October 28, 2025 • 42 mins
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EPISODE DESCRIPTION
Episode 108: Matt and Taylor are joined by Casey Greabeiel. Casey, an experienced restaurant entrepreneur from Calgary, Alberta, owns multiple restaurants in Kelowna including Salt & Brick (of which he also owns a location in Calgary), Diner Deluxe, and is a Co-Founder of Pretty Not Bad (PNB). In addition, Casey is the VP of Operations for GRETA, an arcade bar with locations in Edmonton, Calgary, Vancouver, Toronto, and soon to be Winnipeg.
Casey is here to discuss: → His history in the restaurant industry, how he ended up owning multiple restaurants in Kelowna, and where Casey is opening his next restaurant. → What key factors make it difficult to run a restaurant in Kelowna, and why the Meet Me on Bernard program keeps shrinking. → The unique impact of short-term rental legislation on Kelowna businesses, and if Kelowna has lost the trust of the business community.
Casey Greabeiel's LinkedIn: @CaseyGreabeiel
Casey Greabeiel's Instagram: @caseygreabeiel
Salt & Brick (Kelowna) Instagram: @saltandbrick_
Pretty Not Bad Instagram: @prettynotbadylw
Diner Deluxe Instagram: @dinerdeluxeylw
Salt & Brick (Calgary) Instagram: @saltandbrickyyc
GRETA Website: www.gretabar.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome back to the Colonial RealEstate Podcast.
(00:01):
I'm your news broker host, TaylorAtkinson.
And I am your real estate agenthost, Matt Glant.
That griff I hear in the backthere, Taylor?
Yeah, yeah.
Dogs barking, deliveries are
happening, you know.
How are you doing, buddy?
That's a sign of a booming economyif I ever heard one.
Yeah, yeah.
E -commerce.
Well, hey, funny you mentionedbooming economy.
So today's guest, Casey Grebel,super interesting guy.
(00:21):
So restaurant entrepreneur runningSalt and Brick, Diner Deluxe,
pretty not bad.
Jax.
Jax.
And then.
all over other places, Canada aswell.
But yeah.
Yeah.
Unfortunately, if you haven'theard already, Salt and Brick is
closing his doors still open forspecial events.
Yeah.
Open for special events.
I was thinking we should get thehockey team in there for a party.
(00:45):
Yeah.
Maybe first to win if we can win a
game.
That would that would justify a
celebration.
We got to win.
Open the doors.
Yeah.
God, we don't want to make themwait that long.
But yeah, so we just kind of doveinto it on like how businesses
what's going on with tourismairbnb legislation that came up
you know a few years ago howthat's impacted his business like
(01:07):
we obviously on the show hear alot from people that own real
estate that have condos that gotkind of around with uh the rules
right with their short -termrental rules and like to hear it
from a restaurateur who has a fewrestaurants like here in the
episode like he's got a 20 yearsof experience with like i don't
even know how many restaurants hehas we obviously on the show hear
a lot from people that own realestate that have condos that got
(01:29):
kind of around with uh the rulesright with their short -term
rental rules and like to hear itfrom a restaurateur who has a few
restaurants like here in theepisode like he's got a 20 years
of experience with like i don'teven know how many restaurants he
has Dozens, right?At least dozen in different
markets.
So for him to share his experience
was like very eye opening aboutwhat has happened in Kelowna with
the short term rental ban andother factors as well that he puts
up, but like a lot to do with theshort term rental situation.
Yeah.
And I think you hear the odd
business owner in Kelownacommenting on this stuff.
and maybe they don't want to fightor like are super transparent with
numbers.
But for a guy that has like on
quite a large scale, like fourrestaurants in Kelowna that are
very successful in greatlocations, you know, for him to be
(01:52):
able to share that is obviouslylike there's a lot of evidence
that, yeah, short term rental hasimpacted negatively for those
owners.
I mean, and he doesn't put all the
blame on that.
You know, there's fires and covid
and a bunch of other reasons butfor him to be looking at say diner
deluxe and saying well yeah we'redown by 30 percent because short
-term rental legislation that'stough and to me like to lose a
(02:14):
great operating restaurant hurtsyou know obviously in a space
that's built for a restaurantlikely the next restaurant is
going to come and fill that voidand you know that's just the cycle
of it to me the real loss is likeyou're losing these awesome
entrepreneurs that have beeninvested here for years and you
know for a guy like that to youknow be raising a family here too
and then to feel kind of likepushed out and to go back to
(02:37):
alberto a little bit more is ispretty sad you know like that's
the loss like restaurants like tryto make waste and not boom in the
summer so they're basicallycreating restaurants that are for
the locals rather than for thetourists restaurants like try to
make waste and not boom in thesummer so they're basically
creating restaurants that are forthe locals rather than for the
tourists It changes the vibe asKelowna being like a tourist
(03:00):
destination in the summer, whichcould affect longer term for like
once the economy does bounce back,it looks shorter rentals to
straighten out and stuff likethat.
Slow the recovery because of themindset shift with the business
owners in town.
Yeah.
I mean, it's a hard thing tocomment on because like selfishly
we like having, you know, our cityto be a little bit more locally
run and having less, you know,traffic, but on the same sense,
like.
having that tourism boom is fun
once in a while it creates eventsand vibrancy and economic
(03:20):
stability like that injection tocash in the summer so to have like
that perfect blend between the twois is hard to do but when you're
getting a form of interventionthat limits that owner operator
entrepreneur on their own visionis brutal you know it's so sad to
see so anyways he's stilloperating some very successful
restaurants here that are doingawesome It's just that Salt Brick
(03:41):
specifically just wasn't workingout the way they needed it to.
And then with the short termrental ban, are then with the
short term rental ban, like thecity of Kelowna, I've been hearing
more and more.
We should have Ryan Smith on again
to talk about this because I thinkhe's recommending that they bring
back short term rentals to thecity.
But the problem with this is thatit's not really.
(04:04):
up to the city if our vacancy ratelowers again to under two or under
three or whatever it is whateverit's supposed to be like i think
the choices just get taken off thetable to have because they're
talking about applying to theprovince to have an exemption for
a certain amount of buildingswhether it's the same ones that
were before or not it obviously wedon't know exactly what he's going
to recommend but if he even doesthat that only applies if it's
over the Vacancy rate.
(04:24):
So we have a lot of rental
buildings coming up right now.
I don't foresee the vacancy rate
going down in the next two yearsor like in the short term
timeframe, but like for arestaurant or a business to open
up, they kind of got to looklonger term than that.
And if you just have no ideawhat's going to happen in three,
four years, like how do you builda business when you just don't
know what's going to go down?Totally.
Yeah.
(04:44):
We really need the vacancy.
yeah to be above that threepercent but then they also need to
lobby at parliament for exclusionon you know saying hey these
specific property addresses thesebuildings that are purposely built
for you know a resort stylecommunity short -term rentals yeah
like whatever happens the vacancyshould not matter you know like we
need some commitment no exactlyprovincially can't just change
every few years that's crazy howis anyone supposed to plan
anything like that it feels likewe've obviously talked about this
(05:04):
a ton on the show but whensomething happens we just pull all
the levers try and fix it and thenit goes the other way now you
almost don't want it to pull allthe levers the other way like for
the love of god just let thingswork out a bit right let him
prevent him and just just changeevery few years that's crazy how
(05:26):
is anyone supposed to plananything like that it feels like
we've obviously talked about thisa ton on the show but when
something happens we just pull allthe levers try and fix it and then
it goes the other way now youalmost don't want it to pull all
the levers the other way like forthe love of god just let things
work out a bit right let himprevent him and just follow the
market kind of where it's at it'sa tough one to do you know it's
not just up to the city and i feellike the city kind of got behind
themselves a bit when they tookthe legislation that the province
passed and then added more on topright so they've made it more
cumbersome than that even theprovince said and now they're
going back the other way to tryand claw that back to less than
what the province says right sokind of like it almost erodes the
credibility they have with theprovince with this yeah oh totally
and like you know city of westcolonna and penticton have both
(05:47):
been pushing back against itpretty aggressively now they're
allowed to obviously with vacancyrates where they are but um we
need colonna to jump on board abit more and touch base with the
local entrepreneurs like casey aswell you know like these are guys
that they should be hearing theirvoice a little bit more so I think
where his restaurants are likewe're talking like right on the
water like two locations rightdown Bernard right in the most
prime locations we have Clementand Ellis we have pretty not bad
(06:08):
and then we have right across thestreet from gyro like very high
profile locations all of hisrestaurants and think where his
restaurants are like we're talkinglike right on the water like two
locations right down Bernard rightin the most prime locations we
have Clement and Ellis we havepretty not bad and then we have
right across the street from gyrolike very high profile locations
all of his restaurants and For himto say that he's starting like
(06:29):
this is like just saying a lot.
You know, like you have an
experienced owner with resourcesin the high profile locations that
still is having a tough time.
It's just like, it should be an
eye opener for everybody.
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, I think we should just diveinto the show because I agree.
Pretty interesting guy.
And outside this, yeah, go to one
of the restaurant and bars andhave a drink, have some dinner and
support him.
You know, he's a local restaurant
here.
Yeah, absolutely.
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All right, Casey Grable.
How are you doing, man?
Crazy weekend and it was a weekendof bricks and stuff going on
(07:09):
outside of that.
it was a weekend of bricks and
stuff going on outside of that.
I was sick of a little boy at home
today.
So, you know, that.
I know, going with the flow.
Well, maybe you can give us a bit
of a rundown on your background,who you are, what you're doing.
For sure.
Yeah.
I mean, I started coming to Quonoa lot in, geez, 2006.
(07:30):
Then started looking at businessopportunities over time.
Took over 10 years to pull thetrigger.
Got connected with someone througha mutual friend that really wanted
to do a restaurant project withme.
So we did salt and brick.
We bought the original, which was
the salted brick.
We didn't tweak the name much.
We did a big reno, but it wassalted brick.
(07:51):
And one of the main reasons webought it is that a really great
culinary reputation and we reallywanted to own kind of a quaint
little.
restaurant project, then tweak it
to some of the things that I'dseen.
I live in Calgary and I've livedin Calgary since 2006, 2007, I
guess.
So I've seen obviously a lot of
concepts come through Calgary andsome of which I hadn't seen come
to Kelowna.
So at that point, we really wanted
to focus on the local wine andthen, you know, share plates,
(08:15):
small plates, dining.
And then quickly we ended up doing
Jack's, which was Beccaro beforeus, which was three doors down on
Bernard as well.
Turn that into a cocktail bar.
Initially, it was cocktails andpizza.
Treat the format over the years.
Then right before COVID, we signed
a deal to do Diner Deluxe acrossfrom Cairo Beach.
So we have Diner Deluxe there.
That was a very interesting
experiment, opening right in theheart of COVID.
You know, we opened in that June.
COVID had been on for like three
(08:37):
months.
So very unique experience.
Obviously, Kelowna experienced alot of uniqueness in the COVID
times.
Probably the most tourism we've
seen, I would actually say, whichis a little bit backwards.
But did that project.
And then, yeah, just two years
ago, a little over two years ago,got a call that, you know, the guy
who had.
a bad tattoo in Kelowna, was
looking to get out of the Kelownalocation.
We had no plan for it, no ideasfor it or anything, but we were
(09:01):
like, this is a cool space.
And the previous owner put a lot
of money into the infrastructure,especially the kitchen.
So we were like, okay, let's comeup with something.
And I had this name in the back ofmy head for a while called Pretty
Not Bad that one of my nowpartners in that venture.
And so we were like, you know,does Kelowna need another sports
bar?Does Kelowna have a sports bar?
(09:21):
If we call it unconventionalsports bar, does it work?
So that was our fourth project.
As I mentioned, this last Sunday
was our last day of service atSalt and Brick.
It's just, you know,unfortunately, just has not
performed the way we previouslyperformed, especially over the
summers, the last two summers.
In the summers previously, we
would have done almost twice asgood sales as we did this last two
summers.
Lots of factors, I think, at play,
(09:41):
and definitely not all of them outof my control or out of our team's
control, but a lot of them, Ithink, for sure were.
So, yeah, kind of in aninteresting middle ground.
We had sold Jack's almost twoyears ago, so right now we just
are going to have the two projectsgoing forward with Pretty Not Bad
and Diner Lux.
Wow, that's incredible, man.
Well, I'm happy to say I've beento all of those venues, and I,
yeah.
Yeah, I think anybody can go on a
hat, anybody can go on a hat, so.
(10:01):
Is your first restaurant that you
opened then with Salt Lake Brick?Well, my first restaurant I opened
was in 2004 in Edmonton.
Long, long, long ago.
I don't think we wanted to go backthat far.
I know my eyes date myself alittle bit, but...
My very first restaurant I openedwas in 2004 in Edmonton called
Sapphire.
Learned a lot of lessons there.
And then, yeah, took a hiatus fromthe restaurant industry for a
(10:22):
while.
And then jumped back into it with
the other job that I have, being Ioversee a brand called Greta Bar.
So we have Greta Bars all acrossthe country.
We just opened in Toronto lastyear.
And that brand is a partner brandwith Hudson's Pubs.
And don't have any Hudson's Pubsin BC, but at one point we had 11
locations, 10 in Alberta, one inSaskatoon.
They currently have six.
I'm not super actively involved on
that brand, but we are, you know,closely associated.
So I oversee the four Gretas.
(10:43):
And then that same group is
actually who did Salt and BrickCalgary.
So the Calgary location is acompletely different, you know,
partnership group other thanmyself, than the Colona location.
What I loved about the Colona wasthat it was 952 square feet or
whatever the math is on that andhow much my culinary team could do
with so little resources.
basically an oven and some
induction burners, and those guysput out world -class food every
day for eight years.
Whereas the Calgary one was like,
they got all the bells andwhistles in the Calgary one.
(11:05):
They got the full -out kitchen,anything our chef really asked
for, he got.
It's a beautiful space, has a
speakeasy in the back.
So yeah, I mean, I've been all
over the map in the hospitalityworld over the years, right?
Why does everybody land somewhere?It was about a girl.
Is that ultimately not whyeveryone ends up somewhere, I
feel?The backstory, which we'll keep
very brief, my partner back thenhad a little boy who lived in
(11:25):
Kelowna and wasn't able to move.
And so it was like if I wanted to
start a life with her and her son,it would have been having to be in
Kelowna.
So I looked around for jobs for a
very short time and realized whatI did in Alberta.
didn't really exist in a city asmallest border and i didn't want
to travel a ton so i was like allright like let's start make clean
(11:46):
clone a home i actually gave mynotice to my business partner in
the greta hudson's world twice twoyears in a row i gave him okay one
more year one more year and thenthe crazy thing out of it all was
that the greta project came up andlike i looked back on that project
which you know we came up with theconcept i think late 2017 and we
were open november 2018 in ourfirst location in calgary and
Basically, my deal with my partnerat that point was like, put off
(12:12):
moving to Kelowna fully and runthis brand, but I'm okay with you
having these projects in Kelowna,you know, as long as those
projects, you know, don't require,you know, full time from you.
You know, when you talk about theKelowna story, that's always been
the tough one for me is I've neverlived in Kelowna fully.
(12:32):
You know, we own a house inMcKinley, but when the short -term
rental rules changed, it became along -term rental instead of a
short -term rental.
You know, we bought the house
specifically with the mindset thatwe would short term rent, you
know, three weeks out of a monthand then we'd be there one week
out of the month.
And that was with my new partner
and my two little kids.
And so, you know, that dream went
out the window very quickly.
(12:53):
It was literally, I think we
bought in June.
I can't remember when the law
changed fully.
I think it was May, but you know,
between that 11 month span,obviously short -term rentals
became not a possibility.
And so, yeah, we had to make the
call of just finding a long -termrenter.
And so I actually, it's been overa year since we've lived in that
house we have in Kelowna.
We're going to jump into the short
(13:13):
-term rental thing here in asecond, going to jump into the
short -term rental thing here in asecond, but like you have
experience all over the country.
So what's it like to run a
restaurant in Kelowna compared toother places?
There's very few places in theworld that I could say that I've
been to and traveled to that Ithink would be as challenging as
Kelowna.
And that's for lots of reasons.
I mean, right off the bat,seasonality.
(13:33):
And I know that Kelowna isobviously experiencing growth.
Actually, maybe not in the lastyear, but had been experiencing
pretty amazing growth for years.
And I know that there's a great
Kelowna 2040 plan.
And I had lots of chats with the
previous mayor when he was inoffice and a little couple of
chats with the current mayor aboutwhere Kelowna is going.
And I think for me and for whatI've experienced with restaurants,
is just the swings of the busyseason and slow season are just
really tough to take in allaspects, whether that be revenue
(13:54):
and cash management and inventoryand all that, or whether it be on
the other side of that with, youknow, like staffing and keeping
good staff and every year havingto have this hiring cycle where
you go, even with smallrestaurants, you know, like Salt
and Brick in the winter and Jack'sin the winter, I think our first
or second winter, I might add like10 staff total between the two
places.
So if someone's sick or anything
like that happened, That wasalways a challenge.
And then you got to scale up inthe summer.
So I always have found thatseasonality played into it.
(14:16):
The fires 1000 % play into it.
We used to be a partner with a
wedding venue for Salt and Brickand it was a huge piece of our
business for several years.
But like August weddings just
stopped happening.
It was part of the reason the
partnership ended up changing wasbecause like you truly like one of
the months of the year.
So again, hiring a chef and then
having one or two weddings and allof August for him to work, you
know, or her to work wasn'tenough.
(14:37):
So I definitely think the firesare a challenging part of Kelowna.
And when we have two years in arow without major fires, I believe
that's a good thing.
I think it's a good thing for the
real estate.
I think it's a good thing for
tourism.
There are a lot of people in
Alberta that I know personallythat have places in Kelowna that
had that same mentality of like,we'll go to Kelowna for the summer
(15:00):
until the first fire hits.
And then we might not come back
for the rest of the summer unlessit can be contained.
Those ones were probably theseasonality of the second one.
And then, yeah, we can talk aboutthe short -term rentals when you
want.
because i had a property that's a
short -term rental i have arestaurant in a building that had
short -term rentals above it thathad to convert and then obviously
had multiple other businesses inthe city like i can definitely
speak to my true opinions on theshort -term rental changes let
(15:23):
your true opinions fly immediatelyyour true opinions fly immediately
Yeah, I mean, so I'm a prettytransparent guy when it comes to
numbers and things with businessbecause I don't think there's any
reason to kind of usually hideback.
But we basically experienced anover 30 % drop at Diner Deluxe
below, you know, the shores acrossfrom Gyro there.
Like overnight, like almost ourwhole drop was May 1 of last year
until August 31 or maybe September30th.
It was almost all contained inthose months.
The rest of the year, we were kindof flat.
(15:45):
Actually, we were trending reallywell going into it.
And that building at 1 % lastsummer, I'm pretty confident was
at 12 % occupancy because theywere converting from a short -term
rental to a long -term rentalbuilding.
So it was very clear and apparentthat like, hey, this isn't
something we're really doing wrongas operators.
The same chef had a very similarstaff.
We have been able to claw backsome of those numbers this summer.
Same team as well.
So I look back at that $300 ,000
dip and be like, that was...
almost entirely related to short
(16:06):
-term rentals.
I'm sure there was a component of
it related to the fires.
There's a component of it related
to economic, you know, micro andmacroeconomic conditions and
inflationary times.
Overall, I was like, look back at
it.
I go like short -term rentals is
what did that.
And you just look at all these
purpose -built buildings that haverestaurant retail spaces in them
that can't lease them becausethey're not allowed to do short
-term rentals currently.
(16:27):
And it's just organic.
To me, it looks abundantly clear.
And there's been some great
studies.
There's a big one out in New York
that was comparing a long -termbuilding above you as a tenant to
a short -term building.
And Airbnb did the study, so maybe
it's a little skewed in theirfavor.
But the end result was like, as anoperator of a restaurant in a
(16:47):
building with short -term rentals,I should expect two to three
visits a week from each unit.
From a long -term rental building,
it's two to three a month.
So like 75 % traffic down right
there, just if you're relying onthat.
When I go back to my frustrationson the changes is I never buy my
house in McKinley if I thoughtthose changes would come into
effect.
I never probably do a restaurant
in a building that has beenapproved for short -term rentals
(17:10):
either.
So that's where maybe some of my
bitterness and tone comes from it.
The other one I would say on short
-term rentals that I've justreally seen is obviously the
effect on downtown.
At the end of the day, we were one
of the biggest proponents of theMeet Me on Bernard program.
We were a huge fan of that.
We loved it.
We really wanted it to get towhere the previous mayor wanted
it, which was that you could haveopen alcohol and it could be more
(17:36):
of almost like a European vibe.
We loved that idea.
Last year, I didn't even do theextended patio at Salt and Brick.
So that, you know, to me, it wentfrom being this huge positive and
it's just like to actually being anegative because there was costs
obviously we incurred with thoseextended patios.
And I was like, I lost money bydoing that extended patio in 2024.
So in 2025, I opted against it.
So again, we're just not seeing
that downtown traffic like we usedto.
(17:56):
And as mentioned earlier, some ofthat downtown traffic, especially
during COVID, was almost anegative for our city and got us
highlighted on national news acouple of times.
And I don't know if that's thechange.
We really thought maybe thissummer with the tariffs and stuff,
we would see an upswing.
Yeah, I think we saw some of it
for sure.
Like I said, two of the three
businesses I have in Kelowna areup.
(18:16):
so you know that is a positivesign but they're not up to the
levels of two years ago where theywere you know before the fires
before the short -term rentals andmy last comment on the thing is i
just have never understood theinclusion of like luxury
properties in short -term rentalsat the end of the day i fully
support the idea like most of mystaff relies on you know better
cheaper accommodations most of mystaff are multiple people in a
(18:38):
house or two people sharing acondo you know like i fully get
that there's a need for let's callit sub $2 ,000 in our market
housing, but like someone who ownsa $2 million home, they're not
going to take that hit.
And there's not enough people that
are going to take the hit to havethat trickle down effect happen.
So what I saw with that was allthe large groups, the friends that
I have coming in from Calgary.
(18:59):
stop coming because they weren't
going to do six guys or six girlsin a hotel room at the delta grand
and pay more money than they paidthe year before for a you know
five million dollar mansion rightthat was my final thought on short
term rentals yeah i mean there's aton to back there my question is i
thought the shore was that stillnot operating as a short -term
rental building because it's likea commercial hotel use oh even
(19:19):
their license got i mean there's aton to back there my question is i
thought the shore was that stillnot operating as a short -term
rental building because it's likea commercial hotel use even their
license got adjusted or whateverso i would tell you 1000 when i
went to my landlord for rentrelief when we saw the drop he was
like i'm losing a lot more thanyou are casey I think almost like
the narrative that Airbnb isbasically dead here just limits
(19:40):
people's investigation and cominghere in the first place.
Like, oh, why would we go there?You know, like no one wants to
sniff around for like the 400units that are available.
And there was 2 ,500 abundantlyavailable before.
And then, yeah, with the BernardStreet, like being like Europe,
totally, man.
Like we just got back from Europe
and like that is such a culturalpiece that we're missing here.
Like, why don't you think that'sreally taken off?
Because it feels like every yearwe're trying to do it.
(20:02):
It just doesn't gain enoughtraction to really.
be where it needs to be i'll behonest like i just think it was a
vision from the previous mayor andcouncil and it wasn't the similar
vision with the current mayor ofcouncil i think that's as simple i
don't know like there's obviouslysome awesome i'll be honest like i
just think it was a vision fromthe previous mayor and council and
it wasn't the similar vision withthe current mayor of council i
(20:23):
think that's as simple i don'tknow like there's obviously some
awesome big players in therestaurant game that are still
doing incredibly well in Klona.
And that's why I'll never just
blame all the bigger factors.
Like at the end of the day,
there's new restaurants that havemoved into Klona that are doing
incredibly well.
You know, Ken and Fo, Humo, Ask
Pablo.
You know, Kyle has done just an
amazing job with, you know, allthe projects he has and was
(20:44):
definitely someone I tried toemulate a little bit by doing
Pretty Not Bad because it was thefirst business we did that wasn't.
for tourists i would say salt andbrick and jacks even diner deluxe
being across from gyro in a short-term rental building they were
all built with the mindset of likewe're gonna get these huge summers
where it's pretty not bad it'slike there's no sports in the
summer like sports are gone so ifyour main concept is sports and
you're not pulling a spot it'splus 38 you know i'm not choosing
a sports bar over a boat or a poolor something to that effect so but
i think just overall to yourquestion is like you just you need
(21:07):
a cumulative group of people thathave a collective vision to get
there.
And I haven't really seen that
from downtown Kelowna.
I'll be honest, I'm not really
seeing it in other markets.
The last time we really saw that
of like restaurateurs reallygetting together and bonding
together was COVID because we allhad this shared purpose of, you
know, getting government supportand landlord support and all that
stuff.
I haven't really seen that,
whether it be Kelowna or whetherit be abroad.
(21:27):
So I'm sure there's a lot ofrestaurants that still work really
closely together.
I have lots of people I reach out
to for advice.
You know, PJ will craft next door
to us.
I talk to him all the time about
things.
You know, I for years talked to
Kyle about a lot of that stuff.
So there's obviously people that
are still thriving, though, whichis a good thing.
But for an idea like what Mediumor Bernard was supposed to be, it
just didn't have enough pullthrough, maybe not enough city
support.
And then, yeah, when the council
and mayor changed, it just kind ofwas like, OK, we'll keep doing it.
But we're not going to reallyinvest in it.
And every year, obviously one yearit was 200, 300 and 400 block.
(21:49):
And then it became 200 and 300block.
And now for the most part, I thinkit's still 200 and 300 block, but
it's mainly just the 200 blockthat sees any action from it.
And there's just no vibe andenergy.
Like I remember last summer whenmy first trip, once we had
extended patio, it was a Tuesdaynight or something, but it was
like a ghost town.
Even the summer before there was a
good energy and vibe on a Mondayor Tuesday.
this was like okay no one'sextended patios were even open and
(22:11):
when that kind of stuff happens itstarts to look like a negative
like nobody wants to go somewherethat's got no customers right yeah
i think it was last summer i wentto earl's it was august but we
went there in the middle of theweek for lunch and we were the
only people in the restaurant sowhat on earth is going on here
which is crazy right yeah you justexpect it to be busy every day
(22:31):
from may long to labor day yeahwhen we opened in 2017 like i
fully had the conversation iremembered kyle nixon sharing a
story with me from when he wasstill at the el dorado his family
was wants to go somewhere that'sgot no customers right yeah i
think it was last summer i went toearl's it was august but we went
there in the middle of the weekfor lunch and we were the only
people in the restaurant so whaton earth is going on here which is
(22:52):
crazy right yeah you just expectit to be busy every day from may
long to labor day when we openedin 2017 like i fully had the
conversation i remembered kylenixon sharing a story with me from
when he was still at the el doradohis family was there and he was
sharing a story of the bar thatwas in the bottom it's basil and
mint now but cabana then i thinkand he just was sharing a story
about how like i think it was likethe two days after september long
(23:13):
they were just like out on thestreet and they popped over the el
dorado and be like what is goingon it's like this is toronto you
know literally september long endsyou know have seven months eight
months to figure it all out and torun a very cost efficient business
and again when i look back at saltand brick i go like we just didn't
have the summers that were busyenough to offset the winters that
were slow you know and that'sreally what led to the decision to
close that and move forward withtrying to find a new operator for
(23:35):
that spot It's so funny becausewe've talked a lot on this podcast
about how Kelowna is like madecity for something like a short
term rental.
We just boom in the summer and
then that off season just turnsinto a college town.
So to hear a restaurant person saythat, like, obviously we all know
this, but like to make all yourmoney in the summer, then be so
affected.
It's kind of crazy.
This went through like this.
Yeah, it just seems so obvious
again.
And there was a couple areas that
could be fixed very easily.
(23:56):
And, and maybe I think it's in
May.
I'm pretty sure like when we get
the.
rental averages and we're well
above the two percent like maybecolonel will be close to ten
percent with all these buildingsthat are are getting completed and
to my knowledge are not gettingoccupied you guys would really
know that better than me how manyof those units are being i mean i
can see the retail units aren'tgetting rented are the actual
tenants going into you know theaquas and the water street by the
parks and stuff i don't know imean i remember looking at leasing
a space in one water street andthis would have been pre -fire
that same year but pre -fire and iremember talking to the two
gentlemen who did that project andthe project we're doing was
actually not a full restaurant.
And I just had like one of my
questions to them was just like,they both lived in the building.
I was like, okay, how often areyou guys here?
And they were like 20, 30 % of thetime.
And right away, I was just like,how often are the rest of the
people in this building here?Do you feel like, I mean, this was
(24:19):
my kind of take over the lastcouple of years and tell me if I'm
off with you or not, but like, youknow, when provincial legislation
came out and then the cityobviously followed suit and then
actually upped the ante a littlebit and made it more strict.
You know, personally, I felt likea little bit betrayed, obviously
from both governments, you know,I'm optimistic that it will swing
back and they'll allow short -termrentals in certain.
zoned buildings you know howaggressive they get with it i'm
(24:40):
not sure but like even if theycome back with it i'm still not
really going to trust that they'llpull that run out again in the
future but as like a businessentrepreneur owner of restaurants
do you think if they did come backwith you know more allowance on
short -term rental would theconfidence come back for your
group of entrepreneurs in cologneand be like okay We see that there
is an opportunity here.
We're going to go back in all in.
Or are you guys going to kind ofsit on the sidelines?
(25:03):
You know what?We kind of got screwed over once
on this.
Like we're just not willing to
take that risk again.
as like a More people will adopt
that philosophy that I said aboutfree not bad and what the next
restaurant group, which is like,don't build your business based
on.
you know summertime being this
boom you know like build yourbusiness on knowing that it needs
to be sustainable year round andthat if you get a nice up in the
summer even better kind of thinglike don't build your business
(25:25):
based on huge fatios another greatexample would be and again i don't
i know a lot of this stuff becausei obviously at one point was very
active and wanting to fully moveto kelowna and do more projects
but like the base space in aqua isthis incredible opportunity and to
my knowledge and i haven't got anupdate recently but i drove by it
in a recent trip you guys mightknow i don't believe it's been
leased you know and that's thekind of space that like you could
(25:46):
do an eldorado -esque conceptrestaurant concept there but it
would be millions of dollars andlike is somebody willing to do
that I don't know if they areright now in the current climate,
especially knowing that thosebuildings were, for the most part,
purpose -built to be short -termrentals and to see that big upside
in the summertime.
Yeah, I mean, like my first
experience in Kelowna was stayingin a short -term rental building
(26:47):
for two weeks.
Again, like I just remember the
vibrancy and like everyone's justthere.
How you vacation is just sodifferent than how you live your
day -to -day life.
So again, you talk about a long
-term rental.
versus a short -term rental like
and you own a restaurant downbelow it you're gonna see that you
know and i can only speak formyself i don't know if you know
shoreline brewing right beside mehas experienced the same situation
as myself but i would be surprisedif it hasn't so taylor you're
(27:11):
asking like basically if the ruleschange will people come back but
the funny thing is that even ifthe collota changes the rules if
our vacancy ever goes low enoughit just automatically can't do it
yeah i think the only way and i'vehad this conversation with my
landlord's representatives at theshores like basically if the rules
change will people come back butthe funny thing is that even if
the collota changes the rules ifour vacancy ever goes low enough
(27:32):
it just automatically can't do iti think the only way and i've had
this conversation with mylandlord's representatives at the
shores like they would be farpressed to reconvert back to short
term rentals.
With that risk of two more years
from now, I'm now going to haveanother summer.
where i basically have to start mywhole project and then obviously
during the two years you changethings with your model just like
we change things with our model ifyou're not seeing the same volumes
(27:52):
and stuff i chose not to do theextended patio for them all their
units were fully suited right likethey came fully furnished and
they've moved away from that modeland some of their units right so
now you're talking about buyingnew furniture and doing this stuff
and it would be a big investmentso i think if you only had the
promise that hey if it stays abovepeople set that's the only way i
don't know if that would work whata loss for kelowna because like
(28:14):
you have people like yourself andall the other uh like businesses
in kelowna that rely on the summerboom that are just not going to
embrace it and not going to likebuild their businesses around it
and then like you just think likesomeone trying to do like a
festival in the summer and it'slike are you gonna do that when
all the businesses around are justbasically pandering to the locals
you know like it just kind ofchanges the vibe of it in the long
(28:36):
term yeah don't know if that wouldwork what a loss for kelowna
because like you have people likeyourself and all the other uh like
businesses in kelowna that rely onthe summer boom that are just not
going to embrace it and not goingto like build their businesses
around it and then like you justthink like someone trying to do
like a festival in the summer andit's like are you gonna do that
when all the businesses around arejust basically pandering to the
locals you know like it just kindof changes the vibe of it in the
(29:00):
long term yeah Yeah, I mean, Ithink obviously the simple and
quick fix of short term rentalswould be purpose built buildings
being exempt and maybe luxuryhomes also being exempt.
I don't think either of thosethings would be super difficult to
do.
And you can also just grandfather
purpose built buildings before2024, even if they weren't
completed and just say, OK,there's no more of this and people
can change their model like anomission group has adjusted their
model to more rental based.
(29:21):
And I know that some of the other
big builders would continue to dothe same.
Yeah, to me, such a simple fix.
And not just for us, but all these
other communities, you know,around BC that rely on tourism.
Again, just giving them, like yousaid, the long -term certainty.
And hey, maybe you don't have tosay it's forever.
Maybe there's a commitment thatit's five years.
And then, hey, for a landlord thatsays to me that they had, you
know, like an 80 % decrease intheir revenue over a summer.
Okay, if you're changing back forfive years, now that starts to be
like, okay, economically, thisprobably makes sense for me to
change my model back.
But it's just for two years, maybe
not.
(29:41):
And again, on the restaurant side,
most of us are signing five to 10-year leases.
Maybe that's another thoughtprocess for restaurateurs, right?
So I just think the one thing Ibelieve so strongly in now after
my experiences is like, you know,the guys and girls who are doing
so great in the restaurantindustry, it's because they're
local.
It's because they're at the
grocery store that you're at.
It's because you see them
everywhere.
And people just inherently...
truly want to support them and youknow i think one of my flaws is
(30:05):
that over time as we talked aboutearlier like i've been in colina
less and less you know i wasworking so hard to become a local
and i ended up you know kind ofgoing the opposite way like you
know we talked about airbnbs i hadan airbnb in mexico this summer
and my family chose to go tomexico instead of colina this
summer because my wife just didn'twant me to be around work all
summer long and it was just likeit was cheaper like i made more
(30:26):
money on my long -term rental andwhat it cost me to spend time in
Mexico this summer.
So, you know, like that's an
example of like, obviously I putmost of my money back into Kona's
economy at my own restaurants, butyou know, someone like myself, if
you minus, you know, four weeksof.
you know, $2 ,000 to $3 ,000minimum spending at restaurants
and bars, you know, it's $12 ,000out of the economy just for one
person, one family, you know?So yeah, again, I think
economically it just makes nosense, but I do get the other side
of the equation that there needsto be affordable housing in all
markets and every market does itdifferently.
Like I'm not a fan of howVancouver does it either.
So, but we can do that on adifferent podcast.
I was going to ask you, like, soyou have a restaurant in
Vancouver.
Vancouver's a bigger city.
It wasn't affected the same way.
We have a Greta bar in Gastown,
and I would tell you the short-term rentals I don't think
affected us at all.
Okay.
That's kind of what I figured.
(30:49):
I mean, the one area that would
have affected us is, like, we allknow the one main group that
benefits from the short -termrental rules is the hotels.
So there's no question.
Like, I don't know if you guys
have tried to stay in a hotel inVancouver in the summer in the
last couple of years, but, like,ever since they got rid of short
-term rentals, like, or minimizedthem to previously licensed ones,
(31:09):
the cost to stay at... any hotelalmost doubled like i couldn't
even tell you guys i got a greatrate a couple of the places we
work with a lot and i travel to alot and that great rate was at
least double and was moreexpensive than staying in downtown
toronto on a blue jays game nightand you know like right by our
location there and it's just likeand that's been a trend now for i
think three summers in a row so ithink it started shifting even
(31:31):
before georgia rentals but it'sjust gotten worse and worse so i
don't really think about going tovancouver unless i have to in the
summertime anymore Geographicallyacross Canada, where would be your
optimal spot to open a newrestaurant?
Well, we're opening a Greta bar inWinnipeg.
I think I'm allowed to say that.
That's going to be an interesting
one.
I mean, we've done incredibly
well.
Obviously we're an Alberta based
company, that brand.
So we've obviously done really
well in Alberta over the years andwe've experienced a lot of success
(31:54):
in Saskatoon.
So yeah, we're hoping that the
Winnipeg one that we do next fallis a big success.
restaurant wise you know it's sucha debate like the amount of people
that come to either salt and brickbut especially of late just
because salt and brick calgary isso much bigger i get more people
commenting and so much newer theamount of people that especially
even hospitality people are likedo this in vancouver do this in
toronto and it's like you knowthere's one of those you know
comfort and confidence things youjust have to build over time with
(32:16):
other markets it's funny where iwas this weekend we were in
philadelphia and i was like thismarket is incredible so maybe the
next restaurant goes to the us notto can know donald would like that
yeah yeah donald would like thatand what's the general take i mean
you've kind of touched on this acouple times obviously being in
alberta but i feel like we've seenless albertans come here over the
last couple years and likemigration wise yeah we're
(32:36):
obviously not seeing the increasein population in bc this year yeah
are albertans just kind of stayingaround home or are they traveling
elsewhere why i'm seeing so manycool would that what's the general
take i mean you've kind of touchedon this a couple times obviously
being in alberta but i feel likewe've seen less albertans come
here over the last couple yearsand like migration wise yeah we're
obviously not seeing the increasein population in bc this year yeah
are albertans just kind of stayingaround home or are they traveling
(32:58):
elsewhere why i'm seeing so manycool that's funny i was in a
meeting the other day and the guymentioned he went back to bc for
the first time in several yearsand he he was upset about some of
the tax stuff and some of the backand forth things that happened
between our provinces severalyears ago and he still harbored
that resentment A lot of it isaffordability.
My most recent trip to Kelowna,and it was literally the most
beautiful day.
And I like, I texted my wife.
I'm like, this is why I loveKelowna.
(33:19):
I was like, I literally landed.
I was at the airport, blue skies,
got close down to the water, tothe restaurant.
It's like beautiful water.
You know, it was like mid to late
September.
So I'm like, this is why you live
in like, and that was always myfavorite part about Kelowna and
will continue to be in the longrun is the falls, you know, like
the spring and the fall before itbecomes more touristy.
(33:39):
I've always been in my favoritetimes.
Yeah.
All right.
Well, maybe we should get into ourwrap up questions here.
This should be an interestingquestion for you.
But if you could buy one propertyin the Okanagan in the next 12
months, what would it be?be?
Short -term rentals allowed or notallowed?
Currently not allowed.
Honestly, knowing where the
housing market is going and whereit's gone over the last two years,
like I love McKinley.
I think it's such an awesome area.
(34:01):
It's 15 minutes for me.
to pretty not bad on Clement.
Obviously, the amenity centerfinally got open last year.
There's the winery coming.
You're just going to see more
stuff go out that way.
I think it's an amazing area.
And I know how much my house hasdepreciated since I bought it.
So I'm like, if I could buy atpresent prices, I'd buy again in
McKinley.
I would just do it knowing I'm
probably not going to be able todo short -term rentals there.
(34:22):
That would be the big delta.
And I have no idea.
Again, you guys are the experts.
I have no idea if not doing short
-term rentals in McKinley is partof why the price has dropped
there.
I'm not sure.
I have no idea how many people.
bought in that area like me with
the mindset of this is a summerhome that i'd like to be able to
visit throughout the year i feellike some i don't know how much
(34:42):
percentage that is and i don'tknow how much that would lead to
uh a drop in the market definitelybeen affected like mckinley beach
was definitely affected with thatyeah people have that same mindset
been affected like mckinley beachwas definitely affected with that
yeah people have that same mindsetCasey, if you could give yourself
or your son, when they're 20 yearsold, some advice, what would it
be?My advice always goes back and
(35:03):
forth.
I have a five and a three -year
-old, you know, and my advice tothem when it comes to like their
future is obviously like whateveryou're passionate about, you just
pursue it and pursue it almostwith like an obsessive mentality.
I believe obsession is like ahealthy word at times.
It can definitely go the wrongway, but it's like whatever it is,
whether it's sports, whether it's,you know, art.
dance whatever my kids arepassionate about like if you're
passionate about it like that'swhat you should pursue don't
pursue something just because youthink it's the right thing to do
or or something to that effect andthen i just like i just believe in
being a good person you know itsucks sometimes when you are a
good person you feel like you getto get advantage of at times but i
just deep down just be a goodperson and good things will happen
to you yeah i love it what's yourfavorite charity or how do you get
(35:26):
back i love it what's yourfavorite charity or how do you get
back so for the last several yearsthere's a charity in calgary that
i joined a while back at therequest of a friend called one
ball kind of a random one but youcan probably guess what it is it's
testicular cancer charity so i wasalways you know super passionate
about that i wasn't a survivorunlike most of the people on our
(35:46):
board but i just really believedin a charity that's focus was on
giving people the opportunity tohave children one day like that
was a lot of the focus was usingfunds so people could you know do
what needs to be done to ensurethat they can have kids down the
road but yeah i mean i always leanFor the most part, I always lean
to anything with kids, anythingwith dogs.
Those are my big ones.
Right now, my number one charity
donation is my good friend ZachDonoranowski.
He's at MD Motivator on Instagram.
(36:07):
There's no way you haven't seen
him if you're on Instagram.
But like, I can't not donate.
So he does the crowd funds all thetime to the people that he tries
to help.
Like, I cannot not donate to
anything he does because thestories are just so emotional and
they're just amazing.
And I'm just like, the guy blows
me away every day with hisgenerosity and what he's doing for
(36:28):
the world.
Nice.
Nice.
All right.
So besides a lot of people goingto pretty, not bad to have a beer
and watch a football game.
How can Taylor or a listener help
you?Yeah.
I mean, I think that's the numberone thing I don't ever want to say
it negatively, but like the amountof photos I see on my social media
from.
Cactus Club in Kelowna.
And again, local people runningit, local people involved, but
like supporting the smallindependence.
Like one of the greatest thingsthat happened in COVID was like
the larger chain restaurants hadto run at 70 % capacity or
(36:48):
whatever it was.
And it forced people to go try
places for the first time.
And obviously there was also this
huge support local movement inthat time as well.
Yeah.
if we could channel that positive
side of what happened throughcovid like that would be the way
so yeah i mean obviously you knowpretty not bad is you know a great
sports spot it's great spot ingeneral awesome pizza my managing
partner there jack harry will takecare of everyone he just even
started doing 9 30 a m soccer games at his own decision
which you know i can't even thinkabout opening up at 9 30 at my age
(37:12):
now but uh But yeah, I mean, we dogreat with the NFL and the sports
there, but it's a good spot allthe time.
Yeah.
Kind of lucks to me is, I mean, we
won best brunch in Kelowna thevery first year we opened.
Haven't been able to get back ontop since, but we're always
driving for that.
And yeah, I think the team we have
at both those spots are amazing.
And Salton Brick's still available
for private functions until thenew year.
(37:33):
So if anyone just misses SaltonBrick, just...
Give me a call, send me a text,hit me on social media and I'm
happy to accommodate.
How many people can you have a
salt and brick?Depends, standing or seated, but
like between 30 and 45.
I Nice, nice.
I might have to heat up for that.
I also know from personal
experience that pretty not bad.
I think Diner Deluxe really
stepped up in Kelowna during thefires when everyone was evacuated.
Yeah, we had some really greatopportunities to do that.
(37:53):
And we tried our best to reallylook after the community.
And, you know, one of ourpartners, Daryl Reuter, he was
huge with that.
He was very involved with the
fire, you know, fire teams andmaking sure that.
those guys were were fed and wellequipped and yeah i mean we
obviously did our best to takecare of everyone you know whether
it be a customer whether you knowdiscounts for customers that were
evacuated or free food to alsobring in things to the front line
like yeah that was a that was agreat community again you know
like it's interesting how nottragic things but you know bad
(38:14):
things can happen like covid likea huge fire just the camaraderie
and community and again that's oneof those things i would put at the
top of the list of why i lovecolonna outside of the weather and
just how beautiful it is likeThere is a pretty amazing
community.
I built so many great
relationships in my time there,and I wasn't even a full -time
member of the community.
So, yeah, no, I definitely feel
the community vibes of that cityand just wish there maybe were
(38:36):
more opportunities for people tospread the...
Spread the joy and generosity.
I love it, love it, Casey.
It's been awesome talking a littlebit of a different perspective for
our show.
We talked about, obviously,
everybody in real estate, ourrestaurateur, entrepreneur on to
kind of show us that side.
Super eye opening.
It's kind of sad what's happenedlately.
And hopefully we can get this chipturned around.
Yeah.
Again, I only can speak from my
own experience.
And, you know, it's been a rough
(38:57):
couple of years and we've done ourbest to make it through.
And hopefully the other twoconcepts can make it through.
Yeah.
Well, Blue Jay game is on in about
an hour and a half.
So pretty not bad.
Yeah.
Maybe I'll head down and watch it
there.
Well, you ask for Jack, tell him
Casey sent you, and I'm surethere'll be a butter bud light on
me.
Awesome.
Okay.
Well, thanks again for coming on,
man.
(39:18):
I'm looking forward to having you
back.
Pleasure.
Nice officially meeting you both.
Have a great day, guys.
Thank you.
Welcome back to the Colonial RealEstate Podcast.
(00:01):
I'm your news broker host, TaylorAtkinson.
And I am your real estate agenthost, Matt Glant.
That griff I hear in the backthere, Taylor?
Yeah, yeah.
Dogs barking, deliveries are
happening, you know.
How are you doing, buddy?
That's a sign of a booming economyif I ever heard one.
Yeah, yeah.
E -commerce.
Well, hey, funny you mentionedbooming economy.
So today's guest, Casey Grebel,super interesting guy.
(00:21):
So restaurant entrepreneur runningSalt and Brick, Diner Deluxe,
pretty not bad.
Jax.
Jax.
And then.
all over other places, Canada aswell.
But yeah.
Yeah.
Unfortunately, if you haven'theard already, Salt and Brick is
closing his doors still open forspecial events.
Yeah.
Open for special events.
I was thinking we should get thehockey team in there for a party.
(00:45):
Yeah.
Maybe first to win if we can win a
game.
That would that would justify a
celebration.
We got to win.
Open the doors.
Yeah.
God, we don't want to make themwait that long.
But yeah, so we just kind of doveinto it on like how businesses
what's going on with tourismairbnb legislation that came up
you know a few years ago howthat's impacted his business like
(01:07):
we obviously on the show hear alot from people that own real
estate that have condos that gotkind of around with uh the rules
right with their short -termrental rules and like to hear it
from a restaurateur who has a fewrestaurants like here in the
episode like he's got a 20 yearsof experience with like i don't
even know how many restaurants hehas we obviously on the show hear
a lot from people that own realestate that have condos that got
(01:29):
kind of around with uh the rulesright with their short -term
rental rules and like to hear itfrom a restaurateur who has a few
restaurants like here in theepisode like he's got a 20 years
of experience with like i don'teven know how many restaurants he
has Dozens, right?At least dozen in different
markets.
So for him to share his experience
was like very eye opening aboutwhat has happened in Kelowna with
the short term rental ban andother factors as well that he puts
up, but like a lot to do with theshort term rental situation.
Yeah.
And I think you hear the odd
business owner in Kelownacommenting on this stuff.
and maybe they don't want to fightor like are super transparent with
numbers.
But for a guy that has like on
quite a large scale, like fourrestaurants in Kelowna that are
very successful in greatlocations, you know, for him to be
(01:52):
able to share that is obviouslylike there's a lot of evidence
that, yeah, short term rental hasimpacted negatively for those
owners.
I mean, and he doesn't put all the
blame on that.
You know, there's fires and covid
and a bunch of other reasons butfor him to be looking at say diner
deluxe and saying well yeah we'redown by 30 percent because short
-term rental legislation that'stough and to me like to lose a
(02:14):
great operating restaurant hurtsyou know obviously in a space
that's built for a restaurantlikely the next restaurant is
going to come and fill that voidand you know that's just the cycle
of it to me the real loss is likeyou're losing these awesome
entrepreneurs that have beeninvested here for years and you
know for a guy like that to youknow be raising a family here too
and then to feel kind of likepushed out and to go back to
(02:37):
alberto a little bit more is ispretty sad you know like that's
the loss like restaurants like tryto make waste and not boom in the
summer so they're basicallycreating restaurants that are for
the locals rather than for thetourists restaurants like try to
make waste and not boom in thesummer so they're basically
creating restaurants that are forthe locals rather than for the
tourists It changes the vibe asKelowna being like a tourist
(03:00):
destination in the summer, whichcould affect longer term for like
once the economy does bounce back,it looks shorter rentals to
straighten out and stuff likethat.
Slow the recovery because of themindset shift with the business
owners in town.
Yeah.
I mean, it's a hard thing tocomment on because like selfishly
we like having, you know, our cityto be a little bit more locally
run and having less, you know,traffic, but on the same sense,
like.
having that tourism boom is fun
once in a while it creates eventsand vibrancy and economic
(03:20):
stability like that injection tocash in the summer so to have like
that perfect blend between the twois is hard to do but when you're
getting a form of interventionthat limits that owner operator
entrepreneur on their own visionis brutal you know it's so sad to
see so anyways he's stilloperating some very successful
restaurants here that are doingawesome It's just that Salt Brick
(03:41):
specifically just wasn't workingout the way they needed it to.
And then with the short termrental ban, are then with the
short term rental ban, like thecity of Kelowna, I've been hearing
more and more.
We should have Ryan Smith on again
to talk about this because I thinkhe's recommending that they bring
back short term rentals to thecity.
But the problem with this is thatit's not really.
(04:04):
up to the city if our vacancy ratelowers again to under two or under
three or whatever it is whateverit's supposed to be like i think
the choices just get taken off thetable to have because they're
talking about applying to theprovince to have an exemption for
a certain amount of buildingswhether it's the same ones that
were before or not it obviously wedon't know exactly what he's going
to recommend but if he even doesthat that only applies if it's
over the Vacancy rate.
(04:24):
So we have a lot of rental
buildings coming up right now.
I don't foresee the vacancy rate
going down in the next two yearsor like in the short term
timeframe, but like for arestaurant or a business to open
up, they kind of got to looklonger term than that.
And if you just have no ideawhat's going to happen in three,
four years, like how do you builda business when you just don't
know what's going to go down?Totally.
Yeah.
(04:44):
We really need the vacancy.
yeah to be above that threepercent but then they also need to
lobby at parliament for exclusionon you know saying hey these
specific property addresses thesebuildings that are purposely built
for you know a resort stylecommunity short -term rentals yeah
like whatever happens the vacancyshould not matter you know like we
need some commitment no exactlyprovincially can't just change
every few years that's crazy howis anyone supposed to plan
anything like that it feels likewe've obviously talked about this
(05:04):
a ton on the show but whensomething happens we just pull all
the levers try and fix it and thenit goes the other way now you
almost don't want it to pull allthe levers the other way like for
the love of god just let thingswork out a bit right let him
prevent him and just just changeevery few years that's crazy how
(05:26):
is anyone supposed to plananything like that it feels like
we've obviously talked about thisa ton on the show but when
something happens we just pull allthe levers try and fix it and then
it goes the other way now youalmost don't want it to pull all
the levers the other way like forthe love of god just let things
work out a bit right let himprevent him and just follow the
market kind of where it's at it'sa tough one to do you know it's
not just up to the city and i feellike the city kind of got behind
themselves a bit when they tookthe legislation that the province
passed and then added more on topright so they've made it more
cumbersome than that even theprovince said and now they're
going back the other way to tryand claw that back to less than
what the province says right sokind of like it almost erodes the
credibility they have with theprovince with this yeah oh totally
and like you know city of westcolonna and penticton have both
(05:47):
been pushing back against itpretty aggressively now they're
allowed to obviously with vacancyrates where they are but um we
need colonna to jump on board abit more and touch base with the
local entrepreneurs like casey aswell you know like these are guys
that they should be hearing theirvoice a little bit more so I think
where his restaurants are likewe're talking like right on the
water like two locations rightdown Bernard right in the most
prime locations we have Clementand Ellis we have pretty not bad
(06:08):
and then we have right across thestreet from gyro like very high
profile locations all of hisrestaurants and think where his
restaurants are like we're talkinglike right on the water like two
locations right down Bernard rightin the most prime locations we
have Clement and Ellis we havepretty not bad and then we have
right across the street from gyrolike very high profile locations
all of his restaurants and For himto say that he's starting like
(06:29):
this is like just saying a lot.
You know, like you have an
experienced owner with resourcesin the high profile locations that
still is having a tough time.
It's just like, it should be an
eye opener for everybody.
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, I think we should just diveinto the show because I agree.
Pretty interesting guy.
And outside this, yeah, go to one
of the restaurant and bars andhave a drink, have some dinner and
support him.
You know, he's a local restaurant
here.
Yeah, absolutely.
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All right, Casey Grable.
How are you doing, man?
Crazy weekend and it was a weekendof bricks and stuff going on
(07:09):
outside of that.
it was a weekend of bricks and
stuff going on outside of that.
I was sick of a little boy at home
today.
So, you know, that.
I know, going with the flow.
Well, maybe you can give us a bit
of a rundown on your background,who you are, what you're doing.
For sure.
Yeah.
I mean, I started coming to Quonoa lot in, geez, 2006.
(07:30):
Then started looking at businessopportunities over time.
Took over 10 years to pull thetrigger.
Got connected with someone througha mutual friend that really wanted
to do a restaurant project withme.
So we did salt and brick.
We bought the original, which was
the salted brick.
We didn't tweak the name much.
We did a big reno, but it wassalted brick.
(07:51):
And one of the main reasons webought it is that a really great
culinary reputation and we reallywanted to own kind of a quaint
little.
restaurant project, then tweak it
to some of the things that I'dseen.
I live in Calgary and I've livedin Calgary since 2006, 2007, I
guess.
So I've seen obviously a lot of
concepts come through Calgary andsome of which I hadn't seen come
to Kelowna.
So at that point, we really wanted
to focus on the local wine andthen, you know, share plates,
(08:15):
small plates, dining.
And then quickly we ended up doing
Jack's, which was Beccaro beforeus, which was three doors down on
Bernard as well.
Turn that into a cocktail bar.
Initially, it was cocktails andpizza.
Treat the format over the years.
Then right before COVID, we signed
a deal to do Diner Deluxe acrossfrom Cairo Beach.
So we have Diner Deluxe there.
That was a very interesting
experiment, opening right in theheart of COVID.
You know, we opened in that June.
COVID had been on for like three
(08:37):
months.
So very unique experience.
Obviously, Kelowna experienced alot of uniqueness in the COVID
times.
Probably the most tourism we've
seen, I would actually say, whichis a little bit backwards.
But did that project.
And then, yeah, just two years
ago, a little over two years ago,got a call that, you know, the guy
who had.
a bad tattoo in Kelowna, was
looking to get out of the Kelownalocation.
We had no plan for it, no ideasfor it or anything, but we were
(09:01):
like, this is a cool space.
And the previous owner put a lot
of money into the infrastructure,especially the kitchen.
So we were like, okay, let's comeup with something.
And I had this name in the back ofmy head for a while called Pretty
Not Bad that one of my nowpartners in that venture.
And so we were like, you know,does Kelowna need another sports
bar?Does Kelowna have a sports bar?
(09:21):
If we call it unconventionalsports bar, does it work?
So that was our fourth project.
As I mentioned, this last Sunday
was our last day of service atSalt and Brick.
It's just, you know,unfortunately, just has not
performed the way we previouslyperformed, especially over the
summers, the last two summers.
In the summers previously, we
would have done almost twice asgood sales as we did this last two
summers.
Lots of factors, I think, at play,
(09:41):
and definitely not all of them outof my control or out of our team's
control, but a lot of them, Ithink, for sure were.
So, yeah, kind of in aninteresting middle ground.
We had sold Jack's almost twoyears ago, so right now we just
are going to have the two projectsgoing forward with Pretty Not Bad
and Diner Lux.
Wow, that's incredible, man.
Well, I'm happy to say I've beento all of those venues, and I,
yeah.
Yeah, I think anybody can go on a
hat, anybody can go on a hat, so.
(10:01):
Is your first restaurant that you
opened then with Salt Lake Brick?Well, my first restaurant I opened
was in 2004 in Edmonton.
Long, long, long ago.
I don't think we wanted to go backthat far.
I know my eyes date myself alittle bit, but...
My very first restaurant I openedwas in 2004 in Edmonton called
Sapphire.
Learned a lot of lessons there.
And then, yeah, took a hiatus fromthe restaurant industry for a
(10:22):
while.
And then jumped back into it with
the other job that I have, being Ioversee a brand called Greta Bar.
So we have Greta Bars all acrossthe country.
We just opened in Toronto lastyear.
And that brand is a partner brandwith Hudson's Pubs.
And don't have any Hudson's Pubsin BC, but at one point we had 11
locations, 10 in Alberta, one inSaskatoon.
They currently have six.
I'm not super actively involved on
that brand, but we are, you know,closely associated.
So I oversee the four Gretas.
(10:43):
And then that same group is
actually who did Salt and BrickCalgary.
So the Calgary location is acompletely different, you know,
partnership group other thanmyself, than the Colona location.
What I loved about the Colona wasthat it was 952 square feet or
whatever the math is on that andhow much my culinary team could do
with so little resources.
basically an oven and some
induction burners, and those guysput out world -class food every
day for eight years.
Whereas the Calgary one was like,
they got all the bells andwhistles in the Calgary one.
(11:05):
They got the full -out kitchen,anything our chef really asked
for, he got.
It's a beautiful space, has a
speakeasy in the back.
So yeah, I mean, I've been all
over the map in the hospitalityworld over the years, right?
Why does everybody land somewhere?It was about a girl.
Is that ultimately not whyeveryone ends up somewhere, I
feel?The backstory, which we'll keep
very brief, my partner back thenhad a little boy who lived in
(11:25):
Kelowna and wasn't able to move.
And so it was like if I wanted to
start a life with her and her son,it would have been having to be in
Kelowna.
So I looked around for jobs for a
very short time and realized whatI did in Alberta.
didn't really exist in a city asmallest border and i didn't want
to travel a ton so i was like allright like let's start make clean
(11:46):
clone a home i actually gave mynotice to my business partner in
the greta hudson's world twice twoyears in a row i gave him okay one
more year one more year and thenthe crazy thing out of it all was
that the greta project came up andlike i looked back on that project
which you know we came up with theconcept i think late 2017 and we
were open november 2018 in ourfirst location in calgary and
Basically, my deal with my partnerat that point was like, put off
(12:12):
moving to Kelowna fully and runthis brand, but I'm okay with you
having these projects in Kelowna,you know, as long as those
projects, you know, don't require,you know, full time from you.
You know, when you talk about theKelowna story, that's always been
the tough one for me is I've neverlived in Kelowna fully.
(12:32):
You know, we own a house inMcKinley, but when the short -term
rental rules changed, it became along -term rental instead of a
short -term rental.
You know, we bought the house
specifically with the mindset thatwe would short term rent, you
know, three weeks out of a monthand then we'd be there one week
out of the month.
And that was with my new partner
and my two little kids.
And so, you know, that dream went
out the window very quickly.
(12:53):
It was literally, I think we
bought in June.
I can't remember when the law
changed fully.
I think it was May, but you know,
between that 11 month span,obviously short -term rentals
became not a possibility.
And so, yeah, we had to make the
call of just finding a long -termrenter.
And so I actually, it's been overa year since we've lived in that
house we have in Kelowna.
We're going to jump into the short
(13:13):
-term rental thing here in asecond, going to jump into the
short -term rental thing here in asecond, but like you have
experience all over the country.
So what's it like to run a
restaurant in Kelowna compared toother places?
There's very few places in theworld that I could say that I've
been to and traveled to that Ithink would be as challenging as
Kelowna.
And that's for lots of reasons.
I mean, right off the bat,seasonality.
(13:33):
And I know that Kelowna isobviously experiencing growth.
Actually, maybe not in the lastyear, but had been experiencing
pretty amazing growth for years.
And I know that there's a great
Kelowna 2040 plan.
And I had lots of chats with the
previous mayor when he was inoffice and a little couple of
chats with the current mayor aboutwhere Kelowna is going.
And I think for me and for whatI've experienced with restaurants,
is just the swings of the busyseason and slow season are just
really tough to take in allaspects, whether that be revenue
(13:54):
and cash management and inventoryand all that, or whether it be on
the other side of that with, youknow, like staffing and keeping
good staff and every year havingto have this hiring cycle where
you go, even with smallrestaurants, you know, like Salt
and Brick in the winter and Jack'sin the winter, I think our first
or second winter, I might add like10 staff total between the two
places.
So if someone's sick or anything
like that happened, That wasalways a challenge.
And then you got to scale up inthe summer.
So I always have found thatseasonality played into it.
(14:16):
The fires 1000 % play into it.
We used to be a partner with a
wedding venue for Salt and Brickand it was a huge piece of our
business for several years.
But like August weddings just
stopped happening.
It was part of the reason the
partnership ended up changing wasbecause like you truly like one of
the months of the year.
So again, hiring a chef and then
having one or two weddings and allof August for him to work, you
know, or her to work wasn'tenough.
(14:37):
So I definitely think the firesare a challenging part of Kelowna.
And when we have two years in arow without major fires, I believe
that's a good thing.
I think it's a good thing for the
real estate.
I think it's a good thing for
tourism.
There are a lot of people in
Alberta that I know personallythat have places in Kelowna that
had that same mentality of like,we'll go to Kelowna for the summer
(15:00):
until the first fire hits.
And then we might not come back
for the rest of the summer unlessit can be contained.
Those ones were probably theseasonality of the second one.
And then, yeah, we can talk aboutthe short -term rentals when you
want.
because i had a property that's a
short -term rental i have arestaurant in a building that had
short -term rentals above it thathad to convert and then obviously
had multiple other businesses inthe city like i can definitely
speak to my true opinions on theshort -term rental changes let
(15:23):
your true opinions fly immediatelyyour true opinions fly immediately
Yeah, I mean, so I'm a prettytransparent guy when it comes to
numbers and things with businessbecause I don't think there's any
reason to kind of usually hideback.
But we basically experienced anover 30 % drop at Diner Deluxe
below, you know, the shores acrossfrom Gyro there.
Like overnight, like almost ourwhole drop was May 1 of last year
until August 31 or maybe September30th.
It was almost all contained inthose months.
The rest of the year, we were kindof flat.
(15:45):
Actually, we were trending reallywell going into it.
And that building at 1 % lastsummer, I'm pretty confident was
at 12 % occupancy because theywere converting from a short -term
rental to a long -term rentalbuilding.
So it was very clear and apparentthat like, hey, this isn't
something we're really doing wrongas operators.
The same chef had a very similarstaff.
We have been able to claw backsome of those numbers this summer.
Same team as well.
So I look back at that $300 ,000
dip and be like, that was...
almost entirely related to short
(16:06):
-term rentals.
I'm sure there was a component of
it related to the fires.
There's a component of it related
to economic, you know, micro andmacroeconomic conditions and
inflationary times.
Overall, I was like, look back at
it.
I go like short -term rentals is
what did that.
And you just look at all these
purpose -built buildings that haverestaurant retail spaces in them
that can't lease them becausethey're not allowed to do short
-term rentals currently.
(16:27):
And it's just organic.
To me, it looks abundantly clear.
And there's been some great
studies.
There's a big one out in New York
that was comparing a long -termbuilding above you as a tenant to
a short -term building.
And Airbnb did the study, so maybe
it's a little skewed in theirfavor.
But the end result was like, as anoperator of a restaurant in a
(16:47):
building with short -term rentals,I should expect two to three
visits a week from each unit.
From a long -term rental building,
it's two to three a month.
So like 75 % traffic down right
there, just if you're relying onthat.
When I go back to my frustrationson the changes is I never buy my
house in McKinley if I thoughtthose changes would come into
effect.
I never probably do a restaurant
in a building that has beenapproved for short -term rentals
(17:10):
either.
So that's where maybe some of my
bitterness and tone comes from it.
The other one I would say on short
-term rentals that I've justreally seen is obviously the
effect on downtown.
At the end of the day, we were one
of the biggest proponents of theMeet Me on Bernard program.
We were a huge fan of that.
We loved it.
We really wanted it to get towhere the previous mayor wanted
it, which was that you could haveopen alcohol and it could be more
(17:36):
of almost like a European vibe.
We loved that idea.
Last year, I didn't even do theextended patio at Salt and Brick.
So that, you know, to me, it wentfrom being this huge positive and
it's just like to actually being anegative because there was costs
obviously we incurred with thoseextended patios.
And I was like, I lost money bydoing that extended patio in 2024.
So in 2025, I opted against it.
So again, we're just not seeing
that downtown traffic like we usedto.
(17:56):
And as mentioned earlier, some ofthat downtown traffic, especially
during COVID, was almost anegative for our city and got us
highlighted on national news acouple of times.
And I don't know if that's thechange.
We really thought maybe thissummer with the tariffs and stuff,
we would see an upswing.
Yeah, I think we saw some of it
for sure.
Like I said, two of the three
businesses I have in Kelowna areup.
(18:16):
so you know that is a positivesign but they're not up to the
levels of two years ago where theywere you know before the fires
before the short -term rentals andmy last comment on the thing is i
just have never understood theinclusion of like luxury
properties in short -term rentalsat the end of the day i fully
support the idea like most of mystaff relies on you know better
cheaper accommodations most of mystaff are multiple people in a
(18:38):
house or two people sharing acondo you know like i fully get
that there's a need for let's callit sub $2 ,000 in our market
housing, but like someone who ownsa $2 million home, they're not
going to take that hit.
And there's not enough people that
are going to take the hit to havethat trickle down effect happen.
So what I saw with that was allthe large groups, the friends that
I have coming in from Calgary.
(18:59):
stop coming because they weren't
going to do six guys or six girlsin a hotel room at the delta grand
and pay more money than they paidthe year before for a you know
five million dollar mansion rightthat was my final thought on short
term rentals yeah i mean there's aton to back there my question is i
thought the shore was that stillnot operating as a short -term
rental building because it's likea commercial hotel use oh even
(19:19):
their license got i mean there's aton to back there my question is i
thought the shore was that stillnot operating as a short -term
rental building because it's likea commercial hotel use even their
license got adjusted or whateverso i would tell you 1000 when i
went to my landlord for rentrelief when we saw the drop he was
like i'm losing a lot more thanyou are casey I think almost like
the narrative that Airbnb isbasically dead here just limits
(19:40):
people's investigation and cominghere in the first place.
Like, oh, why would we go there?You know, like no one wants to
sniff around for like the 400units that are available.
And there was 2 ,500 abundantlyavailable before.
And then, yeah, with the BernardStreet, like being like Europe,
totally, man.
Like we just got back from Europe
and like that is such a culturalpiece that we're missing here.
Like, why don't you think that'sreally taken off?
Because it feels like every yearwe're trying to do it.
(20:02):
It just doesn't gain enoughtraction to really.
be where it needs to be i'll behonest like i just think it was a
vision from the previous mayor andcouncil and it wasn't the similar
vision with the current mayor ofcouncil i think that's as simple i
don't know like there's obviouslysome awesome i'll be honest like i
just think it was a vision fromthe previous mayor and council and
it wasn't the similar vision withthe current mayor of council i
(20:23):
think that's as simple i don'tknow like there's obviously some
awesome big players in therestaurant game that are still
doing incredibly well in Klona.
And that's why I'll never just
blame all the bigger factors.
Like at the end of the day,
there's new restaurants that havemoved into Klona that are doing
incredibly well.
You know, Ken and Fo, Humo, Ask
Pablo.
You know, Kyle has done just an
amazing job with, you know, allthe projects he has and was
(20:44):
definitely someone I tried toemulate a little bit by doing
Pretty Not Bad because it was thefirst business we did that wasn't.
for tourists i would say salt andbrick and jacks even diner deluxe
being across from gyro in a short-term rental building they were
all built with the mindset of likewe're gonna get these huge summers
where it's pretty not bad it'slike there's no sports in the
summer like sports are gone so ifyour main concept is sports and
you're not pulling a spot it'splus 38 you know i'm not choosing
a sports bar over a boat or a poolor something to that effect so but
i think just overall to yourquestion is like you just you need
(21:07):
a cumulative group of people thathave a collective vision to get
there.
And I haven't really seen that
from downtown Kelowna.
I'll be honest, I'm not really
seeing it in other markets.
The last time we really saw that
of like restaurateurs reallygetting together and bonding
together was COVID because we allhad this shared purpose of, you
know, getting government supportand landlord support and all that
stuff.
I haven't really seen that,
whether it be Kelowna or whetherit be abroad.
(21:27):
So I'm sure there's a lot ofrestaurants that still work really
closely together.
I have lots of people I reach out
to for advice.
You know, PJ will craft next door
to us.
I talk to him all the time about
things.
You know, I for years talked to
Kyle about a lot of that stuff.
So there's obviously people that
are still thriving, though, whichis a good thing.
But for an idea like what Mediumor Bernard was supposed to be, it
just didn't have enough pullthrough, maybe not enough city
support.
And then, yeah, when the council
and mayor changed, it just kind ofwas like, OK, we'll keep doing it.
But we're not going to reallyinvest in it.
And every year, obviously one yearit was 200, 300 and 400 block.
(21:49):
And then it became 200 and 300block.
And now for the most part, I thinkit's still 200 and 300 block, but
it's mainly just the 200 blockthat sees any action from it.
And there's just no vibe andenergy.
Like I remember last summer whenmy first trip, once we had
extended patio, it was a Tuesdaynight or something, but it was
like a ghost town.
Even the summer before there was a
good energy and vibe on a Mondayor Tuesday.
this was like okay no one'sextended patios were even open and
(22:11):
when that kind of stuff happens itstarts to look like a negative
like nobody wants to go somewherethat's got no customers right yeah
i think it was last summer i wentto earl's it was august but we
went there in the middle of theweek for lunch and we were the
only people in the restaurant sowhat on earth is going on here
which is crazy right yeah you justexpect it to be busy every day
(22:31):
from may long to labor day yeahwhen we opened in 2017 like i
fully had the conversation iremembered kyle nixon sharing a
story with me from when he wasstill at the el dorado his family
was wants to go somewhere that'sgot no customers right yeah i
think it was last summer i went toearl's it was august but we went
there in the middle of the weekfor lunch and we were the only
people in the restaurant so whaton earth is going on here which is
(22:52):
crazy right yeah you just expectit to be busy every day from may
long to labor day when we openedin 2017 like i fully had the
conversation i remembered kylenixon sharing a story with me from
when he was still at the el doradohis family was there and he was
sharing a story of the bar thatwas in the bottom it's basil and
mint now but cabana then i thinkand he just was sharing a story
about how like i think it was likethe two days after september long
(23:13):
they were just like out on thestreet and they popped over the el
dorado and be like what is goingon it's like this is toronto you
know literally september long endsyou know have seven months eight
months to figure it all out and torun a very cost efficient business
and again when i look back at saltand brick i go like we just didn't
have the summers that were busyenough to offset the winters that
were slow you know and that'sreally what led to the decision to
close that and move forward withtrying to find a new operator for
(23:35):
that spot It's so funny becausewe've talked a lot on this podcast
about how Kelowna is like madecity for something like a short
term rental.
We just boom in the summer and
then that off season just turnsinto a college town.
So to hear a restaurant person saythat, like, obviously we all know
this, but like to make all yourmoney in the summer, then be so
affected.
It's kind of crazy.
This went through like this.
Yeah, it just seems so obvious
again.
And there was a couple areas that
could be fixed very easily.
(23:56):
And, and maybe I think it's in
May.
I'm pretty sure like when we get
the.
rental averages and we're well
above the two percent like maybecolonel will be close to ten
percent with all these buildingsthat are are getting completed and
to my knowledge are not gettingoccupied you guys would really
know that better than me how manyof those units are being i mean i
can see the retail units aren'tgetting rented are the actual
tenants going into you know theaquas and the water street by the
parks and stuff i don't know imean i remember looking at leasing
a space in one water street andthis would have been pre -fire
that same year but pre -fire and iremember talking to the two
gentlemen who did that project andthe project we're doing was
actually not a full restaurant.
And I just had like one of my
questions to them was just like,they both lived in the building.
I was like, okay, how often areyou guys here?
And they were like 20, 30 % of thetime.
And right away, I was just like,how often are the rest of the
people in this building here?Do you feel like, I mean, this was
(24:19):
my kind of take over the lastcouple of years and tell me if I'm
off with you or not, but like, youknow, when provincial legislation
came out and then the cityobviously followed suit and then
actually upped the ante a littlebit and made it more strict.
You know, personally, I felt likea little bit betrayed, obviously
from both governments, you know,I'm optimistic that it will swing
back and they'll allow short -termrentals in certain.
zoned buildings you know howaggressive they get with it i'm
(24:40):
not sure but like even if theycome back with it i'm still not
really going to trust that they'llpull that run out again in the
future but as like a businessentrepreneur owner of restaurants
do you think if they did come backwith you know more allowance on
short -term rental would theconfidence come back for your
group of entrepreneurs in cologneand be like okay We see that there
is an opportunity here.
We're going to go back in all in.
Or are you guys going to kind ofsit on the sidelines?
(25:03):
You know what?We kind of got screwed over once
on this.
Like we're just not willing to
take that risk again.
as like a More people will adopt
that philosophy that I said aboutfree not bad and what the next
restaurant group, which is like,don't build your business based
on.
you know summertime being this
boom you know like build yourbusiness on knowing that it needs
to be sustainable year round andthat if you get a nice up in the
summer even better kind of thinglike don't build your business
(25:25):
based on huge fatios another greatexample would be and again i don't
i know a lot of this stuff becausei obviously at one point was very
active and wanting to fully moveto kelowna and do more projects
but like the base space in aqua isthis incredible opportunity and to
my knowledge and i haven't got anupdate recently but i drove by it
in a recent trip you guys mightknow i don't believe it's been
leased you know and that's thekind of space that like you could
(25:46):
do an eldorado -esque conceptrestaurant concept there but it
would be millions of dollars andlike is somebody willing to do
that I don't know if they areright now in the current climate,
especially knowing that thosebuildings were, for the most part,
purpose -built to be short -termrentals and to see that big upside
in the summertime.
Yeah, I mean, like my first
experience in Kelowna was stayingin a short -term rental building
(26:47):
for two weeks.
Again, like I just remember the
vibrancy and like everyone's justthere.
How you vacation is just sodifferent than how you live your
day -to -day life.
So again, you talk about a long
-term rental.
versus a short -term rental like
and you own a restaurant downbelow it you're gonna see that you
know and i can only speak formyself i don't know if you know
shoreline brewing right beside mehas experienced the same situation
as myself but i would be surprisedif it hasn't so taylor you're
(27:11):
asking like basically if the ruleschange will people come back but
the funny thing is that even ifthe collota changes the rules if
our vacancy ever goes low enoughit just automatically can't do it
yeah i think the only way and i'vehad this conversation with my
landlord's representatives at theshores like basically if the rules
change will people come back butthe funny thing is that even if
the collota changes the rules ifour vacancy ever goes low enough
(27:32):
it just automatically can't do iti think the only way and i've had
this conversation with mylandlord's representatives at the
shores like they would be farpressed to reconvert back to short
term rentals.
With that risk of two more years
from now, I'm now going to haveanother summer.
where i basically have to start mywhole project and then obviously
during the two years you changethings with your model just like
we change things with our model ifyou're not seeing the same volumes
(27:52):
and stuff i chose not to do theextended patio for them all their
units were fully suited right likethey came fully furnished and
they've moved away from that modeland some of their units right so
now you're talking about buyingnew furniture and doing this stuff
and it would be a big investmentso i think if you only had the
promise that hey if it stays abovepeople set that's the only way i
don't know if that would work whata loss for kelowna because like
(28:14):
you have people like yourself andall the other uh like businesses
in kelowna that rely on the summerboom that are just not going to
embrace it and not going to likebuild their businesses around it
and then like you just think likesomeone trying to do like a
festival in the summer and it'slike are you gonna do that when
all the businesses around are justbasically pandering to the locals
you know like it just kind ofchanges the vibe of it in the long
(28:36):
term yeah don't know if that wouldwork what a loss for kelowna
because like you have people likeyourself and all the other uh like
businesses in kelowna that rely onthe summer boom that are just not
going to embrace it and not goingto like build their businesses
around it and then like you justthink like someone trying to do
like a festival in the summer andit's like are you gonna do that
when all the businesses around arejust basically pandering to the
locals you know like it just kindof changes the vibe of it in the
(29:00):
long term yeah Yeah, I mean, Ithink obviously the simple and
quick fix of short term rentalswould be purpose built buildings
being exempt and maybe luxuryhomes also being exempt.
I don't think either of thosethings would be super difficult to
do.
And you can also just grandfather
purpose built buildings before2024, even if they weren't
completed and just say, OK,there's no more of this and people
can change their model like anomission group has adjusted their
model to more rental based.
(29:21):
And I know that some of the other
big builders would continue to dothe same.
Yeah, to me, such a simple fix.
And not just for us, but all these
other communities, you know,around BC that rely on tourism.
Again, just giving them, like yousaid, the long -term certainty.
And hey, maybe you don't have tosay it's forever.
Maybe there's a commitment thatit's five years.
And then, hey, for a landlord thatsays to me that they had, you
know, like an 80 % decrease intheir revenue over a summer.
Okay, if you're changing back forfive years, now that starts to be
like, okay, economically, thisprobably makes sense for me to
change my model back.
But it's just for two years, maybe
not.
(29:41):
And again, on the restaurant side,
most of us are signing five to 10-year leases.
Maybe that's another thoughtprocess for restaurateurs, right?
So I just think the one thing Ibelieve so strongly in now after
my experiences is like, you know,the guys and girls who are doing
so great in the restaurantindustry, it's because they're
local.
It's because they're at the
grocery store that you're at.
It's because you see them
everywhere.
And people just inherently...
truly want to support them and youknow i think one of my flaws is
(30:05):
that over time as we talked aboutearlier like i've been in colina
less and less you know i wasworking so hard to become a local
and i ended up you know kind ofgoing the opposite way like you
know we talked about airbnbs i hadan airbnb in mexico this summer
and my family chose to go tomexico instead of colina this
summer because my wife just didn'twant me to be around work all
summer long and it was just likeit was cheaper like i made more
(30:26):
money on my long -term rental andwhat it cost me to spend time in
Mexico this summer.
So, you know, like that's an
example of like, obviously I putmost of my money back into Kona's
economy at my own restaurants, butyou know, someone like myself, if
you minus, you know, four weeksof.
you know, $2 ,000 to $3 ,000minimum spending at restaurants
and bars, you know, it's $12 ,000out of the economy just for one
person, one family, you know?So yeah, again, I think
economically it just makes nosense, but I do get the other side
of the equation that there needsto be affordable housing in all
markets and every market does itdifferently.
Like I'm not a fan of howVancouver does it either.
So, but we can do that on adifferent podcast.
I was going to ask you, like, soyou have a restaurant in
Vancouver.
Vancouver's a bigger city.
It wasn't affected the same way.
We have a Greta bar in Gastown,
and I would tell you the short-term rentals I don't think
affected us at all.
Okay.
That's kind of what I figured.
(30:49):
I mean, the one area that would
have affected us is, like, we allknow the one main group that
benefits from the short -termrental rules is the hotels.
So there's no question.
Like, I don't know if you guys
have tried to stay in a hotel inVancouver in the summer in the
last couple of years, but, like,ever since they got rid of short
-term rentals, like, or minimizedthem to previously licensed ones,
(31:09):
the cost to stay at... any hotelalmost doubled like i couldn't
even tell you guys i got a greatrate a couple of the places we
work with a lot and i travel to alot and that great rate was at
least double and was moreexpensive than staying in downtown
toronto on a blue jays game nightand you know like right by our
location there and it's just likeand that's been a trend now for i
think three summers in a row so ithink it started shifting even
(31:31):
before georgia rentals but it'sjust gotten worse and worse so i
don't really think about going tovancouver unless i have to in the
summertime anymore Geographicallyacross Canada, where would be your
optimal spot to open a newrestaurant?
Well, we're opening a Greta bar inWinnipeg.
I think I'm allowed to say that.
That's going to be an interesting
one.
I mean, we've done incredibly
well.
Obviously we're an Alberta based
company, that brand.
So we've obviously done really
well in Alberta over the years andwe've experienced a lot of success
(31:54):
in Saskatoon.
So yeah, we're hoping that the
Winnipeg one that we do next fallis a big success.
restaurant wise you know it's sucha debate like the amount of people
that come to either salt and brickbut especially of late just
because salt and brick calgary isso much bigger i get more people
commenting and so much newer theamount of people that especially
even hospitality people are likedo this in vancouver do this in
toronto and it's like you knowthere's one of those you know
comfort and confidence things youjust have to build over time with
(32:16):
other markets it's funny where iwas this weekend we were in
philadelphia and i was like thismarket is incredible so maybe the
next restaurant goes to the us notto can know donald would like that
yeah yeah donald would like thatand what's the general take i mean
you've kind of touched on this acouple times obviously being in
alberta but i feel like we've seenless albertans come here over the
last couple years and likemigration wise yeah we're
(32:36):
obviously not seeing the increasein population in bc this year yeah
are albertans just kind of stayingaround home or are they traveling
elsewhere why i'm seeing so manycool would that what's the general
take i mean you've kind of touchedon this a couple times obviously
being in alberta but i feel likewe've seen less albertans come
here over the last couple yearsand like migration wise yeah we're
obviously not seeing the increasein population in bc this year yeah
are albertans just kind of stayingaround home or are they traveling
(32:58):
elsewhere why i'm seeing so manycool that's funny i was in a
meeting the other day and the guymentioned he went back to bc for
the first time in several yearsand he he was upset about some of
the tax stuff and some of the backand forth things that happened
between our provinces severalyears ago and he still harbored
that resentment A lot of it isaffordability.
My most recent trip to Kelowna,and it was literally the most
beautiful day.
And I like, I texted my wife.
I'm like, this is why I loveKelowna.
(33:19):
I was like, I literally landed.
I was at the airport, blue skies,
got close down to the water, tothe restaurant.
It's like beautiful water.
You know, it was like mid to late
September.
So I'm like, this is why you live
in like, and that was always myfavorite part about Kelowna and
will continue to be in the longrun is the falls, you know, like
the spring and the fall before itbecomes more touristy.
(33:39):
I've always been in my favoritetimes.
Yeah.
All right.
Well, maybe we should get into ourwrap up questions here.
This should be an interestingquestion for you.
But if you could buy one propertyin the Okanagan in the next 12
months, what would it be?be?
Short -term rentals allowed or notallowed?
Currently not allowed.
Honestly, knowing where the
housing market is going and whereit's gone over the last two years,
like I love McKinley.
I think it's such an awesome area.
(34:01):
It's 15 minutes for me.
to pretty not bad on Clement.
Obviously, the amenity centerfinally got open last year.
There's the winery coming.
You're just going to see more
stuff go out that way.
I think it's an amazing area.
And I know how much my house hasdepreciated since I bought it.
So I'm like, if I could buy atpresent prices, I'd buy again in
McKinley.
I would just do it knowing I'm
probably not going to be able todo short -term rentals there.
(34:22):
That would be the big delta.
And I have no idea.
Again, you guys are the experts.
I have no idea if not doing short
-term rentals in McKinley is partof why the price has dropped
there.
I'm not sure.
I have no idea how many people.
bought in that area like me with
the mindset of this is a summerhome that i'd like to be able to
visit throughout the year i feellike some i don't know how much
(34:42):
percentage that is and i don'tknow how much that would lead to
uh a drop in the market definitelybeen affected like mckinley beach
was definitely affected with thatyeah people have that same mindset
been affected like mckinley beachwas definitely affected with that
yeah people have that same mindsetCasey, if you could give yourself
or your son, when they're 20 yearsold, some advice, what would it
be?My advice always goes back and
(35:03):
forth.
I have a five and a three -year
-old, you know, and my advice tothem when it comes to like their
future is obviously like whateveryou're passionate about, you just
pursue it and pursue it almostwith like an obsessive mentality.
I believe obsession is like ahealthy word at times.
It can definitely go the wrongway, but it's like whatever it is,
whether it's sports, whether it's,you know, art.
dance whatever my kids arepassionate about like if you're
passionate about it like that'swhat you should pursue don't
pursue something just because youthink it's the right thing to do
or or something to that effect andthen i just like i just believe in
being a good person you know itsucks sometimes when you are a
good person you feel like you getto get advantage of at times but i
just deep down just be a goodperson and good things will happen
to you yeah i love it what's yourfavorite charity or how do you get
(35:26):
back i love it what's yourfavorite charity or how do you get
back so for the last several yearsthere's a charity in calgary that
i joined a while back at therequest of a friend called one
ball kind of a random one but youcan probably guess what it is it's
testicular cancer charity so i wasalways you know super passionate
about that i wasn't a survivorunlike most of the people on our
(35:46):
board but i just really believedin a charity that's focus was on
giving people the opportunity tohave children one day like that
was a lot of the focus was usingfunds so people could you know do
what needs to be done to ensurethat they can have kids down the
road but yeah i mean i always leanFor the most part, I always lean
to anything with kids, anythingwith dogs.
Those are my big ones.
Right now, my number one charity
donation is my good friend ZachDonoranowski.
He's at MD Motivator on Instagram.
(36:07):
There's no way you haven't seen
him if you're on Instagram.
But like, I can't not donate.
So he does the crowd funds all thetime to the people that he tries
to help.
Like, I cannot not donate to
anything he does because thestories are just so emotional and
they're just amazing.
And I'm just like, the guy blows
me away every day with hisgenerosity and what he's doing for
(36:28):
the world.
Nice.
Nice.
All right.
So besides a lot of people goingto pretty, not bad to have a beer
and watch a football game.
How can Taylor or a listener help
you?Yeah.
I mean, I think that's the numberone thing I don't ever want to say
it negatively, but like the amountof photos I see on my social media
from.
Cactus Club in Kelowna.
And again, local people runningit, local people involved, but
like supporting the smallindependence.
Like one of the greatest thingsthat happened in COVID was like
the larger chain restaurants hadto run at 70 % capacity or
(36:48):
whatever it was.
And it forced people to go try
places for the first time.
And obviously there was also this
huge support local movement inthat time as well.
Yeah.
if we could channel that positive
side of what happened throughcovid like that would be the way
so yeah i mean obviously you knowpretty not bad is you know a great
sports spot it's great spot ingeneral awesome pizza my managing
partner there jack harry will takecare of everyone he just even
started doing 9 30 a m soccer games at his own decision
which you know i can't even thinkabout opening up at 9 30 at my age
(37:12):
now but uh But yeah, I mean, we dogreat with the NFL and the sports
there, but it's a good spot allthe time.
Yeah.
Kind of lucks to me is, I mean, we
won best brunch in Kelowna thevery first year we opened.
Haven't been able to get back ontop since, but we're always
driving for that.
And yeah, I think the team we have
at both those spots are amazing.
And Salton Brick's still available
for private functions until thenew year.
(37:33):
So if anyone just misses SaltonBrick, just...
Give me a call, send me a text,hit me on social media and I'm
happy to accommodate.
How many people can you have a
salt and brick?Depends, standing or seated, but
like between 30 and 45.
I Nice, nice.
I might have to heat up for that.
I also know from personal
experience that pretty not bad.
I think Diner Deluxe really
stepped up in Kelowna during thefires when everyone was evacuated.
Yeah, we had some really greatopportunities to do that.
(37:53):
And we tried our best to reallylook after the community.
And, you know, one of ourpartners, Daryl Reuter, he was
huge with that.
He was very involved with the
fire, you know, fire teams andmaking sure that.
those guys were were fed and wellequipped and yeah i mean we
obviously did our best to takecare of everyone you know whether
it be a customer whether you knowdiscounts for customers that were
evacuated or free food to alsobring in things to the front line
like yeah that was a that was agreat community again you know
like it's interesting how nottragic things but you know bad
(38:14):
things can happen like covid likea huge fire just the camaraderie
and community and again that's oneof those things i would put at the
top of the list of why i lovecolonna outside of the weather and
just how beautiful it is likeThere is a pretty amazing
community.
I built so many great
relationships in my time there,and I wasn't even a full -time
member of the community.
So, yeah, no, I definitely feel
the community vibes of that cityand just wish there maybe were
(38:36):
more opportunities for people tospread the...
Spread the joy and generosity.
I love it, love it, Casey.
It's been awesome talking a littlebit of a different perspective for
our show.
We talked about, obviously,
everybody in real estate, ourrestaurateur, entrepreneur on to
kind of show us that side.
Super eye opening.
It's kind of sad what's happenedlately.
And hopefully we can get this chipturned around.
Yeah.
Again, I only can speak from my
own experience.
And, you know, it's been a rough
(38:57):
couple of years and we've done ourbest to make it through.
And hopefully the other twoconcepts can make it through.
Yeah.
Well, Blue Jay game is on in about
an hour and a half.
So pretty not bad.
Yeah.
Maybe I'll head down and watch it
there.
Well, you ask for Jack, tell him
Casey sent you, and I'm surethere'll be a butter bud light on
me.
Awesome.
Okay.
Well, thanks again for coming on,
man.
(39:18):
I'm looking forward to having you
back.
Pleasure.
Nice officially meeting you both.
Have a great day, guys.
Thank you.
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