Who Are We? Part 2

S1 E4: Who Are We? Part 2   Infinite Improvisation Podcast: adventures in music and creativity with Steve Treseler and Lauren Best. Learn about your hosts Steve and Lauren—where they are coming from, and why improvising and creativity are important in their lives.   For a transcription of this episode and more: https://infiniteimprovisation.podbean.com/e/who-are-we-part-2   Get updates and exclusive community content by signing up for our email newsletter at: www.infiniteimprovisation.com/podcast

Episode Transcript

(00:07):
Welcome to the InfiniteImprovisation Podcast: Adventures
in Music and Creativity.
I am Seattle-based saxophonist,Steve Treseler and joined
by Lauren Best in Ontario
Great to be here again.
Yeah.
So this is a continuation of our whopilot episode, a little who about
who we are about who we are and ourstories and why this work is important.

(00:31):
Um, yeah, this needed, uh, thisneeded a part two because we just,
just scratched the surface last time.
So,
yeah.
So I want him to takeit back long, long ago.
Um, and ask you about some of the, kindof, when we talk about that, why the work
has an important sort of some of the earlysparks or kind of what helped you catch

(00:54):
a fire, so to speak in your own practice?
Yeah.
So I started playing music wellactually in public school band.
Yeah I had played,played clarinet in band.
They wouldn't let us start on saxophone.
So had to maybe stick with clarinet fora couple of years, but I mean, growing
up younger, like my dad was a guitarplayer and played in a, in a cover

(01:14):
band, played some guitar and bass.
And sometimes we noodled aroundwith some instruments, but I
never had any lessons growing up.
So my musical journey really started onceI was in instrumental music in, in fifth
grade band playing the playin he clarinet.
And I remember even my firstband concert leading up to it.

(01:35):
I really liked the song that wewere playing in fifth grade band.
But then I was at homelike practicing my part.
It was just really not satisfying to beplaying second clarinet by myself, but
I really liked playing the whole song.
So I was just rememberingthis the other day.
You know, but I wanted to beable to play the song on my own.
And like one day after class, one of thetrumpet players left their music on the

(01:57):
floor and it had the melody of the song.
And I like was so I like snatched it up.
And then I was, I had this likelittle cassette Fisher-Price cassette
recorder and I recorded myselfand playing the clarinet part.
And then I was like, livelike playing for my family.
Look, I can play the song.
Now you're doing a little overdubwith myself and just seem like,
yeah, this is what I'm doing.
But that may have been a sign.
You know, I was into doing this andrecording and, and all that, but sticking

(02:21):
with clarinet and until well lets seewhat one of the earliest sparks was.
It was my second year playing and I wasin a regional honor band type situation.
So kids from a bunch of, a bunchof schools came together that
were auditioned to, to be in it.
And people are serious about playingand playing some trickier music and

(02:44):
the band was bigger and all that,but at the concert, there was.
There was a, another sixth graderwho was a tenor saxophone player.
And I think we're playing thetheme song to Peter Gunn and our
band band repertoire and this kidplayed a solo on it on saxophone.
He was taking lessons and he improvised,he played like blues solo on top of this.
And I was just mesmerized.
I was like, that is so cool.

(03:05):
Sam is so cool.
Like I, I want to do that.
Um, in that, just like that plantedthe seed and it was another, maybe
like another year later when my banddirector, uh, Bruce Leven, who just,
who just retired, we're still, we'restill in, we're still in touch and,
and friends and played gigs together.
But he's the one that got thatsaxophone in my hands and I was,

(03:29):
you had to get ready to get readyfor seventh grade jazz band.
And I actually, and then Iauditioned on clarinet, but I just
was not taking anything seriously.
And I didn't make, I got cutfrom my middle school jazz band.
So I wasn't, I didn't make it.
And he was enough of a softiethat I was like, oh, please,
can I take lessons or whatever?
And then he, it inevitablybroke down and let me join.
And if I took lessons over the summer,which I did, and I wasn't that great

(03:50):
of a student, but Sam, my sixth gradehero was actually in band with me in
eighth grade and we were stand partners.
So I sat next to him and he was his,his dad was really into jazz and got
him listening to a lot of things.
So I sat next to him.
I was in his shadow a lotof the time, which was fine.
Cause he was really experienced andjust learning a lot and getting into it.
And I went over to his house and hewas playing John Coltrane for me.
And he's like, have youever listened to free jazz?

(04:11):
I'm like, what's that?
He's playing like OrnetteColeman's double quartet.
And I was like, whoa, what is this?
I've never heard anything.
Like, you know, it's likethe counterculture of, oh,
this isn't what we're doing.
And in, in jazz band.
And then later on, I think, yeah,once I was in high school, I ended
up connecting with Sam's teacherthat he had studied with for years.

(04:32):
And that's when things really took off.
I was taking it more seriously myselfand was connected with a really
good teacher who was a Bruce Wilson.
He was a woodwind doubler.
So he played a lot of.
The sh the musical theater, pitorchestra shows and weddings and
corporate events and jazz gigs.
He was a very versatile woodwind player.
And when I connected with him, he wasa great teacher and the time that I was
ready to ready to take it seriously.

(04:55):
Nice.
I, I love so many aspectsof that story one.
Cause I just, I like as someone whoI have my own kids, I work with kids.
I know what some of those momentslook like and feel like to me
observing them in the moment.
So I love imagining little Steve.
Oh, I got a picture.
Maybe I can include it with my likepair everywhere in my cheeks, puffed

(05:16):
out, blowing into this clarinet.
So
yeah, I actually, I just, I postedrecently a picture of, for my own
childhood on Instagram and my best friendis singing beside me and I have my ears
covered, like my hands over my ears.
And I'm just looking so unimpressed.
Um, but what I w one of the things, well,few things like like struck me about that,

(05:39):
um, about that story, but one is like,just at the very beginning that you had
this feeling of playing with the band andlike you knew you liked that feeling and
then trying to recreate that on your own.
And this is something I talkedto students a lot about, right.
That, that feeling of it'ssomething we kind of touched upon

(06:01):
of being like enchanted by music.
I think that was one of your favoritewords, the musical enchantment,
um, feeling, or another way ofthinking of that as like flow states.
Right.
But that, you know, we allknow what it's like to kind of
get lost in a musical moment.
For some people, they, might've onlyexperienced that listening or dancing, but
for those of us who've played with others.
Like we know that feeling, but then topractice, we're often doing it alone and

(06:26):
we're not even close to that feeling.
And we're trying to kind of figure outhow to, how to square those things.
And, um, I love that, that, that,that is so clear to you and your
memory, even at the very earlystage of stage of your journey.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so, and, and those of us that are,you're trained to be ensemble players.
Like we get this, you know, the,the high feeling of performance and

(06:46):
it's, it's, we're part of the group.
And we feel like we're right.
I mean, right off the bat, we'reconnected to this community and
contributing to something bigger.
But then when we're on our own practicingin isolation, it's like preparing for it.
It's disconnected from theactual act of creating music.
Whereas a lot of folks that maybeare playing guitar or piano,
they're totally in isolation a lotof the time, but you can have more

(07:06):
of a complete musical experience.
A lot of your piano pieces, you know, itis you can, if you want that feeling of a
complete musical piece, uh, you're able.
Access to that, but you oftentimesare more isolated and don't
have that community don't havethat community experience of,
of belonging in your training.

(07:26):
And yeah, during the pandemic,there's so many musicians that were
used to having that complete musicalexperience in a group with other people.
And now we're isolated and the practicingbeing disconnected from the performance
or the actual act of creation.
It was really, yeah.
A lot of people were just ina major slump, not, not being
able, not being able to do that.
And I was really encouraged.

(07:47):
I mean, myself and all my students doto work on some unaccompanied pieces
where, you know, playing your instrument,this is the complete piece of music or
starting to experiment with technologyand digital audio workstations and
produce pieces of music that you don'thave to wait around for the pandemic
to end, to be able to play, playwith the play with the band again.

(08:08):
Yeah.
And interestingly, when I teach pianoor when I play piano, part of it is.
Choosing when we play with two handsas two voices, or maybe with two hands,
but kind of functionally as one voice.
Right.
Versus when we separate them.
And we, we work on work on our handsseparately or imagining voices separately.

(08:32):
And I, uh, I often talk to studentsabout the idea of, you know, what if
one of your hands was a saxophone playeror was a flute player, or was a, you
know, some other instrument, right?
Whatever they, or, or a voice.
Right.
And to imagine, instead of it beingpiano, where you have 10 fingers, you

(08:53):
know, to really imagine one note at atime, uh, because it can feel wonderful
to play lots of notes and to explorethe full range of the piano, and to
play with both our hands and to likeimmerse ourselves in that complexity.
Um, so it's, it's, it'sinteresting, like the different
experiences that can come to.

(09:13):
And from that also as someone who's spenta lot of time accompanying myself singing
and that adds a whole other aspect of it.
Yeah.
The other thing I loved about your storywas the, was getting refused into band
because I also, as a piano player, Ididn't have like a wind instrument.
Uh, and I wanted to join the orchestra,but I didn't have the skills I

(09:36):
in, in those kinds of instruments.
So, uh, I was playing piano injazz band, but I, I was, I was
thinking, wow, this is great.
I'm used to practicing pianoalone and singing in choirs.
Like I can be in this kind ofensemble, but I didn't get refused.
The conductor very nicely, like putme on whatever, extra percussion
instruments there were in the arrangement.

(09:57):
So I was like playing thejuice jug for one song.
It was a juice jug filledwith like marbles and water.
And it was like a riverboat song.
And that was my role.
And I played mallets for something else.
I wasn't, I definitely wasn't reallyfully integrated on an instrument
even though I wasn't kicked out.
Yeah.
So I have that startin my back pocket too.
You know, if I have a student who'sjust really upset that they didn't make

(10:18):
the top band instead of something, youknow, it's like, well, you know, this,
this stuff happens to all of us inour, in our journey, but yeah, in this
clime I mean, there are certain musicprograms now that are hyper competitive.
So like you get cut and you're just out.
So th this one, it ended up being a greatprogram, but it wasn't super competitive.
It wasn't pushing these eighthgraders to sound, you know, sound
better than high school students.

(10:39):
So there was another.
Yeah, Bruce Lavan was very muchabout, you know, we're exploring our
instruments and having a good timeand bringing the community together.
And there's a lot of people from thatband that went on to be great musicians.
But I really appreciate that flexibilitywhere if I was showing up with that same
attitude or level of skills and some ofthese high level programs that are around
me now, like in not making the band.
Yeah.
Sorry, we've got a wholearmy of saxophone players.

(11:01):
And even in the band I wasin, there was extra players.
They didn't need me in the group,but I wouldn't have had that
space to grow and really findthe spark to really get into it.
Cause I just wouldn't havebeen competitive and been cut.
And who knows what would happen?
I think you and I both have a, have apassion for, for taking music outside of

(11:22):
the competitive sphere, as much as there.
I mean, well the utility ofcompetition is another episode.
Um, but, uh, especially nowadays rightwhere we're there are, go on YouTube
and see a million videos of very youngchildren, young man, a million, many
videos, a very young children excelling.

(11:43):
Right.
But that, uh, sometimes we really buildup like the child star, the prodigy,
like people who haven't, who, who soundbeyond their years or beyond the amount
they've, they've done something, butthat it's not always a predictor of
future success or of, um, like futurepositioning and that for myself like

(12:05):
that definitely wasn't my, I mean, insome ways, of course, I, I had certain
gifts or talents or whatever, but therewere many ways where it felt like I was
struggling and like I was like behind the,uh, Behind the prime to, to learn and,
and starting about talking a little later.
And I started playing piano when I wasnine and I felt like it was too late.

(12:26):
Like, you know, I knew other kidswho'd been studying since they were
younger and it felt like they werefurther along and it felt like I
would never catch up so to speak.
And it's, it's a very weird thing tothink, like as a child, I felt like
my time had passed already, you know?
Yeah.
That's um, that's yeah.
That's so well, I saw this little memeinfographic, you know that the tie,

(12:49):
you know, it's like your lifespan andhere's when you, you know, here's your
born and here's, here's your death.
And then here's your point, you know,where you think it's too late, but the
point where it's actually too late, it'slike after you're dead, but all that time
in the middle of that, there's, there's somuch, and you have plenty of people that,
that, that are prodigies or super giftedkids that either burn out or suddenly,

(13:10):
you know, they're not a cute littlekid anymore than they're the teenager.
You're a middle-aged person and thenovelty of being young and doing.
And sometimes a lot of the great feedbackthey got is that the, from people,
you know, growing about how greatthey are for their age, and then when
that, when that whole system goes orthat, that whole environment changes,

(13:32):
you know, what's going to keep, keepthem sticking with it for, for decades
and some do and some don't, but thenthe, yeah, the late, late bloomers,
you know, have plenty of all right.
It's not even late.
I don't know.
But people did start not, not super young.
Um,
yeah, uh, different, like manydifferent journeys to end up in
the same room, having a greattime playing music together.

(13:53):
But, uh, I often wonder when.
Like w telling children or, or,you know, students or even adults,
um, you know, telling them aboutpossible sources of inspiration.
Right.
And, you know, like, do I send like anexample video that's really cool to see,
but it's a very young child playing ina way that seems beyond their years.

(14:15):
And, you know, whether it canbecome a Sam moment that results
in a lot of inspiration thatbecomes really catalyzing.
That kind of makes us think twice thatthat's just inspiring or whether there's
like a subtle form of pressure or aform of like putting on a pedestal,
a very specific kind of performance,because we don't see the process.

(14:37):
Right.
And, you know, there could beextraordinarily valuable process and
learning happening that never results.
That kind of outcome.
That sounds great.
On a video.
So I, I often think about these things.
Yeah, absolutely.
And then later on, like when I was inhigh school, that's when I really got
into it and I was practicing a lot.
I was just didn't even feel like Iwas disciplined in practicing law.
I just always had my horn in mymouth and I was playing a lot.

(14:57):
And then I, you know, that then Ibecame a very strong player for my
age and was like winning things.
And then he's like, oh,you are so talented.
You have such a gift.
And I was like, well, no, it didn'tfeel like a good, like, I was just,
I really liked playing and I did ita lot and I'm like excelling at it.
So yeah, it never, it never reallyfelt like that I had, yeah, that
I was just a natural, other than Iwas drawn to being interested in it.

(15:21):
It's just like that with anything.
Cause my, uh, I dunno, my goodold Bob Ross, I was Bob Ross for a
Halloween a couple of years back.
But you know, he said that thetalent is pursued interest.
Yeah, exactly.
Um, that actually brings me back to the,the Sam story where that has stuck out.
I was reading.
A book by Dan Coyle, it's called TheTalent Code, you know, sort of the
research on how we develop talent,which, you know, a lot of the research

(15:44):
says, you know, it's not, it's notjust a talent gene where you're
brought, you come out of the womb andyou're talented and some are talented.
And some aren't that there'slike looking at ways that certain
people prepare or live theirlives in a way to, to grow talent.
And some of it is no, you know, nomystery, like deliberate practice.
So lots of skill development and doingit in a thoughtful goal-oriented way.

(16:08):
No surprise there.
I know there's like three of thesepillars or whatever he calls them.
And second is master coaching.
So you're getting instruction orteach from, from someone who's,
uh, who's an expert teacher, butthe third is ignition, you know,
just like that burst of motivation.
And that can, that, that the practicecan happen a little baby steps over
time, but the ignition can just take off.

(16:29):
And one of the most powerful sourcesof that can be a model of someone.
Um, you know, in your community,someone that's like you from your
same town, that's doing somethinglike, wow, you know, if Sam can do
it, that's something I can do too.
I mean, I was listening tosome great jazz recordings.
I've listened to Charlie Parker andJohn Coltrane and I'm like, okay.
Yeah.
Wow, they're amazing.
But then you see some other kiddoing it and it's like, oh wow,

(16:52):
they're doing, that's something,that's something that I can do.
And something we can, wesee professionally too.
It's like, oh, look atwhat this person is doing.
That's cool.
Maybe that's somethingthat I could do as well.
So that's that really stuck out as Iwas reading that book, I'm like, oh,
that's really what happened to me.
And some other situations whereI saw someone doing it and
like, wow, that is so cool.
That person is so cool.
Like I just want to, I want to do that.

(17:12):
And it's, and knowing it's possiblemakes, makes all the difference
rather than feeling like, oh, am Inot gifted enough to do this thing?
It's like, well, if they're good,good kind of social pressure.
Yeah.
Absolutely seeing that model and seeingthat there's so much we can learn from
models that can't be explained, right.
Where we're.
It's we're, we're noticing allkinds of details that we aren't

(17:34):
necessarily even noticing consciously.
Right.
And not only about the, you know,the technique or the aesthetic or the
whatever we're noticing about that, butalso, you know, things about like the
energy and the, um, like, you know, theeffort or the personality or the story.
And I'm thinking about the, like thekind of bravery or courage aspect of it.

(17:58):
And that in the, uh, like, I don't knowif it's, that's talked about in The
Talent Code or not, but it, I thinkof that when you're talking about,
oh, people say, oh, you're talented.
It's like, well, no, I it's maybe, but Ipractice like I'm spending time doing it.
But I think part of it too, is like,like I was gonna say spending time facing
the darkness, but what I mean about thatis like, there's rough spots, you know?

(18:21):
And, and, and we've talked aboutperformance and nerves and, like there
are feelings that we can mistake fordanger and that we can mistake for
being assigned that something's wrongbecause it feels weird or it feels bad.
And, you know, kind of integrating thatand being like, oh, I noticed that.
And then I work with it becauseI have these other, these other

(18:42):
aspects of, of like, of the coachingand, uh, of the inspiration, like,
you know, develop developing me.
So it's worth being brave and it'sworth having courage through some of
those, those rougher aspects throughbeing discouraged or, you know, not,
not making the cut for something or,uh, just all those micro moments of it.

(19:03):
Not, not going the way you want, butbeing like I'm going to keep going
anyways.
Yeah.
And why like, when is the benefitsreally kind of, uh, uh, outweigh the,
the scary feelings or the risk, or,you know, we're talking about, you
know, risk or doing something thatmakes us feel uncomfortable on purpose.

(19:23):
A lot of it, like, whywould we want to do that?
And actually I have that aslike a possible topic too.
Like at what point do we know thatthe benefits are going to outweigh
that it's so important to us,that we will make ourselves feel
uncomfortable or take risks on purpose.
When a lot of the times those are thethings that we will naturally avoid.
And there's lots of other risks or scarythings that we it's a good idea to avoid.

(19:45):
So when, when is it worth it to takethose, take those emotional, it's an
emotional labor rather than physicalthreats for most of our, well, it depends
what your performance piece is, but yeah,it's that that kind of emotional labor,
when when do we when and why do we do it?
But although social exclusionfeels like physical injuries.

(20:07):
So
Yeah, absolutely.
That's wired into thesame, same alarm system.
That's a whole nother, yeah.
The public speaking or playing a solo, assoon as you feel like you're going to be
kicked out of the group, you know, how.
Yeah, that's a whole other talk, butyeah, you feel like you're, you know, it's
our ancestors, if you got booted out ofyour community, you'd get you'd starve
to death or get eaten by a predator.

(20:27):
So it's still so hard wiredthose, some of those feelings
when we know it's not physicallydangerous, but our whole primitive
yeah the limbic system just goes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think as facilitators, likethis becomes so central, right?
Because it's, it's like what containersor contexts do we set up so that people

(20:48):
can explore and provide information andcan explore creativity and can get those
benefits we're talking about and of cankind of enter into our belief because
when we see people in those situations,sometimes what they anticipate or expect
of themselves is a certain thing and whatwe imagine they can do and what we have
conviction that like, we, like, we believethat they can do is so much beyond that.

(21:10):
You know?
And, and, and we imagine and believetons of possibilities that perhaps in
that moment, The people who are juststarting to experiment with this kind of
thing, might not have thought they weregoing to be doing that today and might
not have thought that would be possible.
Yeah.
And that's, that's one, one area wherewe come together with our experiences,

(21:31):
which is facilitating communityexperiences around creativity or
improvisation and music and something.
Yeah.
I've got a bazillion questions for youabout, but as I, as I've been, you know,
teacher, educator in this space thatthere's so much fear and anxiety with a
lot of people, some have had traumaticexperiences around this in the past that

(21:54):
that's so much of this kind of teachingisn't about, you know, the skills or
the material or the tips or the tricksit's building the right environment.
And I've been comingwith just different ways.
Sidestepping the fear response, it's somuch of that as if we're doing something
as a group and it feels like the doingthe creative thing makes you feel like
you belong, and you're part of something.

(22:15):
It just eases all those, uh, thefight flight freeze response, just
like, you know, public speakingis, uh, did I already say the
Seinfeld joke on a previous?
Give it to us again.
Maybe this is the second time, maybeyou weren't listening to the other
episode or I didn't say it at all, buthe says that there was this, there was,

(22:35):
you know, there's a study that saidthat public speaking is the number one
is the number one fear among adults.
And number two is death.
So which means that you have to beat a funeral, you'd rather be in
the casket than doing the eulogy.
So there's, uh, so muchthat is again, yeah.
Feeling like you're, you'repart of something, whereas

(22:58):
where I was going with that.
Something like public speaking isscary, but having a conversation
with your friends, it just flows.
It's not scary talking.
Isn't scary.
It's being put on the spot and havingeveryone looking at you and judging
you and potentially like throwingyou out so a saber tooth tiger can
get you, like, that's the scary part.
So we can frame these experiencesin ways where you don't have
to face the fears and fight it.
You just like sidestep it by changingthe culture and changing the experience.

(23:20):
I mean, that's my, yeah.
One of my big takeaways from doingthis, doing this work, making
those, those kinds of situations.
Yeah, and I think when you do thiskind of work, you see what's possible.
So I've been thinking about, youknow, watch what were some have
formative moments like that.
And, uh, when I was 15, over the summer,I took part in a theater workshop.

(23:41):
It was like, you know, an intensivewhere we were developing a new
work, which already was pretty cool.
Right.
I'd been like involved in.
More more coming from like amusical theater background.
Um, so, and doing some, some dramagames and things like that, but not play
creation and not doing the, uh, activitiesthat were like going as deep with

(24:04):
improv as I ended up, um, participatingin and that the theater company is
called Sheatre and they still exist.
And the play ended up beingcalled far from heart.
So I, it was a play about datingviolence and about sexual assault,
which is kind of a lot to be likecreating a new work about as a teenager.
But we, we did it.
And, uh, and so the reason this waslike doable is that it's a form of

(24:29):
theater called theater of the oppressed,and there's different branches of
theater, a theater of the oppressedand theater for social change.
And that's something thatSheatre specializes in.
So they'd done other projects thathad to do with, um, with meaningful
and impactful subject subject.
So the way form theater works isthat a problem play is presented.

(24:52):
Uh, so a relatively short play that has,has all these issues, things don't end
well, and then it's shown again, andthe action stopped at certain points and
the audience is invited to get up andreplace a character and intervene and
improv out an alternate solution to someof the problems that come up in the play.

(25:13):
So here I was having been part of thisgroup that created a, created this play.
And I, like, I kind of understood whatI was getting into, but of course,
like you don't really know what it'sall about and until you're doing it,
um, and we presented this play, wecreated including with interventions
at several local high schools.
So not only had kind of my perceptionof what theater is, how we create

(25:37):
theater, how I create theater, likewho I am in that context, not only
was that stretched, I then saw.
All of these people who were not planningon getting up on stage that day, getting
up on stage and improv and these alternatesolutions to things that, especially at
that time, no one really wants to evenlike talk about, um, you know, like

(25:59):
teenagers, aren't typically talking aboutdating with their teachers and stuff,
and yet we're in the school and they'relike, you know, um, uh, like trying to
find solutions onstage to these issues.
Uh, so that was, I really likejust kind of life changing project.
And I ended up doing other, beinginvolved in other things with
the theater, uh, after that, thatboth, both with far from the heart.

(26:22):
Um, and also with other projects whereI was really introduced to just all
kinds of generative improv that thatwas then like used and incorporated
in professional productions.
And that was like, it just, it, it reallyshowed me the power of improv to be.
Taken to, um, a really impactfuland professional level, as well as

(26:43):
having that personal transformation.
And so it kind of modeled forme the social change aspects of
creative work really early and putme really in the middle of that.
And right from the beginning,there were some cool, innovative
things about that project.
So the local TV station, Rogers TVfilmed one of those performances and
they took like phone in interventionsif people wanted to do so.

(27:06):
And then later the play wasturned into, well, it was
toured with professional actors.
It's been translated into Frenchand, uh, like been mounted several
times that way, but it's alsobeen turned into an interactive
film, which still lives online.
I ended up.
Uh, both being part ofthe production process.
And I did a little bit acting inthat phone too, which was a really

(27:26):
amazing experience as a young person.
Um, so, so like right from thebeginning, there's this kind of
intersection of different art formsof technology of social change.
And that was like, boom, really,really it's like, it's exciting.
But it also, from the beginning, likeI was thinking about how creativity

(27:47):
applied to this really big stuff andkind of like the responsibility of being
a creative person, because, you know,from the beginning, the kind of ripples
that and impact that that can have.
Wow.
So that holy cow that's,that's incredible.
So is that, tell me a little bitthat organization, that was, it was

(28:08):
a, it was a community organization?
Yeah.
So how did you get connected withthat when you were in high school?
How did that, how did that happen?
Cause that's not how that typicalI'm imagining that is not something
that most youth have access to likebeing part of a production like that.
Like yeah.
How does that, how does that happen?
That's incredible,
Yes, it
was a nonprofit, uh, theaterand, you know, arts education,

(28:32):
community arts, uh, organization.
And I've since been involvedin a whole bunch of different
projects that Sheatre's done.
So it really was a kind of likeit's led to so many things.
And at that time, I mean, it wascommunity arts, like starting
really at the grassroots.
I remember I did an, like anaudition for it in the library,

(28:53):
like in a room in the library.
I think I probably saw a poster for it orsomething probably also at the library.
Like it was really, uh,a grassroots initiative.
To reach out to youth locally, um, whichis something I've tried to do myself
census, like reach back out directlyinto the community and, and create those
opportunities like from that point andalso create those opportunities digitally.

(29:19):
Right?
So that, that youth do haveaccess to these, these kinds
of opportunities more broadly.
And in, in that case, you know, theshow toured and, and youth more broadly
were able to see a little bit ofwhat the theater of the oppressed is.
There are, there are other formsof theater of the oppressed.
So like another form, uh, is legislativetheater, which is using theater

(29:39):
to inform legislation, to informgovernments, which is also something
that she had her has done, uh, in,in the losing the Ontario legislator
legislature, the Ontario governmentaround changing laws around midway.
Yeah.
Uh, so yeah, lots of, lots of reallyinteresting stuff around theater of

(30:00):
the oppressed that is really inspiring.
And I think like, I'm, I'm curiouswhat music can, can take from that.
Right.
And what we can take fromthat across other art forms.
Wow.
Yeah.
I'm wondering, I mean, if, you know,there's people that weren't planning
on being performers that jumped up onstage, and I guess that element that

(30:22):
you're, you know, it's not about youand if you're improvising something
clever or cool or virtuosic, it'slike you're part of something more
important, like a, you know, a heavysocietal issue and being, being part of
a solution and with a group of people,if that, um, if that's what would help
inspire someone to jump up on stage.

(30:46):
You know, wouldn't maybe wouldn't havevolunteered when, I mean, so often when
we're starting these improvised practices,even theater, like it's kind of like
light-hearted and games and comedy.
And I do this musically that it'slike, okay, it's not, it's not
heavy or have these huge societalimplications, what you're talking about.
Like, we're gonna start somethinglike light and fun and the game and
then get into the heavier stuff.

(31:07):
But this is just hittingit, hitting it head on.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, there'sdifferent approaches, right?
I take the game and thelighthearted approach a lot.
And even in that project, right.
We were like in the development ofit and even in the performance of
it, there's lighthearted moments.
But I think sometimes I think there'ssomething to be said for what you're
describing in terms of raising the stakescreates a different kind of collective

(31:30):
importance to what's happening, right.
Or like, you know, getting towhat really matters to people.
On one hand getting to play, we couldtalk about how getting to play is
so important, but on the other hand,when you're, when you're in a group,
uh, in a performance setting, right?
Like creating the space forthat setting the stage for that.
So there, so that there's adegree of reverence almost right.

(31:53):
Of the, of the importance and that waypeople support each other and, and,
and are more likely to feel invested.
Yeah.
So, so you had mentioned that some ofthese other, uh, experiences or workshops
that you, as you as a facilitator andI've got, we could spend so much time
on each, each, each one of these too.

(32:14):
Cause I mean, yeah, so far, you know,I've heard about you doing workshops,
as you say, across the lifespan frombabies to seniors and you do online
music classes for a group classes forpreschoolers, and I'm just fascinated
to hear any more details about those,or maybe just sort of what your.
What maybe some overarching philosophiesor approaches are for building those

(32:35):
community, or even just giving usan overview, because I know a lot
of folks listening anyone from, frommy circle that I'm bringing in, in
the musical improvisation world.
But hearing about some of thesethings that you're doing is just
totally, totally different fromanything where we're used to in the
improvisation world or just, yeah.
Anyway, it's kind of open-ended but I wantto hear about some of those experiences.

(32:58):
Yeah.
So I suppose when I was sorry, I.
Uh, took part in the artist educatedprofessional training program at the
Royal conservatory, which was artistsof different disciplines coming
together to learn how to be artisteducators, basically to use, uh, to

(33:18):
not only educate in their art form.
Right?
So like teaching music,teaching about music, right.
Or teaching music for the sake of music ordance for the sake of dance, but to also
think about teaching through the art form.
Right.
So, so social change, um, through thearts is one of one example, but we can
also think about math through music or,you know, social studies through dance

(33:42):
or science through, you know, we can,uh, science, visual arts, or there, there
can be different combinations of that.
Um, and so within that experience, notonly did I see, uh, like models for
facilitating for creativity, In differentart forms and how, how that looks, but

(34:06):
also just the prioritizing of creativechoice points in arts activities, right.
Where we've talked about in music, forexample, like rehearsing is different
than exploring creativity, right?
And sometimes efforts in the arts canbecome about I'm sorry, by efforts.
I mean like learning ensemble work,like it can become about a thing we're

(34:30):
working towards and preparing for that.
Right.
And it becomes basicallyrehearsal leading to performance.
And sometimes in facilitation wecan accidentally fall into the same,
into the same groove, so to speak.
And so like, to be clear, I don'tfacilitate with 100% improvisation.

(34:52):
Not at all.
There are lots of reasons that Idon't do that in different contexts.
Right.
But.
Once you prioritize involving peoplein making creative choices, you start
to find other ways to include it.
And sometimes it can be included insomething like a single long format.

(35:15):
So especially being online, someof the programs I do for babies
with their parents have, havequite a singalong aspect where
we're learning songs together.
We're jamming out those songs.
You know, it has a bit of a campfiresingalong vibe except online.
But even within that, you can createcreative choices for the participants

(35:36):
and what some of those might becreative choices in that moment.
But some of those also are kind of openingup wonderings for later, opening up,
you know, possibilities, just differentoptions, different ways of trying it.
So instead of.
You know, here's the song we're singing.
Here are the words.
I'm going to tell you what they are.
We're going to sing exactly thosewords and clap along with me, clap

(36:00):
with me, clap with me like, youknow, and there's definitely a place
for that in terms of just gettingeveryone going and getting everyone
comfortable with being in the song.
However, there are optionsfor that too, right?
Like you can clap along with.
You could sway with the beat, right?
You could hum.
Instead of singing, right.

(36:21):
You could also like do something.
That's not clapping along with the beat,but some other way of beat keeping, right.
Someone could quietly hum a soloto themselves while everyone else
is singing the song some way, likethere's, there's suddenly all these
other options that we don't evennecessarily always have to say, right.
People will naturallysing and dance along.

(36:42):
But I think starting toframe it in terms of options.
So it's less like, okay, do this, dothis and more about creating lots of
different options for people to access amoment together, you know, and participate
in different ways in that, includinglistening, especially for children, right.
That being part of it and listeningand maybe like a swaying or

(37:06):
something is already participation.
Like it's that, that can be enough.
Um, Yeah.
To create different options up to thenlike the idea of actually just like going
totally in an, in an improvised direction.
That's, that's kind of some, somy overarching philosophy, right.
Is how to create more options andmodel creative choices for people

(37:30):
in a way that starts small and easy.
And then we can, we can develop kind ofstructures that extend that more and more.
Wow.
And that, yeah, and that makes, thatmakes so much sense, but we expanded into
some other areas where, you know, we'retalking about the sing along and that's,
you know, children will know we'll haveall these options, no problem singing

(37:54):
or play or however they want to engage.
But I mean, I'm just imagining taking thatto like a symphony orchestra or something.
Oh.
Instead of playing what's writtendown, you could sway along or you
could hum your part or creative choice.
Like so many people are conditioned,like, please don't give me choices.
Like what do I need to do?
How can I be mistake free?
What do I need to do to get an A,all right, and then let's go on, you

(38:14):
know, it can be something like that.
Totally intuitive for kids.
And then based on whatever it is about oureducation or, or culture that that would,
that would be such a, um, a differentexperience for many groups of adults.
Well, and that's the thing too, is, ismeeting people where they're at to help

(38:35):
them feel safe and you give them veryspecific choices sometimes and open-ended
choices at other times, because ofcourse I could give everyone extremely
open-ended choices and that might bechallenging for some people, right.
So sometimes it is about narrowing it.
So.
People can step into that and believein themselves and also so that they,

(38:56):
like, they know what to expect.
They're invited in a waythat makes sense to them.
Right?
So like, if I invite you to come onover and jam, you might like, you might
start just playing a part that fits in.
Right.
If I invite you to just come over,you're probably going to chat with me.
You're not going to play saxophoneback at me because like that, you

(39:19):
know, that's, that's taking it too far.
Right.
So like being very, and I know thatsounds silly and obvious, but when
we're facilitating groups, peopledon't always know what to expect or
like, like what to do with themselves.
So the balance between choices, options,like, like, you know, allowing for
possibilities, allowing for free play.
And then on the other hand, Um,creating structures and making it feel

(39:42):
very safe for people, especially whenpeople believe they aren't musicians
or believe they can't sing or, or,you know, have, have beliefs about,
about themselves and their abilities.
So when I talk about that though, whatdoes that bring up for you thinking about
your own journey at both, both in yourown experience as an artist and people
facilitating your creativity, but also asyou became a teaching artist and as you

(40:05):
started to do more facilitation yourself.
Yeah.
Different people relate to that in suchdifferent ways, I guess, and that comes
down to what we were talking about,the what of improvisation like that
attunement to the, the moment that there'snot necessarily going to be here's the
method or here's the trick or here'swhat we do when we're facilitating.
It's like who's who are the peoplein the room now and what are their
needs and their fears and what wouldmake them feel comfortable, right.

(40:27):
As we're designing these learningactivities, what's going to work for you.
This group would be silly for thisgroup or what really works for this
group would be really abstract andconfusing for this, for this other group.
So finding even within a similar setof values or practices, being able
to read the room is such an importantpart important part of this, this work.

(40:50):
Well, I guess, yeah, my journey is beinga teaching teaching artist and really
starting to focus on this realm ofmusical improvisation, I guess, started.
So I went, uh, when I finished mytime at New England Conservatory in
Boston, I moved back, moved back toSeattle area and, you know, I didn't

(41:11):
have huge aspirations other than like,Hey, I want to freelance, I want to
play gigs and work on projects andteach lessons and not have a day job.
Like I did not want to put on a tie,you know, meet music or otherwise I
was really invested in music education,but not being a full-time public school
band director or something like that.
And I've got the most respectfor people that do that, but that

(41:32):
wasn't my, that wasn't my path.
And just a freelance, same playing,playing gigs and paying the bills, you
know, teaching some lessons and someschools would bring me in and say, oh,
you, you know, your jazz musician come andteach my jazz band, teach everyone how to
solo and we'd go in there and there's like20 kids and we have to teach them how to
like take turns one at a time as they're,you know, one terrified kid to the next.

(41:54):
And it just didn't seem like it was, it'sa very challenging setup to come teach
everyone how to play an improvised solo.
And even if we had the time tojust pass the microphone around
most when we're doing that, alot of people weren't engaged.
And, uh, I guess one of these lightbulb moments for me, it was, um, a.

(42:16):
It was a summer.
It was like a summer summer music camp.
And I had just fit.
I was just fresh out of schooland enthusiastic to teach and they
wanted me to teach a beginningjazz improvisation class.
I'm like, all right, wecan get these kids, go on.
Some of them can learn.
We can learn some tunes and learnabout some theory and chords and
play a blues and do this and that.

(42:37):
And I had this whole thing allplanned out and we came in the class.
There was maybe 20 or about20 kids, all different levels.
Like from, I dunno, they just, not alldifferent levels, but for instrumental
players, you know, they start atmaybe age nine or 10, 10 year olds
up through some, some high schoolers.
And there's some, some kids in there.
Really play their instruments.

(42:57):
Well, and this one, one kid and Ishowed up, let's give her the trumpet.
One of the younger kids,her name was name was Kenny.
And I was like, okay.
Yeah, Kenny, what, you know,what instrument do you play?
I don't play an instrument.
My parents just rented me this trumpetand he held it up like, like, what am I?
You know?
So then I'm like crashing.
I'm like, okay, well, I'm notgoing to teach them seventh
chords, you know, Kenny over here.
. And it's like, what, what am Igoing to, what am I going to do?

(43:19):
And just on the fly I came up with,I drew from, this was something from
my experience at music school wheremy directors, Alan Chase would have
us do some pretty listing intensive.
it's a loaded word, but freeimprovisations, but more open-ended
some somewhat textural pieces.
And he had certain.

(43:40):
Prompts for us, like some limitations,one was called fireflies and we
would just play pointillisticlike short textures of notes.
There's one called forest where youwould play a short phrase or motif,
leave lots of space and repeatedexactly the same and listen to the
interaction of all these sounds.
And we would use them to buildcomplete pieces or to take our
original compositions and usethem as transitional material.

(44:01):
And I was like, okay,kids were playing Firefly.
So we're doing that.
Okay.
Now we're going to play vines.
Now we're going to doexplosion and dance party.
We just made up all of thesekinds of sound texture things.
And they were just, and they were lovingit, like just seeing them all lit up.
And, um, even kids like, you know,I can't, he couldn't, you know,
traditionally he just, he just gothis trumpet, so he didn't could

(44:21):
barely make the characteristicsound, but he was just all on board.
Oh, he could make short sounds.
He could make long sounds.
He could make extended techniques.
And then some of the more advanced.
And then I, before I knew anythingabout sound painting, but we were
doing some hand signals for these.
Okay.
You're going to play fireflies.
And now this.
Kid who's maybe more experienced.
Okay.
You can play a solo ontop of this whole thing.

(44:43):
And it was three, we metevery day for three weeks.
And by the end, the kids were suggesting,you know, these other sound textures.
And, uh, and at theend we had the concert.
So it was the summer summer music program.
And it was just the, you know, the,the band and the orchestra and the jazz
band and the choir, everyone saying,but this group wanted to perform
and then beginning improv class.
And then we went upthere with a whiteboard.

(45:03):
So we did some like graphic scoreson the fly and doing all these
games and stuff, and they wereall just totally lit up about it.
Um, and then I guess to that, thatmade a, it made an impression on me
and then some people would ask meto, oh, you had a follow up question.
Just to jump in that, that, uh, part ofwhat you're describing, which I didn't

(45:26):
mention, like I mentioned, creatingoptions, create creative choices, kind
of like these into either which wecan think of, like, you know, like a
buffet of ideas, so to speak, um, uh,which I borrowed from J D Derbyshire.
Um, or we can think of, youknow, like, like kind of that
can be activities, right?
So like that could be an individualcreative moment or it could be like,

(45:47):
the activity is kind of creating that.
But then what you were describing isthat it becomes this larger creative
process that we have individual choices.
We have kind of like, um, activitiesor ideas, or like kind of like realms
that containers that those exist in.
But then it becomes thislarger creative process.
That is just what you described.

(46:10):
Like it has, it has a differentkind of shape and magic to it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and it was that moment too.
I was realizing.
Well, I want to set this up in adifferent way that we're not just
gonna teach everyone to solo,that sets off fight or flight.
And when I build, so when I, when I doeven traditional jazz combo workshops,
we'll do this stuff and it gets people,this environment of we're experimenting,

(46:31):
we're being expressive and spontaneous.
And after you've played guests to animaland done these chicken sounds in front
of your friends, like trying some othergame or something that might be, then
we can pivot to something that's more.
If we're doing like jazz language or,you know, we'd do call and response
and then suddenly it can go intothese other areas, but the environment
is set up in a, in a different way.
Um, but yours, I guess, to wrapthis up with the chicken soup for

(46:52):
the soul of music, us all, likeI was like years later, I was in,
in graduate school in Seattle.
I took like 10 yearsoff after my undergrad.
And I was a TA for the jazz.
And I have a master's degree injazz studies and improvised music.
So, uh, as a TA and onequarter, I was like playing in
the big band and I was there.
I was, Hey Steve . And I looked around andit was Kenny, like the kid from the class.

(47:15):
And he was playing leadtrumpet in the jazz band.
And I was like, you learned how to play?
And he's like, wouldyou still do explosion?
I'm like, no, I don't do explosion, butI remember it like, but I, you know,
this other one, you came up called river.
We do that.
Yeah.
And we still been in touch and.
Yeah, band director at a privateschool now I'm doing the thing.

(47:35):
So it was like, okay.
Yeah.
And even if Kenny hadn't learned, youknow, even if he never really learned how
to play the trumpet, it was still fun.
But yeah, he was there in that lastconcert, when we're doing all the the
silly games, he was there and he figuredout enough of the horn to play whatever
he had to do in the, in the concert band.
Um, but that really, and then some ofthese band teachers would, you know,
they heard, they'd heard it hear aboutthese, like, oh, can you do those,

(47:57):
whatever weird improv things you dowith my band or my orchestra or choir.
And I would do those.
Um, and like, oh, these are kind offun, but I guess professionally too,
I was, you know, going from the, youknow, I was wanting to, I guess kind of
hitting a roadblock with the freelancelifestyle, just going gig to gig.
And I'm like, okay, I needsomething more, more stable.

(48:18):
And that's when I, you know, madethe decision to go to grad school.
I'm like, well, maybe I need a,you know, a steadier job, get a
college position or something.
And, you know, I was, I'm like settlingdown and, you know, Starting a family.
And, you know, I just, the gig togig thing, it's like looking, looking
at that as, not that I necessarilythought that'd be a perfect position,
but more for like the, the securityand you know, just a regular gig.

(48:41):
So yeah, I went to graduate schooland, um, I was, uh, even when I was
still in school, I hadn't finishedmy degree, but I was a finalist for
a jazz studies position in a townnearby, which is a beautiful area.
It'd be like close enough to the citythat I could still come back for gigs.
It'd be like the perfect situation.
If I was going to be, you know, at aninstitution as a finalist and had you

(49:01):
know, very awkward, uh, I'd never like,it was a Skype, this was pre pandemic,
but Skype interview where they hadto ask everyone the same questions.
Exactly.
And no back and forth.
It was very awkward, but I was like afinalist and didn't get the position.
And it was, you know, hit me pretty hard.
I was like, oh, this, this one wouldhave been perfect in any of these other
positions that are open are in places Ireally wouldn't want to relocate to, or

(49:23):
even temporarily it just wouldn't work.
Um, that's kind of whenI was introduced to the.
World of micro entrepreneurship.
I stepped in marketing and kind of underwhich I was never that interested in like
the business side of things or figuringout how to sell out or make money.
I was just not, you know, I justwanted to play music and teach music.
Um, but someone had introduced me to yeah.

(49:49):
To some of this new, I guess yes, small,small business principles and realizing
that being it's an asset to do something.
That's something that's unique.
Not that you're trying to get yourresume to, you know, compete, you
put your resume in a pile of 200other ones, you know, To, uh, to
stand out and offer something unique.
It can be the cornerstone ofbuilding a building a business.

(50:10):
And I was in this workbook, itwas from a, it's like a business
development workbook that had abunch of like, it's like a journal.
And one of the questions was what isa problem you solve in a unique way?
And I was like, oh, I do thoseweird like improvisation game.
Like people are and peoplelike it, but I'm like, well,
that's, there's no job for that.
Like, I can't do that.
And, but then I was realized I wasbuilding this, all of these questions.

(50:31):
I'm like, wait, maybe this is the thing.
If I build a structure around thismore unique experience, it allows
us to have our niche, you know, moredeeply resonate with a small group
of people and potentially, I mean, inthe, the business side, you can charge
a premium when it's the only option.
If people want this thing and it's, youcan't just find someone, but if it's
anything you offer, that's really unique.

(50:53):
You can't just findthe Walmart equivalent.
Like what's the cheaper version of this.
It's the only, the onlykind of experience.
So that's when I really started workingmore on the workshop experience.
So.
That I would go, yeah.
To some of these music programs thatcould serve more people and work with an
entire music program or entire ensemblesand perform and starting to do more guest
artists, things and working on doingmore speaking and, and things like that.

(51:19):
Like trying to be tryingto be a leader in some way.
And this w this way of teachingimprovisation in a way that was different
than the, certainly the status quo injazz education and started with his game
symphony workshop, which I've talkedabout before using theater games and some
of these things that we're talking aboutand making that a central part of what
I'm doing as part of my mission, but alsothe like strategically in business-wise.

(51:39):
It actually makes sense to dosomething that seems not, not standard.
Hm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think also as we see how well itworks and has we're impacted by seeing
like, by, by all these examples right.
Of, of different types of people beingpositively impacted in different places,
in different contexts, it also becomeslike, you know, what matters, you know,

(52:04):
and that, that you want to, um, want toelevate that and, and kind of come into
that and be able to, as you said, toserve more people and to, to, uh, to,
to impact people both more deeply, butalso in a, in a broader way, and kind
of amplify that and amplify that out.
And as you were talking about, uh,using like, you know, uh, animal games

(52:28):
with professional musicians and thingslike that, it, uh, part of, for me,
what working across the lifespan, soto speak has been, uh, I worked for
an early childhood music educationcompany, teaching tons and tons of
babies and toddlers and preschoolers.
Uh, so I'd like, I kind of cameinto it with that, but I also was

(52:50):
part of some research projects at itthat were affiliated with this lab.
That was one of the, the titles they usedwas neuroeducation across the lifespan.
So like education using thebrain across the lifespan.
And I was involved with some projects,both for young kids, uh, and for seniors.
Um, and since then, I've, um,lots more with, with, with kind

(53:15):
of all the age groups, right?
The parents and little ones and, andseniors and adults, but also, um,
people with dementia, uh, and justlots of different types of people.
And I've found that the sameactivities often work really well
in really different situations.
And, and once you're kind of.
Music and experiencein this broader sense.

(53:37):
It's not like, oh, this isthe stuff I do with babies.
I mean, obviously there's somedevelopmental things that like, there's
certain things that work particularlywell, but oddly, some of the stuff that
works really well at the beginning of thelifespan, I can keep, you know, we can
keep using it other ways and that it'snot, you know, like to me there isn't
like children's songs and adult songs.

(54:00):
Obviously there are some songsthat are, we use a lot in childhood
and there are some songs that aremaybe not appropriate for children.
But then in between we have allkinds of songs that are just songs
in our culture that we can use.
And so it, uh, the more I did it, themore I found all this transfer and, and.
Like just, just interestingways that it wasn't in silos.
It was, it was kind of blended togetherin these beautiful ways where you,

(54:22):
you see how you can use some of thesame principles or sometimes the exact
same activity in different contexts.
And people will get so much out of it.
And the idea of something being like toojuvenile is something that I try not to
assume that something is too simple ortoo juvenile, because even very simple
activities can become really amazinggateways to deeper awareness or to,

(54:46):
to accessing other parts of ourselves.
Um, and it, it alldepends on how we do it.
Yeah.
Oh, absolutely.
Preaching to the choir here.
Cause cause so much.
And I use that a lot deliberately usingnovelty and things that are kind of
silly, just it's disarming in a way.
And it's really that, thatgateway, um, to some degree.
Um, there's some deeper concepts andI've found yet some of these things that

(55:07):
I was doing with, you know, Kenny whodidn't know how to play his trumpet,
it's just as useful when I'm working withlike university music majors, I'll do
the same, a lot of the same activities.
And as you know, I have to changethe dynamics a bit, you know,
with, with some of the adults,we can like stop and reflect and
talk more with the younger kids.
We need to be playing as much as possible.
Like I can't cut them off withoutknowing what I'm going to say.
Next it's like way faster pacedand even a little bit more, a

(55:30):
little bit goofy or with the, withthe groups of kids, a little more
therapy involved sometimes with theadults and working through all that.
Yeah.
Like when I first sent you my,my ebook, when you ask, oh,
what ages do you use this for?
And I was like, oh, this is interesting.
Cause it's a lot of the same, I mean,same concepts, but I mean, this is
written for, you know, maybe, uh,who knows how high school or adult

(55:51):
learners, but I just adapt the same.
It's not a book I would giveto a kid, but I use some of the
same, the same concepts for sure.
Um, and then I wantedto ask you to on your.
Um, journey of doing this professionally,because I think you had mentioned, you
had, you know, haven't had, you know,like maybe have a similar unemployable
streak or you haven't, you know, largelybeing independent, you know, working for
some, some contracts, but how all thiswork you've done , how that's grown for

(56:16):
you professionally, you know, withouthaving a full time position for extended
periods of time, not the J O B word,
yeah, well, I mean, I have had jobs,but, um, some of those jobs, like, uh, we
we've talked a lot about alignment, right.
From pretty early on.
I was trying to find things Icould do that were in alignment

(56:38):
with other things I wanted to do.
Right.
So I was, you know, as a teenager,I was like, you know, performing
as a singer songwriter, but Iwas also putting on concerts.
Right.
Because I wanted places to play.
So that kind ofentrepreneurial aspect or that.
Some people would call it, do it yourself,but it's not just do it yourself.
It's in collaboration.

(56:59):
Right.
That started really early.
Uh, and then, I mean, I feel very luckyto be honest because I feel that, I
mean, lucky, but it's also having,having a focus and, and I don't mean
strategy as in like a specific actionplan, but a strategy as in like you
identify values and, and activitiesthat that are again in alignment.

(57:21):
So, um, I mentioned, uh, that I,that I took that program at the
Royal conservatory and I've done,I've done other work, uh, and
learning at the Royal conservatory.
And through that, I ended up workingwith learning through the arts, which
is a program that has artists, educatorsdoing school visits, classroom visits,
teacher, professional development.
So through that, I met a lot ofdifferent kinds of artists and educators.

(57:46):
A lot of like, I got to seea lot of artists, educators
work in really different ways.
That was enormously helpful to me.
Cause I had, when wetalked about models, right.
I had a lot of modeling and then makingmy album, I saw other musicians on, on,
uh, like who are professionals who aretouring, who in some cases were, uh,

(58:10):
either had played with like a, you know,long ago had played with some really
big names or were like just coming offof tours with pretty big names in it.
Like that's really inspiring.
So I knew it was possible because I sawit around me and I saw these models of
different ways to go about it, right?
Like the, the, the touring musician orgigging, or, or these different models.

(58:33):
And then I worked with rainbowsongs during early childhood music.
Uh, so that was, you know, I'mmusic jobs, so to speak, I've
taught piano and taught voice and.
It's it's that juggling ofthe, of the gig economy.
So I've done a lot of that where I'm,where I'm doing different kinds of things.

(58:54):
Um, and then over time, I, that leadsto certain opportunities or that,
that leads to being able to build,uh, in, in different directions.
And so sometimes it's been aboutleaving into opportunities and
collaborations and, and seeing whathappens and learning from that.
And sometimes it's been about creatingthings slowly and strategically, uh,

(59:18):
for, for other reasons, like I do grouponline piano lessons, and that was a very
specific choice based on my experiencesand seeing how well it works for kids
to learn in small groups together andto be inspired by each other and, uh, to
integrate creativity in lessons, whichI was doing one-on-one with students,
but it's just all the better together.

(59:38):
So sometimes it's been aboutdesigning something and
sometimes it's been a barrier.
Like learning things fromopportunities that I didn't
necessarily think I would be exploring.
I've done music for churches, sacred musicand musical direction for, for musical
theater and for, uh, um, and for churcheswhere it's not nearly as much about

(01:00:01):
improv and about the creativity aspects.
And it's much more aboutthe performance aspects.
Uh, but that being said, we'vetalked before about how through
that that's actually led to learningmore about improv unexpectedly.
Yeah, exactly.
Same, the same page with being ableto, you know, designing things and
strategizing, but then when the rightopportunity pops up, like, I don't

(01:00:21):
know, suddenly starting a podcastyou weren't expecting to, you know,
when those, those things pop up.
I actually, because I had a questionwith that Royal conservatory program.
So for that, so there's amultidisciplinary program.
Did you have.
Did you have to apply, like in a slot,like I'm applying as a musician or as a
poet, or was it more mean, what was iteven a music program or an arts program?
Or how did that kind of, yeah.

(01:00:43):
What kind of program wasthat at the university?
So I had to make an applicationthat showed that I had a
professional arts practice.
Um, and so submitting my album.
I don't know if I was even done myalbum when I applied, I must have
been so, so, so, so submitting thatas part of like my portfolio for it.

(01:01:07):
And other aspects of that, that I'dapplied for stuff as a musician, right?
Like I'd applied for mentorship programsas a young musician and, um, and had some
really awesome experiences through likeemerging artists, mentorship programs.
But this was the first timethat I applied to something as.

(01:01:27):
I now have a professional practice,you know, not I'm an emerging
musician or emerging artists as likehere's my professional practice,
which like we talked beforeabout, when are you an athlete?
It's like, when are you aprofessional practicing artists?
Uh, so it wasn't, uh, there wasn'tlike a slot specifically for musicians,
but it was professional development.

(01:01:49):
But although you were pretty, prettymuch just starting out at the same time.
So, yeah.
And, and that's the thing, right?
Like, I did have a professional practice.
I was performing, I did havea portfolio, but it didn't
really feel like it at the time.
It didn't, it didn't feel like I had areally solid history, but in a sense,
I did, I'd been performing for years.
Right.
So, uh, that idea of like, when are weready when when's the time I'm not, you

(01:02:14):
know, I don't even play an instrument.
You know, I just, I justhave this instrument.
Yeah.
When are you, when areyou, when are you ready?
Taking ownership of that?
Like responsibility for that.
Right.
So that that's like here, I'mmaking this application and then
I get in and I'm part of it.
It's like, wow, okay.

(01:02:34):
Now I'm in this situation and wherepeople and essentially an institution
are like believing in me and kindof counting on me to show up the
way they're showing up for me.
And it's like, I can't flinch awayfrom this because like I applied
it and I was very clear about who Iam and what I was doing, you know?
And it, it creates a different kind of,I think, responsibility to our own, to

(01:02:56):
our own creativity, aside from that beinglike a personal and artistic practice,
but like a perfect creating a professionalthread that is important to us to, to
keep following through our careers.
Wow.
Yeah.
And back to stuff, like you saidearlier, like talking about these models,
look at these musicians and peoplethat were on tour or doing, you know,

(01:03:18):
different ways of being a professional.
I mean, just having a quick story, right.
Coming up, you know, I was reallyinto music, but I never really
considered pursuing it professionally,you know, because just about every
well-meaning adult in my life islike, well, you know, if you're a
musician you'll die, poor and lonely.
So you want to get a real joband play music on the weekends
or something like that, you know?
And then looking atwhat's what's best for me.
And I was like, okay, well, that'sjust kind of took that as a, as a

(01:03:40):
given, you know, until I saw likemy, my own saxophone teacher, who
was, it was doing well freelancing.
And, you know, I took a lessonwith a trumpet players, maybe 10
years older than me, still a goodfriend of mine to this day, Jim
Sisko and, uh, these a great player.
And I saw like this guys, he'splaying gigs, he's teaches lessons.
He's got a decent place to live.
He has a girlfriend, he plays golf on theweekends and he seems like he a pretty

(01:04:03):
like Cappy guy and he's not famous,you know, he's a professional musician.
And like, I was like, but same thing.
I saw these people.
I'm like, well, if they can do it, youknow, it's same thing as like seeing Sam,
like I saw a model it's like, well, thesepeople are making freelancing happen.
Uh, yeah, a certain citywhere this is possible.
And it's just another one of those things.

(01:04:24):
You see someone, you see someonedoing it, you see someone on
the road or you see, um, yeah.
He's he see the model and thenyou're like, oh, it's, it's possible.
And it's just a shift from, that'simpossible to like, oh, it's an
option if I want to go for it.
And once you make that,make that, make that shift.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's interesting you say that.
So I was like deeply interested inscience and environmental studies.

(01:04:48):
And I remember talking about consideringgoing into the arts instead of sciences
and a teacher who, who had been a, youknow, a science teacher of mine kind of.
Yeah, right.
Like that would be kind of likea waste of your potential was
the tone and the certain of theimplication of what he said.
And then the summer between grade11 and grade 12, I took part in a

(01:05:08):
differentiator production, which was amusical about the wife of Tom Thomson.
Uh, and it was, there was like adevelopment portion where, where
young people were doing theater andmusic stuff and learning and kind
of workshopping all kinds of stuff.
And then there was the actual mountingof this professional production with

(01:05:29):
like professional cast and crew.
And then also these young peoplewho participate in this development
process and within the managing ofthe production, there was lots of
improv and lots of, um, like haveinteresting ways of, of, of creating,
like developing that creative process.
And so through that experience, Iwas like, well, this feels awesome.

(01:05:50):
And studying does not feel this awesome.
And it's not that I.
Like I knew, right.
That like, it was an option tokind of do the more academic side.
And I knew that the artsweren't going to be easy.
Right.
But I was like, wow, thislike talking about ensembles.
And I ended up changing the coursesI'd selected for grade 12 to be

(01:06:14):
arts courses and, uh, applying touniversity for theater, which I did.
I ended up not doing because I was makingthe album instead, but I ended up totally
changing trajectory and being like, okay,I'm doubling down on arts and creativity
because my lived experience of it isso powerful and my lived experience
of science, as much as I'm stilldeeply influenced by like by science.

(01:06:38):
And I've worked with cognitiveneuroscientists in a context with
music research, which is really cool.
Like it's definitely warming
another episode
it's moving into to what I've done,but my lived experience of science.
It wasn't terrible.
I look like I'm curious, I hadall this passion for it, but it
was a different kind of thing.

(01:07:00):
And before that I believed if I, soI like, I, I did music and I knew
the like struggle of music and thestruggle of music alone, or the
struggle with music where you don'tfeel like you're getting anywhere.
And I knew kind of that like discouragingaspect or like the tough part of it.
Right.
Um, and I thought that if I went toschool for music, or if I pursued

(01:07:20):
music professionally, or if I kindof elevated its importance too much
in my life that it would ruin it.
And I said that to people.
I said, oh, if I, I wouldn't, Iwouldn't want to do it for a career.
Cause I would just ruinit for me, you know?
But then as I had, you know, evenmore powerful ensemble experiences
and even more powerful experiencesmyself, but especially with the

(01:07:43):
collaboration to balance out thiskind of like solo, creative journey,
that is a little more tumultuous.
And I got that.
I got a bit more of that balance.
And also as I worked more duringdifferent types of, of work, I realized,
oh, actually, if what I do for work issomething that I'm passionate about.
I'm going to be doing it a lot.

(01:08:03):
So that's probably a good thing.
That's probably not going to ruin it.
That's probably going to beenriching for my life as a whole.
So let's pick, I'm going tospend a lot of time working.
So let's really like, let'sget into it, you know?
Yeah.
Not that it can't ruin it, butyou know, it's, uh, that's fine.
Yeah.
So you have the ignition source.
I mean, that's you, that you felt youhad that ignition source for the artistic
side rather than the science side.

(01:08:26):
That is, yeah.
And I run into young players too, like,oh, what do you think about for college?
Like, oh, I'm going togo into engineering.
Oh, okay.
Are you into, into, you know, and thenwe talk more and I was like, well, and
maybe, you know, maybe minor in music.
And as we talk, they're like,it turns out they're super
passionate about music, but oh.
But the engineering is thesafe thing, safe things to do.
And, and maybe that's a great ideawho knows, but the other stuff, yeah.
It's still helping other youngpeople navigate that when.

(01:08:48):
You know, I'm not, not pushing, not superpushy to say, Hey, this is what you need
to, you know, one of my most talentedstudents who could've, you know, gotten
a scholarship to go to music school endedup like loving atmospheric science and
he's, uh, you know, so he's he found.
It has on weather blog and yeah.
Cause it's got a good gig doing that.
I was like, wow, this is cool.
You know, it was like litup for that, but it's yeah.

(01:09:09):
It's it's yeah.
Interesting to
and no shade to science.
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
Actually that was one of the things Iwanted to bring up is that science, in
terms of like art speech research researchabout the effectiveness of the arts,
um, my business is called best practicearts partially because it's like, yeah,
best practice personally, because it'slike, ah, like being creative is the best

(01:09:33):
practice, but it's also because I havelike a, uh, part of my background has been
like looking at like, what does researchsay and what does kind of theory say?
And then how can we turn that intoprograms or curriculums or, or, um,
workshops, or like, how can we interweave that in our practice so that we're
using this knowledge to enrich what we do.
And I'm still passionate about that.

(01:09:54):
But part of what I'vefound over time is that.
Like yes, let's, let'suse the heads absolutely.
In that's helped inform what I do.
And I think that's supports morecreativity and more improvisation.
And I think also the extent to whichthe, sorry, the reason I want to use
those best practices is so I can helppeople better and I can help people

(01:10:16):
help themselves better and that I canincrease effectiveness, increase, impact.
However, I think that the power ofimprov and of creativity and of music
and arts in general is beyond whatwe've measured, you know, and that we
can't always, uh, it's so multifacetedthat we aren't always going to have
studies and best practices that takeinto account the numerous benefits,

(01:10:40):
the extent to which there are benefits.
Like I can't rely on scientific studiesto be my only compass in this kind
of work because of the impact is somuch deeper and greater than that.
And I was, I was talking about kind of.
Like spiraling models of personal changeand then also like interpersonal or
relational or collective experiences, butthen larger cultural or social change.

(01:11:05):
And again, no shade to science.
Absolutely.
Let's bring that in, but I want towork deeper and faster than that
than the science may have caught up.
So I think for me, it'sbeen a balance of both.
Wow.
Maybe, maybe that's a perfectway to leave this conversation.
Yeah.
That that's, that's awesome.

(01:11:25):
Yeah.
And wow, it turns out, I thinkwe have more to talk about, so
there will be another season.
Um, that's amazing.
Yeah.
Any, anything else about the,the who that we, I mean, plenty
more to unpack and uncover, but.
Anything else that you were dying tosay for this episode and we didn't.

(01:11:47):
Yeah, we didn't get to,
I am very glad to havelearned more about who you are
Likewise . Awesome.
Well, thank you so much.
Yeah, we've got one more in our pilot, ourpilot season, and yeah, looking forward
to connecting, connecting with you folks.

(01:12:08):
So be sure to subscribe on yourfavorite platform of choice and,
uh, you can connect with us atinfiniteimprovisation.com and sign
up for the newsletter and find ouronline community till next time.