July 4, 2022 • 23 mins
Infinite Improvisation Podcast: adventures in music and creativity with Steve Treseler and Lauren Best.
The second of a five-part series on how to improvise, exploring each of Infinite Improvisation's creative practices: Experimentation, Play, Limitations, Deep Listening, and Reflection. In this episode, we dive into play—embracing the unknown, taking the scenic route while learning through exploration, and being kind to ourselves.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lauren Best (00:08):
Welcome to the Infinite Improvisation Podcast,
Adventures in Music and Creativity.
I'm Lauren Best.
And I'm here with Steve Tresler.
Hello?
Hello.
So we're back for another mini episode.
Yeah.
And this one we're focusing on da da.
(00:29):
Play
Steve Treseler (00:33):
Play, yeah.
One of our five creative practices, firstmini episode is on experimentation.
So now play, I mean, we saythat we play music, right?
Mm-hmm but sometimes it doesn'tfeel like people are playing when
they're grinding through, you know,some drills or have a demanding
teacher breathing down their neck.
So getting back into the play.
Lauren Best (00:53):
Yeah.
And I feel like in some ways it's the mostnatural ki you know, children play, right?
Like we were born to play.
It's it's in some ways, so easy,so natural, but it can also be very
elusive mm-hmm , you know, if you tellsomeone to, to have fun or to play.
Yeah.
(01:13):
Um, You know, or like sometimespeople can run with that and
they can be like, oh yeah.
Okay.
I'll have fun.
But sometimes it can, it can feelawkward and it can feel hard to instruct
yourself even to, to be playful.
Mm-hmm
. Steve Treseler: Yeah.
And it's, I mean, it's, it's natural.
We all, you know, we all played andplayed and played when we were, when
(01:36):
we were kids as adults, we still.
you know, we, we still like playfulactivities, but as you said, if
yeah, it's a forced situation.
That can be tough.
I mean, imagine I've seen gr youknow, groups of kids that are running
around and playing and some adultcomes, okay, well now it's time to
play pin the tail of a donkey and dopresents and we need to play this game.
So, oh.
And it ruin, you know, thensuddenly the play is not happening
when it's, when it's forced.
(01:57):
Mm-hmm , mm-hmm or sometimes the play can be so complex.
Mm-hmm that, you know, ifsomeone describes to me a.
I really complicated game.
I often would, you know, I'llfeel overwhelmed or won't feel
nearly as playful sometimes.
Um, but that, that being saidsometimes once, you know, the game,
those additional additional rulesand elements kind of add to the
(02:19):
playfulness and add to the fun mm-hmm.
Steve Treseler (02:21):
So how, how do you see as playfulness helping
spark creativity or improvisation?
Lauren Best (02:30):
Well, we were talking about curiosity in our last episode.
Mm-hmm and I think, and experimentationactually, and I think a lot of play
is about observation and curiosityand kind of seeing what happens.
Mm-hmm um, you know, like yougive a baby, a ball and they see
what happens when they throw it.
And if you give a bigger kid, aball, they, you know, they might
(02:53):
act with it in different ways,but often they'll do things that
are pretty simple with it, right?
Like they'll throw it up in the air andcatch it, or, or they'll throw it against
a wall or they'll, you know, createan invitation by throwing it to you.
Um, So I'm inspired a lot by seeing whatkids do and seeing how kids play and how
kids play in situations where they aren'tasked to play, but they play anyways.
(03:15):
And the, and the playfulnessis like an organic part of the,
of the learning and, and of theexperimentation because they just,
they observe and they explore things.
And they're curious, and it, itkind of naturally leads to play.
Steve Treseler (03:28):
Mm-hmm absolutely.
Yeah.
I was just playing my, my daughter wasplaying piano down here the other day.
And I know her, her piano, teacher'sworking with her on, you know, exploring
the piano and even preparing the stringsand putting paper in, in the strings.
So sometimes she brought me down.
I thought that we were gonna,she needed help with one of her
pieces, but she just wanted to jam.
And we had like the malletsand the brushes from the drums.
(03:52):
And she was like playingthem on the strings.
And then I was like, oh, whathappens if I hit the pedal?
And then we were doing this preparedpiano piece, but I was all ready to
help her with fingering for something,but she was ready to explore.
Yeah.
We made some sounds in the piano.
I'd never heard before.
Cause we're in play mode.
We could very well have turned into aturned into a piece, but yeah, we can
get lots of guidance from, from kidsin this, uh, uh, in, in this regard.
(04:15):
And.
and
Lauren Best (04:16):
yeah.
And she's approachingsomething unconventionally too.
Mm-hmm like you were saying youwere ready to help with fingerings
and kind of problem solving.
Yeah.
Like the process of this kind oflinear, like, um, goal oriented thing.
But by looking at it unconventionallyand thinking about playing the strings
in different ways, um, it opens up,opens up different different aspects.
(04:38):
And I think the, the freedom toplay in ways that may not be how
it's initially suggested to play.
Like, I guess there'sdifferent kinds of play too.
Right?
Mm-hmm like, there's, there's playwithin a game where there's kind of like
a rules and a structure and it's set up.
(04:59):
There's like serious play.
I know there's different definitionsof serious play, but you know, like
kids, aren't always laughing andhaving fun when they're playing.
Sometimes they're, they're, they're, youknow, play acting really dramatic, rescues
that are very high stakes and there'ssome really deep drama going on there, but
there's still like, it's, they, they are,it is playful and they are playing mm-hmm
(05:22):
um, and like free play that we can comeat things like with really unconventional
angles where it's not necessarily as,as bound by rules as like a game mm-hmm
. Steve Treseler: Yeah.
And this is also, as we talked aboutbefore, the difference between,
you know, linear skill developmentversus a more non-linear creative
process and they don't, they don't,and the two can work together too.
(05:45):
They're not necessarily, there'snot a dichotomy between the two.
Sort of depends on how you're approachingit and what, what you're doing, but the
play it's not going to be efficient.
Yeah.
You know, at achieving the goal it's.
So here, here's a, um, a quote I wantedto read from Steven Nachmanovitch from
Free Play, Improvisation in Life and Art.
Couple quotes from, from this book Iwanna share in this episode, but he
(06:07):
says anthropologists have found quote.
GA lumping to be one of the prime talentsthat characterize higher life forms.
So GA lumpy GA lumping is imaculatelyrambunctious and seemingly inexhaustible
play energy apparent in puppies,kittens, children, baby baboons.
And we Goum when we hop, instead of walk,when we take the scenic route instead of
(06:30):
the efficient one, when we play a game.
Whose rules demand a limitation ofour powers when we are interested
in means rather than an ends.
And we voluntarily create obstacles inour path and then enjoy overcoming them
and in higher animals and in people,it is of supreme evolutionary value.
(06:50):
Hmm.
Yeah.
So it pays to not, to not be efficient,you know, take the scenic route or
same thing as you could do that.
Oh, we're gonna hop on.
Yeah, we're gonna hopon one foot or only you.
Only step on the shady spots and yeah,
and I suppose so play like improvisation , but play like
we have to give up part of the plan.
(07:12):
I was thinking of taking the scenic route.
And basically I was thinking abouthow, you know, we might not categorize
that as play, but we can kind of insertplay mm-hmm by changing our plan, you
know, by sometimes I won't plan to takethe scenic route and I've, I think.
Hmm.
I could pause.
(07:32):
I'll take a pause.
I'll take a minute.
I'll, you know, I'll go out of myway and I'll, and I don't necessarily
have a plan for what I'll do.
And I, in fact, had toabandon my other plan.
mm-hmm but it, it often ends up, endsup being that I, by kind of inviting
that unknown and making that choice,uh, Well, sometimes it just means I
(07:52):
have some really beautiful moments onthat scenic road, you know, or with
myself, but it can kind of inviteother, other ways of thinking and stuff.
Yeah.
I guess that's a little less
rambunctious,
Steve Treseler (08:04):
but yeah, I less rambunctious, but it's yeah, not,
uh, but the not efficient, um, youknow, just for the, the sensory,
the sensory appeal of doing it or.
um, but it is, is a way of solving.
It is a way of solving problems,even when they may be trivial is, you
know, not, not stepping on a crack onthe, on the sidewalk, but the scenic
(08:26):
route, or I think about taking a walkthrough an unfamiliar town, you know,
like, well, where am I gonna turn?
I don't, you know, if you're not followinga map and just kind of letting your
intuition guide you and you have a uniqueexperience that you couldn't necessarily
have just planned out or I'll take anotherroute like, oh, I haven't been down
this, haven't been down this road before.
Let's let's see, let's see where it goes.
Lauren Best (08:44):
Yeah.
And I, I like that because it'skind of like, don't get me wrong.
I love the rambunctious energy too.
Mm-hmm but I like that becauseit's like a small, manageable
type of mm-hmm type of chaotic.
Good.
You know, like it's, it's choosing this,this small bit of play, but I think
there's also something to be said for.
Kind of creating a sandbox for yourselfor whether that's a certain amount of
(09:07):
time that, uh, you know, you're gonnagive yourself a lot more freedom to play
or whether that's a certain energy, likecoming at things with that, um, that, you
know, as you're saying that, that kindof puppy wrestling vibe, like either
that or a different, um, Like, I thinksometimes it's the energy we come at.
(09:28):
We, we come to things with right.
And, and, and how, how we'reframing our experience with
that, that kind of intention.
And mm-hmm . And sometimes it's amatter of like giving ourself a chance
to laugh and, and to, to, to fail andto, to, to learn, um, in these, these
ways that are maybe broader than,than the path that we would plan out.
Steve Treseler (09:52):
Hmm.
. Yeah.
And I find that the, this playfulelement, it can be disarming for people.
That like are more inviting andit's not necessarily that we have
to do, you know, taking the edge offat having to be really, you know,
really serious or really precious.
And they use that a lot in my, in myteaching, uh, a story that comes to mind.
(10:15):
I was teaching at a, itwas in a middle school.
I was doing some saxophonecoaching and I walked by.
The brass sectional and the,the tuba players who plays
in, you know, orchestras.
And if he's leading this brass groupand he saw me and he like waved
me in, he's like, Hey, I'm tryingto teach these guys to improvise.
We're doing a, a brass band song.
And we teach him the grooveand then trying to get them to
(10:36):
improvise a little bit, teachingthem a blue scale or something.
And there's this Frenchhorn player sitting there.
He's crosses his arm.
And he looks at me and he'slike, I am not playing a solo.
I am not improvising.
I was like, we're not improvising here.
We're just gonna play thequestion, answer game.
He's like, oh, You know, so like you'regonna play a phrase that goes up and then,
you know, your friend here is gonna play.
It goes down.
I got them just playingconversations, back and forth.
And then I let him know that Itricked him into, into improvising.
(10:59):
But as soon as it's the game, same thing.
When I go in and do those classes, I don'twant someone to say, Steve's coming in.
He will teach you all how to improvise.
I'm like, no, we're just, we're playinga game or we're messing around and we're
gonna, what would happen if we do this,getting into the experimentation side and
there can be a lot of novelty involved.
uh, which might seem silly, but it getspeople to take some of those risks to be
(11:24):
spontaneous and expressive and listen, andinteract and interact with other people
and what they're hearing mm-hmm . And thenthat can pivot to some more listening and,
or just more intensive kind of activitiesthat might not have the silliness,
but you feel more comfortable with theprocess and with, and with the people.
So I find it to be super.
(11:45):
Super effective as a teaching tool and asa learning, learning tool tool for myself
. Lauren Best: Yeah.
And it's a little different whenthere's other people like it can
be well, especially because youdon't know what your play partners
mm-hmm experience is, right?
Like it kind of creates more of thatunknown and more of that novelty because
you're, uh, or especially in a group.
(12:07):
Um, and you know, and yousee other people laughing.
And so it's easier to, I think, disarmourselves mm-hmm and to kind of,
uh, try to control the situation lessand enter into some different ways of
thinking and ways of being where welet we let ourselves be in the game.
And whether we're being in the game askind of with the feeling of a leader
(12:28):
or the feeling of a follower or thefeeling of being a little bit competitive
or the feeling of being like verycooperative, it can, it can kind of.
Lend taking things tosome different places.
I really like playing solo.
Like I really like wandering around alonesometimes or like, you know, rolling
around on the floor and dancing and stuffand, and kind of doing some of that stuff.
(12:51):
Totally, totally on my own.
But it's a different thing thanwhen, than when you're able to, to
bounce ideas off of other people.
And I'm just constantly inspiredby children and animals and seeing
the, the funny things they do.
And then like seeing what someof those templates are of, well,
either like taking turns, right.
Turn taking on its own,becomes a structure for play.
(13:12):
Um, and other things I reallytranslate to music around,
you know, turn taking, but alsocopying, you know, like kind of
matching each other in energy or in bodylanguage or deliberately contrasting.
Like in some of these elements of playthat I, I just love observing what, what
(13:33):
young kids do or, or animals I saw, Isaw a bird harassing another bird and
it was , you know, doing these very likefunny little motions of flying up at
the bird and like like dropping down.
Um, and you know, that was just somethingI saw way up high in a tree, but it was
such clear, funny little moment that,um, Like taking something like that.
(13:55):
Could, you know, you could base a wholegame off of that or a whole, a whole,
um, a whole musical concept off ofjust this one little observed moment.
I find getting outsideof my own human brain,
mm-hmm and, and well, I'm observing withmy human brain, but you know what I mean?
Like taking inspiration from how otherpeople play rather than being like,
I need to be the source of the playmm-hmm being like, oh, I'll just,
(14:17):
I'll just pretend I'm that bird orI'll pretend I'm that baby , you know?
Mm.
Yeah.
And when we get into that mode with our,with our art, that we can be playful, not
that it's not important or not seriousor, or trivial, but being in the play in
the playful mode, we can start to feelsafer about, you know, generating more
and getting into the experimentationthat we were talking about earlier.
And it's just a much better frameof mind to be in rather than like,
(14:43):
oh, this has to be, you know, I needto make something good right now.
Or, you know, getting allthese other expectations or.
Lauren Best (14:50):
Well, and yeah, the frame of mind and the mindset, like,
like, I think we all have a sense oflike what kinds of attitudes result
in, in, in play that tends to be moreor less successful for us as people.
Like, you know, we, we know that ifwe, if we drag our feet, showing up to
the park and kind of hang our head and.
(15:11):
You know, whine our way through ourpark experience, we might not have
as many kids wanting to play with us.
Right.
Like, we've seen that.
And I mean, some kids have dayslike that at the park anyways.
Right.
Mm-hmm but like that's a really,kind of easy to understand thing,
but I think sometimes as adults, wecan be, uh, nervous about our own
creativity and sometimes approach itwith like a sense of anxiousness or
(15:34):
a sense of like dragging your feet alittle or getting down on ourselves.
And I think thinking of it as play,lets us think of like, how do I wanna
be entering into this playful realm?
And um, like there are times wherewe take ourselves very seriously
in play, but I think being inplay helps us take ourselves less
seriously overall in a good way.
(15:55):
Like, you know, like we canrespect ourselves still without
necessarily like being in our heads.
mm-hmm , you know?
Steve Treseler (16:04):
Absolutely.
And yeah, some, I mean, I've seen itwith some of my music students too.
Some that became the most highlyskilled players and some had gone
on to be professional players whenthey were young, they were just,
you couldn't take the horn out.
They were just playing and playingand playing and they weren't
being super disciplined about it.
Sometimes I'd run like, well now,now you need to do this exercise or
make sure you articulate properly.
And now I'm more likely to justkinda let 'em go for a while.
(16:25):
Yeah.
Cause they're just working things outand playing and playing and it didn't
seem, it didn't seem like work, althoughthey were developing the skills.
I mean, to some degree when I was youngertoo, I just liked playing my saxophone
at the, the age where I was improvedthe most probably in, in high school.
and I heard, you know, teachers, youknow, trying to tell their students to
practice more and like, well, Steve,how much did you, you know, how much did
(16:46):
you practice when you're in high school?
I'm like, I don't remember.
I just liked getting my hornout and playing, after dinner.
I'm like, I'm gonna go playsome tunes and just go.
Yeah.
And it, it felt like play andit's aligned can be very aligned
very much with skill development.
Lauren Best (17:01):
Yeah.
And sometimes too, it's like taking.
Taking those meandering approachesto skill development, you know where
like it is, it is silly sometimes,or it is chaotic sometimes.
Like I find so many kids are reallyexcited to play their instrument.
Mm-hmm but it's like alot , you know what I mean?
Like they wanna play it so much thatlike, it can be very tempting to be like,
(17:23):
That's not really music, like slow down.
Like, why don't you try somethingthat I'm showing you mm-hmm
like, you know what I mean?
To really?
And mm-hmm, , there's, there are times toreign things in for various reasons, but,
um, but sometimes by really exploring likethe intensity we can or, or, you know,
like the many ideas they have, we can.
We can work with that.
And we don't like teach kids to run or,or, I mean, we don't teach kids to run.
(17:49):
I'll just put it there.
Kids run mm-hmm cause they were, theylearned to walk and then they run mm-hmm
because like they're excited to runand we don't like put them on a track
right away and time them, you know,like they run in many different ways.
They run in silly ways.
They run like in different places.
Like, you know, we don't.
They like drill them on the type ofrunning that is the final outcome,
(18:09):
you know, we like, we let themmeander around with it, you know?
Steve Treseler (18:13):
Yeah.
They didn't have to have a gradingrubric for running in order
to teach them how to run yeah.
Lauren Best (18:17):
Yeah.
And then they, and then theyexperiment with it in, in
different ways, you know, mm-hmm
Steve Treseler (18:24):
yeah, I guess to, and finally I wanted to
yeah, pivot to another, uh, Iguess another angle on play.
This is another quote.
Steven Nachmanovitch's bookFree Play about playfulness, but
also as we're creating new work.
So, and he says there's anold Sanskrit word, Lela, which
means play richer than our word.
(18:45):
It means divine play.
The play of creation, destructionand recreation, the folding
and unfolding of the cosmos.
Lela, free and deep, is boththe delight and enjoyment of
this moment and the play of God.
It also means love.
Hm.
Uh, I,
Lauren Best (19:05):
I will always love that quote
Steve Treseler (19:06):
yeah, I was, no, I, yeah, I read it last season, too.
Kind of keep coming back to it.
So the type of play, whatever your beliefsare on the creation of the universe,
or however that happened, but justimagine, you know, I'm imagining yeah.
The, the creative force of that,that playful creation energy
of putting new works of art outinto the, out, into the world.
(19:30):
So it can have that kind of depthof, of meaning in a, you know, yeah.
Not just dogs playing at the dog park,you know, we're talking about this.
And it's could, could allbe related too, but well,
Lauren Best (19:42):
and I think of kids too, right.
And we, we lovingly nurture their playand we lovingly create space for them to
play, you know, and that like, Especiallywhen they're very, very young, right?
Like we're kind of,we're holding the space.
for them to just, just playand be creative and explore
things in different ways.
(20:02):
And I, I, um, I love the ideaof that loving energy behind it.
Mm-hmm . Like, I know I talked about, youknow, there, there can be serious play or,
or, um, you know, like a competitive play.
Like there can be different energies toit, but I love the idea of just coming
back to it being like a, a, a loving, kindof supportive energy around being playful.
Steve Treseler (20:26):
Yeah.
yeah.
Yeah.
And that's, and again, this isto wrap up, this How episode.
So this, again, this we'll get, youknow, as, as we go, we'll even come up
with some more, um, practical kind ofprompts and, and things you can work with.
But these first two, especiallyexperimentation and play, it's really
so much about the, the mindset thatyou're, and, and the, the way that you're
(20:48):
approaching, approaching this work,um, which may, may be different from
how you've, you know, learned, learnedskills in the past where it's can be.
Yeah, very, as, as we talkedabout very, very linear or,
or prescriptive and measured.
But yeah, embracing, gatheringdata as a scientist and skipping
(21:10):
down the sidewalk is a baby baboon
. Lauren Best: Yeah.
Yeah.
And I, I will be envisioning, skippingdown the sidewalk with my baby
baboon oh, for the rest of the dayas I go, as I go, go off and play
. Steve Treseler: Ah, well now I learned something about you, that you roll
around on the ground by yourself to play
.Lauren Best: Sometimes.
Yeah.
(21:31):
Yeah.
I feel like that's a, I feellike it's a theater thing.
Like get low, like get to the ground.
You know.
And see how, how the, thesupportiveness of the ground can.
Um, that's actually like, you know, whenyou lie down, mm-hmm, . You experience
gravity in a different way, which,you know, that sounds obvious, but
literally when we're standing, we'reworking against gravity, when we lay
(21:54):
down like our, the, the way we're ableto be supported without needing to
activate our balance in the same way.
Mm-hmm I find, um, I really appreciatethe change in perspective mm-hmm and
not only is it a, is it a, uh, an awesometool for like physical work and kind
(22:16):
of rehabilitative work around, around,um, physicality and, and stretching
and strength and, and things there.
I find that it, uh, very literally givesme a different perspective on things.
Hmm.
Sometimes it gives me a perspectiveon like, oh, maybe I need to vacuum.
Lauren Best (22:37):
Maybe I'll do the next podcast episode from the ground.
Steve Treseler (22:40):
Whoa
Lauren Best (22:43):
we'll ground ourselves.
Steve Treseler (22:44):
Yeah.
Oh, I was about to go on riff aboutthat, but that will defeat our, our
intention to keep this as a mini episode.
Lauren Best (22:51):
Yeah.
So we'll give you, we'll give you guyssome ways to play, but please tell us how
you like to, how you like to play too.
Welcome to the Infinite Improvisation Podcast,
Adventures in Music and Creativity.
I'm Lauren Best.
And I'm here with Steve Tresler.
Hello?
Hello.
So we're back for another mini episode.
Yeah.
And this one we're focusing on da da.
(00:29):
Play
Steve Treseler (00:33):
Play, yeah.
One of our five creative practices, firstmini episode is on experimentation.
So now play, I mean, we saythat we play music, right?
Mm-hmm but sometimes it doesn'tfeel like people are playing when
they're grinding through, you know,some drills or have a demanding
teacher breathing down their neck.
So getting back into the play.
Lauren Best (00:53):
Yeah.
And I feel like in some ways it's the mostnatural ki you know, children play, right?
Like we were born to play.
It's it's in some ways, so easy,so natural, but it can also be very
elusive mm-hmm , you know, if you tellsomeone to, to have fun or to play.
Yeah.
(01:13):
Um, You know, or like sometimespeople can run with that and
they can be like, oh yeah.
Okay.
I'll have fun.
But sometimes it can, it can feelawkward and it can feel hard to instruct
yourself even to, to be playful.
Mm-hmm
. Steve Treseler: Yeah.
And it's, I mean, it's, it's natural.
We all, you know, we all played andplayed and played when we were, when
(01:36):
we were kids as adults, we still.
you know, we, we still like playfulactivities, but as you said, if
yeah, it's a forced situation.
That can be tough.
I mean, imagine I've seen gr youknow, groups of kids that are running
around and playing and some adultcomes, okay, well now it's time to
play pin the tail of a donkey and dopresents and we need to play this game.
So, oh.
And it ruin, you know, thensuddenly the play is not happening
when it's, when it's forced.
(01:57):
Mm-hmm , mm-hmm or sometimes the play can be so complex.
Mm-hmm that, you know, ifsomeone describes to me a.
I really complicated game.
I often would, you know, I'llfeel overwhelmed or won't feel
nearly as playful sometimes.
Um, but that, that being saidsometimes once, you know, the game,
those additional additional rulesand elements kind of add to the
(02:19):
playfulness and add to the fun mm-hmm.
Steve Treseler (02:21):
So how, how do you see as playfulness helping
spark creativity or improvisation?
Lauren Best (02:30):
Well, we were talking about curiosity in our last episode.
Mm-hmm and I think, and experimentationactually, and I think a lot of play
is about observation and curiosityand kind of seeing what happens.
Mm-hmm um, you know, like yougive a baby, a ball and they see
what happens when they throw it.
And if you give a bigger kid, aball, they, you know, they might
(02:53):
act with it in different ways,but often they'll do things that
are pretty simple with it, right?
Like they'll throw it up in the air andcatch it, or, or they'll throw it against
a wall or they'll, you know, createan invitation by throwing it to you.
Um, So I'm inspired a lot by seeing whatkids do and seeing how kids play and how
kids play in situations where they aren'tasked to play, but they play anyways.
(03:15):
And the, and the playfulnessis like an organic part of the,
of the learning and, and of theexperimentation because they just,
they observe and they explore things.
And they're curious, and it, itkind of naturally leads to play.
Steve Treseler (03:28):
Mm-hmm absolutely.
Yeah.
I was just playing my, my daughter wasplaying piano down here the other day.
And I know her, her piano, teacher'sworking with her on, you know, exploring
the piano and even preparing the stringsand putting paper in, in the strings.
So sometimes she brought me down.
I thought that we were gonna,she needed help with one of her
pieces, but she just wanted to jam.
And we had like the malletsand the brushes from the drums.
(03:52):
And she was like playingthem on the strings.
And then I was like, oh, whathappens if I hit the pedal?
And then we were doing this preparedpiano piece, but I was all ready to
help her with fingering for something,but she was ready to explore.
Yeah.
We made some sounds in the piano.
I'd never heard before.
Cause we're in play mode.
We could very well have turned into aturned into a piece, but yeah, we can
get lots of guidance from, from kidsin this, uh, uh, in, in this regard.
(04:15):
And.
and
Lauren Best (04:16):
yeah.
And she's approachingsomething unconventionally too.
Mm-hmm like you were saying youwere ready to help with fingerings
and kind of problem solving.
Yeah.
Like the process of this kind oflinear, like, um, goal oriented thing.
But by looking at it unconventionallyand thinking about playing the strings
in different ways, um, it opens up,opens up different different aspects.
(04:38):
And I think the, the freedom toplay in ways that may not be how
it's initially suggested to play.
Like, I guess there'sdifferent kinds of play too.
Right?
Mm-hmm like, there's, there's playwithin a game where there's kind of like
a rules and a structure and it's set up.
(04:59):
There's like serious play.
I know there's different definitionsof serious play, but you know, like
kids, aren't always laughing andhaving fun when they're playing.
Sometimes they're, they're, they're, youknow, play acting really dramatic, rescues
that are very high stakes and there'ssome really deep drama going on there, but
there's still like, it's, they, they are,it is playful and they are playing mm-hmm
(05:22):
um, and like free play that we can comeat things like with really unconventional
angles where it's not necessarily as,as bound by rules as like a game mm-hmm
. Steve Treseler: Yeah.
And this is also, as we talked aboutbefore, the difference between,
you know, linear skill developmentversus a more non-linear creative
process and they don't, they don't,and the two can work together too.
(05:45):
They're not necessarily, there'snot a dichotomy between the two.
Sort of depends on how you're approachingit and what, what you're doing, but the
play it's not going to be efficient.
Yeah.
You know, at achieving the goal it's.
So here, here's a, um, a quote I wantedto read from Steven Nachmanovitch from
Free Play, Improvisation in Life and Art.
Couple quotes from, from this book Iwanna share in this episode, but he
(06:07):
says anthropologists have found quote.
GA lumping to be one of the prime talentsthat characterize higher life forms.
So GA lumpy GA lumping is imaculatelyrambunctious and seemingly inexhaustible
play energy apparent in puppies,kittens, children, baby baboons.
And we Goum when we hop, instead of walk,when we take the scenic route instead of
(06:30):
the efficient one, when we play a game.
Whose rules demand a limitation ofour powers when we are interested
in means rather than an ends.
And we voluntarily create obstacles inour path and then enjoy overcoming them
and in higher animals and in people,it is of supreme evolutionary value.
(06:50):
Hmm.
Yeah.
So it pays to not, to not be efficient,you know, take the scenic route or
same thing as you could do that.
Oh, we're gonna hop on.
Yeah, we're gonna hopon one foot or only you.
Only step on the shady spots and yeah,
and I suppose so play like improvisation , but play like
we have to give up part of the plan.
(07:12):
I was thinking of taking the scenic route.
And basically I was thinking abouthow, you know, we might not categorize
that as play, but we can kind of insertplay mm-hmm by changing our plan, you
know, by sometimes I won't plan to takethe scenic route and I've, I think.
Hmm.
I could pause.
(07:32):
I'll take a pause.
I'll take a minute.
I'll, you know, I'll go out of myway and I'll, and I don't necessarily
have a plan for what I'll do.
And I, in fact, had toabandon my other plan.
mm-hmm but it, it often ends up, endsup being that I, by kind of inviting
that unknown and making that choice,uh, Well, sometimes it just means I
(07:52):
have some really beautiful moments onthat scenic road, you know, or with
myself, but it can kind of inviteother, other ways of thinking and stuff.
Yeah.
I guess that's a little less
rambunctious,
Steve Treseler (08:04):
but yeah, I less rambunctious, but it's yeah, not,
uh, but the not efficient, um, youknow, just for the, the sensory,
the sensory appeal of doing it or.
um, but it is, is a way of solving.
It is a way of solving problems,even when they may be trivial is, you
know, not, not stepping on a crack onthe, on the sidewalk, but the scenic
(08:26):
route, or I think about taking a walkthrough an unfamiliar town, you know,
like, well, where am I gonna turn?
I don't, you know, if you're not followinga map and just kind of letting your
intuition guide you and you have a uniqueexperience that you couldn't necessarily
have just planned out or I'll take anotherroute like, oh, I haven't been down
this, haven't been down this road before.
Let's let's see, let's see where it goes.
Lauren Best (08:44):
Yeah.
And I, I like that because it'skind of like, don't get me wrong.
I love the rambunctious energy too.
Mm-hmm but I like that becauseit's like a small, manageable
type of mm-hmm type of chaotic.
Good.
You know, like it's, it's choosing this,this small bit of play, but I think
there's also something to be said for.
Kind of creating a sandbox for yourselfor whether that's a certain amount of
(09:07):
time that, uh, you know, you're gonnagive yourself a lot more freedom to play
or whether that's a certain energy, likecoming at things with that, um, that, you
know, as you're saying that, that kindof puppy wrestling vibe, like either
that or a different, um, Like, I thinksometimes it's the energy we come at.
(09:28):
We, we come to things with right.
And, and, and how, how we'reframing our experience with
that, that kind of intention.
And mm-hmm . And sometimes it's amatter of like giving ourself a chance
to laugh and, and to, to, to fail andto, to, to learn, um, in these, these
ways that are maybe broader than,than the path that we would plan out.
Steve Treseler (09:52):
Hmm.
. Yeah.
And I find that the, this playfulelement, it can be disarming for people.
That like are more inviting andit's not necessarily that we have
to do, you know, taking the edge offat having to be really, you know,
really serious or really precious.
And they use that a lot in my, in myteaching, uh, a story that comes to mind.
(10:15):
I was teaching at a, itwas in a middle school.
I was doing some saxophonecoaching and I walked by.
The brass sectional and the,the tuba players who plays
in, you know, orchestras.
And if he's leading this brass groupand he saw me and he like waved
me in, he's like, Hey, I'm tryingto teach these guys to improvise.
We're doing a, a brass band song.
And we teach him the grooveand then trying to get them to
(10:36):
improvise a little bit, teachingthem a blue scale or something.
And there's this Frenchhorn player sitting there.
He's crosses his arm.
And he looks at me and he'slike, I am not playing a solo.
I am not improvising.
I was like, we're not improvising here.
We're just gonna play thequestion, answer game.
He's like, oh, You know, so like you'regonna play a phrase that goes up and then,
you know, your friend here is gonna play.
It goes down.
I got them just playingconversations, back and forth.
And then I let him know that Itricked him into, into improvising.
(10:59):
But as soon as it's the game, same thing.
When I go in and do those classes, I don'twant someone to say, Steve's coming in.
He will teach you all how to improvise.
I'm like, no, we're just, we're playinga game or we're messing around and we're
gonna, what would happen if we do this,getting into the experimentation side and
there can be a lot of novelty involved.
uh, which might seem silly, but it getspeople to take some of those risks to be
(11:24):
spontaneous and expressive and listen, andinteract and interact with other people
and what they're hearing mm-hmm . And thenthat can pivot to some more listening and,
or just more intensive kind of activitiesthat might not have the silliness,
but you feel more comfortable with theprocess and with, and with the people.
So I find it to be super.
(11:45):
Super effective as a teaching tool and asa learning, learning tool tool for myself
. Lauren Best: Yeah.
And it's a little different whenthere's other people like it can
be well, especially because youdon't know what your play partners
mm-hmm experience is, right?
Like it kind of creates more of thatunknown and more of that novelty because
you're, uh, or especially in a group.
(12:07):
Um, and you know, and yousee other people laughing.
And so it's easier to, I think, disarmourselves mm-hmm and to kind of,
uh, try to control the situation lessand enter into some different ways of
thinking and ways of being where welet we let ourselves be in the game.
And whether we're being in the game askind of with the feeling of a leader
(12:28):
or the feeling of a follower or thefeeling of being a little bit competitive
or the feeling of being like verycooperative, it can, it can kind of.
Lend taking things tosome different places.
I really like playing solo.
Like I really like wandering around alonesometimes or like, you know, rolling
around on the floor and dancing and stuffand, and kind of doing some of that stuff.
(12:51):
Totally, totally on my own.
But it's a different thing thanwhen, than when you're able to, to
bounce ideas off of other people.
And I'm just constantly inspiredby children and animals and seeing
the, the funny things they do.
And then like seeing what someof those templates are of, well,
either like taking turns, right.
Turn taking on its own,becomes a structure for play.
(13:12):
Um, and other things I reallytranslate to music around,
you know, turn taking, but alsocopying, you know, like kind of
matching each other in energy or in bodylanguage or deliberately contrasting.
Like in some of these elements of playthat I, I just love observing what, what
(13:33):
young kids do or, or animals I saw, Isaw a bird harassing another bird and
it was , you know, doing these very likefunny little motions of flying up at
the bird and like like dropping down.
Um, and you know, that was just somethingI saw way up high in a tree, but it was
such clear, funny little moment that,um, Like taking something like that.
(13:55):
Could, you know, you could base a wholegame off of that or a whole, a whole,
um, a whole musical concept off ofjust this one little observed moment.
I find getting outsideof my own human brain,
mm-hmm and, and well, I'm observing withmy human brain, but you know what I mean?
Like taking inspiration from how otherpeople play rather than being like,
I need to be the source of the playmm-hmm being like, oh, I'll just,
(14:17):
I'll just pretend I'm that bird orI'll pretend I'm that baby , you know?
Mm.
Yeah.
And when we get into that mode with our,with our art, that we can be playful, not
that it's not important or not seriousor, or trivial, but being in the play in
the playful mode, we can start to feelsafer about, you know, generating more
and getting into the experimentationthat we were talking about earlier.
And it's just a much better frameof mind to be in rather than like,
(14:43):
oh, this has to be, you know, I needto make something good right now.
Or, you know, getting allthese other expectations or.
Lauren Best (14:50):
Well, and yeah, the frame of mind and the mindset, like,
like, I think we all have a sense oflike what kinds of attitudes result
in, in, in play that tends to be moreor less successful for us as people.
Like, you know, we, we know that ifwe, if we drag our feet, showing up to
the park and kind of hang our head and.
(15:11):
You know, whine our way through ourpark experience, we might not have
as many kids wanting to play with us.
Right.
Like, we've seen that.
And I mean, some kids have dayslike that at the park anyways.
Right.
Mm-hmm but like that's a really,kind of easy to understand thing,
but I think sometimes as adults, wecan be, uh, nervous about our own
creativity and sometimes approach itwith like a sense of anxiousness or
(15:34):
a sense of like dragging your feet alittle or getting down on ourselves.
And I think thinking of it as play,lets us think of like, how do I wanna
be entering into this playful realm?
And um, like there are times wherewe take ourselves very seriously
in play, but I think being inplay helps us take ourselves less
seriously overall in a good way.
(15:55):
Like, you know, like we canrespect ourselves still without
necessarily like being in our heads.
mm-hmm , you know?
Steve Treseler (16:04):
Absolutely.
And yeah, some, I mean, I've seen itwith some of my music students too.
Some that became the most highlyskilled players and some had gone
on to be professional players whenthey were young, they were just,
you couldn't take the horn out.
They were just playing and playingand playing and they weren't
being super disciplined about it.
Sometimes I'd run like, well now,now you need to do this exercise or
make sure you articulate properly.
And now I'm more likely to justkinda let 'em go for a while.
(16:25):
Yeah.
Cause they're just working things outand playing and playing and it didn't
seem, it didn't seem like work, althoughthey were developing the skills.
I mean, to some degree when I was youngertoo, I just liked playing my saxophone
at the, the age where I was improvedthe most probably in, in high school.
and I heard, you know, teachers, youknow, trying to tell their students to
practice more and like, well, Steve,how much did you, you know, how much did
(16:46):
you practice when you're in high school?
I'm like, I don't remember.
I just liked getting my hornout and playing, after dinner.
I'm like, I'm gonna go playsome tunes and just go.
Yeah.
And it, it felt like play andit's aligned can be very aligned
very much with skill development.
Lauren Best (17:01):
Yeah.
And sometimes too, it's like taking.
Taking those meandering approachesto skill development, you know where
like it is, it is silly sometimes,or it is chaotic sometimes.
Like I find so many kids are reallyexcited to play their instrument.
Mm-hmm but it's like alot , you know what I mean?
Like they wanna play it so much thatlike, it can be very tempting to be like,
(17:23):
That's not really music, like slow down.
Like, why don't you try somethingthat I'm showing you mm-hmm
like, you know what I mean?
To really?
And mm-hmm, , there's, there are times toreign things in for various reasons, but,
um, but sometimes by really exploring likethe intensity we can or, or, you know,
like the many ideas they have, we can.
We can work with that.
And we don't like teach kids to run or,or, I mean, we don't teach kids to run.
(17:49):
I'll just put it there.
Kids run mm-hmm cause they were, theylearned to walk and then they run mm-hmm
because like they're excited to runand we don't like put them on a track
right away and time them, you know,like they run in many different ways.
They run in silly ways.
They run like in different places.
Like, you know, we don't.
They like drill them on the type ofrunning that is the final outcome,
(18:09):
you know, we like, we let themmeander around with it, you know?
Steve Treseler (18:13):
Yeah.
They didn't have to have a gradingrubric for running in order
to teach them how to run yeah.
Lauren Best (18:17):
Yeah.
And then they, and then theyexperiment with it in, in
different ways, you know, mm-hmm
Steve Treseler (18:24):
yeah, I guess to, and finally I wanted to
yeah, pivot to another, uh, Iguess another angle on play.
This is another quote.
Steven Nachmanovitch's bookFree Play about playfulness, but
also as we're creating new work.
So, and he says there's anold Sanskrit word, Lela, which
means play richer than our word.
(18:45):
It means divine play.
The play of creation, destructionand recreation, the folding
and unfolding of the cosmos.
Lela, free and deep, is boththe delight and enjoyment of
this moment and the play of God.
It also means love.
Hm.
Uh, I,
Lauren Best (19:05):
I will always love that quote
Steve Treseler (19:06):
yeah, I was, no, I, yeah, I read it last season, too.
Kind of keep coming back to it.
So the type of play, whatever your beliefsare on the creation of the universe,
or however that happened, but justimagine, you know, I'm imagining yeah.
The, the creative force of that,that playful creation energy
of putting new works of art outinto the, out, into the world.
(19:30):
So it can have that kind of depthof, of meaning in a, you know, yeah.
Not just dogs playing at the dog park,you know, we're talking about this.
And it's could, could allbe related too, but well,
Lauren Best (19:42):
and I think of kids too, right.
And we, we lovingly nurture their playand we lovingly create space for them to
play, you know, and that like, Especiallywhen they're very, very young, right?
Like we're kind of,we're holding the space.
for them to just, just playand be creative and explore
things in different ways.
(20:02):
And I, I, um, I love the ideaof that loving energy behind it.
Mm-hmm . Like, I know I talked about, youknow, there, there can be serious play or,
or, um, you know, like a competitive play.
Like there can be different energies toit, but I love the idea of just coming
back to it being like a, a, a loving, kindof supportive energy around being playful.
Steve Treseler (20:26):
Yeah.
yeah.
Yeah.
And that's, and again, this isto wrap up, this How episode.
So this, again, this we'll get, youknow, as, as we go, we'll even come up
with some more, um, practical kind ofprompts and, and things you can work with.
But these first two, especiallyexperimentation and play, it's really
so much about the, the mindset thatyou're, and, and the, the way that you're
(20:48):
approaching, approaching this work,um, which may, may be different from
how you've, you know, learned, learnedskills in the past where it's can be.
Yeah, very, as, as we talkedabout very, very linear or,
or prescriptive and measured.
But yeah, embracing, gatheringdata as a scientist and skipping
(21:10):
down the sidewalk is a baby baboon
. Lauren Best: Yeah.
Yeah.
And I, I will be envisioning, skippingdown the sidewalk with my baby
baboon oh, for the rest of the dayas I go, as I go, go off and play
. Steve Treseler: Ah, well now I learned something about you, that you roll
around on the ground by yourself to play
.Lauren Best: Sometimes.
Yeah.
(21:31):
Yeah.
I feel like that's a, I feellike it's a theater thing.
Like get low, like get to the ground.
You know.
And see how, how the, thesupportiveness of the ground can.
Um, that's actually like, you know, whenyou lie down, mm-hmm, . You experience
gravity in a different way, which,you know, that sounds obvious, but
literally when we're standing, we'reworking against gravity, when we lay
(21:54):
down like our, the, the way we're ableto be supported without needing to
activate our balance in the same way.
Mm-hmm I find, um, I really appreciatethe change in perspective mm-hmm and
not only is it a, is it a, uh, an awesometool for like physical work and kind
(22:16):
of rehabilitative work around, around,um, physicality and, and stretching
and strength and, and things there.
I find that it, uh, very literally givesme a different perspective on things.
Hmm.
Sometimes it gives me a perspectiveon like, oh, maybe I need to vacuum.
Lauren Best (22:37):
Maybe I'll do the next podcast episode from the ground.
Steve Treseler (22:40):
Whoa
Lauren Best (22:43):
we'll ground ourselves.
Steve Treseler (22:44):
Yeah.
Oh, I was about to go on riff aboutthat, but that will defeat our, our
intention to keep this as a mini episode.
Lauren Best (22:51):
Yeah.
So we'll give you, we'll give you guyssome ways to play, but please tell us how
you like to, how you like to play too.
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