August 26, 2022 • 42 mins
Infinite Improvisation Podcast: adventures in music and creativity with Steve Treseler and Lauren Best. The fifth episode of a five-part series on how to improvise, exploring each of Infinite Improvisation's creative practices: Experimentation, Play, Limitations, Deep Listening, and Reflection. In this episode, we reflect about reflection and discuss how to be an ally to ourselves in the process of infinite improvisation.
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Executive Producers: Lauren Best and Steve Treseler Producer: Sam Blake Theme Song: “Cold Hammered” by Steve Treseler
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Steve Treseler (00:07):
Welcome to the Infinite Improvisation Podcast,
adventures in music and creativity.
I am Steve Treseler and joined asalways by my co-host Lauren Best
who's across the border in Canada.
Hey Lauren.
Lauren Best (00:19):
Hey, how are you today?
Steve Treseler (00:21):
Good.
How are you feeling?
Lauren Best (00:22):
I'm good.
I'm good.
Steve Treseler (00:24):
So this is our fifth and final episode in our series on "How?"
How to improvise?
Or even more broadly, how to come up withnew ideas, new musical ideas, new artistic
ideas, and what that process is about?
And we've covered experimentation,play, limitations, deep listening.
And today we'll get into reflection.
(00:47):
These are the five creativepractices of Infinite Improvisation.
So before we hit record Lauren, yousaid you were reflecting on reflection.
So what's on your mind when itcomes to reflection as a practice?
Lauren Best (01:01):
I've been thinking about how part of reflection is taking time and how
like you can't really rush reflection.
Like you can try to rush reflection.
I think it's still beneficial toreflect even just a little bit,
like, I think a rushed reflection issometimes better than no reflection.
(01:22):
And I think we can do really like bitesized reflections, or really there's
lots of different approaches to that, butthat part of reflection for me, requires
the taking of time and requires a, achange of, ideally a change of setting,
for me to really enter a different,a different brain space and to engage
(01:47):
in more, you know, diffuse thinking asopposed to more, more focused thinking.
And regardless of where I'm directingmy thoughts, or what questions I'm
asking myself, that there's kind of likethese other conditions for reflection
that I personally find helpful.
And thinking about whether, just likehow we build these into our lives.
(02:09):
Or don't in other ways.
Steve Treseler (02:11):
Yeah, absolutely.
When we're reflecting or doing somethingthat involves more lateral thinking
or making different connections,that is something that can be
hard to just grind out in a rush.
And largely, I think of this asa process that is separate from
the actual creation process.
It's very interrelated, but whenwe're reflecting, it may not be
in the moment that we're creating.
And there's a great quote from sisterCorita Kent, it's often attributed to John
(02:36):
Cage who quoted it all the time, but it'ssister Corita Kent's 10 rules for teachers
and students, which is, "Don't try tocreate and analyze at the same time.
They're different processes."
Which is interesting to think about.
And we've talked about kind of when we'rein the, in the moment and trying to be
focused on what we're creating and, andletting it be this kind of reflection
when we're reflecting on our work.
Other types of reflection as well.
(02:58):
That, yeah, it is a, it is a processthat's a little bit that can be removed
from the act of creating something.
Lauren Best (03:04):
Hmm.
Yeah and further to that, the reflectionis not the same as just like listening.
Like, you know what I mean?
Like, like listening or absorbing,like kind of taking in something.
Cause sometimes like, it's like,oh, I'm not creating, but I'm
kind of listening and taking in.
(03:26):
Like for me, that can be a partof reflection, but that a part
of reflection Is is is sort ofhas this, this internal aspect.
And so it sort of separatedfrom, from, from listening.
Steve Treseler (03:38):
Mm-hmm and the reflection can just be observing
our own reactions to things.
So we'll be talking about the processof reflection on work we've created
and listening or observing back.
But also we can just even reflect on,on art that's that really resonates
with us and really meaningfulexperiences and where things were really
(04:06):
working, where things weren't, what,what is meaningful and what's not.
And, and those kind of, thosekind of elements that help more on
the strategy side of like, whereare we, where are we going next?
What project do we want to take on next?
Or what do we want to eliminatefrom our from our, from our
pile of projects we have.
So there's that, that typeof that type of reflection.
Lauren Best (04:29):
Or even what we wanna eliminate from our
focus in the moment, right?
Like how we can't necessarily focuson everything at once or like in, in
our listening or our viewing or our,like, there is, we, we can sort of try
to take in everything at once, right?
But oftentimes we're like drawingour, our attention and our reflection
(04:50):
more deeply into one thing, whichmeans lessen to other things.
Steve Treseler (04:53):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And as we are performing.
There's certainly it's a skill to learnhow to know how to channel your focus into
the right place at, at the right time.
We just kind of let our focus go towhatever happens to catch its attention.
Sometimes our thoughts won't always goto the most helpful place performing.
Like, oh, look who justwalked in the door.
Or, oh, this went better last time.
(05:13):
Like just having that, that process ofreflection can even help us be like,
okay, well, what, what are the things tofocus on during this activity that will,
that will give the best, best results.
And one area I wanted to touch on isthe idea of reflecting on our own work.
Especially if we have created something,we have maybe recorded a practice session.
(05:38):
Or maybe more formal performingrecording session or performance, and
then listen back and reflecting in away that becomes helpful for the process
and not beating ourselves up over it.
We can have a tendency to do thislistening on edge and be like,
oh no, I hope I don't mess up.
Oh, that sounded bad.
Oh, that sounded - You know,we can get into that very hyper
(05:58):
critical mode of listening orreflecting, which isn't that helpful.
So I have, yeah, I have a listof actually some reflection
questions that can be helpful.
When listening back or reflecting back onyour work I'll go through a few of these.
(06:20):
So this can be right after, youknow, if you had a session you can
listen and reflect right after.
I'd like to let some time pass.
Like if I have a recordingsession, I wanna listen back
to what take of a piece to use.
I'll want a couple weeks to pass.
So I won't remember how I'm feeling,how I felt about it then cuz sometimes
my reactions later on can be different.
Like how did you feel before,during and after the session?
(06:43):
When was the music most compelling?
And, again, these, these aremusic focused, but you can
adapt them for any other medium.
When was the music not effective?
Why?
What surprised you and what partof the process was challenging?
(07:05):
What patterns emerged?
What changes would you make or whatchanges would make the music better?
And did you discover any materialyou'd like to explore in the future?
How has your artistry improvedover time and what did you
learn from the experience?
(07:27):
So that's a lot of them to throw outthere, but you're very focused on
something specific about like, howhave you improved over time rather than
going, oh no, where did I make a mistake?
Or, where was I not perfect?
You know, some of these directingour reflection to our work, to the
right questions, can help us breakout of hypercritical mode, maybe.
(07:48):
Some of our listeners don'texperience that, but a lot of
people, yeah, run into that.
Like avoid listening or reflectingbecause sometimes the concert felt like
it was really fun, but you don't wannalisten back to it because, oh, maybe
it wasn't as good as I thought it was.
And you know, you canget into that, that head.
Lauren Best (08:05):
Mm-hmm.
And when you mentioned what waschallenging about the process you
also mentioned the idea of waitinga little bit before listening?
So I guess, ideally you might not rememberwhat was challenging about the process,
but when you listen back, it also has afunny way of sometimes like triggering
those memories or like you may then havea different perspective, but I thought
(08:26):
to myself, like what was challengingabout the process of listening to it?
Or about like kind of approachingit or reflecting upon it, or even
instead of what was challenging.
Like even just, how did you feel?
Or what did you notice inyourself as you're listening?
(08:48):
And so like, what did younotice in your thoughts and
the contents of your thoughts?
Steve Treseler (08:52):
So you can reflect, reflect on the reflection.
Lauren Best (08:54):
Yeah.
Like what did you notice in your thoughts?
What did you notice in kind of themaybe like feelings that may not
have had like specific thoughtsassociated, but also like, did you
feel that anywhere in your body?
Like often I will have like reallyphysical sensations especially
if I'm feeling critical of myselflistening back to something.
Steve Treseler (09:15):
Hmm.
Wow.
And then you can reflect on that process.
It's like that Dr.
Seuss book with the be watcher withthe be watcher watcher, watcher,
watcher, whole, whole line of them.
Lauren Best (09:24):
But.
Well it's really true.
Like you can play back the sameshort clip and you can kind of
like separate out the different,like intake channels that you have.
Right.
So, like, what do you just see?
Even if you like, turn off the audio, butwith audio on is helpful in different way.
(09:44):
Like what are your eyes taking intrying to like, really focus on that
information and like separating thatfrom what your years are taking.
Hmm.
For example.
Steve Treseler (09:53):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I was noticing sometimes when Iwas listening back to a recording of
myself and I was getting into criticalmode, I was like at my computer and
kind of tense and listening and kindof scanning for - like defensively
listening, which isn't good.
But I was realizing when I actuallylisten to music for enjoyment, I'm
usually like taking a walk or driving.
So I started like listening backto recorders while taking a walk
and suddenly I could just feelthe flow of the music better.
(10:14):
And it got me out of just beinglike sedentary intense and
just take a walk and listen.
And that's how I was reviewingmixes from some of my records.
I couldn't hear everything, I waslistening through decent headphones,
taking a walk, it's not the best way tomaybe hear the quality of the mix, but it
just allowed me to hear the music better.
So knowing the right space for listeningand reflecting can be helpful too.
(10:36):
And for me, it's yeah, it's often outside.
Lauren Best (10:39):
I, I like that.
I find, I love taking thingsoutside, you know, you know that.
What are your thoughts on likehaving another person present
while you're reflecting?
Maybe not even the first time, butlike kind of like adding the layer of
another observer or another reflector.
And I say that both in terms oflike one, getting someone else's
(11:01):
feedback obviously is one sense of it.
But even aside from the, the content oftheir feedback or their opinion, right.
Just like having someone whereit's more of a dialogue and also
just like being seen, right?
Like even that if that person doesn'tgive any opinion, I find it's sometimes
a different experience kind of havinglike that degree of visibility, even
(11:26):
if it's just only one other person,it often feels a bit different.
And I find sometimes for myself, it can belike really challenging in those moments,
depending on the person and depending onthe nature of what I'm sharing that's felt
different at different times in my life.
But sometimes it can be helpful.
So like we kind of stick with itand to kind of like witness that.
(11:48):
What, what do you think?
Steve Treseler (11:51):
Absolutely.
It does feel differentwhen someone's there.
Just like if you're playing musicby yourself or performing for one
person, the, the dynamic and thefeel, the feel of it can be different.
And I don't do that often enoughoften it might be with like people
I'm collaborating with, we recorded,hey, let's listen back to that take.
And you know, often still in the studio,but I can't think of a time where I've
brought someone else into that process.
(12:12):
Would that be like, thatwould be an interesting thing
to experiment with for sure.
One thing that came up is when I did thatproject, one of, one of my projects with
Ingrid Jenson, Invisible Sounds, we werefilmed by this whole NPR crew and did an
interview in a live performance at theRoyal Room for Jazz Night in America.
And it was a, it was a big dealand I was self-conscious about
it, but I hadn't seen the video.
(12:33):
There was like a live premier and Iwas supposed to be there in the chat.
So I was seeing it for the first.
I had heard some of the recording and Iwas kind of in defensive, like listing,
but I was supposed to be there monitoringthe chat, but then I was getting like so
many good vibes from people and messagesfrom people all over the world and Ingrid
was there and we're talking and it waslike, it ended up feeling it was a, it
was a much better way to consume it.
'Cause there were, I mean it wasvery public, so it wouldn't be like,
(12:56):
oh, that, that didn't work, letme bury that and record it again.
It's like, nope, it's done.
It's already there.
It's already produced.
And it was a very public way of,of doing that and it's pretty cool.
Lauren Best (13:09):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It can be very intense that waywhen you're having like your own
reactions, which may seem likecounter to or like contrary to,
to feedback even or hopefully,hopefully it's in the same vein.
But you know, it's like kind of makingspace for both in kind of honoring
other people's experiences who are,like, having their own relationship
(13:32):
with that music right away, as opposedto like it totally being centered on
your own experience because you areediting it or you're gatekeeping it.
And it's like, you kind of become thislike black hole of creator and destroyer.
Right?
Like it's like, it's all about onlyyour thoughts about that piece.
Like once it's out there even morebroadly, it's a very different feeling.
Right?
Because other people are developingtheir own relationship to that.
Steve Treseler (13:54):
Yeah.
And there's, yeah, there's thisart to being detached about it.
And it's always something I'm workingon myself that we're detached.
This is very mean, you know, forsome, lots of us, we're devoting
our lives, or a good chunk ofour lives to, to this pursuit.
And, but at the same time, it's helpful tojust like observe and detach and listen.
And then if something's not working,just kind of being in problem-solving
mode, like, oh, well, what can Ichange to make this better rather than
(14:17):
like, oh, that sucks and I'm terrible.
And you know, that downwardspiral of negativity bias right?
Where our brains are justdrawn toward threats mean it's
what kept our ancestors alive.
We've we've talked, talkedabout this before, scanning
for threats and avoiding them.
But then when we do that, when we'relistening to a playback of a mix,
which, you know, rationally doesn'tmake any sense, but it still feels,
(14:39):
feels like we're being judged.
So some of those questions, I don'tremember if this was on the, the
bonus episode or not, but I got thisfrom the Bulletproof Musician, the
performance psychology class had somequestions to ask about the process
that help combat negativity bias.
And they're built into someof those reflection questions.
Oh, with those questions, by theway, they are in the, the forthcoming
Infinite Improvisation Handbook.
(15:02):
So if you sign up for our mailinglist at infiniteimprovisation.com,
that will come to you as soon as it'sready, will come to you for free.
And so back to those, those questionsare to combat the negativity bias.
And I do this with students all the time.
They go, oh, how do your performance go?
And they're like, I came in earlyin one spot or I had one squeak.
And then that colors theirwhole perception of it.
And yeah, sometimes if somethingdidn't go how you want it
(15:25):
you'll want to correct that.
But it actually does a disserviceto the music when all you remember
is the, the one negative thing.
So the questions are what issomething that went really well?
And what is something that has improved?
And what is somethingthat took lots of effort?
So I've been doing this with my, my wife,Kate, creates a lot of arts and crafts.
(15:53):
She knits and does fiber artand stain glass and all this.
And if she's worried about a collectionof something or getting in her head,
she doesn't always love it, but thenlike I ask these same questions to help
break out of the, the negativity bias.
And then you start to track.
It's like, what's something thatwhat's going well, what are you?
What took effort and what's improving.?
(16:14):
Then you're kind of mapping theprogress and not just mapping the, you
know, the blemish or what didn't work.
Just saying where our attention, whereyour brain is naturally drawn to.
If you don't, if you don't direct thefocus, if you just let it go somewhere.
Sometimes it goes somewhere nothelpful as I mentioned earlier.
Lauren Best (16:34):
Yeah.
And sometimes too, we can have a lotof sort of superficial conversations
about a performance or an achievement.
And not that that's a like fundamentallya bad thing or, or whatever, but like
there's, often like, oh, how did it go?
Oh, that's so great.
Oh, you must be so happy or like,oh, your parents are so proud.
Wow.
It's so amazing.
(16:55):
Or like, whatever.
Right.
Steve Treseler (16:56):
You did that voice so well.
Lauren Best (16:59):
Or, I mean, even if it's, I mean, don't get me wrong.
Like positive feedback is good.
Yeah.
But even if it's only on thelevel of like, oh, how did it go?
Great.
Yeah.
Like that's such a small sliceof an experience, you know?
That like, we're hopefully trying tohave more nuance about, but it's just
not always the time or place to havethat more nuanced discussion, right?
Like someone who's just asking youhow something went, like it's not
(17:23):
always the moment where they evenlike, understand the things you're
reflecting upon that you wanna improve.
So I think like creating that spacein our brains, I think also helps us,
appreciate the positive feedback morebecause, we have this balance of having
time to reflect upon it as well, ina way that's like more authentic to
(17:44):
us maybe, or more like, not just moreauthentic to us, that speaks to a
greater range of, of our experience.
And what's important to us.
Steve Treseler (17:51):
Mm-hmm yeah.
When you get that, oh,how did the concert go?
You know, it's very nice.
It's an equivalent of, youknow, how how's it going?
That kind of question.
Yeah.
Where you're not probably gonna peelback all the layers in that moment.
Maybe you'll get there.
And when we bring other people in thatcould be another topic for a conversation
about who to, when to take feedback andwho to take constructive feedback from
(18:13):
and we can get caught up that that'ssomething, whereas if we're post this
podcast and then suddenly we take toheart any, you know, negative comment
that shows up online, then try to.
Someone's trolling us.
And then do we reformat thepodcast to take in that feedback?
The comment section?
Well, of course not, that's, that'ssilly, and some people know what they
like, but not why they like it, or theymight not be, you know, the right kind
(18:37):
of audience for what you're bringing.
So it's like who, if you wanna bringsomeone into that reflection experience
and get the, get constructive andhelpful feedback from people who, who
are the right folks to take it from?
Cause I would argue that you wanna curatewho you take, who you take feedback from.
If a random person after a show goes,oh, can I give you a piece of advice?
(18:58):
I'm like, no, thanks.
Not that I'm in denial, but I, you know,you're, you're not on my list of people
who I need your feedback right now.
And it might not, might not be helpful.
Lauren Best (19:08):
Yeah.
And I mean, like when we think of evenjust our own perspective and our own
feedback, depending on what lens we'relooking at, something, we can have
really different opinions of it, right?
Depending on kind of the anglewe're looking at it, or even like
the, just the day or how we'refeeling, but also like just the
way in which we're considering it.
And likewise, everyone that we talk tois going to have like a variability in
(19:32):
like how they might consider something,depending on like, kind of the angle
they're thinking about it in the day.
But then like beyond that, likenot everyone loves the same
flavor of ice cream, you know?
Like you're not gonna be everyone'sfavorite flavor of ice cream.
So it's like ice cream, right?
Like if you take the same ice creamsample, which will be melted by now , I
(19:55):
should have picked a different food.
But you know what I mean, to like abunch of different people, like you're
going to get different opinions on it.
And it doesn't necessarily mean thatlike the ice cream you've chosen is.
Like it is all those thingsto all those different people.
Some people like it, some peopledon't, some people will have, you
know, say certain things about it,but you know, you gotta decide what,
(20:17):
what you think about the ice cream.
Steve Treseler (20:20):
Yeah and knowing who that audience is, it is
probably not gonna be for everyone.
What you're creating isn't gonna be likethe tide laundry detergent of music.
Same thing with, with our, you know,using the podcast, as an example, if
we played this for someone who only.
Likes listening to sports talk onpodcasts, you know, they're probably not
gonna like this podcast, but that, youknow, how meaningful is that feedback?
(20:40):
It's not the right, you know, it's notthe audience that we're choosing for it.
Lauren Best (20:46):
And I still encourage, like, I still, I think it's still
valuable to get feedback from peoplewhose - what I was gonna say is
from people who dunno what they'retalking about and whose opinions you
don't value, as highly as others,but just because like, like sometimes
you're gonna get feedback like that.
Right?
Like, someone's going to comment onpistachio ice cream who like doesn't
(21:09):
really has never tasted it beforeand they don't particularly like it.
Whereas you're making pistachio icecream for the pistachio ice cream
lovers, you know, and like, I don't know.
I, I I think for me, like sometimes it'svery frustrating and discouraging at
the time to get that kind of feedback.
But I find it helps me take allfeedback in like with a grain of salt
(21:33):
or with a greater sense of perspective.
Steve Treseler (21:35):
Mm-hmm yeah.
And you can learn something from that,but also like, being able to curate
it, or you might take it all in.
If you're reading a bunch of,you know, comments section is
a good place to mention it.
So some people know that they take it to,I know some people that they might read
it and really take everything personally.
And they know that in which caseit can be good to just block it
out and only seek out the feedbackthat's going to be most helpful.
(21:58):
But otherwise, yeah, you can takein all of it, but you have to know,
have the discernment to know what'slike, oh, that's a, that is a good,
constructive idea that we can, thatwe can take to make our work better
in the future versus what's noise.
Lauren Best (22:12):
Yeah, totally.
And it's like, you know, things that it'skind of like things that are challenging
versus things that in, in a good way and,and maybe stretching or strengthening
versus things that just wear you down.
Steve Treseler (22:23):
Totally.
But in the reflection side,I also like thinking about
reflecting on other models too.
Not, we don't have to get,not just getting too stuck in.
Listing and observing your own things,but having these really clear models
of music or art that's like reallydeeply resonates with you and then have
the reflection feel like, why is it?
(22:44):
What is it specifically like,what is it the elements of this?
Is it the lyrics?
Is it the timbre?
Is it the, the quality?
Is it the, the technical execution orlike, what is it specifically about
something that's really meaningful?
And what even reflectingon those elements.
And I even have likenotebooks filled with that.
Just even some different musical elements.
Like here's some differentrhythmic components of music
(23:06):
that really gel with me.
And then here's timbre and form andinstrument, like all these things
that have been sort of the sketchesfor other music I'm working on.
So really re reflecting on it'slike, what's really meaningful.
And why, or how about something elsethat, you know, the craft is really
amazing, but it's not your thing.
It just doesn't doesn't do it for you.
Like why you reflect on what, whatis it about that is meaningful
(23:30):
for you and what is not.
And from your own body of work of, ofstuff that you've done, it reflected too.
I've recorded certain things that arestill meaningful to me to listen to.
And other things that may havegotten whatever, a better review,
but I listen back and, you know,it doesn't do as much for me.
So that that can be quite insightfulagain for the strategy or the directions,
(23:52):
like, well, what, what am I doing next?
And those kind of questionsof knowing what the models are
and, and where you're headed.
That can be really enlightening.
Lauren Best (24:01):
Noticing, like, as you're saying, like the push
pull and I think that like itcan be, I think it can be a why?
Like, why is it that I like this?
Or I don't like this?
You know, but it can also just be,oh, I'll just notice, like the moments
(24:23):
within the piece that I feel likeI want more, like I'm drawn to it.
It's sticky or it's yummy.
Or like, I want that versus likemoments that I feel like I'm pulling
away or like I'm not as interested or,or I'm feeling like I'm shutting down.
Or like, you know, you can think of itin other ways, instead of like a push
pull you could think of, well I mean,there may be things that already suggest
(24:48):
like tension or resolution, but likekind of other, other opposites as well.
But also the, like the whys too.
You know, I'm a fan of thinking likeof, of like teasing it out, but kind
of also just like, sort of noticingand like increasing the amount of
noticing as well without conclusions.
Steve Treseler (25:13):
Yeah and that, you mentioned that reminds me of, it was a
composition exercise, and I heard thissecond hand, so any of you folks let me
know if I get this wrong, I believe itcame from the late Lee Hilo, a composition
professor at the school I went to, and heasked one of the first things you do in
lessons or in a class was find like yourfavorite moment in the piece of music.
Like just that transcendent moment whereyou talk about everything lines up and
(25:36):
then you go back and deeply analyzethe thirty seconds leading up to that.
Like in every possible way thatyou can do some musical analysis
and figure out what is it aboutthat that will, how does it set up?
That moment.
Is what you were talking about, thattension and release, is that those,
those moments that are amazing, is itthat moment itself or is it the context
or how it leads, how it leads into that?
(26:00):
And, yeah, and I know at a time, Ithink it was about that time when I
was at music school time, just workinga lot on the craft of the music and
worried about virtuosity and people who,you know, playing higher and faster.
Then there was time I starting to kindof go back and listening to pop music
and songwriters and I found that therewas certain music, or certain like
tambers of people's voice, right here,and it just sucked me all the way in.
(26:21):
I was like, wow, I'm just likeaddicted to some of these sounds.
And I'm like, well, there's nothingthat, and I remember things like, well,
this isn't virtuosic or impressive orthe best, but it's just super amazing.
Like why?
Why is it?
Why am I drawn drawn to this?
Like, what, what is the aesthetic orthe other values of this music, which is
different from what we've been doing inmusic school, nerdland, just diving into
(26:45):
all the, the mechanics and practicingand all of that, but that's, yeah,
that type of reflection can be yeah.
Super, super helpfulin the, in the journey.
Lauren Best (26:57):
Cool.
Yeah.
And that, that like reflection.
I'm just thinking about the, therelationship between memory and reflection
and just the point that reflectinghelps us remember things better.
So even if you're not gaining likeinsight from reflection, it's still
(27:19):
making whatever you did more - I wasgonna say more worthwhile, but what I
mean by that is it's taking whatever youdid and kind of strengthening the neural
pathways, the, the networks in your mind.
So that like the time you spentdoing that, you're kind of getting
a more lasting effect from.
And so even if the reflection isn't like,oh, I'm having all these deep insights,
(27:43):
like, or like I realized something or likeit's, you know, it doesn't necessarily
even have to be something novel.
Reflection kind of as review, so tospeak, like without consciously adding
on a lot of things is also valuable.
And will I think help yoursubconscious work at those things too.
(28:05):
But just, just on the level that,like, we will remember the experience
more particularly when we reflectkind of very shortly afterwards and
then, and then again, after that.
Steve Treseler (28:17):
Yeah, then it's more likely to get into long storage, the
experience, rather than a fleetingmoment that, that it just goes away.
Lauren Best (28:25):
Yeah.
Oh, and, and so, and so, and regardingthat, is that like, kind of, that's
another variable we can adjust with howwe're reflecting is like reflecting upon
something only with our memory of it.
Right?
Versus like, like reflecting and thenlistening back to something you haven't
heard and then reflecting again.
(28:47):
And also even within the listeningprocess, like, how much we listen to
and how much we can actually rememberand keep in our minds and respond
to like in a conversation, right?
Like if I say one sentence and thenask you to respond, you remember
what I said in a certain way and youremember the, probably if it's short
(29:07):
enough sentence, you might rememberalmost word for word what I said.
Right?
And really be able to keep everythingin the front of your mind that I was
talking about and even keep my energyand intonation and kind of the feeling
I had kind of really present with you.
Whereas, if I do what I'm doing rightnow and say a whole bunch of things that
has like a, you know, there's a lot goingon and there's like, kind of like a I'm
(29:30):
I'm going through different, differentkind of energies within it even, right?
That's a lot more to reflect upon,like, and you're gonna have a
different memory of what I'm doing.
And a different kind ofreflective experience.
Steve Treseler (29:44):
That would be hard.
That would be a hard few paragraphsto repeat back, but thankfully
we're we're recording, then we'regonna get a transcript of it
so we can then we can go back.
Lauren Best (29:57):
Then then we can truly reflect.
Yeah.
But, but I often like mentionthis to students of mine.
I'll be like, don't play forfive minutes and then listen
back and try to analyze it.
Like try like thirty seconds or fiveseconds, like, like start with really
short clips so that like, you can actuallyremember what you did and like really
(30:18):
listen to what you did, because if yousit through five minutes of yourself and
then you're trying to reflect on that,that's a huge amount of information.
Steve Treseler (30:24):
Absolutely.
So the thing I was thinking about toois how do you think that this, the,
the practice of reflection fits intothe, the category of, these are "How?"
Episodes, you know, how do we do this?
How do we improvise?
How do you see that the, the reflectionpiece fits into fits into the, how.
Lauren Best (30:42):
I think this is important, actually, 'cause I was, I was
mentioning before, like that reflection,like time, helps some reflection.
Which it is, I guess that's like beforeI was saying, oh, reflect quickly.
And like, there is somethingto be said for that too.
But that like having some time havingsome diffused thinking, sleeping,
(31:04):
like all of those things are helpful.
And I think that we don't alwaysbuild reflection into - well, I
mean, I hope we build reflectionto our creative processes.
But like, I'm thinking like there's thecreative project process, but even like
the project cycle or like a class, right?
Like often, I mean, again,like some classes do have
(31:27):
time for reflection, right?
Like, let's talk about it.
Let's reflect upon it.
Or even like time tolike write some notes.
But like some experiences don'tbuild in reflective moments or
don't build in time for that, or,you know, and so on and so forth.
So I think like we can, we canchoose to reflect and we can, I think
(31:49):
we're reflecting anyways but we canchoose to reflect and we can create
opportunities for reflection by design.
And I think it's important toremember that it it's a part of it.
Steve Treseler (32:02):
Yeah.
And I think, well, as I, I mentionedbefore, it does help with that,
you know, to take the moment and tofigure out the strategy, the next
project, or what, you know, answerthe question, what, what do I do next?
That reflection helps.
And, and also in the process oftrying to level up the skills that are
important to, to improve over time.
A thing that just came to mindthinking, listening back, was one of
(32:23):
my, I think it was my first studiosession after I, you know, finished
school and I was teaching, was startingto work professionally in Seattle.
And I was recording a demo for afriend's band that I was playing it.
And I hadn't really been ina recording studio before and
I hadn't been listening back.
I hadn't been doing a lot of reflection.
It was kind of that avoidance, avoidinglistening back as I was talking about.
And then, you know, we're in thestudio and I, I remember the, the
(32:47):
engineers, like did he say something?
Is there a reason thesaxophone sound so throaty?
I was like, what's that supposed to mean?
And they were like, listen,I listened back to it and I
was just like, so embarrassed.
I hated everything about how itsounded, you know, I had like a
little, you know, mini or fullon, you know, artistic crisis.
Why?
How?
Why am I sounding like this and that?
But it did lead the way tolike, starting to record myself.
(33:09):
Once I got out offeeling sorry for myself.
I just didn't like how I was playing whatI was playing and I was not very kind
to myself about it, but eventually itled to even like an equipment overhaul.
I ended up changing all my equipment,dumping my mouthpiece, new saxophone.
I mean, I just changed my wholeequipment and this and concept of
sound and practicing recording.
And then by the time I gotto actually record my first
(33:31):
record, I'd done enough of it.
I knew how to shape my sound in a waythat I would like how it recorded.
And I listened back to the firstmix of my first record, even, I
was like, okay, that's the sound?
And I was like, happy with how itsounded, but it took that process
of, I kind of have to know what'sthere and not be in denial about it.
Reflect.
And it was like kindof some painful growth.
But I could have just, blinders andjust kept charging ahead without
(33:53):
taking that more thoughtful,reflective moment to like, learn
how to be better at, in this case,recording saxophone in a little room.
Lauren Best (34:04):
Totally totally.
Like we're asking ourselves to noticethings so that we can change them.
And then sometimes we're somad that we discovered things
that we wanna change, you know?
And it's like, you know, sometimesI have an outfit in mind and I put
it on and I look in the mirror andI'm like, oh no, like, it did not
(34:25):
come together the way I imagined.
Right?
And I look in the mirror and like, Ineed to make some changes and sometimes
I have to go through that process severaltimes, but I mean, it doesn't necessarily
mean that like, those clothes should beburned, although maybe sometimes like,
there's time to give some things away.
But it might just be like thatI need to adjust other things.
(34:46):
Or sometimes like, I'm just too hot.
I just don't like how it feels.
I didn't account for that.
I didn't notice that before, you know?
Sometimes I don't have to do a lotto my hair, and I usually won't
anyways, but sometimes it's likereally humid and things are different.
And it's like, just because you lookin the mirror and you wanna change
something, doesn't mean that likeit's the mirror's fault or your fault
(35:09):
or that like all is, you know, lost.
It just means that like you're gettingready and you're preparing and like you're
making adjustments because that's, that'spart of it, that's what you want to do.
Steve Treseler (35:22):
Yeah.
And, and back to episode one ofexperimentation, you have a hypothesis
about what outfit's gonna work, andthen you gather some data you're like,
maybe not, and then you make the change.
Lauren Best (35:30):
Totally.
Yeah.
And very closely related toexperimentation because like that, that
reflection so, so has to be a part of it.
And I find also like it's not always- the reflection doesn't always come
when you're expecting it, or likehelp you in the ways you're expecting.
Like sometimes we getsome surprises through it.
(35:51):
And whether that's like, as you weresaying, sometimes something that's like
really difficult, like down the line cancan turn out to be like part of you know
process that's that's really useful.
Or sometimes we just use theinformation in, in different ways.
Yeah.
Steve Treseler (36:12):
One other I guess kind of concept I wanted to get to, as we wrapped
up is sort of, this is paradox or is inthe book by George Leonard "Mastery".
So the, master's paradox, it's kindof this, this is paradox between
there being goals and also no goals.
One part of the process when we're kindof separating, creating versus analyzing.
(36:37):
I remember this, it's a principal fromthis program, like a work community like
music workshop program called The Musicfor People and one of their principles, or
what it's called is, you know, "All soundsexist in the universe with all others."
You know, there are no mistakes.
You make a sound and it is what it is, andwe're accepting of that and observing it.
(36:59):
And it's just a beautiful way ofgoing about and creating things
like we can embrace, embrace that.
And a lot of what we're doing,it's the act of creating
and being with other people.
And that just is what it is.
We're observing it, kindof that there's not a goal.
It's just the doing it.
But at the same time, we have thosethings where we do have projects.
We want to, that we want to complete,or we're trying to level up our skills
(37:22):
that there's, that we do have at the sametime, we do have goals and benchmarks
and things that we're striving for thatwere growing that were not stagnating.
And one way that he talks about this inthe book, the, the quote is, "The trick
here is to walk the fine line betweenendless goalless practice and those
alluring goals that appear along theway, but the journey is what counts."
(37:44):
Which is interesting.
So kind of being able to holdboth of those, you know, I, I
want to get better at this skill.
I want to finish this project desireto, you know, whatever kind of
goals or things you're striving for.
And sometimes you don't reach themin a certain way and that's all
part of the journey, but then alsokind of accepting all the, all the
(38:04):
sounds and, you know, everythingthat's, that's part of the process.
The, the, the misfires or mistake, or isit even a, is it even a mistake, but I
kind of like that model of holding bothof those, because they're both important.
Because if I get into the mode whereI'm very highly goal oriented, even if
I achieve the goal at a certain point, Irealize it can still feel kind of empty
if the process isn't part of it as well.
(38:28):
But I, but yeah, I can also feelthat I can get - if I'm just in, in
the moment and being, you know, opento everything, then I can tend to
be more complacent or I'm not sure.
But I, I just like just accepting thatit's a paradox and sometimes I have to
lean into one side more than the other.
Lauren Best (38:49):
Yeah.
And like it's related to likethe increasing self-awareness,
changing self-awareness.
Looking at self-awareness like the,at yourself and your practice from
different angles and like kind ofincreasing your capacity for that.
And then also the liketurning off the self monitor.
And it's like, well, which do I do?
(39:11):
Do I pay attention to myself evenmore so that I can notice these things
so I can reflect on these things.
So I play more slowly and I am moreaware and more mindful or do I, you
know, try to go the direction of havingless self monitoring and not being
critical and like these other things.
And it it's, as you're saying,it's a bit of both and in different
(39:34):
situations for different reasons.
Or, or some people refer like, likeI've seen before it talked about
that creativity is like findingthe balance between absolute
narcissism and crippling self doubt.
And then if you strike a line,like perfectly down the middle,
then you can make things
. Steve Treseler: Yeah.
And I've heard some of things forinstance, like internet bandwidth,
(39:57):
like your upload and download, like,you can't be, I can't be uploading
all of these videos and downloadingmovies at the same time, my
internet connection won't handle it.
So you've got some upload and download.
So I, I may have referenced this beforein terms of when you're creating, even
you're having a conversation or makingmusic together, you're listening, you're
being receptive to what you're hearing.
And then also thinking about what you'regonna say or what you're gonna play next.
(40:17):
So you're uploading, you're uploadingmaterial and you're downloading it,
but you can't do all of it at once.
So where do you.
You know, what, how muchdo you, do you focus on?
And, and oftentimes I'm finding, Ineed to be downloading a lot more than
I'm uploading through the, through thesaxophone and getting myself more in that.
But if I'm totally listening and beingvery receptive and only listening, then
(40:40):
if I go too far that way, and I'm notin the moment then I stop contributing.
I become passive.
So it's a it's an interesting way.
Yeah.
It's related to flow states too.
Like anything that's likely to produce aflow state, if you miss the flow state is
going to be frustrating or boring, right?
Like, like if you, so it's like thingsthat have the potential to, to put
(41:04):
us in like incredible flow states.
Also have the potential to be sodifficult that they're incredibly
frustrating and discouraging, right?
So the it's like it is a tradeoff , you know, we we're, we're not
ever gonna constantly be in a flowstate for the rest of our lives.
But like we can work with the conditionsthat take us in and out of that.
Steve Treseler (41:27):
Yeah.
That has its own cycle too.
That's that's an upcoming episodeon flow states, but I've heard
yeah, somewhere, totally splits themarker between boredom and anxiety.
And if you're like exactly in the middle,then you're in a flow state or being in
the, in the zone and supremely focused.
But let's I think we'll leave thatfor, leave that for another day.
Lauren Best (41:48):
For another, another day.
Another episode.
Steve Treseler (41:50):
Yeah.
And any, anything else you weredying to say on this that we
didn't get to before we wrap it up?
Lauren Best (41:55):
Well, I'll have to reflect on it more and, and maybe, maybe our
listeners have some reflections oftheir own to, to share about this.
Steve Treseler (42:05):
Yeah.
So, yeah, connect, connect with us atinfiniteimprovisation.com/podcast and
you can join our online community.
You can also shoot us an email and besure to subscribe on your favorite podcast
platform and we're up on YouTube as well.
So you can watch us havethese conversations.
If you like subscribe to our YouTubechannel, Infinite Improvisation.
Lauren Best (42:25):
Until next time!
Welcome to the Infinite Improvisation Podcast,
adventures in music and creativity.
I am Steve Treseler and joined asalways by my co-host Lauren Best
who's across the border in Canada.
Hey Lauren.
Lauren Best (00:19):
Hey, how are you today?
Steve Treseler (00:21):
Good.
How are you feeling?
Lauren Best (00:22):
I'm good.
I'm good.
Steve Treseler (00:24):
So this is our fifth and final episode in our series on "How?"
How to improvise?
Or even more broadly, how to come up withnew ideas, new musical ideas, new artistic
ideas, and what that process is about?
And we've covered experimentation,play, limitations, deep listening.
And today we'll get into reflection.
(00:47):
These are the five creativepractices of Infinite Improvisation.
So before we hit record Lauren, yousaid you were reflecting on reflection.
So what's on your mind when itcomes to reflection as a practice?
Lauren Best (01:01):
I've been thinking about how part of reflection is taking time and how
like you can't really rush reflection.
Like you can try to rush reflection.
I think it's still beneficial toreflect even just a little bit,
like, I think a rushed reflection issometimes better than no reflection.
(01:22):
And I think we can do really like bitesized reflections, or really there's
lots of different approaches to that, butthat part of reflection for me, requires
the taking of time and requires a, achange of, ideally a change of setting,
for me to really enter a different,a different brain space and to engage
(01:47):
in more, you know, diffuse thinking asopposed to more, more focused thinking.
And regardless of where I'm directingmy thoughts, or what questions I'm
asking myself, that there's kind of likethese other conditions for reflection
that I personally find helpful.
And thinking about whether, just likehow we build these into our lives.
(02:09):
Or don't in other ways.
Steve Treseler (02:11):
Yeah, absolutely.
When we're reflecting or doing somethingthat involves more lateral thinking
or making different connections,that is something that can be
hard to just grind out in a rush.
And largely, I think of this asa process that is separate from
the actual creation process.
It's very interrelated, but whenwe're reflecting, it may not be
in the moment that we're creating.
And there's a great quote from sisterCorita Kent, it's often attributed to John
(02:36):
Cage who quoted it all the time, but it'ssister Corita Kent's 10 rules for teachers
and students, which is, "Don't try tocreate and analyze at the same time.
They're different processes."
Which is interesting to think about.
And we've talked about kind of when we'rein the, in the moment and trying to be
focused on what we're creating and, andletting it be this kind of reflection
when we're reflecting on our work.
Other types of reflection as well.
(02:58):
That, yeah, it is a, it is a processthat's a little bit that can be removed
from the act of creating something.
Lauren Best (03:04):
Hmm.
Yeah and further to that, the reflectionis not the same as just like listening.
Like, you know what I mean?
Like, like listening or absorbing,like kind of taking in something.
Cause sometimes like, it's like,oh, I'm not creating, but I'm
kind of listening and taking in.
(03:26):
Like for me, that can be a partof reflection, but that a part
of reflection Is is is sort ofhas this, this internal aspect.
And so it sort of separatedfrom, from, from listening.
Steve Treseler (03:38):
Mm-hmm and the reflection can just be observing
our own reactions to things.
So we'll be talking about the processof reflection on work we've created
and listening or observing back.
But also we can just even reflect on,on art that's that really resonates
with us and really meaningfulexperiences and where things were really
(04:06):
working, where things weren't, what,what is meaningful and what's not.
And, and those kind of, thosekind of elements that help more on
the strategy side of like, whereare we, where are we going next?
What project do we want to take on next?
Or what do we want to eliminatefrom our from our, from our
pile of projects we have.
So there's that, that typeof that type of reflection.
Lauren Best (04:29):
Or even what we wanna eliminate from our
focus in the moment, right?
Like how we can't necessarily focuson everything at once or like in, in
our listening or our viewing or our,like, there is, we, we can sort of try
to take in everything at once, right?
But oftentimes we're like drawingour, our attention and our reflection
(04:50):
more deeply into one thing, whichmeans lessen to other things.
Steve Treseler (04:53):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And as we are performing.
There's certainly it's a skill to learnhow to know how to channel your focus into
the right place at, at the right time.
We just kind of let our focus go towhatever happens to catch its attention.
Sometimes our thoughts won't always goto the most helpful place performing.
Like, oh, look who justwalked in the door.
Or, oh, this went better last time.
(05:13):
Like just having that, that process ofreflection can even help us be like,
okay, well, what, what are the things tofocus on during this activity that will,
that will give the best, best results.
And one area I wanted to touch on isthe idea of reflecting on our own work.
Especially if we have created something,we have maybe recorded a practice session.
(05:38):
Or maybe more formal performingrecording session or performance, and
then listen back and reflecting in away that becomes helpful for the process
and not beating ourselves up over it.
We can have a tendency to do thislistening on edge and be like,
oh no, I hope I don't mess up.
Oh, that sounded bad.
Oh, that sounded - You know,we can get into that very hyper
(05:58):
critical mode of listening orreflecting, which isn't that helpful.
So I have, yeah, I have a listof actually some reflection
questions that can be helpful.
When listening back or reflecting back onyour work I'll go through a few of these.
(06:20):
So this can be right after, youknow, if you had a session you can
listen and reflect right after.
I'd like to let some time pass.
Like if I have a recordingsession, I wanna listen back
to what take of a piece to use.
I'll want a couple weeks to pass.
So I won't remember how I'm feeling,how I felt about it then cuz sometimes
my reactions later on can be different.
Like how did you feel before,during and after the session?
(06:43):
When was the music most compelling?
And, again, these, these aremusic focused, but you can
adapt them for any other medium.
When was the music not effective?
Why?
What surprised you and what partof the process was challenging?
(07:05):
What patterns emerged?
What changes would you make or whatchanges would make the music better?
And did you discover any materialyou'd like to explore in the future?
How has your artistry improvedover time and what did you
learn from the experience?
(07:27):
So that's a lot of them to throw outthere, but you're very focused on
something specific about like, howhave you improved over time rather than
going, oh no, where did I make a mistake?
Or, where was I not perfect?
You know, some of these directingour reflection to our work, to the
right questions, can help us breakout of hypercritical mode, maybe.
(07:48):
Some of our listeners don'texperience that, but a lot of
people, yeah, run into that.
Like avoid listening or reflectingbecause sometimes the concert felt like
it was really fun, but you don't wannalisten back to it because, oh, maybe
it wasn't as good as I thought it was.
And you know, you canget into that, that head.
Lauren Best (08:05):
Mm-hmm.
And when you mentioned what waschallenging about the process you
also mentioned the idea of waitinga little bit before listening?
So I guess, ideally you might not rememberwhat was challenging about the process,
but when you listen back, it also has afunny way of sometimes like triggering
those memories or like you may then havea different perspective, but I thought
(08:26):
to myself, like what was challengingabout the process of listening to it?
Or about like kind of approachingit or reflecting upon it, or even
instead of what was challenging.
Like even just, how did you feel?
Or what did you notice inyourself as you're listening?
(08:48):
And so like, what did younotice in your thoughts and
the contents of your thoughts?
Steve Treseler (08:52):
So you can reflect, reflect on the reflection.
Lauren Best (08:54):
Yeah.
Like what did you notice in your thoughts?
What did you notice in kind of themaybe like feelings that may not
have had like specific thoughtsassociated, but also like, did you
feel that anywhere in your body?
Like often I will have like reallyphysical sensations especially
if I'm feeling critical of myselflistening back to something.
Steve Treseler (09:15):
Hmm.
Wow.
And then you can reflect on that process.
It's like that Dr.
Seuss book with the be watcher withthe be watcher watcher, watcher,
watcher, whole, whole line of them.
Lauren Best (09:24):
But.
Well it's really true.
Like you can play back the sameshort clip and you can kind of
like separate out the different,like intake channels that you have.
Right.
So, like, what do you just see?
Even if you like, turn off the audio, butwith audio on is helpful in different way.
(09:44):
Like what are your eyes taking intrying to like, really focus on that
information and like separating thatfrom what your years are taking.
Hmm.
For example.
Steve Treseler (09:53):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I was noticing sometimes when Iwas listening back to a recording of
myself and I was getting into criticalmode, I was like at my computer and
kind of tense and listening and kindof scanning for - like defensively
listening, which isn't good.
But I was realizing when I actuallylisten to music for enjoyment, I'm
usually like taking a walk or driving.
So I started like listening backto recorders while taking a walk
and suddenly I could just feelthe flow of the music better.
(10:14):
And it got me out of just beinglike sedentary intense and
just take a walk and listen.
And that's how I was reviewingmixes from some of my records.
I couldn't hear everything, I waslistening through decent headphones,
taking a walk, it's not the best way tomaybe hear the quality of the mix, but it
just allowed me to hear the music better.
So knowing the right space for listeningand reflecting can be helpful too.
(10:36):
And for me, it's yeah, it's often outside.
Lauren Best (10:39):
I, I like that.
I find, I love taking thingsoutside, you know, you know that.
What are your thoughts on likehaving another person present
while you're reflecting?
Maybe not even the first time, butlike kind of like adding the layer of
another observer or another reflector.
And I say that both in terms oflike one, getting someone else's
(11:01):
feedback obviously is one sense of it.
But even aside from the, the content oftheir feedback or their opinion, right.
Just like having someone whereit's more of a dialogue and also
just like being seen, right?
Like even that if that person doesn'tgive any opinion, I find it's sometimes
a different experience kind of havinglike that degree of visibility, even
(11:26):
if it's just only one other person,it often feels a bit different.
And I find sometimes for myself, it can belike really challenging in those moments,
depending on the person and depending onthe nature of what I'm sharing that's felt
different at different times in my life.
But sometimes it can be helpful.
So like we kind of stick with itand to kind of like witness that.
(11:48):
What, what do you think?
Steve Treseler (11:51):
Absolutely.
It does feel differentwhen someone's there.
Just like if you're playing musicby yourself or performing for one
person, the, the dynamic and thefeel, the feel of it can be different.
And I don't do that often enoughoften it might be with like people
I'm collaborating with, we recorded,hey, let's listen back to that take.
And you know, often still in the studio,but I can't think of a time where I've
brought someone else into that process.
(12:12):
Would that be like, thatwould be an interesting thing
to experiment with for sure.
One thing that came up is when I did thatproject, one of, one of my projects with
Ingrid Jenson, Invisible Sounds, we werefilmed by this whole NPR crew and did an
interview in a live performance at theRoyal Room for Jazz Night in America.
And it was a, it was a big dealand I was self-conscious about
it, but I hadn't seen the video.
(12:33):
There was like a live premier and Iwas supposed to be there in the chat.
So I was seeing it for the first.
I had heard some of the recording and Iwas kind of in defensive, like listing,
but I was supposed to be there monitoringthe chat, but then I was getting like so
many good vibes from people and messagesfrom people all over the world and Ingrid
was there and we're talking and it waslike, it ended up feeling it was a, it
was a much better way to consume it.
'Cause there were, I mean it wasvery public, so it wouldn't be like,
(12:56):
oh, that, that didn't work, letme bury that and record it again.
It's like, nope, it's done.
It's already there.
It's already produced.
And it was a very public way of,of doing that and it's pretty cool.
Lauren Best (13:09):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It can be very intense that waywhen you're having like your own
reactions, which may seem likecounter to or like contrary to,
to feedback even or hopefully,hopefully it's in the same vein.
But you know, it's like kind of makingspace for both in kind of honoring
other people's experiences who are,like, having their own relationship
(13:32):
with that music right away, as opposedto like it totally being centered on
your own experience because you areediting it or you're gatekeeping it.
And it's like, you kind of become thislike black hole of creator and destroyer.
Right?
Like it's like, it's all about onlyyour thoughts about that piece.
Like once it's out there even morebroadly, it's a very different feeling.
Right?
Because other people are developingtheir own relationship to that.
Steve Treseler (13:54):
Yeah.
And there's, yeah, there's thisart to being detached about it.
And it's always something I'm workingon myself that we're detached.
This is very mean, you know, forsome, lots of us, we're devoting
our lives, or a good chunk ofour lives to, to this pursuit.
And, but at the same time, it's helpful tojust like observe and detach and listen.
And then if something's not working,just kind of being in problem-solving
mode, like, oh, well, what can Ichange to make this better rather than
(14:17):
like, oh, that sucks and I'm terrible.
And you know, that downwardspiral of negativity bias right?
Where our brains are justdrawn toward threats mean it's
what kept our ancestors alive.
We've we've talked, talkedabout this before, scanning
for threats and avoiding them.
But then when we do that, when we'relistening to a playback of a mix,
which, you know, rationally doesn'tmake any sense, but it still feels,
(14:39):
feels like we're being judged.
So some of those questions, I don'tremember if this was on the, the
bonus episode or not, but I got thisfrom the Bulletproof Musician, the
performance psychology class had somequestions to ask about the process
that help combat negativity bias.
And they're built into someof those reflection questions.
Oh, with those questions, by theway, they are in the, the forthcoming
Infinite Improvisation Handbook.
(15:02):
So if you sign up for our mailinglist at infiniteimprovisation.com,
that will come to you as soon as it'sready, will come to you for free.
And so back to those, those questionsare to combat the negativity bias.
And I do this with students all the time.
They go, oh, how do your performance go?
And they're like, I came in earlyin one spot or I had one squeak.
And then that colors theirwhole perception of it.
And yeah, sometimes if somethingdidn't go how you want it
(15:25):
you'll want to correct that.
But it actually does a disserviceto the music when all you remember
is the, the one negative thing.
So the questions are what issomething that went really well?
And what is something that has improved?
And what is somethingthat took lots of effort?
So I've been doing this with my, my wife,Kate, creates a lot of arts and crafts.
(15:53):
She knits and does fiber artand stain glass and all this.
And if she's worried about a collectionof something or getting in her head,
she doesn't always love it, but thenlike I ask these same questions to help
break out of the, the negativity bias.
And then you start to track.
It's like, what's something thatwhat's going well, what are you?
What took effort and what's improving.?
(16:14):
Then you're kind of mapping theprogress and not just mapping the, you
know, the blemish or what didn't work.
Just saying where our attention, whereyour brain is naturally drawn to.
If you don't, if you don't direct thefocus, if you just let it go somewhere.
Sometimes it goes somewhere nothelpful as I mentioned earlier.
Lauren Best (16:34):
Yeah.
And sometimes too, we can have a lotof sort of superficial conversations
about a performance or an achievement.
And not that that's a like fundamentallya bad thing or, or whatever, but like
there's, often like, oh, how did it go?
Oh, that's so great.
Oh, you must be so happy or like,oh, your parents are so proud.
Wow.
It's so amazing.
(16:55):
Or like, whatever.
Right.
Steve Treseler (16:56):
You did that voice so well.
Lauren Best (16:59):
Or, I mean, even if it's, I mean, don't get me wrong.
Like positive feedback is good.
Yeah.
But even if it's only on thelevel of like, oh, how did it go?
Great.
Yeah.
Like that's such a small sliceof an experience, you know?
That like, we're hopefully trying tohave more nuance about, but it's just
not always the time or place to havethat more nuanced discussion, right?
Like someone who's just asking youhow something went, like it's not
(17:23):
always the moment where they evenlike, understand the things you're
reflecting upon that you wanna improve.
So I think like creating that spacein our brains, I think also helps us,
appreciate the positive feedback morebecause, we have this balance of having
time to reflect upon it as well, ina way that's like more authentic to
(17:44):
us maybe, or more like, not just moreauthentic to us, that speaks to a
greater range of, of our experience.
And what's important to us.
Steve Treseler (17:51):
Mm-hmm yeah.
When you get that, oh,how did the concert go?
You know, it's very nice.
It's an equivalent of, youknow, how how's it going?
That kind of question.
Yeah.
Where you're not probably gonna peelback all the layers in that moment.
Maybe you'll get there.
And when we bring other people in thatcould be another topic for a conversation
about who to, when to take feedback andwho to take constructive feedback from
(18:13):
and we can get caught up that that'ssomething, whereas if we're post this
podcast and then suddenly we take toheart any, you know, negative comment
that shows up online, then try to.
Someone's trolling us.
And then do we reformat thepodcast to take in that feedback?
The comment section?
Well, of course not, that's, that'ssilly, and some people know what they
like, but not why they like it, or theymight not be, you know, the right kind
(18:37):
of audience for what you're bringing.
So it's like who, if you wanna bringsomeone into that reflection experience
and get the, get constructive andhelpful feedback from people who, who
are the right folks to take it from?
Cause I would argue that you wanna curatewho you take, who you take feedback from.
If a random person after a show goes,oh, can I give you a piece of advice?
(18:58):
I'm like, no, thanks.
Not that I'm in denial, but I, you know,you're, you're not on my list of people
who I need your feedback right now.
And it might not, might not be helpful.
Lauren Best (19:08):
Yeah.
And I mean, like when we think of evenjust our own perspective and our own
feedback, depending on what lens we'relooking at, something, we can have
really different opinions of it, right?
Depending on kind of the anglewe're looking at it, or even like
the, just the day or how we'refeeling, but also like just the
way in which we're considering it.
And likewise, everyone that we talk tois going to have like a variability in
(19:32):
like how they might consider something,depending on like, kind of the angle
they're thinking about it in the day.
But then like beyond that, likenot everyone loves the same
flavor of ice cream, you know?
Like you're not gonna be everyone'sfavorite flavor of ice cream.
So it's like ice cream, right?
Like if you take the same ice creamsample, which will be melted by now , I
(19:55):
should have picked a different food.
But you know what I mean, to like abunch of different people, like you're
going to get different opinions on it.
And it doesn't necessarily mean thatlike the ice cream you've chosen is.
Like it is all those thingsto all those different people.
Some people like it, some peopledon't, some people will have, you
know, say certain things about it,but you know, you gotta decide what,
(20:17):
what you think about the ice cream.
Steve Treseler (20:20):
Yeah and knowing who that audience is, it is
probably not gonna be for everyone.
What you're creating isn't gonna be likethe tide laundry detergent of music.
Same thing with, with our, you know,using the podcast, as an example, if
we played this for someone who only.
Likes listening to sports talk onpodcasts, you know, they're probably not
gonna like this podcast, but that, youknow, how meaningful is that feedback?
(20:40):
It's not the right, you know, it's notthe audience that we're choosing for it.
Lauren Best (20:46):
And I still encourage, like, I still, I think it's still
valuable to get feedback from peoplewhose - what I was gonna say is
from people who dunno what they'retalking about and whose opinions you
don't value, as highly as others,but just because like, like sometimes
you're gonna get feedback like that.
Right?
Like, someone's going to comment onpistachio ice cream who like doesn't
(21:09):
really has never tasted it beforeand they don't particularly like it.
Whereas you're making pistachio icecream for the pistachio ice cream
lovers, you know, and like, I don't know.
I, I I think for me, like sometimes it'svery frustrating and discouraging at
the time to get that kind of feedback.
But I find it helps me take allfeedback in like with a grain of salt
(21:33):
or with a greater sense of perspective.
Steve Treseler (21:35):
Mm-hmm yeah.
And you can learn something from that,but also like, being able to curate
it, or you might take it all in.
If you're reading a bunch of,you know, comments section is
a good place to mention it.
So some people know that they take it to,I know some people that they might read
it and really take everything personally.
And they know that in which caseit can be good to just block it
out and only seek out the feedbackthat's going to be most helpful.
(21:58):
But otherwise, yeah, you can takein all of it, but you have to know,
have the discernment to know what'slike, oh, that's a, that is a good,
constructive idea that we can, thatwe can take to make our work better
in the future versus what's noise.
Lauren Best (22:12):
Yeah, totally.
And it's like, you know, things that it'skind of like things that are challenging
versus things that in, in a good way and,and maybe stretching or strengthening
versus things that just wear you down.
Steve Treseler (22:23):
Totally.
But in the reflection side,I also like thinking about
reflecting on other models too.
Not, we don't have to get,not just getting too stuck in.
Listing and observing your own things,but having these really clear models
of music or art that's like reallydeeply resonates with you and then have
the reflection feel like, why is it?
(22:44):
What is it specifically like,what is it the elements of this?
Is it the lyrics?
Is it the timbre?
Is it the, the quality?
Is it the, the technical execution orlike, what is it specifically about
something that's really meaningful?
And what even reflectingon those elements.
And I even have likenotebooks filled with that.
Just even some different musical elements.
Like here's some differentrhythmic components of music
(23:06):
that really gel with me.
And then here's timbre and form andinstrument, like all these things
that have been sort of the sketchesfor other music I'm working on.
So really re reflecting on it'slike, what's really meaningful.
And why, or how about something elsethat, you know, the craft is really
amazing, but it's not your thing.
It just doesn't doesn't do it for you.
Like why you reflect on what, whatis it about that is meaningful
(23:30):
for you and what is not.
And from your own body of work of, ofstuff that you've done, it reflected too.
I've recorded certain things that arestill meaningful to me to listen to.
And other things that may havegotten whatever, a better review,
but I listen back and, you know,it doesn't do as much for me.
So that that can be quite insightfulagain for the strategy or the directions,
(23:52):
like, well, what, what am I doing next?
And those kind of questionsof knowing what the models are
and, and where you're headed.
That can be really enlightening.
Lauren Best (24:01):
Noticing, like, as you're saying, like the push
pull and I think that like itcan be, I think it can be a why?
Like, why is it that I like this?
Or I don't like this?
You know, but it can also just be,oh, I'll just notice, like the moments
(24:23):
within the piece that I feel likeI want more, like I'm drawn to it.
It's sticky or it's yummy.
Or like, I want that versus likemoments that I feel like I'm pulling
away or like I'm not as interested or,or I'm feeling like I'm shutting down.
Or like, you know, you can think of itin other ways, instead of like a push
pull you could think of, well I mean,there may be things that already suggest
(24:48):
like tension or resolution, but likekind of other, other opposites as well.
But also the, like the whys too.
You know, I'm a fan of thinking likeof, of like teasing it out, but kind
of also just like, sort of noticingand like increasing the amount of
noticing as well without conclusions.
Steve Treseler (25:13):
Yeah and that, you mentioned that reminds me of, it was a
composition exercise, and I heard thissecond hand, so any of you folks let me
know if I get this wrong, I believe itcame from the late Lee Hilo, a composition
professor at the school I went to, and heasked one of the first things you do in
lessons or in a class was find like yourfavorite moment in the piece of music.
Like just that transcendent moment whereyou talk about everything lines up and
(25:36):
then you go back and deeply analyzethe thirty seconds leading up to that.
Like in every possible way thatyou can do some musical analysis
and figure out what is it aboutthat that will, how does it set up?
That moment.
Is what you were talking about, thattension and release, is that those,
those moments that are amazing, is itthat moment itself or is it the context
or how it leads, how it leads into that?
(26:00):
And, yeah, and I know at a time, Ithink it was about that time when I
was at music school time, just workinga lot on the craft of the music and
worried about virtuosity and people who,you know, playing higher and faster.
Then there was time I starting to kindof go back and listening to pop music
and songwriters and I found that therewas certain music, or certain like
tambers of people's voice, right here,and it just sucked me all the way in.
(26:21):
I was like, wow, I'm just likeaddicted to some of these sounds.
And I'm like, well, there's nothingthat, and I remember things like, well,
this isn't virtuosic or impressive orthe best, but it's just super amazing.
Like why?
Why is it?
Why am I drawn drawn to this?
Like, what, what is the aesthetic orthe other values of this music, which is
different from what we've been doing inmusic school, nerdland, just diving into
(26:45):
all the, the mechanics and practicingand all of that, but that's, yeah,
that type of reflection can be yeah.
Super, super helpfulin the, in the journey.
Lauren Best (26:57):
Cool.
Yeah.
And that, that like reflection.
I'm just thinking about the, therelationship between memory and reflection
and just the point that reflectinghelps us remember things better.
So even if you're not gaining likeinsight from reflection, it's still
(27:19):
making whatever you did more - I wasgonna say more worthwhile, but what I
mean by that is it's taking whatever youdid and kind of strengthening the neural
pathways, the, the networks in your mind.
So that like the time you spentdoing that, you're kind of getting
a more lasting effect from.
And so even if the reflection isn't like,oh, I'm having all these deep insights,
(27:43):
like, or like I realized something or likeit's, you know, it doesn't necessarily
even have to be something novel.
Reflection kind of as review, so tospeak, like without consciously adding
on a lot of things is also valuable.
And will I think help yoursubconscious work at those things too.
(28:05):
But just, just on the level that,like, we will remember the experience
more particularly when we reflectkind of very shortly afterwards and
then, and then again, after that.
Steve Treseler (28:17):
Yeah, then it's more likely to get into long storage, the
experience, rather than a fleetingmoment that, that it just goes away.
Lauren Best (28:25):
Yeah.
Oh, and, and so, and so, and regardingthat, is that like, kind of, that's
another variable we can adjust with howwe're reflecting is like reflecting upon
something only with our memory of it.
Right?
Versus like, like reflecting and thenlistening back to something you haven't
heard and then reflecting again.
(28:47):
And also even within the listeningprocess, like, how much we listen to
and how much we can actually rememberand keep in our minds and respond
to like in a conversation, right?
Like if I say one sentence and thenask you to respond, you remember
what I said in a certain way and youremember the, probably if it's short
(29:07):
enough sentence, you might rememberalmost word for word what I said.
Right?
And really be able to keep everythingin the front of your mind that I was
talking about and even keep my energyand intonation and kind of the feeling
I had kind of really present with you.
Whereas, if I do what I'm doing rightnow and say a whole bunch of things that
has like a, you know, there's a lot goingon and there's like, kind of like a I'm
(29:30):
I'm going through different, differentkind of energies within it even, right?
That's a lot more to reflect upon,like, and you're gonna have a
different memory of what I'm doing.
And a different kind ofreflective experience.
Steve Treseler (29:44):
That would be hard.
That would be a hard few paragraphsto repeat back, but thankfully
we're we're recording, then we'regonna get a transcript of it
so we can then we can go back.
Lauren Best (29:57):
Then then we can truly reflect.
Yeah.
But, but I often like mentionthis to students of mine.
I'll be like, don't play forfive minutes and then listen
back and try to analyze it.
Like try like thirty seconds or fiveseconds, like, like start with really
short clips so that like, you can actuallyremember what you did and like really
(30:18):
listen to what you did, because if yousit through five minutes of yourself and
then you're trying to reflect on that,that's a huge amount of information.
Steve Treseler (30:24):
Absolutely.
So the thing I was thinking about toois how do you think that this, the,
the practice of reflection fits intothe, the category of, these are "How?"
Episodes, you know, how do we do this?
How do we improvise?
How do you see that the, the reflectionpiece fits into fits into the, how.
Lauren Best (30:42):
I think this is important, actually, 'cause I was, I was
mentioning before, like that reflection,like time, helps some reflection.
Which it is, I guess that's like beforeI was saying, oh, reflect quickly.
And like, there is somethingto be said for that too.
But that like having some time havingsome diffused thinking, sleeping,
(31:04):
like all of those things are helpful.
And I think that we don't alwaysbuild reflection into - well, I
mean, I hope we build reflectionto our creative processes.
But like, I'm thinking like there's thecreative project process, but even like
the project cycle or like a class, right?
Like often, I mean, again,like some classes do have
(31:27):
time for reflection, right?
Like, let's talk about it.
Let's reflect upon it.
Or even like time tolike write some notes.
But like some experiences don'tbuild in reflective moments or
don't build in time for that, or,you know, and so on and so forth.
So I think like we can, we canchoose to reflect and we can, I think
(31:49):
we're reflecting anyways but we canchoose to reflect and we can create
opportunities for reflection by design.
And I think it's important toremember that it it's a part of it.
Steve Treseler (32:02):
Yeah.
And I think, well, as I, I mentionedbefore, it does help with that,
you know, to take the moment and tofigure out the strategy, the next
project, or what, you know, answerthe question, what, what do I do next?
That reflection helps.
And, and also in the process oftrying to level up the skills that are
important to, to improve over time.
A thing that just came to mindthinking, listening back, was one of
(32:23):
my, I think it was my first studiosession after I, you know, finished
school and I was teaching, was startingto work professionally in Seattle.
And I was recording a demo for afriend's band that I was playing it.
And I hadn't really been ina recording studio before and
I hadn't been listening back.
I hadn't been doing a lot of reflection.
It was kind of that avoidance, avoidinglistening back as I was talking about.
And then, you know, we're in thestudio and I, I remember the, the
(32:47):
engineers, like did he say something?
Is there a reason thesaxophone sound so throaty?
I was like, what's that supposed to mean?
And they were like, listen,I listened back to it and I
was just like, so embarrassed.
I hated everything about how itsounded, you know, I had like a
little, you know, mini or fullon, you know, artistic crisis.
Why?
How?
Why am I sounding like this and that?
But it did lead the way tolike, starting to record myself.
(33:09):
Once I got out offeeling sorry for myself.
I just didn't like how I was playing whatI was playing and I was not very kind
to myself about it, but eventually itled to even like an equipment overhaul.
I ended up changing all my equipment,dumping my mouthpiece, new saxophone.
I mean, I just changed my wholeequipment and this and concept of
sound and practicing recording.
And then by the time I gotto actually record my first
(33:31):
record, I'd done enough of it.
I knew how to shape my sound in a waythat I would like how it recorded.
And I listened back to the firstmix of my first record, even, I
was like, okay, that's the sound?
And I was like, happy with how itsounded, but it took that process
of, I kind of have to know what'sthere and not be in denial about it.
Reflect.
And it was like kindof some painful growth.
But I could have just, blinders andjust kept charging ahead without
(33:53):
taking that more thoughtful,reflective moment to like, learn
how to be better at, in this case,recording saxophone in a little room.
Lauren Best (34:04):
Totally totally.
Like we're asking ourselves to noticethings so that we can change them.
And then sometimes we're somad that we discovered things
that we wanna change, you know?
And it's like, you know, sometimesI have an outfit in mind and I put
it on and I look in the mirror andI'm like, oh no, like, it did not
(34:25):
come together the way I imagined.
Right?
And I look in the mirror and like, Ineed to make some changes and sometimes
I have to go through that process severaltimes, but I mean, it doesn't necessarily
mean that like, those clothes should beburned, although maybe sometimes like,
there's time to give some things away.
But it might just be like thatI need to adjust other things.
(34:46):
Or sometimes like, I'm just too hot.
I just don't like how it feels.
I didn't account for that.
I didn't notice that before, you know?
Sometimes I don't have to do a lotto my hair, and I usually won't
anyways, but sometimes it's likereally humid and things are different.
And it's like, just because you lookin the mirror and you wanna change
something, doesn't mean that likeit's the mirror's fault or your fault
(35:09):
or that like all is, you know, lost.
It just means that like you're gettingready and you're preparing and like you're
making adjustments because that's, that'spart of it, that's what you want to do.
Steve Treseler (35:22):
Yeah.
And, and back to episode one ofexperimentation, you have a hypothesis
about what outfit's gonna work, andthen you gather some data you're like,
maybe not, and then you make the change.
Lauren Best (35:30):
Totally.
Yeah.
And very closely related toexperimentation because like that, that
reflection so, so has to be a part of it.
And I find also like it's not always- the reflection doesn't always come
when you're expecting it, or likehelp you in the ways you're expecting.
Like sometimes we getsome surprises through it.
(35:51):
And whether that's like, as you weresaying, sometimes something that's like
really difficult, like down the line cancan turn out to be like part of you know
process that's that's really useful.
Or sometimes we just use theinformation in, in different ways.
Yeah.
Steve Treseler (36:12):
One other I guess kind of concept I wanted to get to, as we wrapped
up is sort of, this is paradox or is inthe book by George Leonard "Mastery".
So the, master's paradox, it's kindof this, this is paradox between
there being goals and also no goals.
One part of the process when we're kindof separating, creating versus analyzing.
(36:37):
I remember this, it's a principal fromthis program, like a work community like
music workshop program called The Musicfor People and one of their principles, or
what it's called is, you know, "All soundsexist in the universe with all others."
You know, there are no mistakes.
You make a sound and it is what it is, andwe're accepting of that and observing it.
(36:59):
And it's just a beautiful way ofgoing about and creating things
like we can embrace, embrace that.
And a lot of what we're doing,it's the act of creating
and being with other people.
And that just is what it is.
We're observing it, kindof that there's not a goal.
It's just the doing it.
But at the same time, we have thosethings where we do have projects.
We want to, that we want to complete,or we're trying to level up our skills
(37:22):
that there's, that we do have at the sametime, we do have goals and benchmarks
and things that we're striving for thatwere growing that were not stagnating.
And one way that he talks about this inthe book, the, the quote is, "The trick
here is to walk the fine line betweenendless goalless practice and those
alluring goals that appear along theway, but the journey is what counts."
(37:44):
Which is interesting.
So kind of being able to holdboth of those, you know, I, I
want to get better at this skill.
I want to finish this project desireto, you know, whatever kind of
goals or things you're striving for.
And sometimes you don't reach themin a certain way and that's all
part of the journey, but then alsokind of accepting all the, all the
(38:04):
sounds and, you know, everythingthat's, that's part of the process.
The, the, the misfires or mistake, or isit even a, is it even a mistake, but I
kind of like that model of holding bothof those, because they're both important.
Because if I get into the mode whereI'm very highly goal oriented, even if
I achieve the goal at a certain point, Irealize it can still feel kind of empty
if the process isn't part of it as well.
(38:28):
But I, but yeah, I can also feelthat I can get - if I'm just in, in
the moment and being, you know, opento everything, then I can tend to
be more complacent or I'm not sure.
But I, I just like just accepting thatit's a paradox and sometimes I have to
lean into one side more than the other.
Lauren Best (38:49):
Yeah.
And like it's related to likethe increasing self-awareness,
changing self-awareness.
Looking at self-awareness like the,at yourself and your practice from
different angles and like kind ofincreasing your capacity for that.
And then also the liketurning off the self monitor.
And it's like, well, which do I do?
(39:11):
Do I pay attention to myself evenmore so that I can notice these things
so I can reflect on these things.
So I play more slowly and I am moreaware and more mindful or do I, you
know, try to go the direction of havingless self monitoring and not being
critical and like these other things.
And it it's, as you're saying,it's a bit of both and in different
(39:34):
situations for different reasons.
Or, or some people refer like, likeI've seen before it talked about
that creativity is like findingthe balance between absolute
narcissism and crippling self doubt.
And then if you strike a line,like perfectly down the middle,
then you can make things
. Steve Treseler: Yeah.
And I've heard some of things forinstance, like internet bandwidth,
(39:57):
like your upload and download, like,you can't be, I can't be uploading
all of these videos and downloadingmovies at the same time, my
internet connection won't handle it.
So you've got some upload and download.
So I, I may have referenced this beforein terms of when you're creating, even
you're having a conversation or makingmusic together, you're listening, you're
being receptive to what you're hearing.
And then also thinking about what you'regonna say or what you're gonna play next.
(40:17):
So you're uploading, you're uploadingmaterial and you're downloading it,
but you can't do all of it at once.
So where do you.
You know, what, how muchdo you, do you focus on?
And, and oftentimes I'm finding, Ineed to be downloading a lot more than
I'm uploading through the, through thesaxophone and getting myself more in that.
But if I'm totally listening and beingvery receptive and only listening, then
(40:40):
if I go too far that way, and I'm notin the moment then I stop contributing.
I become passive.
So it's a it's an interesting way.
Yeah.
It's related to flow states too.
Like anything that's likely to produce aflow state, if you miss the flow state is
going to be frustrating or boring, right?
Like, like if you, so it's like thingsthat have the potential to, to put
(41:04):
us in like incredible flow states.
Also have the potential to be sodifficult that they're incredibly
frustrating and discouraging, right?
So the it's like it is a tradeoff , you know, we we're, we're not
ever gonna constantly be in a flowstate for the rest of our lives.
But like we can work with the conditionsthat take us in and out of that.
Steve Treseler (41:27):
Yeah.
That has its own cycle too.
That's that's an upcoming episodeon flow states, but I've heard
yeah, somewhere, totally splits themarker between boredom and anxiety.
And if you're like exactly in the middle,then you're in a flow state or being in
the, in the zone and supremely focused.
But let's I think we'll leave thatfor, leave that for another day.
Lauren Best (41:48):
For another, another day.
Another episode.
Steve Treseler (41:50):
Yeah.
And any, anything else you weredying to say on this that we
didn't get to before we wrap it up?
Lauren Best (41:55):
Well, I'll have to reflect on it more and, and maybe, maybe our
listeners have some reflections oftheir own to, to share about this.
Steve Treseler (42:05):
Yeah.
So, yeah, connect, connect with us atinfiniteimprovisation.com/podcast and
you can join our online community.
You can also shoot us an email and besure to subscribe on your favorite podcast
platform and we're up on YouTube as well.
So you can watch us havethese conversations.
If you like subscribe to our YouTubechannel, Infinite Improvisation.
Lauren Best (42:25):
Until next time!
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