October 21, 2025 • 43 mins
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EPISODE DESCRIPTION
Episode 107: Matt and Taylor are joined by Patrick Bobyn. Patrick is a Partner at Pushor Mitchell LLP from Kelowna, BC, who's also the Vice-President of the Board of Directors for the Kelowna Chamber of Commerce. Patrick's practice areas are primarily business law, real estate, and financial institution security. He places an emphasis on building a trusting relationship with those he works with, while focusing on providing efficient, effective, and cost-friendly services to his clients.
Pushor Mitchell LLP is a full-service law firm, and the largest firms outside the lower mainland, with a team of over 50 lawyers and over 100 staff serving clients across Western Canada and the U.S. Established in 1906, the Kelowna Chamber of Commerce is a not-for-profit organization improving the effectiveness of doing business for it's members in the Okanagan valley. It is a major catalyst for business growth and partnerships within a diverse and fast-growing business community.
Patrick is here to discuss: → His role in the Kelowna COC, the state of small businesses in Kelowna, and how you can get involved the Kelowna COC. → The lawyer's role in a real estate transaction, purchase contracts & holdbacks, and the impact of price reductions or credits at closing. → Compliance changes with title insurance, the first-time homebuyers GST rebate, and what happens if sellers can't afford Realtor commissions.
Kelowna Chamber of Commerce Website: www.kelownachamber.org
Kelowna Chamber of Commerce LinkedIn: @KelownaChamber
Pushor Mitchell Website: www.pushormitchell.com
Pushor Mitchell LinkedIn: @PushorMitchellLLP
Pushor Mitchell Instagram: @pushormitchell
Patrick Bobyn's LinkedIn: @PatrickBobyn
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CONNECT WITH MATT
Matt Glen's Website: www.mattglen.ca
Matt Glen's Email: matt.glen@century21.ca
Matt Glen's Instagram: @mattglenrealestate
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CONNECT WITH TAYLOR
Taylor Atkinson's Website: www.venturemortgages.com
Taylor Atkinson's Email: taylor@venturemortgages.com
Taylor Atkinson's Instagram: @VentureMortgages
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome back to the Colonial RealEstate Podcast.
(00:01):
I'm your mortgage broker host,Taylor Atkinson.
Drywall dust, I love it.
Yeah, how's it going over there?
You're on time and on budget likeall renovations.
(00:27):
I mean, it's a value add for yourclients.
Like, you know, it's nice to havea real estate agent that has done
renovations or gone through likepermanent process and can kind of
understand some of the painpoints.
Yeah.
It's harder like when you're
living in the home, but it's notreally affecting your living
(00:55):
conditions and your kids.
Yeah, totally.
Yeah.
And you guys are converting it to
(01:16):
a suite, right?A basement suite?
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, your kitchen in the
main is awesome, but it's likethat was pre -kids and...
You know, it's like something thatyou have a lot of passion about
because you're going to be usingit like immediately.
You wear a basement suite.
You're like, huh.
Yeah.
Well, good luck, man.
(01:36):
Yeah.
Speaking of luck, wearing a Blue
Jays hat today.
We're heading down actually
tomorrow to see game four.
So they need some luck at this
point.
They're not playing as they should
be.
They just need to start hitting
the ball.
So I'm confident they'll win too
(02:00):
in Seattle.
And then they'll bring it back to
Toronto for Game 7.
Okay, well, we want to jump into
this show.
We recorded with Patrick Bobbin
from Pusher & Mitchell and KelownaChamber of Commerce.
So with Pusher & Mitchell, he's alawyer there, partner, and then
Chamber of Commerce, he's vicepresident on the board.
(02:21):
I work a lot with Pat and he isawesome.
And I think one of the big thingsthat I want to communicate, and
we've talked about this a bunch onthe show before, is like you
really want a team ofprofessionals that are on the same
page.
They communicate with each other
like they're working collectively.
get the job done you know we have
some great lawyers in town to dothese transactions but yeah i've
worked with pat a ton and uh yeahhis team's awesome i can't say
(02:44):
enough about them so just findsomeone you trust and you feel is
going to get the job done becauseyou do not want things blowing up
at the last minute and somebody'slaw firm not being able to handle
it so maybe you can speak to thatas well because i know yeah times
get a little stressful at the endof it Yeah.
Prusher & Mitchell is a huge firm.
Like they do everything.
They've been in Kelowna for 50years or something.
(03:05):
And yeah, they're involved in thecommunity as well.
(03:32):
Like, you know, for Pat to be inwith the Chamber of Commerce, like
working with small businesses kindof has his finger on the pulse.
So I brought up some awesomepoints near the end of the show
too.
Like pretty interesting
suggestions on clauses or how tostructure deals.
So yeah, I think well worth thelisten.
You guys are going to enjoy theshow.
I don't know if he has time forit, man.
Like he's got two young kids aswell.
(03:52):
His wife's a lawyer who's anamazing lawyer as well.
They're doing great things in thecommunity, but yeah, I can't say
enough good things about that.
Like he's just been awesome to
work with.
So yeah.
Okay, Patrick Bobbin, it's been along time coming trying to get you
on the show, but glad we couldsync up schedules.
How are you?I'm doing well.
(04:13):
Thanks, Taylor.
Matt, it's great to be on here.
And it has been a long timecoming, but really looking forward
(04:53):
to it.
I think good busy guests are hard
to get.
So yeah, you tick the box.
Maybe we'll just jump straightinto, I mean, you kind of have two
roles that we wanted to discusstoday.
And one is on the Chamber ofCommerce.
So can you kind of give us a highlevel view of...
Yeah, what your role is there andwhat is the Chamber of Commerce?
No, absolutely.
Great question in that regard.
And for those who don't know,Kelowna Chamber of Commerce,
(05:13):
business community is really whatthat is.
And so the Chamber is wherebusinesses of all sizes, from sole
proprietorship to hundreds ofemployees, can be a member in
terms of what the Chamberprovides.
I would say are three main things.
Advocacy, benefits.
and connections and so dependingon what a business is looking for
whether it be all three or one ofthose things the chamber provides
that where our intent our revisionis to be the catalyst of the
(05:35):
business community and so my rolei'm a director it's a volunteer
board but typically there is alawyer or lawyers on that board we
actually have three right now topracticing the smart ones, not
practicing, but something that myfirm push for Mitchell has been
involved with for a long period oftime.
We typically have a lawyer on thatboard.
And so it's my turn right now.
(05:56):
Like you must have your finger on
the pulse in terms of smallbusinesses in Kelowna.
Like what is the current vibe?Are people worried economically?
Are people thriving?Do people see opportunities?
Like, yeah, what are thediscussions you guys are having?
No, it's a good question.
It really is something that it's
not a one size fits all, but.
A big part of our model is we
intend to be the voice for thebusiness community.
(06:16):
And so really, I'd say a big thingwe do is listen.
We always say, what is keeping youup at night to our members?
And there's, we have over athousand members.
So you think of the businesscommunity, I mean, that impacts a
lot of different sectors.
I think what you see right now,
and in a lot of ways, notsurprising, but it's just that
business uncertainty.
You look at the States, what's
(06:37):
going on down there and the rippleeffect that it has up here.
You look at rising costs.
A lot of business owners, big and
smaller saying, my margins areshrinking and shrinking and
shrinking.
Expenses are going up.
How do I keep the lights on goingforward?
So while there is a lot ofoptimism and there's a lot of
great success stories in thistown, I do think our business
community is still very much inthat cloud of uncertainty in terms
of going to 2026 and what thatlooks like going forward.
And so the Chamber's role isreally, going back to those three
(07:00):
things, advocacy.
What are the issues?
What are keeping our members up atnight?
How can we relay that to theproper channels?
Is that a municipal issue?Is that something that we should
be going to the federal level,proposing a policy or trying to
get a distinguished speaker in totalk about that issue?
Those are all things as thechamber we try to facilitate.
That's awesome.
And so I guess in the last couple
(07:21):
of years, I'm just kind ofassuming, but have we seen kind of
tourism go down, you know, forestfires, Airbnb, stuff like that?
Like, is that what is alsoimpacting small businesses or do
you guys have some of that data?yeah there's a lot of good
intersections so Tourism Kelownais really focused on the tourism
side of things but we very muchwork hand in hand and there's a
lot of issues that are relevantfor their members and our members
(07:42):
and we also share a lot of membersas you can appreciate there in
that regard so I think certainlyyou look at this past year and
especially with the states per seand you know that's a big part of
our tourism there was concernthere now obviously I think on the
flip side that did promote crossjurisdiction in terms of Canada
and Canadians coming out this way,which is good.
But like you said, there's alwaysbarriers we have to consider here.
There's the short term rentals,which is a big part of our
(08:04):
community.
And our mayor actually spoke about
that a couple of weeks ago at oneof our chamber luncheons and
hurdles in that regard.
And we're always asking what more
can we do to promote tourismwithin the city?
You kind of hit a buzz topicthere.
And so one of the things thechamber does at both a provincial
and a federal level is promotepolicy.
So chambers throughout BC once ayear will go to an annual general
(08:24):
meeting of BC chambers wherecertain policies can be promoted.
And that actually happens at thefederal level as well.
It actually happened last weekwhere our president and our CEO
went to Mississauga and were atthe federal level there where they
can promote certain policies.
And so one of the ones that we
have been pushing for a longperiod of time is that inter
-provincial cross -border trade.
(08:49):
And obviously the barriers that we
see, you think of the wineindustry per se, or alcohol in
that regard.
And so I think we've been
hammering on that in addition tomany other chambers and entities,
but that's been something we'vebeen trying to push for years.
And obviously with everythinghappening in the States.
it does look like there's been alittle bit of movement there now
obviously uh the federal level youhad to get 13 provinces and
(09:13):
territories on board there but wedo feel that locally that's been
an issue that we've been on top ofand something we've been quite
vocal about and hopefully we'restarting to see some movement
there yeah you think it would havehappened like at a much more rapid
pace like you think you knowtariffs would have been the the
catalyst to like get innerprovincial trading going here you
know but it hasn't come tofruition you think it would have
(09:34):
happened like at a much more rapidpace like you think you know
tariffs would have been the thecatalyst to like get inner
provincial trading going here youknow but it hasn't come to
fruition No, I mean, again, asmuch as it's something that we
advocate for at a local level interms of a policy, it does work
its way up.
I think right now it's really
between the federal level and allyour provinces trying to figure
out how to make that work.
(09:54):
I'm not a politician by any means,
but I think it'd be appreciatedthat a lot of moving parts there.
But I think there's a generalconsensus that it's something that
has to get figured out.
It's just we got to get there.
You know, Matt, I think it's oneof those things too, is like you
said, it's always the ripple orthe unintended consequences or how
that impacts other industries.
We obviously look at tourism again
and how, especially in thesummertime, short -term rentals
provided an alternative avenue foraccommodations, which obviously I
would say has a good impact onsurrounding business, whatnot.
And again, as a chamber, we alsohave to appreciate that we have
many members who are hotels orother forms of accommodation.
(10:15):
So you're trying to find thatbalance between all the various
considerations per se.
But another avenue is short -term
rentals at time would provideother accommodations for work
reasons, whether they're here fora certain period of time to do
their job or whatnot.
And so with the restrictions we
have, that does add another hurdleon that end, which can have
(10:49):
impacts from an economicperspective as well.
On our end, I'm kind of wearing mylegal hat as well in terms of just
the businesses I advise per se.
You know, Kelowna, obviously in
the greater Okanagan, a lot of thefocus is on tourism, but year
round.
a lot of those issues don't go
away and so i know the chamber isa big proponent of shop local and
(11:09):
contribute to the local economynot just in the four summer months
but year round i think back toyour question there it's
definitely something that impactsus year round and on multiple
levels including the restaurantsabsolutely do you see the chamber
like when everyone's you see thechamber like when everyone's
profitable and, you know, economyis good on the small business
side.
Does that correlate directly to
(11:30):
like you guys doing moretransactions and closing on the
legal side, like real estate'sbooming as well?
They kind of go hand in hand or isthere any connection between those
(11:55):
two?I think, think, I mean, honestly,
a good economy is good for all,you know, obviously on the, you
know, the chamber and we want tosee business thrive at all levels.
Our main viewpoint there is abusiness is good.
That's going to have a rippleeffect on various professions per
se.
I mean, look at the three of us in
our profession.
As real estate goes up, it
benefits all three of ours.
And so I do see that here.
(12:16):
I mean, when you look back toCOVID or in times of uncertainty,
I think on the transactional side,you do see a bit more creativity
per se.
Things like vendor financing or
other ways of potentially gettingdeals done if you have a motivated
buyer and seller.
But certainly if the economy is
good and business is doing well.
That definitely is going to have a
positive effect on the legal sidefrom a transaction point of view.
(12:37):
Maybe to kind of wrap up on thecommerce side, how do people
connect with you, small businessowners, or maybe not you
specifically, but how do they getinvolved in the Chamber of
Commerce and what does that looklike?
The Chamber is a not -profitorganization, so we do have a
small team led by our CEO ofGeorge Greenwood.
Chamber is a not -profitorganization, so we do have a
small team led by our CEO ofGeorge Greenwood.
And I will say our team is smallin number, but they all punch well
(12:59):
above their weight class.
The work they do on a daily basis
is unbelievable from anoperational perspective.
perspective and a lot of bigevents that we host whether it be
luncheons or educational events orspeaker series you know our big
event actually at the end of thismonth is the business excellence
awards which is always a fantasticnight to really celebrate a local
business there's over 16 awardsthat are presented and I've been
(13:19):
going for a couple years now thatevent is always so amazing to see
the type of business out there theawards are quite diverse in terms
of the categories typically whathappens is your finalists each one
for each award it's a long nightBut you do get a video overview of
what each business does and theirstory, their individual story.
It's inspiring, actually, just tohear the different stories and
different successes our communityhas in that regard.
Those are operations.
And then from a board governance
model, myself, in addition toother directors, were there to
really guide the chamber from agovernance perspective.
And so I'm the vice president thisyear.
(13:41):
That's certainly something that ifpeople are interested, they have
just general questions on how thechamber works or if they want to.
get involved as a member or as avolunteer i mean they can
certainly reach out to me or justreach out to our ceo george in
general through our websiteawesome man i love it yeah and
that is one thing like i see inkelowna and maybe you know we live
(14:02):
in a bit of a bubble and peoplearen't so aware but like there are
some awesome entrepreneurs inokanagan is such a good community
that way so yeah it must beexciting to see them grow i will
finish with one more thing on thechamber and this is i'm going to
throw a question at you we'recelebrating a you know milestone
next year as a chamber man i loveit yeah and that is one thing like
(14:22):
i see in kelowna and maybe youknow we live in a bit of a bubble
and people aren't so aware butlike there are some awesome
entrepreneurs in okanagan is sucha good community that way so yeah
it must be exciting to see themgrow will finish with one more
thing on the chamber and this isi'm going to throw a question at
you we're celebrating a you knowmilestone next year as a chamber
(14:43):
How old do you think the KelownaChamber of Commerce is?
Oh, 25 years.
Next year will be our 120th
anniversary.
I know, I didn't want to go too
high.
I said 125, not 25.
That's incredible.
So yeah, I mean, you look at that.
So it's been around in some shapeor form for a long period of time.
Obviously, you know.
Well, for that, it's had to adapt
and change and in terms ofproviding value to its members.
But as a chamber, we're veryexcited for next year.
(15:03):
Already, there's a lot of talkabout the different ways we can
celebrate quite a significantmilestone, so to speak.
Congrats.
That's awesome.
I don't know how you have time forthat and legal and a couple of
kids like you're...
And Pontiac.
Pontiac.
That laugh was hard.
No. Well, you know what it does?I hinted earlier, Pusher Mitchell,
where I'm a partner at, it's onlybeen around for 53 years, I
believe, but has had alongstanding relationship with the
Chamber.
I mean, it does go hand in hand.
We don't just share a parking lot,as I like to say, but many lawyers
have served on the board, or Ibelieve we've had five or six past
presidents that have led the boardin that regard.
And especially as someone, I callmyself a business lawyer, I think
it goes hand in hand.
My expertise definitely
contributes nicely to a governanceboard, but at the same time, in
(15:29):
terms of advising my clients froma business perspective, to have
that sort of insight as to reallyhow all the levers work from a
chamber and a municipal standpointdefinitely helps.
Yeah, that's awesome.
On the legal side of things,
before we put you in the hot seatand just fire questions at you, do
you kind of want to let us knowany current legal updates or
(15:49):
anything in the pipeline that youmight want to fill us in on?
No, absolutely.
And so the overlap we all have is
real estate is part of mypractice.
I advise businesses really at thatcommercial element.
But on real estate side, bothresidential commercials, a big
part of my practice.
And so we're always seeing what's
changing or shifting in thatregard.
And two things I think I'd raise,and I appreciate you've had a lot
(16:12):
of great lawyers on in the past interms of a timestamp.
And here we are in October of2025.
You know, a big thing actually ismore on the administration end is
compliance.
And so.
Title insurance, which issomething that you see typically
in all transactions.
Now it's something that lenders
require as part of any sort offinancing per se.
The title insurance, which reallyensures title to the property.
We have to get various informationon the client, individual
(16:32):
information.
That's now really a FinTrack
regulated element.
And so when we provide that
information to the insurers, it'snot just to get the insurance
bound per se, but now the titleinsurers have to.
relay that information throughFinTrack.
And so I think as it can beappreciated, it's something that
is adding on anotheradministrative layer, so to speak,
another item that we have toaddress.
And so part of our role as legalcounsel, which gets the back end
of these transactions as we'regetting ready for closing, is you
(16:55):
just want to be proactive in termsof getting that information and
making sure that's not going to besomething that potentially holds
up a prospective closing.
As of October 1st, 2025.
Typically, my understanding, Mac,the realtors are not really
involved with the title insuranceaspect.
I mean, obviously, you have tohave your own hoops.
You have to jump through from anID verification standpoint.
I think the big thing is it reallydoes impact the lawyers because
we're the ones that work directlywith the title insurers to get the
(17:18):
policy.
Given now that that is a piece of
personal information that's nowgoing to be shared with a third
party and shared with FinTrack,it's something we actually have to
get approval from our client rightoff the bat.
And so it's something where... Ithink in the past, you weren't as
concerned about addressing thatitem right off the bat.
It's definitely something that'smore at the forefront now because,
you know, some transactions, youdon't have a lot of time turn
(17:42):
around between condition removaland closing, and you need title
insurance in place for closing ifyou have a lender.
I speak for all mortgage brokers.
We apologize on tight timeframes,
you know, especially this fall.
Yeah, you get.
certain promos by certain lendersthat you have to close within 30
days to get specific rates and youknow it puts the legal side under
a lot of pressure because you knowwe're constantly trying to push to
(18:05):
get instructions sent to you guysas soon as possible but there are
conditions that you know we haveto meet before they send those
instructions but if you have youknow piles more compliance
paperwork like title insurance youknow that's why you guys really
need that like 10 business daysyou know before closing right so
(18:25):
Yeah.
And like you said, Taylor, I mean,
every transaction is different interms of timeline.
Sometimes there is certain thingsthat will dictate the timeline per
se.
I mean, I would say a lot of the
information we're getting isinformation we'd be getting in any
event.
A lot of the compliance over the
past few years, and whether thatbe the law society, ID
verification requirements,disclosure from a transparency
perspective, these are all thingswe'd be collecting in some shape
(18:46):
or form anyway, but it's just nowthat extra what we're doing with
that information.
And that's not to...
That's not to scare clients inthat regard, but it just is part
of the process now in terms ofdoing a transaction.
Yeah.
What about GST?
You got anything interesting therefor us?
Everyone's favorite GST, right?And then in terms of whether it's
applicable or not.
You know, one thing that's sort of
come up, it's not here yet, butback in the spring, there was
(19:08):
actually discussion.
They knew first time home buyers
GST rebate.
And so typically on new builds per
se, there is GST.
payable.
PTT is not payable at certaintimes, property transfer tax.
And again, not a politician, butpart of the new carny coming in
and whatnot, there was someproposed legislation about first
-time homebuyers where reallybetween one and $1 .5 million new
homes, there could be aprospective GST rebate if you are
(19:29):
a new homebuyer.
Now that is not in effect yet.
So if you were buying a new hometoday and you are a first -time
homebuyer, you are paying GST onthat.
but it is something that has beenproposed with the house of commons
and theoretically if it does getpassed at some time i think that
would definitely help be acatalyst in terms of getting first
-time home buyers into the marketbecause oxygst is a part of the
(19:50):
consideration in terms of whatyour budget is per se Now you
nailed that, right?I'll say my favorite legal answer
is we don't know yet.
Now it depends on the legislation,
how it works, but you're rightbecause a rebate in essence is
really you're paying it andgetting the money back.
There is a first time home buyersrebate right now.
It's quite a bit smaller on newbuild homes, but that's how it
works is you are paying the GSTupfront typically, and then you
(20:11):
get a rebate after.
Would that work in this case?
I mean, again, you think if we'relooking at homes up to 1 .5, that
can be quite significant GST.
And so if the whole... thought
process from a policy standpointis to try to get more people in
the market and also sure thenpaying it up front and then
getting a rebate afterwards that'sjust that yeah yeah it should be
(20:33):
an exemption for sure from alending point of view generally
lenders don't finance the gstanyway so it wouldn't be like you
know the lender funds it and thenyou're getting that cash back as a
client like you have to come upout of pocket should be an
exemption for sure from a lendingpoint of view generally lenders
(20:54):
don't finance the gst anyway so itwouldn't be like you know the
lender funds it and then you'regetting that cash back as a client
like you have to come up out ofpocket No, we typically don't see
it unless it's incorporated in thepurchase contract of just the
price itself.
I mean, Pat, you've seen way more
transactions than I have.
Maybe I've got this wrong, but the
ones that I've done with GST, theclient has to come up out of their
(21:16):
own pocket.
It won't be facilitated from the
mortgage.
Yeah.
I mean, what will happen is from amore of a mechanical perspective,
(21:48):
when we're meeting with a client,you look at a statement of
adjustments, there is a separateline item for GST in that regard,
whatever it ends up being.
And so that is added.
I mean, obviously we factor inwhatever the mortgage proceeds
are, but that is certainly an itemthat is added on top in terms of
what the ultimate.
breakdown of cash that a client
has to bring in is it's likeproperty transfer tax right like
that's not going to be financedfrom a lender so recently i have
(22:09):
seen a few times as you're seeingmotivated developers that are
trying to move in recovery is theysell to collect the gst but
they'll be now offering a credit abuyer's incentive call it what you
will like property transfer taxright like that's not going to be
financed from a lender recently ihave seen a few times as you're
seeing motivated developers thatare trying to move in recovery is
they sell to collect the gst butthey'll be now offering a credit a
(22:31):
buyer's incentive call it what youwill That coincidentally equals
the 5 % value of the purchaseprice.
We have a line item for GST.
That GST is getting paid to seller
per se, but then they are gettinga credit, which washes it out.
That is something I've seen a fewtimes now quite recently in terms
of developers trying to moveproduct.
Yeah.
Hypothetically, what does a
transaction look like?Like a client gets an accepted
offer, you know, they send it overto you because...
You know, hopefully every realestate agent puts in a condition
for a legal review.
You open up a file with a client,
(22:52):
what are kind of the next steps?You nailed it there, nailed it
there, Taylor.
I mean, ideally there is a
condition or a due diligenceperiod that has a legal element to
it.
And really that is our opportunity
from the legal end to really lookat contract, make sure we're
comfortable with what that lookslike.
Look at title, make sure we'recomfortable with what title looks
like.
And the way I like to frame it to
our clients are, are you legallyinformed?
Can you make a legally informeddecision to move forward with this
(23:12):
purchase if you so choose?And so that's really our task to
really, you know, are there anyflags, anything we should raise?
Do we have all the information?And so that is our role during the
due diligence period.
Typically the client is also at
the same time doing theirinspection.
They're financing an order, makingsure they can get insurance on the
(23:32):
property and any other sort ofasks that go with that.
And so ideally we have thattimeframe and we work with the
client to then provide theinformation.
They decide then whether they wantto move forward or not.
If they do move forward and theyremove conditions or in the
alternative where they didn't haveany conditions to deal with, and
it was an unconditional offer.
Really at that point, then we
shift from the due diligenceaspect to facilitating the close.
And so what has to be done to geta closing in place?
Is there a lender we're workingwith and which we need
instructions and we're looking atconditions for financing and
whatnot.
And then working with the client,
getting that personal information,preparing the purchase documents,
finalizing a figure so they knowwhat they have to do leading up to
(23:54):
closing.
Yeah.
And I mean, during that process,you know, when we get a commitment
letter, we usually forward it toour legal teams that we're working
with and say.
you know, Hey, expect instructions
shortly, but to go back to thepurchase contract, any pro tips on
putting in little clauses, whetherthat's like a hold back, like
where do hold backs come in place?Like at what kind of monetary
value?Yeah.
Just kind of walk us through someof that.
(24:14):
No, it's a great question.
And, you know, looking at you
there, Matt, in terms of yourworld, a little bit per se, but
the standard form contract, Ithink does a good job of really
getting the general essence ofwhat a purchase transaction should
look like.
Of course, it's always those
additional items there that wehave to put some thought to in
terms of what that looks like.
And so I think the one you raised,
Taylor, was a hold back.
(24:35):
And, you know, typically you see a
hold back if there's some sort ofaction step, usually on a seller
for something to be done to theproperty.
And really the incentive is ofthat if said thing is not done by
closing or by a period of timeafter closing, money is held back
as sort of a mechanism to ensurethat that thing is done.
And so that's where you seeholdbacks is, you know, does
something have to be replaced?Does something have to be
(24:55):
repaired?Is there an outstanding permit or
something that is really neededfor the buyer to really fit their
intentions of what this propertyis and really what the transaction
is?Unfortunately, holdbacks, you
know, the essence makes sense.
We're holding back money until
something's done, but they getincredibly technical because
unfortunately what happens is dealcloses holdbacks in place.
and then what happens if sellerdoesn't do what they say they're
going to do or seller says whatthey're going to do and buyer
(25:17):
doesn't think it was done properlyand you really have nothing to
point to in the contract or theholdback language and so there
unfortunately are a lot ofdisputes or ongoing issues with
holdbacks if they're not draftedproperly or really just have fully
encompassing consideration for howthat process is to be played out
so definitely i tie that back tolegal like if we have a due
diligence period And that'ssomething the lawyer is looking at
as part of the contract.
(25:37):
Absolutely.
If there's holdback language, partof our role is to think that
through and sometimes wear ourworst case scenario hat, make sure
that that holdback language wouldaddress that properly.
You said something there that, Imean, it's kind of the
expectation, like the sellerthought they did something to the
right standard and the buyerthinks they didn't.
Like unit has to be professionallycleaned or carpets have to be
(25:58):
cleaned before, you know,possessions taken over.
Like, what is the recourse there?Because really it comes down to
the buyer comes in and says, Idon't think this was clean.
Show me a receipt.
And then they show him a receipt.
And then like, they're in this,I'm going to take you to small
claims for 400 bucks kind ofthing.
Like, obviously you guys areprobably not going to get involved
at that level.
That's kind of like where the
buyer and the seller agent, youknow, put their heads together and
(26:19):
see what they can resolve.
are clauses like you know a unit
being professionally cleaned likeis that reasonable to put in like
i would say definitely reasonableand any of these clauses that do
get in the contract i mean that isevidence to a court if it ever
goes there what was the intentionof the parties as it relates to
the transaction specifically anitem in the contract whether it be
the cleanliness of the home orotherwise but it's something that
(26:41):
you know on the buyer's side youdo have to would say definitely
reasonable and any of theseclauses that do get in the
contract i mean that is evidenceto a court if it ever goes there
what was the intention of theparties as it relates to the
transaction specifically an itemin the contract whether it be the
cleanliness of the home orotherwise but it's something that
(27:02):
you know on the buyer's side youdo have to advise your clients to
a certain extent as you get toclosing and obviously there's
terms in the contract and rightsand obligations of both sides and
there is a discussion of clientsthat this is what you're legally
entitled to contractually this iswhat is supposed to happen but
what happens if it's not and sofirst off for the vast majority i
(27:23):
would say 99 of these terms theyare not material In the sense that
you cannot back out of a deal ifthe home is not professionally
clean when they say it's going to.
Or there is some damage found to
the property.
I mean, material, it's got to go
to the essence of the contract.
Are you still getting the home you
said you were going to get?Or the contract contemplated you
getting?And so that is something that, you
(27:44):
know, client has to understand isthat if you do find out about an
issue, whether before closing oron the day of closing, it's not
material.
It doesn't give you an out.
You can't not close on that basis.
Yep.
They are.
I mean, you know, the walkthrough
can always be a good thing.
Like you said, you can be
proactive in that regard to seewhat are we getting them into here
as we get to closing.
And sometimes, you know, that can
(28:04):
lead to discussion between counselas to, hey, it's not clean
contracts as their client will bein breach of a term.
Can we negotiate a hold back atthat point?
Is this something that the selleris willing to engage in that
regard?But if not, if there's a refusal,
there's a rejection in that, andultimately you're going to close
on a deal.
And then it's up to the client, a
buyer at that point, if they wantto pursue a remedy.
I tell clients like, ultimatelyyou're going to have to decide how
(28:27):
much time, money, and emotion youwant to put into this.
I mean, so now some clients.
will pursue a $300 cleaning bill.
It's on principle and somethingthey're comfortable pursuing
through small claims and they'refully entitled to do that.
Other times, it depends on theprice tag.
If there's water damage that'sdiscovered once we're in there and
it was clearly contemplated or itwas a misrepresentation that could
cost tens of thousands of dollars,then obviously there's potentially
more of an appetite to pursue thatthrough legal means.
And so every client's different,but... I think part of our job as
part of the closing process isjust to be very clear of how that
works.
Because I think to your point,
Taylor and Matt, there's sometimesthis, unfortunately, as much as we
wish we were the Harvey Specter,the bulldog, we can't just
magically make the place clean andthey're going to pay for it on
(28:50):
closing, you know, for yourexample there.
Yeah.
And you assume that, you know,
parties are going to work in goodfaith.
There actually is a common lawdoctor and courts have looked at
this in terms of parties have tonegotiate and engage in a
transaction in good faith.
And sometimes that comes up too.
And they're going to say, well,I'm going to go after the other
side because they weren't actingin good faith.
(29:10):
And that can be appreciated.
But, you know, again, the
practical element of that and pushfor Mitchell, we're a full service
firm and we have litigators whocan help.
A bad faith argument, you know,you're looking at 10 to 20 grand
minimum just to start that claim,right?
Well, even if you win in smallclaims, then how do you then
collect?It's just... an ongoing thing
forever i think the point of thecontract from where i stand is two
people communicating expectationsright and if one person doesn't
(29:33):
kind of follow through with thatexactly how the other person
doesn't want to you know you kindof take it on the thin unless it's
yeah a bigger line item obviouslyi think you nailed it there taylor
(29:53):
it is and i mean we're we almostall sound a bit jaded here talking
about the process but i thinkcircling back to really our role
is just to ensure our clientunderstands that process that the
pros and the cons think you nailedit there taylor it is and i mean
we're we almost all sound a bitjaded here talking about the
process but i think circling backto really our role is just to
(30:14):
ensure our client understands thatprocess that the pros and the cons
And I mean, ultimately they candecide how they want to go forward
if that situation were to arise.
And obviously with good advisors,
with the realtors, if they canidentify an issue as part of the
initial contract stage and goingback to that hold back language,
that's something that's alwaysgood if the lawyer can get
involved in that too.
And you can kind of work through
(30:35):
those different iterations of whatcould happen and making sure that
the client is protected there.
You nailed it, right?
I mean, we're here to try tofacilitate what the parties have
agreed to, but no, intentional orotherwise, things happen.
I mean, unfortunately, one thatis, I'd say, more on the extreme
side is one of the seller's mainobligations when they convey a
property pursuant to the standardform contract is they will provide
clear title.
That means any financial
encumbrance or otherwise will bedischarged.
(30:56):
Now, as much as they arecontractually obligated to do
that, there are some rarecircumstances where that actually
does become an issue and theyfinancially can't.
And now they are in breach oftheir own contract, which they
said they're going to do.
And that's something you have to
(31:19):
deal with.
And so, you know, you don't see
that typically when there's onemortgage on title, but sometimes
you pull a title and there's liensand judgments and multiple
mortgages and you sort of get asense.
And again, the conversation thereto a client is contractually
seller has to do that, but thereis a possibility that this could
be an issue.
Yeah.
Well, and that's an interestingpoint, especially in the last
couple of years, if you know, youbought and.
2022 and you wanted to sell a yearlater could be short on that for
(31:40):
sure absolutely right i'm nottalking the foreclosure aspect
where there actually is a lenderthat's closed but i would say the
seller's very close to that andnow they've come to the really the
(32:04):
closing and financially what eachcharge holder is saying may need
to clear title you're counting thenumbers i'm going we're not going
to get there and so that's a toughone yeah yeah right i'm not
talking the foreclosure aspectwhere there actually is a lender
that's closed but i would say theseller's very close to that and
now they've come to the really theclosing and financially what each
charge holder is saying may needto clear title you're counting the
(32:26):
numbers i'm going we're not goingto get there and so that's a tough
one Well, in that regard, Ben, doyou do a legal review for a
seller?And is that part of that as well
to say like, hey, we're going topull title and can you provide
like a current mortgage statement?Like you're getting ahead of that
before like subjects are removedfrom the buyer.
There certainly has beencircumstances where we're
providing a due diligence reviewor review of a contract to a
seller.
Often realtor has put in a. a
seller's legal condition andusually because there's some other
strange thing going on or theywant to make sure it's kind of a
fail safe.
Often we're getting the sale
contract after conditions havebeen removed and really it is
(32:47):
binding at that point where we'resaying, hey, you have to do this,
right?But I've said to my clients and.
The realtors I work with that, youknow, even if the deal is
conditional and we're on theseller side, send it to us.
Like, let's say make sure there'sno conflict.
And just, is there anything thatwe see based on a quick review
(33:30):
just to make sure that there is nosurprises at closing, which I
think is what we're trying toavoid there.
Yeah.
I want to ask one more question
and this is hopefully more to helpthe conversation with real estate
agents and mortgage brokers andlawyers so we can all be on the
same page.
Do you want to talk a little bit
about price reduction and creditat closing?
(33:51):
Because, you know, I get this.
not often, but say like one out of
20 deals.
And I just had it, you know, a
week ago where, you know, ScotiaUnderwriter called me on day of
funding and was like, hey, why isthe purchase price, you know, $5
,000 less than what you originallysubmitted?
I'm like, no idea.
So I have to reach out to the real
estate agent and say, oh, youknow, found out on a home
(34:11):
inspection that the furnace wasbad.
So we did a price reduction.
Well, now like everyone's
scrambling last minute.
You know, and it was okay on that
deal because the down payment was,I think like 30%.
So we're not on that border oflike insured or uninsured.
But how does that look in yourterms?
Like how much of a pain in the assis that for you?
No, absolutely.
And it really is something that
almost touches all parties herefrom a real estate agent to broker
(34:33):
to lawyer there per se.
I mean, on our end of the back end
is obviously we have a contractthat we look at and big part of
that is purchase price.
You know, what do we have to
factor in terms of crunching thefinal numbers if something
happens?your example you know price
reduction is where parties haveagreed that the purchase price has
gone down or up is a reductionit's gone down and you know that
matters for a couple reasonsnumber one from a purchaser
perspective you pay propertytransfer tax on fair market value
and so your purchase price is amillion dollars you are paying
property transfer tax on a milliondollars you do not factor in the
adjustments so to speak soutilities and taxes and things
(35:11):
like that you factor in for thesake of closing but from a fair
market value of what that propertyhas conveyed for the purchase
price remains and so if you reducethe purchase price you are
reducing how much you pay from aproperty transfer tax perspective
which is beneficial for a buyerhowever that can have negative
impacts on what you've beenapproved for from a mortgage
because part of the lender'saspect is depending on the lender
(35:35):
they're going to have certain asksor requirements and It does
happen, Taylor, to your point thatcertain lenders will say, you
know, if there is a pricereduction or a change in price, we
must know because that mightimpact the loan to value ratio or
what they're looking at on theirend.
And part of, you know, residentialconveyance as lawyer, we act for
buyer, but we also act for thelender in terms of registering
that mortgage on title.
And so we are obligated if we're
(35:56):
aware of a price reduction vis -a-vis amendment to the contract, we
have to share that with the lenderand that can potentially cause
issues from a funding perspective.
Well, fair market value.
And so, I mean, appraisals you getfor the sake of your mortgage or
approval might be different interms of what the fair market
value is.
I mean, ultimately, fair market
value in the open market is whatif two parties agreed to for this
transaction.
That's what's documented in the
contract.
And so you can have that in an
appraisal before or after,whatever that is that's different.
(36:19):
But ultimately, if the partiesthen agree upon a reduction, they
amend it, then that's obviouslythe new fair market value for the
sake of what that property isbeing conveyed for in that
transaction.
To your other point there, Taylor,
and so what you often see, andthis kind of ties back into the
holdback issue we talked abouttoo, is, you know, for various
reasons, something has to berepaired.
Something has to be replaced andthe parties agree, you know, it's
(36:42):
just going to be easier.
The buyer says, let me do it.
We agree it's going to cost $5,000.
Give me $5 ,000 and I'll do it.
And so parties will do that.
And if it's worded, it has acredit.
The buyer will be credited $5 ,000as part of closing for the sake of
this specific thing.
They're still paying the purchase
price.
The fair market value, what the
property has been conveyed for isstill original purchase price, but
it's treated arguably as anadjustment as opposed to a
(37:04):
reduction in the purchase price.
Yeah, I've had difficulties with
that in the past, lender tolender.
And you know, one of them.
again, came up at time of funding,
but fortunately, you know, we havegreat lawyers in the Okanagan, so
we're able to get on top of it.
But one comment that comes from
lenders is... I don't recall thatone, recall that one, Taylor.
I'm thinking of that deal.
Yeah, that was at your wife's
firm.
Fortunately, they were pretty good
(37:25):
too.
You know, they look at it as
incentivizing... the sale of aproperty.
So lenders obviously don't want tosee that, even though it's a very
small amount.
And then the other one that we
struggle with, it goes back tothat insured mortgage.
You know, like if you're getting acash back, essentially the lender,
you know, let's say it's on that20 % down payment, but you're
(37:46):
getting the cash back.
Well, you know, you're less than
20 % down because effectively thelender is financing a larger
portion and you're walking awaywith, with less down payment.
So I've had personally a hardertime with the credits or cash
back.
So I, I always encourage the price
reduction.
it's harder for the client
obviously because they're thinkinggreat i want to cash back of five
(38:07):
grand instead of a five thousanddollar price reduction you know
they're two very different thingsbecause one you have the money in
your hand and the other it justreduces your mortgage amount so
when you're looking at replacinglike a furnace you know it'd be
nicer if it was done prior toclosing so we don't have to deal
with any of that and then theother little caveat to all that is
if there's a price reduction thelender wants to know why there's a
(38:29):
price reduction if it's because ofmold Oh my God, we're in a heap of
trouble.
Like now we need a remediation
report and we got to make sure thelender is okay with it.
So like, it's just a conversationthat needs to be brought to
everyone's attention sooner thanlater.
(38:51):
And, you know, loop everyone in sowe can not have those issues.
I think for all parties, and Imean, Taylor, you kind of stole my
thunder there, but you nailed it.
I mean, I think there's a big
piece of this is the communicationis that if there is something
coming down the line or reductionor an adjustment, whatever you
want to call it, I think allparties, advisors really got to be
on the same page for the exactreasons you brought up.
And, you know, on my end too, as alawyer, and again, I bring up that
(39:15):
dual role.
We are acting for lender, not to
say we're trying to pull a fastone at all with the lender, but
like really what we as a lawyerare always looking at when we get
our loan packages.
What are the instructions?
What is the lender telling us?And often, to your point, they are
going to be very clear to say, wemust be notified if there is a
price reduction, or we must benotified if there's amendment or
terms.
And so we're obligated at that
point to notify them.
(39:35):
And so to your point there, it can
come as a surprise upon closing,we realize that there's been an
amendment or something's happened.
And whether it's the lawyer not
talking to broker or real estate,you know, whatever way it goes,
it's important that we're all.
talking throughout the process.
I think that's probably the bestpoint to leave this whole
conversation on is, I think that'sprobably the best point to leave
(40:01):
this whole conversation on is, youknow, have the team around you,
make sure everyone's in constantcommunication.
And even with, you know, like whenI send you guys a commitment
letter, I know that's like barebones, right?
Like I don't see the instructionsthat are sent.
So it, you know, it's obviouslypages and pages longer.
So yeah, for the client.
you know, have a good team,
surround yourself with thosepeople, and then just be
transparent and, you know, let theprofessionals kind of take it from
(40:22):
there.
Yeah, we're kind of running out of
time here, Pat.
Absolutely loved having you on,
man.
Thank you so much.
Yeah, I'm interested into hearingmore about the Chamber of Commerce
as well and your guys' eventcoming up.
Absolutely.
I noticed in closing, neither of
you two are nominees, so we'llhave to work on that for next
year.
Yeah.
Yeah, maybe I'll nominate Matt.
Fantastic.
All across the board.
Absolutely.
Well, thanks so much for coming onagain, buddy.
(40:42):
And yeah, we'll chat to you soon.
Take care.
Thanks.
Welcome back to the Colonial RealEstate Podcast.
(00:01):
I'm your mortgage broker host,Taylor Atkinson.
Drywall dust, I love it.
Yeah, how's it going over there?
You're on time and on budget likeall renovations.
(00:27):
I mean, it's a value add for yourclients.
Like, you know, it's nice to havea real estate agent that has done
renovations or gone through likepermanent process and can kind of
understand some of the painpoints.
Yeah.
It's harder like when you're
living in the home, but it's notreally affecting your living
(00:55):
conditions and your kids.
Yeah, totally.
Yeah.
And you guys are converting it to
(01:16):
a suite, right?A basement suite?
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, your kitchen in the
main is awesome, but it's likethat was pre -kids and...
You know, it's like something thatyou have a lot of passion about
because you're going to be usingit like immediately.
You wear a basement suite.
You're like, huh.
Yeah.
Well, good luck, man.
(01:36):
Yeah.
Speaking of luck, wearing a Blue
Jays hat today.
We're heading down actually
tomorrow to see game four.
So they need some luck at this
point.
They're not playing as they should
be.
They just need to start hitting
the ball.
So I'm confident they'll win too
(02:00):
in Seattle.
And then they'll bring it back to
Toronto for Game 7.
Okay, well, we want to jump into
this show.
We recorded with Patrick Bobbin
from Pusher & Mitchell and KelownaChamber of Commerce.
So with Pusher & Mitchell, he's alawyer there, partner, and then
Chamber of Commerce, he's vicepresident on the board.
(02:21):
I work a lot with Pat and he isawesome.
And I think one of the big thingsthat I want to communicate, and
we've talked about this a bunch onthe show before, is like you
really want a team ofprofessionals that are on the same
page.
They communicate with each other
like they're working collectively.
get the job done you know we have
some great lawyers in town to dothese transactions but yeah i've
worked with pat a ton and uh yeahhis team's awesome i can't say
(02:44):
enough about them so just findsomeone you trust and you feel is
going to get the job done becauseyou do not want things blowing up
at the last minute and somebody'slaw firm not being able to handle
it so maybe you can speak to thatas well because i know yeah times
get a little stressful at the endof it Yeah.
Prusher & Mitchell is a huge firm.
Like they do everything.
They've been in Kelowna for 50years or something.
(03:05):
And yeah, they're involved in thecommunity as well.
(03:32):
Like, you know, for Pat to be inwith the Chamber of Commerce, like
working with small businesses kindof has his finger on the pulse.
So I brought up some awesomepoints near the end of the show
too.
Like pretty interesting
suggestions on clauses or how tostructure deals.
So yeah, I think well worth thelisten.
You guys are going to enjoy theshow.
I don't know if he has time forit, man.
Like he's got two young kids aswell.
(03:52):
His wife's a lawyer who's anamazing lawyer as well.
They're doing great things in thecommunity, but yeah, I can't say
enough good things about that.
Like he's just been awesome to
work with.
So yeah.
Okay, Patrick Bobbin, it's been along time coming trying to get you
on the show, but glad we couldsync up schedules.
How are you?I'm doing well.
(04:13):
Thanks, Taylor.
Matt, it's great to be on here.
And it has been a long timecoming, but really looking forward
(04:53):
to it.
I think good busy guests are hard
to get.
So yeah, you tick the box.
Maybe we'll just jump straightinto, I mean, you kind of have two
roles that we wanted to discusstoday.
And one is on the Chamber ofCommerce.
So can you kind of give us a highlevel view of...
Yeah, what your role is there andwhat is the Chamber of Commerce?
No, absolutely.
Great question in that regard.
And for those who don't know,Kelowna Chamber of Commerce,
(05:13):
business community is really whatthat is.
And so the Chamber is wherebusinesses of all sizes, from sole
proprietorship to hundreds ofemployees, can be a member in
terms of what the Chamberprovides.
I would say are three main things.
Advocacy, benefits.
and connections and so dependingon what a business is looking for
whether it be all three or one ofthose things the chamber provides
that where our intent our revisionis to be the catalyst of the
(05:35):
business community and so my rolei'm a director it's a volunteer
board but typically there is alawyer or lawyers on that board we
actually have three right now topracticing the smart ones, not
practicing, but something that myfirm push for Mitchell has been
involved with for a long period oftime.
We typically have a lawyer on thatboard.
And so it's my turn right now.
(05:56):
Like you must have your finger on
the pulse in terms of smallbusinesses in Kelowna.
Like what is the current vibe?Are people worried economically?
Are people thriving?Do people see opportunities?
Like, yeah, what are thediscussions you guys are having?
No, it's a good question.
It really is something that it's
not a one size fits all, but.
A big part of our model is we
intend to be the voice for thebusiness community.
(06:16):
And so really, I'd say a big thingwe do is listen.
We always say, what is keeping youup at night to our members?
And there's, we have over athousand members.
So you think of the businesscommunity, I mean, that impacts a
lot of different sectors.
I think what you see right now,
and in a lot of ways, notsurprising, but it's just that
business uncertainty.
You look at the States, what's
(06:37):
going on down there and the rippleeffect that it has up here.
You look at rising costs.
A lot of business owners, big and
smaller saying, my margins areshrinking and shrinking and
shrinking.
Expenses are going up.
How do I keep the lights on goingforward?
So while there is a lot ofoptimism and there's a lot of
great success stories in thistown, I do think our business
community is still very much inthat cloud of uncertainty in terms
of going to 2026 and what thatlooks like going forward.
And so the Chamber's role isreally, going back to those three
(07:00):
things, advocacy.
What are the issues?
What are keeping our members up atnight?
How can we relay that to theproper channels?
Is that a municipal issue?Is that something that we should
be going to the federal level,proposing a policy or trying to
get a distinguished speaker in totalk about that issue?
Those are all things as thechamber we try to facilitate.
That's awesome.
And so I guess in the last couple
(07:21):
of years, I'm just kind ofassuming, but have we seen kind of
tourism go down, you know, forestfires, Airbnb, stuff like that?
Like, is that what is alsoimpacting small businesses or do
you guys have some of that data?yeah there's a lot of good
intersections so Tourism Kelownais really focused on the tourism
side of things but we very muchwork hand in hand and there's a
lot of issues that are relevantfor their members and our members
(07:42):
and we also share a lot of membersas you can appreciate there in
that regard so I think certainlyyou look at this past year and
especially with the states per seand you know that's a big part of
our tourism there was concernthere now obviously I think on the
flip side that did promote crossjurisdiction in terms of Canada
and Canadians coming out this way,which is good.
But like you said, there's alwaysbarriers we have to consider here.
There's the short term rentals,which is a big part of our
(08:04):
community.
And our mayor actually spoke about
that a couple of weeks ago at oneof our chamber luncheons and
hurdles in that regard.
And we're always asking what more
can we do to promote tourismwithin the city?
You kind of hit a buzz topicthere.
And so one of the things thechamber does at both a provincial
and a federal level is promotepolicy.
So chambers throughout BC once ayear will go to an annual general
(08:24):
meeting of BC chambers wherecertain policies can be promoted.
And that actually happens at thefederal level as well.
It actually happened last weekwhere our president and our CEO
went to Mississauga and were atthe federal level there where they
can promote certain policies.
And so one of the ones that we
have been pushing for a longperiod of time is that inter
-provincial cross -border trade.
(08:49):
And obviously the barriers that we
see, you think of the wineindustry per se, or alcohol in
that regard.
And so I think we've been
hammering on that in addition tomany other chambers and entities,
but that's been something we'vebeen trying to push for years.
And obviously with everythinghappening in the States.
it does look like there's been alittle bit of movement there now
obviously uh the federal level youhad to get 13 provinces and
(09:13):
territories on board there but wedo feel that locally that's been
an issue that we've been on top ofand something we've been quite
vocal about and hopefully we'restarting to see some movement
there yeah you think it would havehappened like at a much more rapid
pace like you think you knowtariffs would have been the the
catalyst to like get innerprovincial trading going here you
know but it hasn't come tofruition you think it would have
(09:34):
happened like at a much more rapidpace like you think you know
tariffs would have been the thecatalyst to like get inner
provincial trading going here youknow but it hasn't come to
fruition No, I mean, again, asmuch as it's something that we
advocate for at a local level interms of a policy, it does work
its way up.
I think right now it's really
between the federal level and allyour provinces trying to figure
out how to make that work.
(09:54):
I'm not a politician by any means,
but I think it'd be appreciatedthat a lot of moving parts there.
But I think there's a generalconsensus that it's something that
has to get figured out.
It's just we got to get there.
You know, Matt, I think it's oneof those things too, is like you
said, it's always the ripple orthe unintended consequences or how
that impacts other industries.
We obviously look at tourism again
and how, especially in thesummertime, short -term rentals
provided an alternative avenue foraccommodations, which obviously I
would say has a good impact onsurrounding business, whatnot.
And again, as a chamber, we alsohave to appreciate that we have
many members who are hotels orother forms of accommodation.
(10:15):
So you're trying to find thatbalance between all the various
considerations per se.
But another avenue is short -term
rentals at time would provideother accommodations for work
reasons, whether they're here fora certain period of time to do
their job or whatnot.
And so with the restrictions we
have, that does add another hurdleon that end, which can have
(10:49):
impacts from an economicperspective as well.
On our end, I'm kind of wearing mylegal hat as well in terms of just
the businesses I advise per se.
You know, Kelowna, obviously in
the greater Okanagan, a lot of thefocus is on tourism, but year
round.
a lot of those issues don't go
away and so i know the chamber isa big proponent of shop local and
(11:09):
contribute to the local economynot just in the four summer months
but year round i think back toyour question there it's
definitely something that impactsus year round and on multiple
levels including the restaurantsabsolutely do you see the chamber
like when everyone's you see thechamber like when everyone's
profitable and, you know, economyis good on the small business
side.
Does that correlate directly to
(11:30):
like you guys doing moretransactions and closing on the
legal side, like real estate'sbooming as well?
They kind of go hand in hand or isthere any connection between those
(11:55):
two?I think, think, I mean, honestly,
a good economy is good for all,you know, obviously on the, you
know, the chamber and we want tosee business thrive at all levels.
Our main viewpoint there is abusiness is good.
That's going to have a rippleeffect on various professions per
se.
I mean, look at the three of us in
our profession.
As real estate goes up, it
benefits all three of ours.
And so I do see that here.
(12:16):
I mean, when you look back toCOVID or in times of uncertainty,
I think on the transactional side,you do see a bit more creativity
per se.
Things like vendor financing or
other ways of potentially gettingdeals done if you have a motivated
buyer and seller.
But certainly if the economy is
good and business is doing well.
That definitely is going to have a
positive effect on the legal sidefrom a transaction point of view.
(12:37):
Maybe to kind of wrap up on thecommerce side, how do people
connect with you, small businessowners, or maybe not you
specifically, but how do they getinvolved in the Chamber of
Commerce and what does that looklike?
The Chamber is a not -profitorganization, so we do have a
small team led by our CEO ofGeorge Greenwood.
Chamber is a not -profitorganization, so we do have a
small team led by our CEO ofGeorge Greenwood.
And I will say our team is smallin number, but they all punch well
(12:59):
above their weight class.
The work they do on a daily basis
is unbelievable from anoperational perspective.
perspective and a lot of bigevents that we host whether it be
luncheons or educational events orspeaker series you know our big
event actually at the end of thismonth is the business excellence
awards which is always a fantasticnight to really celebrate a local
business there's over 16 awardsthat are presented and I've been
(13:19):
going for a couple years now thatevent is always so amazing to see
the type of business out there theawards are quite diverse in terms
of the categories typically whathappens is your finalists each one
for each award it's a long nightBut you do get a video overview of
what each business does and theirstory, their individual story.
It's inspiring, actually, just tohear the different stories and
different successes our communityhas in that regard.
Those are operations.
And then from a board governance
model, myself, in addition toother directors, were there to
really guide the chamber from agovernance perspective.
And so I'm the vice president thisyear.
(13:41):
That's certainly something that ifpeople are interested, they have
just general questions on how thechamber works or if they want to.
get involved as a member or as avolunteer i mean they can
certainly reach out to me or justreach out to our ceo george in
general through our websiteawesome man i love it yeah and
that is one thing like i see inkelowna and maybe you know we live
(14:02):
in a bit of a bubble and peoplearen't so aware but like there are
some awesome entrepreneurs inokanagan is such a good community
that way so yeah it must beexciting to see them grow i will
finish with one more thing on thechamber and this is i'm going to
throw a question at you we'recelebrating a you know milestone
next year as a chamber man i loveit yeah and that is one thing like
(14:22):
i see in kelowna and maybe youknow we live in a bit of a bubble
and people aren't so aware butlike there are some awesome
entrepreneurs in okanagan is sucha good community that way so yeah
it must be exciting to see themgrow will finish with one more
thing on the chamber and this isi'm going to throw a question at
you we're celebrating a you knowmilestone next year as a chamber
(14:43):
How old do you think the KelownaChamber of Commerce is?
Oh, 25 years.
Next year will be our 120th
anniversary.
I know, I didn't want to go too
high.
I said 125, not 25.
That's incredible.
So yeah, I mean, you look at that.
So it's been around in some shapeor form for a long period of time.
Obviously, you know.
Well, for that, it's had to adapt
and change and in terms ofproviding value to its members.
But as a chamber, we're veryexcited for next year.
(15:03):
Already, there's a lot of talkabout the different ways we can
celebrate quite a significantmilestone, so to speak.
Congrats.
That's awesome.
I don't know how you have time forthat and legal and a couple of
kids like you're...
And Pontiac.
Pontiac.
That laugh was hard.
No. Well, you know what it does?I hinted earlier, Pusher Mitchell,
where I'm a partner at, it's onlybeen around for 53 years, I
believe, but has had alongstanding relationship with the
Chamber.
I mean, it does go hand in hand.
We don't just share a parking lot,as I like to say, but many lawyers
have served on the board, or Ibelieve we've had five or six past
presidents that have led the boardin that regard.
And especially as someone, I callmyself a business lawyer, I think
it goes hand in hand.
My expertise definitely
contributes nicely to a governanceboard, but at the same time, in
(15:29):
terms of advising my clients froma business perspective, to have
that sort of insight as to reallyhow all the levers work from a
chamber and a municipal standpointdefinitely helps.
Yeah, that's awesome.
On the legal side of things,
before we put you in the hot seatand just fire questions at you, do
you kind of want to let us knowany current legal updates or
(15:49):
anything in the pipeline that youmight want to fill us in on?
No, absolutely.
And so the overlap we all have is
real estate is part of mypractice.
I advise businesses really at thatcommercial element.
But on real estate side, bothresidential commercials, a big
part of my practice.
And so we're always seeing what's
changing or shifting in thatregard.
And two things I think I'd raise,and I appreciate you've had a lot
(16:12):
of great lawyers on in the past interms of a timestamp.
And here we are in October of2025.
You know, a big thing actually ismore on the administration end is
compliance.
And so.
Title insurance, which issomething that you see typically
in all transactions.
Now it's something that lenders
require as part of any sort offinancing per se.
The title insurance, which reallyensures title to the property.
We have to get various informationon the client, individual
(16:32):
information.
That's now really a FinTrack
regulated element.
And so when we provide that
information to the insurers, it'snot just to get the insurance
bound per se, but now the titleinsurers have to.
relay that information throughFinTrack.
And so I think as it can beappreciated, it's something that
is adding on anotheradministrative layer, so to speak,
another item that we have toaddress.
And so part of our role as legalcounsel, which gets the back end
of these transactions as we'regetting ready for closing, is you
(16:55):
just want to be proactive in termsof getting that information and
making sure that's not going to besomething that potentially holds
up a prospective closing.
As of October 1st, 2025.
Typically, my understanding, Mac,the realtors are not really
involved with the title insuranceaspect.
I mean, obviously, you have tohave your own hoops.
You have to jump through from anID verification standpoint.
I think the big thing is it reallydoes impact the lawyers because
we're the ones that work directlywith the title insurers to get the
(17:18):
policy.
Given now that that is a piece of
personal information that's nowgoing to be shared with a third
party and shared with FinTrack,it's something we actually have to
get approval from our client rightoff the bat.
And so it's something where... Ithink in the past, you weren't as
concerned about addressing thatitem right off the bat.
It's definitely something that'smore at the forefront now because,
you know, some transactions, youdon't have a lot of time turn
(17:42):
around between condition removaland closing, and you need title
insurance in place for closing ifyou have a lender.
I speak for all mortgage brokers.
We apologize on tight timeframes,
you know, especially this fall.
Yeah, you get.
certain promos by certain lendersthat you have to close within 30
days to get specific rates and youknow it puts the legal side under
a lot of pressure because you knowwe're constantly trying to push to
(18:05):
get instructions sent to you guysas soon as possible but there are
conditions that you know we haveto meet before they send those
instructions but if you have youknow piles more compliance
paperwork like title insurance youknow that's why you guys really
need that like 10 business daysyou know before closing right so
(18:25):
Yeah.
And like you said, Taylor, I mean,
every transaction is different interms of timeline.
Sometimes there is certain thingsthat will dictate the timeline per
se.
I mean, I would say a lot of the
information we're getting isinformation we'd be getting in any
event.
A lot of the compliance over the
past few years, and whether thatbe the law society, ID
verification requirements,disclosure from a transparency
perspective, these are all thingswe'd be collecting in some shape
(18:46):
or form anyway, but it's just nowthat extra what we're doing with
that information.
And that's not to...
That's not to scare clients inthat regard, but it just is part
of the process now in terms ofdoing a transaction.
Yeah.
What about GST?
You got anything interesting therefor us?
Everyone's favorite GST, right?And then in terms of whether it's
applicable or not.
You know, one thing that's sort of
come up, it's not here yet, butback in the spring, there was
(19:08):
actually discussion.
They knew first time home buyers
GST rebate.
And so typically on new builds per
se, there is GST.
payable.
PTT is not payable at certaintimes, property transfer tax.
And again, not a politician, butpart of the new carny coming in
and whatnot, there was someproposed legislation about first
-time homebuyers where reallybetween one and $1 .5 million new
homes, there could be aprospective GST rebate if you are
(19:29):
a new homebuyer.
Now that is not in effect yet.
So if you were buying a new hometoday and you are a first -time
homebuyer, you are paying GST onthat.
but it is something that has beenproposed with the house of commons
and theoretically if it does getpassed at some time i think that
would definitely help be acatalyst in terms of getting first
-time home buyers into the marketbecause oxygst is a part of the
(19:50):
consideration in terms of whatyour budget is per se Now you
nailed that, right?I'll say my favorite legal answer
is we don't know yet.
Now it depends on the legislation,
how it works, but you're rightbecause a rebate in essence is
really you're paying it andgetting the money back.
There is a first time home buyersrebate right now.
It's quite a bit smaller on newbuild homes, but that's how it
works is you are paying the GSTupfront typically, and then you
(20:11):
get a rebate after.
Would that work in this case?
I mean, again, you think if we'relooking at homes up to 1 .5, that
can be quite significant GST.
And so if the whole... thought
process from a policy standpointis to try to get more people in
the market and also sure thenpaying it up front and then
getting a rebate afterwards that'sjust that yeah yeah it should be
(20:33):
an exemption for sure from alending point of view generally
lenders don't finance the gstanyway so it wouldn't be like you
know the lender funds it and thenyou're getting that cash back as a
client like you have to come upout of pocket should be an
exemption for sure from a lendingpoint of view generally lenders
(20:54):
don't finance the gst anyway so itwouldn't be like you know the
lender funds it and then you'regetting that cash back as a client
like you have to come up out ofpocket No, we typically don't see
it unless it's incorporated in thepurchase contract of just the
price itself.
I mean, Pat, you've seen way more
transactions than I have.
Maybe I've got this wrong, but the
ones that I've done with GST, theclient has to come up out of their
(21:16):
own pocket.
It won't be facilitated from the
mortgage.
Yeah.
I mean, what will happen is from amore of a mechanical perspective,
(21:48):
when we're meeting with a client,you look at a statement of
adjustments, there is a separateline item for GST in that regard,
whatever it ends up being.
And so that is added.
I mean, obviously we factor inwhatever the mortgage proceeds
are, but that is certainly an itemthat is added on top in terms of
what the ultimate.
breakdown of cash that a client
has to bring in is it's likeproperty transfer tax right like
that's not going to be financedfrom a lender so recently i have
(22:09):
seen a few times as you're seeingmotivated developers that are
trying to move in recovery is theysell to collect the gst but
they'll be now offering a credit abuyer's incentive call it what you
will like property transfer taxright like that's not going to be
financed from a lender recently ihave seen a few times as you're
seeing motivated developers thatare trying to move in recovery is
they sell to collect the gst butthey'll be now offering a credit a
(22:31):
buyer's incentive call it what youwill That coincidentally equals
the 5 % value of the purchaseprice.
We have a line item for GST.
That GST is getting paid to seller
per se, but then they are gettinga credit, which washes it out.
That is something I've seen a fewtimes now quite recently in terms
of developers trying to moveproduct.
Yeah.
Hypothetically, what does a
transaction look like?Like a client gets an accepted
offer, you know, they send it overto you because...
You know, hopefully every realestate agent puts in a condition
for a legal review.
You open up a file with a client,
(22:52):
what are kind of the next steps?You nailed it there, nailed it
there, Taylor.
I mean, ideally there is a
condition or a due diligenceperiod that has a legal element to
it.
And really that is our opportunity
from the legal end to really lookat contract, make sure we're
comfortable with what that lookslike.
Look at title, make sure we'recomfortable with what title looks
like.
And the way I like to frame it to
our clients are, are you legallyinformed?
Can you make a legally informeddecision to move forward with this
(23:12):
purchase if you so choose?And so that's really our task to
really, you know, are there anyflags, anything we should raise?
Do we have all the information?And so that is our role during the
due diligence period.
Typically the client is also at
the same time doing theirinspection.
They're financing an order, makingsure they can get insurance on the
(23:32):
property and any other sort ofasks that go with that.
And so ideally we have thattimeframe and we work with the
client to then provide theinformation.
They decide then whether they wantto move forward or not.
If they do move forward and theyremove conditions or in the
alternative where they didn't haveany conditions to deal with, and
it was an unconditional offer.
Really at that point, then we
shift from the due diligenceaspect to facilitating the close.
And so what has to be done to geta closing in place?
Is there a lender we're workingwith and which we need
instructions and we're looking atconditions for financing and
whatnot.
And then working with the client,
getting that personal information,preparing the purchase documents,
finalizing a figure so they knowwhat they have to do leading up to
(23:54):
closing.
Yeah.
And I mean, during that process,you know, when we get a commitment
letter, we usually forward it toour legal teams that we're working
with and say.
you know, Hey, expect instructions
shortly, but to go back to thepurchase contract, any pro tips on
putting in little clauses, whetherthat's like a hold back, like
where do hold backs come in place?Like at what kind of monetary
value?Yeah.
Just kind of walk us through someof that.
(24:14):
No, it's a great question.
And, you know, looking at you
there, Matt, in terms of yourworld, a little bit per se, but
the standard form contract, Ithink does a good job of really
getting the general essence ofwhat a purchase transaction should
look like.
Of course, it's always those
additional items there that wehave to put some thought to in
terms of what that looks like.
And so I think the one you raised,
Taylor, was a hold back.
(24:35):
And, you know, typically you see a
hold back if there's some sort ofaction step, usually on a seller
for something to be done to theproperty.
And really the incentive is ofthat if said thing is not done by
closing or by a period of timeafter closing, money is held back
as sort of a mechanism to ensurethat that thing is done.
And so that's where you seeholdbacks is, you know, does
something have to be replaced?Does something have to be
(24:55):
repaired?Is there an outstanding permit or
something that is really neededfor the buyer to really fit their
intentions of what this propertyis and really what the transaction
is?Unfortunately, holdbacks, you
know, the essence makes sense.
We're holding back money until
something's done, but they getincredibly technical because
unfortunately what happens is dealcloses holdbacks in place.
and then what happens if sellerdoesn't do what they say they're
going to do or seller says whatthey're going to do and buyer
(25:17):
doesn't think it was done properlyand you really have nothing to
point to in the contract or theholdback language and so there
unfortunately are a lot ofdisputes or ongoing issues with
holdbacks if they're not draftedproperly or really just have fully
encompassing consideration for howthat process is to be played out
so definitely i tie that back tolegal like if we have a due
diligence period And that'ssomething the lawyer is looking at
as part of the contract.
(25:37):
Absolutely.
If there's holdback language, partof our role is to think that
through and sometimes wear ourworst case scenario hat, make sure
that that holdback language wouldaddress that properly.
You said something there that, Imean, it's kind of the
expectation, like the sellerthought they did something to the
right standard and the buyerthinks they didn't.
Like unit has to be professionallycleaned or carpets have to be
(25:58):
cleaned before, you know,possessions taken over.
Like, what is the recourse there?Because really it comes down to
the buyer comes in and says, Idon't think this was clean.
Show me a receipt.
And then they show him a receipt.
And then like, they're in this,I'm going to take you to small
claims for 400 bucks kind ofthing.
Like, obviously you guys areprobably not going to get involved
at that level.
That's kind of like where the
buyer and the seller agent, youknow, put their heads together and
(26:19):
see what they can resolve.
are clauses like you know a unit
being professionally cleaned likeis that reasonable to put in like
i would say definitely reasonableand any of these clauses that do
get in the contract i mean that isevidence to a court if it ever
goes there what was the intentionof the parties as it relates to
the transaction specifically anitem in the contract whether it be
the cleanliness of the home orotherwise but it's something that
(26:41):
you know on the buyer's side youdo have to would say definitely
reasonable and any of theseclauses that do get in the
contract i mean that is evidenceto a court if it ever goes there
what was the intention of theparties as it relates to the
transaction specifically an itemin the contract whether it be the
cleanliness of the home orotherwise but it's something that
(27:02):
you know on the buyer's side youdo have to advise your clients to
a certain extent as you get toclosing and obviously there's
terms in the contract and rightsand obligations of both sides and
there is a discussion of clientsthat this is what you're legally
entitled to contractually this iswhat is supposed to happen but
what happens if it's not and sofirst off for the vast majority i
(27:23):
would say 99 of these terms theyare not material In the sense that
you cannot back out of a deal ifthe home is not professionally
clean when they say it's going to.
Or there is some damage found to
the property.
I mean, material, it's got to go
to the essence of the contract.
Are you still getting the home you
said you were going to get?Or the contract contemplated you
getting?And so that is something that, you
(27:44):
know, client has to understand isthat if you do find out about an
issue, whether before closing oron the day of closing, it's not
material.
It doesn't give you an out.
You can't not close on that basis.
Yep.
They are.
I mean, you know, the walkthrough
can always be a good thing.
Like you said, you can be
proactive in that regard to seewhat are we getting them into here
as we get to closing.
And sometimes, you know, that can
(28:04):
lead to discussion between counselas to, hey, it's not clean
contracts as their client will bein breach of a term.
Can we negotiate a hold back atthat point?
Is this something that the selleris willing to engage in that
regard?But if not, if there's a refusal,
there's a rejection in that, andultimately you're going to close
on a deal.
And then it's up to the client, a
buyer at that point, if they wantto pursue a remedy.
I tell clients like, ultimatelyyou're going to have to decide how
(28:27):
much time, money, and emotion youwant to put into this.
I mean, so now some clients.
will pursue a $300 cleaning bill.
It's on principle and somethingthey're comfortable pursuing
through small claims and they'refully entitled to do that.
Other times, it depends on theprice tag.
If there's water damage that'sdiscovered once we're in there and
it was clearly contemplated or itwas a misrepresentation that could
cost tens of thousands of dollars,then obviously there's potentially
more of an appetite to pursue thatthrough legal means.
And so every client's different,but... I think part of our job as
part of the closing process isjust to be very clear of how that
works.
Because I think to your point,
Taylor and Matt, there's sometimesthis, unfortunately, as much as we
wish we were the Harvey Specter,the bulldog, we can't just
magically make the place clean andthey're going to pay for it on
(28:50):
closing, you know, for yourexample there.
Yeah.
And you assume that, you know,
parties are going to work in goodfaith.
There actually is a common lawdoctor and courts have looked at
this in terms of parties have tonegotiate and engage in a
transaction in good faith.
And sometimes that comes up too.
And they're going to say, well,I'm going to go after the other
side because they weren't actingin good faith.
(29:10):
And that can be appreciated.
But, you know, again, the
practical element of that and pushfor Mitchell, we're a full service
firm and we have litigators whocan help.
A bad faith argument, you know,you're looking at 10 to 20 grand
minimum just to start that claim,right?
Well, even if you win in smallclaims, then how do you then
collect?It's just... an ongoing thing
forever i think the point of thecontract from where i stand is two
people communicating expectationsright and if one person doesn't
(29:33):
kind of follow through with thatexactly how the other person
doesn't want to you know you kindof take it on the thin unless it's
yeah a bigger line item obviouslyi think you nailed it there taylor
(29:53):
it is and i mean we're we almostall sound a bit jaded here talking
about the process but i thinkcircling back to really our role
is just to ensure our clientunderstands that process that the
pros and the cons think you nailedit there taylor it is and i mean
we're we almost all sound a bitjaded here talking about the
process but i think circling backto really our role is just to
(30:14):
ensure our client understands thatprocess that the pros and the cons
And I mean, ultimately they candecide how they want to go forward
if that situation were to arise.
And obviously with good advisors,
with the realtors, if they canidentify an issue as part of the
initial contract stage and goingback to that hold back language,
that's something that's alwaysgood if the lawyer can get
involved in that too.
And you can kind of work through
(30:35):
those different iterations of whatcould happen and making sure that
the client is protected there.
You nailed it, right?
I mean, we're here to try tofacilitate what the parties have
agreed to, but no, intentional orotherwise, things happen.
I mean, unfortunately, one thatis, I'd say, more on the extreme
side is one of the seller's mainobligations when they convey a
property pursuant to the standardform contract is they will provide
clear title.
That means any financial
encumbrance or otherwise will bedischarged.
(30:56):
Now, as much as they arecontractually obligated to do
that, there are some rarecircumstances where that actually
does become an issue and theyfinancially can't.
And now they are in breach oftheir own contract, which they
said they're going to do.
And that's something you have to
(31:19):
deal with.
And so, you know, you don't see
that typically when there's onemortgage on title, but sometimes
you pull a title and there's liensand judgments and multiple
mortgages and you sort of get asense.
And again, the conversation thereto a client is contractually
seller has to do that, but thereis a possibility that this could
be an issue.
Yeah.
Well, and that's an interestingpoint, especially in the last
couple of years, if you know, youbought and.
2022 and you wanted to sell a yearlater could be short on that for
(31:40):
sure absolutely right i'm nottalking the foreclosure aspect
where there actually is a lenderthat's closed but i would say the
seller's very close to that andnow they've come to the really the
(32:04):
closing and financially what eachcharge holder is saying may need
to clear title you're counting thenumbers i'm going we're not going
to get there and so that's a toughone yeah yeah right i'm not
talking the foreclosure aspectwhere there actually is a lender
that's closed but i would say theseller's very close to that and
now they've come to the really theclosing and financially what each
charge holder is saying may needto clear title you're counting the
(32:26):
numbers i'm going we're not goingto get there and so that's a tough
one Well, in that regard, Ben, doyou do a legal review for a
seller?And is that part of that as well
to say like, hey, we're going topull title and can you provide
like a current mortgage statement?Like you're getting ahead of that
before like subjects are removedfrom the buyer.
There certainly has beencircumstances where we're
providing a due diligence reviewor review of a contract to a
seller.
Often realtor has put in a. a
seller's legal condition andusually because there's some other
strange thing going on or theywant to make sure it's kind of a
fail safe.
Often we're getting the sale
contract after conditions havebeen removed and really it is
(32:47):
binding at that point where we'resaying, hey, you have to do this,
right?But I've said to my clients and.
The realtors I work with that, youknow, even if the deal is
conditional and we're on theseller side, send it to us.
Like, let's say make sure there'sno conflict.
And just, is there anything thatwe see based on a quick review
(33:30):
just to make sure that there is nosurprises at closing, which I
think is what we're trying toavoid there.
Yeah.
I want to ask one more question
and this is hopefully more to helpthe conversation with real estate
agents and mortgage brokers andlawyers so we can all be on the
same page.
Do you want to talk a little bit
about price reduction and creditat closing?
(33:51):
Because, you know, I get this.
not often, but say like one out of
20 deals.
And I just had it, you know, a
week ago where, you know, ScotiaUnderwriter called me on day of
funding and was like, hey, why isthe purchase price, you know, $5
,000 less than what you originallysubmitted?
I'm like, no idea.
So I have to reach out to the real
estate agent and say, oh, youknow, found out on a home
(34:11):
inspection that the furnace wasbad.
So we did a price reduction.
Well, now like everyone's
scrambling last minute.
You know, and it was okay on that
deal because the down payment was,I think like 30%.
So we're not on that border oflike insured or uninsured.
But how does that look in yourterms?
Like how much of a pain in the assis that for you?
No, absolutely.
And it really is something that
almost touches all parties herefrom a real estate agent to broker
(34:33):
to lawyer there per se.
I mean, on our end of the back end
is obviously we have a contractthat we look at and big part of
that is purchase price.
You know, what do we have to
factor in terms of crunching thefinal numbers if something
happens?your example you know price
reduction is where parties haveagreed that the purchase price has
gone down or up is a reductionit's gone down and you know that
matters for a couple reasonsnumber one from a purchaser
perspective you pay propertytransfer tax on fair market value
and so your purchase price is amillion dollars you are paying
property transfer tax on a milliondollars you do not factor in the
adjustments so to speak soutilities and taxes and things
(35:11):
like that you factor in for thesake of closing but from a fair
market value of what that propertyhas conveyed for the purchase
price remains and so if you reducethe purchase price you are
reducing how much you pay from aproperty transfer tax perspective
which is beneficial for a buyerhowever that can have negative
impacts on what you've beenapproved for from a mortgage
because part of the lender'saspect is depending on the lender
(35:35):
they're going to have certain asksor requirements and It does
happen, Taylor, to your point thatcertain lenders will say, you
know, if there is a pricereduction or a change in price, we
must know because that mightimpact the loan to value ratio or
what they're looking at on theirend.
And part of, you know, residentialconveyance as lawyer, we act for
buyer, but we also act for thelender in terms of registering
that mortgage on title.
And so we are obligated if we're
(35:56):
aware of a price reduction vis -a-vis amendment to the contract, we
have to share that with the lenderand that can potentially cause
issues from a funding perspective.
Well, fair market value.
And so, I mean, appraisals you getfor the sake of your mortgage or
approval might be different interms of what the fair market
value is.
I mean, ultimately, fair market
value in the open market is whatif two parties agreed to for this
transaction.
That's what's documented in the
contract.
And so you can have that in an
appraisal before or after,whatever that is that's different.
(36:19):
But ultimately, if the partiesthen agree upon a reduction, they
amend it, then that's obviouslythe new fair market value for the
sake of what that property isbeing conveyed for in that
transaction.
To your other point there, Taylor,
and so what you often see, andthis kind of ties back into the
holdback issue we talked abouttoo, is, you know, for various
reasons, something has to berepaired.
Something has to be replaced andthe parties agree, you know, it's
(36:42):
just going to be easier.
The buyer says, let me do it.
We agree it's going to cost $5,000.
Give me $5 ,000 and I'll do it.
And so parties will do that.
And if it's worded, it has acredit.
The buyer will be credited $5 ,000as part of closing for the sake of
this specific thing.
They're still paying the purchase
price.
The fair market value, what the
property has been conveyed for isstill original purchase price, but
it's treated arguably as anadjustment as opposed to a
(37:04):
reduction in the purchase price.
Yeah, I've had difficulties with
that in the past, lender tolender.
And you know, one of them.
again, came up at time of funding,
but fortunately, you know, we havegreat lawyers in the Okanagan, so
we're able to get on top of it.
But one comment that comes from
lenders is... I don't recall thatone, recall that one, Taylor.
I'm thinking of that deal.
Yeah, that was at your wife's
firm.
Fortunately, they were pretty good
(37:25):
too.
You know, they look at it as
incentivizing... the sale of aproperty.
So lenders obviously don't want tosee that, even though it's a very
small amount.
And then the other one that we
struggle with, it goes back tothat insured mortgage.
You know, like if you're getting acash back, essentially the lender,
you know, let's say it's on that20 % down payment, but you're
(37:46):
getting the cash back.
Well, you know, you're less than
20 % down because effectively thelender is financing a larger
portion and you're walking awaywith, with less down payment.
So I've had personally a hardertime with the credits or cash
back.
So I, I always encourage the price
reduction.
it's harder for the client
obviously because they're thinkinggreat i want to cash back of five
(38:07):
grand instead of a five thousanddollar price reduction you know
they're two very different thingsbecause one you have the money in
your hand and the other it justreduces your mortgage amount so
when you're looking at replacinglike a furnace you know it'd be
nicer if it was done prior toclosing so we don't have to deal
with any of that and then theother little caveat to all that is
if there's a price reduction thelender wants to know why there's a
(38:29):
price reduction if it's because ofmold Oh my God, we're in a heap of
trouble.
Like now we need a remediation
report and we got to make sure thelender is okay with it.
So like, it's just a conversationthat needs to be brought to
everyone's attention sooner thanlater.
(38:51):
And, you know, loop everyone in sowe can not have those issues.
I think for all parties, and Imean, Taylor, you kind of stole my
thunder there, but you nailed it.
I mean, I think there's a big
piece of this is the communicationis that if there is something
coming down the line or reductionor an adjustment, whatever you
want to call it, I think allparties, advisors really got to be
on the same page for the exactreasons you brought up.
And, you know, on my end too, as alawyer, and again, I bring up that
(39:15):
dual role.
We are acting for lender, not to
say we're trying to pull a fastone at all with the lender, but
like really what we as a lawyerare always looking at when we get
our loan packages.
What are the instructions?
What is the lender telling us?And often, to your point, they are
going to be very clear to say, wemust be notified if there is a
price reduction, or we must benotified if there's amendment or
terms.
And so we're obligated at that
point to notify them.
(39:35):
And so to your point there, it can
come as a surprise upon closing,we realize that there's been an
amendment or something's happened.
And whether it's the lawyer not
talking to broker or real estate,you know, whatever way it goes,
it's important that we're all.
talking throughout the process.
I think that's probably the bestpoint to leave this whole
conversation on is, I think that'sprobably the best point to leave
(40:01):
this whole conversation on is, youknow, have the team around you,
make sure everyone's in constantcommunication.
And even with, you know, like whenI send you guys a commitment
letter, I know that's like barebones, right?
Like I don't see the instructionsthat are sent.
So it, you know, it's obviouslypages and pages longer.
So yeah, for the client.
you know, have a good team,
surround yourself with thosepeople, and then just be
transparent and, you know, let theprofessionals kind of take it from
(40:22):
there.
Yeah, we're kind of running out of
time here, Pat.
Absolutely loved having you on,
man.
Thank you so much.
Yeah, I'm interested into hearingmore about the Chamber of Commerce
as well and your guys' eventcoming up.
Absolutely.
I noticed in closing, neither of
you two are nominees, so we'llhave to work on that for next
year.
Yeah.
Yeah, maybe I'll nominate Matt.
Fantastic.
All across the board.
Absolutely.
Well, thanks so much for coming onagain, buddy.
(40:42):
And yeah, we'll chat to you soon.
Take care.
Thanks.
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