EPISODE 3

JBMV Discussion w/ Dr. Kirk E. Harris, about historical sources informing Urban Planners, in today's community planning environments. 

Episode Transcript

(00:10):
Welcome back to the Just By My Vote podcast.
I am Joseph Simmons,
the host and also author of the new book Just Buy My Vote,
African American voting rights and the Chicago Condition.
I am super excited about my guest today.
Someone that has been a mentor to me and full disclosure was the first to suggest and encourage me to start this podcast today.

(00:35):
I'm honored to be joined by Doctor Kirk Harris,
lawyer, Urban Planner,
faculty member at the University of Wisconsin Milwaukee,
at the Graduate of Urban Planning and also host of the podcast,
Black Dispatch,
Doctor Harris.
Welcome to the Just Buy My Vote podcast.

(00:56):
Thank you brother Joe.
We really appreciate the opportunity to be on today and it's always good to,
to see you to be in support of your work and the book that I think will have significant import for those who have the opportunity to read it.
And I encourage people to and particularly if you're interested in understanding how the politics of location,

(01:21):
particularly in places like Chicago can have a uh um a significant impact on how our votes are expressed and are realized in the context of the political process.
So thank you for your authorship.
Greatly appreciated.
Cool.
Well,
it's obvious that,
uh,
there are several things that we could talk about in the time that we have.

(01:42):
However,
I'd like to start by asking you to address the JBMV Avatar and I'll explain what I mean in my writing of the book.
Just Buy My Vote.
I found myself continually asking what are the best sources of American history.
So please address the JBMV avatar if you will,

(02:04):
he or she is a 20 to 30 year old male or female and interested in history.
But for whatever reason was not a history major in school or maybe didn't attend college.
He or she is wondering,
where do I start?
Doctor Kirk Harris,
what have you found to be your favorite or best sources?

(02:25):
Well,
let me just say and thank you for asking that question because I think it's a fascinating question in large measure because history is told by,
by so many people and history also is told from the lens of,
of different perspectives.
And one of the,
the most recent pieces of history that I have completely enjoyed.

(02:49):
And I see the the kind of the integrated nexus and evolving nature of that history in the context of our day to day realities,
what we experience in our communities and the stresses and inequalities that we see.
Uh the book,
the,
the 1619 project by uh Nicole Hannah Jones,

(03:11):
amazing,
amazing work,
amazing work because it really seeks to understand and uncover the ways in which African American existence in America.
And by the way,
I was an african-american history major in,
in college,

(03:31):
I went to Rutgers University Rutgers College and African American History is American history.
Somehow we talk about like African American history and American history,
but African American history is American history.
So I wanna get that like laid out there.
And so,
and that's what I think is so really important about the 1619 project.

(03:53):
And what Hannah Jones lays out is that this evolving reality of black people landing in the Americas and the experience of slavery and the contributions,
challenges,
pain,
anguish,
and devastation that manifested the realities of chattel slavery in America have defined every single aspect of the way in which America functions today.

(04:23):
And what I found so powerful is just the numerous examples of American history captured in the context of the Black experience and how that Black experience has shaped what we know to be America today.
And so for those and the beauty of this book is it's not only in a book,

(04:44):
but it's also now in audible books and those kind of things.
So even if you don't want to sit down and read the the book page,
you know,
turn the pages old school,
it's really well done in terms of being available in audible and those kind of things.
So I would strongly encourage those who are interested in history to look at that book.

(05:06):
And it has,
it,
it goes from health to politics,
to economics,
to voting to,
oh my gosh,
it just music to just so many aspects of what we understand,
to be what touches our lives on a daily basis.
And it does so in such a comprehensive way and has a number of very compelling authors which are compiled who tell from various perspectives,

(05:35):
which is why I also like the book because as I said,
history is told from various perspectives and she appreciated from various perspectives.
Um not just one perspective,
it's told from various perspectives and gives us a really nice kind of picture.
Um The opportunities,
opportunities to understand America today.
America in the past.

(05:55):
Yes.
And a prospect for what we could hope America to be in the future.
Uh If we kind of reflect on where we've been.
So we don't repeat that history.
Although I have to say,
Brother Joe,
I'm very America is really in a bad shape from my perspective.
I think we've got some deep,
deep seated problems in terms of our polity.

(06:20):
Our politics are so divisive.
We've got A political process that simply doesn't serve the collective as it should.
So I think there's a,
you know,
whether we're looking at nine on,
you know,
the,
the,
the,
the,
the crazy stuff that happened in terms of the storming of the capital and to the way our polarized nature of our politics.

(06:44):
Today,
our national politics,
today there is something wrong in the America system.
Uh Something is breaking down in this.
Yeah.
II,
I would just add to that.
I believe that the only solution is to get the next election.
Right.
Well,
let me just say,
I,
I think certainly the,
the election serves as a marker for ensuring that those who we think are gonna be more destructive in the process of governance are out and those who are more collaborative and more willing to listen and really support the democratic principles,

(07:22):
like one person,
one vote,
for example,
which I'm sure you're very familiar with.
I think you're right.
It's,
it's about the election,
but it's,
I also think it's about how,
what we as Americans are willing to not tolerate what we're not willing to tolerate,
I should say and what we're,
what we're gonna,

(07:43):
how we're gonna hold the,
the,
the those who are asserting the,
the kinds of principles and practices that are inconsistent with what we call democracy.
Uh don't win the day and that they are,
they held,
they're held to account for what they do and what they say that undermines the democratic uh principle.
So you're in that way.

(08:03):
You're right.
But I also think it's,
it's,
it's more than just the election.
It's,
it's about how we as Americans force the realities of a fair and free and open elections and recognize that the reason we can be governed is because the Americans people allow the governance to happen.

(08:26):
I mean,
that's what our constitution says essentially says.
We go,
you know,
those who are governed,
allow those to govern and when they see that things are going off the rail,
they have to challenge that.
Right?
And so I think,
I think we're in some ways uh there and we're,
and I think if we can solve the problem of what reality is,

(08:48):
as opposed to what's fake news and what,
what's constructed through people's imagination and,
and paranoia,
if we can get away from that,
we might be doing ourselves a service.
Well,
we got a lot of work to do.
Yeah,
we do.
Definitely,
definitely.
You have also another source.
So the other source that I really like and as an urban planner,

(09:10):
I've read this book and it,
I use it with my students.
It's by Richard Rothstein.
And why did I,
I just had a senior moment.
It's called the Color of Law.
And it's a really fantastic historical rendition of how policy and practice over decades,

(09:32):
centuries in America have created the segregated society,
the racially segregated society that we see today.
And,
and all the ramifications of that hyper segregation in terms of the unequal distribution of resources,
whether it be education,
economic development,
whether it be health care,

(09:52):
I mean,
all of these,
it has major ramifications for the ways in which we experience our day to day realities and,
and the fact is Joe,
as you know,
I don't need to tell you that all the indicators.
Unfortunately,
in American society suggest that race is a significant determinant of health outcomes,

(10:13):
educational outcomes,
economic outcomes and,
and we live in a society where that still is determinative of your success unfortunately.
Right.
You know,
it's interesting because I actually referenced that book a number of times as a reference in my book and I have have used it mainly as the explanation for many of the disparities that exist.

(10:41):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And you know,
as a planner,
the making of place is what we do and the making of place is really about how resources are distributed uh across place or across region and city.
And what we know is that there's a,
there's a,
a malapportionment of resources based on demographics and uh economics.

(11:08):
And so,
you know,
racial distinct,
these racial demographic elements which have driven so much of the inequality are magnified by the economic inequalities that in some ways run hand in hand with the racial inequalities.
Right.
Right.
So,
so what was fascinating is how the,

(11:29):
how the federal policies and,
and governmental policies have have facilitated.
Yeah,
they facilitated all that and,
and you know,
that's what the one of the things is,
what I find so fascinating about this,
particularly in the context of us talking about.
I mean,
you know,
there's been lots of discussion about reparations and,
and the ways in which these past wrongs need to be corrected and how to do that.

(11:52):
And,
and here's the thing,
you know,
government created the problem.
Government policy.
Initially,
it was private practice,
but then government policy codified the private practice and then magnified it through all elements of our,
our civic life.

(12:13):
So and had did so over centuries.
So if that's true,
then government has the res the damn responsibility and putting as much money as they,
as much money as they put in effort,
they put into creating the system,
they've got to put an equal amount of money and effort and time into deconstructing.
No,
no doubt about it.

(12:34):
My,
my belief is,
is that economics is the cure to a uh a litany of ills and particularly in the black community.
And you're right.
But let's,
let's ask the question if,
what do we mean by that?
You know,
we can make a few rich black folks.
No,
no,
no,
no,
no,
no.
My,
my,
my position on that is,

(12:55):
is uh in terms of really and I,
I believe in this,
I believe that it's,
it's time for really a third reconstruction.
I agree with you.
I agree with you.
And if we,
if in our first reconstruction,
we had have done what we said we were committed to,
we wouldn't be having this discussion today.
You're right.
So I agree with you and I like the fact that you put it into Reconstruction because Reconstruction talks about remaking of all the civic political and economic systems and ensuring that those systems are reconstructed to embrace and support the democratic principles and the people,

(13:32):
all the people in it in it.
So I agree with you 100%.
Woohoo,
all the people in agreement.
OK.
All right.
Now,
in shifting gears,
Doctor Harris,
you can speak on the recent Supreme Court decisions regarding decisions on affirmative action.

(13:58):
Yeah,
I wanna,
I wanna speak on that a little bit largely because I think the Supreme Court of the United States has created this idea and has been working toward uh creating this idea that we are now in a colorblind society.
None of the statistical data as a planner that I'm aware of or know of and look at quite frequently would suggest that fiction that legal fiction that has been created by the Supreme Court is true.

(14:33):
And what I would say is a planner and any other planners who are looking at the Supreme Court decision and asking how should we think about that decision in the context of our work,
which I would say to ignore it because what the Supreme Court has done is sought to create a fiction to create a narrative about where America is.

(14:56):
When in fact,
it is not there,
it is not a racial neutral.
And if you look across all indicators,
health,
you look across economics,
you look across education,
you look across what other areas home ownership,
um and look,
just look across all of those,
all those domains.
And you can see that race is the defining feature of the inequalities that we experience.

(15:20):
So answer me this question because you're a smart guy,
Joe,
you're a smart guy.
How could it be?
And because you,
you are into voting in the political economy of voting,
I want to ask you this question,
how could it be that,
that those statistics are true?
And the Supreme Court come out with a decision that it did that we should be,

(15:42):
we should,
we should be a race,
neutral society.
And we shouldn't,
we shouldn't use race as and as accounting for the ways in which we try to address these issues that we experience in our society.
Well,
I don't believe it is true.
I uh I would say that um you know,
my,
I will go back to the reconstruction ideas.

(16:04):
Obviously,
at the first reconstruction was ended with a counter revolution and then the second reconstruction which I referred to uh I referred to the second reconstruction because of the civil rights era.
And then uh uh culminated with the election of President Obama and there was a counter revolution,

(16:24):
meaning that they took back mainly in,
in the form of,
you know,
taking back uh voting rights with Shelby,
et cetera,
et cetera.
And now it is still a part of the counter revolution of taking us back or making things the way that a certain group in this society wants to make them.

(16:46):
So I couldn't,
I couldn't agree with you more.
And I think that the,
I like the idea of a counter revolution because we do see these back backlashes.
I'm trying to think um there was a,
a comment,
a news,
a black news commentator that,
that called it white lash where the privileges,
the privileges of that class of folks who seem to believe that they,

(17:11):
their advantage was slipping away,
began to kind of mitigate toward more undemocratic and more,
less willing to appreciate uh the roles of having inclusive society and becoming more polarized in their thinking and more adversarial to these,

(17:32):
these ideas of embracing difference and embracing inclusion.
And I think that group of individuals and,
and,
and I don't know if you've,
I don't know when uh one of the things that are really interesting is I in one of my classes,
I use Obama's speech that he made on race when he was running as a candidate.

(17:53):
Uh Have you ever seen that speech that he made?
Uh you tell me,
I don't recall.
Yeah,
it's called,
it's called Perfecting Our Democracy or Perfecting America.
Uh And it was a speech that he made in Philadelphia when he was a candidate.
And,
and he talked about this idea that we have a challenge in America because many of the,

(18:18):
the uh those individuals that have been historically privileged by the benefits of America have seen those benefits slipping away.
White,
middle class and working class Americans have seen those benefits slipping away as more jobs have moved overseas.
There's been A de Industrial,
you know,
it used to be,

(18:38):
you could have a high school or less than a high school degree and make good,
good wages at industrial related work,
steel mills,
uh car factories,
other places were manufacturing that has is less the case.
Now we're in a service economy,
a service and and finance economy in which many of those individuals have never found their footing and they've lost ground.

(19:03):
And many of the corporate decisions that have explained that have continued to exacerbate that challenge for them.
But instead of placing that challenge on the decision making that's happening in the court,
the boardroom,
those challenges are hoisted on black and brown people who are said to be responsible because they're,

(19:25):
they're taking up so many government benefits and they're coming across the border to take our jobs.
It becomes uh it becomes a way of obfuscating of really where the problem really lies in the,
in the,
in the challenge experience,
the financial precariousness experienced by that class of in white working and middle class individuals.

(19:48):
And I think that's part of the angst and the fear and anger,
but it's misplaced in,
in,
in the context of,
of inclusion and being against it.
Ie look at what's happening uh with the Supreme Court decision.
You know,
we shouldn't be considering race because,

(20:09):
you know,
it,
it challenges everything that we know is right about how we should be positioned in America.
And so I think,
you know,
we've got so much work to do and we as planners if we fall victim and thinking about that race neutrality,
our ability to think strategically on the ground,

(20:30):
which we do our work in communities in which we do our work,
which are so hyper segregated,
our ability to work in those communities in the absence of understanding that will neuter us in our ability to be effective in bringing around a,
a change that is equitable and,
and consistent with that democratic practice.

(20:50):
Right.
Right.
I follow you.
Hey,
I got another question for you because I know you talk to students all the time and the time we have left,
what's one piece of advice you'd offer to your 20 year old self?
Oh God.
Can I go back?
can I go back 40 years in my 20 year old?

(21:16):
Well,
I would say,
and I've tried to do this to my,
I think,
to my detriment,
but I,
I think ultimately to my uh but it preserves my sanity is to stay true to your values.
If there's one thing that happens,
you,
you,
you have to stay true to your values,
you have to,

(21:37):
you have to understand what your values are what you,
what you believe in,
what you think is right and true.
You have to work toward that end.
And,
and sometimes it's not gonna be easy holding to those values because they may very well be in conflict with the circumstance that you find them,
them themselves yourself in.
I train planning students for example,

(21:59):
and I can tell you that so many of my students find themselves working in planning positions in which considering these larger questions of equity and race and,
and issues of in class inequality as a way of thinking about the planning process.
Sometimes they're challenged because they find themselves in middle class,

(22:21):
middle class bedroom communities who doing planning,
who are exclusive and aren't very diverse and want to keep people out.
That's the planning function has been for years to keep certain groups of individuals out through zoning practices and housing practices and other kinds of things.
And here they find themselves saying we need to do something different if we're gonna realize the democratic principles and they find themselves in conflict.

(22:48):
But,
and I,
I tell them that partly what that means is that they have to make some decisions and you can offer up a different view of the world respectfully and if it's not received,
then you have to make some decisions about whether this is a place that you want to be,
need to be and can be productive in.

(23:09):
And so you gotta be really careful where you seek to exercise your skill and expertise,
to ensure that it's consistent,
wherever you're doing,
it's consistent with your values.
Because when it's all said and done,
you have to look yourself up in the mirror and when you,
and,
and in the morning and when you're laying on your last,
speaking,
your last breath to say that you did,

(23:30):
you violated your own principles for whether it be money or fame or whatever the case might be.
I can say that that won't be something that you'll ultimately be proud of.
So I guess I would just advise my 20 year old self to know yourself,
stick to your values.
Uh Make sure that you associate because you can't do that by yourself.

(23:54):
Sometimes you need to associate with individuals of like minds so that you can have conversations and have a support group and also be self reflective.
It's also,
it's always important for you to be self reflective about what you're doing and what you're not doing.
And even at my age and by this point in my career,
periodically I stop and ask myself,
am I doing what I'm supposed to be doing consistent with what I say?

(24:16):
I want to change in the world.
So I think that's important.
Perfect.
Well,
Doctor Kirk Harris,
thank you so much and thank you for sharing with our listeners today.
Well,
Brother Joe,
it's always good to be with you and uh really wish you the best with your podcast.
I think,
uh,
it will be extremely successful because,

(24:38):
uh,
you got the right kind of temperament and the right kind of questions.
Well,
well,
we hope you enjoyed that episode of the Just Buy My Vote podcast.
We're looking forward to the next episodes.
You can find the book at Just Buy My Vote dot com and feel free to follow us at Just Buy My Vote podcast dot com for notification on upcoming podcasts and events.

(25:06):
We thank you for the privilege of your time and until next time Just Buy My Vote.