EPISODE 6

JBMV Discussion w/ Dr. Kim L. Dulaney, Vice President of Education & Programs, the DuSable Black History Museum and Education Center, Chicago, IL.

Episode Transcript

(00:11):
Welcome to the Just Buy My Vote podcast.
I am Joseph Simmons,
the host and also author of the new book,
Just Buy My Vote,
African American voting rights and the Chicago Condition. Before I introduce my guest,
for those that are not familiar with the Just Buy My Vote podcast.
I'm proud to say that we launched this podcast on the fourth of July and began a schedule of publishing new episodes every other Wednesday.

(00:38):
However,
last week,
we had a bump in our schedule and from that bump came a couple of benefits.
One,
we will publish a new episode every week in the month of October,
which I'm very excited about.
And the second benefit is my guest today. Because of the nature of my book,

(01:01):
which covers a fair amount of African American history in Chicago.
The DuSable Museum in Chicago was at the top of my list when I decided to launch this podcast.
So I'm honored to have with me today,
Dr Kim L Dulaney,
Vice President of Education and programs for the now newly named DuSable Black History Museum and Education Center,

(01:27):
Doctor Kim Dulaney.
Welcome to the Just Buy My Vote podcast.
Hi,
thanks for having me.
Absolutely.
It's my pleasure.
Uh I'm sure there are a lot of things that we can talk about in the time we have.
But I'd like if you wouldn't mind to start by talking a little bit about your namesake for the museum.
Jean Baptiste Point DuSable.

(01:50):
Yeah.
So um John Baptiste Point DuSable is the proper name,
but we,
we say DuSable here in Chicago,
most of us.
So um uh DuSable was the inspiration uh for Doctor Burroughs renaming the museum in 1968 during the height of the Black Power movement.

(02:11):
Doctor Burroughs,
who created the museum to highlight,
to preserve,
celebrate and highlight black history thought that it would be um a great idea to name the museum after DuSable who is credited with being the founder of the city.
Um It should be noted that DuSable was a Haitian,

(02:34):
supposedly of Haitian and French descent.
And um it's so much to be celebrated about him here.
There were people here when he came here.
But in the United States,
you're given credit for um founding a city kind of when you found the commercial aspect or Industry Act aspect of a city.

(02:57):
And so though there were native people living uh on the land here,
he created an organized market in this area.
So he's credited with being the founder of uh Chicago and that greatly impacts the character of uh Black Chicago,
at least that's the seeding point for Black Chicago.
He was known for working well with the people in the area,

(03:22):
right?
He came in as a true African centered focus and immersed himself in the culture and in the people.
Uh he married a native woman,
um built,
loved and built a family here with a native woman which even uh helped to strengthen uh his,
his business here actually,

(03:43):
you know,
and have him be accepted even more in the area.
So he's very successful.
He had trading posts in multiple places.
Um He built the first kind of what some call a mansion in the area.
So when black people came to Chicago,
um our ancestors came with the understanding that this was a place where if you put the work in,

(04:09):
you could,
you could build here,
you could build here,
you could have a fair,
they thought fair and equitable life.
If anywhere you could have it possibly in Chicago because the precedent had already been set with.
Um Sure.
Sure.
And,
and it sounds like eventually uh there was a re branding of,

(04:31):
is it the Lakeshore Drive that was renamed?
Yes.
So we had DuSable High School here.
Um That was,
that was named uh for DuSable back in,
I think 19 thirties maybe.
And then you had uh the museum which is important uh that whole legacy and the spirit of that,
that whole revolutionary spirit to come and just uh be productive,

(04:56):
be productive.
As I said,
and to build,
that's very important and then uh make sure drive more recently.
Perfect.
Uh Can you tell us a little bit more about that in terms of,
I,
I believe it was Margaret Taylor Burroughs.
Can you tell us about uh how that,
how that came about?

(05:16):
What's that,
the founding of the museum?
Yes,
ma'am.
Yeah.
So,
Doctor Burroughs,
a worldly woman,
an educator and activist and artist.
She collected art in her home on 38th of Michigan.
That's where she lives.
But she collected art and just displayed it in her home uh because she was so immersed in the community and,

(05:39):
and,
and a pillar in the community.
Her home was visited uh by a lot of people and she would have what's called salons,
you know,
these gatherings in her home.
And um people would ask questions about the art and be curious.
Uh She had traveled to the continent of Africa and was a collector.
So people would ask questions about the art.

(06:01):
So which made her want to put out more pieces.
And this,
they would be uh discussion points,
discussion starters and things like that.
So she recognized that people were very interested in the culture and interested in learning about the pieces and the culture and the art.
Uh and it grew and grew until she realized that uh the uniqueness of what she was doing and that there was no formal place,

(06:29):
independent place that was doing that.
So she decided to start a museum uh and she got some friends together and they started the first museum um like I said,
first,
it was in our house,
but then uh she started this museum as we have it now.
Interesting.
And I understand you're going through a transformation or you corrected me and said a rebranding.

(06:51):
Please tell me about that.
Well,
we,
we rebrand,
rebranded uh last year uh to the DuSable Black History Museum and Education Center.
And um our people who lead the museum uh were of the thought that uh which is what we believe,

(07:13):
you know,
that Black history is connected to people of African descent around the globe.
So what not just limited,
you can't really get the fullness of us when we're still in a state of repair in this country and reclamation and restoration.
Uh You can't really get a clear understanding of who we are just by looking at African Americans.

(07:37):
So we're intentional about connecting to the continent of Africa looking at traditional cultures into um all over the world where we find people of African descent.
Um And in,
in,
in their cultures.
Interesting.
Ok.
Um I read also that the museum there is a Smithsonian affiliate.

(08:03):
Could you please explain that relationship?
Yes,
that's so interesting to me.
Um Like we have when we're highlight because Smithsonian is a bigger museum.
It's,
it's well funded.
It's a great museum.
It's II I find it's kind of tickles me when people are like,
oh,
you associate with Smithsonian,
like that's a big deal when it's the big deal that Smithsonian and I are affiliated with each other because the museum is the oldest independent black history museum in the country.

(08:34):
You know,
uh uh with Doctor Burroughs having that foresight and then Lonnie Bunch,
who was very instrumental in the development of the Smithsonian after the National African American Museum.
That's a part of the Smithsonian.
Um He,
I saw an interview with him where he said himself that she was a great and what her and what she was able to accomplish was the motivation for what he was doing with the Smithsonian,

(09:04):
right?
And so it's,
it's,
it's just a rightful um kind of extension and beautiful thing for us to be in partnership with the Smithsonian.
So to be an affiliate is to have access to their resources.
Like I said,
it's a,
a big museum with a lot of resources,

(09:24):
financial resources,
uh which uh yields uh great access to information and people and data and uh you know,
historical documents and things of that sort,
all of those things that you need money to get.
And so we have access to those things.
So we're very appreciative of,
of that um connection also,

(09:47):
sometimes there's themed programming that all of the affiliates are so that we're in kind of in unison with understanding or we're highlighting certain things around the same time.
So it's just like being in the trade industry,
kinda,
you know,
being involved in the trade industry or,
uh,
uh,
organizations that are specific for,

(10:10):
um,
certain fields.
So,
you've definitely seen benefits.
I mean,
was there a time when you weren't an affiliate of the Smithsonian?
How did that come about?
Well,
we weren't an affiliate when they started because,
remember we,
we already existed so,
once they started and I wasn't here at the time.
So I don't,
I don't know what the process was to but,

(10:30):
but I do know that it's a natural fit since that was started,
inspired by this,
right?
So it actually helps your function there.
Huh?
Yeah,
it's,
it's always helpful to be in community.
It's African,
that's what we do.
African centeredness is to be in community with other people of similar goals and interests.

(10:51):
So,
OK.
Uh and then I noticed that there were a couple of functions that you,
you guys have planned and I mean,
there's this rebranding or transformation really is an expansion into the community.
Yeah,
we wanted to be intention.
I'm a retired professor of African American Studies.
That's what I am African American studies scholar.
When I came over,
we were talking about how if you control narratives,

(11:16):
then you are responsible for that.
You are educating people when you control narratives,
right?
So we wanted to be intentional about acknowledging uh that we recognize that responsibility that we are educating people.
So,
uh it seemed a natural fit to put the title into our name because we're,

(11:39):
we are not confused about that.
We know that we're educating people.
And so,
yeah,
so we rebrand to an educational center.
We are expanding in that we're offering more by being intentional about the naming.
We can expand to offer more um classes which museums do a lot anyway.

(12:01):
But,
you know,
offer more classes and to structure ourselves um intentionally in a way that aligns with more recognizable uh in,
in uh educational institutions.
Interesting,
interesting by the way you being an African American history scholar,
do you have a favorite source?

(12:21):
Favorite source?
So,
um yes,
because I came through structured educational systems,
I understand the need for varied sources,
right?
In this,
in this work of deconstructing and reconstructing narratives and trying to get it right,

(12:41):
you need to be tapped into all kinds of sources.
So I definitely respect um uh academicians and people who publish books and things like that.
But I also respect the people themselves in the lived cultures,
you know,
in the wisdom that's that are,
that are uh the wisdom that is uh in kind of trapped in the people who are living the experience,

(13:05):
right?
So uh some of my sources include,
of course,
um definitely textbooks,
you could find great list out here with all the classics on it and all of the books that are getting attention in addition to that uh I think it's important to be in community with other scholars.
That's just from an African Centered perspective.
If you're trying to exist in that space,

(13:27):
we know we're not it like I'm not the grand knowledge.
So whenever I see people like that,
I'm like,
oh,
they need a little more training because we're a collective and communalism is the main part of the African Center uh perspectives and understanding.
So with that,
I said,
I'm a part of community communities of scholars so that we can bounce ideas off each other.

(13:52):
Share information.
One will be the National Council of Black Studies,
right?
And that's all the Black Studies uh programs uh you know,
kind of in the country.
That's one source,
the other very uh uh uh reliable source.
I consider it is my good friend uh Doctor Greg Carr has this program that he started with uh Karen Hunter and it's called uh in class with Carr.

(14:18):
It comes on Saturdays,
you can watch it on youtube for free,
but he's often touching on um popular topics,
you know,
hot topics and he is his training and his brilliance just helps um him to connect those popular talk topics to this,

(14:39):
to the history.
And so um that is very important to me.
And so it's almost like a giant class with Dr Carr and all the resources that he has.
And so that's a narrative with A K and then you can watch in class with Carr,
it's free on youtube,
but you can do a low paid subscription.
There's a nominal fee to be in narrative that's important to watch him.

(15:00):
Um There's also,
um,
a,
Asalh right as a which was started by Woodson himself here in Chicago,
but that organization still exists.
It is history.
Um,
that's a little different in African American studies,
which is,
which is mine field that's history,
but that's in,
involved in African American studies as well too.

(15:22):
So as Asalh,
is a good organization,
so organizations,
there are some less serves but um mostly I would say organizations because that's when you hear the conversations about the books and the challenging uh of um new information as we attempt to um,

(15:44):
deconstruct and reconstruct uh to restore this history with being inclusive of the African experience.
Interesting.
If I pressed you a little bit on giving us a favorite book that whether it was your most recent or one that sticks in your memory throughout your studies,
what would,
what would you say?

(16:05):
Well,
a favorite book,
my favorite book probably for Black Studies is Marimba Ani, what's the name of it?
I'm old.
I'm drawing a blank right now.
Yurugu,
Yurugu,
that's my favorite book because she talks about that,
you know,
this cultural seed and that is nothing more.

(16:27):
I'm a person who really,
because the,
the field gets so crowded with so much stuff,
you know,
and it's sometimes it sounds like just rhetoric and then the minutia messes it up when she introduces that concept of this and talks about this cultural seed.
It's so powerful for me.
That's,
that's like I'm a core concept person.

(16:47):
So it to me shaves off all of the extra and we get right to the core of it.
So that was,
that's probably my favorite text.
But the current text I'm reading is this book by um Bettina Love this new Bettina Love book.
And it's so courageous that it is uh probably uh one that I would recommend right now.

(17:09):
It's not my favorite,
but again,
it's not,
it does not call for,
but just the courageousness of her to call a thing to thing and to gather the information and to make it plain,
I think she's doing kind of for black education.
What uh the new Jim Crow did for the penal system.

(17:32):
You know,
it's just doing that.
It's making these um connections and covering up things and showing new iterations of the same old thing.
So I think it's pretty powerful.
Interesting,
Doctor Dulaney.
Where are you from?
I'm from Chicago.
Oh,
you were born and raised in Chicago.
Born and raised in Chicago while you hear a little country swag in my voice.

(17:54):
My mother is from Alabama.
My dad's from Mississippi,
but I'm,
I was born in Chicago,
born and raised in Chicago.
Just just,
you know,
they call Chicago the country up North and I'm so happily.
Um uh,
so I actually born and raised in Chicago also.
And when people used to uh,
uh get on the phone with me sometime they would say you sound like you're from the south and I would say from the south side of Chicago.

(18:18):
But,
but uh also a pro uh a product of the great migration.
My dad actually was born and raised in Chicago but my mother,
uh they came up with that from Jackson Mississippi.
So that,
that's what got me really interested in the great migration.
Ok,

(18:39):
cool.
Well,
a lot of people in Chicago are from Alabama or Mississippi.
Their parents are,
you know,
so again,
we call it,
people call it uh the country up north and we,
we have never sought to shave shake that we,
we love it and we,
we proudly carry forth uh that heritage.
Yeah,
I was amazed actually in writing about the great migration,

(19:02):
how much and how many people we had in common,
you know,
in terms of that,
uh that experience when you said Jackson Mississippi,
I was thinking,
I bet his family knows my dad's family.
That's what happened.
You know,
it's one degree of separation.
You get to talking to somebody,
especially if my dad was still living and he would mention something,
somebody mentioned something and they like,

(19:23):
oh,
yeah,
that's so and so is boy and that's,
you know,
it's just what it is.
It's very communal that connection is and it's just beautiful.
Yeah.
It,
it was,
my mother was a part of the Banks family and there were two brothers and three sisters.
So I'm sure if somebody knows somebody down the line.
Right.
How did you wind up at the museum?

(19:45):
Uh,
I was,
I came over and did programming,
like,
you know,
presentation a couple of times at the museum.
But,
um,
I was connected to the museum a while ago when it was concerned citizens for the museum,
a committee uh put together.
And we,
that's when I got more knowledge about the operations in the museum.

(20:08):
And later,
I was asked if I would come to work,
you know,
at the museum.
And I couldn't because my responsibilities at uh Chicago State were so heavy.
But when uh right before COVID started to really get a grip on people,
uh really,
um you know,
uh share things up needed online programming.

(20:30):
So I came over,
I had created the online classes for the African American studies Department at Chicago State.
And I was running that program.
And so,
um I came to help DuSable and create programming that could be could virtual programming during uh COVID.
And then I stayed and the work was so much for,

(20:53):
for part time that it was too much.
So I had to make a decision.
And then I took early retirement from Chicago State to come over full time recognizing that the,
the reach for DuSable was even broader and um the need for,
you know,
just clarity and celebration and even safeguarding of the community and the museum culture uh was there.

(21:21):
So I switched over to that lane.
Very interesting.
Let me ask you one more question.
And in the time we have left,
what advice would you give to yourself,
your 20 year old self?
If you would listen at the time,
my 20 year old self,
I would say,
I don't know,

(21:42):
I,
I would say actually hurry up and go see those elders before they pass.
There you go.
Cause it was a,
there are a lot of people that I encounter in my research and work.
I've met a lot of people over the years and I've always enjoyed and uh valued spending time with elders.
So my 20 year old self,
I would say uh you know,

(22:02):
cut out a couple of the parties and go,
go see the rest of them.
That's funny, li li but a lot more listening.
Right.
Yeah.
Right.
Go see the rest of them.
So I can get firsthand accounts,
you know,
uh record it,
record if you even now for young people and for scholars.
If somebody comes in my office to visit me or I encounter somebody,

(22:25):
I'm always asking, especially with iphones.
You could just say,
hey,
do you mind if I record this because I wanna get firsthand account when we rely on um books created even by scholars,
we know that's through their filter,
right?
And sometimes things are lost in translation.
So to get firsthand accounts from the people themselves about what they think about the thing and what their experience was like.

(22:51):
That's invaluable.
So yeah,
I would say I,
I would have did that a little more and then I would advise people to do that today.
Perfect.
Well,
this has been a real pleasure for me.
Doctor Kim Dulaney.
Thank you so much, and thank you for sharing with our listeners today.
Thank you for having me.
I appreciate it.

(23:12):
Absolutely.
Well.
Well,
we hope you enjoyed that episode of the Just Buy My Vote podcast.
We're looking forward to the next episodes.
You can find the book at Just Buy My Vote dot com and feel free to follow us at Just Buy My Vote podcast dot com for notification on upcoming podcasts and events.

(23:37):
We thank you for the privilege of your time and until next time Just Buy My Vote.