Teaching Improvisation

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lauren Best (00:07):
Hello and welcome to the Infinite Improvisation Podcast.
Adventures in music and creativity.
I'm Lauren.
Best joined by my co-host Steve Treseler.
Hello, welcome back.

Steve Treseler (00:20):
Yeah.
So today we're gonna do a littlecheck in on some educational
projects we've got, we've got going.
I like to refer to myselfas a teaching artist.
I don't know what you think of that term.
Lauren, do you embrace teaching artist?

I embrace the term teaching artist.
I've often heard it referredto as artist educator.
But go on.

That's interesting.
Yeah.
So I've, I've heard it as a way to referto people that have a, a dual career path.
So in my case, the performing recordingartist side, and also the education
side where I'm not necessarily aperformer who teaches a little bit
on the side or an educator who playsa little bit on the side, but kind
of going all in, in both areas.

(01:06):
And yeah, I know some peoplearen't, aren't a huge fan
of the term artist educator.
I do like teaching artists, cuz oftentimeswhen we, we talk about our greatest
teachers, we call it like, oh, one of my,you know, my first, you know, my first
music teacher, we don't say my firsteducator, sometimes that, yeah, nothing
against the term education, but sometimesit can reek of the system a little bit.
So, but artist educator,a similar, similar term.

How do you feel about facilitator?

I, I like it.
I like it more than consultant.
We've talked about that,but that's another thing.

Do you like it more?
How, how does it rank comparedto teacher and educator?
Or I guess teaching artist is alittle different than teacher.

Yeah.
It's, to me, it's facilitator it's maybeeven seems like more of a neutral term.
Sometimes it might not be, it's just,maybe you'll even a little more ambiguous.
What what's, what's being facilitated.
And is there the education happeningor you're just helping manage a,
a group of people and just kindof keeping everyone on track.

(02:04):
Are you facilitating a meeting?
Does it mean you're leading it orjust muting and unmuting people?
How, how much.
How much is going on.
So.

And I have to say facilitating artist versus teaching
artist has a very different energyin terms of like, I don't know, just
like teaching artists sounds a littlemore homegrown, like a little, you
know, a little more holistic maybe.
Whereas, and I really like theterm facilitator, because I think
it's understood very broadly,like this, this kind of brings us

(02:33):
to, you know, class versus lessonversus workshop versus session.
Like some of these ambiguities.

Versus seminar versus retreat versus camp versus yeah.

Exactly.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And, and how different industriesor different contexts or different
regions or different, you know, there'sdifferent approaches, but we, we try to
find language that communicates more.
But there can be, there can, there canbe some ambiguous language there as well.

Yeah, for me, teaching artists seems a little
bit independent too, cause I'm notnecessarily in a, you know, in a big
institution or something like that.
And yeah, facilitating to me, that wouldmay, that would be, I would need more
clarification if you introduce yourself.
Cause I'm an artistfacilitator, like what?

(03:22):
Oh, interesting.
What on earth does that mean?

Yeah, I also like the term mentor and mentoring, but it's often used
to me in more individual relationships.
I've noticed people who I speak to havesuper broadly differing opinions on the
term coach and coaching and what thatmeans and whether it brings to mind sports

(03:46):
or whether it brings to mind businesscoaching or, or other things entirely.
And I think coach and mentor sometimesused a little interchangeably.

Yeah.
Whether it's a yeah.
Life coach or your batting coach,it can mean different things.
Usually people can be yeah.
In the sports world, but positiverelationship with, with coach.
What was, what was the other one?
You said coach and yeah mentor.
That's important.
You know, I speak with, with, my mentorsas reverence, like, oh, this was my
great mentor, but calling yourselflike, hi, I'm a saxophonist and mentor.

(04:22):
I'm like that, that justsounds a little presumptuous.
I'm not sure.
I'm not sure why, or youcan talk about, oh, I do.
You know, like to, you know, be amentor figure to young, but as soon
as you, I identify it as the label.
Hello, I'm Steve saxophonist and mentor.
Like I said, sounds a little suspicious,to claim that one, but I donno.

(04:42):
Where was this leading?
Is the yeah.
Looking at the education side of what we,what we do, what projects we've got our
own artistic and creative projects going,but on the, on the education teaching
facilitator side I know you have, yeah.
We've, we've got some things happeningthis fall and I wanted to yeah.
Hear more about your programs.

(05:03):
I know you're redesigning your, yourclasses, which have been some more
traditional, you know, one on onepiano lessons and group things and
sounds like you're revamping those.
And I want to hear about, Iwanna hear about improv club.

Sure, yeah.
So do you want me to just kind of tellyou a little bit about that journey?

Yeah.
About the journey then the overviewof your programs, which I've
heard a little bit, but yeah.
I want to hear, hear more.
It's interesting.

I, oh, thanks.
Well, I mentioned the journey justkind of, to contextualize it a little.
So during the pandemic, I wasoffering piano voice ukulele programs
on, sorry, one on one lessonsonline, I should say to start.
And I was doing some group programstoo, in terms of like I've done, you
know, talks and professional developmentand, and group baby classes online.

(05:54):
But at the beginning of thepandemic, for voice, piano,
ukulele, that was all one on one.
Then last summer I, over the summer, choseto switch my individual lessons to groups.
And so I kind of designed that over thesummer, what those groups would look like.
And I, I mean, I already had someidea of that from facilitating lots of

(06:18):
groups in different kinds of contextsand both for music, but also for like
other art forms or, or learning throughthe arts and, and things like that.
So over the past year, I've beenrunning these groups and so
they've, I had a piano group.
I had a ukulele group andthey're group lessons.

(06:41):
So they're covering a lot of the samestuff that we are covering one-on-one.
In fact, we have some one-on-one, I'lluse the word coaching or feedback or
mentorship time during the lesson.
But then there's all this groupstuff too, where they're getting to
collaborate and improvise and do youknow, creative activities together
and do some activities that focus oncoordination and skill building and

(07:03):
like building general musicality.
So I was running those programsover the past year and kind
of refining that curriculum.
As I said, I sort of, I sometimes actuallycalled a framework rather than curriculum
because when we, like, when we think ofa curriculum, like a method book and the
idea is that I'm using this framework withmethod books that we were using before.

(07:23):
And some of the students, it's kindalike an independent study portion of
the class and they might be doing thatin a method book, or they might be
doing that like learning songs, likelearning other repertoire of their
choice, or they might be songwriting orlike working on their own projects and
their own project could be improvising.
But it's that sort of self-directedjourney where I'm making

(07:44):
suggestions, I'm helping themkind of move towards that goal.
And helping them practice effectively.
Helping them engage and deliverpractice, helping them with their
problem solving and with guiding them.
But it's coming from where theywant to go, you know, and kind
of, and, and the pacing is abit more where they want to be.
Whereas in the group, I liketo do lots of co-design with

(08:04):
the groups too and get input.
But with the group, we're goingthrough more like group creative
processes or group activities.
So last summer I was developingthat framework and then implementing
it over the past year and kind ofrefining it and like, you know,
like any new program, seeing what welove, seeing what we wanna change.

(08:25):
As a result of that, of doingthat over the past year, I decided
to offer it in the coming yearas mixed instrument groups.
So we'll have piano, ukulele andvoice together and in a kids group.
Oh, and I also gave it a nameafter this year of experimentation.
That's Kaleidoscope Music, and I callit that because with a kaleidoscope, you
see things from different perspectives.

(08:47):
Right?
You see things from changingperspectives or changing
interpretations of what you see.
And it creates patterns and itcreates kind of instant compositions.
And I felt that kaleidoscopes beingsomething that creates patterns out of
what is and creates kind of artisticinterpretations out of what is, but
also being like a playful toy andsomething that we use as a tool for

(09:12):
observation and reflection, really, right?
Like a kaleidoscope doesn't haverules or you don't win a kaleidoscope.
Well, I hope you win a kaleidoscope,but you don't win at kaleidoscope.
You know, like it's it'sabout like, kaleidoscopes are
inherently process oriented.

Yeah, it's an, it's an infinite game rather than a finite game.
There's not a, there's not a ruleyou're, you're playing with it, but
there's the, the goal is to continue.

Totally.
Yeah.
And, and they're like, andit also it's that fitting
together pieces to make a whole.
The idea of like, of, ofdifferent perspectives coming
together, different people.
But like also different elementscoming together to create like this
cohesive and beautiful pattern thatmay sometimes be somewhat abstract.
Right.

(09:56):
More or less recognizablebut can be appreciated.
Both in play and, andin like in art, right?
Like we, we play with kaleidoscopes.
We also have lots of examples of art thatthat uses kind of, kind of those methods.
So anyhow, I digress.
So over the last yearthat's what I've been doing.

(10:17):
So in the fall I'm alsohaving a voice specific group.
So we will have one, one voicegroup for people who really
want a deep dive on voice.
In the fall in Kaleidoscope I'll have akids group, an adult group that are both
mixed instruments and then a voice group.
That's for ages 10 and up.
So like kids and adults mixedtogether, but with a, with
a like voice concentration.

(10:39):
Just because voice techniquecan have some extra stuff.
Vocalists can still join the kids or theadult group, but like I thought I would
do one voice specific group as well.

I see.
And then a mixed instrumentation withkeyboards and ukuleles and guitars.

Yeah and it could be voice with that.
I specialize in keyboard and ukulele.
I do play some guitar as well.
But with this, with this format,the idea is that like the musicality
building parts, I'll say some of that'son instrument, some of that's off,

(11:16):
but like even if you were bringing notyour main instrument to that, you would
still be benefiting from it becauseit's building up the improvisation
skills, the musicality skills,like those skills that aren't only
specific to your to your instrument.
So sometimes in those sectionswe do body percussion and we
do or, or, or vocal sounds.

(11:36):
And we do like other things to build up.
Some of it's on instrument too.
And then there's like a collaborative,creative like section where
we're doing those sorts of,of activities coming together.
There's some sharing with one anothergetting feedback, kind of getting
used to presenting, but also gettingused to sharing where we're at in our

(11:57):
musical journeys, you know, the kindof music class as support group in our
music learning journey element of it.
And then we have this individualizedpart where the students are
typically working individually, butif they wanna team up, they can.
And I call that Quests and Questions whichis actually inspired by Quest University.

(12:18):
Which is in BC.
And so, so that part, I say Questsand Questions because like a,
we know what a quest is, right?
Like.
We're working towards, or we feel calledtowards, working towards our goals.
But also questions because sometimeslike we're not quite on a quest yet, but
we're, we're working through questions.
Or sometimes people have questions for me.

(12:38):
So a bit, so yeah.
Do you have questions so far?

Yeah.
I have quests and questions.
So is this online now?
Or is this in person?

Oh yeah.
So these groups are online.

So, so these are, these are online.

These groups could, so this format, this framework
could totally work in person.
The reason I do it online is onefor accessibility in terms of like,
we are all able to login in our ownmusic studio environments, right?
I'm not limited by the numberof pianos I can fit into a room.

(13:16):
Candidly, it makes itlogistically possible.
Right?
Cause I can't run a mixedinstrument class and not know
how many pianos I'm gonna need.
Like I could, I mean, I could runa mixed instrument class with only
one piano in the studio in person.
But the, the, the point is, is thatwe each have our own instruments,
our own sort of musical fishbowl.
They are being online, butthat we're coming together.

(13:36):
And, you know, like I have two kids,after school, time is busy in terms of
getting kids to and from activities.
So and the area I live in has a lotof people who live in, in rural areas.
And so for people to who live likehalf hour or, you know, an hour out
of the main center, for them to comeinto town, for their kid to do a

(13:57):
music lesson and then go back home.
It can really start to become ahuge time commitment and bringing
siblings and this and that.
So part of it being online makesit more geographically flexible.
I can take students from differentregions, but even in terms of my local
community, it makes it more accessible interms of people not needing to commute.

(14:17):
But also it means we get allthe benefits of technology.
So I do it on Muzie using Muzie,which is a platform it's kind
of like Zoom for music lessons,except it has way more than that.

Muzie, not a sponsor, but you're welcome to be a sponsor!
Yeah.

So, so with Muzie I have, you know, we can share videos back and forth.
I can create videos for them to,to play along with, it has some
like chat in between sessions.
It has a whiteboard, it has akeyboard that I can, you know,
like an onscreen keyboard thatwe can, we can show things on.
So, and the whiteboard has musicspecific tools that are, that

(14:53):
are handy for collaboration anddoing, doing creative things.
So that way we can like get thebest of what the technology offers.
Some of that, some of that STEM learning,but like kind of those additional
possibilities that the technology offers.
Recording classes, there are,I'm sure there's things I'm
forgetting to list about.
The being able to mute also.
So again, like we can mute and, anddo things individually and we can

(15:16):
unmute and share which has a lot ofbenefits in that kind of environment.
So that we're able to have reallyindividualized musical relationships
with our instruments, like that.
We can have some sense of privacy inworking, you know, working on our own, but
that we can also come together obviouslyand share and collaborate and get all

(15:39):
the benefits of the group in that way.

Yeah.
And I like you call it a frameworkrather than a curriculum, because
curriculum sometimes sounds morerigid and it's certainly, if it's a
framework that other people, you know,down the road can use, it gives more
autonomy and creativity to the teachers,but some people don't want that.
They want the curriculum,please just spoon feed it to
me so I know what to do next.

Well, I mean, there are, there are some
curriculum-like elements to it.
But the idea is that it canflex to different curriculums.
Have you heard the idea of spiralcurriculums or spiral education?

No.
Tell me more.

So I hope I don't reduce this too much, but the, the general
ideas that we can teach sort of advancedconcepts to even beginners in a somewhat
more generalized way, and then returnto that concept over and over and

(16:34):
gain more depth around that concept.
Rather than thinking of our curriculum asbeing like small building blocks that we
add up little by little, and you get allthese building blocks, and then eventually
you get to see how those fit togetherand you get to see the big picture.
Right?
So the idea with the spiral curriculumis that you get kind of a bigger, a
sense of where you're going in theend much sooner that you return to

(16:58):
that and that you kind of return tothe same concepts and the same ideas
and, and gain a deeper understandingof them as you return to them.
So, so, so some of, some of thatelement too, I, I like the term
framework, model is another one.
Now we're talking about language.
Maybe I'll maybe I'll haveto decide whether it's a
framework, curriculum or model.

Or modules or pillars or yeah.

Well, and what I wanted also, I wanted to think of like, what's
the best of what I have to offer.
Like, what's most important for meto do with people musically, like
how can I help people the most?
Right?
And then like, how does thatsort of pattern or simplify,
simplify's the wrong word.

(17:42):
Like if I, if I kind of put theanswers of that into a schedule, right?
Like how does it make senseas a format or as a framework?
And so through testing this out,I've, I've sort of found some things,
but I also, I wanted something thatcould apply to different instruments
and apply to different age groups.
And so obviously there's lots, wedo, that's specific for the person,

(18:02):
for the age group, for the instrumentbut the overall framework or model
can flex and can, can kind of beapplied in these different ways.
And with this sort of spiral idea ofhaving something that seems simple, but
allows us in terms of it being somethingthat is a somewhat repeatable framework,
but allows for a lot of flexibilityand customization within that, and

(18:22):
like diving deep into things based oninterest and based on on, well, I guess,
interest and abilities of who's thereand, and what's most useful to them.

That's why, yeah, the framework is good too.
It can be adjusted to who's inthe room and which is element
of improvisation as well.
So is it, I mean, you've some youngerkids, so is it how much of it is,
you know, like technical developmentlearned to play the instrument?
I mean, with mixed instrumentation,like, does someone need
some supplemental lessons.
Like learn how to play theukulele somewhere else and then

(18:56):
jump into a Kaleidoscope class?
Or do you, how does thathow does that part fit in?

.Yeah, that's a good question.
So, and actually I was gonna mention thisearlier, when you mentioned guitar, for
example, or what I was gonna say is thatthe, the one-on-one feedback portion,
like I could give coaching and feedback tosomeone who was learning an instrument I
don't play, but the feedback and coachingI would give would be different than,

(19:25):
than their teacher for that instrument.
Do you know what I mean?
So like, I could, it kind of dependson what they want to focus on.
So like I'm not going to givethem technical feedback on things
I don't understand, obviously.
Whereas with a, with a voiceor piano, ukulele student.
I can, I can zoom in a littlemore to that technique.

(19:47):
But it certainly could be somethingthat is that, that, that students
do it in addition, if they havea different private teacher.
So sorry to answer your question,in summary, there is individual
feedback time that can be enough.
In terms of, again, the studentwhere they're at, what their goals

(20:08):
are, what they're working through.
Like, there is some of that individualfeedback time, but depending on like,
if, if they had a different teacher,they could certainly bring things
to the lesson that I would givethem feedback on, like songwriting
or kind of musicality performance,improvisation skills, theory skills.
I'm probably, I'm prob I'mprobably forgetting things,

(20:31):
but, but you get a picture.

Yeah.
And in my world, I do.
I mean, but a one-on-one, you know,the saxophone lessons, here's how
to play, you know, someone who playsflute wants to learn saxophone.
Here's how you make a sound.
Here's how you, you know, thetechnical skill development part.
But then the other more improvisationfocused things I do, I might give
a saxophone tip here and there,but then it's more about the, the
musicality and creativity elements.
So just, yeah.
Different.

(20:53):
Yeah.
Flip, flipping a switch.
So, but if you had like a beginner,like, you know, it sounds like
you've got some young kids too.
So if you had like a, a really young kidthat hasn't hasn't played ukulele before.
You might give them some individualcoaching to get 'em going ready
for the Kaleidoscope or, I mean,I'm kind, I guess, I guess what I'm
asking is like, what's the, what'sthe level of proficiency someone would
need to join one of these classes.

The classes start at ages six and up.

Okay.

I find for kids who are right on the edge it can be beneficial to
have a parent kind of around or close by.
But that's partially because oflike their reading level, right?
Like, like some six year olds aren'tready to be like typing in things
into the chat by themselves andkind of reading what's on screen.

(21:38):
Whereas other six year olds,actually, I won't even specify age.
If kids can't read what's onscreen yet in terms of reading the
words and navigating through theinterface through the user interface.
Or if they can't like read and type inthe chat, they might need some help.
I have some students who aren't like,they aren't totally reading yet, but

(21:58):
they can do like kind of some of it.
And then they ask forhelp when they need it.
So part of it is actually not aboutthe instrument it's about just like
navigating the interface of being online.
I find kids go through this big change,or that is like I'm sure there are a
few different specific, scientific,developmental words for in terms

(22:18):
for the stage I'm talking about.
But I bet, you know, you know whatI mean, where their language skills
and kind of their ability to receiveinstructions like auditory instructions
and like their processing of everythingand their kind of planning and
organizational skills for their mind,just sort of really like leaps a little.
So I find between like ages six andeight kids often, and so for some

(22:43):
kids that starts a little sooner andfor some kids it's a little later.
I find that the way they progressin lessons, this isn't specific to
Kaleidoscope, but in general, I findthey often kind of leap around that age.
I know most of your students areolder, but do you know what I mean?
Like around that age, it's like, theycan suddenly like their processing
speed seems to increase and just liketheir, their auditory perception is

(23:06):
shifting a little and they're verbalskills shift a little and like they
just things come together a bit.

And motor skills and all that.
Yeah.
Yeah.

So, yeah.
You know what I mean?
Like this thing and you're, you'recatching me embarrassed that I don't have
like, better terminology to describe that.
But what I'm trying to say is though,is if they start a little early it might
take them a little longer to progress.
If they start a little later inthat developmental stage, they might

(23:33):
initially progress a little more quickly.
But, and again, once again, thisisn't specific to Kaleidoscope.
This is what I say ingeneral for music lessons.
Is it worth starting earlier?
Yes.
Is your kid who starts at six is theirlike kind of learning curve gonna
look the same as their eight yearold sibling or as like a 10 year old?
It's a little different, but it'sabsolutely still worth starting sooner.

(23:55):
So in terms of the basic level ofproficiency on the instrument, they could
come to me as if they were coming totheir first piano lesson with nothing.
Like I've definitely had kidsstart with this format with
almost nothing to begin with.
And then just like one-on-one lessons,it's all going to depend on how much
time they spend in lesson time andhow much time they spend practicing.

(24:21):
For like kind of how quickly they kindof go through some of those foundational
concepts, but the principle behind howI've organized this, and I believe this to
be true through observation and I believethe science supports this, the classes are
front loading a ton of musical experience.
So if we kind of like, as, as youtalk about in improvisation workshops

(24:44):
with older kids, like let's get themplaying and creating and doing stuff.
And they're going to have all oflike these increased skills that have
nothing to do with reading music.
And in some ways aren'tspecific to their instrument.
Like it is specific to their instrument,but it's also transferable because they're
getting these like all these musicalconcepts and musical skills that are

(25:05):
being strengthened through like thesecollaborative and creative activities.
Yeah.
And so then like the kind of moretypical lesson stuff, when you're kind of
saying like, what do they need to start?
What are the fundamentals like,there is one-on-one time, I'll
catch them up with that as well.
We'll get them rolling with that.
We'll get them rolling with the technique.
We'll get them all that, butthat they're also getting like.

(25:29):
In one-on-one lessons, sometimeskids don't get to collaborate
with other kids for quite a while.
They may get to collaborate with ateacher, but they're not getting those
other collaborative musical skills
.Steve Treseler: Or for 20 years in piano lessons or who knows.
And sometimes for a long time.
Yeah.
And, and also in one-on-one lessons, Iwas only with students for a half hour,
typically sometimes more, but oftenlike the majority of lessons are half

(25:50):
hour, these classes are 50 minutes.
So again, the idea is that they'rewith their instruments more.
So, you know, mileagemay vary on practicing.
Right?
But what I know is that the kids aregonna be spending more time making
music with their instrument inthose first, however many lessons.
So, so that just returnsthe idea of beginners.

(26:12):
How much they practice on their, on theirown, or like in between lessons and also
what they're coming to the lesson with.
Like some people, this may be a littledifferent I don't know if you find in
saxophone lessons, some people are likea little bit self taught, but like some
kids have been messing around on piano andgoing to dance classes and they actually
have a bunch of informal musical training.
Whereas other kids have like barelytouched it when they're starting.

That's true.
Oftentimes yeah.
Some will do that.
Some are just too worried about,they don't want to develop a bad
habit and don't want to startanything until they have some
instruction, which is respectable.
And some just trying to figuresome stuff out on their own, which
ends up often being a head start.
Sometimes I have to correct.
You know, if we gotta correct some thingsthat aren't quite right, but just kind

(26:56):
of feeling your way around the instrumentand developing relationship and getting
a sound is usually a bit of a head start.
Even if you have to adjustsome things as you go.
So on Kaleidoscope, so is there, it'sclearly, it's about the, you know,
about process rather than productis what is what it's sounding like.

(27:19):
But is there some sort of, is theresome sort of final project that
they're, that they're doing or per,like, what is a, what is the end of the
term sound like in, in Kaleidoscope?
Yeah.

I mean, I shouldn't say it's about process rather than product

Okay.
That's what I said.
That's not what you said, so yeah.

Well it's a bit, well, I actually did kind of say that, that
like with a kaleidoscope, a kaleidoscopeitself is kind of all about process.
I actually, as I said it, I wonderedif I was leading there, but it's what
I would say is my philosophy philosophywould be that by being more aware

(27:56):
and, and creative perhaps like we'rehaving fun with the process, right?
Like by bringing more to the process, weend up with a better project in the end.
And actually in the case of theseclasses, It's by having more process, we
end up with a, like, there's a greatervariety of what they're they're doing.

(28:18):
And again, some kids may get thisin one to one lessons because
like that works in those lessons.
Maybe not the group collaboration,but they may get a really
wide variety perhaps, perhaps.
But my experience teaching one toone though, is that like kids don't
naturally play music games with meas well as they do with each other.
It's a different thing when they're, whenthey're like playing with each other,

(28:40):
like you see kids at recess playingwith a ball, it's a lot different than
how kids play in gym class with a ball.
And it's a lot different than how akid plays alone with a ball, right?
Like there's, there'sdifferent approaches.
So anyhow, I'm actually planningthree recitals for this group.
The first being, and actually talkingabout the, I'm not sure if this

(29:01):
fits into the spiral curriculumphilosophy, but I wanted some of
the format that each class takes.
To like somewhat be mirroredthroughout the year.
So our first recital is focusingon creating asynchronous, but

(29:22):
interactive musical activities.
So call and response, ostinatos,for people to like join in on
like creating some, some virtualmusic, musical activities.
My, this hasn't been officiallyannounced yet, but my hope is to

(29:46):
have this be on gather town ora similar type of virtual space.
It may.
To make it really easy for people toaccess it's possible, we won't be in a
like visualized space, like gather town.
But it, for the sake of imaginingwhat this could be like, we'll

(30:07):
use gather town as an example.
Right?
So in gather town, you might have like,sort of the virtual drum circle where
we've like prepared different bodypercussion, rhythm tracks for people
to try to learn or to play along with.
Right?
Yeah.
Or, and we might have like a sectionthat's more of like a gallery, right.
Where we have some likeprompts that use some visuals.

(30:30):
Right.
And then we, we have, we may have asection where the students have recorded
some like call and response, improvisationprompts, where they're like doing some of
their own improvisation or their, or theirown ostinatos and then leaving space.
But the idea is to like designmusical activities for the students
to show their friends and family andfor them to do with like, with each

(30:52):
other, like with other classmates.
Oh.
But that over the Christmasholidays we'll have this, that
we'll have some fun with in class.
And like during the classessharing with each other.
But that they can also kind of take thisto their friends and families to do, to
do something that is a bit interactive.

Okay.
For, for the audience to participate.

Yeah.
In as well for people don't know,gather towns, you're saying like, you're
talking about like a VR space whereyou would want, you know, you could
choose whether to go into this roomand as an audience member, you would go
to this area and play the drum circle.
Then you walk over to thisgallery or down this hallway
and you experience the recital.
Well, gather town.
Isn't like entirely, like you'renot putting on a VR headset.

(31:33):
It more looks like it actually like ityou're kind of video game or something.
Yeah.
It looks like a video.
It looks like a simple video game.
It looks like I was gonna sayMinecraft, but it actually
doesn't look like Minecraft.
it looks, it looks like a video game,like a, like a simple sort of video game.
I may end up doing this, not usingit though, just to make it easier

(31:56):
for people to access, but with thesame principle of like, these are
different activities you can access.
It may not.
We'll see.
I was, I was, I was a little scaredto say it in case I go into, I need
to see what's gonna be what's going tobe like workable for parents and kids.
You know, and in terms of how manyactivities we'll have versus how much

(32:17):
we'll create kind of group activities.
So for example, the differencethere is like virtual drum
circle for our purposes, right?
Mm-hmm that could mean, I have abunch of different drum, like a body
percussion and percussion tracks thatthe kids have created with me in classes.
And that, that, that we show,and there's kind of different

(32:38):
options for how you join it.
Or maybe I'll have kind of one big drumcircle track that we sort of take a bunch
of different things and put them together.
And it's more like this is theone audio for the drum circle.
So some of these things,does that make sense?

Yeah.
So taking.
In that case, we said asynchronously.
So having each kid record a trackat a similar tempo, for example, and
then you would edit them together.
Is that yeah.
Yeah.
Is that what you're going with?

Okay.
So depending on, and I'm, I really likeco-design, mm-hmm, like the reason I'm
not like, and we will have one drum circlewith one drum circle track mm-hmm right.
Is because depending on your group,like you get, you get students
who are into different things.
Right.
And we'll also hopefully havesome adults too doing so.
Yeah.
So like, depending on their interests,we may choose for this to make activities

(33:25):
that are more or less complicated.
Right.
So that, like, we may have morethat students do each of their
own individual thing or may havemore like collaborative choices.
Right.
So that's recital, number one.
Do you have

any questions?
That's one that's that'sone of three recitals?

Yeah.
And I know that sounds complicated.
But this isn't asynchronous recital, right?
This is that through the term,we're preparing some short
activities, we're putting themtogether, we're doing some planning.
And then we end up with this kind of cool,like kind of interactive gallery of this.

So the recitals, like the presentation you're that, it's
not a, for that one, it's not a liverecital where you've all produced
that and you just can present it toparents and friends and all that.

Yeah.
I'm hoping we'll just leaveit online for a few weeks.

Oh, wow.

And think like, like I said, think of it as an interactive
gallery or like a, you know, and,and whether that's on gather town or
whether that's a different way, wepresent it to make it as technologically
flowing as possible for wow.
For everyone who needs toaccess it, which this is always
a thing with online lessons.
Right.
Keeping them, like using the technologyand having fun with leveraging that,

(34:30):
but also like keeping it pretty simple.
So that there's tons we can do with likealmost no extra technology, like where
it's literally just, just this, right?
Like I'm just being transmitted.
Through video and audio,I'm not recording things.
I'm not getting fancy.
right.
And, and I, I do like keeping it simple,but then there's, there's lots we can do.

(34:51):
I don't wanna make it hard for,for others to access either.
Yeah.
So then recital number two is more ofa straightforward online recital, like
more of a pre-recorded, which here we'redoing songs like, and or, and those
that, that could be improvised songs.
A lot of students choose,choose to do songs that they've
enjoyed from their method books.
Could be a pop song, but, you know,

but so those are like one student performing a solo piece.
Yeah.
Okay.

And that's the key difference between Kaleidoscope and between
the in person classes I'm doing?
Mm-hmm is that Kaleidoscope, we'redoing collaborative stuff, but it's
also about training as soloists.
Like we're also, and, and again,students can choose to collaborate a
bit extra, but it's, you know, they'rehaving some time that they're kind
of working on their own journey, not,not as, not in an ensemble context.

(35:35):
So the second recital is pretty easy toexplain it's that, that sort of straight
up pre-recorded video showcase of the kidsof what they wanna share of their work.
Got it.
And then the third recitals in personfor those who can make it mm-hmm.
And so I could, I could go into more onlike kind of how these are divided up and

(35:57):
stop I'll leave it at that.

Okay.
That's cool.
Yeah.
Well, keep us posted.
And if you have elements of that,you can share with, with our
listeners, cuz it sounds super cool.
But even hearing it I'm I, Iwill wanna see it in action, cuz
it sounds, sounds super cool.
But I don't have a, well, it soundslike with the kids, co-designing
it, each one can be a differentadventure, so I'm don't know.
Yeah.
What.
Trying to imagine what theseyeah, recitals will be like.

(36:20):
But especially the, yeah.
If the, the one that's on the gathertown or a similar one, the interactive
ones definitely would like to yeah.
See what that's about when it gets going.
Wow.
You're ahead of your time.
This is pretty space age.

Well, you know, like that's a, that is by design.
Yeah.
Like that's a conscious decision and it'snot that I'm, I'm, it's not about using
the technology just for the sake of it.
Like I'm saying we might use gather townjust because gather town's a fun option.
I could do the samething with Google drive.
Yeah.
And each gather town space.
Mm-hmm could be a folder in Google drive.

I just mean the whole, I mean the whole
thing, not just the gather town.
the whole, thing's a, well,

no, but that's that, that was an example.
But I mean the whole thing too, likeI'm, I'm consciously thinking, like what.
What are the good thingsthat I wanna include?
Like what is really helpful or reallysupportive and what do we wanna make
a little different than maybe how I'veapproached things in the past or how I've
seen others approach, approach things.

Yeah.
Well then you have somein person programs.

So a year ago I was like, I'm just gonna do online.
I'm just doing online guys.
It's only online.
I still obviously have a big focuson online and on digital content,
digital product, like just the, thebeing able to reach more people.

(37:42):
Right.
And like have a broader communityand do things like this with you.
But I found, I was having people askme locally about things happening in
person mm-hmm . I found, I was hearingfrom people that online was sort of
not an option for them, particularlyfor that age group I mentioned.
Where I find that as they're havingthat, that shift in capability

(38:05):
online becomes a lot easier becausethey're literacy skills increased.
And some of their other skillsare increasing at the same time.
I won't get into all that, butespecially because of their
literacy skills increasing.
So as I was saying in that rangefor some kids, we can still make it
work, but sometimes it's a littleeasier to start them not online.
I get that.
Mm-hmm I also have a six anda half year old and he was keen

(38:28):
to do some stuff not online.
And you know, I'm, I'm, if I'm gonnado in person stuff, it's kind of cool.
If I can do things that kind ofinclude my kid as a test subject.
Right.
And I can, I can, could.
It, it it makes the, the need very clear.
He's like, this is what, thisis what we should do, you know?

(38:49):
Mm-hmm and that was being, sorryto be specific about that is
when I was talking to him, he'sdone some of my online classes.
He will be doing some of my onlineclasses, but I was kind of like, I
was just thinking, you know, as I wasplanning for next year, like, what
does he think about what he wouldwant to do with other, you know?
And he said he wants to get togetherwith other kids and sing songs and

(39:13):
make up songs and play instruments.
And I was kind of like,yeah, that sounds good.
And like, again, some of thathappens online, but I said, oh, okay.
We can make this happen in
person.
In person I am doing, I.
One Other thing is, so my in-personclasses are at the Harmony Center in
Owen sound, which is a church that wasconverted into a community art space.

(39:38):
So we're in this, the sanctuaryformer sanctuary of the church thing,
I call it the auditorium which is abig, beautiful space with a balcony
and incredible acoustics, which I'mso excited to share just that like
acoustic environment with the kids.
Mm-hmm . But it's also pretty neatthat it's a big space with a balcony.
So we can do some like kindof spatial work as, as well.

(40:01):
So the in person classes are focusingon improvisation and focusing on
ensemble improvisation, I'll sayimprovisation and creativity, you know,
improvisation and creative processes,not all processes, creative processes
need to be totally improvised or,or like, or primarily improvisation.

(40:21):
But there's a lot of thatbecause I think it's an important
skill for a bunch of reasons.
And I think it serves thedevelopment of transferable skills.
Mm-hmm so we have Creative MusicFor Kids for ages four to seven.
So a kind of bridge between that earlychildhood music group stage mm-hmm and

(40:47):
group or individual music lessons stage.
So that like a child could, well,my son will be in Kaleidoscope Music
Kids, and he'll also be in CreativeMusic for Kids, cuz they're just
slightly different environments.
Because like I said, the in person isn'tfocusing on as much one on one to one type
stuff, no method book,, nothing like that.
It's focused on, on theensemble experience.

(41:10):
We have improv, team, which isfor ages six to 17, which is
interdisciplinary improvisation.
Music, movement, theater.
Maybe we'll get into some other art formsbut focus on music, movement, theater.
Ensemble improvisation skills.
And then we have Creative Rhythmand Voice Ensemble or Crave

(41:34):
music, which is all ages program.
By all ages.
I mean,

voice ensemble that's it was cave for a minute.
I, it was cave better.

I realized I don't remember.
Right.
No rhythm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And crave makes a lot more sensebecause that is the idea is that
we'll get that craving for all thebenefits of, of, of music that we get.
I've been describing it as a drumcircle and a choir smushed together.

(42:02):
That's all ages.
And by all ages, I meanlike ages 10 ish end up.
I mean, you know how it is with olderkids, they get a sense pretty quick of
whether it's the right kind of space forthem or whether they'd rather be with
just kids, you know, mm-hmm but I, I, Ireally value intergenerational programming
so that parents or grandparents andkids can, can make music together.

(42:24):
Yeah.
And those are the groups.

Wow.
That's amazing.
You need to come run those here too.
I,

well, yeah, you can run those there.
We can run them.
Have some sisters andsister groups going on.

No, no, no.
That's your job.
Oh, no.
That's yeah.
I definitely wanna hear more aboutthe interdisciplinary improv club.
Maybe that'll be, we'lldefinitely need to follow once.
That's going too.
Get a follow up on that.
Yeah.
Cause I could ask a millionquestions about that, but

yeah.
And so with these, it was a like,like I said, focus on ensemble work.
Cause I was thinking like, whydo we need to be in person?
Like, like one, like why dosome people not wanna be online?
I have a whole bunch of answers for that.
I know you have a wholebunch of answers for that.
Like we know it works betterfor some people than others,
for some context than others.
Like I'm not a, an, everything mustbe online, evangelist necessarily.

(43:12):
Right.
As much as I see tons of possibilityas well, but like, so, so what what's
most important about being in person.
right.
And so being in an inspiring uniquespace that gives us acoustic and spatial
experiences, mm-hmm that we wouldn'totherwise have and allows us to have the

(43:37):
experience of performing whether in anensemble or in like a featured moment.
Right.
Mm-hmm, in a big room because that'skind of intimidating, but if we're doing
it every week, that really gets us morecomfortable with that big room and that
kind of, that kind of space and thatkind of feeling and then like creative
ensemble work, that's being in person.

(43:57):
We can do a little morewith creative ensemble work.
Like you've done some onlineI've done some online, but there
there's, there are some things wecan do in person more effectively.

But like a, like a drum circle, you know, when you've
got, you know, when we're having aconversation like this, the latency
and delay is not gonna be a big deal.
And for some music, thingswe've work arounds, but certain
things that are rhythmically insync and grooving like that is.
Unless everyone's gotthe best internet around.
Yeah, but yeah, when you'rein that space together.
Yeah.
That's some of the, the magicalthings you can get from being in the

(44:27):
same space with people at this time.
Totally.
It doesn't work as well online and,

and the, like, you know, that in that I believe in the power
of building community online, butfor my local community, getting us
together in person bringing peopleinto this art space that I hope they'll
come into for other reasons as well.
Like there's something about thatcommunity building aspect about like the
social benefits we get from music mm-hmmand like the mood benefits from that.

(44:53):
And all of those things that I think,again, we can get some of online is
enhanced in person, the, the, just feelingthe rhythms, like mm-hmm, the physical
wellness and health benefits of, of music.
And then also, like, I, you know,bringing a variety of instruments, people
being able to try out some differentkinds of percussion instruments and

(45:15):
for the four to seven year olds havingthat group music class experience
for that age group that is a littledifferent online because we don't
have props and we don't have the sameauditor and visual spatial experience.
Mm-hmm

I guess one question that this is something we we've had some
conversations about is when you haveparents signing their kids up for music
class, like when you have like the babyand toddler class, then it's, you know,
people that want their kids to do that.
Oh, it's exploratory try all theinstruments and just have an experience
and they don't necessarily havesomething specific in mind, but as
they get older, you know, certainparents are like, okay, now it's time

(45:49):
for junior to get into piano lessons.
And I'm just wondering how, how it'sgonna work with your, sounds like you're
already getting some demand from people inyour community to have these classes and.
so it's, in some ways it's hasmore of that open exploration of
some of like what the kids do whenthey're, when they're younger.
But if there's some people specificallylooking for just piano lessons or

(46:11):
just ukulele lessons, and then mm-hmmif, if you think just cuz you're
pres, cause a lot of these are yeah.
Not program, you know, they're,they're very unique programs.
Mm-hmm and yeah.
How that's gonna work.
Well, the, yeah.
Getting people to sign up for somethingmaybe they hadn't heard of, but once
they hear about it, they go, oh wow.
This sounds like a great, yougreat community for my kid.
Yeah.

Like the idea with, with Kaleidoscope Music lessons is that
those online, like are piano lessons,like they're in a group, but like I
was doing a piano group last year.
Yeah.
The people who I was teachingpiano to one to one before are
now in Kaleidoscope Music classes.
Yeah.
So and I've had people locally ask meabout theater classes when I did teach one

(46:54):
to one piano and they were specificallylooking for theater, not for piano.
And I think.
I think there's some of whatyou are describing, right?
Like there's some people who aren'tlooking for an improv class, they're
looking for a piano class or a musicclass, and they're welcome to join
Kaleidscope music, but there's also likea lot of piano teachers and piano classes

(47:15):
out there, both online and in person.
And like if, if people are looking forsomething different than what I'm serving,
there's of course, tons of other options.
But what I've noticed over timeis that like, I think to myself,
oh, piano's pretty accessible.
Like keyboards, aren't that expensive.

(47:36):
Like if people really want to, theycan probably find used keyboard.
Okay.
That must not be the barrier.
Like, like, you know, et cetera.
Right.
I think, oh, I think of all these waysthat that piano is possible for people.
Right.
But I've also talked to parents that arebasically like, you know, maybe they're
signing one kid up and they're like, oh,but my other child, you know, they're

(47:58):
older, but they just don't focus as much.
There's no way they'd beable to do piano lessons.
You know?
Like, yeah.
There's some, there's some peoplewho ex and actually, I, I, that's
just an example around focus.
I mentioned to you, even in terms of adultstudents, I find there's people who are
like, oh, I'm definitely not a singer.
Or people say like, youwouldn't wanna hear me sing.

(48:19):
Mm-hmm well, I won'teven unpack that comment.
Right.
Yeah.
But yet they're into takinginstrumental lessons or vice versa.
People who are really comfortablesinging really like singing, but they
aren't as in, into instrumental stuff.
And so the, the, I, the improv class,I'm hoping that it can open the door
to improvisation for people who aren'tnecessarily going to be signing up

(48:42):
for one to one lessons mm-hmm or for,instrument specific lessons and who
might want to explore some music, butthey're, you know, more comfortable with
those theater aspects or vice versa.
I'm hoping that maybe people who take oneto one lessons with someone else might
come to this and have their, you know,gain improvisation skills that they can

(49:04):
then use with their other instrumentor, you know, gain some insight into the
theater world that they can then takeaway and, and transfer other elsewhere.
Or, you know, students from theKaleidoscope Music classes who are
already, you know, getting some of thisimprov that they can, you know, explore
that a little further in person and getsome of those ensemble aspects in person.

(49:25):
So I've, I've tried to createcomplimentary programs.
Mm-hmm if that makes sense.
And I've tried to kind of coverlike an age range of the types
of requests I typically get.
Not 'cause I have to serve everyonebut because I'm not sure where
else to send people otherwise.

(49:46):
And I would like to be able tohave those different age groups
experience those benefits.

Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, that's great.
Yeah.
There is often that gap in thatlike four to seven range, you know,
before kids might take traditionalmusic lessons, but they might
be too old for the baby classes.
And there's, mm-hmm, there's not, nota lot except for the parents that maybe
start their kid on violin at age four.
And that's not gonna not thebest fit for, for everyone.
But I, I like, I like youranswer that you're offering.

(50:11):
Well, yeah.
You know, my thoughts on that, thatyou're offering something unique and
like, Hey, well, if you're looking forsomething else, you can go find this other
person that does, if you want traditionalpiano method, book one on one lessons,
here's a hundred people that do that.
But if you want improvclub, you know, this is, and

in Kaleidoscope mm-hmm I would say the majority
of my, the kids in Kaleidoscopeare using method books actually.
100% of the children who Ipiloted the program with, huh?
Used a method book forat least part of it.
Like they may or may not have chosento have their quests and questions

(50:46):
time, which wasn't called that at thetime, be entirely in the method book.
Right?
Like they may have chosen towork on an improvised, like a, a
composition and some improvisingand some other things in that time.
Right.
But actually every single oneof the kids who did the pilot
was working in a method book.
The reason for that is becauseit helps 'em have something they

(51:07):
can look at in between lessonsand come back to you, right.
As much as they can and do do theimprovising activities alone also,
which is pretty cool to hear andsee, the method book is like, I
mean, method books actually have alot of instructions written in them.
So the students can, in some casework independently in the method book
in between, in between classes even.

(51:29):
So it's, I'm not like anti method book.
Like we actually like use the methodbooks and the method books are why it
works to do this like individual coachingthing, because like they can work on
it somewhat independently more or lessdepending, depending on the student.

Yeah.
I would love to see that in action.
How you, how you juggle all the,the, or even how you structure
the time and have the yeah.
Well, the answer is, yeah.
Someday, if you yeah.
Get that approved with parents orsomething, I would love to be a fly on
the wall or watch a, I just I'd love tosee one of the, one of the Kaleidoscope
classes in action, so I can see kind ofhow it all, how it all hangs together.

Well, and the answer is private audio channels.
So Muzie allows for basically everyone'saudio is shut down, but then you can open
up the audio with one .Student at a time.
Oh.
So as I'm giving that individualfeedback, all the students are
working way on their own projects.
Right.
And then I'm like opening the audiochannel without it's, as if they're

(52:27):
on their individual practice rooms.
I can see them all.
I see, unlike, unlike zoom rooms,I can see, you know, I can see
their fish bowls, so to speak.
Right.
And then I open that audio channel.
I can hear what they're working on.
Right.
I, I, and I that's cool.
And we can work individually without themexposing themselves to everyone, but we
do do some, some sharing and feedback.

Oh, I see.
That's a cool, that's a cool feature.

Yeah.
Yeah.
It works.
It works pretty well.

With our future sponsor.
Muzie.
Yeah.
Are you listening Sam.
Yeah.

Wow.
And, and the, the other thing withit, I mean, I could talk at length
about the benefits 'cause there'sa bunch of components to this.
Yeah.
All of the components are evidence based.
So they're all, this is more than wecan cover in this episode, but there's
reasons why each of those component.
Are in the program and there's reasonswhy they're in the program, how they

(53:18):
are and in the order they are . Yeah.
But one of the things is that, sowe have this individual time, but
then there's also time to share.
And so students are gettingto build that sharing muscle.
Because sharing is a bit scary.
Right?
Mm-hmm whether that's sharingwith feedback or without feedback,
like we've talked about thisin previous episodes, right?
Like even if we're prepared, evenif we're used to doing it, we can

(53:40):
still get sweaty in our heart races.
Yeah.
You know, we can still beuncomfortable so they can go excited.

It's like calling it a show and tell show and tell.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Cause they're excited about,they're usually excited about
doing that from kindergarten show

their, well that's the thing.
Yeah.
They can be excited andit can be motivating.
Yeah.
But it can also be challenging.
So that's why I call it.
Like I refer to as a muscle.
I'm not sure.
There's, you know, we get we,or, or we could say we just get
used to it through exposure.
Right.
Like we get used to sharing andhaving that kind of somewhat
intimidating experience of sharing,but we're doing it like every week.

(54:14):
So by the time the recital rolls around,like they're used to, you know, yeah.

There's less fight or flight or they feel more like, yeah,
if they feel like you're sharing,like you're talking to a friend or
part of the community, then it that'swhat we've talked about for too
sort of circumvent, you know, sidesteps, the fight or flight over time.
Once you feel safe sharing.

Talking about process, like I speak of this as if it's a means to
an end, like, oh, we do it every week.
And that just reallybenefits them for the end.
And like, I believe so strongly in this,that for each element, I wanna just
say like, this is why we're doing this.
Like, don't you see all these benefits?
And often I refer to what thosekind of benefits are at the end.

(54:58):
That's how we typically talkabout music lessons, right?
Like the satisfaction of a fantasticperformance at the end, right?
Or like the gift of music for the restof our, like, we really talk about it
in this like payoff in the future way.
Mm-hmm which aside from the fact thatthat is not a great way to motivate
ourselves, as I've mentioned to youand the science behind, there's a

(55:21):
bunch of interesting science behindthat in terms of using extrinsic
rewards that happen after the effort.
That's a whole other discussion.
What I wanted to say though, is thatthe sharing and the class, even though
I talked about it, like a means to anend is really a lovely little special
thing on its own in its own moments.

(55:43):
And if you don't mind, if I justshare a couple little reasons or
things about that, that I really love.
One is just hearing the kids givegenuine positive feedback to each other
off the cuff is, beautiful to hear.
It's beautiful to hear the kid whois giving the feedback, do such

(56:05):
a, like, say such caring things.
Like it's not like, like, youknow, just they'll genuinely say
like, wow, that was really cool.
or like, that was a reallycool song you wrote, like just
sounded really good, you know?
And the kid saying that means, sosomething different than me saying that
like when they hear it from their peerand so not all for the person giving
the feedback, it's a beautiful, caringmoment for them to be able to like,

(56:28):
share that positive feedback in that way.
For the student receiving it, it'sa beautiful moment because that's a
different kind of impact and it createsa different kind of classroom culture.
Like when it's not just me givingthe feedback as, you know, or
even a parent giving the feedback.
Right.
And the kids get to beinspired by each other.
Yeah.
But what I was gonna say is that whatyou may find surprising is that I equally

(56:51):
love it when students choose not to share.
Because so often we have a bigperformance and we are like, like, some
kids may wanna perform, but they'relike, can sometimes be some pressure
to where it's that performance.
Right.
Or even some coercion yeah.
Or bribery.
And also sometimes it can be like,oh, it's this one opportunity.

(57:13):
Right.
But like for students to be able tomake that choice and consent , and
to say, yeah, I'd like to sharetoday or to be like, no, I'm not in
that, at that point in my process.
Mm-hmm, like, I just love seeing themmake it that choice and like take kind
of responsibility for where they're at.
Or sometimes they'll be like, I onlywanna share up to this point because

(57:36):
that's as much as I've practiced.
Right.
Or.
Whatever, but ha having them, like, havethat ownership over what they share when
they share, if they share in that moment.
Like I love that just as much as likethe sort of successful performances
or like super cute feedback.

Anyway.
Yeah.
And then seeing someone who's choosesnot to share and listens for week after
week or month after month, and thenfinally jumps up with, with something
and it makes it that much more yeah.
More impactful for everyone.

Well, yeah.
And as we know, like some kids willlisten every week and you wish they
would share, but then some kidslike don't wanna listen as much.
They just wanna share their own stuff.
So it's nice being able to like,have that balance both ways.
Wow.
But, okay.
What about you?

Oh.

Can you tell me about what you're up to?
Cause I've I, you know, the moreyou can keep asking me questions
and I will keep talking about this.

I've I've noticed.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Not.
Yeah.
And not unveiling as much newprograms like what you are.
But I had yeah mentioned, I've had thissaxophone studio going, you know, one
on one, somewhat traditional lessons,but focused with often kids who are
playing jazz or improvising and, anddoing that, that's just been kind of

(58:55):
on ongoing for, for years, but reallybeen developing these community based
creative music, improvisation programs.
Ones, the game symphony workshop, where weuse some elements from improvised theater
games to make maybe the process, a littlebit more disarming and community based.
And people become a little morecomfortable in that environment with,

(59:16):
with games and activities collaboratively,improvising, composing their own music.
And then also I've been working withvarious school programs, high schools,
middle schools and universities aroundhere for various classes or, and have
kind of fallen into a, some sort of a,
my own, my own little niche, I guess.

(59:38):
Of kind of helping students get like thejazz program specifically, like get jam
session ready, or get jazz combos going.
Cuz so many of these programs are basedvery much in these large ensembles.
You've got a large concertband and marching band and a
large orchestra and a choir.
And then, you know, maybe 30 yearsago school started having these jazz
ensembles, but still so many of themwere run maybe even more like a, you

(01:00:00):
know, a military band or concert band.
We're learning this music, butthere's maybe a jazz style behind it.
Then there's some sections wherepeople are supposed to improvise and
maybe someone who's really into itor they're, you know, take lessons.
You've got a couple kids that are readyto jump up and improvise and play solos.
And everyone just kind of hidesback until it's time to play
the third trombone part again.
And, and so a lot of that going onthose big, you know, jazz competitions

(01:00:23):
and all this, but there's beenmore and more interest with that.
Really an experience of if you're justkind of hanging back and playing your
part and never sticking your neck outthere, it's not gonna be the deepest
jazz experience where you've got thiselement of contributing to the group
and being part of something biggerthan selves and supporting your friends
and all that, that we get, you know,the empathy and listening from an

(01:00:44):
ensemble, but also being able to expressyourself and share your point of view.
So I've been doing various, you know, the,I had, let's see, cuz that sort of game,
you know, theater game kind of stuff.
And I had that separated frommore jazz training and now they're
all sort of, they're all kind ofcombining together, but I would find

(01:01:05):
different ways to have a workshopexperience and it can be challenging
if you've got 20 kids in the room andthey're all expecting to play solos.
And if you're taking turns,you know, you play a solo.
Now you play, you know, likehow I learned, here's a bunch of
confusing chords and scales andwe're gonna stick a microphone
in your face and pass it around.
So you go between being bored and checkedout to like, oh crap, it's my turn.
I know I'm gonna sound bad andeveryone's gonna laugh at me.
So it was like, could be kinda annoyingor traumatic for some, for some kids.

(01:01:29):
So finding different ways tomake this work as a group.
So I teach lots of, lot of callresponse with everyone all at once.
Teaching, teaching tunes by ear and havingkids do their own variations and do call
response back and forth and mixing that upwith some of the more textural, you know,
games or do some conducted improvisation,which is sound painting, mixing those

(01:01:50):
together have been a program that has beenattractive to several of these programs.
I work a lot with this communitymusic school called Ja Seattle jazz
ed and getting that program going.
They were called jazz clubs.
You know, I have a new new name, butworking with, there was one group to
bridge the gap between kids that basicallylearned how to play in the first.

(01:02:14):
The first classes are just some basic,you know, how to put your instrument
together, how to make your firstsounds and how to get up to the first,
you know, there's, there's a lot,lot involved just getting the wind
instruments, working and articulating.
And, and all of that, but thenthere was a big gap between that and
the more advanced level ensembles.
So it's like, what's the, what's the gap.
And so I was helping design a programfor the kids to be able to learn.

(01:02:36):
We almost used no notation.
There are some charts, a little bit,but learned some music by ear, did
some of these community games, butthen they learned how to play solos
and had these songs memorized andwere ready to go to a jam session.
So he hosted some informal student jams.
They could come up and play the tune.
They learn, cuz so much ofthis music is really social.
And just being able to have thatjam session, experience and culture.

(01:02:58):
Which you don't always get in justjazz band, which as I said, feels
more like marching band where you'rean interchangeable little piece in
this, in this machine and you'renot less, less ownership over, you
know, over what you're playing.
So yeah, I'm, I'm in the process ofanother one of these big jazz programs,
that's very competitive, and winsthese national awards and they have a

(01:03:19):
relatively, kind of a new young director,and he wants to have some of the intro
kids who are in their third, big band.
You have this like 18 piece jazz band,but he wants me to help run this.
It's almost, what'syours called improv team.
This what's called improv club.
So the kids they're spending lesstime just rehearsing their ensemble
music and right away, they'regetting some more of those skills.

(01:03:42):
So I, yeah, I've fallen into doing this.
I don't work for any school.
Full-time not a full-time ensembledirector or even part-time anywhere,
but just as a guess, as a clinicianor contractor like coming to support
these programs, 'cause it's not,it's not really my, my jam to be
a, to be a full time band director.

(01:04:03):
But I like going into these programs.
I've done like summer workshops,one off workshops, helping them
build combos or in this case kindof an ongoing improvisation class.
That's been really cool.
I love, you know, and I like workingwith more advanced students too.
Sometimes if some that are like gettingready for grad school auditions and
working on more advanced things, butI've really found that niche of getting
people that can basically play theirinstrument, but haven't improvised

(01:04:27):
before might be terrified or, you know,getting them so like jam session ready.
And then, then some of them, they findthat that community and the camaraderie
you get when it's like student led,you know, there's some student led
jam sessions now for some of my formerstudents who are in these programs that
are now like some of are in collegeor have graduated recently and they're

(01:04:49):
putting together these outdoor jamsessions, I get to go to with all
these former students that are allinto, into having the, the jam culture.
So I've been, yeah, I got a few ofthese coming up and they're, you
know, I tailor these experiencesfor, you know, the format of these
different classes in schools.
And and I was doing a similar thingrecently when I was in my, a few

(01:05:15):
weeks ago, I, the Hawaii U symphonybrought me out to run their summer jazz
intensive, which was very sweet gig.
I actually recorded somereflections on that.
I may have a, this solo episode comingout on that, but kind of running they're
like jazz combos, which are usually likethree to six people, but these were a
little bit bigger and just doing all thosesame things, teaching 'em tunes by ear,

(01:05:38):
some of the community textural ensemblethings, but then having 'em, you know,
have a big performance and playing jazztunes and they had jam sessions every day.
So building, building those kinds ofexperiences and it's had, there seems
to be more of a, a need for it as thejazz programs, want to want students
to have those experiences and skills.

(01:06:00):
But, and as you've, I've beentalking about, I've done some like
improvisation retreats and for,for adults and I really, yeah.
It's like the idea of doing more ofthose where it's kind of our own.
I really like supplementing and servingsome of these other programs, but kind
of also, you know, building our own thingand having these workshops and retreats

(01:06:22):
or summer camps, things like that.
But at the moment I'm doing alot of this, you know, helping
serve the local jazz programs andthe, and the community and yeah.
Found a thing that's, youknow, there's a need for it.
And it's somewhat unique.
There's lots of jazz artists that comein and teach often like instrumental
coaching or something, but I'm tryingto yeah, design these whole programs.

(01:06:42):
Mm-hmm yeah, that, that'ssort of what I have coming up.
It's taking, you know, it's not that muchdifferent from what I've been doing, but
it's I'm into the, over the years thatI've been doing it, I'm starting to yeah.
Design more of the programs for theseschools instead of just kind of coming
in as a helper every now and then likebeing more involved with making the

(01:07:04):
whole music and jazz experience happen.
So anyway, any, I probablyhave some questions on that.
That's that's a quick overview.
I hope that was sort of.
I hope that was clear.
Clear's mud.
I don't know.

Lauren Best (01:07:15):
I liked how you talked about bridging the gap.
Mm-hmm because it's, I think whetherlike you were talking about folks
that kind of have some starter stuff,or maybe you're doing some of the
starter stuff, if we want to call itthat I, there, I mean, we can call
it foundational, but what I, yeah.
Or just like

Steve Treseler (01:07:33):
basic pre like proficiency,

proficiency.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But what I was gonna say is that, like theamount of that stuff can, can vary widely.
and then it tends to belike an experience, problem,
not an information problem.
And I think a lot of people think thatthey need music lessons or they need
a facilitator to come into their groupor whatever, because of an information
problem, which even 10 years ago,there wasn't as as many music resources

(01:08:00):
available online and certainly not, well

now our information problems, the other way, we've
got too much information.
That's the problem.

Yeah.
That's what I mean.
It's like, so we need a guide to makesure we're getting the right information
and that we're kind of on a, on trackto get to where we want to go in time
that we're not getting like too lost ina certain category of information that
like we're moving, you know, towards theright milestones on the right trajectory.
But or like when I was a kid, you know,I, the like the music resources, like

(01:08:26):
I had to like pay someone to tell mestuff, cuz I there, or I could maybe buy
books and find it, but I wouldn't evennecessarily know which books to buy.
Like it was all, it was all much moremaze like, you know, whereas now.
There's tons of information.
, you know, and not to say that thereisn't a role for teachers and mentors
and guides for all the reasons Isaid, but but to the, I think bridging

(01:08:46):
that gap is often experiential thing.
It's often, you know, I heard recentlyon a podcast, a scientist saying
that humans learn from experience.
We wanna front load experience.
And if humans learn from information,all we would need is textbooks, right?
Like we would just ship sometextbooks to each of these kids or
send them a, a list of links forlike informational YouTube videos.

(01:09:08):
And then they'd be set.

Yeah.
And, and things like that canbe guides through experience,
but, but not, not often.
And it's, it's wonderful thatall that information's there.
Right.
I had to re you know, replace acertain fuse in my car and I wasn't
sure if, you know, I get to look itup on YouTube and get the information.
I didn't have to hiresomeone for a private lesson.
I could just get theinformation and do the thing.
So mm-hmm, , that is quite handy,but yeah, in this case, Yeah.

(01:09:30):
Being able to make that anexperience when a lot of it is
part, part of it can be information.
Usually the problem is too muchinformation and it's confusing.
And, but also making that kind ofmaking the right kind of environment
and the right space where they feelcomfortable doing it and have a
good time and connect with theirfriends and then it feeds on itself.
So it's often more of a fear or, youknow, emotional regulation and community

(01:09:54):
thing that I'm putting together or not.
Yeah.
It's, if you're a music teacher andtrying to be a gatekeeper for information,
it's gonna be a hard time for you cuzthat's that may maybe, maybe in the past.
But also, yeah, when I talk aboutproficiency, cuz at a certain point
someone's first time making a sound, youknow, the creative thing can happen just
right away, your first lesson that youdon't need a certain amount of proficiency

(01:10:15):
to do something creative and improvised.
So even in beginning classes,we'll do the creative stuff just
for these particular things.
If it's gonna be with more of a jazz focusand we're gonna learn a tune together.
For that kind of experience, needthe proficiency of being able to make
some kind of characteristic sound.
They might know some note names,you know, so we're on the same page.
Mm-hmm so for those kind of classes,there is kinda like a prerequisite

(01:10:37):
level of where you need to be, butit's not super high, but as, yeah,
I wanna make it clear that you don'tneed to learn a whole bunch of scales
before you do something creative.
I mean, you can just, you can just, youcan do that from day one, but if I've
got a kids that are, you know, gonnabe ready to play in a jazz jam session
by the end of the quarter, then yeah.
There's a certain level of proficiencythat and with the saxophone kids, I

(01:10:59):
could be there as part of the proficiencyproficiency training, but not, not always.
And finding things that work well withpeople with, even if it's the same
age, they they're gonna be varyinglevels of technique and varying
level of theoretical knowledge.
So as soon as I get to anythingtechnical or anything too theoretical,
here's how you build the chord.
Some people are kind of lost right off thebat and some are bored and like hitting

(01:11:22):
the sweet spot is so hard with that.
Stuff.
It can be possible.
Mm-hmm but I do a lot more of theseconceptual things that people did varying
levels of experience or technique, orlike they can understand if we're talking
about how to maybe shape and buildintensity, or we're gonna take a theme
and make some changes to it, or we'regonna do question and answer phrases.

(01:11:43):
Yeah.
Or, or things like that.
And some people that maybe have moretechnique can flash their stuff a
little bit, but it's still gauging.
So a lot of, yes, certain, sothings that are more rhythmic and
phrasing and conceptual and talkingabout the form and the arc, there's
certain things that really canlatch in with what everyone's doing.

(01:12:05):
But yeah.
As soon as it gets too a technicaland theoretical, and that's often
how jazz improvisation in the earlyyears was taught like, well, here
you play this mode here and do this.
And here's a scale pattern andhere's a lick and all this, all
this stuff, which can be eitherconfusing or cookie cutter or.
Or some people are gobbling itup and other people are just are,
some people are just scared andthen throwing all that stuff on it.

Doesn't help.
Yeah.
Well, and I find that a lot of thatinformation is relatively quick and
easy to learn later in the journey.

Mm-hmm yes.

I, especially when I talk, when I'm thinking about children,
, mm-hmm but adults too, like reallyfor any, any journey curve, but
especially when it's children who arelike developing their, and, and as I
was talking about, like in those earlystages, trying to get like some of this
stuff memorized can be really slow.
And it can just take a lot of time.

(01:12:57):
Like, you know, I that's awhole other subject around
memorization and things like that.
But like, there's some technicalconcepts that we're more, that we're
more likely to try to get childrento learn all the names or terminology
around things when they're a bit older.
It's not that you can't teachit to them at a younger age.

(01:13:18):
It's just like a, a cost benefitthing around like how long
it's gonna take them, you know?

Absolutely.
And the benefits and startingwith all the, oh yeah.
I was say, and starting with allthe notation right away, this, this
nonprofit, I talking about jazzed, or I was running those jazz
clubs I was doing over the summer.
Did like a weeklong intensive oflike, learn to play your instruments.
So I was working with theclarinets, like beginning.
They didn't know how to put it together.
And by the end we actually learnedthis little Coltrane song by ear with
a couple parts and they were playing.
But for that, there werelike, no music stands.

(01:13:45):
We used no notation.
I might have had a little, at some pointI gave 'em a handout to show them what we
were playing, where it was on the staff.
We just did it all by ear, byrote and by modeling, and they
learn and they learn quick.
Cuz yeah, so often cuz they'rein band right off the bat.
It's like, okay, well here's thetrouble cliff and here's the meter
and all these abstract symbols andkeeping track of the note names and
where they are instead of, and thephysicality of just maneuvering this

(01:14:07):
awkward instrument and making a sound,mm-hmm is, can be enough of a barrier.
Someone's just focusing on that.
Yeah, it was really cool.
And doing it in that way.
And, and as you said, once you havelike, in, in this area, if you've
got kids that learn some easiertunes and they're jamming and they're
really into it, then later on, theywanna play more difficult music.
That's when I can be like, okay,well now we need the foundation

(01:14:28):
of, you know, knowing your majorscales mm-hmm and we're shifting.
Whatever you wanna learn, what the Dorianmode is or how to build the seventh chord.
Like if they're already hungryfor it and they've had the
experience and they love it.
And they're like, all in, then wecan go through the mountain of like
technical work and they're ready for it.
Cuz they like haveexperienced the benefits.
And then we go into more of likethe, there's a kind of a mountain

(01:14:49):
of, a very small mountain, afoothill of theory and technique.
And it's like, Hey, you can jam on these.
There's some of these like beginner tunesthat don't change keys and they're groovy
and we can learn 50 of those if you want.
But yeah, your friends are playingsome of these more advanced songs
than we get into the, and sothat's a huge part of what I do.
It's frontloading it with other stuff withthe community building and with rhythm and

(01:15:11):
variations and all those things that I wastalking about and then doing the chords
and theory later, like that's one of mybig teaching licks, doing it that way.
And it's, just to not how not, how likethe, you know, the jazz pedagogy land is
very heavy in the, in the other stuff.
Yeah.
And once someone's ready for it,then you can find all that online or
wherever there's no shortage of well,

well, exactly.
Yeah.
And like, and I should say whenI, I I tend to agree yeah, I do.
I do.
For some, for, depending on thecontext, sometimes I do do notation
fairly early, but in sometimes withnonstandard notation or there's,
there are different approaches.
And I will mention that forsome kids I've found who are
like pre pre-literacy, right.

(01:15:54):
Or like, they're just kindof, they're pretty young.
They're just learning to read.
I found occasionally.
They really get notation.
It's like, as they learn to read,they learn notation and it's like,
yeah, it seems the same to them almostlike they just get it right away and
it's super supportive right away.
That's not always the case.
. Yeah, but I feel like when it is,sometimes if you just dip their

(01:16:16):
toe a little, they can, they canreally, you know, I don't wanna
say take it from there, but likethey can really build upon that.

Mm-hmm

but I, I heard a, a, well, I was talking to a, a former
primary school teacher about storiesand about how kids can tell a story
before they can write down a story.
Mm.
And I was kind of thinking, I was justthinking of the, the parallels there,
how like, sometimes some kids really vibewith notation and it helps them sometimes,
you know, sometimes kids don't vibewith notation and it takes them longer.

(01:16:49):
Kind of like how some.
Learn how to write a story prettyearly and they can actually
write a fair bit of a story.
Right.
Mm-hmm but for other kids, like,they're really not going to get
there quite at the same rate of beingable to write down a story, right?

Yeah.
Well, a kid can, you know, tell youthey're hungry long before they can write
it on the note and say, Hey mom, feed me.
You know?
So it's,

and so that we should give the kids an opportunity to tell stories
without hiring, to write them down.
Yeah.
So to speak right.
In a, in a musical sense.
Yeah.

I'm yeah, huge on that in all these workshops.
But it's funny when I get back into liketeaching saxophone lessons, got some
kids coming over, like notation comesin early, oftentimes I'm getting 'em
ready for band and you know, so I'm yeah.
As I'm helping these other systems,like I would, and I probably should.
It's funny.
A lot of those beginning lessons arenot for all this creative talk I do.
And creative media I'm puttingout there a lot of the, yeah.

(01:17:38):
Some of the basic elements of like,Hey, let's play the instrument.
Learn how to read.
It ends up.
It certainly could be more creative.
I sometimes just kind of default to howit's done or how I was, how I learned.
Yeah.
And, you know, but then putting inthose things and learning by ear.
But yeah, we end up doing a lot ofnotation right off the bat, just cause
I want to make sure, you know, a lot oftimes parents are like, Hey, you know,

(01:18:01):
ju junior wants to pick up the instrumentand join, join the band in the fall.
So I have to get themready on those skills.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Not always in the, in the way thatI would introduce them myself.
So

yeah.
Yeah.
Well, and sometimes too,that's a good point.
And that's the reason that like,I'm not anti notation, I'm not anti
methody book, you know, becauseit gives us shared vocabulary and

oh, this saxophone method, books are so much worse than
the, the piano ones are just like, wellsequenced at bright colors, the saxophone
ones are, I'm hoping someone may yeah.
Made one that make is.
I've got a love, hate relationship withsome of these method books, but a lot of
the ones that people have just been usingby default are very outdated and like.
That fingering hasn't actuallyexisted on a saxophone since 1934.

(01:18:42):
So we're gonna cross that out.
Like that's

I think we could do all a whole, a whole.
Episode just on this.
Yeah.
Before we wrap up, I haveanother question for you though.

Yeah, yeah.

And that is I'm making sure this is actually a question okay.
But hopefully by the end ofthis will happen, that also box.
Okay.
It'll be a question questionof somewhere that is that.
So like often in the context I workwhen I'm not facilitating groups out
and about, but you know like pianois often a solo instrument voice.

(01:19:13):
Not always, you know, sometimes we'resome, some people have more experience
in voice ensemble, but often ifI'm doing individual lessons with
someone it's more of an individualexperience where people are trying
to develop their vocal technique.
Mm-hmm, , it's more ofan individual experience.
Whereas what you described,there are folks who are, it's
primarily an ensemble experience.
Mm-hmm , you know, and so I guess, I guesswhat I'm wondering is whether like, as

(01:19:41):
you're developing, playing, like these,this ex the experiences and the skills
in these, in, in, in these folks, do youthink that would be different if you were
working with you know, , do you find thepiano players in the group are different?
mm-hmm but what I mean is like, doyou think that, have you noticed that
different depending on the degree towhich, the, you know, the folks that

(01:20:06):
you're working with are kind of morefocused on their own individual journeys.
Like perhaps some of the postsecondarystudents you work with V versus,
you know, maybe high school bandstudents who have this sort of core
ensemble experience, but it might notbe a creative ensemble experience.

Yeah.
So there's like we were talking about,you know, the downside of doing, you
know, if you're taking piano lessons, Imean, one thing that's wonderful about
is you can work on these solo piecesand it's a complete musical experience.
Yeah.
So you can go, go down to your pianoand play pieces of music and they're
complete and have that experience.
And I like the littlebit that I do play piano.
It is nice that you don'tneed the whole band.

(01:20:44):
You've got, you can be the wholeorchestra at the keyboard, but they
run into the problem of maybe nothaving that community experience to
feel like they belong to something.
Cuz they're so isolated.
And a lot of band band students,I mean, You know, win, wind band.
Rock band's a differentthing, but like wind band.
Concert band at school, jazz bandthat they've got that community.

(01:21:05):
And they're, you know, playing at thefootball games and going on trips.
And you've got someone,you know, got the leader.
You've got your friends that they havethat community experience big time, but a
lot of them become very dependent on that.
That you're that you need someonetelling you what music you're
gonna play, where you're gonna go.
And then later on, if they're notplaying music seriously, it's like, oh,

(01:21:26):
I don't have time for band in college.
So I'm gonna stop playing.
Like they don't have that connectionwith their instrument to play.
You know, someone who might love playingbassoon in the orchestra maybe feels less
passionate about, they might be practicingtheir parts on bassoon, but they're not.
It's not the same thing without the wholeensemble and all your friends there.

(01:21:48):
And so, I mean, even during the pandemic,obviously a lot of students work working
on unaccompanied pieces like to play.
So you can have that completemusical experience, like writing
music, playing unaccompanied pieces,and some that were more advanced.
We would do some like Bach, violinpartitas and cello suites that were,
you know, adapted for saxophone thatwere designed to be solo pieces.
And I like playing both, 'causeI'm not practicing something, and

(01:22:09):
trying to imagine that there's apiano accompanist or imagining an
orchestra that's not there, that'sactually a complete musical experience.
But some of the kids that yeah,end up writing their own music or
putting together their own ensembles,those are the ones that seems
to be a predictor of people thatwant that continue playing, right.
Some need a band to play inand someone to tell 'em what

(01:22:30):
to do in order to keep playing.
And you can find that, but then otherswill, you know, learn, you know,
learn their own songs off of YouTube.
Or the ones that have a little more,independence or initiate things.
They're the ones that tend tolike continue, no matter what
situation they're they're at.
I mean, that, that's, that's the one, theone thing, some of these kids that are

(01:22:52):
in these programs, they're competitiveand they travel and win awards and
they've got these screaming audiences,but then when those support systems are
gone, then it's like, you're alone inyour apartment with your saxophone and
you don't have your parents screamingfor you at the jazz competition anymore.
You know, once that's all gone,where's the connection to the music.
Yeah.

(01:23:13):
And it can involve finding,finding more people.
But so I, I, I just see that as anopposite problem of the person who just
plays guitar or piano by themselves,you know, there's, I, I, yeah, I . Yeah.
You have the, yeah, complete.
Sorry.
They have the, so the solo being ableto have the solo experience or the

(01:23:33):
group experience, but being too stuckin just one or the other sometimes
can lead to problems later on.

Mm.
Yeah.
And that's a, that's an interestingquestion for another episode.
Yeah.
About whether playing a solo instrumentor a, like a self-contained yeah,
instrument or an instrument witha broader frequency range or an
instrument that is often played soloor whatever, whether that leads one
to have greater musical independence.

(01:24:02):
Or mm-hmm, be more likely to likehave intrinsic motivation rather than
extrinsic motivation or et cetera, cetera.
But I think the different like that,I think you, you touched on something
really important there in terms offinding ways of self initiating mm-hmm

(01:24:23):
creative processes or musical goals.
You.
Know, I have definitely beenalone in my apartment or
alone in my house or whatever.
Like it's taken a long time, to developmy own tools and techniques mm-hmm and
strategies and mindsets to I mean, well,maybe I, I think that, but I mean maybe

(01:24:49):
in a way I was kind of intrinsicallymotivated from the beginning because I
was writing music from such a young age.

Mm-hmm.

But I think despite writing music from such a young age, I also know
the pain of feeling blocked or feeling

mm-hmm

like I'm looking for structure or supports or extrinsic
motivators or those kinds of things.
Yeah.
So I, yeah, that, but, but that havingthat kind of sense of not just drive
from within, but desire from within

mm-hmm

I love that you said that you thought that was kind of a predictor
of future success or future ambitions.

Yeah.
Or just life maybe.
Sure.
Like lifelong musicianship.
I think that there's some kind ofinitiating, but realizing even when I was
in windows of where I was like practicinga lot on my own, it was still in the
context of like being in a school whereI had other people that were doing it
too, and jam sessions to go to mm-hmm
So when you're feeling really isolated,like during a pandemic, I'm like, oh,
that's a different feeling than workingon your craft alone and going back out

(01:25:46):
and playing with people rather than justlike really being really being shut down.
But yeah, the drive yeah.
Well, I guess I can wrap upwith one of my favorite quotes.
Maybe I bring this up by Bob Ross,you know, the paint TV, painter.
I was him for Halloweenonce, but I brought, yeah, I
bring this one all the time.
He, he, a quote that was thattalent is pursued interest.

(01:26:10):
Mm.
May have said that in theshow, but coming back to it.
So it's that maybe there's somethingintrinsic that makes you interested in
something, but then continuing to do it.
So someone who gets veryskilled at something.
It's not like anyone drop dropped outof the womb, figure skating or playing
an instrument or being really goodat chess or what, whatever, but it's

(01:26:30):
something they're interested in andthen enjoying the process of doing it.
Regardless of your skill level, continuingto pursue that until someone was
like, oh, Lauren, you're so talented.
I wish I was talented and was like, well,I, yeah, one day I wanted to tell my,
when my dentist said that to me and I'mlike, oh, you're so lucky you you're, you
know, have the talent to be a dentist.
I wish I could do it.
I just don't have the talent for it.
And, you know, yeah.

(01:26:51):
That'd be ridiculous.
You could go to dental school too.
It's the same same thing.
But yeah, that there may, you know,how much, you know, what is there
some, you know, natural gift, how muchthat plays into it, which I think the
research is like a lot less than wemight expect, but I just like that.
If you're, if you've got the interestand you pursue it, like that's where it

yeah.
And if you keep pursuing your interest,then yet end up pursuing a podcast.
Yeah.

Uhuh.

Well, it's been the time always flies.

Yeah.
So it really does.
We, we succeeded at comingup with another fun episode.
We didn't end up.
We said this one will be pretty short.
Look what happened?
We gotta cut it off after thatwas that's how it's gonna go.

But if we forgot anything, mm-hmm please get in
touch and ask us your questions.
If there is more we can follow up with,if there's something that was very
confusing, if there is something thatyou'd like to know more about, or if you
have suggestions for future episodes.
Yeah.
Please.

You email us.
Yeah.
At hello AT infiniteimprovisation.com.
Okay.
Thanks for listening until next time.

Thanks.
Remember to subscribe andwe'll see you again soon.

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