April 21, 2022 • 52 mins
S1 E3: Who Are We? Part 1
Infinite Improvisation Podcast: adventures in music and creativity with Steve Treseler and Lauren Best.
Learn about your hosts Steve and Lauren—where they are coming from, and why improvising and creativity are important in their lives.
For a transcription of this episode and more: https://infiniteimprovisation.podbean.com/e/who-are-we-part-1
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Episode Transcript
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Steve Treseler (00:07):
Welcome to the Infinite Improvisation Podcast:
adventures in Music and Creativity,with Steve Treseler in Seattle and
across the continent and across theborder, got Lauren Best in Ontario.
Lauren Best (00:22):
Yay.
Happy to be here again onzoom across time and space.
Steve Treseler (00:28):
So for the third pilot episode, we will be talking
about our stories a little bit.
This is the who episode.
We've covered a bit of why we're doingthis, why the conversation is important,
what, what improvisation is and isn't,and today learn a little bit more about
myself and Lauren and, you know, we'rejust getting to know each other as well.
Only, you know, known eachother for two months too.
(00:51):
So we're, um, learning about each other'sstories and practices, all of that.
So.
Lauren Best (00:58):
And y'know kind of how we, how we got to where we are and what we,
what we've been picking up along the way.
Steve Treseler (01:06):
Yeah.
So.
We decided we're actually notgoing to go chronologically.
We're going to bounce around and tell somestories and see, and see how things go.
I guess I've got a, Igot a question for you.
I know you were the PoetLaureate for Owen Sound.
Tell us about that andforgive my ignorance, but
what does a Poet Laureate do?
Lauren Best (01:25):
Ah, yeah, so the Poet Laureate is an official
position for a given area.
So Canada has a poet Laureate,you know, often it's a, it's a
country or a city or municipality.
Um, so Owen Sound has aPoet Laureate program.
It's actually one of the fewPoet Laureate programs that's
privately funded through sponsors.
(01:45):
Um, it's currently administeredby the library in Owen Sound.
And so the role of a Poet Laureate is to.
Elevate poetry and educate aboutpoetry and be an ambassador
of poetry in the community.
Um, sometimes that mayinclude writing poetry.
So for example, writing poetry forparticular events or reading or
(02:11):
performing poetry, whether there'ssomething written specifically for that,
or not at, um, official sort of events.
So I, I presented poetryat Owen Sound City Council.
Uh, there's different types ofPoet Laureate programs, right?
So there's different, uh, sometimesdifferent focuses or themes or different
expectations of Poet Laureates, ordifferent ways they're invited into the
(02:35):
community and, and sort of different waysthey carry out their tenure, so to speak.
I'll pause there.
Any questions so far?
Steve Treseler (02:44):
Okay, keep going.
Lauren Best (02:46):
So in my case, uh, the focus of my tenure was on children.
So it was decided before the, uh,before the call for applications went
out, that that would be the focus.
And so I knew that going in and the, uh,application I made was, focused on that.
Um, and then, so throughout my tenure,I was trying to focus my efforts on
(03:10):
children and poetry for children, whichof course figuring out how to best
approach that, um, you know, whether,
so I did some school visits.
I did some things for parents andlittle people, uh, because that's
something I have a background in.
So, um, in my case I kind of.
Uh, like within the position used mystrengths, as well as like consulting the
(03:33):
community and the, the, uh, committee Iwas involved that that helps steer, that
helps advise that's the word, advise theposition, um, to sort of decide what,
what that meant in, in my case- and noteverything I was doing was for children.
I was of course, like doingthings that weren't involving
(03:53):
children as well, but that was.
The sort of directive I had going in.
Steve Treseler (03:58):
Yeah.
So, so these days, yeah.
How does the poetry interact withyour, with your music practice?
I know you've got your book ofpoetry that you're, you're in the
process of publishing and, you know,I was just actually listening to
your album the other day as I wasdriving back from my gig, your song
songwriting project, which I imagine.
Yeah.
There's an obvious interplay therebetween poetry and music, but yeah,
(04:21):
with your music teaching practice.
And how much of those, those twodisciplines are integrated these days.
If it feels like you put your poetryhat on to work on publishing this
book versus your your music practice.
Lauren Best (04:33):
Right.
Well, there's differentaspects to it, right?
So when it comes to working on publishingthe poetry book, If I'm being totally
honest at the part, at the stage, I'm ata lot of that is about being a producer.
I'm working on a, on a publishing andproduction pro you know, like we're
kind of a project as opposed to actuallywriting the poetry at this point.
(04:55):
So interestingly, like my skills fromhaving, you know, recorded an album
as a musician are carried throughprojects projects as a musician.
Apply in that sense, but I'm alsolearning about the differences as
well, but I'll answer the questioncreatively instead and talk about,
more about like that side of things.
(05:16):
So I think I if if I think back, youknow, about the evolution in my practice,
I would say, I think I started as apoet in some ways, because I was writing
poetry before I was writing songs.
However, if I go back even more,was I really writing poetry before
I was writing songs or was I as achild just really doing both, you
(05:39):
know, and, um, and kind of engagingin, in both like very spontaneously.
But, uh, when I, like, you know,as I was starting to become aware
of my own creative practice thatwas manifesting and, writing poetry
before it was coming out in songs,then I kind of became a song writer.
(06:01):
Right.
So I, I was writing songs.
I was performing, um, songs that Ihad the sort of singer songwriter.
Um, I was, I was looking for the rightword, not a self image, I suppose, right
where I was, especially as a teenager.
Right.
given encouragement and opportunitiesspecifically as a singer songwriter.
(06:25):
Right?
So I was much less focused on poetryand at that time, I wasn't, I hadn't
really been encouraged to write poetrynearly as much, you know, like just by
naturally what was happening around me.
It hadn't, I hadn't felt nurtured as apoet in the same way as, as a songwriter.
And it felt that poetry was avehicle to songwriting, right.
That if I was writing poetry, itwas to eventually write a song
(06:47):
because that's where I could play.
And that's what, what, you know,what was more in alignment with
my goals of performing and,and nurturing a music career.
So then having done a whole bunchof music stuff, and then coming
back to poetry, sort of, I neverstopped writing poetry, but.
Being asked to focus on poetry as faras Poet Laureate, which I should say.
(07:11):
I also did music as Poet Laureate.
And before my tenure, the PoetsLaureate previous, they actually had two
poets, two people sharing the positionand it was a musician and a poet.
And the musician was also lyricist,so they like worked together.
And so there was already kind ofin the history of the program,
this, this musical integration.
Um, and I was using music too, but atthe same time, it invited me to really
(07:33):
focus on poetry and kind of allow myskills and my interests and my creativity
in, in that to be poetry without feelinglike there's a next step for it, feeling
that the poetry itself was enough and.
So that was a cool thing.
And because it gave me this focus too,of, of a directive and imperative to be
(07:58):
the thing, to be the Poet Laureate, to bethe transformation, to be the creativity.
Right.
It meant that I was engaging withpoetry in a lot of different ways.
So sometimes that wasin a community context.
Sometimes I was workinglike directly with children.
Um, both in terms of, forgenerating creative ideas or for
(08:19):
like increasing their capacity andskill and amplifying their ideas.
Um, sometimes that meant I was justworking on my own creative practice,
but exploring things in, in maybenew ways because it, because of the
context,
Steve Treseler (08:34):
well, we didn't talk about doing this.
This might be a good time to workthe space, time continuum, continuum,
and actually edit in that, likelistening to a sample of your music.
You can throw that in and post.
in that'd be cool.
Throw in one of your, from yoursongwriting project, which was,
which is really cool project.
And it's very, well-produced likeyou've got a lot of arrangements and
horns and like some pretty suffix,sophisticated ensemble arrangements too.
(08:55):
So did you, was that all stuff that you,that you arranged or how did that all get.
Yeah,
Lauren Best (09:01):
in terms of that project.
Uh, so I did self produce that,but I had, um, associate producers
who I worked with who helped me.
So I was very, um, nurtured.
I would, I would say, um, by others.
Um, so I wrote all those songswhen I was in high school.
In grade 12.
(09:23):
So my last year of high school,I started making that album.
It might have even been a little before.
Great grade 12, and I was kind ofhard at work making this thing.
I ended up not going to universityat that time because I was like,
okay, I got to finish this album.
University is going to have to wait.
Um, cause I clearly haveto finish this project.
I didn't want to, um, sideline it.
(09:45):
Uh, Uh, for the hornarrangements, I didn't do the horn
arrangements, arrangements myself.
I worked with arrangers.
I worked with session musicians.
Um, does that answer, doesthat answer your question?
Steve Treseler (09:58):
Yeah.
Yeah.
About the process.
I'd say which, which, which, which,which tracks you in a drop drop in later.
Um,
Lauren Best (10:11):
Well, interestingly, actually the, uh, The Nihilism Song, which is,
it's also so funny for me to look backat, I dunno if we'll pick that track
where we can return to this in post.
Um, but one of the, that, thattrack from it, I had a friend
do a dance piece to that track.
And so it was really neat.
(10:34):
Seeing what I've been working sohard on an in studio, kind of living
on its own and, and intersecting,uh, with someone else's creative
practice and someone else's study, um,and, and arts practice in that way.
And I mean, I, I feel so luckythat I just got to work with the
musicians I did on that album.
(10:54):
And in terms of improvisation, aswe talked about in the last episode,
Probably all the episodes of our yeah.
You know, uh, session musicians and,and, uh, improvisation in the context
of recording and, uh, like coming upwith arrangements through improvisation.
And that was an awesome process.
And that was amazing to see andinspiring and, uh, just, just awesome
(11:20):
to collaborate with people kindof in that, in that creative zone.
Steve Treseler (11:23):
All right.
So Lauren song from grade 12from Sticker Collection, which
you can go, buy on band camp.
All right here, here's abit of the Nihilism Song
Lauren Best (11:42):
And what about for you?
So when I described that process Yeah,versus and like, comparing that to maybe
the first album you did, or other, otheralbums you did, like how, tell us a little
bit about, about your background andprocess when it comes to studio albums.
Steve Treseler (11:57):
Sure.
Yeah.
I, from all the music I grew up listeningto, you know, I still really like the.
You know, the container of an album,you know, a journey from beginning
to end, I guess that would fitthe physical medium at the time,
you know, at 30 to 45 minutes.
So, uh, when I first I think I wasmaybe in my, yeah, in my mid twenties
(12:20):
and I put together my first albumresonance and it started with a
group that I put together after.
So I went to.
So I grew up in the Northwest,went away to music school.
I studied jazz saxophone at New EnglandConservatory in Boston and came back to
the Northwest and wanted to put togethera group to play some of my own music.
(12:41):
And that's, that's when I was goingout to jam sessions all the time,
just meeting people, getting a feelfor, for other folks in town and
how they played and other concerts.
And I had an idea for, uh,an ensemble to put together.
And, you know, some of themactually, I hadn't even met like
the guitar player, Chris Spencer,who's now a good friend of mine.
I've recorded at his home studio.
(13:02):
He's helped mix my lastcouple of projects.
I just heard him play andpeople recommended them.
And, uh, there's something Irecommend to people getting started
now rather than like, Hey, let'sstart a band and rehearse every week.
I actually just hired them for a gig.
So as a jazz musician, it'slike, Hey, I've got a club gig.
I can guarantee this muchmoney, which I wasn't going to
get guaranteed from the club.
I was maybe going to lose money.
I just wanted to get thesepeople together, rehearse and
(13:23):
they were all down to do it.
And got uh, got these folks togetherand got Don Clement, amazing pianist.
Who's now in the Denver area.
And these folks are, it started withI'm going to hire them for something.
And then over time they became friends andcollaborators and we've worked together.
So it was a group.
We had done that, a few, a handfulof shows, but it wasn't a band
(13:44):
that was gigging all the time, morevehicle for, uh, various original,
mostly my original music, but otherthings that I liked covering and
some of the other band member's
pieces and.
Then I had it at some point I wasactually taking a, taking a walk
in the woods through Carkeek Park.
And I had just had this moment whereI'm like, oh, I have an idea for
(14:05):
this Kenny Wheeler chorale that Ilove that would flow into this thing
that I wrote a couple years ago.
And I just had an idea for the arcof that album, like, oh, this could
work and I pieced it together.
So there's some albums I've beena part of as jazz musicians.
Hey, we're going to record a bunchof tunes and see what turns out good.
And then we'll figure outwhat order to stick them into.
But most of my projects havehad an idea for like the
beginning to end, like what the.
(14:26):
Um, the album is going to be, and there'slots of surprises along the way, but
then once I had that idea for that, yeah.
Uh, put, put the band together andwent recorded some at Chris Spencer's
home studio, the guitar player, andsome in another small, small studio.
And I did some horn overdubs.
So there's a lot that was very live andinteractive improvisations, but then
(14:50):
also, some editing and post, right?
Yeah.
Over dubbed a whole chorale ofsaxophones or added some extra
guitar layers or things like that.
So there's some, some elements wherewe're using the studio as an instrument
to warp space and time as, as you said.
And, uh, and that, that is, uh,quite, uh, yeah, it's, it's, it's
(15:11):
wonderful to have that portfolio.
I mean, it's a challenging process, justlike, oh, I'm excited to do this thing.
Then we record and get in the middleof it in the middle of mixing and.
Hmm, then you suddenly hateeverything and then, okay.
No, I said not that bad and, you know,going, going, going through that and
learning through the process of, youknow, I really wanted the product to
be like, feeling like a final product,which it did, but it, as I go, it's
(15:32):
really documenting these different,different parts of my journey.
So now I have, uh, four albums as a,as a leader and the process has been
similar, but different different projects,different people, different sounds.
But I kind of had like thisidea of here's maybe when.
The arc of the albumis, is going to be here.
Here's the concept, which isdifferent than maybe a, than a, a
(15:54):
gig where it's, Hey, we'll try this.
We'll try some of that and callsomething else on, on the fly.
So there's a mix of know, a lotof improvising on all of them, but
also some predetermined structure.
And things to and edits and fixes later.
Yeah.
Lauren Best (16:09):
It's interesting.
You mentioned like the shape ofthe whole album, because when I was
recording my album, I wasn't sure aboutthe order I would put it in, at some
point I did decide upon the order.
And I remember I wrote out allthe song names on little pieces of
paper, and then I like laid themout so that I could rearrange them.
And then.
(16:30):
You know, thought about it and, and,and adjusted things a little more.
But I had, I, like, I knew I wanted torecord this, um, collection, so to speak,
the album is called Sticker Collection.
Uh, but the reason I wanted to do thatis because I'd written these songs when
I was like 14 to 17 in high school.
And.
Like I needed to wrap that up.
(16:52):
Y'know, like I was like,okay, these are done.
Like, this is what I've been playingat the T once I started recording it,
I'd written other songs by that point.
But there was this kind oflike clear group of songs.
And I was like, well, if Idon't record these now, like
when am I going to record them?
Like, even as a 17 year old or 17,18 year old person, I know 17, 17.
(17:15):
I, I knew I wasn't going to want to berecording the music that I'd written in
high school at a later date necessarily.
Um, or certainly that themoment would be different.
So I was like, okay, like I said,Almost a responsibility to do it.
Like, I don't know whyI wrote these songs.
I don't know where they came from.
Like I'm still in high school.
I haven't figured anything outguys, but like, I guess a better
(17:37):
like, like finish them off and, uh,and, and have them be in the world.
And, uh, in, in that recorded form.
Steve Treseler (17:46):
Yeah, it's, uh, it's important to document it when it
feels, when it feels like it's theright time and the vibe is good.
Like that's, um, time to do it.
With my last recording project.
This EP called The Snowline Suite,kind of mountain themed music, but it
was a, it started with a collaborationwith my friend, Annie Booth.
She's a pianist in the Denver area.
Another one.
(18:06):
Two, two pianos in Denver.
I brought up, but we, we met at aworkshop in Banff for the three week
Jazz and Creative Music Workshop,met people from all over the world
and, and we played and, and, and westayed in touch and she invited me
to Denver to play a couple of gigs.
And I brought her to Seattle.
We did like a two citytour, which worked well.
Cause I showed up there andshe booked a bunch of gigs.
I played with her band and thenshe came to Seattle and vice versa.
(18:27):
So the booking was easier causewe just tapped into our community.
So I was a fan of the twocity tour and yeah, I wrote,
wrote music for it and it was.
Well, I had a good vibe with her triothat already played well together.
And it's the my muse my musicbrought sort of a different,
different flavor of things.
There were some things that were alittle more textural or experimental
and it, but it worked well with hergroup and it was a good vibe, but I
(18:49):
got, you know, the gigs were really fun.
I was like, oh, weshould record this soon.
You know, while it's feeling fresh, butI got some altitude sickness in Denver.
So find a way to bring her band out here.
So I didn't have to acclimate.
Yeah, it was, yeah, it wassuper fun gigs with our band.
We played this great jazz club.
Sick and throwing up between setsor whatever, then went back out
and had like a really awesome set.
(19:10):
It was super fun but I'm like, let's.
Maybe record out here.
Don't have to wait around for aweek or two to get used to it.
I'm glad we did that.
And we've, you know, and we'll connectagain, but it just felt like, oh, that
was the right time to record this stuff.
And yeah.
And that came out during the pandemic.
So it was, it felt like I had a littlebit of a grace period to be productive,
like, okay, I'm actually releasing musicduring the pan early in the pandemic.
(19:32):
So it looks like I'm doing something herewhere we're all stuck at, stuck at home.
Um, but you know, the, the release.
It had to be canceled and allthat, and I'll still play it,
but at the time it doesn't feellike, oh, I'm going to go now.
And, oh, it's tour or let's do adelayed release two or two years later.
I'm like, well, it doesn't, itdoesn't feel like the right time.
Like we'll still, I'm sure we'll,we'll get together and play
this stuff again, but it's yeah.
(19:54):
It's okay.
That's how it, that's how it went.
And I'm glad, we're glad werecorded it when we did cause
it's um, um, you know, I can be myown biggest critic, but this one.
Yeah, really good about howit, how it turned out and happy
we have that in the portfolio.
Yeah.
Lauren Best (20:08):
And I think like we both kind of talked about
the sense of timing, right?
Like that's sometimes with, uh,you know, we were both creative
people with lots of ideas.
So I find for myself, sometimesit's a bit of a, uh, I tricky yet
simple process of like intuiting.
Like what is it the right time forand what is time sensitive now?
(20:31):
And sometimes.
You were talking about just kind oflike recognizing a good thing and then,
and then feeling a bit of a sense of,um, urgency or responsibility or, um,
to, to kind of help midwife that thing.
That like, that shinything that we notice.
Steve Treseler (20:49):
Yeah.
Midwife is a verb.
I like it.
Lauren Best (20:52):
Yeah.
To bring to life does help, help.
I mean, in some cases it's already there.
Right.
But to kind of help get it outinto a world in a different form.
Steve Treseler (21:00):
Yeah.
Lauren Best (21:04):
And so what makes you not write music with words?
If I, sometimes you're askingme about words and poetry
and the intersection for me.
Um, maybe that's not the right questionfor you, but you know what I mean, like
has, have, has working with words factoredinto, or not factored into any of those
kind of creative processes for you.
Steve Treseler (21:27):
Well, yeah, all of my, all my projects are instrumental.
I have, uh, the Kenny Wheelerproject with Ingrid Jensen I
can talk more about that more.
We did have, uh, Katie Jacobson, agood friend of mine, the, as a vocalist
on that, and from this library ofKenny Wheeler, his music, he would use
the voice Norma Winstone would sing.
(21:48):
And it would be this wordless, notscat singing, but more like a tech
textural as part of the ensemble sound.
So the, the voice was wrapped in asanother, almost had like another,
another horn and we, yeah, but there'snot, we, we did some, we did some
(22:10):
music with, with lyrics with Katie,but not that we, not that we recorded.
Uh, but it makes sense.
It it's something I want to explore more.
Cause I love songwriters.
Some of my favorite musicthat I've listened to.
Um, some of my favorite Songwriters, uh,one here, uh, Jeremy Enigk, who's a singer
songwriter front man for a Sunny Day RealEstate one of my favorite Seattle bands
(22:30):
and listen to a lot of Elliot Smith andIron and Wine and deal with some really
provocative music with, with lyrics.
And it does add another dimension.
Uh, but yeah, it's an area that, Idefinitely want to collaborate with
more songwriters in the future.
I just did a project with my friend, LaceyBrown who's a singer songwriter and like
we did this, you know, asynchronouslylaid some saxophone tracks down.
(22:52):
We're going to, uh, work on some things,but there's yeah, I mean, the music,
as we talked about for music being alanguage or not a language, so it would
be the way of just different dimensions ofexpression that can happen with the music
on its own outs, outside of the lyrics.
And it's, it just, it's a.
(23:13):
Different dimension and sometimeslyrics can, we'll certainly tell more
of a specific story, but sometimesif lyrics are trite or not hat, like
there's some songs that are just,I think all this music is beautiful
and I listen carefully to the lyrics.
I'm like, oh, it kind of ruined the vibebecause these lyrics aren't happening.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
Like
Lauren Best (23:32):
I, yeah.
I think as a songwriter, I felt attimes, a little like jealous and
resentful of instrumentalists, becauseI was kind of, there were times, right.
Where, and I have, I have, uh, likeplayed in bands as the keyboard player.
Like I, you know, singing and doingkeyboard and not being, um, or in
(23:52):
some cases, other instruments and,uh, like not being the front person.
So like, I've done some of thatand I've done, um, you know, some,
some like film, music and sound.
I've done lots of my own.
Instrumental only explorationby sometimes, you know, it
was a singer songwriter label.
It was sort of like, why do I haveall this responsibility to put words
(24:13):
to things like, like, why do I have,like, do I have to assign this extra
level of complexity and meaninglike, can I just focus on the music?
Um, which of course I also, onthe other hand, feel grateful
that I can work with that.
I can work with, um,words now, especially.
Finding it very interesting, likeworking with words with no music at all.
(24:38):
And so the flip side of that, right.
Of being like, why can't I just writewords and not worry about all the music?
Um, right.
But I, uh, now I'm, I likehaving the choices right.
Of working just instrumentallyor just with words or, you know,
a combination of that and acombination of that and other things.
(24:58):
And I'm more interested in exploring allthe shades of it, but I think feeling.
Wow.
Like, I really have to make sure what Isay is important or worthy or worthwhile
if I'm like choosing to lean into the, thelexical, the words, the, that part of it.
(25:20):
Um, as opposed to immersing myselfcreatively and exploring some of those
less tangible, less linguistically based.
Yeah,
Steve Treseler (25:30):
actually, this might be a good moment.
Yeah.
I'll warp space and timeagain, put in some of a, yeah.
A clip from that, that project yehinvisible sounds for Kenny Wheeler,
with some of the wordless vocals, youcan hear the texture of what, what
this sounds like to have the voicein the mix, but not playing the role
of a jazz singer, but the voice.
Yeah to have this particular tambouris it has to be the human voice, like
(25:51):
sticking another horn in its place.
Wouldn't be the same, but how itblends into the, that, that tambour.
Let's see.
So I think that, yeah, the bit I'llI'll play is from, uh, we did, uh, a
medley, a mashup of this as a GentlePiece, turning into Old Ballot.
I'm not sure what clip I'm gonnaplay, but you'll hear something.
Here we go?
Lauren Best (28:11):
so using the voice as an instrument and as an ensemble instrument,
uh, like growing up I sang in choirsfrom the time I was very young, uh,
on and off different kinds of choirs.
I sang in an intergenerational choir,uh, which was, uh, an awesome way
of time developing skills, singingharmonies, um, with adults around me.
(28:34):
But I also sang in choirs with my peers.
Um, and then around the time Iwas making, uh, my, my first.
I learned about this experimentalimprovising choir in Toronto
called The Element Choir.
And so I ended up, uh, exploring with TheElement Choir, lots of stuff to do with,
uh, sometimes working with instrumentstoo, but, but in an ensemble setting,
(28:58):
using our voices in instrumental ways.
And that was, uh, definitely likejust definitely formative as a li like
as a musical leader, seeing leaders.
Uh, in, in, in an ensemble ensemblebut in an improvising context.
Um, but also just as a sound maker,like doing something really fun and
(29:21):
collaborative and, and, and experimentaland exploring this with so many
other people, while I was working onthis, this album, that was my stuff.
As a singer songwriter and gigging as asinger songwriter, being the bandleader
in that context, it was really coolto be in this playground zone with all
these other improvising choir members.
Steve Treseler (29:44):
Yeah, absolutely.
When you're in that, in that kind of zoneor in that, in that type of environment
where you get to explore new sounds andnew textures and ways of interacting with
people, that's so much different from whatyou're doing with your other projects,
but they all, they feed into one another.
And this is something we talked aboutbefore, too, about the saxophone.
(30:05):
I mean, it's almost a clichenow, though, the saxophone is.
You know, it's so close to the human voiceor, you know, that's like a cliche thing
about why people play the saxophone orwhy it's so wonderful how expressive, and
you can shape the pitch in certain ways.
Um, as I said, I've heard thatso many times the saxophone
player is almost a cliche now,but we were talking about that.
The ways of you're performing a windinstrument and the way of shaping the
(30:27):
tone and, you know, we, we callit voicing when we're playing a wind
instrument, exactly the shape that ourmouth and our tongue position is making
to change the timbre and the pitch ofsound, which is similar to language.
And it, it becomes so automatic.
Some of these, thesevoicing things that we do.
So, you know, really trying to singthrough the horn um, I mean, in a more
(30:50):
abstract sense, but also physically.
Um
Lauren Best (30:54):
Hmm, interesting.
Yeah.
So it's, it's like in the, in the projectyou described the voice, almost becoming
a horn but you're describing this context,like the horn almost becoming a voice,
so to speak in that kind of interplay.
Steve Treseler (31:07):
Yeah.
And there's been, there's been times tooin my group on my, a couple of my records.
I covered, you know, I've,I've covered an Iron Wine Song,
Sunday Day Real Estate song.
There's just some of myfavorite music that I've just
really wanted to be part of.
And oftentimes I'm playing thelead line on the horn, but it's
like, oh, the words aren't there.
And it's like, oh, it's not quitethe same, like doing this that
maybe needs to be vocal musicand doing an instrumental cover.
(31:27):
But there are times like, okay, tryingto sing through the horn, but for
certain times, if the words aren't.
It's not quite the same,but, um, and, um, yeah,
go ahead.
Lauren Best (31:38):
I'm curious in terms of like the use of your voice versus the
use of your horn and, and this might notbe something I didn't plan to ask you
this, this might not have been somethingyou explored, but, um, like what,
using the horn in those ways, thinkingabout the horn vocally, you know, has.
(32:01):
How that has influenced your use ofyour own voice or your use of voices.
Like we often use the word voiceto mean different parts, right.
Um, so like in using your own voice,because as a, as a voice teacher, I, of
course I've learned that many musicianswould consider themselves not to be
vocalists and many vocalists considerthemselves not to be musicians or
(32:24):
at least not to be instrumentalists.
Um, shockingly.
So do you want to tell mea little bit about that?
Like what.
Steve Treseler (32:30):
Sure boy, I wish I had been singing or using my voice,
like starting from when I was younger,like, you know, little singalongs every
now and then, but that was about it.
So even in my training, I wasn't askedto sing anything, so it's not, so it's
very, um, uh, yeah, so I suppose likea very vulnerable place, like, oh,
if I need to sing in front of people,but I ended up using it as a tool.
(32:53):
Well, when I went tomusic school, New England.
There was a, it was a very like eartraining was such an integral part.
So we had to, we did like intensive,solfege and sight singing and doing it
in front of the class and the jazz eartraining classes, we had to like, listen
to music off a recording and be able tosing it back unaccompanied to the TA.
It was just lots of singingand it was super uncomfortable.
(33:14):
And I remember the first I was in eartraining class, they said, oh, we're going
to sing this like Billie Holiday song.
And the teacher sang itand we'd just sing it back.
And I just like blunderedit and everyone's laughing.
Like everyone was literally laughingat me and I was fine, but it was.
Okay.
I have to get used to doing that, but itstarted later enough in my training that
the never felt super comfortable, buton the same, the flip side, we use our
(33:35):
voice so much more than our instrument.
Most of us talk more than we play.
Well, depends whatstage of life you're in.
I guess there's plenty of timeswhere I played, played saxophone
a lot more than I than I talk, butsometimes when I'm still writing.
So I use my voice as a tool more.
I mean, when I'm teaching a lot andI'm still singing and I'm vocalizing
things that I'm hearing, sometimesI'll sing it and go to the piano, but
it's, it's not something that I'm likecomfortable performing as far as like
(33:59):
an expressive instrument that I'm to beon stage singing anything versus being.
You know, being able to hide in thebackground vocals or something like that.
So I haven't, but it's yeah.
I mean, there has been some, someprojects I was actually working on
songs with words hadn't been recorded,you know, and, and singing a bit,
but it's definitely that's uh, yeah.
(34:22):
That's uh, yeah, you, yeah.
Even talking about thatto making me nervous.
So that's not, it's like anarea that certainly explored
a bit, would like to do.
Yeah, and have that be a, a tool,but I definitely want some of
my students to be singing it.
Like we're singing a lot moreand singing along with drones and
tuning intervals with our voice soI still, I mean, I'll still do that.
Try to sing intervals, but still even asuncomfortable as I would be with singing,
(34:46):
like there are elements of it that stillfeel more natural than having this giant
piece of brass and leather and woodand having that be, uh, be a barrier.
Um, uh, but yeah, just whatyou're saying about that, that
choir, that sounds similar.
In some ways to some projects thatI've been involved in the last few
years, the sound painting, which is aS uh, so I'm in, involved in a ensemble
(35:11):
here in Seattle called Scrambler.
And the leader of that put togetherduring the pandemic, a worldwide
multidisciplinary ensembleof peeping people performing
and recording, uh, online.
But yeah, sound paintingsa to multidisciplinary,
sign language for music.
Basically, we have, you still had, it'sa way of organizing an improvised piece.
(35:34):
Wealth Walter Thompson, who created hedoesn't call it improvisation because it
live composition, which sounds confusing.
So a lot of us still call ita conducted improvisation.
Cause that's what it, what it looks like.
But what's the line betweenbeing composed and improvise.
Another another topic, butyou have this other stuff.
There's a leader in front.
Who's giving a series of signsand gestures, and each gesture
gives some specific informationabout how the performers respond.
(35:57):
But each of us have our own freedomwithin each of those signs to
make some creative decisions.
So it could be like, you know,everyone, you know, everyone's things,
a long tone, you can modify it, orthis person will relate to this.
You improvise and you accompany.
Or this group is playing and nowthis other group will do something
else and you can structure all ofthat with, uh, with the leader.
(36:20):
And there's all, we'veexplored all kinds of things.
I mean, everything from around theholidays, we always deconstruct the
Nutcracker Suite and we have, weactually have charts for reading,
but then there's areas where itgets rearranged and gets goes in.
It gets in, it gets wild and.
But yeah, I felt the pandemiccollaborating with people all over the
(36:41):
world, a clarinet player in Turkey and avisual artist and actor and Argentina and
a violin player in Belgium and a dancerin Texas and visual artists in Munich.
And we all like get together andwe've been producing some of these.
Yeah.
Yeah, these were wild projects.
Um, but it sounds similar in some waysto your Element Choir, maybe we could.
Lauren Best (37:05):
Yeah.
And I mean, I'm imagining that theconductor of the element car Christine
Christine Duncan, it sounds like there'ssome crossover between the, in terms
of the use of signs and the approaches.
And it, when you weretalking about the voice being
vulnerable, I was struck by that.
And how freeing, becauseit is so vulnerable.
(37:25):
I mean, that's something that Iacknowledge like every day to myself
because it, that that's, you know, ithits me in the face, so to speak, right.
Like when I, if I feel like if everwe feel our voices, aren't vulnerable,
we'll learn again that they are in someways, like, you know, as much as we can,
of course, gain confidence and comfort.
Our voices really.
It's a very intimate thing and it'scan be very confusing thing because
(37:47):
we can't see it and, and direct itand perceive it in quite the same
way that we can like dancing in frontof a mirror or something like that.
Um, so yeah, at the time being in theElement Choir, not only for me at the
time as an 18 year old, was it that'slike creative kind of explosion of sorts.
(38:07):
I had done lots of different kinds of.
Improvising and ensemble workthrough theater and movement
and, and other kinds of things.
But.
It was, it was just this great creativemarinade, so to speak, but also a
chance to really explore my voice insome ways that were not like you're
(38:29):
doing a gig, you're making an album,you're this, you know, um, which
is stressful in many ways, right.
As you're trying to elevate your skilland you're trying to not screw up, you
know, and, and perform, but being in anensemble where we're using our voice in.
And really creative ways.
Um, and exploring that aspect ofit was just, it was really cool.
(38:54):
All right.
Around that time.
And I think we, in our conversations,um, I hadn't talked necessarily told
you a lot about the Element Choir,but hearing about Sound Painting.
I was like, oh yeah, I know this.
And even though it's not somethingI'm doing as regularly as.
It feels very, uh, very presentto me because although now it was
many years ago that I was, that Iwas doing, uh, singing with or in
(39:16):
vocalizing with the element choir.
I've done different kinds of soundmaking and improvising since.
And so it's, it's stillfeels very, a moment away
is the element choir stillgoing today is that's
a good question.
I.
That's a very good question.
I was part of an album they recordedand I know they were doing some
(39:36):
really neat projects around thetime I was moving away from Toronto,
which was about six years ago.
And
Steve Treseler (39:42):
That in toronto say, man, now I'm getting a little light bulb.
I'm like, okay, that's whatthat grant proposal can go for.
Why the whole worldwide SoundPainting Ensemble to like be part
of the and join forces with theElement Choir and see what happens.
But yeah, the, uh, the sound paintingit, didn't invent this idea of.
Hand signs like, or, you know, conductedtypes of, uh, improvised pieces.
(40:06):
It's like, there was lotsof folks that have done it.
I mean, I was, I've been part of thegroups that we were doing it even before
new knowing that there was a systemlike that, but this particular one
was created in the seventies, kind ofthis like second generation of avant
garde jazz happening in this creativemusic studio in Woodstock, New York and
there's, but there was someone else atthe same time coming up with a similar
(40:27):
process that's called Conduction.
Conducted improvisation, ButchMorris, and he has ensembles and it
was very similar to sound painting.
I mean, almost identical concepts andthey were just coming up at the same time.
But then.
They found out about each other.
And I think they had a little rivalry.
So I was talking to Walter, thesound painting guy, and he would like
send like spies to the conductionrehearsals and like steal some of the
(40:48):
signs that he tried to make them more.
And, you know, they ended up becominglike great friends and I play in groups
that right or that the do conductionas well, and they have different.
You know, different,different, different flavors.
And I find a conduction, the conductionsystem works really well for musicians
who are more experienced improvisers.
It's like more intuitive and feelsmore like an orchestra conductor with
(41:09):
a baton and sound painting and cangive some more, very specific things.
Especially for when I do this withworkshops with, let's say kids or
adults who have never done thisbefore, and they need a little,
they need some more instructions.
Sound painting can be more specific.
It can also be open and themultidisciplinary angle is, it makes it,
it's a cool, it's a cool story to tellas I'm leading these things and go, oh,
(41:32):
by the way, there's over 1600 signs andartists of all disciplines can do it.
So I have it on my, on theteaching side of things.
I've moved this, the soundpainting direction as that system,
because it's got a cool story.
There's people doing it all overthe world, particularly in Europe.
Um, but there's so many otherother ways to get at and similar.
(41:53):
Similar concepts.
Lauren Best (41:54):
So was that at all and that kind of thing apart of your world,
when you were exploring your, your,the, the technical vocal stuff in, uh,
in school, or was this something thatonly kind of came into your awareness
later on and that you were able to use?
Like, did you get a taste of it earlier?
That kind of got you excited?
Steve Treseler (42:17):
Yeah.
When.
This type of thing it firststarted, I was actually my first
week at it at music school.
So I mean, NEC was a very, I mean,it's this, you know, European classical
conservatory model, but then there wasa small jazz program, like 70 people in
it, but it was very progressive and veryleft-wing as far as jazz programs go
like once you were there, you can kind ofstudy with who you wanted, play, whatever,
(42:39):
almost play, whatever music you wanted.
If you could pass thesolfege, the sight singing.
It was, it was, it was hard to getinto, but once we were there, we were
just like, we had total autonomy.
So it was like, people were really, itwas just a magical environment that people
were working really hard and working ontheir craft, but it was never competitive,
like who is going to make the top band,that everything was just different.
So some people, there were peoplethat were brilliant to, uh, like
(43:05):
playing like Latin American musicand then people that were playing,
you know, straight ahead standard.
The adjust standards and some thatwere doing crazy music, uh, doing
like w like avant-garde experimentsand doing people playing Americana.
And we all kind of find our people andexploring and doing different things.
I think it was the first week of school.
I did a, it was a game piece by John Zorn.
(43:26):
That's called Cobra, which has some,some cue cards and like a sophisticated.
Slightly complex set of rules to learn.
And they're a little abstract.
He never published all of the rules.
So it's a little bit, you had tolearn it orally from John Zorn.
So if you didn't, so there's peoplethat have done it and let it, and
everyone does it a little different.
So there's a little bitof mystery around it.
(43:47):
So he would do a series of gamepieces and it was similar to.
Results like, okay, this groupof people is going to start
now, you copied this person.
Now.
Now when we hold up this sign, youhave to completely change the style
of music you're playing, or you haveto take over for this other musician.
And it was, it was wild.
It was super fun.
People from all differentbackgrounds could come together
and play, but it was learning.
(44:08):
It was fine.
I was theatrical cause someone'swaving around the cue cards and
they're like big colorful signs.
And then some guerrilla tactics whereyou put on a headband and then, and then
you can like try to take over the leader.
And so there's like thistheatrical element happening and
for some very abstract music.
And so that was my first experiencedoing something like that.
And it's, you know, some music that I'veperformed throughout the years, but I
(44:32):
find it super helpful in the educationside when I'm making these like.
Community workshops, whereI'm pulling people together
from different backgrounds,different levels of experience.
And here we can actually improvise.
We can create together without havingit be like a specific musical language
or rhythmic language or it's, itcan be ways it's a little bit more
(44:53):
open that people can just right offthe bat start creating together.
And it's really fun being partof the sound painting ensemble,
but a lot of the music that I'verecorded and played are some more.
Music that's maybe more, slightlymore traditionally composed with
improvised elements, but this is, yeah.
This area has opened up yeah.
Different ways of approachingmusic and listening and
(45:15):
interacting and experimenting and
Lauren Best (45:18):
yeah.
And, and as you say that, I,I realized that as much as I
said, oh, the Element Choirs was
an explosion for me.
And it was, it was more people have agreater diversity of background, many
of whom had other musical projects.
Right.
And other, other, um, expertise.
Right.
So it was a different kindof creative coming together.
(45:39):
Cause there was just more people andwe were performing, I was performing
more often with them, right.
So there's a different type of thing,but that type of ensemble play and
work and uh, different ways of.
Of working together to make creativethings, and sound was actually before
(46:00):
that, for me with theater games.
And so hearing you describe some of thosethings, I was like, ah, you know, as much
as, at that time it was hugely impactful.
I was, I was no stranger to thestrangeness and, you know, I didn't,
I'd been exploring that kind of thing intheater contexts, uh, with, with different
kinds of, of approaches to improvtheater, both for performance and for.
(46:24):
Skill development andfor creative development.
Steve Treseler (46:27):
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
That's something I definitely wantto have future conversations about.
Cause there are that there'sso much to draw from for
multi-disciplinary collaborations.
Wait, what theater people do you know whenyou say improvisation or improv for most
people, some think music and other thinktheater, like those are the most common
associations people people have and.
You know I put together this,I started thinking a lot of my
(46:50):
educational activities and puttingit under this Infinite Improvisation
brand during the pandemic.
But one of the programs that I've beenmost excited about it's called the
Game Symphony Workshop, which is takingsome of those elements from, uh, from
theater games or sketch comedy andworking with working with musicians.
So I don't have that theater backgroundof, of like a high school drama
(47:12):
class, but I've studied some of these
I've studied some of these games.
And also talk with someone who led agroup of musicians who were like doing
improvised music for the Second CityTheater in Chicago, and doing like
improvised soundtracks to improvisedtheater and pulling that together.
(47:33):
And I find that that's really helpful.
I mean, as a, as a process and, and tomake interesting music, but re really.
Helpful for, as I was, as, as theprocess or helping people along who
cause there's so much fear and anxietyaround improvising and being a soloist,
I'm like, we're going to play a guessthe animal, and you're going to make
chicken sounds in front of your friends.
(47:54):
And it's just so disarming and peopleare just more loose for being creative
and spontaneous and, and, you know, usingthe novelty to get people engaged and
feel like it's a community experienceand using that as the gateway to more.
I don't want to say more serious,but more like listening intensive
and other composition andimprovisation and all of that.
(48:17):
So,
Lauren Best (48:18):
well, it's part of it too.
Like what mindset are weapproaching things with?
And is it w you know, are weapproaching things with a sense
of fun and play and exploration?
Or are we goal or product focused.
And I, and I don't mean to saythat there isn't a place for being
goal and product focused of course.
Right.
Um, and those, like, there can beintersections in that for sure.
(48:41):
But, um, it can be funtoo, to mix things up.
I find the more that I believe in improv,um, which, which is a question I have,
which we may be saving for a future,a future episode, which is like, we
talked about the why of improv, but youknow, the personal connection of why,
why I believe, you know, like, likewhy believe in it, but, um, the more
(49:06):
I believe that it's a good thing to do.
The more I thrust myself and otherfolks into doing it when they aren't
expecting to like, you know, in anearly childhood class, I'm much more.
And by that, I mean, like with babiesand parents online, I'm more, much
more likely now to be like, You canjust improvise a little, you know,
a little solo here at this partof the song for your baby, please.
(49:28):
I promise your baby will like it.
Go ahead.
You're muted, no harm in it.
Give it a try.
Come on.
You know, and as much as I that's aninvitation, I never forced anyone to,
but kind of just, just throwing it inthere and seeing, seeing what happens.
Right.
Integrating it more often.
Steve Treseler (49:46):
As we navigate this, this will be its own when we get to the, how,
but talking about the element of play.
So when we talk about, oh, something'splayful and fun and the game has this
idea of, oh, it's, you know, it'strivial and not, and not serious, not
serious music, but there's this quoteI just brought up and we'll come back
to this in a future episode as well.
(50:07):
But this is Stephen Nachmanovitch , hisother book, not the one I sent you.
It's what's called Free Play.
But he talking about this idea yetthe free play improv improvisation.
Life and art, I believe isthe tagline, uh, that I, I
love how he pulls us together.
So he says there there's an oldSanskrit word, Lila, which means
play, but richer than our word.
(50:27):
It means divine play the play ofcreation, destruction and recreation,
the folding and unfolding of thecosmos Lila free and deep is both
delight and enjoyment of this moment.
It's the play of God.
And it also means love.
Lauren Best (50:41):
And I, I think we better leave it there yeah.
Because that, I can't sumit up better than that.
Steve Treseler (50:49):
Uh, I mean, that's, it we're plant, you
know, it could be playing a game.
It could be.
You know, universe spittingout planets, you know?
So it's like it's.
Yeah.
So
Lauren Best (51:01):
and so it spirals.
Steve Treseler (51:03):
Yeah.
All right.
Well,
Lauren Best (51:06):
we'll leave you wanting more.
Good.
Okay.
Well, thanks.
Thanks for listening.
Go to infinite improvisation.comand you can connect with
us in our online community.
And we'll see you next time.
Welcome to the Infinite Improvisation Podcast:
adventures in Music and Creativity,with Steve Treseler in Seattle and
across the continent and across theborder, got Lauren Best in Ontario.
Lauren Best (00:22):
Yay.
Happy to be here again onzoom across time and space.
Steve Treseler (00:28):
So for the third pilot episode, we will be talking
about our stories a little bit.
This is the who episode.
We've covered a bit of why we're doingthis, why the conversation is important,
what, what improvisation is and isn't,and today learn a little bit more about
myself and Lauren and, you know, we'rejust getting to know each other as well.
Only, you know, known eachother for two months too.
(00:51):
So we're, um, learning about each other'sstories and practices, all of that.
So.
Lauren Best (00:58):
And y'know kind of how we, how we got to where we are and what we,
what we've been picking up along the way.
Steve Treseler (01:06):
Yeah.
So.
We decided we're actually notgoing to go chronologically.
We're going to bounce around and tell somestories and see, and see how things go.
I guess I've got a, Igot a question for you.
I know you were the PoetLaureate for Owen Sound.
Tell us about that andforgive my ignorance, but
what does a Poet Laureate do?
Lauren Best (01:25):
Ah, yeah, so the Poet Laureate is an official
position for a given area.
So Canada has a poet Laureate,you know, often it's a, it's a
country or a city or municipality.
Um, so Owen Sound has aPoet Laureate program.
It's actually one of the fewPoet Laureate programs that's
privately funded through sponsors.
(01:45):
Um, it's currently administeredby the library in Owen Sound.
And so the role of a Poet Laureate is to.
Elevate poetry and educate aboutpoetry and be an ambassador
of poetry in the community.
Um, sometimes that mayinclude writing poetry.
So for example, writing poetry forparticular events or reading or
(02:11):
performing poetry, whether there'ssomething written specifically for that,
or not at, um, official sort of events.
So I, I presented poetryat Owen Sound City Council.
Uh, there's different types ofPoet Laureate programs, right?
So there's different, uh, sometimesdifferent focuses or themes or different
expectations of Poet Laureates, ordifferent ways they're invited into the
(02:35):
community and, and sort of different waysthey carry out their tenure, so to speak.
I'll pause there.
Any questions so far?
Steve Treseler (02:44):
Okay, keep going.
Lauren Best (02:46):
So in my case, uh, the focus of my tenure was on children.
So it was decided before the, uh,before the call for applications went
out, that that would be the focus.
And so I knew that going in and the, uh,application I made was, focused on that.
Um, and then, so throughout my tenure,I was trying to focus my efforts on
(03:10):
children and poetry for children, whichof course figuring out how to best
approach that, um, you know, whether,
so I did some school visits.
I did some things for parents andlittle people, uh, because that's
something I have a background in.
So, um, in my case I kind of.
Uh, like within the position used mystrengths, as well as like consulting the
(03:33):
community and the, the, uh, committee Iwas involved that that helps steer, that
helps advise that's the word, advise theposition, um, to sort of decide what,
what that meant in, in my case- and noteverything I was doing was for children.
I was of course, like doingthings that weren't involving
(03:53):
children as well, but that was.
The sort of directive I had going in.
Steve Treseler (03:58):
Yeah.
So, so these days, yeah.
How does the poetry interact withyour, with your music practice?
I know you've got your book ofpoetry that you're, you're in the
process of publishing and, you know,I was just actually listening to
your album the other day as I wasdriving back from my gig, your song
songwriting project, which I imagine.
Yeah.
There's an obvious interplay therebetween poetry and music, but yeah,
(04:21):
with your music teaching practice.
And how much of those, those twodisciplines are integrated these days.
If it feels like you put your poetryhat on to work on publishing this
book versus your your music practice.
Lauren Best (04:33):
Right.
Well, there's differentaspects to it, right?
So when it comes to working on publishingthe poetry book, If I'm being totally
honest at the part, at the stage, I'm ata lot of that is about being a producer.
I'm working on a, on a publishing andproduction pro you know, like we're
kind of a project as opposed to actuallywriting the poetry at this point.
(04:55):
So interestingly, like my skills fromhaving, you know, recorded an album
as a musician are carried throughprojects projects as a musician.
Apply in that sense, but I'm alsolearning about the differences as
well, but I'll answer the questioncreatively instead and talk about,
more about like that side of things.
(05:16):
So I think I if if I think back, youknow, about the evolution in my practice,
I would say, I think I started as apoet in some ways, because I was writing
poetry before I was writing songs.
However, if I go back even more,was I really writing poetry before
I was writing songs or was I as achild just really doing both, you
(05:39):
know, and, um, and kind of engagingin, in both like very spontaneously.
But, uh, when I, like, you know,as I was starting to become aware
of my own creative practice thatwas manifesting and, writing poetry
before it was coming out in songs,then I kind of became a song writer.
(06:01):
Right.
So I, I was writing songs.
I was performing, um, songs that Ihad the sort of singer songwriter.
Um, I was, I was looking for the rightword, not a self image, I suppose, right
where I was, especially as a teenager.
Right.
given encouragement and opportunitiesspecifically as a singer songwriter.
(06:25):
Right?
So I was much less focused on poetryand at that time, I wasn't, I hadn't
really been encouraged to write poetrynearly as much, you know, like just by
naturally what was happening around me.
It hadn't, I hadn't felt nurtured as apoet in the same way as, as a songwriter.
And it felt that poetry was avehicle to songwriting, right.
That if I was writing poetry, itwas to eventually write a song
(06:47):
because that's where I could play.
And that's what, what, you know,what was more in alignment with
my goals of performing and,and nurturing a music career.
So then having done a whole bunchof music stuff, and then coming
back to poetry, sort of, I neverstopped writing poetry, but.
Being asked to focus on poetry as faras Poet Laureate, which I should say.
(07:11):
I also did music as Poet Laureate.
And before my tenure, the PoetsLaureate previous, they actually had two
poets, two people sharing the positionand it was a musician and a poet.
And the musician was also lyricist,so they like worked together.
And so there was already kind ofin the history of the program,
this, this musical integration.
Um, and I was using music too, but atthe same time, it invited me to really
(07:33):
focus on poetry and kind of allow myskills and my interests and my creativity
in, in that to be poetry without feelinglike there's a next step for it, feeling
that the poetry itself was enough and.
So that was a cool thing.
And because it gave me this focus too,of, of a directive and imperative to be
(07:58):
the thing, to be the Poet Laureate, to bethe transformation, to be the creativity.
Right.
It meant that I was engaging withpoetry in a lot of different ways.
So sometimes that wasin a community context.
Sometimes I was workinglike directly with children.
Um, both in terms of, forgenerating creative ideas or for
(08:19):
like increasing their capacity andskill and amplifying their ideas.
Um, sometimes that meant I was justworking on my own creative practice,
but exploring things in, in maybenew ways because it, because of the
context,
Steve Treseler (08:34):
well, we didn't talk about doing this.
This might be a good time to workthe space, time continuum, continuum,
and actually edit in that, likelistening to a sample of your music.
You can throw that in and post.
in that'd be cool.
Throw in one of your, from yoursongwriting project, which was,
which is really cool project.
And it's very, well-produced likeyou've got a lot of arrangements and
horns and like some pretty suffix,sophisticated ensemble arrangements too.
(08:55):
So did you, was that all stuff that you,that you arranged or how did that all get.
Yeah,
Lauren Best (09:01):
in terms of that project.
Uh, so I did self produce that,but I had, um, associate producers
who I worked with who helped me.
So I was very, um, nurtured.
I would, I would say, um, by others.
Um, so I wrote all those songswhen I was in high school.
In grade 12.
(09:23):
So my last year of high school,I started making that album.
It might have even been a little before.
Great grade 12, and I was kind ofhard at work making this thing.
I ended up not going to universityat that time because I was like,
okay, I got to finish this album.
University is going to have to wait.
Um, cause I clearly haveto finish this project.
I didn't want to, um, sideline it.
(09:45):
Uh, Uh, for the hornarrangements, I didn't do the horn
arrangements, arrangements myself.
I worked with arrangers.
I worked with session musicians.
Um, does that answer, doesthat answer your question?
Steve Treseler (09:58):
Yeah.
Yeah.
About the process.
I'd say which, which, which, which,which tracks you in a drop drop in later.
Um,
Lauren Best (10:11):
Well, interestingly, actually the, uh, The Nihilism Song, which is,
it's also so funny for me to look backat, I dunno if we'll pick that track
where we can return to this in post.
Um, but one of the, that, thattrack from it, I had a friend
do a dance piece to that track.
And so it was really neat.
(10:34):
Seeing what I've been working sohard on an in studio, kind of living
on its own and, and intersecting,uh, with someone else's creative
practice and someone else's study, um,and, and arts practice in that way.
And I mean, I, I feel so luckythat I just got to work with the
musicians I did on that album.
(10:54):
And in terms of improvisation, aswe talked about in the last episode,
Probably all the episodes of our yeah.
You know, uh, session musicians and,and, uh, improvisation in the context
of recording and, uh, like coming upwith arrangements through improvisation.
And that was an awesome process.
And that was amazing to see andinspiring and, uh, just, just awesome
(11:20):
to collaborate with people kindof in that, in that creative zone.
Steve Treseler (11:23):
All right.
So Lauren song from grade 12from Sticker Collection, which
you can go, buy on band camp.
All right here, here's abit of the Nihilism Song
Lauren Best (11:42):
And what about for you?
So when I described that process Yeah,versus and like, comparing that to maybe
the first album you did, or other, otheralbums you did, like how, tell us a little
bit about, about your background andprocess when it comes to studio albums.
Steve Treseler (11:57):
Sure.
Yeah.
I, from all the music I grew up listeningto, you know, I still really like the.
You know, the container of an album,you know, a journey from beginning
to end, I guess that would fitthe physical medium at the time,
you know, at 30 to 45 minutes.
So, uh, when I first I think I wasmaybe in my, yeah, in my mid twenties
(12:20):
and I put together my first albumresonance and it started with a
group that I put together after.
So I went to.
So I grew up in the Northwest,went away to music school.
I studied jazz saxophone at New EnglandConservatory in Boston and came back to
the Northwest and wanted to put togethera group to play some of my own music.
(12:41):
And that's, that's when I was goingout to jam sessions all the time,
just meeting people, getting a feelfor, for other folks in town and
how they played and other concerts.
And I had an idea for, uh,an ensemble to put together.
And, you know, some of themactually, I hadn't even met like
the guitar player, Chris Spencer,who's now a good friend of mine.
I've recorded at his home studio.
(13:02):
He's helped mix my lastcouple of projects.
I just heard him play andpeople recommended them.
And, uh, there's something Irecommend to people getting started
now rather than like, Hey, let'sstart a band and rehearse every week.
I actually just hired them for a gig.
So as a jazz musician, it'slike, Hey, I've got a club gig.
I can guarantee this muchmoney, which I wasn't going to
get guaranteed from the club.
I was maybe going to lose money.
I just wanted to get thesepeople together, rehearse and
(13:23):
they were all down to do it.
And got uh, got these folks togetherand got Don Clement, amazing pianist.
Who's now in the Denver area.
And these folks are, it started withI'm going to hire them for something.
And then over time they became friends andcollaborators and we've worked together.
So it was a group.
We had done that, a few, a handfulof shows, but it wasn't a band
(13:44):
that was gigging all the time, morevehicle for, uh, various original,
mostly my original music, but otherthings that I liked covering and
some of the other band member's
pieces and.
Then I had it at some point I wasactually taking a, taking a walk
in the woods through Carkeek Park.
And I had just had this moment whereI'm like, oh, I have an idea for
(14:05):
this Kenny Wheeler chorale that Ilove that would flow into this thing
that I wrote a couple years ago.
And I just had an idea for the arcof that album, like, oh, this could
work and I pieced it together.
So there's some albums I've beena part of as jazz musicians.
Hey, we're going to record a bunchof tunes and see what turns out good.
And then we'll figure outwhat order to stick them into.
But most of my projects havehad an idea for like the
beginning to end, like what the.
(14:26):
Um, the album is going to be, and there'slots of surprises along the way, but
then once I had that idea for that, yeah.
Uh, put, put the band together andwent recorded some at Chris Spencer's
home studio, the guitar player, andsome in another small, small studio.
And I did some horn overdubs.
So there's a lot that was very live andinteractive improvisations, but then
(14:50):
also, some editing and post, right?
Yeah.
Over dubbed a whole chorale ofsaxophones or added some extra
guitar layers or things like that.
So there's some, some elements wherewe're using the studio as an instrument
to warp space and time as, as you said.
And, uh, and that, that is, uh,quite, uh, yeah, it's, it's, it's
(15:11):
wonderful to have that portfolio.
I mean, it's a challenging process, justlike, oh, I'm excited to do this thing.
Then we record and get in the middleof it in the middle of mixing and.
Hmm, then you suddenly hateeverything and then, okay.
No, I said not that bad and, you know,going, going, going through that and
learning through the process of, youknow, I really wanted the product to
be like, feeling like a final product,which it did, but it, as I go, it's
(15:32):
really documenting these different,different parts of my journey.
So now I have, uh, four albums as a,as a leader and the process has been
similar, but different different projects,different people, different sounds.
But I kind of had like thisidea of here's maybe when.
The arc of the albumis, is going to be here.
Here's the concept, which isdifferent than maybe a, than a, a
(15:54):
gig where it's, Hey, we'll try this.
We'll try some of that and callsomething else on, on the fly.
So there's a mix of know, a lotof improvising on all of them, but
also some predetermined structure.
And things to and edits and fixes later.
Yeah.
Lauren Best (16:09):
It's interesting.
You mentioned like the shape ofthe whole album, because when I was
recording my album, I wasn't sure aboutthe order I would put it in, at some
point I did decide upon the order.
And I remember I wrote out allthe song names on little pieces of
paper, and then I like laid themout so that I could rearrange them.
And then.
(16:30):
You know, thought about it and, and,and adjusted things a little more.
But I had, I, like, I knew I wanted torecord this, um, collection, so to speak,
the album is called Sticker Collection.
Uh, but the reason I wanted to do thatis because I'd written these songs when
I was like 14 to 17 in high school.
And.
Like I needed to wrap that up.
(16:52):
Y'know, like I was like,okay, these are done.
Like, this is what I've been playingat the T once I started recording it,
I'd written other songs by that point.
But there was this kind oflike clear group of songs.
And I was like, well, if Idon't record these now, like
when am I going to record them?
Like, even as a 17 year old or 17,18 year old person, I know 17, 17.
(17:15):
I, I knew I wasn't going to want to berecording the music that I'd written in
high school at a later date necessarily.
Um, or certainly that themoment would be different.
So I was like, okay, like I said,Almost a responsibility to do it.
Like, I don't know whyI wrote these songs.
I don't know where they came from.
Like I'm still in high school.
I haven't figured anything outguys, but like, I guess a better
(17:37):
like, like finish them off and, uh,and, and have them be in the world.
And, uh, in, in that recorded form.
Steve Treseler (17:46):
Yeah, it's, uh, it's important to document it when it
feels, when it feels like it's theright time and the vibe is good.
Like that's, um, time to do it.
With my last recording project.
This EP called The Snowline Suite,kind of mountain themed music, but it
was a, it started with a collaborationwith my friend, Annie Booth.
She's a pianist in the Denver area.
Another one.
(18:06):
Two, two pianos in Denver.
I brought up, but we, we met at aworkshop in Banff for the three week
Jazz and Creative Music Workshop,met people from all over the world
and, and we played and, and, and westayed in touch and she invited me
to Denver to play a couple of gigs.
And I brought her to Seattle.
We did like a two citytour, which worked well.
Cause I showed up there andshe booked a bunch of gigs.
I played with her band and thenshe came to Seattle and vice versa.
(18:27):
So the booking was easier causewe just tapped into our community.
So I was a fan of the twocity tour and yeah, I wrote,
wrote music for it and it was.
Well, I had a good vibe with her triothat already played well together.
And it's the my muse my musicbrought sort of a different,
different flavor of things.
There were some things that were alittle more textural or experimental
and it, but it worked well with hergroup and it was a good vibe, but I
(18:49):
got, you know, the gigs were really fun.
I was like, oh, weshould record this soon.
You know, while it's feeling fresh, butI got some altitude sickness in Denver.
So find a way to bring her band out here.
So I didn't have to acclimate.
Yeah, it was, yeah, it wassuper fun gigs with our band.
We played this great jazz club.
Sick and throwing up between setsor whatever, then went back out
and had like a really awesome set.
(19:10):
It was super fun but I'm like, let's.
Maybe record out here.
Don't have to wait around for aweek or two to get used to it.
I'm glad we did that.
And we've, you know, and we'll connectagain, but it just felt like, oh, that
was the right time to record this stuff.
And yeah.
And that came out during the pandemic.
So it was, it felt like I had a littlebit of a grace period to be productive,
like, okay, I'm actually releasing musicduring the pan early in the pandemic.
(19:32):
So it looks like I'm doing something herewhere we're all stuck at, stuck at home.
Um, but you know, the, the release.
It had to be canceled and allthat, and I'll still play it,
but at the time it doesn't feellike, oh, I'm going to go now.
And, oh, it's tour or let's do adelayed release two or two years later.
I'm like, well, it doesn't, itdoesn't feel like the right time.
Like we'll still, I'm sure we'll,we'll get together and play
this stuff again, but it's yeah.
(19:54):
It's okay.
That's how it, that's how it went.
And I'm glad, we're glad werecorded it when we did cause
it's um, um, you know, I can be myown biggest critic, but this one.
Yeah, really good about howit, how it turned out and happy
we have that in the portfolio.
Yeah.
Lauren Best (20:08):
And I think like we both kind of talked about
the sense of timing, right?
Like that's sometimes with, uh,you know, we were both creative
people with lots of ideas.
So I find for myself, sometimesit's a bit of a, uh, I tricky yet
simple process of like intuiting.
Like what is it the right time forand what is time sensitive now?
(20:31):
And sometimes.
You were talking about just kind oflike recognizing a good thing and then,
and then feeling a bit of a sense of,um, urgency or responsibility or, um,
to, to kind of help midwife that thing.
That like, that shinything that we notice.
Steve Treseler (20:49):
Yeah.
Midwife is a verb.
I like it.
Lauren Best (20:52):
Yeah.
To bring to life does help, help.
I mean, in some cases it's already there.
Right.
But to kind of help get it outinto a world in a different form.
Steve Treseler (21:00):
Yeah.
Lauren Best (21:04):
And so what makes you not write music with words?
If I, sometimes you're askingme about words and poetry
and the intersection for me.
Um, maybe that's not the right questionfor you, but you know what I mean, like
has, have, has working with words factoredinto, or not factored into any of those
kind of creative processes for you.
Steve Treseler (21:27):
Well, yeah, all of my, all my projects are instrumental.
I have, uh, the Kenny Wheelerproject with Ingrid Jensen I
can talk more about that more.
We did have, uh, Katie Jacobson, agood friend of mine, the, as a vocalist
on that, and from this library ofKenny Wheeler, his music, he would use
the voice Norma Winstone would sing.
(21:48):
And it would be this wordless, notscat singing, but more like a tech
textural as part of the ensemble sound.
So the, the voice was wrapped in asanother, almost had like another,
another horn and we, yeah, but there'snot, we, we did some, we did some
(22:10):
music with, with lyrics with Katie,but not that we, not that we recorded.
Uh, but it makes sense.
It it's something I want to explore more.
Cause I love songwriters.
Some of my favorite musicthat I've listened to.
Um, some of my favorite Songwriters, uh,one here, uh, Jeremy Enigk, who's a singer
songwriter front man for a Sunny Day RealEstate one of my favorite Seattle bands
(22:30):
and listen to a lot of Elliot Smith andIron and Wine and deal with some really
provocative music with, with lyrics.
And it does add another dimension.
Uh, but yeah, it's an area that, Idefinitely want to collaborate with
more songwriters in the future.
I just did a project with my friend, LaceyBrown who's a singer songwriter and like
we did this, you know, asynchronouslylaid some saxophone tracks down.
(22:52):
We're going to, uh, work on some things,but there's yeah, I mean, the music,
as we talked about for music being alanguage or not a language, so it would
be the way of just different dimensions ofexpression that can happen with the music
on its own outs, outside of the lyrics.
And it's, it just, it's a.
(23:13):
Different dimension and sometimeslyrics can, we'll certainly tell more
of a specific story, but sometimesif lyrics are trite or not hat, like
there's some songs that are just,I think all this music is beautiful
and I listen carefully to the lyrics.
I'm like, oh, it kind of ruined the vibebecause these lyrics aren't happening.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
Like
Lauren Best (23:32):
I, yeah.
I think as a songwriter, I felt attimes, a little like jealous and
resentful of instrumentalists, becauseI was kind of, there were times, right.
Where, and I have, I have, uh, likeplayed in bands as the keyboard player.
Like I, you know, singing and doingkeyboard and not being, um, or in
(23:52):
some cases, other instruments and,uh, like not being the front person.
So like, I've done some of thatand I've done, um, you know, some,
some like film, music and sound.
I've done lots of my own.
Instrumental only explorationby sometimes, you know, it
was a singer songwriter label.
It was sort of like, why do I haveall this responsibility to put words
(24:13):
to things like, like, why do I have,like, do I have to assign this extra
level of complexity and meaninglike, can I just focus on the music?
Um, which of course I also, onthe other hand, feel grateful
that I can work with that.
I can work with, um,words now, especially.
Finding it very interesting, likeworking with words with no music at all.
(24:38):
And so the flip side of that, right.
Of being like, why can't I just writewords and not worry about all the music?
Um, right.
But I, uh, now I'm, I likehaving the choices right.
Of working just instrumentallyor just with words or, you know,
a combination of that and acombination of that and other things.
(24:58):
And I'm more interested in exploring allthe shades of it, but I think feeling.
Wow.
Like, I really have to make sure what Isay is important or worthy or worthwhile
if I'm like choosing to lean into the, thelexical, the words, the, that part of it.
(25:20):
Um, as opposed to immersing myselfcreatively and exploring some of those
less tangible, less linguistically based.
Yeah,
Steve Treseler (25:30):
actually, this might be a good moment.
Yeah.
I'll warp space and timeagain, put in some of a, yeah.
A clip from that, that project yehinvisible sounds for Kenny Wheeler,
with some of the wordless vocals, youcan hear the texture of what, what
this sounds like to have the voicein the mix, but not playing the role
of a jazz singer, but the voice.
Yeah to have this particular tambouris it has to be the human voice, like
(25:51):
sticking another horn in its place.
Wouldn't be the same, but how itblends into the, that, that tambour.
Let's see.
So I think that, yeah, the bit I'llI'll play is from, uh, we did, uh, a
medley, a mashup of this as a GentlePiece, turning into Old Ballot.
I'm not sure what clip I'm gonnaplay, but you'll hear something.
Here we go?
Lauren Best (28:11):
so using the voice as an instrument and as an ensemble instrument,
uh, like growing up I sang in choirsfrom the time I was very young, uh,
on and off different kinds of choirs.
I sang in an intergenerational choir,uh, which was, uh, an awesome way
of time developing skills, singingharmonies, um, with adults around me.
(28:34):
But I also sang in choirs with my peers.
Um, and then around the time Iwas making, uh, my, my first.
I learned about this experimentalimprovising choir in Toronto
called The Element Choir.
And so I ended up, uh, exploring with TheElement Choir, lots of stuff to do with,
uh, sometimes working with instrumentstoo, but, but in an ensemble setting,
(28:58):
using our voices in instrumental ways.
And that was, uh, definitely likejust definitely formative as a li like
as a musical leader, seeing leaders.
Uh, in, in, in an ensemble ensemblebut in an improvising context.
Um, but also just as a sound maker,like doing something really fun and
(29:21):
collaborative and, and, and experimentaland exploring this with so many
other people, while I was working onthis, this album, that was my stuff.
As a singer songwriter and gigging as asinger songwriter, being the bandleader
in that context, it was really coolto be in this playground zone with all
these other improvising choir members.
Steve Treseler (29:44):
Yeah, absolutely.
When you're in that, in that kind of zoneor in that, in that type of environment
where you get to explore new sounds andnew textures and ways of interacting with
people, that's so much different from whatyou're doing with your other projects,
but they all, they feed into one another.
And this is something we talked aboutbefore, too, about the saxophone.
(30:05):
I mean, it's almost a clichenow, though, the saxophone is.
You know, it's so close to the human voiceor, you know, that's like a cliche thing
about why people play the saxophone orwhy it's so wonderful how expressive, and
you can shape the pitch in certain ways.
Um, as I said, I've heard thatso many times the saxophone
player is almost a cliche now,but we were talking about that.
The ways of you're performing a windinstrument and the way of shaping the
(30:27):
tone and, you know, we, we callit voicing when we're playing a wind
instrument, exactly the shape that ourmouth and our tongue position is making
to change the timbre and the pitch ofsound, which is similar to language.
And it, it becomes so automatic.
Some of these, thesevoicing things that we do.
So, you know, really trying to singthrough the horn um, I mean, in a more
(30:50):
abstract sense, but also physically.
Um
Lauren Best (30:54):
Hmm, interesting.
Yeah.
So it's, it's like in the, in the projectyou described the voice, almost becoming
a horn but you're describing this context,like the horn almost becoming a voice,
so to speak in that kind of interplay.
Steve Treseler (31:07):
Yeah.
And there's been, there's been times tooin my group on my, a couple of my records.
I covered, you know, I've,I've covered an Iron Wine Song,
Sunday Day Real Estate song.
There's just some of myfavorite music that I've just
really wanted to be part of.
And oftentimes I'm playing thelead line on the horn, but it's
like, oh, the words aren't there.
And it's like, oh, it's not quitethe same, like doing this that
maybe needs to be vocal musicand doing an instrumental cover.
(31:27):
But there are times like, okay, tryingto sing through the horn, but for
certain times, if the words aren't.
It's not quite the same,but, um, and, um, yeah,
go ahead.
Lauren Best (31:38):
I'm curious in terms of like the use of your voice versus the
use of your horn and, and this might notbe something I didn't plan to ask you
this, this might not have been somethingyou explored, but, um, like what,
using the horn in those ways, thinkingabout the horn vocally, you know, has.
(32:01):
How that has influenced your use ofyour own voice or your use of voices.
Like we often use the word voiceto mean different parts, right.
Um, so like in using your own voice,because as a, as a voice teacher, I, of
course I've learned that many musicianswould consider themselves not to be
vocalists and many vocalists considerthemselves not to be musicians or
(32:24):
at least not to be instrumentalists.
Um, shockingly.
So do you want to tell mea little bit about that?
Like what.
Steve Treseler (32:30):
Sure boy, I wish I had been singing or using my voice,
like starting from when I was younger,like, you know, little singalongs every
now and then, but that was about it.
So even in my training, I wasn't askedto sing anything, so it's not, so it's
very, um, uh, yeah, so I suppose likea very vulnerable place, like, oh,
if I need to sing in front of people,but I ended up using it as a tool.
(32:53):
Well, when I went tomusic school, New England.
There was a, it was a very like eartraining was such an integral part.
So we had to, we did like intensive,solfege and sight singing and doing it
in front of the class and the jazz eartraining classes, we had to like, listen
to music off a recording and be able tosing it back unaccompanied to the TA.
It was just lots of singingand it was super uncomfortable.
(33:14):
And I remember the first I was in eartraining class, they said, oh, we're going
to sing this like Billie Holiday song.
And the teacher sang itand we'd just sing it back.
And I just like blunderedit and everyone's laughing.
Like everyone was literally laughingat me and I was fine, but it was.
Okay.
I have to get used to doing that, but itstarted later enough in my training that
the never felt super comfortable, buton the same, the flip side, we use our
(33:35):
voice so much more than our instrument.
Most of us talk more than we play.
Well, depends whatstage of life you're in.
I guess there's plenty of timeswhere I played, played saxophone
a lot more than I than I talk, butsometimes when I'm still writing.
So I use my voice as a tool more.
I mean, when I'm teaching a lot andI'm still singing and I'm vocalizing
things that I'm hearing, sometimesI'll sing it and go to the piano, but
it's, it's not something that I'm likecomfortable performing as far as like
(33:59):
an expressive instrument that I'm to beon stage singing anything versus being.
You know, being able to hide in thebackground vocals or something like that.
So I haven't, but it's yeah.
I mean, there has been some, someprojects I was actually working on
songs with words hadn't been recorded,you know, and, and singing a bit,
but it's definitely that's uh, yeah.
(34:22):
That's uh, yeah, you, yeah.
Even talking about thatto making me nervous.
So that's not, it's like anarea that certainly explored
a bit, would like to do.
Yeah, and have that be a, a tool,but I definitely want some of
my students to be singing it.
Like we're singing a lot moreand singing along with drones and
tuning intervals with our voice soI still, I mean, I'll still do that.
Try to sing intervals, but still even asuncomfortable as I would be with singing,
(34:46):
like there are elements of it that stillfeel more natural than having this giant
piece of brass and leather and woodand having that be, uh, be a barrier.
Um, uh, but yeah, just whatyou're saying about that, that
choir, that sounds similar.
In some ways to some projects thatI've been involved in the last few
years, the sound painting, which is aS uh, so I'm in, involved in a ensemble
(35:11):
here in Seattle called Scrambler.
And the leader of that put togetherduring the pandemic, a worldwide
multidisciplinary ensembleof peeping people performing
and recording, uh, online.
But yeah, sound paintingsa to multidisciplinary,
sign language for music.
Basically, we have, you still had, it'sa way of organizing an improvised piece.
(35:34):
Wealth Walter Thompson, who created hedoesn't call it improvisation because it
live composition, which sounds confusing.
So a lot of us still call ita conducted improvisation.
Cause that's what it, what it looks like.
But what's the line betweenbeing composed and improvise.
Another another topic, butyou have this other stuff.
There's a leader in front.
Who's giving a series of signsand gestures, and each gesture
gives some specific informationabout how the performers respond.
(35:57):
But each of us have our own freedomwithin each of those signs to
make some creative decisions.
So it could be like, you know,everyone, you know, everyone's things,
a long tone, you can modify it, orthis person will relate to this.
You improvise and you accompany.
Or this group is playing and nowthis other group will do something
else and you can structure all ofthat with, uh, with the leader.
(36:20):
And there's all, we'veexplored all kinds of things.
I mean, everything from around theholidays, we always deconstruct the
Nutcracker Suite and we have, weactually have charts for reading,
but then there's areas where itgets rearranged and gets goes in.
It gets in, it gets wild and.
But yeah, I felt the pandemiccollaborating with people all over the
(36:41):
world, a clarinet player in Turkey and avisual artist and actor and Argentina and
a violin player in Belgium and a dancerin Texas and visual artists in Munich.
And we all like get together andwe've been producing some of these.
Yeah.
Yeah, these were wild projects.
Um, but it sounds similar in some waysto your Element Choir, maybe we could.
Lauren Best (37:05):
Yeah.
And I mean, I'm imagining that theconductor of the element car Christine
Christine Duncan, it sounds like there'ssome crossover between the, in terms
of the use of signs and the approaches.
And it, when you weretalking about the voice being
vulnerable, I was struck by that.
And how freeing, becauseit is so vulnerable.
(37:25):
I mean, that's something that Iacknowledge like every day to myself
because it, that that's, you know, ithits me in the face, so to speak, right.
Like when I, if I feel like if everwe feel our voices, aren't vulnerable,
we'll learn again that they are in someways, like, you know, as much as we can,
of course, gain confidence and comfort.
Our voices really.
It's a very intimate thing and it'scan be very confusing thing because
(37:47):
we can't see it and, and direct itand perceive it in quite the same
way that we can like dancing in frontof a mirror or something like that.
Um, so yeah, at the time being in theElement Choir, not only for me at the
time as an 18 year old, was it that'slike creative kind of explosion of sorts.
(38:07):
I had done lots of different kinds of.
Improvising and ensemble workthrough theater and movement
and, and other kinds of things.
But.
It was, it was just this great creativemarinade, so to speak, but also a
chance to really explore my voice insome ways that were not like you're
(38:29):
doing a gig, you're making an album,you're this, you know, um, which
is stressful in many ways, right.
As you're trying to elevate your skilland you're trying to not screw up, you
know, and, and perform, but being in anensemble where we're using our voice in.
And really creative ways.
Um, and exploring that aspect ofit was just, it was really cool.
(38:54):
All right.
Around that time.
And I think we, in our conversations,um, I hadn't talked necessarily told
you a lot about the Element Choir,but hearing about Sound Painting.
I was like, oh yeah, I know this.
And even though it's not somethingI'm doing as regularly as.
It feels very, uh, very presentto me because although now it was
many years ago that I was, that Iwas doing, uh, singing with or in
(39:16):
vocalizing with the element choir.
I've done different kinds of soundmaking and improvising since.
And so it's, it's stillfeels very, a moment away
is the element choir stillgoing today is that's
a good question.
I.
That's a very good question.
I was part of an album they recordedand I know they were doing some
(39:36):
really neat projects around thetime I was moving away from Toronto,
which was about six years ago.
And
Steve Treseler (39:42):
That in toronto say, man, now I'm getting a little light bulb.
I'm like, okay, that's whatthat grant proposal can go for.
Why the whole worldwide SoundPainting Ensemble to like be part
of the and join forces with theElement Choir and see what happens.
But yeah, the, uh, the sound paintingit, didn't invent this idea of.
Hand signs like, or, you know, conductedtypes of, uh, improvised pieces.
(40:06):
It's like, there was lotsof folks that have done it.
I mean, I was, I've been part of thegroups that we were doing it even before
new knowing that there was a systemlike that, but this particular one
was created in the seventies, kind ofthis like second generation of avant
garde jazz happening in this creativemusic studio in Woodstock, New York and
there's, but there was someone else atthe same time coming up with a similar
(40:27):
process that's called Conduction.
Conducted improvisation, ButchMorris, and he has ensembles and it
was very similar to sound painting.
I mean, almost identical concepts andthey were just coming up at the same time.
But then.
They found out about each other.
And I think they had a little rivalry.
So I was talking to Walter, thesound painting guy, and he would like
send like spies to the conductionrehearsals and like steal some of the
(40:48):
signs that he tried to make them more.
And, you know, they ended up becominglike great friends and I play in groups
that right or that the do conductionas well, and they have different.
You know, different,different, different flavors.
And I find a conduction, the conductionsystem works really well for musicians
who are more experienced improvisers.
It's like more intuitive and feelsmore like an orchestra conductor with
(41:09):
a baton and sound painting and cangive some more, very specific things.
Especially for when I do this withworkshops with, let's say kids or
adults who have never done thisbefore, and they need a little,
they need some more instructions.
Sound painting can be more specific.
It can also be open and themultidisciplinary angle is, it makes it,
it's a cool, it's a cool story to tellas I'm leading these things and go, oh,
(41:32):
by the way, there's over 1600 signs andartists of all disciplines can do it.
So I have it on my, on theteaching side of things.
I've moved this, the soundpainting direction as that system,
because it's got a cool story.
There's people doing it all overthe world, particularly in Europe.
Um, but there's so many otherother ways to get at and similar.
(41:53):
Similar concepts.
Lauren Best (41:54):
So was that at all and that kind of thing apart of your world,
when you were exploring your, your,the, the technical vocal stuff in, uh,
in school, or was this something thatonly kind of came into your awareness
later on and that you were able to use?
Like, did you get a taste of it earlier?
That kind of got you excited?
Steve Treseler (42:17):
Yeah.
When.
This type of thing it firststarted, I was actually my first
week at it at music school.
So I mean, NEC was a very, I mean,it's this, you know, European classical
conservatory model, but then there wasa small jazz program, like 70 people in
it, but it was very progressive and veryleft-wing as far as jazz programs go
like once you were there, you can kind ofstudy with who you wanted, play, whatever,
(42:39):
almost play, whatever music you wanted.
If you could pass thesolfege, the sight singing.
It was, it was, it was hard to getinto, but once we were there, we were
just like, we had total autonomy.
So it was like, people were really, itwas just a magical environment that people
were working really hard and working ontheir craft, but it was never competitive,
like who is going to make the top band,that everything was just different.
So some people, there were peoplethat were brilliant to, uh, like
(43:05):
playing like Latin American musicand then people that were playing,
you know, straight ahead standard.
The adjust standards and some thatwere doing crazy music, uh, doing
like w like avant-garde experimentsand doing people playing Americana.
And we all kind of find our people andexploring and doing different things.
I think it was the first week of school.
I did a, it was a game piece by John Zorn.
(43:26):
That's called Cobra, which has some,some cue cards and like a sophisticated.
Slightly complex set of rules to learn.
And they're a little abstract.
He never published all of the rules.
So it's a little bit, you had tolearn it orally from John Zorn.
So if you didn't, so there's peoplethat have done it and let it, and
everyone does it a little different.
So there's a little bitof mystery around it.
(43:47):
So he would do a series of gamepieces and it was similar to.
Results like, okay, this groupof people is going to start
now, you copied this person.
Now.
Now when we hold up this sign, youhave to completely change the style
of music you're playing, or you haveto take over for this other musician.
And it was, it was wild.
It was super fun.
People from all differentbackgrounds could come together
and play, but it was learning.
(44:08):
It was fine.
I was theatrical cause someone'swaving around the cue cards and
they're like big colorful signs.
And then some guerrilla tactics whereyou put on a headband and then, and then
you can like try to take over the leader.
And so there's like thistheatrical element happening and
for some very abstract music.
And so that was my first experiencedoing something like that.
And it's, you know, some music that I'veperformed throughout the years, but I
(44:32):
find it super helpful in the educationside when I'm making these like.
Community workshops, whereI'm pulling people together
from different backgrounds,different levels of experience.
And here we can actually improvise.
We can create together without havingit be like a specific musical language
or rhythmic language or it's, itcan be ways it's a little bit more
(44:53):
open that people can just right offthe bat start creating together.
And it's really fun being partof the sound painting ensemble,
but a lot of the music that I'verecorded and played are some more.
Music that's maybe more, slightlymore traditionally composed with
improvised elements, but this is, yeah.
This area has opened up yeah.
Different ways of approachingmusic and listening and
(45:15):
interacting and experimenting and
Lauren Best (45:18):
yeah.
And, and as you say that, I,I realized that as much as I
said, oh, the Element Choirs was
an explosion for me.
And it was, it was more people have agreater diversity of background, many
of whom had other musical projects.
Right.
And other, other, um, expertise.
Right.
So it was a different kindof creative coming together.
(45:39):
Cause there was just more people andwe were performing, I was performing
more often with them, right.
So there's a different type of thing,but that type of ensemble play and
work and uh, different ways of.
Of working together to make creativethings, and sound was actually before
(46:00):
that, for me with theater games.
And so hearing you describe some of thosethings, I was like, ah, you know, as much
as, at that time it was hugely impactful.
I was, I was no stranger to thestrangeness and, you know, I didn't,
I'd been exploring that kind of thing intheater contexts, uh, with, with different
kinds of, of approaches to improvtheater, both for performance and for.
(46:24):
Skill development andfor creative development.
Steve Treseler (46:27):
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
That's something I definitely wantto have future conversations about.
Cause there are that there'sso much to draw from for
multi-disciplinary collaborations.
Wait, what theater people do you know whenyou say improvisation or improv for most
people, some think music and other thinktheater, like those are the most common
associations people people have and.
You know I put together this,I started thinking a lot of my
(46:50):
educational activities and puttingit under this Infinite Improvisation
brand during the pandemic.
But one of the programs that I've beenmost excited about it's called the
Game Symphony Workshop, which is takingsome of those elements from, uh, from
theater games or sketch comedy andworking with working with musicians.
So I don't have that theater backgroundof, of like a high school drama
(47:12):
class, but I've studied some of these
I've studied some of these games.
And also talk with someone who led agroup of musicians who were like doing
improvised music for the Second CityTheater in Chicago, and doing like
improvised soundtracks to improvisedtheater and pulling that together.
(47:33):
And I find that that's really helpful.
I mean, as a, as a process and, and tomake interesting music, but re really.
Helpful for, as I was, as, as theprocess or helping people along who
cause there's so much fear and anxietyaround improvising and being a soloist,
I'm like, we're going to play a guessthe animal, and you're going to make
chicken sounds in front of your friends.
(47:54):
And it's just so disarming and peopleare just more loose for being creative
and spontaneous and, and, you know, usingthe novelty to get people engaged and
feel like it's a community experienceand using that as the gateway to more.
I don't want to say more serious,but more like listening intensive
and other composition andimprovisation and all of that.
(48:17):
So,
Lauren Best (48:18):
well, it's part of it too.
Like what mindset are weapproaching things with?
And is it w you know, are weapproaching things with a sense
of fun and play and exploration?
Or are we goal or product focused.
And I, and I don't mean to saythat there isn't a place for being
goal and product focused of course.
Right.
Um, and those, like, there can beintersections in that for sure.
(48:41):
But, um, it can be funtoo, to mix things up.
I find the more that I believe in improv,um, which, which is a question I have,
which we may be saving for a future,a future episode, which is like, we
talked about the why of improv, but youknow, the personal connection of why,
why I believe, you know, like, likewhy believe in it, but, um, the more
(49:06):
I believe that it's a good thing to do.
The more I thrust myself and otherfolks into doing it when they aren't
expecting to like, you know, in anearly childhood class, I'm much more.
And by that, I mean, like with babiesand parents online, I'm more, much
more likely now to be like, You canjust improvise a little, you know,
a little solo here at this partof the song for your baby, please.
(49:28):
I promise your baby will like it.
Go ahead.
You're muted, no harm in it.
Give it a try.
Come on.
You know, and as much as I that's aninvitation, I never forced anyone to,
but kind of just, just throwing it inthere and seeing, seeing what happens.
Right.
Integrating it more often.
Steve Treseler (49:46):
As we navigate this, this will be its own when we get to the, how,
but talking about the element of play.
So when we talk about, oh, something'splayful and fun and the game has this
idea of, oh, it's, you know, it'strivial and not, and not serious, not
serious music, but there's this quoteI just brought up and we'll come back
to this in a future episode as well.
(50:07):
But this is Stephen Nachmanovitch , hisother book, not the one I sent you.
It's what's called Free Play.
But he talking about this idea yetthe free play improv improvisation.
Life and art, I believe isthe tagline, uh, that I, I
love how he pulls us together.
So he says there there's an oldSanskrit word, Lila, which means
play, but richer than our word.
(50:27):
It means divine play the play ofcreation, destruction and recreation,
the folding and unfolding of thecosmos Lila free and deep is both
delight and enjoyment of this moment.
It's the play of God.
And it also means love.
Lauren Best (50:41):
And I, I think we better leave it there yeah.
Because that, I can't sumit up better than that.
Steve Treseler (50:49):
Uh, I mean, that's, it we're plant, you
know, it could be playing a game.
It could be.
You know, universe spittingout planets, you know?
So it's like it's.
Yeah.
So
Lauren Best (51:01):
and so it spirals.
Steve Treseler (51:03):
Yeah.
All right.
Well,
Lauren Best (51:06):
we'll leave you wanting more.
Good.
Okay.
Well, thanks.
Thanks for listening.
Go to infinite improvisation.comand you can connect with
us in our online community.
And we'll see you next time.
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