunset Inn, and Cindy realized that's where
I was living. And so as soon as we got we

(51:57):
turned into the parking lot, I ran out of the car.
Like I didn't even say bye. It was just like, I'm so
mortified. I'm never going to see this
woman again, but I'm so mortified.
And I just want to go inside andlike bury myself and.
What was it about that place that made you feel that way?
I mean, what child is, you know,wants to show that they they're
living in this dingy old motel, like off the side of the

(52:20):
highway, you know, we all livingin one room.
And it was embarrassing. It was embarrassing.
And, and I don't recall what I had told her up until that
point. I don't know if I would lie to
her and told her we were living in an apartment or what it was,
but she had no idea. So I, you know, I went upstairs
and I kind of just went back into my shell like the person I

(52:41):
was before dance. I sat in the corner and was just
like zoned out. And a couple of minutes later
there's a knock at the door. And Cindy had turned around.
She had left and was just kind of in shock with what she just
witnessed. And then decided to turn back
around. And she spoke with my mom for a
while. And my mom turned to me and said

(53:01):
Cindy asked if if you would wantto go and live with her so you
can continue training. And it was shocking.
And I was like, yes, no. Really not a doubt in your mind.
Not at all. It was like the thought of not
dancing again. It was like this hole already,
you know, and, and what my life would be.

(53:23):
I'd become so attached to it andit started to develop as a
person in ways I never had before.
I was actually stunned that my mom let me go.
So you know, I took the few clothes I had and put in my book
bag and left. As a kid, when like there's that
transition, one would think it would be really traumatic, but I

(53:45):
believe that was the first transition you had that wasn't,
was not. Yeah, it was the most loving,
supportive, warm environment. Like from the moment I stepped
into their house for the first time again, I just feel like I
spent so much of my life feelingjudged and and or a waiting for

(54:06):
judgement to come. And and I never ever felt that
in their house. They made me feel like I was a
part of the family always. There was a lot of protection,
you know, when it came to what I'd experienced, You know, there
was there was a lot of trauma. I mean, even, you know, when I

(54:26):
turned 16, it was towards the end of the time that I was
training with Cindy and was living with her family.
And there was a big court case that ended up ensuing.
And my mom was trying to get a restraining order against the
Bradleys. You know, I was starting the
process of getting emancipated. So it it blew up into something

(54:49):
bigger than I ever imagined. It became a national story, you
know, on talk shows. And it was, it was, it was
really traumatic. And so it was around that time
that, you know, my 16th birthday.
And I think that everyone was doing their best to protect me
and, and to, you know, not talk about things that were happening

(55:10):
in my life that would kind of bring up that trauma again.
And it was, you know, I was a really fragile girl at the time.
And, and so many, you know, I would get these severe migraines
throughout my childhood. Which you don't have.
I don't have anymore because youwere concerned that it would
like could flare up when you gotto New York and prevent you from

(55:32):
competing. There was this fear of, you
know, I would get these migraines and I would literally
be bedridden for a night throwing up and I just couldn't
be in light. And the thought of going and
becoming a professional and having that, you know, like what
if this happens? I can't just not go on stage.
And, you know, but so much of somuch of the stress, it was all

(55:52):
connected to the stress I had asa child.
And, you know, on my 16th birthday, it, it flared up and
we were, I had a couple of parties, but there's one at the
new ballet school that I was attending.
And, you know, and everyone kindof, they didn't know me, but
they all came together to, you know, welcome me in this place.

(56:14):
And they knew what I had been through.
It was all over every paper and all over TV.
And I ended up in the backroom with a severe migraine, sleeping
and in the dark. And while everyone was out there
eating cake and celebrating my birthday.
What's your? Opinion now on what transpired
during that period with the emancipation and court case and

(56:38):
all of that. I don't know, I, I feel like
things happened so quickly and there wasn't a lot of time spent
thinking about what the repercussions could be on me
and, you know, if things didn't go smoothly, which they didn't.
I, I, I think that it was just kind of a panic to keep me

(57:00):
training, you know, a fear of ifI went back home and stayed with
my mom, who knows what would have happened with me and my
career, you know, in those environments and how, how would
I continue my training. And so I think it was just a
panic, you know, from, from the Bradleys, from me.

(57:21):
And then I, you know, I understand why my mother would
react that way. I can't imagine being a mother
now, being in a situation where you felt like you, you know,
didn't have control over your own child.
Because your mom essentially said need to come home and then
Cindy picks you up 11 morning and says not taking you to

(57:41):
school. And you're going home.
Yeah, it's. Yeah.
It was a complicated, complicated time and I
eventually ended up back home with my mom and and she
eventually got an apartment in San Pedro and I continued to
train at another school. It took me like a decade just to

(58:03):
be able to say the words and revisit that time without
getting so emotional it. But yeah, I've had I've had, you
know, 20 plus years to heal and and also recognize that, you
know, it's not my fault. I think when I first was coming

(58:24):
out of that situation that I felt a lot of guilt, you know,
whether it was, you know, that that I put my family through
that, you know, that we were allkind of exposed in a way.
You felt guilt. Yeah, that it was like this
situation with me that made thishappen.
And I put my siblings were kind of brought into it and everyone

(58:46):
knew about our home situation like the secret that we all had.
So it took time for me to to, torecognize that it wasn't my
fault that I was a child and, you know, just trying to
maintain good relationships witheveryone.
I was going to say how's time impacted your relationship?

(59:08):
Great relationships with everyone.
Yeah, which is, which is incredible.
So your dad, you wake up, you know, one day, I don't think
you'd seen him since you were two years old, and decide you
want to reconnect. What made you make that
decision? I think it was getting to a
place in my young adult life, you know, as a professional, as

(59:33):
an artist and wanting to understand like who I am.
And I think that it took like looking back and connecting with
my father to really understand that and become like the person
and the artist that I wanted to become.
My my oldest brother, Doug Junior, he he was only reached
out first and found him in Wisconsin.

(59:57):
And I think it was maybe a year later that I called my brother
and I said like, I'm ready, likeI want to meet him.
So it was a beautiful, you know,reunion, I guess.
And me and my brother Doug we both resemble.
Him so much so like the three ofus, I felt like were connected

(01:00:19):
in a different way. Because you'd never even seen a
photo, right? I'd seen a very few but it was
like looking at my brother. It was mind blowing.
And did the interest first startin your journal before actually
reaching out? I was journaling.
I mean, that's something I had done since I was very young.

(01:00:39):
And I think as someone who didn't verbally express herself,
that was the my way of doing it.And so there was, yes, a lot of
a lot of journaling about, you know, what that would look like
in the anticipation and who he might be.
And it's, it's such a, it was very fascinating.
How did the process of reconnecting comparative what

(01:01:00):
you would have thought? You know, you imagine it's going
to be like this Lifetime movie, I guess, and and then I was
going to have this like emotional kind of outburst, but
it wasn't it was meeting a stranger ultimately.
And it took time to to build an emotional bond and connection

(01:01:22):
with him. But I'm, you know, I would never
take back going through that and, and, and eventually meeting
him. All right, I want to completely
switch gears here. Now that I've grilled you about
family life, I actually wanted to talk about Prince.
What happens where one day somebody asks for your number

(01:01:44):
and then that afternoon he's on the phone?
Yeah, it's pretty surreal, you know, it, it's I just, there's
so many things in my life that happened that I'm just like,
it's so crazy that it's like it was meant to be.
I was at a point in my career, I'd been a soloist for a couple
of years and I it's kind of a standstill.
You know, even thinking about mypromotion, when Kevin McKenzie

(01:02:07):
promoted me to soloist, there wasn't from my memory, there
wasn't this like huge excitement.
It wasn't like it was kind of like, I'm giving you this
opportunity. Like, you know, it's time for
you to step up and take it. But I didn't feel like a real
sense of support, like I believein you and we're doing this.
So, you know, from the time I became a soloist, it was kind of

(01:02:29):
like shaky and I kind of felt onmy own and trying to figure out
what my future looked like and whether or not I belong, really
belonged in this world as a black dancer.
Really. Yeah.
Even, you know, up until that point of being, you know, I was
only the second female African American female soloist to be

(01:02:49):
promoted to that position in thecompany's history.
But it still just felt I just didn't feel like a big sense of
like guidance in in what it meant to be a soloist and work
towards being a principal dancer.
And I then I got a call from someone asking if Prince could
have my number. And none of it made sense to me.

(01:03:11):
I was shocked and I said OK. And I remember him calling while
I was in the middle of a ballet class and I knew he was going to
be calling. And if you know, so like
elusive. I had no idea when like what
that looked like. So I stepped out of class I.
Was going to say, presumably that's one you stepped out of
work, Gilda. I was OK.

(01:03:31):
I was like called you back and Istepped out and I and I took the
call from him and, and he prettymuch said I've been looking for
you for over a year and I haven't been able to get in
contact with you, which I was like, that's crazy.
But he had remade the song Crimson and Clover and he just

(01:03:53):
had, you know, when he has his mind set on something like he is
going to do it. And he envisioned me dancing in
this video. And he ended up shooting the
video with another dancer and, and just thinking like, this
isn't it. This isn't what I had in vision.
So finally connected. And within a couple of days, I
was in LA improvising on the set.

(01:04:16):
And, and, you know, that was thestart of this beautiful
friendship that brought me to a better place of understanding,
like what I wanted out of my career, which is why I was
saying like the time, you know, the timing was just so perfect.
I ended up touring with him all over the world and having that

(01:04:36):
experience of, of you know, someone that was such a creative
genius that believed in me and was pushing me to explore my
dance in a, in a different way. It just it allowed me to become
the artist that I am today. And the touring started in
Europe, and then it came stateside.

(01:04:59):
Yes. Tell about those rehearsals at
the IZAD in New Jersey. Yeah, it was an interesting
time. You know, Prince was great that
he he understood that ABT and mycareer is ballerina.
Like that's my career. And it's amazing to have the
opportunity to do these performances outside of ABT and

(01:05:20):
also expose his audience to classical dance, maybe who
didn't have interest or would never step into the Metropolitan
Opera House. And but I was in the midst of
rehearsing for The Nutcracker for ABT when his performances
were also going on in Jersey, so.
Talk about a grueling schedule. It was unbelievable.

(01:05:42):
I would finish rehearsing at theNew Jersey Performing Arts
Center and, you know, we'd finished like around 9:00 or
10:00, and then Prince would pick me up in a limo and we'd
drive to the Iods or, you know, wherever we were.
It was the IoD in New Jersey andand rehearse all night there for

(01:06:03):
his shows and then wake up in the morning and have my full day
with ABT. You know, it was, I was young
and these are sacrifices that I wanted to make because I I could
see the bigger picture. And it's Prince and it's Prince
and it was, it was an incredibleexperience, you know, performing
at Madison Square Garden and. What was it about that moment at
MSG? There was an energy and a

(01:06:30):
connection with another artist on stage that I'd never
experienced before, you know, someone of again, of like his
musical genius. And you know, he would do things
in rehearsals that you know, he he would, he wouldn't do and he
wouldn't do them in rehearsal. And then he would become this

(01:06:51):
other person on stage. That was unbelievable to see
this person like blossom into this magnetic thing on stage and
to be a part of that and to havehim, you know, the first time
that I I came onto the stage formy solo and he introduced me
Misty Copeland like to his audience was just shocking.
You know, I wasn't just a backupdancer for him.

(01:07:13):
You know, it was, it was a a collaborative effort and it and
it really. You're thinking what in that
moment? It shocked me.
I like jumped out of my skin andI had to like get back in my
skin to finish performing because I wasn't expecting for
that type of acknowledgement or respect or introduction.
And it was a beautiful. Moment and the impact he had on

(01:07:37):
your self-confidence and understanding yourself worth was
what? To have another artist again of
his caliber kind of say to me toacknowledge the power in in
being unique, which is like the opposite of what we're told in

(01:07:58):
ballet. You know, it's like everyone's
trying so hard to fit into this cookie cutter mold of what, you
know, generations and generations of dancers have
looked like and trying to be that and everyone trying to look
the same and, and be this kind of uniform thing, especially as
a court of ballet dancer. And, you know, Prince was like,

(01:08:19):
this is like, it's you're the only black woman in the company.
Do you know what power that you know you have by like standing
out and being different and being unique?
And I never looked at myself that way.
And as it is, she, I just, he gave me a sense of yeah,
confidence and and empowerment that I've never recognized

(01:08:40):
before. There was a New York Times
article titled Where are All theBlacks Want?
And you said that was the first article you ever read reflecting
the heartbreak and the loneliness that you felt.
How so? There is a black ballet
community out there. You know, I think that it was

(01:09:03):
during that time that it was a little more, you know, Dance
Theatre of Harlem was was not operating.
They were on a highest seven-year hiatus.
The black dance community, ballet community was not as
strong as it had been. And and I felt like I didn't
have a lot of that. I couldn't go to Dance of Harlem

(01:09:31):
and look at dancers that looked like me there.
There just wasn't that same community that was intact.
And, you know, when this articlecame out, I felt like it was the
first time I was experiencing acknowledgement outside of the
Black dance community that this was an issue to have it be

(01:09:52):
recognized in such a concrete way.
It just like opened the floodgates of all the things
I've been like, you know, that Ihave to hold inside it in order
to like, keep it together every day and not, you know, be
realistic maybe and think like, what will ever come of my career
is this is this a reality for me?
Instead, it was like convincing myself day in and day out that

(01:10:15):
like this, yes, I can do this. I can maybe break the glass
ceiling. And then this article came out
and it was just like, I don't know that it's ever going to
happen for me. Why am I any more special than
any black dancer that's come before me to be able to, you
know, push through and become a principal dancer?

(01:10:35):
And then it was somebody you were friends with in the company
whose reaction really had kind of a negative impact on you who
didn't intend it. That way, no, not at all to to
have someone who doesn't maybe understand the pain and and the

(01:10:57):
realities around all the roadblocks for black dancers,
you know, to read that article and, and and think it was silly
or that it maybe wasn't wasn't accurate or true was was
devastating. And it just kind of was a
reflection of, of what I felt everyone at ABT was probably
thinking or everyone in the dance world that didn't

(01:11:21):
understand our, our history as Black dancers in the ballet
world, the importance of our impact and the fact that we're
not given the same opportunitiesor access to be a part of this
world. And that's a big problem.
Cindy once told you something about why a company rejected you

(01:11:48):
and it was important to you to save that letter.
For what purpose? I, it was very interesting at a
time when, you know, I was auditioning for summer intensive
programs. I think I was like 14 years old.
And I mean, I did not have a lotof training under my belt.
I had like a year, a year and a half of ballet training under my

(01:12:10):
belt. But every, every single school
that I auditioned for, I was given a full scholarship to,
except for one school I wasn't even accepted.
And. Here in New York.
Yes, and you know, a lot of a lot of these schools and
companies have reputations for not being inclusive and not
being diverse. And, and she just felt that it

(01:12:33):
was important for me to remember, you know, what to
remember and, and acknowledge that this had a lot to do with
my race, but something to, to look back on and feel empowered
in the future, which I do now. And also recognizing just the

(01:12:56):
work that needs to be done, the work that needs to be done
internally within the in the ballet community.
Which which is what? That I think that a lot of it's
happening right now, you know, within the pandemic, I've seen a
big shift. But I think in order for us to
rebuild and and do the work we need to see, we need to be

(01:13:18):
exposed. And I think that the ballet
world comfortably has been able to live in this very white
bubble. And there's no repercussions for
their lack of support, acceptance, inclusion.
And I think we're at a point where, you know, people are

(01:13:42):
speaking out and beyond me. And and I, it shouldn't solely
be, you know, coming from my voice.
It should be a collective conversation that not just black
dancers are having, but dancers,period.
The lack of diversity, the racism that still exists, you

(01:14:03):
know, even if it's these micro aggressions, you know, having
dancers of color not be allowed to wear tights that are their
skin color, that they're being forced in order to fit into a
company environment. You have to wear pink tights and
pink ballet slippers. What representative of a white
person's skin or you don't have the right hair texture to put

(01:14:24):
into these hairstyles. So therefore, you know, we're
not going to accept you in this company, you know, things,
things like that that have gone on for for far too long and and
need to be addressed and changed.
There was a situation where you were playing a part in, I
believe, Sleeping Beauty, and the makeup person's coming over
with white powder. What was it about that that made

(01:14:47):
you decide to finally kind of take a stand?
I think it was, you know, comingto a place where I felt come
starting to feel comfortable in in my skin and with who I wanted
to be. Especially when you're on stage
and you're, you know, a role model and you're, you know,
these, all these young, young kids in general, but black and

(01:15:10):
brown kids looking at you and they should be able to tell that
you're black when you're on stage.
And it just, I just hit my limit, I guess.
And I turned to the makeup artist and I and I said, why do
I have to be a white cat? You know, I was playing the role
of Puss in Boots and Sleeping Beauty and, and she just kind of

(01:15:31):
looked at me and she was like, Iguess you don't.
And I was. And so we made me myself a brown
cat and it, you know, it was a small like kind of silly step,
but it but it. Wasn't.
Really small it wasn't. And, you know, these are
conversations that I've continued to have throughout my
career where we're really kind of dissecting or like

(01:15:52):
understanding, deciphering, you know, what these things mean.
Like, you know, when you play a role as like a Willie and and
Giselle or a swan in Swan Lake, why would you have to paint our
skin white? I can't understand the idea of,
you know, wanting to take away the shine so that you look
otherworldly or like an animal or whatever it is.

(01:16:14):
But that doesn't mean you have to be white.
So I've I've had these conversations and small
adjustments are made, but and they're ongoing conversations
that are still happening today. When the Dance Theatre of Harlem
was first pursuing you, what wasit about thinking about your mom
that made you decide to stick with your trajectory?

(01:16:36):
Yeah. You know, the thought of
watching this, you know, this pattern from my mother of
running away and starting a new situation that ended up with the
same issues because they were never dealt with.
There was something about that that was triggered in me when I

(01:16:58):
thought about leaving AB T and going to Dance Theater of
Harlem. You know, my, am I just running
away so that things are going tobe easier for me because I'm
surrounded by other black dancers?
Or do I stay and, and really getto the root of the issue?
How do we make changes, systemicchanges in the classical ballet
world where a black dancer can be in a white majority company?

(01:17:22):
The impact that you'd like your success to have had on people of
color would be what? I think that, you know, within
our history in America, I think often black people, black women
are kind of pinned against each other.
And, and we're in situations where there's one opening, one

(01:17:43):
position for a dancer of color in a company.
And it's, and it just doesn't create a, an environment that,
you know, is for us to support one another.
And I think that we're at a place where we have to like,
really come together and, you know, have the same mission in
mind. And, and for me, I'm always
thinking about opportunities forblack dancers using my, my voice

(01:18:07):
and my platform to, to call out companies that aren't, you know,
taking these things into account.
And that that should be. But I think it's important that
we we create a a different system in that the next
generation of of black and browndancers feel a supportive

(01:18:27):
environment around them coming into the space.
And in the remaining couple minutes we have, you know, as
you look to the next chapter foryourself, they're all these kind
of extensions of you that you'recreating to help in progressing
that whether the foundation or production company, you know,
etcetera. On the foundation front, what

(01:18:49):
are your goals with that? Yeah, my, you know, my
intentions with creating a foundation are, you know, like
you're saying everything that I'm a part of.
It's it's all connected to danceand it and all with the same
mission and goal in mind. It's to bring more diversity and
equity to to ballet. It's to expose people, expose

(01:19:11):
young people that don't have thethe means to be a part of it.
Don't have the access, don't don't have maybe the support or
their families or caretakers, whoever don't have an
understanding of this world. But it that it can be an outlet.
It can be a way of developing tools and becoming better
citizens and then their society,in society and their

(01:19:34):
communities, bringing people together that dance is that
should be a part of everyone's lives.
And I think there's something inparticularly incredible about
ballet and it just hasn't been something that's been open to
all communities. And so, you know, through the
foundation, it's, it's, you know, social justice through

(01:19:56):
dance and to be able to create our first program, the B bold
program, which stands for Balletexplorations Ballet offers
leadership development. To have that our our first kind
of run of the program be at a Boys and Girls Club at 5 Boys
and Girls Clubs in the Bronx, a free ballet class in that after
school period. Such a vital time for for

(01:20:17):
children. It's like a full circle moment.
And then with the production company, I was talking to Layla
yesterday and 1st it's amazing some of the people that have had
ballet in, in their their lives.I mean, they let me see Billie
Eilish, penélope Cruz, Charlize Theron, Rahm Emanuel of of among

(01:20:41):
others. But you're trying to accomplish
what with kind of the media? Extension, I mean, we were
talking earlier just about the opportunity to, to bring dance
to more people, the reach you have through film and television
or, you know, on social media, like, but this in this visual

(01:21:03):
art form that you shouldn't justhave to be in a theatre to
experience that and to be able to tell stories of, of artists
that we should know about. And we don't.
You know, that was one thing that we were really looking to,
to do to give opportunity to dancers.
You know, why, why do we make dance films and, and tell

(01:21:26):
stories and not use real dancers?
You know, it's, it's a real missed opportunity, but just to
give to, to show more people, toexpose more people to dance and,
and for me, ballet in particular.
And lastly, if you view your life in kind of decade chunks,
you know, life's changed a lot for you over the past 10 years.

(01:21:51):
You go 10 years before that get,you know, just obviously changed
a lot. 10 years from now, where would you like to see yourself?
You know, to continue on with the same mission with everything
that I'm a part of, you know, whether it's Life in Motion
productions, whether it's the books, you know, it's amazing to

(01:22:15):
be at a place as an entrepreneurand to be a founder and
greatness wins. And, you know, this athletic
wear brand with with other athletes who understand, you
know, you know, to have been in similar positions.
And, you know, it's all kind of aligned with exposing, you know,

(01:22:39):
bringing more exposure of, you know, dance to more people,
showing that dancers are athletes and, and deserve to be
in a position of, of getting endorsement deals and the
respect I'll forever be a part of dance and bringing it to
different communities. But, you know, I think just

(01:23:01):
showing the power and beauty of dance and and how it can heal
people and bring people together.
I. I should ask too the motivation
behind writing the 8th book. Yeah, the the motivation behind
yes, my 8th book, which is I know.
Remarkable. It's.
Crazy. And how you even have the time?

(01:23:22):
I don't know. I don't know how, but the wind
at my back. It was really, you know, the
relationship with my mentor, Raven Wilkinson, who was the
first black ballerina in a majorballet company, the ballet
rooster Mante Carlo in the 1950s.
Getting to know her, finding outshe lives a block away from me.

(01:23:44):
I don't know how many years ago that was now when we met for the
first time. But having her come into my life
and and show me what it really means to have, you know, passion
and perseverance and, and want to stay connected to this art
form, even with all the extreme hate.
She's, she, she experienced, youknow, being chased out of her

(01:24:05):
company by the KKK, her life being threatened, her career
being cut short in America. But to get to know her and to
develop this relationship and her giving me a renewed sense of
purpose in my career. So this is the story, you know,
it's her story, it's my story and how they kind of collide.
And, and I, I don't think I'd bein this position and be a

(01:24:27):
principal dancer and be the person I am without that
relationship in in my life. And you can find out how your
husband proposed, too. Yes.
Thank you very much for doing. This so much, such a pleasure.
Thanks for listening to my chat with Misty Copeland.
To see more of our time together, including our visit to
AB Bold Class and her attempt toteach me how to plie, go to

(01:24:49):
youtube.com/graham Bensinger. As always, before you go, please
leave us a rating and review. Thanks again for listening.