S3 E5 - Snow Days with Bob Lindmeier

Today we are talking about a topic that is very timely as we start seeing colder temperatures: Snow Days! We'll hear from local Oregon resident and senior chief meteorologist at WKOW - Bob Lindmeier, and one of our own OSD parents to discuss common questions about snow days.

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER1: Today on Inside the OSD, we're talking about a topic that is very timely as we start seeing colder temperatures--snow days. (00:00):
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This is a hot topic -- or should I say a cold topic?
-- for all school districts in Wisconsin during winter months.
Today we are talking with a local Oregon resident and Senior ChiefMeteorologist at WKOW, Bob Lindmeier, and one of our own OSD

(00:25):
parents to discuss common questions about snow days.

SPEAKER2: Welcome to this episode of Inside the OSD podcast where it's all about the kids. (00:30):
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Here is your host, lifelong educator, and our superintendent, Doctor LeslieBergstrom.

SPEAKER1: Good morning, Bob, and welcome to Inside the OSD. (00:45):
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One thing we look at when considering a snow day is the weather forecast, andwe're excited to talk to you to shed some light about forecasting when it comes
to making these tricky calls.
Could you start by telling our listeners a little bit about yourself and howyou came to be a meteorologist?

SPEAKER3: So yes, my name is Bob Lindmeier. (01:07):
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I'm what you call the senior chief meteorologist at WKOW-TV in Madison.
It's the ABC affiliate.
Been doing this for a long time.
I'm finishing up my 44th year with the station, so I've been pretty lucky tohave my whole career in one location.
Incredible. Yeah, and very fortunate for me.

(01:29):
So I--how I got into the business?
When I went to college, I didn't know what I wanted to do, really, but I tooksome 100 level courses and one of them happened to be a meteorology course.
Okay. And from that, I really--it really spurred my interest.
And I decided that's the direction I want to go with my career.

(01:50):
Uh, but I grew up in Minnesota, and no college in Minnesota offered the degree.
So I looked around and there was the University of Wisconsin and, uh, thereciprocity agreement between the two.

SPEAKER1: That's a beautiful thing. (02:02):
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SPEAKER3: It is, so kind of made it a no brainer to come here. (02:03):
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So I came here and finished my last two years in the major at the University ofWisconsin and received a bachelor's of science degree in
meteorology back in--way back in 1979.
So once I had the degree, then it was, "what am I going to do with it?" You cango many directions as a meteorologist that actually a small percentage go into

(02:28):
TV weather, but um.
Huh. I-- was kind of happenstance.
I was looking for a job, and there happened to be a job posting up in Wausau,and I had a young family at the time.
It was like, "I need to find a job." So I went up there with no experience.
I had not planned to do TV, but um, yeah, stayed there for about a half a year.

(02:52):
Then I made my move down here to Madison and started January 1st of 1980, andmy career has been through, uh, through
there. Um, became the chief meteorologist in 1989, uh, which is the position Ipretty much held ever since.

SPEAKER1: Isn't it pretty unusual for someone who's doing TV meteorology to be in the same place that long? (03:09):
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SPEAKER3: It is, uh, most--incredible! (03:16):
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Yeah. I was very fortunate because there was a side company called WeatherCentral, and Weather Central actually provided the TV meteorologist
to WKOW TV.
It was a private forecast company that had served a lot of weather sensitiveclients in many industries.

(03:37):
So I had my position in Weather Central.
I was in their management and eventually in their ownership.
Okay. And that allowed me to generate the income that you normally wouldn't inthis market size.
So that allowed me to stay here.
And it worked out great.
Um, and, uh, yeah, it's I feel very fortunate.

(03:59):
It's been a fun career.
It's, you know, it's all about, I think, finding a job that you really enjoythat, that you like to go to every morning.
And I was in that situation.
It's challenging but also a fun.

SPEAKER1: So what makes it fun? (04:14):
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What do you like best about it?
And then what is the most challenging thing?
Yeah.

SPEAKER3: You know, um, the the fun part for me is actually doing the, the TV presentation. (04:19):
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I just enjoy it.
When I first started, I was petrified.
Um, "boy, there's thousands of people watching me," and I'm.
And I didn't know what I was doing, really.
And you're kind of pointing

SPEAKER1: at a screen that you can't see, right? (04:38):
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Oh, that is. That would scare me, too.
There's a green

SPEAKER3: wall out there, so you have to deal with that. (04:43):
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Nothing really behind you.
You have to figure that out.
Yeah. One of the challenges was to figure out how to talk to people in a waythat was understandable, because I was used to talking to other meteorologists.
If I say, well, you know, "we got a positive vorticity advection coming ingenerating snow tomorrow." You know, people don't understand that.

SPEAKER1: So they tune out. (05:07):
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SPEAKER3: Exactly. So that was a challenge was to figure out how to talk to people in--in a way that they understand. (05:09):
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You want to do it understandably.
Um, you want to be entertaining to a certain degree.
Um, so there's--it was challenging in that way.
But over time, I gradually figured it out.

(05:29):
I tell people, "if I can do it, almost anybody can" because it was a rough -- It was rough for me when I started, but I figured it out with time and, uh,
yeah. So I, I enjoy the, the TV part of things.
Um, and actually giving that presentation on air, the, one of the challengingthings is actually just the forecast.

(05:52):
Um, because it's not an easy thing to do.
We use different computer models.
Um, that help us.
We have five that we routinely look at every day and try to figure out whichone's doing the best job because they have their strengths and weaknesses.
And so figuring that out is is a challenge as well.

(06:14):
But it's a challenge.
But it also, to me, fun.
Okay. I would say the one downside for my career has been the fact that I workevenings and I have to do.
Yeah. Yeah. For many years, I was doing a 6 and 10 p.m.
newscast, which means with my--with my family, my young family, as they weregrowing up, I didn't see them as much as I hoped.

(06:37):
I did make the effort to come home every evening, um, when possible, to havehave dinner.
In

SPEAKER1: between the shows? (06:44):
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Between

SPEAKER3: the 6 and 10:00. (06:46):
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So. But, um, so I had some time, but it wasn't, you know, I missed out on someof those evening activities.
Of course, you know that, uh, that you really want to beat.
So that was the one downside.
Aside from that, it's been a lot of positives.

SPEAKER1: It sounds like you loved it. (07:02):
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SPEAKER3: I did, I really enjoyed it. (07:04):
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SPEAKER1: So last month, WKOW did a story that indicated we could be in for a La Nina winter. (07:05):
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SPEAKER3: Yes. (07:11):
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SPEAKER1: What is the significance of this and what might it mean for this year's winter weather? (07:12):
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SPEAKER3: Yeah, we have these fundamental things that happen in our weather that really have impacts. (07:17):
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And one is El Nino or La Nina.
Um, El Nino, which is Spanish for "the child." Um, because it usually wasobserved near Christmas down in South

(07:39):
America.

SPEAKER1: But that's where it came from. (07:40):
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Yeah.

SPEAKER3: Yeah. (07:42):
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SPEAKER1: Interesting. (07:42):
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SPEAKER3: So but it was this development in the in the oceans. (07:43):
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The oceans really play a huge part in our weather.
And if there's something that unusual that happens in the oceans that affectsworldwide weather patterns.
So El Nino, which is-- it's a warming of the equatorial Pacific Ocean water.

(08:07):
Okay. Okay.
It goes warmer than normal.
And when you get this burst of warmth in this huge area of the equatorialPacific, that changes weather patterns fundamentally, not only
here, but through much of the country.
Okay. We had an El Nino last year, and you might recall, it was a warm winter.

(08:29):
It was a it was a pretty dry winter.
And that's the thing that an El Nino does.
It produces above normal temperatures and usually below normal precipitation.
Okay. On the other side, there's La Nina.
And that's when the oceans go the other direction and go from warmer thannormal to near normal, which is kind of where we're at right now.

(08:51):
Then below normal, those surface ocean waters go colder than average.
And that has its own kind of disruption, but in a different way.
And for us, it usually means that we're going to have an equal chance of aboveor below normal temperatures.
There's really not a trend one way or another.

SPEAKER1: So it's a coin toss, what it's going to do to us. (09:13):
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SPEAKER3: Yeah. The the upper air wind patterns can go either way in terms of producing a warm or cold. (09:15):
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Normally precipitation is above average, though, and in a lean-- La Ninawinter.
But overriding all that is still climate change and the impact that it'shaving.
And it's having a significant impact, especially in our winters.

(09:37):
So that's where we're really feeling the effects of climate change here inWisconsin.
Our winters are much warmer.
Um, and that's really being observed.
So that is also going to be playing into the winter.
But so to answer the question, what kind of winter are we going to have?
Well, Temperatures.

(09:58):
We don't really see it very much.
But again, this is we're talking about a three month time span -- or moresometimes depending.
And you think about it okay.
Say we have near normal temperatures through that three month time span.
But that could include sharp cold waves, warm waves.

(10:19):
It all averages out to near normal.
Right. But you can still have significant weather events that happen.
We can have you might recall last winter it was an above normal winter.
But we had that extreme cold outbreak.
Yes, that lasted for a week.
But so that that stuff's going to happen, we're still going to have our winterstorms.

(10:39):
Um, we'll likely have some school closures.
It's, you know, we have them pretty much every winter.
Uh, but how many?
And, um, you know that that's impossible to say at this point.

SPEAKER1: Well, you are leading into the next question because as a school district, we know that calling a snow day is a really big decision. (10:50):
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It is. It really, um, disrupts family schedules, people's work schedules in asignificant way, and it's really hard to predict
this, as you said.
Even though we try to call it as far in advance as we can, the weather patternsmake it difficult to do.

(11:14):
So we often have to make decisions in the very early hours of the morning.
So can you talk to our listeners a little bit about the process of predictingthese weather patterns, and why it is so challenging to predict snowfall?

SPEAKER3: Oh it is. Um, the way we forecast just forecast in general. (11:27):
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But as I touched on before, we use computer models, these model runs come out,um, fundamentally twice a day.
Uh, but other models are what we call rapid refresh.
They come out more frequently, but so it--we--when we have that forecast in theearly morning trying to figure out, "well,

(11:53):
what are the school districts going to do?" We want to get that latest computermodel information in there to to help us out and issue.
But like the National Weather Service, which you depend upon.
And by the way, the National Weather Service is great.
I think they're experts and I really think highly of them.

(12:15):
Um, but and they're 24/7 there.
So they're looking at everything all day and all night.
Um, and, you know, getting prepared for, uh, when there's a potential winterstorm, whether it's extreme cold or snowfall or ice, for that
matter. I think those are the three main ones, um, that, you know, they put alot of time and effort and thought

(12:41):
into that, uh, into telling the school districts what they think is going tohappen.
But it can be so challenging.
Snow, a lot of times it's on the edge of being mixed rain or snow.
Right. Uh, the timing, of course, is so important that that's a big decisionfor you.
You might have a ton of snowfall, but you know, most of it happens overnight.

(13:04):
That's not as impactful, obviously, as if it happens during the day.
So there's the timing.
There's the amount of snow when there's the intensity going to be the highest.
All challenging questions in their own right.
Yes. But um, you know, they do their best to make those forecasts.
But you know, are we right 100% of the time?

(13:26):
When I give that question to school children right away, they say, "no!" Theydon't have to think about it.
And they're right.
And so it's it's definitely a challenging thing for forecasters and for schooldistricts.

SPEAKER1: Yes I agree. (13:41):
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Thank you. Now as you mentioned, another reason we close is cold temperatures.
And we know that the National Weather Service has made some changes toterminology.
Specifically, there's a difference between extreme cold warning which used tobe wind chill warning and cold weather advisories, which used to be wind chill
advisory. Yeah, we tend to close when there are extreme cold warnings.

(14:06):
Can you talk about the difference between the two?

SPEAKER3: Yeah, and I'm just getting acquainted to this as well. (14:08):
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This is going to be new for me.

SPEAKER1: Yeah. Yeah. (14:12):
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SPEAKER3: But I think it's--I can see why they made the change. (14:13):
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And I think it will make things a little more clear to people.
But yeah, for the extreme cold, there's first of all, a watch, by the way, anextreme cold watch.
They put out, uh, ahead of time.
It's kind of like a severe thunderstorm watch when conditions are favorable.
It's the same thing.

(14:33):
So conditions are favorable for temperatures to meet or extreme, or to meet orexceed the local extreme cold warning criteria in the next 12 to 48 hours.
So it's giving you that it could be as much as two days out.
Hey, it could be coming.
Issuing this extreme cold warning might be coming.
When an extreme cold warning is actually issued, that means there's a highpotential for temperatures of five degrees Fahrenheit or lower, regardless of

(15:00):
expected wind speeds.
Um, sometimes it can be just really cold with hardly any wind, or you can havea lot of wind that really drives down that wind chill.
So in very rare cases, this warning may be issued if the hazardous weatherconditions are expected to pose a significant threat to life due to the timing

(15:20):
or other circumstances within--without reaching the criteria stated above.
So you don't have to be exactly in that criteria, but most of the time you willbe.
Um, yeah, the cold weather advisory for 15°F or lower.
Uh, but remaining above that warning criteria of five degrees Fahrenheit.

(15:42):
Okay. Again, regardless of, uh, expected wind speeds.

SPEAKER1: Well, actually, calling a cold day is easier than a snow day. (15:46):
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That's. I mean, they tell us ahead of time we know what's going to happen.
It's much easier to predict than snow patterns, right?
Yeah. So, um, I don't enjoy those, but those are the ones we can call inadvance.
Right. So I think that helps families.
Right? Yeah.

SPEAKER3: But let's hope that the families understand it's really difficult to forecast a snow event, an ice event, and keep that in mind if it doesn't work out (16:07):
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as expected, if there's a closure that happens and it's like, "why did youclose?" Well, there-- you're basing on the best available information in the
early morning. So, you know, just cut the school district some slack if it.

SPEAKER1: Thank you for saying that. (16:31):
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So finally, of course, we're an educational institution.
So we're helping our kids prepare for career options and plan for their future.
So what advice would you give to students who might be interested inmeteorology?

SPEAKER3: If you're interested in science in general? (16:45):
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And that's what I was when I was growing up.
When I was in elementary school, going through high school, I loved science,um, and meteorology was kind of there, but not really on my radar.
So I would say, if you're interested in science, um, give meteorology a look.
Usually there's coursework that you can take.

(17:08):
Um, in elementary school, middle school, you're going to have your weatherunits.
And in high school you can take a class in it.
Um, take advantage of that, I would say.
I would say everybody should take a weather course, and especially if you'reinterested in science and see if it really triggers some things for you because
there's a lot that, again, a lot of positive is a challenging profession.

(17:31):
Every day is different.
Um, but um, it's, it's it's a fun profession.
And, and one I would encourage students to look at.

SPEAKER1: Wonderful. Thank you for your time today. (17:40):
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SPEAKER3: You're welcome. (17:42):
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SPEAKER1: Now, we'd like to talk with one of our own OSD parents who has students in our district to discuss some common questions that we get from families about snow (17:44):
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days. Welcome to Inside the OSD.
Could you start by introducing yourself?
Yes.

SPEAKER4: Thank you for having me on today. (18:00):
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My name is Julia Bavery and I am a mom to four.
I have a child in high school, one at the middle school, a kiddo in 4K and oneat home waiting patiently for his turn.

SPEAKER1: Waiting patiently. (18:12):
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All right. So to me, that means you're a wonderful person to talk to becauseyou have multiple perspectives on the student experience.
So after listening to the complexity of predicting weather and calling snowdays, what questions come to mind for you as a parent or questions that you've
heard from others about snow days and their impact on kids and families?

SPEAKER4: Yeah, the first thing is the timing. (18:35):
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Of course, we all want it to be as soon as possible, but what is the latestthat you would call it?

SPEAKER1: That's a great question. (18:44):
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Um, as you heard from Bob Lindmeier, it's really difficult to predict inadvance.
So while I would love to be able to call it the day before, That puts themargin of error at a place that I'm very often uncomfortable with.
So what I do, and what many other superintendents in the area do, is we get ona National Weather Service call that's usually about

(19:10):
3:45 in the morning.
To get the latest update on whatever is happening, connect to our weather.
And then we are consulting with one another and we all have to wait for inputfrom either people who are driving the roads
or transportation directors, people who are out there on the roads giving ussome input.

(19:34):
And all of that is happening between 4 and 5:30 in the morning.
Really, I would say 6 a.m.
is probably the latest we would call it, because we really do have a very shortwindow of time and a lot of pieces are coming
together. But I'm also thinking about our families and how difficult it is tofind last minute care.

(19:58):
So we try really hard to do all of the things I mentioned before 6 a.m..

SPEAKER4: Perfect. What process do you go through to call a snow day? (20:03):
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SPEAKER1: Well, I just described it a little bit. (20:08):
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It really takes a lot of information gathering, consultation with the peoplewho are currently on the roads.
I'm also talking to our transportation director, Larry Mayo.
So there are a lot of people giving input.
And area superintendents are often on a text chain with one another givinginput as to what they are doing.

(20:36):
Um, people don't make calls based on what a neighboring district is doing, buttheir input, um, is always, you know, a part of gathering the information
that's necessary to make a decision.
So bus transportation really plays a big issue, a big part in this.
You have to think about what it's like to drive a bus and safety relatedfactors related to driving a bus on roads that are challenging.

(21:01):
And you also have to make sure that all of your bus drivers can actually get totheir bus, you know, and really difficult situations.
That's a factor also.

SPEAKER4: So you mentioned that you talked to other districts, and it seems like sometimes you guys make different calls. (21:12):
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SPEAKER1: Absolutely. So we all are responsible for our own individual districts, and we have to make the calls that are best for our districts. (21:19):
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But um, we do share information and we do talk to one another because we caninform one another's
decisions. But road conditions in one area of Dane County may be very differentfrom the road conditions in another area of Dane County.

(21:46):
Consequently, we don't all move uniformly in making these decisions becausethings do vary.
Um, some of the school districts that have a lot of rural roads have a muchmore difficult time, because it's less likely that the plows are getting to
those roads before we need to pick kids up.

(22:08):
So you know where you are in the county, the location of the storm, the typesof roads that your busses or your families are traveling.
All of those things are factors in why we simply don't always make the samedecisions, even when we're in similar locations.

SPEAKER4: Um, last year I recalled us having a two hour delay when others called a full day. (22:28):
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What was the decision making strategy in this?

SPEAKER1: Oh boy, that was something I was really eager to try because very often when you make an inclement weather call, the weather is poor. (22:36):
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When kids would be getting on the bus or in the car to come to school.
However, a couple of hours later, it can very often look much more positive.
Much more safe.

(22:57):
And in those situations, you know, you have to do it because you want to keepthe kids safe in the morning.
But boy, do you wish missing--you wish you didn't have to miss all of thatinstruction.
So we planned ahead last year to get all of our ducks in a row related tohaving a late start.
Not all school districts can do it.

(23:18):
There's a lot of factors connected to it, but we felt that we could give it atry and actually it worked quite well.
And I think it's a strategy we will employ in the future when the timing of astorm is such that we know that students and
bus drivers and families who are driving the car, they all need a little bitmore time for the roads to get better, but we are able to actually get them into

(23:45):
school and get them into school safely if we just wait two hours.
So I was super pleased with how it went.
We will use it again and not all school districts are doing it, so you will seesome more variation around the county.

SPEAKER4: That sounds good. (23:59):
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How do our snow days impact our school calendar?

SPEAKER1: Well, we build in three days, so if we use those three days, then we know the last day of school will be whatever has been indicated on the calendar. (24:03):
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If we don't use those days, school might end a little bit early.
It's an unusual way to do it, but it does give us those three days of inclementweather cushion.

(24:24):
And I think that's really, really helpful because when we run out of those daysand we have more than three snow days, we have to think about
meeting the DPI required number of instructional minutes.
So we have to think, "do we add on a few minutes to every day?
Do we move a professional development day into a full attendance day?

(24:47):
Do we utilize the option of virtual instruction?" So we really try to thinkahead and have the best plan, but it often
depends on when it does depend on if we have used those three days.
But if we have, when have we?
Because that really helps us better understand what our options are for meetingthe required number of instructional minutes.

SPEAKER4: So you mentioned that the last day of school is tentative on our school calendar. (25:12):
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When will you know the official last day of school?

SPEAKER1: Well, you know what? We have a day in our head and it's sort of it's really around mid-April. (25:18):
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And I know it's tempting, especially when you have a beautiful spring day tothink, "oh, winter is over, just call the day." But if you remember, last year
we had a snow day after spring break, so we really shouldn't, in all goodconscience, call it before mid-April because there could be

(25:43):
additional bad weather days.
And so that's when we try to make that call.

SPEAKER4: Perfect. One last question. (25:47):
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If you don't call a snow day, but we aren't comfortable sending our child, whatis the process for that?

SPEAKER1: Thank you for bringing that up. (25:55):
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I--if you hadn't, I hope I would have remembered that because that's a reallybig deal.
If school is going on, but you don't think the roads are safe.
You can call your child's school, say you're keeping them home, and the absencedoesn't count as part of the number of days that a parent can excuse a child
from school.

SPEAKER4: Perfect. Thank you. (26:16):
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SPEAKER1: You bet. (26:17):
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SPEAKER5: Remember that you can find links to all episodes of Inside the OSD and submit topic ideas on our website at (26:19):
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OregonSD.org/podcast. You can find this podcast anywhere you can find podcasts.
Make sure to subscribe if you're listening on one of these apps to getnotifications on the most recent episodes.

(26:40):
We'll see you next time on Inside the OSD, where it's all about the kids.