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EPISODE DESCRIPTION
Episode 104: Matt and Taylor are joined by Alkarim Devani. Alkarim is the CEO & Co-Founder of mddl from Calgary, Alberta, who's also the Co-Founder of the development company RNDSQR. Alkarim’s work has gained a multitude of media attention and frequently been the recipient of The Canadian Architecture Awards, MUDA Awards, American Architecture Prize, and the BILD Awards, as well as being a frequent guest lecturer at The University of California, Berkeley, and The University of Calgary. In addition, Alkarim regularly contributes his time to numerous volunteer organizations as well as a number of industry-led boards and communities including D.Talks and Calgary Housing Company.
mddl (pronounced “middle”) is an expert in middle housing, types that fall between single-family homes and apartment buildings, including townhouses, duplexes, and triplexes. As a CMHC Level Up Stage 5 Housing Supply Challenge Finalist, their mission, alongside strategic partners, is to build capacity from top to bottom, and to strategically partner with municipalities, industry experts, and citizens in reducing barriers and delivering middle housing to cities across Canada.
Alkarim is here to discuss: → His journey in real estate and founding RNDSQR, what led to the founding of mddl, and working with governments to support the development of affordable housing. → Why mddl started in Kelowna, what has been working so far in Calgary & Edmonton, and mddl's innovative resources & education programs to empower homeowners, including a GIS tool demo. → Dealing with community concerns of infill housing and increasing community engagement, why development needs homeowners to succeed, and what's needed to make a culture shift in boomers when it comes to housing.
mddl Website: www.mddl.co
mddl Instagram: @mddl.co
mddl LinkedIn: @mddlco
Alkarim Devani's LinkedIn: @AlkarimDevani
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
All right.
(00:00):
Welcome back to the Colonial Real
Estate Podcast.
Colonial Real Estate Podcast.
I'm your mortgage broker host,Taylor Atkinson.
And I'm your real estate agenthost, I'm your real estate agent
Matt Glenn.
What's happening today, Taylor?
Well, you know, Bank of Canadaannouncement came out July 30th.
Yes.
Pretty boring, you know, as
predicted.
Yeah.
You know, I think six months ago,we spoke to Brandon Ogdensen.
Things were much more optimisticfor rate cuts, but obviously...
Tariffs have been a huge topic ofa conversation.
(00:23):
When those tariffs come in, we seeinflation, core inflation that
obviously has to put Bank ofCanada on pause.
So that trade uncertainty and thenjust like our economy in general,
like we have some pretty weakgrowth signals.
So where we're at with that inSeptember, there's now a 13 %
chance for a 25 basis point cut.
And then in October, there's a 24
(00:44):
% chance.
of the same cut.
And then moving on from that, likeby the end of the year, there's a
50 % chance.
It's not like it's adding up
collectively.
It's just 0 .25%.
It's going to likely happen closerto the end of the year.
the So likely get a 0 .25 cut bythe end of the year.
.25 cut by the end of the year.
(01:06):
Yeah.
And I mean, that obviously changesweekly when, you know, information
comes out about job growth andinflation.
Yeah, exactly.
So it's been hard.
to predict.
It's been evolving.
I think what I take away from thatis if you take tariffs out of the
picture and you take the media outof that, we as economy still need
a little bit of a cut.
It means we are at the lower part
(01:26):
of our rate cycle, but it doesn'tmean we've hit it and we're going
back up.
I'm still optimistic on that.
Right before we went on, Yeah, acut.
we went on, you said somethingsuper interesting about mortgages.
Tell us about that.
So what I've been doing a lot with
clients right now over the lastsix to 12 months, us about that.
So what I've been doing a lot withclients right now over the last
(01:46):
six to 12 months, most people arevery stressed about the decision,
whether they go variable or fixedor a three -year fixed or a five
-year fixed.
Right now, everything's pretty
balanced.
Most of the rates are neck and
neck.
So in terms of being qualified,
most people have the option tochoose whatever they want.
But what most people get fixatedon is they have to choose one or
the other.
You don't have to, you can blend
the two products together.
That is so interesting.
(02:07):
I did not know that.
That's crazy.
Specific to just a couple oflenders.
So if you want, you know, say youhave a $500 ,000 mortgage, you can
put 200 ,000 on a variable, 200,000 on a five -year fix and a
hundred thousand on a three -yearfix.
What?You can do three like that?
Crazy.
Yeah.
You can do up to five.
You can really like.
Pick and choose what you want.
(02:27):
It allows people just to like, you
know, hedge their bets a littlebit.
If they think there are some ratecuts, they can do that.
If they think fixed rates aregoing to drop, you know, they can
put a little more on the variableside and then they can lock that
in in the future.
There's lots of flexibility there.
I guess what I preface to clientsusually is like, you know, hey,
when people set this up, they havegood intentions to then go.
I'm going to watch this like ahawk.
And as soon as rates drop, I'mgoing to lock this in and switch
(02:52):
that.
Yeah.
Let's be honest.
Most people don't.
It's usually like a set it andforget it.
But yeah, it's something that Ithink is not well known about or
people just don't talk about.
Yeah, I didn't know that.
So if you're out there and you'rekind of torn between fixed
variable, five year fixed, threeyear fixed, whatever.
Yeah, reach out.
We can.
This is why we have you on thepod.
the pod.
The one and only reason.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No other reason than that.
that.
Yeah.
We waited for three years to get
(03:13):
this out of you.
Yeah, exactly.
That's great info, honestly,Taylor.
You're probably going to use that,yeah.
So anyways, we'll keep you updatedon this stuff, obviously.
But at this point, pretty boringstuff.
Not a lot's changing.
We'll just kind of watch inflation
and see what happens with tariffs.
But yeah.
Nice.
And then, yeah, today's show is
awesome, man.
We've been trying to connect with
Al from Middle Housing for likesix months.
(03:34):
I went to one of their events inKelowna.
And yeah, they're doing somereally cool stuff.
Primarily like... I see it asmostly education based for people
that want to learn.
Yeah.
Like he's obviously done a ton ofdevelopments himself.
And now he's kind of stepped awayfrom that.
And it's just primarily focusingon educating people.
And like.
Very affordable education courses,
you know, like you can go to oneof their one day events for like
(03:56):
150 bucks.
And I think most of that is
because they're getting subsidizedor, you know, being given grants
federally or from municipalitiesto come and help people because
this is such an obvious solution.
Like, yeah, he's helping people
with infill housing, down there inthe house, building three units or
carriage house or whatever,building more houses.
Yeah.
And it seems like they're using
(04:17):
Kelowna as a testing ground for alot of this stuff, which is super
cool too.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, I think everyoneknows Kelowna has been very
evolved in this space.
They're really like leading in a
municipality and it doesn't justmean like they're focusing on
investors, how to like tear down asingle family house and build a
fourplex.
Like it could be.
(04:38):
a generational house where youwant to bring in a family member
and have some rental revenue yeahlike they focus nationally so i
think on the investment front it'sprobably a little more lucrative
in like alberta where the cost ofland is a little bit cheaper just
pencils a bit better yeah butreally cool technology too like
when we were going over likerealist
ca and how they're meshing thattogether And you can just look up
(04:59):
active listings and what you canput on those sites, like a
fourplex.
And then you can pick a design
from the Fast Track program.
Yeah.
And then you can pick Crazy.
Like super, super cool stuff.
Yeah.
Like five years ago, this would
have never been something we spokeabout.
But yeah, they've got some awesomestuff.
So sign up for their newsletter,come to some of their events.
(05:21):
I think Al said, you know, likelythey'll do another event in the
fall, but we'll keep it.
There's one day course, middle
school.
This is a very interesting
episode.
He has a lot of good things to
say.
Yeah, wicked guy.
All right, guys, this episode,like every other episode, is
sponsored by Century 21 InsuranceRealty, Best Brokerage in Kelowna,
and North Okanagan, SouthOkanagan.
all around the interior of BC.
If you're an agent looking for a
(05:41):
switch, or if you're a buyer orseller looking for an agent, give
us a call.
We'd love to talk to you.
Enjoy the episode, guys.
All right, Al.
So great to have you on the show,man.
I met you about eight months agoat one of your presentations and
thought you were doing some greatwork.
So we've been trying to get you onthe show for ages now.
So I appreciate you making timefor us.
Yeah, no, I really appreciate youguys asking me to come through.
(06:03):
This is great.
So maybe we can just start like
quick high level elevator pitch ofyourself and Middle, the company
you guys are expanding quiterapidly throughout Canada.
So I guess we met at our firstannual middle school here in the
city of Kelowna.
I guess we met at our first annual
middle school here in the city ofKelowna.
We've now done middle school.
in seven different cities, I think
we're up to over 1000 attendeesacross the country.
And historically, like I was areal estate agent, I graduated
from the University of Calgary,but I decided to get my real
(06:25):
estate license like when I was 18.
So right out of high school.
And so I went and got my realestate license.
I decided I still want to go touniversity because no one in my
family had a university degree.
And I was like, I'm going to be
the first.
I went and kind of, yeah, it was a
business school.
And it was tough because like my
family is all entrepreneurs.
My brothers were doing stuff.
(06:46):
My brother is the reason why I gotmy real estate license.
I basically like sat open housesthe entire time that I was in
university and basically got paidlike cash because no realtors
wanted to sit open houses, butthey wanted their clients to know
they had open houses.
And so I basically like have
signs.
back of my car that were like the
stock brokerage signs and wouldsettle open houses in like every
community.
And I would get to study because,
you know, back then, like no onewas buying from an open house and
we'd get like five people out.
(07:08):
But the cool thing for me is I
just like learned a bunch aboutcommunities, fabrics.
I would go literally anywhere inthe entire city of Calgary if I
was going to get paid to sit theopen house.
I never sold a single house inuniversity, but I sat a lot of
open houses.
And so it was like a crazy thing,
but I learned a ton and youlearned a lot about communities,
what was happening.
happening, transformation, new
(07:28):
builds, like new growthcommunities.
And I just really got anunderstanding of like what was
happening in the city.
And so when I graduated, I like
immediately thought, okay, well, Ineed to pay for my degree.
I went and got a job downtown.
I got a suit, a briefcase.
And like for like three weeks, Iwent through a training program
and I was like, I'm not doingthis.
And so I quit.
And I remember the guy being like,
you know, it's crappy that youdecided three weeks after rather
than a week.
(07:49):
Cause I guess like the training
program, they say costs $30 ,000.
I was like, Oh, I'm so.
Sorry.
Like, like I didn't learn anything
from you to go execute.
It was just like really good for
me to realize like I don't belonghere.
And so I asked my brother if hewould start an inner city building
company with me because I saw themarket was shifting and I thought
there was a need for thingshappening in the redevelopment.
And so that was kind of my journeyof getting into development.
(08:11):
So I've been in real estate for avery long time.
I was building infill houses,primarily like semi -detached,
tearing down older, you know,wartime bungalows, building
duplexes.
But then in 2015, we saw this kind
of like inflection point.
So I've been doing it since like
2007.
In 2015, prices like had doubled,
tripled.
The biggest house we built was
like a 3 -boy -2 million dollarsingle family and triple car
garage home in like a reallybeautiful area of the city.
And I think like the market inCalgary was always so boom and
(08:32):
bust.
There was tons of volatility.
But in 2015, my mom had passedaway and my dad was living in the
suburbs.
And we thought, okay, well, it's
kind of crappy for my dad to be byhimself and 20, 30 minutes away,
let's bring him into the innercity.
At the time, the only project thatseemed to make sense for us to
build was a duplex, which was waytoo big for my dad.
And so we were kind of like,should we go and see if we could
(08:57):
build four units?Because there was four units
across the street.
Everyone I talked to was like,
can't do that.
It doesn't work like that.
You can do whatever you want, butyou're not going to get approved.
And I was like, yeah, but it justdoesn't make sense.
Why can't you build townhomes on asite that right across the street?
On all four corners, there'stownhomes.
But for some reason, this street,you can't build a townhome.
Three corners had townhomes.
and And so hired a guy who was
like willing to do it with us.
(09:19):
We got rejected.
Like the city said, no, we wentthrough a process called Calgary
Planning Commission.
They also said no. And they're
like, there's no point for you togo to council.
You got two out of threerejections.
You're just going to get a thirdrejection.
I thought, well, pot committed atthis point, might as well go.
And we went and council debatedfor like seven hours for us to go
from what was allowed to be twounits to try to get to four units.
And we ended up losing because anew counselor just got elected,
got scared last minute and votedno, eight, seven.
And so that was like a hugeinflection point.
(09:40):
Like it was crappy that thathappened, but it also like, I got
calls from the chief urbanplanner.
I didn't even know there was arole on the chief urban planner at
the time.
I got to know what urban planning
was.
They basically pulled me in to be
like, so what were you trying todo?
I'm like, it's pretty simple.
We thought that we could try to do
more than two units on these lotsbecause you could still build
townhomes just like you alreadyallow in certain neighborhoods and
(10:01):
certain very remote pockets.
City agreed, created a new zoning
district, brought us in on theengagement.
We knew it was going to happen.
So in 2015, we went out and bought
like 30 of these lots, raised thecapital fund to go out and
basically execute on middlehousing now and move our entire
infill, what was a side -by -sideprogram to saying, let's do four
units.
We went on to do like, I think
from 2015 until, I don't know, wewere like 95 % of the city's
(10:22):
applications on that zoning codebecause no one had really caught
on that it was working.
I think we probably had built 150
units in that kind of row house.
And then, you know, 2020 COVID
pandemic happens.
We had so many of these townhomes
for sale.
We were competing with each other
because there was no otherproduct.
So people would go to two of ourhouses in different neighborhoods.
And so we just realized that wehad like really... probably
produce too many too fast.
(10:42):
But then, you know, there was this
big push for rental housing andMLI Select at the time was called
Flex.
There was almost like a loophole,
like you've stumbled into thisthing backwards, where when they
wrote the Roadhouse District, theyhad permitted you to actually have
secondary suites, which no onereally understood that it was a
market or could work or was aviable option.
And so we kind of like had thisproject.
(11:04):
We sat on it for two years payinglike a MES lending like loan.
We had approved BP, but we justdidn't want to put four more
townhomes of like 650 grand, 700into a market that wasn't moving.
So we held it and like lost moneyevery single month.
I'm talking like five grand amonth in mortgage payments in this
way.
Held it for like over two years.
And then we were just like, whatif we just like scrap that project
(11:24):
and added secondary suites andbuilt this thing as a rental?
And then we figured out that if weget a construction loan, we could
do a select takeout.
And then from that point, again,
like another huge inflection pointfor our development company,
because we learned that there wasa huge demand for rental at the
time, because not everyone couldget qualified for purchasing.
And then, you know, RoundSquarewas a company that we had built
(11:46):
this whole time has reallytransitioned into this purpose
built rental model.
We have, you know, 160 active
units.
that we're building in the
townhome space.
But I would say the thing about
the townhome stuff is like whenyou start to pioneer and do things
really well, you get pulled intoso many different directions.
And so we went on to do like a 220unit heritage restoration, seven
-story building in Winnipeg.
We did a medical center in
(12:07):
Calgary.
We've done a rooftop garden
building with like 20 units.
And so we went on and did a bunch
of things all the way fromcommercial to mixed -use heritage
restoration, seven -story, six-story buildings.
And I would say all of that torealize like...
The thing that we were doing thatwe were pioneering on that we
recognized was this kind of gentledensity.
There's REITs and pension fundsand really well -capitalized folks
that do six -story, seven -story,12, 15 really well.
We learned real quick, you have tohave a lot of money.
(12:29):
You have to compete at a highlevel.
There's really no room for errorsbecause the budgets are so
massive.
The complexities are extensive.
It's not as easy as everyonethinks.
And so we went back and I thinkjust after the pandemic...
Basically said, we're not going todo any more kind of underground
park aid structures, high rise,mid rise.
We're going to double down onmiddle housing.
And so we launched another fundand Brown Square was actively
doing 160 units.
And at that time, still very
(12:52):
involved in the city and veryinvolved in advocacy and moving
things along.
But the city of Calgary had voted
to make it as of right.
And so, you know, when that
happened, everything changed.
And just for like, I think there
was like 3000 applications forthis housing form, you know,
within a given year.
So you can see the uptake was
massive.
And so it was great.
Another inflection point formyself was like, my brother
(13:13):
doesn't really need me in thedevelopment company proper
anymore, because it's really asystem.
It's a process.
Land use is in place.
There's not a lot of like...
change and pioneering and things
happening.
And I met my partner, Darlene, who
I've worked with before.
She was a planning consultant at
Urban Planner.
She was the vice president of
Basecamp Developments, had tons ofexperience in development.
And I said, Dar, I think there waslike this missing ecosystem that
(13:36):
exists of people understandingwhat the opportunity is in middle
housing.
And we basically just asked
ourselves the question of like,what would it actually require to
scale this across Canada?It's difficult for any one company
to scale, which is also why it'sreally awesome.
Because a pension fund or REIT, alarge development company, it's
hard for them to go out andacquire 50 homeowners' homes and
then assemble building teams thatwant to build at these small
(13:57):
scales.
There hits this point where if you
start to produce too many units,you lose the ability to actually
do this housing form well, whichmakes it really beautiful because
it's not like craft beer, right?As soon as you go into
distribution, you change it.
But when you're a local taproom
servicing a market, you can doreally well.
As soon as you go intodistribution, it changes.
And that's the thing about middlehousing.
(14:17):
It's like what was successful wasa bunch of us small folks in
community that were doing reallywell.
The challenge was, is there was noplaybook.
There was no understanding of howto do it.
And the biggest thing that werealized was that the person that
is most equipped to do middlehousing really well is the
homeowner because they have theland at a land basis that none of
us could acquire it for.
And so we kind of just tried to re
(14:39):
-engineer the system to say, whatif we put them at the center of
the solution?And so much of the work we do at
middle is working withmunicipalities, working with
government, working withhomeowners.
to not only build the foundationalinformation education, but to
unite the ecosystem and figure outhow to get homeowners to be a part
of the solution.
And folks will always be like, oh,
you're never going to geteverybody to redevelop their home.
(14:59):
And it's like, well, that's reallynot the point.
The point is to make sure theyunderstand what the potential and
opportunities are, but also theecosystem and folks around them in
the industry have the ability tosupport that homeowner or embark
on doing that as well.
And so that's the journey we've
been on.
And it's been cool, man.
Like we've been embraced by somany different groups, I would say
across the country, not onlycities, like building groups, ULI,
like different groups who've beenreally strongly supportive of the
(15:22):
work that we're doing and tryingto achieve.
And so we see ourselves as likecapacity builders.
We're working on, you know,innovative policy here in Kelowna.
We helped launch the first versionof the fast track.
They're launching phase two.
which gets you a building permit
within 10 business days.
We use GIS mapping technology to
identify which one of those sitesbasically met the requirements for
those pre -approved lands.
And so again, reducing the
barriers, providing consistencyaround cost, architecture, who can
build it for what, what can Ibuild on my house?
(15:44):
So just really trying to simplifythose things.
And I know the GIS tool for us isreally cool because...
You now type in an address andit'll tell you whether or not you
can develop on your home and whatyou could develop.
So what used to take us likewaiting for an architect to do a
site plan test, pulling theaddress, trying to check the
zoning constraints.
We've now reduced that friction to
like it takes a minute to identifyat a high level whether or not
(16:08):
that place makes sense.
We're launching a Realtor
integration now too.
So with Realtor
ca, type in the address and it'lltell you whether or not that site
is actively listed.
But we've also done a scrape so
you can look at a city and say,okay, these are all the active
listings that meet the requirementfor a middle housing project.
Whoa, that's pretty cool.
Yeah, it's a lot.
Sorry, I know I just ranted there,but to give everyone a bit of
(16:30):
level sets of all the differentthings we're working on.
Yeah, that's awesome.
With that software, is that
specifically through your guys'like website or how do people
access it?If you go to our website, you go
to our website, we have acommunity and within that
community, there's what's calledthe middle GIS tool.
We also have a Performa tool, butthe middle GIS tool is currently
(16:50):
beta in Calgary and Kelowna.
And so you can type in your
address and test it.
In Calgary currently, there is no
pre -approved plans, but our goalis working with every municipality
to have a site that has a pre-approved plan.
And our future state is like,okay, well, we know these pre
-approved plans.
We know that the land that they
sit on, we understand the risks.
What we envision in the future is
(17:11):
like we have contractors that knowhow to build these or modular
developers that know how to buildthem.
Can we then like have someone runtheir performa, fill out a finance
tool and basically get them alltheir components that they need to
basically say, okay, I do have aviable project now and I can move
forward with it.
And so that's exactly what we're
trying to do is take all thethings that we've learned.
(17:32):
empowered by technology to givepeople that leg up on their
ability to deliver on theirprojects.
Okay.
So just to bring it back to
Kelowna, so your website, if youwant the GIS tool, you can type in
your address and it'll tell youwhat you can do.
And then you can pick a pre-approved plan there.
Correct.
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
So currently Colonna has three
approved plans.
They're launching another number
of them.
And so the idea is like we would
(17:53):
have all the pre -approved planslisted.
We haven't quite gotten to thepoint where we started to put all
of the contractors and architectson the website, but that's the
future state.
We're still early days with the
tool.
And honestly, we're taking a bunch
of feedback and getting people tokind of tell us what works, what
doesn't.
And again, like...
So, you know, Taylor and I met atmiddle school.
That was a full day.
We actually are launching a
program.
It's called Middle U. It's in
(18:15):
partnership with the University ofCalgary.
It's going to be all online.
And the idea is like, how do we
actually get people throughscenario modeling through the
emotional roller coasters ofbuilding, you know, a place?
And so that is a certified coursethrough the University of Calgary.
And our hope is that.
You know, we bring people through
a certificate of middle housingthat they've taken this course.
They have strong fundamentals.
It's 100 hours of instructional
delivery.
(18:35):
And then we tie that in the
future.
to hopefully a funding mechanism
and a tool that can help youactually deliver on your project.
And so, you know, in a high level,we see ourselves as like a venture
fund, a venture scale for middlehousing.
How do we scale fund?And depending on the level of
support you might need or mightnot need, some people just like,
they need to go right to differentlevels.
And we're just trying to basicallybe that support tool for those
levels that they're at.
(18:55):
That's awesome.
So in Kelowna is like a test spotfor you guys to get all this
started.
Yeah.
So Kelowna is like one of the mostprogressive, I would say like.
infill policies in Canada, like,you know, very, very progressive
administrative board that wants tosee things happen from a city
perspective.
And I think they've been exploring
different tools and they've beenon kind of the cutting edge of a
lot of this.
I would say that the challenges in
(19:16):
Kelowna are unique, you know, tothe city of like your guys' real
estate market, which you probablyknow better than I do.
How do we actually get things topencil today based on the market
that we find ourselves in?And so I think that's what we're
continuing to run up against.
It's like we can do a bunch of
things, but there's some macrolevel environment things that have
to change in order for us to seeproject viability.
(19:37):
And this is where I go back to thevery first thing I said to you.
If you're a homeowner, you'rebetter positioned than any other
developer in the industry todeliver on your home because you
purchased your land 10, 20, 15years ago.
And so we know that there'sviability if homeowners can be a
part of the solution.
They're not going to be able to do
it by themselves.
There's going to be developers and
(19:59):
builders that partner with them.
What we're trying to do is create
the infrastructure to allow forthose things to happen, for
homeowners to feel like they'reeducated, they know what they need
to get done, provide a bit of afacilitation support to bring the
industry together and make surethe right policy and there's
innovative tools to help them movethrough that journey.
And you're not.
you're not.
competing now, right?Like you're not an infill
developer, like you are simply onthe education side, basically.
100%.
Like I know a lot of folks are
(20:20):
like nervous to kind of share withus at times when we get an
industry, but it's like, no, ourgoal is not to be the delivery
mechanism.
It's to take homeowners and pair
them with delivery mechanisms.
It's to help delivery folks,
developers find the right piecesof land so that they can do the
right things and design highfunctioning places that make sense
for the community and people arehappy.
And so we see ourselves ascapacity.
(20:40):
builders.
We're trying to support you on
your goals and delivery.
And most importantly, I would say
the thing that we realize is thatif we don't include homeowners,
you'll never get to scale what youwant to do because they'll always
be pushed back.
And because politicians and
administration and cities willalways feel like if homeowners
aren't a part of the solution ornot a part of the equation, then
we'll continue to struggle todeliver within these established
communities because they werethere.
(21:00):
We need to figure out how toinclude them.
And so that's the way that we seeit.
We're trying to basically say...
We're simplifying the process so
that an everyday citizen can dothis.
And if we do that, it's only goingto help developers because their
processes are going to be morepredictable, more efficient to
move through the system.
Amazing.
Can we do like a shared screen andyou can walk us through briefly on
(21:21):
like a real life scenario, whetherit's Kelowna or Calgary or
anywhere, but just...
How do the numbers work?
Maybe touch on financing and landacquisition and stuff?
I don't have anything to pull upat the moment, but I can walk you
through what we're seeing work incertain neighborhoods and cities.
I guess I'll start by saying inCalgary and Edmonton, again, two
of the most progressive citieswhen you talk about infill and
middle housing specifically.
So in the city of Calgary, this is
(21:42):
not advice that I'll go buysomething and then say, hey, I
listened to your podcast and yousaid it'd be fine.
Anyway, call me before you buyanything.
But for the vast majority of thecity within the established
neighborhood, hoods, most lotsyou're allowed to do eight units
as of right.
So on a standard 50 by 126 ,000
square foot lot, you can deliverup to eight units.
Eight units.
Yeah.
So four primary units and foursecondary suites.
(22:03):
And so the most common forms thatyou would see.
getting delivered would be a fourby four.
So you'd have on a corner lot,four row houses with four
secondary suites.
And then on a mid block lot, you'd
kind of have this cottage court ofa duplex in the front, a duplex in
the back, and both duplexes wouldhave secondary suites.
Most of Alberta has laneways.
So everything's parked off the
lane, which I know is notnecessarily the case in Kelowna.
(22:25):
And so that's been the thingthat's really drove in the system,
I'd say the last three years.
And most of the people that are
building those.
When we started back in 15, it was
all sale.
There was a transition after the
pandemic where a lot of this wentrental.
And the reason why it went rentalis because a lot of folks were
using the CMHC MLI Select program,which I'm sure it's the hottest
thing on the market now becauseeveryone says, you can own this
(22:47):
place for 5 % down.
And I think it's just like a hot
tagline.
I would say it's not that easy.
We tell everyone that.
And if you have 5 % down and
you're trying to do a $3 millionproject, you can't do it.
You don't just need 150 grand.
significantly more complex and
nuanced.
And it's only gotten more
difficult to deliver.
And so I would say we're starting
to see the pendulum maybe shiftback to where folks are now
(23:09):
considering to do more sale, notjust rental.
Have you had any pushback fromneighbors about like eight units
on their formerly one house lot?100%.
Like this is the thing thatEdmonton and Calgary and every
city across North America isfacing is like, we were
traditionally single family homes.
And now we're putting in, you
know, eight units as of right.
And so It definitely has been
controversial.
There's like a fine balance.
So we've seen really greatexamples where eight units kind
of... seamlessly integrate intothese communities you have to
(23:32):
realize like people think thecontext of these communities are
wartime bungalows but they're notbecause they've always been
evolving so there's semi -detachedhomes there's like huge single
family homes that are threestories that look like they could
be eight units and so we've seensome really interesting like
contexts where they fit and theyfit in a way that has made sense i
would just say to you that likethe reason why middle like has
(23:52):
really taken this solution that wehave to be homeowner centric is
because we understand that likethere's homeowners in community
that feel like this is happeningto them not for them or with them
like as a developer i realizedthat that was the case because
it's not like i was sitting hereoverly concerned about what was
happening in their communitybecause you have a million other
things that you're concernedabout.
Like, are you going to be able tobuild on cost, on time, on budget?
(24:15):
What is the cost implications ifyou don't or you miss?
And so I would just say like allof those things are really, really
critical.
And it's not as simple as just
saying like, oh, we're justconcerned about the community
engagement piece.
yeah it is no question a challenge
and this is like a really goodexample for folks who get you know
really concerned about like whatdoes this look like so from the
street this looks like you know aduplex and next to you know a
single family home and infill butit's actually six units because
(24:39):
it's got two secondary suites andit's got two laneways And so this
is six units on what was typicallya single family home.
have to What size lot is that?Is that like a 120 by?
Yeah, 50, 50 foot frontage.
Yeah, so 6 ,000 square feet with a
lane loaded kind of backyard.
That is one of the pre -approved
plants that we're working on rightnow with the city of Calgary, city
(25:00):
of Edmonton to kind of make it sothose things can get built as of
right.
Community concerns are valid in
our mind and there's a lot ofthings we can do to help mitigate
them.
And I think one of the biggest
challenges we're having.
is that when examples don't land
strong, like when you haveexamples that are landing poorly
in community, it's reallychallenging.
(25:20):
And so how do we figure out a wayto create better built forms that
land in community?And one of the ways we think we
can do that is by working with,you know.
the city the community andhonestly at times even higher
caliber designers of architectswho can't make it feasible to work
on 150 by 120 but can potentiallymake it work to work on one that
could be replicated in manydifferent communities i'm going to
(25:42):
pull up the gis tool too eventhough it's in beta just for you
guys Take a peek at here as well.
So this is the map.
This is in Calgary.
You type in an address.
It'll tell you kind of a bunch ofdetails about the actual, you
know, address that you see.
And then obviously, you know, you
can look at the context of what'saround there.
And so here's an example of likeyou're on a corner site.
(26:03):
One of the best use cases on acorner site is what we call a 4x4.
So you see the rendering.
This is done by an architect group
called FAS.
And so, you know, it shows you
what it could look like.
And then, you know, maybe not as
conducive for a mid -blockconfiguration, but this is what a
mid -block configuration is.
integration.
And I would say like a lot ofthese are no's, but they could be
yeses.
(26:23):
I just wanted to kind of show you
high level what the site is kindof looking like and how we're
doing it.
That's pretty cool.
It just says this will work.
These two won't.
That's pretty cool.
That is very cool.
What normally would happen here islike you would have realtor
ca linked.
normally would happen here is like
you would have realtor ca linked.
And so now it would highlightwhatever ones that were listed in
(26:44):
that community now would be onhere.
And it would tell you whether ornot it was a green or red and you
could click on that.
That's awesome.
So I guess basically like oncethis is up and running, is it
primarily built for investors thento look for active listings?
And then what's a possibility tobuild on that?
I would say it's built for likeall three.
would say it's built for like allthree.
If you think about like the threecustomers that we tend to
(27:07):
interfere with.
face a lot with is like government
municipalities like what do theyknow is possible on the lands that
they have how do they createbetter systems and processes so
that everyone in community knowswhat's possible because one of the
challenges we have is like whenyou have someone that's
unsophisticated doing this for thefirst time submitting applications
and then getting kicked back andkicked back and delayed it's
(27:27):
problematic for everybody citiesdon't make more money when you
have bad applicants, right?Because they pay the same price.
It's not like you pay less ifyou're a shitty applicant and you
have to resubmit your plans 14times and you have to talk to the
planner 30 times.
Like that's actually cumbersome
for the municipalities.
And so how do we streamline
processes for municipalities andget to better outcomes?
The citizen often don't know whatthey can do and neither does the
realtor, quite frankly, at timesbecause they're not development
(27:48):
experts.
So that's smart.
Yeah, no, like, I mean, it's not abad thing, but it's a good thing.
It's like, how do we get therealtor?
We see realtors.
coming to all of our programming.
And I love having conversationsbecause they recognize that not
only is this important for them tounderstand their markets, it's
important for their clients.
So we've had realtors now that
send their clients to us beforethey decide whether or not they
want to sell, buy, develop.
Because I think the thing that I
love most about realtors now is alot of them are not short
(28:10):
-sighted.
They're not just looking for a one
-time commission.
They recognize that referral, that
word about that maybe this guywill go on to buy three or this
one will go on to buy two or fouror they'll be... a developer and
i'll be the person that sellsthose products or helps and buys
them so they have this like desireto learn more and i think like
that is the gap that we're fillingis like i didn't know where we
would have went back in the daywhen we did this we just learned
by mistakes and i think we have somuch information and we have a
(28:32):
process and now we're leveragingtechnology to make it easier for
more people to understand what theopportunities are specific to
colonna i mean obviously i feelthis works to colonna i mean
obviously i feel this works betterin Alberta, and you can correct me
if I'm wrong, but Kelowna landprices are pretty expensive,
right?So if someone wants to go and buy
a $800 ,000, $900 ,000 house totear it down and do infill, do the
numbers still work here as aninvestment?
Or is this primarily like...
Hey, I'm a current homeowner.
(28:53):
I've owned this house for 10years.
However, I want to make it more oflike a generational living.
You know, I want to bring myparents in or somewhere for my
kids to live on a separatedwelling plus some rental income.
Like, are you seeing moreopportunity on homeowners wanting
to build four units to have alittle bit of revenue income and
provide housing for family aswell?
Or like, where does this fit bestKelowna specific?
(29:15):
Yeah.
You know, what's funny is like, so
two things I would say likecolonists in like a bit of a real
estate, it feels like a bit of alull here, like in terms of sales
and volumes and historicallycompared to where you typically
have been, I think there's somelows that have been, but then it
seems to kind of swing.
Like you kind of have these years
or months that come by and it'shigh again.
(29:35):
And so.
I think, no question, the
homeowner -centric model makes aton of sense.
There's viability in it.
How do we bring more homeowners
through the process?From an investor standpoint, on
the purpose -built rental side,it's tough, right?
Because you're right.
The land prices are a million
bucks.
You're trying to build six units,
and then there's an affordabilityrequirement that two of those six
have to be at 30 % of the medianif you're going to go after the
rental model with CMHC.
(29:57):
There are use cases right now,
though, where we've seen peoplemake the numbers make sense and
work through it.
So there's a part of the folks
that are... active right now thatare delivering these.
What I would say is the city isactively working on reducing some
of the barriers and costs, whetherit be DCC fees, off -site
improvements, Fortis improvements,and also funding potential models
that exist that make this moreviable.
I also think the sale numbers canmake sense in Kelowna, maybe not
so much a rental market, but thisidea of, okay, if I was to build
(30:19):
these units and sell them, howwould they perform?
I think there's probably more usecases for sale than... there is
rental.
And I think rental can work, but
your expectations would have to betempered.
We tell everyone this CMHC, likeeveryone thinks they're going to
get rich quick.
It's not like that.
It's a 50 year amortization with a10 year requirement on the
affordable piece.
And so if you're doing this to
make a ton of money in a shortamount of time, it's not the tool
for you.
(30:40):
What I think is interesting about
Kelowna is the type of producttypology that's missing.
So this idea of three bedroomfamily oriented at home, I think
there's a lot of room for, I thinkif you're building, you know,
Stuff that's going to compete witha fairly robust condo market,
rental market in the apartmentside, it's going to be tough.
And so there's room for sure, butit's got to be in the housing
diversity and options that you'rebuilding.
(31:00):
So you mentioned earlier aboutmodular.
So you mentioned earlier aboutmodular.
So is modular a solution for someof this?
Yeah, yeah.
So a few of the pre -improved
plans that were designed wereactually modular ready.
And so they were fully... designedso that you can deliver modularly
what i would say is like again thesame complexities and limitations
right like there's not a lot ofpeople that have done modular
especially at the infill scale butthen also like what are the
(31:20):
complexities that come along withit but then what are the
limitations so you get outside oflike there's not a lot of
customization that can happen inthese things and so You get this
huge efficiency in terms oftimeline.
You get some cost efficiencies.
Sometimes it's even at par.
But the challenge today is likethere's this gap for modular where
if you're going to provide modularconstruction, who funds like the
building of those?Generally speaking, when you're
doing construction draws, you getdraws based on how far you've
(31:41):
gotten on site.
Traditionally, banks don't fund
mods that are being built in afactory until they arrive at site.
But factories need 100 % paymentonce those things leave factory.
There's a huge funding gap thathasn't quite been solved about who
deals with that portion of thefunding.
Interesting.
I haven't heard that.
funding.
Interesting.
I haven't heard that.
That's interesting.
It's a good point.
When you hear about modular and
you hear about this, to me, itjust makes so much sense.
(32:02):
And I just don't understand why wedon't see it.
At all.
I guess that answers a bit why.
Modular factories are good atproducing modular homes.
They're not necessarily good atthe last mile logistics of on
-site construction, delivery andplacement.
And so if you're a modular factoryand you're staying in your own
lane and you can produce thesehomes.
Someone's got to deal with thetransportation, trucking, and
(32:23):
logistics.
And then someone else has to deal
with the onsites.
And so if you go to a general GC
and say, a general contractor, Ineed you to do all my service
hookups, landscaping, foundations,but that's it.
You're taking away like 70 % oftheir scope.
Why would a GC want to only dothat part of the scope and not the
rest?And so what we're finding is like
there isn't enough people who arejust experts in delivery of
modular because it's never reallycaught on at scale.
(32:45):
And so part of what I think weneed to see is a bit of an
upscaling.
of what that last module logistics
looks like.
Opportunity.
Anyone listening.
You know, it's funny.
We did have Ryan Smith on fromCity of Kelowna.
Yeah, a few episodes ago.
And we were kind of speaking about
some of this as well.
But to stay on like the funding
point that there's that bit of agap there.
It's similar to, you know, if ahomeowner owns their home, but
(33:05):
they can't qualify for like theequity takeout to start this
process.
It seems like you guys are way
ahead of the curve on everythingelse.
And kind of you're working withthe government as well.
Do you see anything coming downthe pipeline that would help
facilitate, like a homeowner hastheir property, they have a bunch
of equity, but they have noincome, so they can't
conventionally qualify for amortgage.
Are there any programs that arecoming down the pipe to help them
(33:26):
do some of these infill projects?Like if that's the barrier for
them right now?I think there's been a lot of
conversation around this idea ofbeing cash core, think there's
been a lot of conversation aroundthis idea of being cash core, but
house rich, right?Like if you think about our
boomers are historically the onewho bought it.
There's a ton of people like that.
it. There's a ton of people like
(33:46):
that.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so we've done a lot ofnetworking exercises.
We've done surveys and intakes tounderstand what is that capital
stack barrier that we need to getthem to a project.
And then even once you get them tothe project, what is the approval
requirements to actually proceedforward with the development?
I think there's a model there, noquestion.
(34:10):
I think the question is, is how doyou shore up the risk, right?
Because there's an equity stackrisk that needs to be shored up
for whoever funds that initialequity stack.
But also like, this is the thingthat I think is going to take time
and it's not going to happenovernight.
A homeowner who lives in thecommunity, for them to think that
a boomer is going to become adeveloper, it's a hard thing,
right?You're going to go out and take on
(34:30):
a $3 million construction projectwhen you've never done any of this
before, and you've got to go livesomewhere for, let's call it, 12
months.
And you're retired.
Yeah.
So what I would say to you is that
person is showing up with us insmall amounts, but when they do
show up, it's generally with theirkids.
Like their kids are youngprofessionals who need homes, who
(34:50):
are renting and who are likeunderstanding that this is an
opportunity for them now.
And so you kind of need that
community.
Like it takes a village.
And I would say the financingpiece is one part, but then the
actual cultural risk aversionpiece is just a whole nother layer
that we're trying to unpack.
part of it is like they don't know
what they don't know.
And so if we don't have a
(35:12):
foundation of education orinformation or understanding the
process, if we don't have goodexamples of people who have moved
through the system, that could bethose early adopters who have
successfully done it.
None of this matters.
And so I would say those first fewin community are going to be
absolutely critical, not only todo well for those people who
embark on this, but to land well.
And the people that can do it
(35:34):
right now are the developers,right?
Are the realtors, are theinvestors, are the folks who are
savvy.
And what we... need to do a better
job at is I think making surethose projects are landing well in
community so that we can work withhomeowners eventually in
communities, the citizens andcities to actually allow for this
to happen at a more robust,scalable way.
going to go Yeah, totally.
Totally.
And I guess if someone isinterested, what does it look like
to work with you guys?Like, what's the cost?
(35:57):
I know you're talking about like,you know, the 100 hour course, you
put on some of these daily things.
I think some of the cost is
potentially subsidized by thecity, which is great.
But yeah, can you walk us throughwhat it looks like if someone
wants to work with you?We kind of have a suite of product
tools that we built as a way tokind of help folks through
navigating the system.
So our middle school.
Depending on the municipality, ifwe have a partnership or not,
anywhere from like $100 to $350,$500 for the full day.
And so that you spend a full day.
(36:18):
We bring in experts from every
field to come in and chat.
We have a networking event.
Oftentimes, we'll have a walkingtour depending on the community
that we're in.
But it's essentially like giving
you as much information as we canin kind of a boot camp style one
-day event.
And then after that, we've
launched Middle U, which we'lllaunch in the fall.
That program is going to be kindof in that $3 ,000 range.
(36:41):
for 100 hours of instructionalhours with a certification at the
end.
Again, there'll be some
opportunities, we're hoping, wherethat's subsidized and funded,
depending on where you're comingfrom or the groups that we get to
fund that program.
But after that, let's say you're
moving through and you have a reallive project and you want to move.
We launched two programs inearnest as a response to the
education.
One of them was called our
(37:03):
Accelerator.
So we have over 70 experts from
across Canada that have all workedin the middle housing space.
developers, accountants, lawyers,surveyors, like...
Just builders, anyone you canthink of who have basically said
they're willing to donate theirtime and sit down with people for
an hour to learn and give theminformation and feedback on their
project.
It's an hourly rate.
We pay those folks.
That's a program where we're still
retooling, but we think isincredibly powerful.
So the accelerator is a great wayfor someone to say, I want to talk
(37:28):
to this person about financingbecause I need to know if I can do
this.
Or I want to talk to this person
about building within thisspecific jurisdiction.
That's a tool that we have on ourwebsite.
The next one that we have is kindof our master's program.
And I would say that this one,we're refining two levels of
master.
One is like, we meet with you once
a month.
You bring anything you want to go
(37:48):
over.
We go over that on your project.
It's kind of an opportunity foryou to have another set of eyes to
ask questions because often it'slonely.
Like you don't know who has yourbest interest.
You have an architect, you have abuilder, but everyone's getting
paid to do something and deliverfor you.
And oftentimes you don't know ifthat's the best thing.
And so that I remember, you know,in my journey, that would happen
all the time.
Contractor said he could build
(38:09):
something.
Designer said that it was
feasible.
And then you get to go do it.
And they're like, oh yeah, no, no,we didn't know that it would be
that much.
And it's like, it's triple the
price that you both told me.
I could deliver this for.
And so we try to add as likeanother set of eyes, oftentimes on
larger projects, like folks willhire what's called like an owner's
rep.
And that's like for folks to have
(38:31):
someone on the ground on largeprojects to basically represent
their interests.
We're trying to do this in a
little bit of an augmented way onsmaller scale projects to bring
all the expertise.
And so that's kind of like a
coaching, a one hour session thatwe do monthly with folks.
We've launched another program,which is basically like a tool
that we're currently buildingwhere it's an augmented
development.
management tool where we build
this interface.
And the hope of that interface is
to basically work with you on amore consistent weekly basis where
you're still going to need abuilder, probably maybe a
(38:53):
developer, or you're still goingto need all those pieces, but
we're building a framework toolthat allows you to interface with
us, track your developments.
We're trying to like outline every
single step that needs to be done,almost give you like a digital
dashboard where, you know, it'sgoing to be as valuable as you
make it based on the informationthat you put in.
Again, this is something thatwe've been contemplating.
contemplating.
We have two customers right now
(39:15):
that are kind of in that moreadvanced program.
We've also funded a fewdemonstration projects based on
what you just talked about,Taylor, this idea of we were to
fund that capital stack portion ona few projects, would that unlock
a few projects?And so we're funding a first time
homeowner right now who had acapital stack gap to help them get
over the finish line.
Cool.
That is pretty awesome.
We had Steven Jagger from Addy
(39:36):
come on as well.
I know he was, I don't know if he
was working with you guys or not,but he... did start one of the
first fast track programs inKelowna to try and facilitate some
of this.
So it'd be interesting to see if
they get into funding some ofthese as well, like some
crowdfunding.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We launched one of our projects on
(39:57):
Addy as a crowdfunding project.
We raised, I think it was 150 ,000
through Addy on a demonstrationproject.
I love what those guys are after.
I think there's a lot of room in
that idea of like, you know, forcommunity by community, if you
could kind of get a bunch ofpeople behind the program, what I
would say about Addy is like,still so complex and nuanced.
And there's so much money thatneeds to be paid before you even
know whether or not you're goingto have a successful project.
(40:17):
And so for me, it's like we haveto find a better way to move
through that system because we'repretty sophisticated in terms of
our development, our understandingof legal contracts, what's
required.
And I would say if we have a tough
time navigating that process, youcan imagine.
a citizen's even going to have atougher time.
And I would say, let alone thecomplexity, even if you get
through the complexities andnavigating that process, why would
you ever fund someone who's neverdone this before?
Like in a market right now wherepeople are fairly nervous about
(40:38):
what's happening, like you want meto fund John, who's never built
anything ever before in his lifeto do his first project.
And so that's where I think we canplay a huge role because it's
like...
No, don't worry.
John's not going to be by himself.
He's powered by middle.
So he'll have, you know, the fullresources and power of our team
behind him to make sure heactually gets through the project.
Yeah.
What was interesting to me when we
first started speaking, it waslike, yeah, like middle housing,
you're focused on infill.
Like that was what I thought, you
(41:00):
know, the company was.
But, you know, after the
presentation and speaking to youafterwards, finding out that, you
know, you guys were supported.
financially by federal grants is
how you're making it so affordableand accessible to people.
To me, it's not like, oh, you guyshave built a company to help with
middle housing.
It's you've built a company to
help that middle education, middleconsulting piece, right?
It's a huge endeavor and it'spretty scary for people to go in
(41:21):
and tear down a house and try andbuild a fourplex.
But if you're able to consult...
on a like small fee because the
government is encouraging you guysand supporting you guys to help
with that.
It's like, go with the flow,
right?Go with the government policy of
if this is what they'resupporting, it's obviously what
they want.
So, you know, after speaking with
you for a while, I was like, It'snot an expensive bill because the
(41:41):
government wants to facilitatethis.
Right.
So, yeah, I appreciate what you
guys are doing in that space.
Yeah, no. And I mean, like I'm an
entrepreneur and I understandwe're not a nonprofit and we're
building, you know, differenttools that we're able to be
profitable on.
But I think none of it matters.
Like when you think about thefunnel, it's not going to matter
if people don't feel like theyhave the foundations of education
and understanding of what it takesto move through it.
(42:04):
So we could build every suite oftool.
We could build a fund.
We could be a development manager.
You could do a bunch.
of different things but none of
that matters if people just don'tknow what they don't know and so i
think like What we went to thegovernment for when we worked with
the housing supply challenge was,you know, they wanted to see
actual movement and housingstarts.
And we said, that's really toughto do if we don't understand what
the knowledge policy barrier gapsare.
(42:25):
And so we kind of identified whatwe thought those gaps were and
started to provide solutions forthose gaps.
And so, like I said, we thinkwe're finding the right
ingredients.
It's unique depending on the
municipality and the framework inwhich you're working with.
working with Regina and Saskatoon,and we've had conversations with
even smaller municipalities,Airdrie, Red Deer, Lethbridge,
very, very small places that arealso very keen to figure out what
it can look like for them to getmore of this housing form built.
(42:46):
So I would just say, Taylor, we'velanded on the fact that there's
consensus that this housing formmatters.
It can be incredibly beneficial tocommunities and cities all across
the country.
How do we prepare them with the
right tool sets, education, andfoundation to deliver on those?
things.
And we were lucky enough to be a
part of the housing supplychallenges, which you're talking
about with the federal government,where we are one of four finalists
(43:07):
across the country.
There was 260 applications and we
advanced as a finalist through theyear in a competition, which made
a huge difference and kind of gaveus that boost to be able to keep
going.
The cool part about it is we're
seeing people come out the otherend now, right?
Like that are developing, that areon their journey, that are doing
it.
(43:27):
And I think the other thing about
us that's been really interestingis like whatever you need in order
to actually deliver is what wewant to give you.
I know there's people on ourcommunity page that like are
lurking, that are active membersthat are watching.
And I'll see them two months downthe road and they'll say, man, I'm
so glad that guy posted thatmessage because I had no idea that
they were doing that.
(43:48):
And I basically went back to my
project and refined it and changedthis.
And it's like, perfect.
Like that's exactly.
Well, what we want to do is wewant to be a resource for where
you are at your journey and makesure if that's interfacing with us
on our socials, on our digitals,coming to the courses, coming to
the networking programs that we'rethrowing.
That's what we're trying to do.
Yeah.
Maybe we'll finish off with that.
(44:10):
With the last question is when's
the next event in Kelowna?Yeah.
Yeah.
So we don't have a date yet booked
for the Kelowna region at themoment.
I would say like we're working onwith the city right now on the
second phase, I guess would belike the third phase of their fast
track.
So I think as that the new plans.
launch and give a bit of diversitybecause i know there was some
(44:32):
feedback on the first set of plansthat launched i think we'll see
more interest but we have plans tohost middle school through the
fall and then also in the fall thelaunch of middle u which would be
open to folks all across canada asi said because it'd be done mostly
online a great opportunity forfolks to kind of get in and learn
the foundations and then also runthrough some use case modeling
(44:53):
awesome all right well we'll seeyou in the fall then definitely
thank you so much for coming onand oh that was awesome think all
right well we'll see you in thefall then definitely thank you so
much for coming on and oh that wasawesome You're doing some crazy
things.
we'll Yeah.
I really appreciate you guyshaving me on.
me on.
Your vision board must just look
insane.
It is.
And I think like, it's funnybecause we talk about that all the
(45:14):
time.
Like most entrepreneurs don't die
from starvation.
They die from like, you know,
indigestion.
And so we're just like trying to
be mindful and stay focused on ourniche and what we do well.
And I think a bit of it is like,what is the thing that we think is
going to make the most meaningfuldifference?
And that's what we're after.
So whatever you're after, you're
after, keep it up.
Doing the right things, dude.
Thanks, man.
All right.
(00:00):
Welcome back to the Colonial Real
Estate Podcast.
Colonial Real Estate Podcast.
I'm your mortgage broker host,Taylor Atkinson.
And I'm your real estate agenthost, I'm your real estate agent
Matt Glenn.
What's happening today, Taylor?
Well, you know, Bank of Canadaannouncement came out July 30th.
Yes.
Pretty boring, you know, as
predicted.
Yeah.
You know, I think six months ago,we spoke to Brandon Ogdensen.
Things were much more optimisticfor rate cuts, but obviously...
Tariffs have been a huge topic ofa conversation.
(00:23):
When those tariffs come in, we seeinflation, core inflation that
obviously has to put Bank ofCanada on pause.
So that trade uncertainty and thenjust like our economy in general,
like we have some pretty weakgrowth signals.
So where we're at with that inSeptember, there's now a 13 %
chance for a 25 basis point cut.
And then in October, there's a 24
(00:44):
% chance.
of the same cut.
And then moving on from that, likeby the end of the year, there's a
50 % chance.
It's not like it's adding up
collectively.
It's just 0 .25%.
It's going to likely happen closerto the end of the year.
the So likely get a 0 .25 cut bythe end of the year.
.25 cut by the end of the year.
(01:06):
Yeah.
And I mean, that obviously changesweekly when, you know, information
comes out about job growth andinflation.
Yeah, exactly.
So it's been hard.
to predict.
It's been evolving.
I think what I take away from thatis if you take tariffs out of the
picture and you take the media outof that, we as economy still need
a little bit of a cut.
It means we are at the lower part
(01:26):
of our rate cycle, but it doesn'tmean we've hit it and we're going
back up.
I'm still optimistic on that.
Right before we went on, Yeah, acut.
we went on, you said somethingsuper interesting about mortgages.
Tell us about that.
So what I've been doing a lot with
clients right now over the lastsix to 12 months, us about that.
So what I've been doing a lot withclients right now over the last
(01:46):
six to 12 months, most people arevery stressed about the decision,
whether they go variable or fixedor a three -year fixed or a five
-year fixed.
Right now, everything's pretty
balanced.
Most of the rates are neck and
neck.
So in terms of being qualified,
most people have the option tochoose whatever they want.
But what most people get fixatedon is they have to choose one or
the other.
You don't have to, you can blend
the two products together.
That is so interesting.
(02:07):
I did not know that.
That's crazy.
Specific to just a couple oflenders.
So if you want, you know, say youhave a $500 ,000 mortgage, you can
put 200 ,000 on a variable, 200,000 on a five -year fix and a
hundred thousand on a three -yearfix.
What?You can do three like that?
Crazy.
Yeah.
You can do up to five.
You can really like.
Pick and choose what you want.
(02:27):
It allows people just to like, you
know, hedge their bets a littlebit.
If they think there are some ratecuts, they can do that.
If they think fixed rates aregoing to drop, you know, they can
put a little more on the variableside and then they can lock that
in in the future.
There's lots of flexibility there.
I guess what I preface to clientsusually is like, you know, hey,
when people set this up, they havegood intentions to then go.
I'm going to watch this like ahawk.
And as soon as rates drop, I'mgoing to lock this in and switch
(02:52):
that.
Yeah.
Let's be honest.
Most people don't.
It's usually like a set it andforget it.
But yeah, it's something that Ithink is not well known about or
people just don't talk about.
Yeah, I didn't know that.
So if you're out there and you'rekind of torn between fixed
variable, five year fixed, threeyear fixed, whatever.
Yeah, reach out.
We can.
This is why we have you on thepod.
the pod.
The one and only reason.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No other reason than that.
that.
Yeah.
We waited for three years to get
(03:13):
this out of you.
Yeah, exactly.
That's great info, honestly,Taylor.
You're probably going to use that,yeah.
So anyways, we'll keep you updatedon this stuff, obviously.
But at this point, pretty boringstuff.
Not a lot's changing.
We'll just kind of watch inflation
and see what happens with tariffs.
But yeah.
Nice.
And then, yeah, today's show is
awesome, man.
We've been trying to connect with
Al from Middle Housing for likesix months.
(03:34):
I went to one of their events inKelowna.
And yeah, they're doing somereally cool stuff.
Primarily like... I see it asmostly education based for people
that want to learn.
Yeah.
Like he's obviously done a ton ofdevelopments himself.
And now he's kind of stepped awayfrom that.
And it's just primarily focusingon educating people.
And like.
Very affordable education courses,
you know, like you can go to oneof their one day events for like
(03:56):
150 bucks.
And I think most of that is
because they're getting subsidizedor, you know, being given grants
federally or from municipalitiesto come and help people because
this is such an obvious solution.
Like, yeah, he's helping people
with infill housing, down there inthe house, building three units or
carriage house or whatever,building more houses.
Yeah.
And it seems like they're using
(04:17):
Kelowna as a testing ground for alot of this stuff, which is super
cool too.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, I think everyoneknows Kelowna has been very
evolved in this space.
They're really like leading in a
municipality and it doesn't justmean like they're focusing on
investors, how to like tear down asingle family house and build a
fourplex.
Like it could be.
(04:38):
a generational house where youwant to bring in a family member
and have some rental revenue yeahlike they focus nationally so i
think on the investment front it'sprobably a little more lucrative
in like alberta where the cost ofland is a little bit cheaper just
pencils a bit better yeah butreally cool technology too like
when we were going over likerealist
ca and how they're meshing thattogether And you can just look up
(04:59):
active listings and what you canput on those sites, like a
fourplex.
And then you can pick a design
from the Fast Track program.
Yeah.
And then you can pick Crazy.
Like super, super cool stuff.
Yeah.
Like five years ago, this would
have never been something we spokeabout.
But yeah, they've got some awesomestuff.
So sign up for their newsletter,come to some of their events.
(05:21):
I think Al said, you know, likelythey'll do another event in the
fall, but we'll keep it.
There's one day course, middle
school.
This is a very interesting
episode.
He has a lot of good things to
say.
Yeah, wicked guy.
All right, guys, this episode,like every other episode, is
sponsored by Century 21 InsuranceRealty, Best Brokerage in Kelowna,
and North Okanagan, SouthOkanagan.
all around the interior of BC.
If you're an agent looking for a
(05:41):
switch, or if you're a buyer orseller looking for an agent, give
us a call.
We'd love to talk to you.
Enjoy the episode, guys.
All right, Al.
So great to have you on the show,man.
I met you about eight months agoat one of your presentations and
thought you were doing some greatwork.
So we've been trying to get you onthe show for ages now.
So I appreciate you making timefor us.
Yeah, no, I really appreciate youguys asking me to come through.
(06:03):
This is great.
So maybe we can just start like
quick high level elevator pitch ofyourself and Middle, the company
you guys are expanding quiterapidly throughout Canada.
So I guess we met at our firstannual middle school here in the
city of Kelowna.
I guess we met at our first annual
middle school here in the city ofKelowna.
We've now done middle school.
in seven different cities, I think
we're up to over 1000 attendeesacross the country.
And historically, like I was areal estate agent, I graduated
from the University of Calgary,but I decided to get my real
(06:25):
estate license like when I was 18.
So right out of high school.
And so I went and got my realestate license.
I decided I still want to go touniversity because no one in my
family had a university degree.
And I was like, I'm going to be
the first.
I went and kind of, yeah, it was a
business school.
And it was tough because like my
family is all entrepreneurs.
My brothers were doing stuff.
(06:46):
My brother is the reason why I gotmy real estate license.
I basically like sat open housesthe entire time that I was in
university and basically got paidlike cash because no realtors
wanted to sit open houses, butthey wanted their clients to know
they had open houses.
And so I basically like have
signs.
back of my car that were like the
stock brokerage signs and wouldsettle open houses in like every
community.
And I would get to study because,
you know, back then, like no onewas buying from an open house and
we'd get like five people out.
(07:08):
But the cool thing for me is I
just like learned a bunch aboutcommunities, fabrics.
I would go literally anywhere inthe entire city of Calgary if I
was going to get paid to sit theopen house.
I never sold a single house inuniversity, but I sat a lot of
open houses.
And so it was like a crazy thing,
but I learned a ton and youlearned a lot about communities,
what was happening.
happening, transformation, new
(07:28):
builds, like new growthcommunities.
And I just really got anunderstanding of like what was
happening in the city.
And so when I graduated, I like
immediately thought, okay, well, Ineed to pay for my degree.
I went and got a job downtown.
I got a suit, a briefcase.
And like for like three weeks, Iwent through a training program
and I was like, I'm not doingthis.
And so I quit.
And I remember the guy being like,
you know, it's crappy that youdecided three weeks after rather
than a week.
(07:49):
Cause I guess like the training
program, they say costs $30 ,000.
I was like, Oh, I'm so.
Sorry.
Like, like I didn't learn anything
from you to go execute.
It was just like really good for
me to realize like I don't belonghere.
And so I asked my brother if hewould start an inner city building
company with me because I saw themarket was shifting and I thought
there was a need for thingshappening in the redevelopment.
And so that was kind of my journeyof getting into development.
(08:11):
So I've been in real estate for avery long time.
I was building infill houses,primarily like semi -detached,
tearing down older, you know,wartime bungalows, building
duplexes.
But then in 2015, we saw this kind
of like inflection point.
So I've been doing it since like
2007.
In 2015, prices like had doubled,
tripled.
The biggest house we built was
like a 3 -boy -2 million dollarsingle family and triple car
garage home in like a reallybeautiful area of the city.
And I think like the market inCalgary was always so boom and
(08:32):
bust.
There was tons of volatility.
But in 2015, my mom had passedaway and my dad was living in the
suburbs.
And we thought, okay, well, it's
kind of crappy for my dad to be byhimself and 20, 30 minutes away,
let's bring him into the innercity.
At the time, the only project thatseemed to make sense for us to
build was a duplex, which was waytoo big for my dad.
And so we were kind of like,should we go and see if we could
(08:57):
build four units?Because there was four units
across the street.
Everyone I talked to was like,
can't do that.
It doesn't work like that.
You can do whatever you want, butyou're not going to get approved.
And I was like, yeah, but it justdoesn't make sense.
Why can't you build townhomes on asite that right across the street?
On all four corners, there'stownhomes.
But for some reason, this street,you can't build a townhome.
Three corners had townhomes.
and And so hired a guy who was
like willing to do it with us.
(09:19):
We got rejected.
Like the city said, no, we wentthrough a process called Calgary
Planning Commission.
They also said no. And they're
like, there's no point for you togo to council.
You got two out of threerejections.
You're just going to get a thirdrejection.
I thought, well, pot committed atthis point, might as well go.
And we went and council debatedfor like seven hours for us to go
from what was allowed to be twounits to try to get to four units.
And we ended up losing because anew counselor just got elected,
got scared last minute and votedno, eight, seven.
And so that was like a hugeinflection point.
(09:40):
Like it was crappy that thathappened, but it also like, I got
calls from the chief urbanplanner.
I didn't even know there was arole on the chief urban planner at
the time.
I got to know what urban planning
was.
They basically pulled me in to be
like, so what were you trying todo?
I'm like, it's pretty simple.
We thought that we could try to do
more than two units on these lotsbecause you could still build
townhomes just like you alreadyallow in certain neighborhoods and
(10:01):
certain very remote pockets.
City agreed, created a new zoning
district, brought us in on theengagement.
We knew it was going to happen.
So in 2015, we went out and bought
like 30 of these lots, raised thecapital fund to go out and
basically execute on middlehousing now and move our entire
infill, what was a side -by -sideprogram to saying, let's do four
units.
We went on to do like, I think
from 2015 until, I don't know, wewere like 95 % of the city's
(10:22):
applications on that zoning codebecause no one had really caught
on that it was working.
I think we probably had built 150
units in that kind of row house.
And then, you know, 2020 COVID
pandemic happens.
We had so many of these townhomes
for sale.
We were competing with each other
because there was no otherproduct.
So people would go to two of ourhouses in different neighborhoods.
And so we just realized that wehad like really... probably
produce too many too fast.
(10:42):
But then, you know, there was this
big push for rental housing andMLI Select at the time was called
Flex.
There was almost like a loophole,
like you've stumbled into thisthing backwards, where when they
wrote the Roadhouse District, theyhad permitted you to actually have
secondary suites, which no onereally understood that it was a
market or could work or was aviable option.
And so we kind of like had thisproject.
(11:04):
We sat on it for two years payinglike a MES lending like loan.
We had approved BP, but we justdidn't want to put four more
townhomes of like 650 grand, 700into a market that wasn't moving.
So we held it and like lost moneyevery single month.
I'm talking like five grand amonth in mortgage payments in this
way.
Held it for like over two years.
And then we were just like, whatif we just like scrap that project
(11:24):
and added secondary suites andbuilt this thing as a rental?
And then we figured out that if weget a construction loan, we could
do a select takeout.
And then from that point, again,
like another huge inflection pointfor our development company,
because we learned that there wasa huge demand for rental at the
time, because not everyone couldget qualified for purchasing.
And then, you know, RoundSquarewas a company that we had built
(11:46):
this whole time has reallytransitioned into this purpose
built rental model.
We have, you know, 160 active
units.
that we're building in the
townhome space.
But I would say the thing about
the townhome stuff is like whenyou start to pioneer and do things
really well, you get pulled intoso many different directions.
And so we went on to do like a 220unit heritage restoration, seven
-story building in Winnipeg.
We did a medical center in
(12:07):
Calgary.
We've done a rooftop garden
building with like 20 units.
And so we went on and did a bunch
of things all the way fromcommercial to mixed -use heritage
restoration, seven -story, six-story buildings.
And I would say all of that torealize like...
The thing that we were doing thatwe were pioneering on that we
recognized was this kind of gentledensity.
There's REITs and pension fundsand really well -capitalized folks
that do six -story, seven -story,12, 15 really well.
We learned real quick, you have tohave a lot of money.
(12:29):
You have to compete at a highlevel.
There's really no room for errorsbecause the budgets are so
massive.
The complexities are extensive.
It's not as easy as everyonethinks.
And so we went back and I thinkjust after the pandemic...
Basically said, we're not going todo any more kind of underground
park aid structures, high rise,mid rise.
We're going to double down onmiddle housing.
And so we launched another fundand Brown Square was actively
doing 160 units.
And at that time, still very
(12:52):
involved in the city and veryinvolved in advocacy and moving
things along.
But the city of Calgary had voted
to make it as of right.
And so, you know, when that
happened, everything changed.
And just for like, I think there
was like 3000 applications forthis housing form, you know,
within a given year.
So you can see the uptake was
massive.
And so it was great.
Another inflection point formyself was like, my brother
(13:13):
doesn't really need me in thedevelopment company proper
anymore, because it's really asystem.
It's a process.
Land use is in place.
There's not a lot of like...
change and pioneering and things
happening.
And I met my partner, Darlene, who
I've worked with before.
She was a planning consultant at
Urban Planner.
She was the vice president of
Basecamp Developments, had tons ofexperience in development.
And I said, Dar, I think there waslike this missing ecosystem that
(13:36):
exists of people understandingwhat the opportunity is in middle
housing.
And we basically just asked
ourselves the question of like,what would it actually require to
scale this across Canada?It's difficult for any one company
to scale, which is also why it'sreally awesome.
Because a pension fund or REIT, alarge development company, it's
hard for them to go out andacquire 50 homeowners' homes and
then assemble building teams thatwant to build at these small
(13:57):
scales.
There hits this point where if you
start to produce too many units,you lose the ability to actually
do this housing form well, whichmakes it really beautiful because
it's not like craft beer, right?As soon as you go into
distribution, you change it.
But when you're a local taproom
servicing a market, you can doreally well.
As soon as you go intodistribution, it changes.
And that's the thing about middlehousing.
(14:17):
It's like what was successful wasa bunch of us small folks in
community that were doing reallywell.
The challenge was, is there was noplaybook.
There was no understanding of howto do it.
And the biggest thing that werealized was that the person that
is most equipped to do middlehousing really well is the
homeowner because they have theland at a land basis that none of
us could acquire it for.
And so we kind of just tried to re
(14:39):
-engineer the system to say, whatif we put them at the center of
the solution?And so much of the work we do at
middle is working withmunicipalities, working with
government, working withhomeowners.
to not only build the foundationalinformation education, but to
unite the ecosystem and figure outhow to get homeowners to be a part
of the solution.
And folks will always be like, oh,
you're never going to geteverybody to redevelop their home.
(14:59):
And it's like, well, that's reallynot the point.
The point is to make sure theyunderstand what the potential and
opportunities are, but also theecosystem and folks around them in
the industry have the ability tosupport that homeowner or embark
on doing that as well.
And so that's the journey we've
been on.
And it's been cool, man.
Like we've been embraced by somany different groups, I would say
across the country, not onlycities, like building groups, ULI,
like different groups who've beenreally strongly supportive of the
(15:22):
work that we're doing and tryingto achieve.
And so we see ourselves as likecapacity builders.
We're working on, you know,innovative policy here in Kelowna.
We helped launch the first versionof the fast track.
They're launching phase two.
which gets you a building permit
within 10 business days.
We use GIS mapping technology to
identify which one of those sitesbasically met the requirements for
those pre -approved lands.
And so again, reducing the
barriers, providing consistencyaround cost, architecture, who can
build it for what, what can Ibuild on my house?
(15:44):
So just really trying to simplifythose things.
And I know the GIS tool for us isreally cool because...
You now type in an address andit'll tell you whether or not you
can develop on your home and whatyou could develop.
So what used to take us likewaiting for an architect to do a
site plan test, pulling theaddress, trying to check the
zoning constraints.
We've now reduced that friction to
like it takes a minute to identifyat a high level whether or not
(16:08):
that place makes sense.
We're launching a Realtor
integration now too.
So with Realtor
ca, type in the address and it'lltell you whether or not that site
is actively listed.
But we've also done a scrape so
you can look at a city and say,okay, these are all the active
listings that meet the requirementfor a middle housing project.
Whoa, that's pretty cool.
Yeah, it's a lot.
Sorry, I know I just ranted there,but to give everyone a bit of
(16:30):
level sets of all the differentthings we're working on.
Yeah, that's awesome.
With that software, is that
specifically through your guys'like website or how do people
access it?If you go to our website, you go
to our website, we have acommunity and within that
community, there's what's calledthe middle GIS tool.
We also have a Performa tool, butthe middle GIS tool is currently
(16:50):
beta in Calgary and Kelowna.
And so you can type in your
address and test it.
In Calgary currently, there is no
pre -approved plans, but our goalis working with every municipality
to have a site that has a pre-approved plan.
And our future state is like,okay, well, we know these pre
-approved plans.
We know that the land that they
sit on, we understand the risks.
What we envision in the future is
(17:11):
like we have contractors that knowhow to build these or modular
developers that know how to buildthem.
Can we then like have someone runtheir performa, fill out a finance
tool and basically get them alltheir components that they need to
basically say, okay, I do have aviable project now and I can move
forward with it.
And so that's exactly what we're
trying to do is take all thethings that we've learned.
(17:32):
empowered by technology to givepeople that leg up on their
ability to deliver on theirprojects.
Okay.
So just to bring it back to
Kelowna, so your website, if youwant the GIS tool, you can type in
your address and it'll tell youwhat you can do.
And then you can pick a pre-approved plan there.
Correct.
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
So currently Colonna has three
approved plans.
They're launching another number
of them.
And so the idea is like we would
(17:53):
have all the pre -approved planslisted.
We haven't quite gotten to thepoint where we started to put all
of the contractors and architectson the website, but that's the
future state.
We're still early days with the
tool.
And honestly, we're taking a bunch
of feedback and getting people tokind of tell us what works, what
doesn't.
And again, like...
So, you know, Taylor and I met atmiddle school.
That was a full day.
We actually are launching a
program.
It's called Middle U. It's in
(18:15):
partnership with the University ofCalgary.
It's going to be all online.
And the idea is like, how do we
actually get people throughscenario modeling through the
emotional roller coasters ofbuilding, you know, a place?
And so that is a certified coursethrough the University of Calgary.
And our hope is that.
You know, we bring people through
a certificate of middle housingthat they've taken this course.
They have strong fundamentals.
It's 100 hours of instructional
delivery.
(18:35):
And then we tie that in the
future.
to hopefully a funding mechanism
and a tool that can help youactually deliver on your project.
And so, you know, in a high level,we see ourselves as like a venture
fund, a venture scale for middlehousing.
How do we scale fund?And depending on the level of
support you might need or mightnot need, some people just like,
they need to go right to differentlevels.
And we're just trying to basicallybe that support tool for those
levels that they're at.
(18:55):
That's awesome.
So in Kelowna is like a test spotfor you guys to get all this
started.
Yeah.
So Kelowna is like one of the mostprogressive, I would say like.
infill policies in Canada, like,you know, very, very progressive
administrative board that wants tosee things happen from a city
perspective.
And I think they've been exploring
different tools and they've beenon kind of the cutting edge of a
lot of this.
I would say that the challenges in
(19:16):
Kelowna are unique, you know, tothe city of like your guys' real
estate market, which you probablyknow better than I do.
How do we actually get things topencil today based on the market
that we find ourselves in?And so I think that's what we're
continuing to run up against.
It's like we can do a bunch of
things, but there's some macrolevel environment things that have
to change in order for us to seeproject viability.
(19:37):
And this is where I go back to thevery first thing I said to you.
If you're a homeowner, you'rebetter positioned than any other
developer in the industry todeliver on your home because you
purchased your land 10, 20, 15years ago.
And so we know that there'sviability if homeowners can be a
part of the solution.
They're not going to be able to do
it by themselves.
There's going to be developers and
(19:59):
builders that partner with them.
What we're trying to do is create
the infrastructure to allow forthose things to happen, for
homeowners to feel like they'reeducated, they know what they need
to get done, provide a bit of afacilitation support to bring the
industry together and make surethe right policy and there's
innovative tools to help them movethrough that journey.
And you're not.
you're not.
competing now, right?Like you're not an infill
developer, like you are simply onthe education side, basically.
100%.
Like I know a lot of folks are
(20:20):
like nervous to kind of share withus at times when we get an
industry, but it's like, no, ourgoal is not to be the delivery
mechanism.
It's to take homeowners and pair
them with delivery mechanisms.
It's to help delivery folks,
developers find the right piecesof land so that they can do the
right things and design highfunctioning places that make sense
for the community and people arehappy.
And so we see ourselves ascapacity.
(20:40):
builders.
We're trying to support you on
your goals and delivery.
And most importantly, I would say
the thing that we realize is thatif we don't include homeowners,
you'll never get to scale what youwant to do because they'll always
be pushed back.
And because politicians and
administration and cities willalways feel like if homeowners
aren't a part of the solution ornot a part of the equation, then
we'll continue to struggle todeliver within these established
communities because they werethere.
(21:00):
We need to figure out how toinclude them.
And so that's the way that we seeit.
We're trying to basically say...
We're simplifying the process so
that an everyday citizen can dothis.
And if we do that, it's only goingto help developers because their
processes are going to be morepredictable, more efficient to
move through the system.
Amazing.
Can we do like a shared screen andyou can walk us through briefly on
(21:21):
like a real life scenario, whetherit's Kelowna or Calgary or
anywhere, but just...
How do the numbers work?
Maybe touch on financing and landacquisition and stuff?
I don't have anything to pull upat the moment, but I can walk you
through what we're seeing work incertain neighborhoods and cities.
I guess I'll start by saying inCalgary and Edmonton, again, two
of the most progressive citieswhen you talk about infill and
middle housing specifically.
So in the city of Calgary, this is
(21:42):
not advice that I'll go buysomething and then say, hey, I
listened to your podcast and yousaid it'd be fine.
Anyway, call me before you buyanything.
But for the vast majority of thecity within the established
neighborhood, hoods, most lotsyou're allowed to do eight units
as of right.
So on a standard 50 by 126 ,000
square foot lot, you can deliverup to eight units.
Eight units.
Yeah.
So four primary units and foursecondary suites.
(22:03):
And so the most common forms thatyou would see.
getting delivered would be a fourby four.
So you'd have on a corner lot,four row houses with four
secondary suites.
And then on a mid block lot, you'd
kind of have this cottage court ofa duplex in the front, a duplex in
the back, and both duplexes wouldhave secondary suites.
Most of Alberta has laneways.
So everything's parked off the
lane, which I know is notnecessarily the case in Kelowna.
(22:25):
And so that's been the thingthat's really drove in the system,
I'd say the last three years.
And most of the people that are
building those.
When we started back in 15, it was
all sale.
There was a transition after the
pandemic where a lot of this wentrental.
And the reason why it went rentalis because a lot of folks were
using the CMHC MLI Select program,which I'm sure it's the hottest
thing on the market now becauseeveryone says, you can own this
(22:47):
place for 5 % down.
And I think it's just like a hot
tagline.
I would say it's not that easy.
We tell everyone that.
And if you have 5 % down and
you're trying to do a $3 millionproject, you can't do it.
You don't just need 150 grand.
significantly more complex and
nuanced.
And it's only gotten more
difficult to deliver.
And so I would say we're starting
to see the pendulum maybe shiftback to where folks are now
(23:09):
considering to do more sale, notjust rental.
Have you had any pushback fromneighbors about like eight units
on their formerly one house lot?100%.
Like this is the thing thatEdmonton and Calgary and every
city across North America isfacing is like, we were
traditionally single family homes.
And now we're putting in, you
know, eight units as of right.
And so It definitely has been
controversial.
There's like a fine balance.
So we've seen really greatexamples where eight units kind
of... seamlessly integrate intothese communities you have to
(23:32):
realize like people think thecontext of these communities are
wartime bungalows but they're notbecause they've always been
evolving so there's semi -detachedhomes there's like huge single
family homes that are threestories that look like they could
be eight units and so we've seensome really interesting like
contexts where they fit and theyfit in a way that has made sense i
would just say to you that likethe reason why middle like has
(23:52):
really taken this solution that wehave to be homeowner centric is
because we understand that likethere's homeowners in community
that feel like this is happeningto them not for them or with them
like as a developer i realizedthat that was the case because
it's not like i was sitting hereoverly concerned about what was
happening in their communitybecause you have a million other
things that you're concernedabout.
Like, are you going to be able tobuild on cost, on time, on budget?
(24:15):
What is the cost implications ifyou don't or you miss?
And so I would just say like allof those things are really, really
critical.
And it's not as simple as just
saying like, oh, we're justconcerned about the community
engagement piece.
yeah it is no question a challenge
and this is like a really goodexample for folks who get you know
really concerned about like whatdoes this look like so from the
street this looks like you know aduplex and next to you know a
single family home and infill butit's actually six units because
(24:39):
it's got two secondary suites andit's got two laneways And so this
is six units on what was typicallya single family home.
have to What size lot is that?Is that like a 120 by?
Yeah, 50, 50 foot frontage.
Yeah, so 6 ,000 square feet with a
lane loaded kind of backyard.
That is one of the pre -approved
plants that we're working on rightnow with the city of Calgary, city
(25:00):
of Edmonton to kind of make it sothose things can get built as of
right.
Community concerns are valid in
our mind and there's a lot ofthings we can do to help mitigate
them.
And I think one of the biggest
challenges we're having.
is that when examples don't land
strong, like when you haveexamples that are landing poorly
in community, it's reallychallenging.
(25:20):
And so how do we figure out a wayto create better built forms that
land in community?And one of the ways we think we
can do that is by working with,you know.
the city the community andhonestly at times even higher
caliber designers of architectswho can't make it feasible to work
on 150 by 120 but can potentiallymake it work to work on one that
could be replicated in manydifferent communities i'm going to
(25:42):
pull up the gis tool too eventhough it's in beta just for you
guys Take a peek at here as well.
So this is the map.
This is in Calgary.
You type in an address.
It'll tell you kind of a bunch ofdetails about the actual, you
know, address that you see.
And then obviously, you know, you
can look at the context of what'saround there.
And so here's an example of likeyou're on a corner site.
(26:03):
One of the best use cases on acorner site is what we call a 4x4.
So you see the rendering.
This is done by an architect group
called FAS.
And so, you know, it shows you
what it could look like.
And then, you know, maybe not as
conducive for a mid -blockconfiguration, but this is what a
mid -block configuration is.
integration.
And I would say like a lot ofthese are no's, but they could be
yeses.
(26:23):
I just wanted to kind of show you
high level what the site is kindof looking like and how we're
doing it.
That's pretty cool.
It just says this will work.
These two won't.
That's pretty cool.
That is very cool.
What normally would happen here islike you would have realtor
ca linked.
normally would happen here is like
you would have realtor ca linked.
And so now it would highlightwhatever ones that were listed in
(26:44):
that community now would be onhere.
And it would tell you whether ornot it was a green or red and you
could click on that.
That's awesome.
So I guess basically like oncethis is up and running, is it
primarily built for investors thento look for active listings?
And then what's a possibility tobuild on that?
I would say it's built for likeall three.
would say it's built for like allthree.
If you think about like the threecustomers that we tend to
(27:07):
interfere with.
face a lot with is like government
municipalities like what do theyknow is possible on the lands that
they have how do they createbetter systems and processes so
that everyone in community knowswhat's possible because one of the
challenges we have is like whenyou have someone that's
unsophisticated doing this for thefirst time submitting applications
and then getting kicked back andkicked back and delayed it's
(27:27):
problematic for everybody citiesdon't make more money when you
have bad applicants, right?Because they pay the same price.
It's not like you pay less ifyou're a shitty applicant and you
have to resubmit your plans 14times and you have to talk to the
planner 30 times.
Like that's actually cumbersome
for the municipalities.
And so how do we streamline
processes for municipalities andget to better outcomes?
The citizen often don't know whatthey can do and neither does the
realtor, quite frankly, at timesbecause they're not development
(27:48):
experts.
So that's smart.
Yeah, no, like, I mean, it's not abad thing, but it's a good thing.
It's like, how do we get therealtor?
We see realtors.
coming to all of our programming.
And I love having conversationsbecause they recognize that not
only is this important for them tounderstand their markets, it's
important for their clients.
So we've had realtors now that
send their clients to us beforethey decide whether or not they
want to sell, buy, develop.
Because I think the thing that I
love most about realtors now is alot of them are not short
(28:10):
-sighted.
They're not just looking for a one
-time commission.
They recognize that referral, that
word about that maybe this guywill go on to buy three or this
one will go on to buy two or fouror they'll be... a developer and
i'll be the person that sellsthose products or helps and buys
them so they have this like desireto learn more and i think like
that is the gap that we're fillingis like i didn't know where we
would have went back in the daywhen we did this we just learned
by mistakes and i think we have somuch information and we have a
(28:32):
process and now we're leveragingtechnology to make it easier for
more people to understand what theopportunities are specific to
colonna i mean obviously i feelthis works to colonna i mean
obviously i feel this works betterin Alberta, and you can correct me
if I'm wrong, but Kelowna landprices are pretty expensive,
right?So if someone wants to go and buy
a $800 ,000, $900 ,000 house totear it down and do infill, do the
numbers still work here as aninvestment?
Or is this primarily like...
Hey, I'm a current homeowner.
(28:53):
I've owned this house for 10years.
However, I want to make it more oflike a generational living.
You know, I want to bring myparents in or somewhere for my
kids to live on a separatedwelling plus some rental income.
Like, are you seeing moreopportunity on homeowners wanting
to build four units to have alittle bit of revenue income and
provide housing for family aswell?
Or like, where does this fit bestKelowna specific?
(29:15):
Yeah.
You know, what's funny is like, so
two things I would say likecolonists in like a bit of a real
estate, it feels like a bit of alull here, like in terms of sales
and volumes and historicallycompared to where you typically
have been, I think there's somelows that have been, but then it
seems to kind of swing.
Like you kind of have these years
or months that come by and it'shigh again.
(29:35):
And so.
I think, no question, the
homeowner -centric model makes aton of sense.
There's viability in it.
How do we bring more homeowners
through the process?From an investor standpoint, on
the purpose -built rental side,it's tough, right?
Because you're right.
The land prices are a million
bucks.
You're trying to build six units,
and then there's an affordabilityrequirement that two of those six
have to be at 30 % of the medianif you're going to go after the
rental model with CMHC.
(29:57):
There are use cases right now,
though, where we've seen peoplemake the numbers make sense and
work through it.
So there's a part of the folks
that are... active right now thatare delivering these.
What I would say is the city isactively working on reducing some
of the barriers and costs, whetherit be DCC fees, off -site
improvements, Fortis improvements,and also funding potential models
that exist that make this moreviable.
I also think the sale numbers canmake sense in Kelowna, maybe not
so much a rental market, but thisidea of, okay, if I was to build
(30:19):
these units and sell them, howwould they perform?
I think there's probably more usecases for sale than... there is
rental.
And I think rental can work, but
your expectations would have to betempered.
We tell everyone this CMHC, likeeveryone thinks they're going to
get rich quick.
It's not like that.
It's a 50 year amortization with a10 year requirement on the
affordable piece.
And so if you're doing this to
make a ton of money in a shortamount of time, it's not the tool
for you.
(30:40):
What I think is interesting about
Kelowna is the type of producttypology that's missing.
So this idea of three bedroomfamily oriented at home, I think
there's a lot of room for, I thinkif you're building, you know,
Stuff that's going to compete witha fairly robust condo market,
rental market in the apartmentside, it's going to be tough.
And so there's room for sure, butit's got to be in the housing
diversity and options that you'rebuilding.
(31:00):
So you mentioned earlier aboutmodular.
So you mentioned earlier aboutmodular.
So is modular a solution for someof this?
Yeah, yeah.
So a few of the pre -improved
plans that were designed wereactually modular ready.
And so they were fully... designedso that you can deliver modularly
what i would say is like again thesame complexities and limitations
right like there's not a lot ofpeople that have done modular
especially at the infill scale butthen also like what are the
(31:20):
complexities that come along withit but then what are the
limitations so you get outside oflike there's not a lot of
customization that can happen inthese things and so You get this
huge efficiency in terms oftimeline.
You get some cost efficiencies.
Sometimes it's even at par.
But the challenge today is likethere's this gap for modular where
if you're going to provide modularconstruction, who funds like the
building of those?Generally speaking, when you're
doing construction draws, you getdraws based on how far you've
(31:41):
gotten on site.
Traditionally, banks don't fund
mods that are being built in afactory until they arrive at site.
But factories need 100 % paymentonce those things leave factory.
There's a huge funding gap thathasn't quite been solved about who
deals with that portion of thefunding.
Interesting.
I haven't heard that.
funding.
Interesting.
I haven't heard that.
That's interesting.
It's a good point.
When you hear about modular and
you hear about this, to me, itjust makes so much sense.
(32:02):
And I just don't understand why wedon't see it.
At all.
I guess that answers a bit why.
Modular factories are good atproducing modular homes.
They're not necessarily good atthe last mile logistics of on
-site construction, delivery andplacement.
And so if you're a modular factoryand you're staying in your own
lane and you can produce thesehomes.
Someone's got to deal with thetransportation, trucking, and
(32:23):
logistics.
And then someone else has to deal
with the onsites.
And so if you go to a general GC
and say, a general contractor, Ineed you to do all my service
hookups, landscaping, foundations,but that's it.
You're taking away like 70 % oftheir scope.
Why would a GC want to only dothat part of the scope and not the
rest?And so what we're finding is like
there isn't enough people who arejust experts in delivery of
modular because it's never reallycaught on at scale.
(32:45):
And so part of what I think weneed to see is a bit of an
upscaling.
of what that last module logistics
looks like.
Opportunity.
Anyone listening.
You know, it's funny.
We did have Ryan Smith on fromCity of Kelowna.
Yeah, a few episodes ago.
And we were kind of speaking about
some of this as well.
But to stay on like the funding
point that there's that bit of agap there.
It's similar to, you know, if ahomeowner owns their home, but
(33:05):
they can't qualify for like theequity takeout to start this
process.
It seems like you guys are way
ahead of the curve on everythingelse.
And kind of you're working withthe government as well.
Do you see anything coming downthe pipeline that would help
facilitate, like a homeowner hastheir property, they have a bunch
of equity, but they have noincome, so they can't
conventionally qualify for amortgage.
Are there any programs that arecoming down the pipe to help them
(33:26):
do some of these infill projects?Like if that's the barrier for
them right now?I think there's been a lot of
conversation around this idea ofbeing cash core, think there's
been a lot of conversation aroundthis idea of being cash core, but
house rich, right?Like if you think about our
boomers are historically the onewho bought it.
There's a ton of people like that.
it. There's a ton of people like
(33:46):
that.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so we've done a lot ofnetworking exercises.
We've done surveys and intakes tounderstand what is that capital
stack barrier that we need to getthem to a project.
And then even once you get them tothe project, what is the approval
requirements to actually proceedforward with the development?
I think there's a model there, noquestion.
(34:10):
I think the question is, is how doyou shore up the risk, right?
Because there's an equity stackrisk that needs to be shored up
for whoever funds that initialequity stack.
But also like, this is the thingthat I think is going to take time
and it's not going to happenovernight.
A homeowner who lives in thecommunity, for them to think that
a boomer is going to become adeveloper, it's a hard thing,
right?You're going to go out and take on
(34:30):
a $3 million construction projectwhen you've never done any of this
before, and you've got to go livesomewhere for, let's call it, 12
months.
And you're retired.
Yeah.
So what I would say to you is that
person is showing up with us insmall amounts, but when they do
show up, it's generally with theirkids.
Like their kids are youngprofessionals who need homes, who
(34:50):
are renting and who are likeunderstanding that this is an
opportunity for them now.
And so you kind of need that
community.
Like it takes a village.
And I would say the financingpiece is one part, but then the
actual cultural risk aversionpiece is just a whole nother layer
that we're trying to unpack.
part of it is like they don't know
what they don't know.
And so if we don't have a
(35:12):
foundation of education orinformation or understanding the
process, if we don't have goodexamples of people who have moved
through the system, that could bethose early adopters who have
successfully done it.
None of this matters.
And so I would say those first fewin community are going to be
absolutely critical, not only todo well for those people who
embark on this, but to land well.
And the people that can do it
(35:34):
right now are the developers,right?
Are the realtors, are theinvestors, are the folks who are
savvy.
And what we... need to do a better
job at is I think making surethose projects are landing well in
community so that we can work withhomeowners eventually in
communities, the citizens andcities to actually allow for this
to happen at a more robust,scalable way.
going to go Yeah, totally.
Totally.
And I guess if someone isinterested, what does it look like
to work with you guys?Like, what's the cost?
(35:57):
I know you're talking about like,you know, the 100 hour course, you
put on some of these daily things.
I think some of the cost is
potentially subsidized by thecity, which is great.
But yeah, can you walk us throughwhat it looks like if someone
wants to work with you?We kind of have a suite of product
tools that we built as a way tokind of help folks through
navigating the system.
So our middle school.
Depending on the municipality, ifwe have a partnership or not,
anywhere from like $100 to $350,$500 for the full day.
And so that you spend a full day.
(36:18):
We bring in experts from every
field to come in and chat.
We have a networking event.
Oftentimes, we'll have a walkingtour depending on the community
that we're in.
But it's essentially like giving
you as much information as we canin kind of a boot camp style one
-day event.
And then after that, we've
launched Middle U, which we'lllaunch in the fall.
That program is going to be kindof in that $3 ,000 range.
(36:41):
for 100 hours of instructionalhours with a certification at the
end.
Again, there'll be some
opportunities, we're hoping, wherethat's subsidized and funded,
depending on where you're comingfrom or the groups that we get to
fund that program.
But after that, let's say you're
moving through and you have a reallive project and you want to move.
We launched two programs inearnest as a response to the
education.
One of them was called our
(37:03):
Accelerator.
So we have over 70 experts from
across Canada that have all workedin the middle housing space.
developers, accountants, lawyers,surveyors, like...
Just builders, anyone you canthink of who have basically said
they're willing to donate theirtime and sit down with people for
an hour to learn and give theminformation and feedback on their
project.
It's an hourly rate.
We pay those folks.
That's a program where we're still
retooling, but we think isincredibly powerful.
So the accelerator is a great wayfor someone to say, I want to talk
(37:28):
to this person about financingbecause I need to know if I can do
this.
Or I want to talk to this person
about building within thisspecific jurisdiction.
That's a tool that we have on ourwebsite.
The next one that we have is kindof our master's program.
And I would say that this one,we're refining two levels of
master.
One is like, we meet with you once
a month.
You bring anything you want to go
(37:48):
over.
We go over that on your project.
It's kind of an opportunity foryou to have another set of eyes to
ask questions because often it'slonely.
Like you don't know who has yourbest interest.
You have an architect, you have abuilder, but everyone's getting
paid to do something and deliverfor you.
And oftentimes you don't know ifthat's the best thing.
And so that I remember, you know,in my journey, that would happen
all the time.
Contractor said he could build
(38:09):
something.
Designer said that it was
feasible.
And then you get to go do it.
And they're like, oh yeah, no, no,we didn't know that it would be
that much.
And it's like, it's triple the
price that you both told me.
I could deliver this for.
And so we try to add as likeanother set of eyes, oftentimes on
larger projects, like folks willhire what's called like an owner's
rep.
And that's like for folks to have
(38:31):
someone on the ground on largeprojects to basically represent
their interests.
We're trying to do this in a
little bit of an augmented way onsmaller scale projects to bring
all the expertise.
And so that's kind of like a
coaching, a one hour session thatwe do monthly with folks.
We've launched another program,which is basically like a tool
that we're currently buildingwhere it's an augmented
development.
management tool where we build
this interface.
And the hope of that interface is
to basically work with you on amore consistent weekly basis where
you're still going to need abuilder, probably maybe a
(38:53):
developer, or you're still goingto need all those pieces, but
we're building a framework toolthat allows you to interface with
us, track your developments.
We're trying to like outline every
single step that needs to be done,almost give you like a digital
dashboard where, you know, it'sgoing to be as valuable as you
make it based on the informationthat you put in.
Again, this is something thatwe've been contemplating.
contemplating.
We have two customers right now
(39:15):
that are kind of in that moreadvanced program.
We've also funded a fewdemonstration projects based on
what you just talked about,Taylor, this idea of we were to
fund that capital stack portion ona few projects, would that unlock
a few projects?And so we're funding a first time
homeowner right now who had acapital stack gap to help them get
over the finish line.
Cool.
That is pretty awesome.
We had Steven Jagger from Addy
(39:36):
come on as well.
I know he was, I don't know if he
was working with you guys or not,but he... did start one of the
first fast track programs inKelowna to try and facilitate some
of this.
So it'd be interesting to see if
they get into funding some ofthese as well, like some
crowdfunding.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We launched one of our projects on
(39:57):
Addy as a crowdfunding project.
We raised, I think it was 150 ,000
through Addy on a demonstrationproject.
I love what those guys are after.
I think there's a lot of room in
that idea of like, you know, forcommunity by community, if you
could kind of get a bunch ofpeople behind the program, what I
would say about Addy is like,still so complex and nuanced.
And there's so much money thatneeds to be paid before you even
know whether or not you're goingto have a successful project.
(40:17):
And so for me, it's like we haveto find a better way to move
through that system because we'repretty sophisticated in terms of
our development, our understandingof legal contracts, what's
required.
And I would say if we have a tough
time navigating that process, youcan imagine.
a citizen's even going to have atougher time.
And I would say, let alone thecomplexity, even if you get
through the complexities andnavigating that process, why would
you ever fund someone who's neverdone this before?
Like in a market right now wherepeople are fairly nervous about
(40:38):
what's happening, like you want meto fund John, who's never built
anything ever before in his lifeto do his first project.
And so that's where I think we canplay a huge role because it's
like...
No, don't worry.
John's not going to be by himself.
He's powered by middle.
So he'll have, you know, the fullresources and power of our team
behind him to make sure heactually gets through the project.
Yeah.
What was interesting to me when we
first started speaking, it waslike, yeah, like middle housing,
you're focused on infill.
Like that was what I thought, you
(41:00):
know, the company was.
But, you know, after the
presentation and speaking to youafterwards, finding out that, you
know, you guys were supported.
financially by federal grants is
how you're making it so affordableand accessible to people.
To me, it's not like, oh, you guyshave built a company to help with
middle housing.
It's you've built a company to
help that middle education, middleconsulting piece, right?
It's a huge endeavor and it'spretty scary for people to go in
(41:21):
and tear down a house and try andbuild a fourplex.
But if you're able to consult...
on a like small fee because the
government is encouraging you guysand supporting you guys to help
with that.
It's like, go with the flow,
right?Go with the government policy of
if this is what they'resupporting, it's obviously what
they want.
So, you know, after speaking with
you for a while, I was like, It'snot an expensive bill because the
(41:41):
government wants to facilitatethis.
Right.
So, yeah, I appreciate what you
guys are doing in that space.
Yeah, no. And I mean, like I'm an
entrepreneur and I understandwe're not a nonprofit and we're
building, you know, differenttools that we're able to be
profitable on.
But I think none of it matters.
Like when you think about thefunnel, it's not going to matter
if people don't feel like theyhave the foundations of education
and understanding of what it takesto move through it.
(42:04):
So we could build every suite oftool.
We could build a fund.
We could be a development manager.
You could do a bunch.
of different things but none of
that matters if people just don'tknow what they don't know and so i
think like What we went to thegovernment for when we worked with
the housing supply challenge was,you know, they wanted to see
actual movement and housingstarts.
And we said, that's really toughto do if we don't understand what
the knowledge policy barrier gapsare.
(42:25):
And so we kind of identified whatwe thought those gaps were and
started to provide solutions forthose gaps.
And so, like I said, we thinkwe're finding the right
ingredients.
It's unique depending on the
municipality and the framework inwhich you're working with.
working with Regina and Saskatoon,and we've had conversations with
even smaller municipalities,Airdrie, Red Deer, Lethbridge,
very, very small places that arealso very keen to figure out what
it can look like for them to getmore of this housing form built.
(42:46):
So I would just say, Taylor, we'velanded on the fact that there's
consensus that this housing formmatters.
It can be incredibly beneficial tocommunities and cities all across
the country.
How do we prepare them with the
right tool sets, education, andfoundation to deliver on those?
things.
And we were lucky enough to be a
part of the housing supplychallenges, which you're talking
about with the federal government,where we are one of four finalists
(43:07):
across the country.
There was 260 applications and we
advanced as a finalist through theyear in a competition, which made
a huge difference and kind of gaveus that boost to be able to keep
going.
The cool part about it is we're
seeing people come out the otherend now, right?
Like that are developing, that areon their journey, that are doing
it.
(43:27):
And I think the other thing about
us that's been really interestingis like whatever you need in order
to actually deliver is what wewant to give you.
I know there's people on ourcommunity page that like are
lurking, that are active membersthat are watching.
And I'll see them two months downthe road and they'll say, man, I'm
so glad that guy posted thatmessage because I had no idea that
they were doing that.
(43:48):
And I basically went back to my
project and refined it and changedthis.
And it's like, perfect.
Like that's exactly.
Well, what we want to do is wewant to be a resource for where
you are at your journey and makesure if that's interfacing with us
on our socials, on our digitals,coming to the courses, coming to
the networking programs that we'rethrowing.
That's what we're trying to do.
Yeah.
Maybe we'll finish off with that.
(44:10):
With the last question is when's
the next event in Kelowna?Yeah.
Yeah.
So we don't have a date yet booked
for the Kelowna region at themoment.
I would say like we're working onwith the city right now on the
second phase, I guess would belike the third phase of their fast
track.
So I think as that the new plans.
launch and give a bit of diversitybecause i know there was some
(44:32):
feedback on the first set of plansthat launched i think we'll see
more interest but we have plans tohost middle school through the
fall and then also in the fall thelaunch of middle u which would be
open to folks all across canada asi said because it'd be done mostly
online a great opportunity forfolks to kind of get in and learn
the foundations and then also runthrough some use case modeling
(44:53):
awesome all right well we'll seeyou in the fall then definitely
thank you so much for coming onand oh that was awesome think all
right well we'll see you in thefall then definitely thank you so
much for coming on and oh that wasawesome You're doing some crazy
things.
we'll Yeah.
I really appreciate you guyshaving me on.
me on.
Your vision board must just look
insane.
It is.
And I think like, it's funnybecause we talk about that all the
(45:14):
time.
Like most entrepreneurs don't die
from starvation.
They die from like, you know,
indigestion.
And so we're just like trying to
be mindful and stay focused on ourniche and what we do well.
And I think a bit of it is like,what is the thing that we think is
going to make the most meaningfuldifference?
And that's what we're after.
So whatever you're after, you're
after, keep it up.
Doing the right things, dude.
Thanks, man.
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