June 26, 2023 • 57 mins
In this episode we hear stories of discrimination and struggles with bias that girls, and young women had to overcome, to gain an education.
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This podcast is only made possible thanks to the work of the Keystrokes Oral History Project, find out more at www.storycollective.nz/background
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Soundtrack with permission and thanks from The Boston Typewriter Orchestra, find their music on bandcamp.com
© Copyright 2017 Meg Melvin as StorycollectiveNZ
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Storycollective, untold stories by unheard voices. [Sound of typewriters clacking]
Keystrokes per Minute, a limited series podcast about the women in the New Zealand Public Service Typing Pools
from 1945 til the present day. [Typewriter carriage return sound]
Haere mai, welcome to Episode 2, The Role of Education, Part 2. In this episode the researchers hear from interviewees
(00:23):
about the perception from parents, teachers and principals that typing and shorthand, were subjects
better suited to less academic girls. For some this corralling into the Commercial classes
worked out well, as they went on into the workforce and thoroughly enjoyed their craft.
But for others it meant a lifelong sorrow at losing the opportunity to reach their academic potential.
One interviewee, Yvonne, makes a great point about what was different for her generation, in the 1970s,
(00:50):
and how education leaders, reflected by wider society, viewed young women's potential.
{Yvonne} And you know, I think girls were just 'Your a typist' or, you know,
if you had a bit more brains, you'd probably be a nurse. {Judith} or a teacher. {Yvonne} Or a teacher, yeah. And that was it for a girl.
{Presenter} Presented here are some of the stories of discrimination and struggles
(01:12):
with bias that girls, and young women, had to overcome to gain an education.
With perseverance, some women managed to return to study in later years, often whilst juggling
family responsibilities, and other jobs. [Sound of typewriters clacking]
{Presenter} Robin attended secondary school in the mid-80s, and although there was a greater range of subjects available
(01:34):
in this era, Robin was encouraged to take typing instead of a language.
Here she starts by talking about which subjects she preferred, and a note for listeners,
you will hear Robin's cat participating throughout this clip. [Typewriter carriage return]
{Robin} And, uhm, loved history as well. So, we ended up doing, ended up doing history, and then I did Biology
(01:56):
because I I like the thought of doing Biology but wasn't very good at it. [Laughter]
And typing. When I when I went to high school I went into the typing class
and there was a bit of a bit of a story around actually, how that subject got chosen
because I didn't realise until about my second year into high school that people, or girls,
(02:22):
because I went to an all-girls school, who took typing, were considered not to be intelligent.
I wanted to take a language, so I wanted to do German or French, Latin or Māori,
which was being offered. And my mother was told that I would be better off doing typing.
Didn't take me long to work out though, that if you were taking typing, you were considered
(02:46):
to be in the lower educational brightness.
If you want to call it, which kind of... kind of, kind of disturbed me in a way.
Because I thought I was a reasonably intelligent person,
and to be told that I wasn't intelligent enough to take a subject, and I'll be better off taking typing,
(03:07):
That's, that's...a bit disappointed with that.
{Eth} So, did you do shorthand as well? {Robin} No shorthand wasn't offered at our school,
I think, think then if you need it, if you want to do shorthand you go to Polytech.
But anyway, I ended up taking typing and absolutely loved it.
(03:29):
Loved typing. I fell, I literally fell in love with typewriter. [Sound of typewriters clacking]
{Presenter} Yvonne found that she had an aptitude for typing but struggled with learning shorthand
at secondary school in the 1970s. Whilst attending Polytech it was recommended she learn audio typing
which is also known as dictaphone typing, as this was steadily taking over from shorthand in the workplace. [Typewriter carriage return sound]
(03:55):
{Yvonne} And so my high school years were spent at Dannevirke High School,
and I always wanted to be a librarian, I loved reading,
and I think that was the only reason I wanted to be a librarian, was because I loved reading.
I thought I could do that as a job, that would be great. But my English wasn't so great.
Like even though I love reading my English wasn't so good. But then worked out I enjoy typing.
(04:20):
So we did typing I think in fourth form and got really good marks and could do it quite fast.
And the teacher said, 'Ah this is possibly a job path for you, to be a typist, and you know
you've got the academic brains to be a typist'.
So she told me or something like that, and I went 'Ooh Okay, yep.'
And learnt on a manual typewriter, with the cover over and being smacked on the hand,
(04:46):
when you cheated and looked underneath the keyboard. So there I became a very good touch typist.
And I think, I did my Pitman's and all those typing exams that you did.
Then, I did School C(ertificate), so I end up getting School C in what was then Commercial practice.
I did learn shorthand, but wasn't so great at Shorthand because I wasn't good at spelling, for some reason.
(05:08):
So did shorthand but did really well in typing and geography, for some weird reason,
and just missed out on English. I haven't got 49 on English,
so just could not get over that 50, which was very frustrating.
And so, we then looked at well what I could do next and any, {Eth} What years were you at secondary school, and how long?
(05:31):
So I only got to fifth form. So it was probably, so (19)74 to 76 would have been high school.
We looked at, where were the typing schools, not typing schools but
I think the Palmerston North, Polytechnic institutes, the Palmerston North Technical Institute.
. So, we enrolled into that and go we because Mum and Dad did everything with me.
(05:56):
Like I wasn't as if you did it by yourself. So enrolled in that in ended up doing,
So what was it called? Audio typing, so my shorthand wasn't great.
So they said don't do shorthand, go into audio typing, that's the next big thing in offices.
Audio typing, so I did that, and did very well in that,
(06:17):
and thoroughly enjoyed my one-year at Palmerston North Polytech,
and I did subjects like again, commercial practice, business studies, English again,
and lots of typing. Lots and lots of typing, but learning it from an admin,
so you do business letters and learning how to do the letters.
So I decided to resit typing again as School C because I got better marks.
(06:43):
And ended up getting like a 'B' something for that in typing,
and did TCB 1 and 2. So I did those and got really good marks in those,
I had really good qualifications to move into an office. [Sound of typewriters clacking]
{Presenter} Alison took commercial practice subjects, whilst at high school, achieving her TCB or trade certification
(07:07):
board qualifications, before attending Polytech, which she did a Secretarial Diploma. [Typewriter carriage return sound]
{Alison} ..and then going on to Pukekohe High, where I went through to Form 6,
which is Year 12 nowadays, and then I actually went to Manukau Tech, at the Otara campus,
then and did a Secretarial Diploma.
(07:30):
{Judith} Go back, just go back a few steps to school. What subjects did you take at school?
{Alison} Oh, at secondary school, I took English because we had to, Maths,
Science, until I could drop it because I hated it, typing and shorthand.
{Judith} And why did you take the commercial classes? {Alison| I actually really...
(07:54):
all I wanted to do was work in an office. I really enjoyed the typing and shorthand.
By Fifth form, we could pick which subjects we wanted to do.
And that's when I focused more on the typing and shorthand.
I do typing all the way through... {Judith} School Cert? {Alison} Yep, got School Cert, and TCB.
(08:15):
{Judith} Oh you sat that at school?
{Alison} Yes, I've got TCB A, B and C, and 1 and 2 for shorthand. [Typewriter ding sound]
{Presenter} Alison talks to Judith about the type of shorthand she learned, which is a good reminder to let listeners know
they can see examples of the different methods of shorthand, by following the links in the show notes,
(08:38):
or visiting our website www.storycollective.nz. [Typewriter carriage return sound]
{Alison} So we did Teeline shorthand which was relatively new... {Judith} Pitman's was the first, wasn't it?
{Alison| Yeah, I didn't learn Pitmans, we learned Teeline that was just new in our school.
at the time. So I took that for a year I think, I think I only took it for my Sixth Form year.
(09:01):
If I remember rightly. {Judith} Did you enjoy it?
{Alison} I loved it, absolutely loved it. And then when I went on to Tech to do my Secretarial Diploma,
Teeline was the was the system that was part of my course.
And because I'd already learned it at school, they couldn't really teach me anything else.
(09:22):
There was me and another girl, and they couldn't teach us anything else. So we ended up tutoring
the ones that were struggling with it because there wasn't anything else they could teach us apart from...
{Judith} You were already proficient? {Alison} Yeah. {Judith} What sort of speed would you had?
{Alison} Oh, I got top speed in my year, 120. I've got certificates for 120 words per minute. {Judith} Crikey.
{Alison} Can't do it now. {Judith} That's very, very good. {Alison} Mmmm. [Sound of typewriters clacking]
(09:46):
{Presenter} Valerie was born into a large farming, family in rural Southland. She explains how this geography had an impact
on her choice of subjects at secondary school. [Typewriter carriage return sound]
{Valerie} I was born in Winton, in Southland, I'm the oldest of eight children, but we were very, very spread out.
So probably only five of us actually lived together at the same time.
(10:07):
My youngest brother and sister are 20 and 21 years younger than me.
So it was a very spread out family. My father was quite ambitious.
He had a very small farm in Southland, but he kept shifting around
so that he had enough money in the end to buy a bigger farm.
(10:30):
So, I actually went to seven schools, which I don't think was the best thing really.
I went to five primary schools and then I went to intermediate for two years in Invercargill.
And then I went to the Southland Technical College.
I would have preferred to go to the Girls High School,
(10:51):
which dealt with more academic and professional subjects.
But because I had to catch a passenger bus into town every day,
it meant that I missed the first period of school. And if I had gone to the Girls High School,
I would have missed even more school because it was further away.
(11:12):
The Technical College didn't have a very wide range of subjects.
It had a Domestic course - Cooking, Economics, that type of thing,
running a house, and it had a Commercial course which is what I went to.
And so we had the usual core subjects, plus, shorthand and typing.
(11:35):
I did quite well with the shorthand, I wasn't so good with the typing
because I didn't have a typewriter at home. It would have been unusual to do so.
And because I often miss the typing period, through missing the first period at school.
So I did go on and sit School Certificate, which was a wee bit unusual at that school,
(11:58):
you had to pass, completely pass 4 subjects,
and I think most people sat 5, so that they would have a fail subject as it were.
So I passed three, but shorthand and typing were divided, and each of them was half a subject,
(12:21):
Though I passed the shorthand, but I didn't pass the typing.
That whole subject was failed, so I didn't get School Certificate.
which I felt was quite unfair, really.
Anyway, it wasn't hard to get jobs then, and one day at school, somebody announced
there are three jobs going, in different government offices, for 3 shorthand typists.
(12:44):
Does anyone want to go? So, two of my friends and I said, 'Yes, we'll go'.
So we walked down the street together and we stood on the corner and said, 'Well, which ones will we go to?'
We divided up and I went to the State Insurance. I had an interview there
and I did get the job. [Sound of typewriters clacking]
(13:07):
{Presenter} Sandra did well in shorthand and typing, at high school in the late 1970s and early 80's,
obtaining TCB qualifications before leaving school at age 17. By this era
it had become common for young women to have at least 3 to 4 years of secondary education.
Unlike the 1960s cohort who often left after just two years. [Typewriter carriage return sound]
(13:29):
{Sandra} Okay, so when I hit secondary school, my interests were in the secretarial type subjects,
I don't really know why, I guess I had an interest in learning, how to type,
and you know, how do I do shorthand? And I could see that those are things that would help me
if I was looking to get employment. Because at that time, there were a lot of jobs
(13:51):
out there for shorthand typists and the like, so yeah.
{Eth} So what year were you born? {Sandra} I was born 1965... yeah, so that would have been like
... as it the late 70's, early 80's roughly, when I was at high school.
Yeah, and I did, and I was one of those people that did really well on those subjects.
(14:14):
I was generally in the top three for any of the sort of shorthand or typing.
you know, the old TCB exams that they used to have, so I was generally always
kind of top three, and in the... year.
We had a really good shorthand and typing teacher, she was an Irish lady,
(14:35):
Yeah, and she was, she was really good. So I think that made a difference as well.
If, if you had a good teacher and you enjoyed being in their class. My Stepdad was a drover,
but when you talk about parental support, he was always supportive,
but he always wanted, you know, me to make sure I had really good grades in English,
(14:56):
and I always just scraped through. So that was always, you know, like when you talk about your mother,
that was always my little thing, you know, I always felt like I didn't ever quite,
wasn't ever quite good enough. Because, you know, I was only ever just sort of...
I'd either just miss out, which I did the first time around with English, School C English
I think I got, like, 47%. And so I still went on to the Sixth Form year and I think I did it in the Sixth Form year.
(15:23):
I managed to get into the Sixth Form by the score, that I had total score, but I had
what I did with the English was, they just decided that because I was so close, the recommendation,
was that I just carry on and do Sixth Form English. I did UE English and got, and passed.
{Eth} Good. {Sandra} I think I got a lot of 54 percent or something, it was, you know? But it was a pass.
(15:45):
{Eth} So you had 4 years at secondary school? {Sandra} Yeah, 4 years.
So I was about 17 when I left Wairoa College.
{Eth} And what exams did you, had you actually passed? You talked about TCB, and School Cert and Sixth Form.
{Sandra} Yeah, and UE (University Entrance) and I think it was in two subjects I think, English and one other.
(16:07):
Forgot what the other one was. And then I decided that I wanted to come to Gisborne
and do a Secretarial course here, at what was the the Tairawhiti Polytechnic... then.
So I signed up for the Secretarial course, I can't remember how many weeks it was,
but it was a big chunk of the year. And I managed to get board with a family here is Gisborne.
So before I did that, I went and worked at the Social Welfare. I had a holiday job there.
(16:33):
In the social welfare, just doing sort of shorthand typing. So that was over the holiday period
before I actually started at the Polytechnic. So that was really good too. [Sound of typewriters clacking]
{Presenter} Maureen tells us about her early years, living on the family farm, before she joined the
New Zealand Air Force straight after High School. Something she'd wanted to do since she was 7 years old. [Typewriter carriage return sound]
(16:58):
{Maureen} I was born on the 16th June 1941 in Te Puke.
Initially, brought up in Manututu Road, which was halfway between Te Puke and Rotorua.
So bit out in the wop wops, then we shifted down to Pukehina,
(17:19):
where Dad broke in, it was all marshland and Dad broke in the land,
and they grew acres, and acres of peas. And set up a small pea factory,
frozen food, pea factory. Uhm and I left high school in second-year fifth,
(17:41):
because I wanted to get my shorthand typing qualifications.
Left school and I joined the Air Force, which I wanted to do since I was about seven.
{Eth} And so when you got to secondary school, did you have a choice of what topics you would study?
{Maureen} That's a bit of a hard question. I took up shorthand typing.
(18:07):
Now, I can't recall whether we were more or less told what we were going to do.
Which I think was probably the case in those days, because you had the secretarial side of life,
and then you had the General, which was what one of my sisters did,
that was more for the brainer people.
(18:30):
{Eth} I've heard that comment made so often, and that starts you're thinking right from that stage,
that you're not quite bright enough to do the other.
{Maureen} Yes. {Eth} And you do shorthand. {Maureen) Or I did, I don't now.
{Eth} But you learned it. {Maureen} Oh, I learned it. {Eth} It's another language.
{Maureen} Well even typing is another skill, isn't it? {Eth} Absolutely.
(18:55):
So you did, you did your secondary schooling, you did shorthand, you did typing,
do you have any memory of what other subjects you took?
{Maureen} English, Social Studies, that's what it was, Geography.
{Eth} And so you... did you do School Certificate?
(19:16):
{Maureen} No, all I wanted to do, was because I wanted to join the Air Force,
I needed some shorthand typing qualifications, and so I concentrated on
all those ones that I could get. Starting off from Junior, Intermediate
into Senior level. So that I could join the Air Force.
(19:41):
{Eth} So we were you doing Public Sector typing exams?
{Maureen} Yes I did Pitman's and I also did Public Service later on.
Whilst I was in the workforce. {Eth} Right. So, you had this big desire to join the Air Force,
which is all about flying.
But the thing you as a woman needed, or a girl needed, was shorthand and typing. [Laughter]
(20:07):
{Maureen} Yes, and not much flying for a few years.
{Eth} So what age were you when you went into the Airforce?
{Maureen} You couldn't go in before you were 18, and I was so excited
because they let me join the week before I was 18. [Sound of typewriters clacking]
{Presenter} Attending secondary in the mid-1960s, Jill achieved her school certificate, but was unable to take typing and shorthand
(20:34):
in the next year for University Entrance, as those subjects were not offered at that level.
Later in her career Jill retrained and was able to obtain further professional qualifications.
And whilst working as a medical typist, she undertook a very difficult medical terminology exam. [Typewriter carriage return sound]
{Eth} So you went into the Commercial, in the fourth form?
(20:56):
{Jill] Yeah. {Eth} And you were doing the same subjects but at a higher level?
{Jill} Yeah, yes, and we did Geography and Biology as well.
And sat School Cert, got School Cert, and the next year it wasn't a subject for University Entrance.
So I just stayed the extra year and carried on.
(21:17):
{Eth} So you would have been about 16, 17? {Jill} 17, I was 17 when I left school.
{Eth} So you've mentioned that you had your Public Sector exams,
when you sat your School Certificate, and in that extra year, when you couldn't do UE,
can you tell me what exams you did during that time? {Jill} I did Public Service exams.
(21:38):
I did Pitmans exams, I did TCB in 1985 because when I sat them first, like '67
they were called Public Service, Junior, intermediate, Senior.
And then, when I sat, I re-sat the Senior one in 1985
and sat the Advanced and that's when I came top in New Zealand for shorthand.
(22:02):
{Eth} It's pretty awesome, isn't it?
{Jill} Yeah, it was. {Eth} Really big deal! {Jill} It was, yeah, I retrained
after I had my children. {Eth} Okay, so then that makes that clear.
So you had this set, and then you had a new set. {Jill} I did Chamber of Commerce handwriting,
English, Commerce, Bookkeeping, yeah so we did Pitmans exams
(22:25):
and we did the Public Service exams. {Eth} Excellent. So, while they think of it as being 'just a typist',
there's actually a whole lot of training, and skill, and achievement just to get there.
{Jill} Because with shorthand typing, it's not just typing, it's English and Maths.
(22:47):
I wish I'd brought those papers with me, the exam papers because it shows you
the maths aspect, and the confused manuscripts.
{Eth} And when you retrained you got, you mentioned that you then were
getting TCB, rather than the... {Jill} Yes it years, it wasn't the Public Service exams,
(23:08):
It was TCBs, so I wanted to resit the Senior Public Service exam
to see if I could still do it. And I thought, well, I'll have a go at the Advanced one as well.
And tutors said, well you're a bit silly doing both.
Well, I'm quite a stubborn person, so I thought I'll show you!
(23:30):
So I did both and I passed both. Yeah, I did medical, a years-long medical terminology
and then sat the exam, and I got 399 out of 400.
And I was so annoyed with that one question I got wrong.
{Eth} When you're that close, you would be, but that's absolutely awesome!
(23:53):
{Jill} And yeah, when I was with the Ministry of Education, I did a Diploma in Editing and Proofreading. [Sound of typewriters clacking]
{Presenter} Born into a farming family near Gisborne, Sheree preferred to take
the more practical Commercial course at high school. [Typewriter carriage return sound]
{Sheree} I was born into farming family and we lived 15 minutes from Gisborne, and it was mostly
(24:18):
dairy firm with croppings, and sheep. I went to Patutahi School, a little rural country school.
I went to Ilminster Intermediate, from there, I went to Lytton High School.
I took a Commercial course, my brother before me did a professional course, and learnt French,
and there was no way I want to do that. [Laughter]
(24:43):
I wanted to do something a bit more practical, and in hindsight taking Commercial course,
typing etcetera. It's set me up for my future career.
{Eth} Did you have any other influence on the courses that you chose or was it all entirely your choice?
Sometimes Mums and Dads have a desire for you to do something.
(25:07):
{Sheree} They seem to be fine with me doing that. I had 2 years in the Fifth Form,
and 1 in the Sixth and came out with School C(ertificate), and Pitmans typing exam.
{Eth} With your exams, the subjects you did, you did typing, what else? All the way through.
(25:27):
{Sheree} What the called Commercial Practice... its invoicing, making wills, things like that.
English, Geography, Biology, and of course we did cooking and sewing,
as well in those days at high school, Athletics.
{Eth} So can I just check when you did your typing exams, what sort of speeds were you typing at?
(25:49):
{Sheree} It are my gosh, I know in the Fourth Form I was doing 33 words per minute,
but it increased from there, of course, but I have no idea, sorry, what I was doing when I left. [Typewriter ding sound]
I know when I went for an interview, the interview for the job.
(26:14):
The manager, he just wanted to know whether I had School C, and when could I start, and that was it. [Sound of typewriters clacking]
{Presenter} Because Sally missed a lot of school in her childhood, due to her asthma, by the time she got to College,
she thought it would be better to take the General or Domestic classes.
However she was encouraged by her mother, and teachers, to do the Commercial course instead.
(26:39):
Hitting her stride during her Polytech course, Sally achieved good results, coming top of the class. [Typewriter carriage return sound]
{Eth} In the, did you feel any any pressure put on you? It sounds to me like you actually
were free to make your own decisions, as to what you did when you went to secondary school,
but you got some guidance. {Sally} Hmm, free to a point but that in those days
(27:02):
we only had, I mean I think it was three options. We had languages,
or Commercial or General so that those were the three options, and as I said,
I had missed a lot of schooling in my younger years and so possibly should have been held back a year.
(27:23):
But I wasn't. So I knew that the languages were out for me, so it was either the General or the Commercial.
And so...{Eth} So what did General tend to include? Was it cooking and...
{Sally} Yeah, very.. yeah it probably was. Home economics, yep that would have been what it was.
(27:44):
Yeah, I think my older brother and sister had done really well at school.
And so, yeah, I was a bit the dumb bunny, really?
And so, that's why I just thought, oh, I'll just go for the General because
that's what probably, what people expected me. But fortunately, fortunately my mother
(28:05):
and, and teacher, because I was at a private school then, they encouraged me to do the Commercial.
{Eth} And that's really good because that, for you, was a positive encouragement.
{Sally} Yeah, I hadn't even done that well at high school, I did pass
my School C, just. But, going to Polytech, where I was honing those skills.
(28:30):
I ended up coming, from quite a big group actually, in the class,
but I ended up coming first in typing and third in shorthand.
For me, standing up and getting those Awards was just amazing.
{Eth} Isn't that wonderful? Do you feel that had an impact on your confidence? {Sally} Definitely.
{Eth} So how did you get the job, at Māori Affairs?
(28:51):
{Sally} It was probably a bit naughty, but my Dad helped. [Laughter]
{Eth} You would be amazed how much I heard that. 'My mum got me the job, that first job'.
{Sally} My Dad been a, or had been a Probation Officer, and working in the Courts which was over the road
from the Māori Affairs Department and first of all he said 'Why don't you come and work in the Courts?'
(29:13):
I had an experience to go and sit in and I thought 'Oh no, this isn't for me.'
Too much pressure, couldn't handle that. But my Dad had known people
in the Maori Affairs Department and must have been talking to them about me, and when a vacancy came up,
I still had to apply and go through the interview process. But yeah, I think perhaps maybe,
(29:36):
maybe not, but I think perhaps he had a bit of an influence,
{Eth} Opened the door. {Sally} Yep. {Eth} What qualifications did you have?
{Sally} I ended up coming out with Pitmans, so A and B, which I think was typing.
And also first and second shorthand exams. [Sound of typewriters clacking]
(29:59):
{Presenter} Deborah had an unusual pathway to the typing pool,
after missing out on the entrance test for the Army, and a detour through a vocational course.
She eventually ended up in the Inland Revenue Department in 1987. [Typewriter carriage return sound]
{Deborah} I was born in Melbourne, Australia, and we lived there until I was 3. And then we moved to New Zealand.
My Dad's a New Zealander, my Mum's an Aussie, she was born in Brisbane.
(30:22):
My Dad works in the Post Office, worked in the Post Office, it's really a very nomadic life.
12 primary schools. {Judith} 12 primary schools? {Deborah} About 12 primary schools.
{Judith} Really? Around New Zealand? {Deborah} Around New Zealand. I lived at one point up in the Hokianga,
And I was the only white one there. Blonde curls and ringlets, yeah it was a lovely school, immersion in both English and Māori.
(30:45):
So I read about going onto the Marae, and the Māori culture, and things like that.
And we moved to Clevedon, then we moved to Hamilton at one point, due to my education.
That's where I really went into Intermediate School. And I went to Hillcrest High in Hamilton.
And stayed there until end of Sixth Form. {Judith} That's a co-ed school? {Deborah} Yep, it's a co-ed school.
(31:06):
Dad's been married three times, and his second wife, she told me I was going to be a typist.
And I was going to be a Chef, and this is, the these at what I was taking at school,
I was taking home economics and typing and that's.. I had no choice in it.
{Judith} That's really interesting. What would you have done, if you'd had an open choice?
{Deborah} To me, looking at what I've done in my lifetime, I would have probably done something with education.
(31:29):
Because I have an affinity for children. I love children. I used to babysit nine different families until I got married.
But anyway, the darling Stepmother, the day I finished high school and Sixth Form,
she had my name down at the New Zealand Army office. {Judith} Really? What a dominating person.
{Deborah} She was, and I failed the test, so then she spoke to her friend at Social Welfare or whatever it was called way back then.
(31:51):
And she put me into a course called LSV, Limited Volunteer Service with New Zealand Army.
It's for kids with no job skills but I had UE Accounting. {Judith} I was going to say, what did you have a school?
{Deborah} I got my UE, I got my... School Cert, I got English and Maths... {Judith's question unclear}
Maths, English,Typing, Home Economics and Social I think it was.
(32:14):
I tried UE accounting and just missed out.
Anyway I went on this course for kids with no job skills. It's a proper Army immersion.
And cos I could cook, I could sew, and I could type, I could either go into
the squadron's that looked after the clothing, or the cooks, or the clerical side,
(32:37):
and I ended up being in with Sixth Comp which is cooks and drivers, as an office clerk in there.
And I just loved it. {Judith} Really? {Deborah} Yep. I think I was the only female without a kid.
I know I was the only one without a police record. [Laughter] I loved my time,
and if I could have gone back as a civilian, I would have loved it. And my nickname was Left, Right.
(32:58):
Because I would take an extra left, right to catch up to everybody. [Typewriter ding sound]
As I say with the Army thing, she had my name down, again, I passed the test, but I failed the physical,
and I thought, well, no, I need to be what I want to be. And, you know, Dad being the Postmaster,
I worked in the Post Office for a little bit. I always thought that I would somehow get in the Post Office,
there were having redundancies and downsizing at the Post Office, and so then I went to the computer company,
(33:22):
so that was only there for about six months and then I got a job at IRD in 1987 and was there for 20 years. [Sound of typewriters clacking]
{Presenter} Eleanor wanted to be a concert pianist, and so against strong advice, took the Commercial course at college.
A lifelong learner, Eleanor went on to become a shorthand typing teacher in later years,
and eventually did attend University.
(33:45):
{Eleanor} I was a bright child, and I won several essay competitions and things locally,
and liked writing, liked reading. And then I went on to win a big.. uhm...it's an examination,
they used to have for a Scholarship that you got free Catholic Education,
(34:06):
at one of the, any of the big Catholic schools. And when I was told that I could be a nurse,
or a teacher, at 12 years old, I didn't want to be a nurse or a teacher. I was going to be a concert pianist,
and that had nothing to do with my future. So I said, 'Well, I don't want to be a teacher, or a nurse.'
And I put my feet down and said, 'No, I would not take up the Scholarship.'
I then head nearly every inspector in the primary schools or secondary schools,
(34:28):
or somewhere, kept marching up to the school and trying to convince me to go onto a professional education.
But I stuck to my guns and I did shorthand and typing. {Judith} That's fascinating. Why did you decide to do shorthand typing?
{Eleanor} Because that was offered at St. Michael's School. And if I went to, I decided that Sacre-Coeur
was far too expensive for my parents, even though I won the Scholarship. I still would have had to pay
(34:52):
for other things at the school, and I knew enough of the Sacre-Coeur girls to know that my parents income
would not keep up with the likes of Hugh Wright's daughters. And so, I decided that was out of the question,
and I didn't want to go to St. Mary's because my mother said, it would take so much time travelling,
I would have to give up my piano. {Judith} Which you weren't going to do. {Eleanor} I was not going to give up piano.
{Judith} How early did you start learning the play the piano? {Eleanor} 9. {Judith} You were 9? And you had a piano at home presumably?
(35:18):
{Eleanor} Yes, we didn't originally, I learnt at the Convent and I practiced at the Convent.
{Judith} Don't you think that in those days, particularly in the Convents, were fantastic with music?
{Eleanor} They were, well from an education point of view altogether, they were very wide. I've met a lot of Nuns
later in life who were very, very widely educated women really, who broke a lot fresh ground.
(35:40):
And I never saw any of the smacking across the knuckles and things that happened, that everybody says they had.
But I did receive a good education, in a limited way.
Yeah, we didn't do Science and I won first in Auckland in the Arithmetic competition
for the Chamber of Commerce or something. When I was year, what is now Year 9.
(36:01):
In the Third Form, but after that they didn't teach much, teach much Maths at all.
But by that time I was absolutely in love with shorthand. {Judith} And they did have a shorthand teacher?
{Eleanor} They did. {Judith} And a typing teacher? {Eleanore} Just the same person, taught everything.
{Judith} Why did you love shorthand so much? {Eleanor} I think it just appealed to me that it was a challenge.
It was not easy. {Judith's voice over top} It wasn't easy to learn and I very quickly was very good at it.
(36:26):
And eventually was probably the fastest girl in the little group that went through with me,
and I went on eventually to do my 130 words a minute but... and could do 200, I could verbatim.
{Judith} And did your parents agree with your decision, not to take up the Scholarship?
{Eleanor} Not really, but I think I was fairly stroppy. [Laughter] {Judith} Sounds like it.
{Eleanor} And I think they were used to... my Mother said she had to sit on me all my life, so I think she just thought
(36:52):
this was another case of 'We can't keep her down' [Laughter]
{Judith} So you did that for how many years at school? {Eleanor} 3. {Judith} 3 years at school.
{Eleanor} Yes, a lot of girls left school after 2 years in my era, only 2% I think, of girls went to University at that time.
And no we didn't do School Certificate. Again, I dug my toes in,
(37:14):
what was the sense of it, I was much faster than the School Certificate, I was doing 130 by then.
So why do the 80 for School Certificate [Laughter] And also I was up to Grade 8 in Music,
So I really didn't have any time for School Certificate.
{Judith} And you really wanted to play the piano professionally? {Eleanor} [Whispering] I did at that time, yes.
(37:34):
I was going to be a concert pianist. {Judith} And why couldn't you, why didn't you? {Eleanor} I met my husband.
{Judith} Oh well, that's a perfectly good reason. [Laughter] [Typewriter ding sound]
{Eleanor} And I eventually went to University at 55, and I did some before that, I did Economics, Accounting and Law at Polytech
and sort of brought my qualifications up to what was needed for Shorthand Typing Teachers.
(37:57):
And then I went and worked in the Polytech and I taught Economics, and mostly I taught Accounting.
So I've sort of moved away from the typing... part and then eventually they changed the type of shorthand,
and then they dropped short-hand altogether. [Sound of typewriters clacking]
{Presenter} After facing bias and discrimination in her early school years, for being Catholic,
(38:18):
Sadie recounts how religion influenced her choice of secondary school in the mid-1960s. [Typewriter carriage return sound]
{Sadie} While I was at Matamata College, my Mother, who had continued to teach school, developed ovarian cancer,
and that was a pretty gruelling time. My sister had, at this stage, left home as well,
(38:40):
and was working in Morrinsville. So, it was only just my brother,
who was farming, and myself at home.
I therefore left school and was helping him with the farm,
with the work sort of, like, housekeeping things you have to do,
and while my Mum was in the hospital and recuperating. So it was then that she, she and my brother
(39:03):
decided, you know, to sell up the farm really. And thank goodness, we moved to Hamilton.
Yeah, and so we went to Hamilton, I was asked what school I would prefer to go to,
and I chose Sacred Heart because it was an all-girls school,
and also because it was a Catholic school, which I loved St. Joseph's, in Te Aroha,
(39:26):
as my primary school. I did not enjoy Matamata College,
as in the mornings when they had Assembly, all the Catholics had to go out of the Assembly Hall,
and go and sit in some room, while it was over... while it was being carried on,
which is so ridiculous. But you were ostracised, you really were ostracised.
Because you were Catholic. {Eth} Wow. {Sadie} Very much, there was somebody
(39:51):
on a neighbouring farm, who caught the bus in, you would consider it bullying these days
And I was really... she really got her friends and they ostracised me because I was Catholic,
the only Catholics in the district. So I was very pleased to go to Hamilton. {Eth} Yes.
{Sadie} And go to Sacred Heart and ahm... {Eth} What subjects did you do?
(40:13):
{Sadie} Well, fortunately at Matamata College, I did excel in Chemistry and I loved it, and Algebra,
but when I went to Sacred Heart, there weren't the caliber of teachers to teach you that,
and so I did an Academic course, I did French and Biology,
and Geography, and History, all of that, but I really didn't enjoy it.
(40:36):
And so in the College there, I really didn't focus on academic things,
And my... to my Mother's chagrin really, because my two brothers had,
my elder brother was Dux at Matamata College and my other brother had excelled.
And both of them had gone to University, and my mother thought that
(40:59):
I should go too, but there was just a far, far, removed from
what I ever wanted to do. Because I could not imagine myself studying, studying, studying,
poring over books. And so I said no, I don't want to do anything like that.
And she said we have to do something, and my sister had been the same,
(41:20):
so my mother had sent her to the Brains Commercial College and so she went.
You've got to do something, so I sent her there, at least you've got that as a base.
So I went there and I learnt shorthand. {Eth} And what age was that? {Sadie} I was 16.
{Eth} 16 when you went to the College and that was, you'd finished your academic learning,
and this was the beginning, in effect, of your working life? {Sadie} Yes that's right.
(41:43):
So I spent a year, year there, and came out with the Junior exams Shorthand and Typing,
in Public, yeah Public Service? No, it was another one, 463 00:41:58,0488 --> 00:42:03,020 Chamber of Commerce, yeah. And so that sort of stood you in good stead.
Plus the fact that you had been to a Commercial College, stood you in good stead
(42:07):
to...for a job, So I landed in a job at Insurance Brokers, which I absolutely loathed
you know, wasn't even very long, only few months really.
I think I started in January, ended in May and a week later, I was working for the Post Office,
in Hamilton, and that was the start of my Public Service career really.
(42:29):
{Eth} So, when you left school, what had you achieved? Had you achieved School Certificate?
{Sadie} No, I didn't actually, I didn't, once again I went to night school and got it here.
{Eth} Okay. {Sadie} I went and got my School C through night school.
{Eth} And what subjects? {Sadie} English, Shorthand typing, Geography, ah, yeah, and History I think it was.
(42:56):
{Eth} It was pretty common, in the 60s, for people to be going to night school, men and women.
{Sadie} Yeah, I loved it. {Eth} Yeah.
{Sadie} I did a lot of night school training. [Sound of typewriters clacking]
{Presenter} Jan grew up Tirau, before attending boarding school in Auckland. And although she did not take any
(43:18):
Commercial classes during her secondary schooling, she did attend Seddon Memorial Technical Institute afterwards,
where she gained qualifications in typing and shorthand. [Typewriter carriage return sound].
{Eth} When it came to choices of topics, did you have free choice?
{Jan} Look at it as far as I know I did. {Eth} Yep. {Jan} We didn't, I mean there were academic subjects
(43:40):
and I was the middle in the middle. Whereas Tirau School, I was usually in the first, the top three.
At Dio, I was the middle of the middle. And our subjects were streamed according to,
well there were three, there was Latin, Modern and General.
And we didn't take, in the Modern Form, we didn't take Latin, and we didn't take ...yes we did, we took full Maths,
(44:05):
which I dropped. [Laughter] Yes... so that was the only difference is that we didn't do Latin.
{Eth} so you didn't do any commercial subjects? {Jan} No, no.
{Eth} Throughout that time, how did you do at school? You've said, you move from being in the top few to
being in the middle. How did you do in that bigger environment?
{Jan} Uhm, I could hide. [Laughter] {Eth} Yeah, yeah. {Jan} But I was a border of course, and there were day girls
(44:32):
as well, and they were like two separate cohorts, you could say, but we were well mixed, and
and we had some very good teachers. And it was when I went and worked at
Waikato University that I realised what a good education I'd actually had.
{Eth} So you would have sat School Certificate? {Jan} I sat School C, I got it.
(44:54):
And went on into the first year Sixth. They did have accrediting at that time,
I didn't get accredited, I hadn't done well enough in the exams, and I was pretty sure that I hadn't. [Typewriter ding sound]
{Eth} So then, what did you do? You'd finished school.
{Jan} It came upon me and I have no idea it was coming.
(45:14):
I was an absolute 'Oh! Oh what next?!' After leaving school,
well Mum had always wanted me, she hadn't had, she'd only had about two years of schooling,
and she wanted me to be able to work, if necessary, and to have some training.
(45:36):
And uhm now I look back and think I should have done Librarian work.
But however, I did, I went to Seddon Memorial Technical Institute in Auckland,
and did the Secretarial Training, which was very wide based, and very good.
And after about the first six months, I did very well, yes.
(45:56):
So I learned shorthand, and my typing was good, and I won't say it was that accurate,
but it was still, you know, the speed was there, and I got up to about 120, 130 in Pitman's
{Eth} So what exams did you get? And was it a one-year course?
{Jan} It was a one-year course. {Eth} Yep. {Jan} And so there were the Pitman's various speeds.
(46:20):
There was a Chamber of Commerce which you probably would have been... yeah.
And Chamber of Commerce also did bookkeeping, there were the bookkeeping exams.
And, and we had a good teacher and he decided all we were going to have a full set of books.
And so, did well. [Sound of typewriters clacking] However,
(46:42):
{Presenter} Sarah had started her secondary education in the mid-1980s, learning French.
However, her Mum changed her course selection to the Commercial classes
and Sarah quite quickly excelled in shorthand typing. [Typewriter carriage return sound]
{Sarah} So I was born in Auckland, so I was born at Middlemore Hospital, in Otahuhu.
And I went to Papatoetoe High School, which is in South Auckland and we had, I had a teacher
(47:04):
there, Mrs Vangerter, very strict, but very kind and I enjoyed her teaching,
so I excelled in shorthand typing quite quickly. You either had languages, typing or yeah,
it was languages or typing. {Judith} Why were you interested in doing French?
{Sarah} Because my friends did it? [Laughter] {Judith} Always the way. {Sarah} Yeah, so, and that's when Mum
went 'Nah, you're not doing to do that'. So she actually changed my what do you call them? Course selections?
(47:27):
Yeah, and that's what I did.{Judith} What had she done herself? {Sarah} She was a factory worker, yeah, cleaner...
she wasn't happy. {Judith} So she wanted you to do something with typing? {Sarah} That's right, yep, so I did that.
So I got all my, what would you call it, Pitman's papers, yep got on my certificates there.
And then when I left school, I applied... it was actually my grandmother who said apply for a job through the State Services Commission.
So my grandmother, her and I caught a bus into the city because we lived out at Manukau City, which is a bit of a distance,
(47:54):
and we went to this interview, and what they did, is they referred you to jobs that may suit. So I got a call from
the Otahuhu District Courts, and they wanted to be a typist. So I went to that interview and I didn't like that,
because, the lady was taking me through, she wouldn't touch handles, it was quite a dirty place.
It was like, well people going to Court... quite rugged. She wouldn't touch the doors, and said 'You know, you don't have
(48:16):
to go through this much', but it didn't impress me. So they offered me the job and I turned it down.
{Judith} Which is pretty bold for a sixteen-year-old. {Sarah} Yeah, well I was a bit scared too,
my grandmother said turn it down. So she was quite influential, her, my Mum and her.
Quite influential in my job choices, and so then I can't really remember, but then I got the DSW interview.
(48:37):
And it was to work in the typing pool as a Junior Typist at the Manukau DSW Office. [Sound of typewriters clacking]
{Presenter} Rachel's education and prospects were compromised by her poor health earlier in life, but despite
not being able to complete teacher training at University, she went on to enjoy her secretarial career.
{Rachel} I was born in Epsom, and I lived in Epsom until years after I left school.
(49:03):
First of all, I went to Model Country, a small school that was a model of a country school, attached to the Teacher's College.
Then I went to Normal Intermediate, also in the grounds of the Teachers College,
and then I went to St Cuthbert's for five years.
Then I went to the Auckland Technical Institute where took a year's Business course.
(49:24):
And after that, I had a year and a half at Auckland University, which I left through ill health.
{Judith} Why did you decide that you were going to a business area?
{Rachel} Because I'd had hepatitis very severely and my parents thought I might not be able to complete
a University degree. Which in fact I couldn't and I very glad to be trained to do something.
(49:45):
{Judith} And they encouraged you to go to the business college? {Rachel} They did really, they did.
They didn't want somebody who couldn't earn a living on their hands. {Judith} So that's interesting, because quite a lot
of people we've talked to, the need for women to earn a living is actually quite important in the 50s and 60s.
{Rachel} Yes. {Judith} Which probably before the War was less so. The assumption was you just leave school and get married.
(50:08):
{Rachel} Yes I think it might have been in the 50s and 60s too. [Laughter]
{Judith} And tell me about the business college, what you learned there?
{Rachel} It was a comprehensive course, we did English, Bookkeeping, what we call the machines,
but I think it was really adding machines, Shorthand and Typing. {Judith} You did do shorthand?
(50:31):
{Rachel} Oh yes, that was the major thing. {Judith} Which sort of shorthand did you do? {Rachel} Pitman's shorthand.
But now I discovered, that later they used to teach a kind of shorthand that doesn't reach the speed we got too in shorthand.
{Judith} Yes I understand. {Rachel} I don't know why they did that. {Judith} What qualifications did you get there? I
I got the Senior Government exam. {Judith} What is hard? {Rachel} Well, not many of us got it really.
(50:55):
And then, in a couple of years, I realised that typing was going to be my career, so I went for the advanced,
shorthand typing exam, and I got that too. {Judith} And why did you realise that typing was going to be your career?
{Rachel} Because I realised I wasn't going to go to the University and be a teacher.
{Judith} Was that a disappointment? {Rachel} Yes it was, but I had to face the reality of the situation.
(51:19):
And in the end I enjoyed being a Secretary, and particularly as time went on. [Sound of typewriters clacking]
{Presenter} Sally C was inspired by some of her teachers, whose encouragement helped her obtain School certificate.
Later in life, Sally gained a Graduate Diploma whilst raising a family. [Typewriter carriage return sound]
{Sally} I went to Te Puke High School, in the Bay of Plenty. I spent four years at secondary school,
(51:45):
and basically, I failed my first attempt at School Certificate, in those days.
So I went and did a second year and I had, you know, lots of problems really going through school.
Anyway I was really interested in Biology, I like the Sciences and I, you know, loved reading.
(52:09):
I was an avid reader all my life, and I had a really, really good English teacher and I took typing as well.
So those are the three subjects that really stuck out, and I loved Geography.
So those were all of the subjects that I really liked, and basically I was inspired by the teachers
that taught it, taught the subjects. The first year in typing, we just typed and stared at the keys.
(52:37):
In the second year, we got a new typing teacher, her name was Rose and she discovered that none
none of us could copy type. So she made, one weekend, she made bibs for all our typewriters,
and the following morning, Monday, we came and there was a big board, she'd made a keyboard,
(52:58):
a mock keyboard and we had, we had to blind type, basically, and learn to copy type.
And there are lots of dropouts. [Laughter] But I stuck with it, and learned how to copy type.
So she was very influential right through High School for me.
And also later on, we ended up playing netball together in a netball team.
(53:24):
Traveling, doing some traveling around together, and I still keep in touch with her.
My English teacher, I had a really, really cool English teacher, Mr O'Leary,
and he had long hair, and a beard, and smoked a pipe, and wore a headband.
And we thought that was pretty cool. He just explained English the subject in such a way,
(53:46):
that inspired me to write, lots and lots of essays, of different kinds,
in my last year at school. So I left school in the December, and I didn't pass my typing,
but my typing teacher said to me, 'You know, you should have, you should have passed your typing.'
She said, 'You know, this is ridiculous'. I think I got 48, so I rubbed that out, and I put 54 on my results,
(54:14):
and I got 64 for English, and I think I got probably 46 for Science, and about 45 for Geography.
You know, and I thought I really tried really hard but you know, like there was a lot going on in my life. [Typewriter ding sound]
{Rose} So your diploma is the diploma of...? {Sally} in Business studies. {Rose} Right.
(54:38):
{Sally} Yeah, it's an Undergraduate Diploma, but yeah. So I got that and I majored in Tourism.
Which is interesting because it's all generic, but you can actually transfer it to patients in hospitals,
because you've got long stay, short stay, different reasons for, you know, their visits.
(55:04):
Whether they're outpatients, inpatients, and that, and the same applies to uhm tourists.
You can have people coming from overseas, long-term people, domestic tourist,
short-term stays, different reasons for traveling, family and friends.
Whether they're visiting family and friends, or whether they're actually here on holiday themselves for other reasons.
(55:27):
You know, it's all that sort of generic terminology that goes with, yeah.
{Rose} So that was really, you would have gone into Whanganui hospital then?
{Sally} Yeah, I decided I would apply for a job, somewhere. {Rose} And the Diploma helped?
{Sally} Apparently yeah it did. Well I was still studying when I got my first job.
(55:53):
And interestingly that the only help that I got in my last year, with my last paper,
was they, I ended up working in HR but they agreed to pay half my paper if I passed, and I did.
But up until then, it was all self-funded, and I never once attended a course at Massey, 617 00:56:18,048 --> 00:56:26,060 because I had a family. So I did all of my study, and all of my course work, alone at home,
(56:26):
with a bit of help from Errol occasionally.
That was it, I did it all alone, amazing aye? {Rose} Incredible.
{Sally} I wouldn't do it now like that, well, you know. {Rose} It's amazing how, how we're able to do these things?
{Sally} I know. And raise a family. Amazing, and shift towns from Tauranga to... {Rose} Start a new life.
(56:48):
{Sally| Yeah, all that. [Sound of typewriters clacking]
{Presenter} Ngā mihi nui, and thanks to all our interviewees for sharing their stories.
In Episode 3 Life in the Typing Pool, Part 1, we hear about the various ways that typist found their first job,
and what those early days were like. [Typewriter carriage return sound]
The Keystrokes Per Minute Project was made possible by funding support from the Ministry of Culture and Heritage
(57:14):
and the Public Services Commission. Listeners can find out more about the project by visiting website www.storycollective.nz
The soundtrack was kindly provided by permission from the Boston Typewriter Orchestra.
Find their music and merchandise on Bandcamp.com. Thanks for listening. [Typewriter ding sound]
Storycollective, untold stories by unheard voices. [Sound of typewriters clacking]
Keystrokes per Minute, a limited series podcast about the women in the New Zealand Public Service Typing Pools
from 1945 til the present day. [Typewriter carriage return sound]
Haere mai, welcome to Episode 2, The Role of Education, Part 2. In this episode the researchers hear from interviewees
(00:23):
about the perception from parents, teachers and principals that typing and shorthand, were subjects
better suited to less academic girls. For some this corralling into the Commercial classes
worked out well, as they went on into the workforce and thoroughly enjoyed their craft.
But for others it meant a lifelong sorrow at losing the opportunity to reach their academic potential.
One interviewee, Yvonne, makes a great point about what was different for her generation, in the 1970s,
(00:50):
and how education leaders, reflected by wider society, viewed young women's potential.
{Yvonne} And you know, I think girls were just 'Your a typist' or, you know,
if you had a bit more brains, you'd probably be a nurse. {Judith} or a teacher. {Yvonne} Or a teacher, yeah. And that was it for a girl.
{Presenter} Presented here are some of the stories of discrimination and struggles
(01:12):
with bias that girls, and young women, had to overcome to gain an education.
With perseverance, some women managed to return to study in later years, often whilst juggling
family responsibilities, and other jobs. [Sound of typewriters clacking]
{Presenter} Robin attended secondary school in the mid-80s, and although there was a greater range of subjects available
(01:34):
in this era, Robin was encouraged to take typing instead of a language.
Here she starts by talking about which subjects she preferred, and a note for listeners,
you will hear Robin's cat participating throughout this clip. [Typewriter carriage return]
{Robin} And, uhm, loved history as well. So, we ended up doing, ended up doing history, and then I did Biology
(01:56):
because I I like the thought of doing Biology but wasn't very good at it. [Laughter]
And typing. When I when I went to high school I went into the typing class
and there was a bit of a bit of a story around actually, how that subject got chosen
because I didn't realise until about my second year into high school that people, or girls,
(02:22):
because I went to an all-girls school, who took typing, were considered not to be intelligent.
I wanted to take a language, so I wanted to do German or French, Latin or Māori,
which was being offered. And my mother was told that I would be better off doing typing.
Didn't take me long to work out though, that if you were taking typing, you were considered
(02:46):
to be in the lower educational brightness.
If you want to call it, which kind of... kind of, kind of disturbed me in a way.
Because I thought I was a reasonably intelligent person,
and to be told that I wasn't intelligent enough to take a subject, and I'll be better off taking typing,
(03:07):
That's, that's...a bit disappointed with that.
{Eth} So, did you do shorthand as well? {Robin} No shorthand wasn't offered at our school,
I think, think then if you need it, if you want to do shorthand you go to Polytech.
But anyway, I ended up taking typing and absolutely loved it.
(03:29):
Loved typing. I fell, I literally fell in love with typewriter. [Sound of typewriters clacking]
{Presenter} Yvonne found that she had an aptitude for typing but struggled with learning shorthand
at secondary school in the 1970s. Whilst attending Polytech it was recommended she learn audio typing
which is also known as dictaphone typing, as this was steadily taking over from shorthand in the workplace. [Typewriter carriage return sound]
(03:55):
{Yvonne} And so my high school years were spent at Dannevirke High School,
and I always wanted to be a librarian, I loved reading,
and I think that was the only reason I wanted to be a librarian, was because I loved reading.
I thought I could do that as a job, that would be great. But my English wasn't so great.
Like even though I love reading my English wasn't so good. But then worked out I enjoy typing.
(04:20):
So we did typing I think in fourth form and got really good marks and could do it quite fast.
And the teacher said, 'Ah this is possibly a job path for you, to be a typist, and you know
you've got the academic brains to be a typist'.
So she told me or something like that, and I went 'Ooh Okay, yep.'
And learnt on a manual typewriter, with the cover over and being smacked on the hand,
(04:46):
when you cheated and looked underneath the keyboard. So there I became a very good touch typist.
And I think, I did my Pitman's and all those typing exams that you did.
Then, I did School C(ertificate), so I end up getting School C in what was then Commercial practice.
I did learn shorthand, but wasn't so great at Shorthand because I wasn't good at spelling, for some reason.
(05:08):
So did shorthand but did really well in typing and geography, for some weird reason,
and just missed out on English. I haven't got 49 on English,
so just could not get over that 50, which was very frustrating.
And so, we then looked at well what I could do next and any, {Eth} What years were you at secondary school, and how long?
(05:31):
So I only got to fifth form. So it was probably, so (19)74 to 76 would have been high school.
We looked at, where were the typing schools, not typing schools but
I think the Palmerston North, Polytechnic institutes, the Palmerston North Technical Institute.
. So, we enrolled into that and go we because Mum and Dad did everything with me.
(05:56):
Like I wasn't as if you did it by yourself. So enrolled in that in ended up doing,
So what was it called? Audio typing, so my shorthand wasn't great.
So they said don't do shorthand, go into audio typing, that's the next big thing in offices.
Audio typing, so I did that, and did very well in that,
(06:17):
and thoroughly enjoyed my one-year at Palmerston North Polytech,
and I did subjects like again, commercial practice, business studies, English again,
and lots of typing. Lots and lots of typing, but learning it from an admin,
so you do business letters and learning how to do the letters.
So I decided to resit typing again as School C because I got better marks.
(06:43):
And ended up getting like a 'B' something for that in typing,
and did TCB 1 and 2. So I did those and got really good marks in those,
I had really good qualifications to move into an office. [Sound of typewriters clacking]
{Presenter} Alison took commercial practice subjects, whilst at high school, achieving her TCB or trade certification
(07:07):
board qualifications, before attending Polytech, which she did a Secretarial Diploma. [Typewriter carriage return sound]
{Alison} ..and then going on to Pukekohe High, where I went through to Form 6,
which is Year 12 nowadays, and then I actually went to Manukau Tech, at the Otara campus,
then and did a Secretarial Diploma.
(07:30):
{Judith} Go back, just go back a few steps to school. What subjects did you take at school?
{Alison} Oh, at secondary school, I took English because we had to, Maths,
Science, until I could drop it because I hated it, typing and shorthand.
{Judith} And why did you take the commercial classes? {Alison| I actually really...
(07:54):
all I wanted to do was work in an office. I really enjoyed the typing and shorthand.
By Fifth form, we could pick which subjects we wanted to do.
And that's when I focused more on the typing and shorthand.
I do typing all the way through... {Judith} School Cert? {Alison} Yep, got School Cert, and TCB.
(08:15):
{Judith} Oh you sat that at school?
{Alison} Yes, I've got TCB A, B and C, and 1 and 2 for shorthand. [Typewriter ding sound]
{Presenter} Alison talks to Judith about the type of shorthand she learned, which is a good reminder to let listeners know
they can see examples of the different methods of shorthand, by following the links in the show notes,
(08:38):
or visiting our website www.storycollective.nz. [Typewriter carriage return sound]
{Alison} So we did Teeline shorthand which was relatively new... {Judith} Pitman's was the first, wasn't it?
{Alison| Yeah, I didn't learn Pitmans, we learned Teeline that was just new in our school.
at the time. So I took that for a year I think, I think I only took it for my Sixth Form year.
(09:01):
If I remember rightly. {Judith} Did you enjoy it?
{Alison} I loved it, absolutely loved it. And then when I went on to Tech to do my Secretarial Diploma,
Teeline was the was the system that was part of my course.
And because I'd already learned it at school, they couldn't really teach me anything else.
(09:22):
There was me and another girl, and they couldn't teach us anything else. So we ended up tutoring
the ones that were struggling with it because there wasn't anything else they could teach us apart from...
{Judith} You were already proficient? {Alison} Yeah. {Judith} What sort of speed would you had?
{Alison} Oh, I got top speed in my year, 120. I've got certificates for 120 words per minute. {Judith} Crikey.
{Alison} Can't do it now. {Judith} That's very, very good. {Alison} Mmmm. [Sound of typewriters clacking]
(09:46):
{Presenter} Valerie was born into a large farming, family in rural Southland. She explains how this geography had an impact
on her choice of subjects at secondary school. [Typewriter carriage return sound]
{Valerie} I was born in Winton, in Southland, I'm the oldest of eight children, but we were very, very spread out.
So probably only five of us actually lived together at the same time.
(10:07):
My youngest brother and sister are 20 and 21 years younger than me.
So it was a very spread out family. My father was quite ambitious.
He had a very small farm in Southland, but he kept shifting around
so that he had enough money in the end to buy a bigger farm.
(10:30):
So, I actually went to seven schools, which I don't think was the best thing really.
I went to five primary schools and then I went to intermediate for two years in Invercargill.
And then I went to the Southland Technical College.
I would have preferred to go to the Girls High School,
(10:51):
which dealt with more academic and professional subjects.
But because I had to catch a passenger bus into town every day,
it meant that I missed the first period of school. And if I had gone to the Girls High School,
I would have missed even more school because it was further away.
(11:12):
The Technical College didn't have a very wide range of subjects.
It had a Domestic course - Cooking, Economics, that type of thing,
running a house, and it had a Commercial course which is what I went to.
And so we had the usual core subjects, plus, shorthand and typing.
(11:35):
I did quite well with the shorthand, I wasn't so good with the typing
because I didn't have a typewriter at home. It would have been unusual to do so.
And because I often miss the typing period, through missing the first period at school.
So I did go on and sit School Certificate, which was a wee bit unusual at that school,
(11:58):
you had to pass, completely pass 4 subjects,
and I think most people sat 5, so that they would have a fail subject as it were.
So I passed three, but shorthand and typing were divided, and each of them was half a subject,
(12:21):
Though I passed the shorthand, but I didn't pass the typing.
That whole subject was failed, so I didn't get School Certificate.
which I felt was quite unfair, really.
Anyway, it wasn't hard to get jobs then, and one day at school, somebody announced
there are three jobs going, in different government offices, for 3 shorthand typists.
(12:44):
Does anyone want to go? So, two of my friends and I said, 'Yes, we'll go'.
So we walked down the street together and we stood on the corner and said, 'Well, which ones will we go to?'
We divided up and I went to the State Insurance. I had an interview there
and I did get the job. [Sound of typewriters clacking]
(13:07):
{Presenter} Sandra did well in shorthand and typing, at high school in the late 1970s and early 80's,
obtaining TCB qualifications before leaving school at age 17. By this era
it had become common for young women to have at least 3 to 4 years of secondary education.
Unlike the 1960s cohort who often left after just two years. [Typewriter carriage return sound]
(13:29):
{Sandra} Okay, so when I hit secondary school, my interests were in the secretarial type subjects,
I don't really know why, I guess I had an interest in learning, how to type,
and you know, how do I do shorthand? And I could see that those are things that would help me
if I was looking to get employment. Because at that time, there were a lot of jobs
(13:51):
out there for shorthand typists and the like, so yeah.
{Eth} So what year were you born? {Sandra} I was born 1965... yeah, so that would have been like
... as it the late 70's, early 80's roughly, when I was at high school.
Yeah, and I did, and I was one of those people that did really well on those subjects.
(14:14):
I was generally in the top three for any of the sort of shorthand or typing.
you know, the old TCB exams that they used to have, so I was generally always
kind of top three, and in the... year.
We had a really good shorthand and typing teacher, she was an Irish lady,
(14:35):
Yeah, and she was, she was really good. So I think that made a difference as well.
If, if you had a good teacher and you enjoyed being in their class. My Stepdad was a drover,
but when you talk about parental support, he was always supportive,
but he always wanted, you know, me to make sure I had really good grades in English,
(14:56):
and I always just scraped through. So that was always, you know, like when you talk about your mother,
that was always my little thing, you know, I always felt like I didn't ever quite,
wasn't ever quite good enough. Because, you know, I was only ever just sort of...
I'd either just miss out, which I did the first time around with English, School C English
I think I got, like, 47%. And so I still went on to the Sixth Form year and I think I did it in the Sixth Form year.
(15:23):
I managed to get into the Sixth Form by the score, that I had total score, but I had
what I did with the English was, they just decided that because I was so close, the recommendation,
was that I just carry on and do Sixth Form English. I did UE English and got, and passed.
{Eth} Good. {Sandra} I think I got a lot of 54 percent or something, it was, you know? But it was a pass.
(15:45):
{Eth} So you had 4 years at secondary school? {Sandra} Yeah, 4 years.
So I was about 17 when I left Wairoa College.
{Eth} And what exams did you, had you actually passed? You talked about TCB, and School Cert and Sixth Form.
{Sandra} Yeah, and UE (University Entrance) and I think it was in two subjects I think, English and one other.
(16:07):
Forgot what the other one was. And then I decided that I wanted to come to Gisborne
and do a Secretarial course here, at what was the the Tairawhiti Polytechnic... then.
So I signed up for the Secretarial course, I can't remember how many weeks it was,
but it was a big chunk of the year. And I managed to get board with a family here is Gisborne.
So before I did that, I went and worked at the Social Welfare. I had a holiday job there.
(16:33):
In the social welfare, just doing sort of shorthand typing. So that was over the holiday period
before I actually started at the Polytechnic. So that was really good too. [Sound of typewriters clacking]
{Presenter} Maureen tells us about her early years, living on the family farm, before she joined the
New Zealand Air Force straight after High School. Something she'd wanted to do since she was 7 years old. [Typewriter carriage return sound]
(16:58):
{Maureen} I was born on the 16th June 1941 in Te Puke.
Initially, brought up in Manututu Road, which was halfway between Te Puke and Rotorua.
So bit out in the wop wops, then we shifted down to Pukehina,
(17:19):
where Dad broke in, it was all marshland and Dad broke in the land,
and they grew acres, and acres of peas. And set up a small pea factory,
frozen food, pea factory. Uhm and I left high school in second-year fifth,
(17:41):
because I wanted to get my shorthand typing qualifications.
Left school and I joined the Air Force, which I wanted to do since I was about seven.
{Eth} And so when you got to secondary school, did you have a choice of what topics you would study?
{Maureen} That's a bit of a hard question. I took up shorthand typing.
(18:07):
Now, I can't recall whether we were more or less told what we were going to do.
Which I think was probably the case in those days, because you had the secretarial side of life,
and then you had the General, which was what one of my sisters did,
that was more for the brainer people.
(18:30):
{Eth} I've heard that comment made so often, and that starts you're thinking right from that stage,
that you're not quite bright enough to do the other.
{Maureen} Yes. {Eth} And you do shorthand. {Maureen) Or I did, I don't now.
{Eth} But you learned it. {Maureen} Oh, I learned it. {Eth} It's another language.
{Maureen} Well even typing is another skill, isn't it? {Eth} Absolutely.
(18:55):
So you did, you did your secondary schooling, you did shorthand, you did typing,
do you have any memory of what other subjects you took?
{Maureen} English, Social Studies, that's what it was, Geography.
{Eth} And so you... did you do School Certificate?
(19:16):
{Maureen} No, all I wanted to do, was because I wanted to join the Air Force,
I needed some shorthand typing qualifications, and so I concentrated on
all those ones that I could get. Starting off from Junior, Intermediate
into Senior level. So that I could join the Air Force.
(19:41):
{Eth} So we were you doing Public Sector typing exams?
{Maureen} Yes I did Pitman's and I also did Public Service later on.
Whilst I was in the workforce. {Eth} Right. So, you had this big desire to join the Air Force,
which is all about flying.
But the thing you as a woman needed, or a girl needed, was shorthand and typing. [Laughter]
(20:07):
{Maureen} Yes, and not much flying for a few years.
{Eth} So what age were you when you went into the Airforce?
{Maureen} You couldn't go in before you were 18, and I was so excited
because they let me join the week before I was 18. [Sound of typewriters clacking]
{Presenter} Attending secondary in the mid-1960s, Jill achieved her school certificate, but was unable to take typing and shorthand
(20:34):
in the next year for University Entrance, as those subjects were not offered at that level.
Later in her career Jill retrained and was able to obtain further professional qualifications.
And whilst working as a medical typist, she undertook a very difficult medical terminology exam. [Typewriter carriage return sound]
{Eth} So you went into the Commercial, in the fourth form?
(20:56):
{Jill] Yeah. {Eth} And you were doing the same subjects but at a higher level?
{Jill} Yeah, yes, and we did Geography and Biology as well.
And sat School Cert, got School Cert, and the next year it wasn't a subject for University Entrance.
So I just stayed the extra year and carried on.
(21:17):
{Eth} So you would have been about 16, 17? {Jill} 17, I was 17 when I left school.
{Eth} So you've mentioned that you had your Public Sector exams,
when you sat your School Certificate, and in that extra year, when you couldn't do UE,
can you tell me what exams you did during that time? {Jill} I did Public Service exams.
(21:38):
I did Pitmans exams, I did TCB in 1985 because when I sat them first, like '67
they were called Public Service, Junior, intermediate, Senior.
And then, when I sat, I re-sat the Senior one in 1985
and sat the Advanced and that's when I came top in New Zealand for shorthand.
(22:02):
{Eth} It's pretty awesome, isn't it?
{Jill} Yeah, it was. {Eth} Really big deal! {Jill} It was, yeah, I retrained
after I had my children. {Eth} Okay, so then that makes that clear.
So you had this set, and then you had a new set. {Jill} I did Chamber of Commerce handwriting,
English, Commerce, Bookkeeping, yeah so we did Pitmans exams
(22:25):
and we did the Public Service exams. {Eth} Excellent. So, while they think of it as being 'just a typist',
there's actually a whole lot of training, and skill, and achievement just to get there.
{Jill} Because with shorthand typing, it's not just typing, it's English and Maths.
(22:47):
I wish I'd brought those papers with me, the exam papers because it shows you
the maths aspect, and the confused manuscripts.
{Eth} And when you retrained you got, you mentioned that you then were
getting TCB, rather than the... {Jill} Yes it years, it wasn't the Public Service exams,
(23:08):
It was TCBs, so I wanted to resit the Senior Public Service exam
to see if I could still do it. And I thought, well, I'll have a go at the Advanced one as well.
And tutors said, well you're a bit silly doing both.
Well, I'm quite a stubborn person, so I thought I'll show you!
(23:30):
So I did both and I passed both. Yeah, I did medical, a years-long medical terminology
and then sat the exam, and I got 399 out of 400.
And I was so annoyed with that one question I got wrong.
{Eth} When you're that close, you would be, but that's absolutely awesome!
(23:53):
{Jill} And yeah, when I was with the Ministry of Education, I did a Diploma in Editing and Proofreading. [Sound of typewriters clacking]
{Presenter} Born into a farming family near Gisborne, Sheree preferred to take
the more practical Commercial course at high school. [Typewriter carriage return sound]
{Sheree} I was born into farming family and we lived 15 minutes from Gisborne, and it was mostly
(24:18):
dairy firm with croppings, and sheep. I went to Patutahi School, a little rural country school.
I went to Ilminster Intermediate, from there, I went to Lytton High School.
I took a Commercial course, my brother before me did a professional course, and learnt French,
and there was no way I want to do that. [Laughter]
(24:43):
I wanted to do something a bit more practical, and in hindsight taking Commercial course,
typing etcetera. It's set me up for my future career.
{Eth} Did you have any other influence on the courses that you chose or was it all entirely your choice?
Sometimes Mums and Dads have a desire for you to do something.
(25:07):
{Sheree} They seem to be fine with me doing that. I had 2 years in the Fifth Form,
and 1 in the Sixth and came out with School C(ertificate), and Pitmans typing exam.
{Eth} With your exams, the subjects you did, you did typing, what else? All the way through.
(25:27):
{Sheree} What the called Commercial Practice... its invoicing, making wills, things like that.
English, Geography, Biology, and of course we did cooking and sewing,
as well in those days at high school, Athletics.
{Eth} So can I just check when you did your typing exams, what sort of speeds were you typing at?
(25:49):
{Sheree} It are my gosh, I know in the Fourth Form I was doing 33 words per minute,
but it increased from there, of course, but I have no idea, sorry, what I was doing when I left. [Typewriter ding sound]
I know when I went for an interview, the interview for the job.
(26:14):
The manager, he just wanted to know whether I had School C, and when could I start, and that was it. [Sound of typewriters clacking]
{Presenter} Because Sally missed a lot of school in her childhood, due to her asthma, by the time she got to College,
she thought it would be better to take the General or Domestic classes.
However she was encouraged by her mother, and teachers, to do the Commercial course instead.
(26:39):
Hitting her stride during her Polytech course, Sally achieved good results, coming top of the class. [Typewriter carriage return sound]
{Eth} In the, did you feel any any pressure put on you? It sounds to me like you actually
were free to make your own decisions, as to what you did when you went to secondary school,
but you got some guidance. {Sally} Hmm, free to a point but that in those days
(27:02):
we only had, I mean I think it was three options. We had languages,
or Commercial or General so that those were the three options, and as I said,
I had missed a lot of schooling in my younger years and so possibly should have been held back a year.
(27:23):
But I wasn't. So I knew that the languages were out for me, so it was either the General or the Commercial.
And so...{Eth} So what did General tend to include? Was it cooking and...
{Sally} Yeah, very.. yeah it probably was. Home economics, yep that would have been what it was.
(27:44):
Yeah, I think my older brother and sister had done really well at school.
And so, yeah, I was a bit the dumb bunny, really?
And so, that's why I just thought, oh, I'll just go for the General because
that's what probably, what people expected me. But fortunately, fortunately my mother
(28:05):
and, and teacher, because I was at a private school then, they encouraged me to do the Commercial.
{Eth} And that's really good because that, for you, was a positive encouragement.
{Sally} Yeah, I hadn't even done that well at high school, I did pass
my School C, just. But, going to Polytech, where I was honing those skills.
(28:30):
I ended up coming, from quite a big group actually, in the class,
but I ended up coming first in typing and third in shorthand.
For me, standing up and getting those Awards was just amazing.
{Eth} Isn't that wonderful? Do you feel that had an impact on your confidence? {Sally} Definitely.
{Eth} So how did you get the job, at Māori Affairs?
(28:51):
{Sally} It was probably a bit naughty, but my Dad helped. [Laughter]
{Eth} You would be amazed how much I heard that. 'My mum got me the job, that first job'.
{Sally} My Dad been a, or had been a Probation Officer, and working in the Courts which was over the road
from the Māori Affairs Department and first of all he said 'Why don't you come and work in the Courts?'
(29:13):
I had an experience to go and sit in and I thought 'Oh no, this isn't for me.'
Too much pressure, couldn't handle that. But my Dad had known people
in the Maori Affairs Department and must have been talking to them about me, and when a vacancy came up,
I still had to apply and go through the interview process. But yeah, I think perhaps maybe,
(29:36):
maybe not, but I think perhaps he had a bit of an influence,
{Eth} Opened the door. {Sally} Yep. {Eth} What qualifications did you have?
{Sally} I ended up coming out with Pitmans, so A and B, which I think was typing.
And also first and second shorthand exams. [Sound of typewriters clacking]
(29:59):
{Presenter} Deborah had an unusual pathway to the typing pool,
after missing out on the entrance test for the Army, and a detour through a vocational course.
She eventually ended up in the Inland Revenue Department in 1987. [Typewriter carriage return sound]
{Deborah} I was born in Melbourne, Australia, and we lived there until I was 3. And then we moved to New Zealand.
My Dad's a New Zealander, my Mum's an Aussie, she was born in Brisbane.
(30:22):
My Dad works in the Post Office, worked in the Post Office, it's really a very nomadic life.
12 primary schools. {Judith} 12 primary schools? {Deborah} About 12 primary schools.
{Judith} Really? Around New Zealand? {Deborah} Around New Zealand. I lived at one point up in the Hokianga,
And I was the only white one there. Blonde curls and ringlets, yeah it was a lovely school, immersion in both English and Māori.
(30:45):
So I read about going onto the Marae, and the Māori culture, and things like that.
And we moved to Clevedon, then we moved to Hamilton at one point, due to my education.
That's where I really went into Intermediate School. And I went to Hillcrest High in Hamilton.
And stayed there until end of Sixth Form. {Judith} That's a co-ed school? {Deborah} Yep, it's a co-ed school.
(31:06):
Dad's been married three times, and his second wife, she told me I was going to be a typist.
And I was going to be a Chef, and this is, the these at what I was taking at school,
I was taking home economics and typing and that's.. I had no choice in it.
{Judith} That's really interesting. What would you have done, if you'd had an open choice?
{Deborah} To me, looking at what I've done in my lifetime, I would have probably done something with education.
(31:29):
Because I have an affinity for children. I love children. I used to babysit nine different families until I got married.
But anyway, the darling Stepmother, the day I finished high school and Sixth Form,
she had my name down at the New Zealand Army office. {Judith} Really? What a dominating person.
{Deborah} She was, and I failed the test, so then she spoke to her friend at Social Welfare or whatever it was called way back then.
(31:51):
And she put me into a course called LSV, Limited Volunteer Service with New Zealand Army.
It's for kids with no job skills but I had UE Accounting. {Judith} I was going to say, what did you have a school?
{Deborah} I got my UE, I got my... School Cert, I got English and Maths... {Judith's question unclear}
Maths, English,Typing, Home Economics and Social I think it was.
(32:14):
I tried UE accounting and just missed out.
Anyway I went on this course for kids with no job skills. It's a proper Army immersion.
And cos I could cook, I could sew, and I could type, I could either go into
the squadron's that looked after the clothing, or the cooks, or the clerical side,
(32:37):
and I ended up being in with Sixth Comp which is cooks and drivers, as an office clerk in there.
And I just loved it. {Judith} Really? {Deborah} Yep. I think I was the only female without a kid.
I know I was the only one without a police record. [Laughter] I loved my time,
and if I could have gone back as a civilian, I would have loved it. And my nickname was Left, Right.
(32:58):
Because I would take an extra left, right to catch up to everybody. [Typewriter ding sound]
As I say with the Army thing, she had my name down, again, I passed the test, but I failed the physical,
and I thought, well, no, I need to be what I want to be. And, you know, Dad being the Postmaster,
I worked in the Post Office for a little bit. I always thought that I would somehow get in the Post Office,
there were having redundancies and downsizing at the Post Office, and so then I went to the computer company,
(33:22):
so that was only there for about six months and then I got a job at IRD in 1987 and was there for 20 years. [Sound of typewriters clacking]
{Presenter} Eleanor wanted to be a concert pianist, and so against strong advice, took the Commercial course at college.
A lifelong learner, Eleanor went on to become a shorthand typing teacher in later years,
and eventually did attend University.
(33:45):
{Eleanor} I was a bright child, and I won several essay competitions and things locally,
and liked writing, liked reading. And then I went on to win a big.. uhm...it's an examination,
they used to have for a Scholarship that you got free Catholic Education,
(34:06):
at one of the, any of the big Catholic schools. And when I was told that I could be a nurse,
or a teacher, at 12 years old, I didn't want to be a nurse or a teacher. I was going to be a concert pianist,
and that had nothing to do with my future. So I said, 'Well, I don't want to be a teacher, or a nurse.'
And I put my feet down and said, 'No, I would not take up the Scholarship.'
I then head nearly every inspector in the primary schools or secondary schools,
(34:28):
or somewhere, kept marching up to the school and trying to convince me to go onto a professional education.
But I stuck to my guns and I did shorthand and typing. {Judith} That's fascinating. Why did you decide to do shorthand typing?
{Eleanor} Because that was offered at St. Michael's School. And if I went to, I decided that Sacre-Coeur
was far too expensive for my parents, even though I won the Scholarship. I still would have had to pay
(34:52):
for other things at the school, and I knew enough of the Sacre-Coeur girls to know that my parents income
would not keep up with the likes of Hugh Wright's daughters. And so, I decided that was out of the question,
and I didn't want to go to St. Mary's because my mother said, it would take so much time travelling,
I would have to give up my piano. {Judith} Which you weren't going to do. {Eleanor} I was not going to give up piano.
{Judith} How early did you start learning the play the piano? {Eleanor} 9. {Judith} You were 9? And you had a piano at home presumably?
(35:18):
{Eleanor} Yes, we didn't originally, I learnt at the Convent and I practiced at the Convent.
{Judith} Don't you think that in those days, particularly in the Convents, were fantastic with music?
{Eleanor} They were, well from an education point of view altogether, they were very wide. I've met a lot of Nuns
later in life who were very, very widely educated women really, who broke a lot fresh ground.
(35:40):
And I never saw any of the smacking across the knuckles and things that happened, that everybody says they had.
But I did receive a good education, in a limited way.
Yeah, we didn't do Science and I won first in Auckland in the Arithmetic competition
for the Chamber of Commerce or something. When I was year, what is now Year 9.
(36:01):
In the Third Form, but after that they didn't teach much, teach much Maths at all.
But by that time I was absolutely in love with shorthand. {Judith} And they did have a shorthand teacher?
{Eleanor} They did. {Judith} And a typing teacher? {Eleanore} Just the same person, taught everything.
{Judith} Why did you love shorthand so much? {Eleanor} I think it just appealed to me that it was a challenge.
It was not easy. {Judith's voice over top} It wasn't easy to learn and I very quickly was very good at it.
(36:26):
And eventually was probably the fastest girl in the little group that went through with me,
and I went on eventually to do my 130 words a minute but... and could do 200, I could verbatim.
{Judith} And did your parents agree with your decision, not to take up the Scholarship?
{Eleanor} Not really, but I think I was fairly stroppy. [Laughter] {Judith} Sounds like it.
{Eleanor} And I think they were used to... my Mother said she had to sit on me all my life, so I think she just thought
(36:52):
this was another case of 'We can't keep her down' [Laughter]
{Judith} So you did that for how many years at school? {Eleanor} 3. {Judith} 3 years at school.
{Eleanor} Yes, a lot of girls left school after 2 years in my era, only 2% I think, of girls went to University at that time.
And no we didn't do School Certificate. Again, I dug my toes in,
(37:14):
what was the sense of it, I was much faster than the School Certificate, I was doing 130 by then.
So why do the 80 for School Certificate [Laughter] And also I was up to Grade 8 in Music,
So I really didn't have any time for School Certificate.
{Judith} And you really wanted to play the piano professionally? {Eleanor} [Whispering] I did at that time, yes.
(37:34):
I was going to be a concert pianist. {Judith} And why couldn't you, why didn't you? {Eleanor} I met my husband.
{Judith} Oh well, that's a perfectly good reason. [Laughter] [Typewriter ding sound]
{Eleanor} And I eventually went to University at 55, and I did some before that, I did Economics, Accounting and Law at Polytech
and sort of brought my qualifications up to what was needed for Shorthand Typing Teachers.
(37:57):
And then I went and worked in the Polytech and I taught Economics, and mostly I taught Accounting.
So I've sort of moved away from the typing... part and then eventually they changed the type of shorthand,
and then they dropped short-hand altogether. [Sound of typewriters clacking]
{Presenter} After facing bias and discrimination in her early school years, for being Catholic,
(38:18):
Sadie recounts how religion influenced her choice of secondary school in the mid-1960s. [Typewriter carriage return sound]
{Sadie} While I was at Matamata College, my Mother, who had continued to teach school, developed ovarian cancer,
and that was a pretty gruelling time. My sister had, at this stage, left home as well,
(38:40):
and was working in Morrinsville. So, it was only just my brother,
who was farming, and myself at home.
I therefore left school and was helping him with the farm,
with the work sort of, like, housekeeping things you have to do,
and while my Mum was in the hospital and recuperating. So it was then that she, she and my brother
(39:03):
decided, you know, to sell up the farm really. And thank goodness, we moved to Hamilton.
Yeah, and so we went to Hamilton, I was asked what school I would prefer to go to,
and I chose Sacred Heart because it was an all-girls school,
and also because it was a Catholic school, which I loved St. Joseph's, in Te Aroha,
(39:26):
as my primary school. I did not enjoy Matamata College,
as in the mornings when they had Assembly, all the Catholics had to go out of the Assembly Hall,
and go and sit in some room, while it was over... while it was being carried on,
which is so ridiculous. But you were ostracised, you really were ostracised.
Because you were Catholic. {Eth} Wow. {Sadie} Very much, there was somebody
(39:51):
on a neighbouring farm, who caught the bus in, you would consider it bullying these days
And I was really... she really got her friends and they ostracised me because I was Catholic,
the only Catholics in the district. So I was very pleased to go to Hamilton. {Eth} Yes.
{Sadie} And go to Sacred Heart and ahm... {Eth} What subjects did you do?
(40:13):
{Sadie} Well, fortunately at Matamata College, I did excel in Chemistry and I loved it, and Algebra,
but when I went to Sacred Heart, there weren't the caliber of teachers to teach you that,
and so I did an Academic course, I did French and Biology,
and Geography, and History, all of that, but I really didn't enjoy it.
(40:36):
And so in the College there, I really didn't focus on academic things,
And my... to my Mother's chagrin really, because my two brothers had,
my elder brother was Dux at Matamata College and my other brother had excelled.
And both of them had gone to University, and my mother thought that
(40:59):
I should go too, but there was just a far, far, removed from
what I ever wanted to do. Because I could not imagine myself studying, studying, studying,
poring over books. And so I said no, I don't want to do anything like that.
And she said we have to do something, and my sister had been the same,
(41:20):
so my mother had sent her to the Brains Commercial College and so she went.
You've got to do something, so I sent her there, at least you've got that as a base.
So I went there and I learnt shorthand. {Eth} And what age was that? {Sadie} I was 16.
{Eth} 16 when you went to the College and that was, you'd finished your academic learning,
and this was the beginning, in effect, of your working life? {Sadie} Yes that's right.
(41:43):
So I spent a year, year there, and came out with the Junior exams Shorthand and Typing,
in Public, yeah Public Service? No, it was another one, 463 00:41:58,0488 --> 00:42:03,020 Chamber of Commerce, yeah. And so that sort of stood you in good stead.
Plus the fact that you had been to a Commercial College, stood you in good stead
(42:07):
to...for a job, So I landed in a job at Insurance Brokers, which I absolutely loathed
you know, wasn't even very long, only few months really.
I think I started in January, ended in May and a week later, I was working for the Post Office,
in Hamilton, and that was the start of my Public Service career really.
(42:29):
{Eth} So, when you left school, what had you achieved? Had you achieved School Certificate?
{Sadie} No, I didn't actually, I didn't, once again I went to night school and got it here.
{Eth} Okay. {Sadie} I went and got my School C through night school.
{Eth} And what subjects? {Sadie} English, Shorthand typing, Geography, ah, yeah, and History I think it was.
(42:56):
{Eth} It was pretty common, in the 60s, for people to be going to night school, men and women.
{Sadie} Yeah, I loved it. {Eth} Yeah.
{Sadie} I did a lot of night school training. [Sound of typewriters clacking]
{Presenter} Jan grew up Tirau, before attending boarding school in Auckland. And although she did not take any
(43:18):
Commercial classes during her secondary schooling, she did attend Seddon Memorial Technical Institute afterwards,
where she gained qualifications in typing and shorthand. [Typewriter carriage return sound].
{Eth} When it came to choices of topics, did you have free choice?
{Jan} Look at it as far as I know I did. {Eth} Yep. {Jan} We didn't, I mean there were academic subjects
(43:40):
and I was the middle in the middle. Whereas Tirau School, I was usually in the first, the top three.
At Dio, I was the middle of the middle. And our subjects were streamed according to,
well there were three, there was Latin, Modern and General.
And we didn't take, in the Modern Form, we didn't take Latin, and we didn't take ...yes we did, we took full Maths,
(44:05):
which I dropped. [Laughter] Yes... so that was the only difference is that we didn't do Latin.
{Eth} so you didn't do any commercial subjects? {Jan} No, no.
{Eth} Throughout that time, how did you do at school? You've said, you move from being in the top few to
being in the middle. How did you do in that bigger environment?
{Jan} Uhm, I could hide. [Laughter] {Eth} Yeah, yeah. {Jan} But I was a border of course, and there were day girls
(44:32):
as well, and they were like two separate cohorts, you could say, but we were well mixed, and
and we had some very good teachers. And it was when I went and worked at
Waikato University that I realised what a good education I'd actually had.
{Eth} So you would have sat School Certificate? {Jan} I sat School C, I got it.
(44:54):
And went on into the first year Sixth. They did have accrediting at that time,
I didn't get accredited, I hadn't done well enough in the exams, and I was pretty sure that I hadn't. [Typewriter ding sound]
{Eth} So then, what did you do? You'd finished school.
{Jan} It came upon me and I have no idea it was coming.
(45:14):
I was an absolute 'Oh! Oh what next?!' After leaving school,
well Mum had always wanted me, she hadn't had, she'd only had about two years of schooling,
and she wanted me to be able to work, if necessary, and to have some training.
(45:36):
And uhm now I look back and think I should have done Librarian work.
But however, I did, I went to Seddon Memorial Technical Institute in Auckland,
and did the Secretarial Training, which was very wide based, and very good.
And after about the first six months, I did very well, yes.
(45:56):
So I learned shorthand, and my typing was good, and I won't say it was that accurate,
but it was still, you know, the speed was there, and I got up to about 120, 130 in Pitman's
{Eth} So what exams did you get? And was it a one-year course?
{Jan} It was a one-year course. {Eth} Yep. {Jan} And so there were the Pitman's various speeds.
(46:20):
There was a Chamber of Commerce which you probably would have been... yeah.
And Chamber of Commerce also did bookkeeping, there were the bookkeeping exams.
And, and we had a good teacher and he decided all we were going to have a full set of books.
And so, did well. [Sound of typewriters clacking] However,
(46:42):
{Presenter} Sarah had started her secondary education in the mid-1980s, learning French.
However, her Mum changed her course selection to the Commercial classes
and Sarah quite quickly excelled in shorthand typing. [Typewriter carriage return sound]
{Sarah} So I was born in Auckland, so I was born at Middlemore Hospital, in Otahuhu.
And I went to Papatoetoe High School, which is in South Auckland and we had, I had a teacher
(47:04):
there, Mrs Vangerter, very strict, but very kind and I enjoyed her teaching,
so I excelled in shorthand typing quite quickly. You either had languages, typing or yeah,
it was languages or typing. {Judith} Why were you interested in doing French?
{Sarah} Because my friends did it? [Laughter] {Judith} Always the way. {Sarah} Yeah, so, and that's when Mum
went 'Nah, you're not doing to do that'. So she actually changed my what do you call them? Course selections?
(47:27):
Yeah, and that's what I did.{Judith} What had she done herself? {Sarah} She was a factory worker, yeah, cleaner...
she wasn't happy. {Judith} So she wanted you to do something with typing? {Sarah} That's right, yep, so I did that.
So I got all my, what would you call it, Pitman's papers, yep got on my certificates there.
And then when I left school, I applied... it was actually my grandmother who said apply for a job through the State Services Commission.
So my grandmother, her and I caught a bus into the city because we lived out at Manukau City, which is a bit of a distance,
(47:54):
and we went to this interview, and what they did, is they referred you to jobs that may suit. So I got a call from
the Otahuhu District Courts, and they wanted to be a typist. So I went to that interview and I didn't like that,
because, the lady was taking me through, she wouldn't touch handles, it was quite a dirty place.
It was like, well people going to Court... quite rugged. She wouldn't touch the doors, and said 'You know, you don't have
(48:16):
to go through this much', but it didn't impress me. So they offered me the job and I turned it down.
{Judith} Which is pretty bold for a sixteen-year-old. {Sarah} Yeah, well I was a bit scared too,
my grandmother said turn it down. So she was quite influential, her, my Mum and her.
Quite influential in my job choices, and so then I can't really remember, but then I got the DSW interview.
(48:37):
And it was to work in the typing pool as a Junior Typist at the Manukau DSW Office. [Sound of typewriters clacking]
{Presenter} Rachel's education and prospects were compromised by her poor health earlier in life, but despite
not being able to complete teacher training at University, she went on to enjoy her secretarial career.
{Rachel} I was born in Epsom, and I lived in Epsom until years after I left school.
(49:03):
First of all, I went to Model Country, a small school that was a model of a country school, attached to the Teacher's College.
Then I went to Normal Intermediate, also in the grounds of the Teachers College,
and then I went to St Cuthbert's for five years.
Then I went to the Auckland Technical Institute where took a year's Business course.
(49:24):
And after that, I had a year and a half at Auckland University, which I left through ill health.
{Judith} Why did you decide that you were going to a business area?
{Rachel} Because I'd had hepatitis very severely and my parents thought I might not be able to complete
a University degree. Which in fact I couldn't and I very glad to be trained to do something.
(49:45):
{Judith} And they encouraged you to go to the business college? {Rachel} They did really, they did.
They didn't want somebody who couldn't earn a living on their hands. {Judith} So that's interesting, because quite a lot
of people we've talked to, the need for women to earn a living is actually quite important in the 50s and 60s.
{Rachel} Yes. {Judith} Which probably before the War was less so. The assumption was you just leave school and get married.
(50:08):
{Rachel} Yes I think it might have been in the 50s and 60s too. [Laughter]
{Judith} And tell me about the business college, what you learned there?
{Rachel} It was a comprehensive course, we did English, Bookkeeping, what we call the machines,
but I think it was really adding machines, Shorthand and Typing. {Judith} You did do shorthand?
(50:31):
{Rachel} Oh yes, that was the major thing. {Judith} Which sort of shorthand did you do? {Rachel} Pitman's shorthand.
But now I discovered, that later they used to teach a kind of shorthand that doesn't reach the speed we got too in shorthand.
{Judith} Yes I understand. {Rachel} I don't know why they did that. {Judith} What qualifications did you get there? I
I got the Senior Government exam. {Judith} What is hard? {Rachel} Well, not many of us got it really.
(50:55):
And then, in a couple of years, I realised that typing was going to be my career, so I went for the advanced,
shorthand typing exam, and I got that too. {Judith} And why did you realise that typing was going to be your career?
{Rachel} Because I realised I wasn't going to go to the University and be a teacher.
{Judith} Was that a disappointment? {Rachel} Yes it was, but I had to face the reality of the situation.
(51:19):
And in the end I enjoyed being a Secretary, and particularly as time went on. [Sound of typewriters clacking]
{Presenter} Sally C was inspired by some of her teachers, whose encouragement helped her obtain School certificate.
Later in life, Sally gained a Graduate Diploma whilst raising a family. [Typewriter carriage return sound]
{Sally} I went to Te Puke High School, in the Bay of Plenty. I spent four years at secondary school,
(51:45):
and basically, I failed my first attempt at School Certificate, in those days.
So I went and did a second year and I had, you know, lots of problems really going through school.
Anyway I was really interested in Biology, I like the Sciences and I, you know, loved reading.
(52:09):
I was an avid reader all my life, and I had a really, really good English teacher and I took typing as well.
So those are the three subjects that really stuck out, and I loved Geography.
So those were all of the subjects that I really liked, and basically I was inspired by the teachers
that taught it, taught the subjects. The first year in typing, we just typed and stared at the keys.
(52:37):
In the second year, we got a new typing teacher, her name was Rose and she discovered that none
none of us could copy type. So she made, one weekend, she made bibs for all our typewriters,
and the following morning, Monday, we came and there was a big board, she'd made a keyboard,
(52:58):
a mock keyboard and we had, we had to blind type, basically, and learn to copy type.
And there are lots of dropouts. [Laughter] But I stuck with it, and learned how to copy type.
So she was very influential right through High School for me.
And also later on, we ended up playing netball together in a netball team.
(53:24):
Traveling, doing some traveling around together, and I still keep in touch with her.
My English teacher, I had a really, really cool English teacher, Mr O'Leary,
and he had long hair, and a beard, and smoked a pipe, and wore a headband.
And we thought that was pretty cool. He just explained English the subject in such a way,
(53:46):
that inspired me to write, lots and lots of essays, of different kinds,
in my last year at school. So I left school in the December, and I didn't pass my typing,
but my typing teacher said to me, 'You know, you should have, you should have passed your typing.'
She said, 'You know, this is ridiculous'. I think I got 48, so I rubbed that out, and I put 54 on my results,
(54:14):
and I got 64 for English, and I think I got probably 46 for Science, and about 45 for Geography.
You know, and I thought I really tried really hard but you know, like there was a lot going on in my life. [Typewriter ding sound]
{Rose} So your diploma is the diploma of...? {Sally} in Business studies. {Rose} Right.
(54:38):
{Sally} Yeah, it's an Undergraduate Diploma, but yeah. So I got that and I majored in Tourism.
Which is interesting because it's all generic, but you can actually transfer it to patients in hospitals,
because you've got long stay, short stay, different reasons for, you know, their visits.
(55:04):
Whether they're outpatients, inpatients, and that, and the same applies to uhm tourists.
You can have people coming from overseas, long-term people, domestic tourist,
short-term stays, different reasons for traveling, family and friends.
Whether they're visiting family and friends, or whether they're actually here on holiday themselves for other reasons.
(55:27):
You know, it's all that sort of generic terminology that goes with, yeah.
{Rose} So that was really, you would have gone into Whanganui hospital then?
{Sally} Yeah, I decided I would apply for a job, somewhere. {Rose} And the Diploma helped?
{Sally} Apparently yeah it did. Well I was still studying when I got my first job.
(55:53):
And interestingly that the only help that I got in my last year, with my last paper,
was they, I ended up working in HR but they agreed to pay half my paper if I passed, and I did.
But up until then, it was all self-funded, and I never once attended a course at Massey, 617 00:56:18,048 --> 00:56:26,060 because I had a family. So I did all of my study, and all of my course work, alone at home,
(56:26):
with a bit of help from Errol occasionally.
That was it, I did it all alone, amazing aye? {Rose} Incredible.
{Sally} I wouldn't do it now like that, well, you know. {Rose} It's amazing how, how we're able to do these things?
{Sally} I know. And raise a family. Amazing, and shift towns from Tauranga to... {Rose} Start a new life.
(56:48):
{Sally| Yeah, all that. [Sound of typewriters clacking]
{Presenter} Ngā mihi nui, and thanks to all our interviewees for sharing their stories.
In Episode 3 Life in the Typing Pool, Part 1, we hear about the various ways that typist found their first job,
and what those early days were like. [Typewriter carriage return sound]
The Keystrokes Per Minute Project was made possible by funding support from the Ministry of Culture and Heritage
(57:14):
and the Public Services Commission. Listeners can find out more about the project by visiting website www.storycollective.nz
The soundtrack was kindly provided by permission from the Boston Typewriter Orchestra.
Find their music and merchandise on Bandcamp.com. Thanks for listening. [Typewriter ding sound]
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