Episode 7 The Public Service & Women’s Work

 In this episode we hear about what it was like to work for the NZ Public Service, how the standards, bureaucracy, and culture shaped the working lives of many typists, and then take a broader view of women’s work through the eras.

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Find transcripts and more at www.storycollective.nz 

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This podcast is only made possible thanks to the work of the Keystrokes Oral History Project, find out more at www.storycollective.nz/background

Funding support from the State Services Commission (NZ) and the Ministry of Culture and Heritage (NZ). 

Soundtrack with permission and thanks from The Boston Typewriter Orchestra, find their music on bandcamp.com

© Copyright 2017 Meg Melvin as StorycollectiveNZ

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
[Sound of typewriters clacking] Storycollective, untold stories by and heard voices.
Keystrokes per Minute, a limited series podcast about the women of the New Zealand Public Service
Typing Pools from 1945 until the present day.
Haere mai, welcome to Episode 7, the Public Service and Women's Work, in this episode

(00:21):
we hear about what it was like to work for the New Zealand Public Service, how the standards, bureaucracy and
culture shaped the working lives of many typists. And then in the second half, take a broader
view of women's work through the eras. In this first, half of the episode listeners
will hear interviewees, talk about their experiences of working in the public service. They mentioned

(00:42):
some of the specific rules and regulations as well as the culture that dictated much of their daily
working lives. We kick off this section with interview, he's talking about their salaries
and pay scales with some explanation of the policies implemented. That would mean,
as Mary Dooley speculates, that [00:01:00] the type of class got left behind. There is an

(01:03):
excellent booklet published in 2003 celebrating 100 Years of the public
service. That provides the following information about the areas that were part of the scope
of the keystrokes. Oral history project from In 45 until today. However,
we need to reference the period, just prior to 1945 to explain the rapid change.

(01:24):
That saw many more women, join the public service during the years of the second world
war, 1939 to 1945 more than 9,000
public servants. And listed in the armed forces, this saw the number of temporary Public
Service staff nearly tripled from 6600 to 17,600

(01:46):
the Majority of whom were women by 1950. The overwhelming male dominance
of the public service had weekend. Following the wartime appointment of these woman staff,
female, Cadets were finally permitted to join. [00:02:00] The permanent staff in 1947
and the old rule that woman resign immediately upon marriage was dropped. However, whilst

(02:08):
policy might have changed societal attitudes, were not always so quick to follow
and there was still an expectation. Woman, leave the workforce upon marriage, even into the early
1970s, however, by 1955 woman represented
more than 28 percent of the core public service. But woman clerical, workers

(02:30):
and type us were included in this group. We're still denied the same promotional opportunities
as their male counterparts and paid far less the PSA,
the public servants Union, gained public, and political support, for a campaign. N4
equal pay and a 1960, the Labour administration of prime minister Walter

(02:51):
Nash change the law, allowing equal pay to be progressively, introduced
into the service. [00:03:01] Mary, Dooley's
career spanned from 1950 to 1993. So, she has had a lived
experience of how the public service which reflected the views of New Zealand. Society

(03:12):
valued typists through a 40-year period, Mary starts this clip talking about
the unusual situation of working mothers in the 1950s, who starting
salary and how the public service attracted staff. She then explains
some of the policies that keep the salaries of the typist. Lower end of the pay scale.

(03:33):
Can you tell me then? In the first days. So when women
got married, what happened? Well I think that an act is, I understand
it. Now looking back and I know that like wasn't lady that these
young girls were coming in to take over jobs that people were leaving from one was a

(03:54):
case where the woman was leaving because she was having a baby, they didn't even come back to work. Usually, in those days
they left [00:04:01] and then I brought up their families and then
the The part-time ones would often be women, who were coming back into the workforce, who had children at school,
wanted the school holidays off and wanted to work 9 to 130, or something like that. So they'd be at

(04:16):
home in the morning or 9:30 to 1:30 a four-hour day and then
so that they could be off to school. And then, they'd be home in time for them when they
came home in the afternoon. So it was quite well. We had to,
we had to endure it because it was just Why things were you could not

(04:37):
get staff and keep staff. The pay I started work other
day after my 17th birthday, in the pay rate was 165
pounds a year for my starting, Tay. And when the school certificate
results came out of fortnight later. I got a 30 pound a year rise. I went

(04:58):
to 195 and that was my [00:05:01] annual salary for that year. And it
went up to Auntie or something like that. The following year
on the anniversary date of my appointment. So I did you get a pay rise on each
end of verse 3? Yes, you did. You got it until you'd been there for five years

(05:19):
and then he stayed there unless you were integrated position. But before I had got to, the end
of five years, I had become the senior shorthand typist. And then after five years,
I'm on my sixth year, Miss Willis left, and I actually was appointed
hit. Harvest of that pool. It wasn't a big problem was an apt. It was up to nine people

(05:40):
and I work there and for another and I bet till I've been in health department
for 11 years, I knew the supervising typhus, it
education Justice and say, social welfare. Of
course me at labor was and of course Health you know, all of these people

(06:01):
[00:06:01] they were very, very I used to think of them as being much much, you know,
more senior than me. I was way down there, but then, no,
I were all single each one of them. A lot of them had Add a story to tell because their
fiance's and got killed at the war or something like that. Most of them, they

(06:24):
had some family responsibilities like looking after mum and dad or something like
that and I looked after my mother and father did you have any um, Yes.
Sofia say, yeah, I belong to that. Yes. From the
first of 84 of 1950. Well done.

(06:48):
Well, that was my first year. I started in January of that year and it wasn't until
when I decided I should join the union. I think I might be enjoying the day, I started,
I'm not sure, but I do know that my girlfriend [00:07:01] who worked and Railways Department. Her birthday
was on that day and so she was going to join the union and that's why I've

(07:09):
decided, she joined the union. And I joined our Union, the clerical class
completely. We were totally ignored. As far as ratings were
concerned, our pay was absolutely, I was was see receiving
the sort of pay that a class 5, Clark, would get with 80 staff under me, you

(07:31):
know. I mean, I didn't have to do hand, hold their hand, but I had to find them and
get the job done. And I do you recall that
first of all, when I went to internal fears in 75, that was an Sprayed
and it was up to 40 staff. It was exactly 40 staff. And I

(07:53):
was their only about a year or maybe 18 months when State Services Commission, decided
to divest themselves of the [00:08:01] ministerial typing staff
and stead of them being responsible for finding staff for Minister's office.
Has internal affairs would look after that because we already looked after government

(08:14):
house national museum, National Art Gallery. Historic places. Trust all the little
places all around town were part of our 40 with one or two
people in each one of these places. And This
next 40 was only going to be another 40. So what so the admin officer

(08:35):
I remember how delighted he was at the department was going to get this responsibility because I
found out later, of course that he got a huge amount extra because his payment up so
much but my me that one grade. The
rain tells Judith about how her pay was delivered to her in the typing pool in the 1960s

(08:58):
and how different skills were awarded higher [00:09:01] salaries. She wisely took her father's
advice to join the union that represented government workers. The New Zealand Public Service
Association known as the PSA. We were pay and
conditions to help improve and six of my first pay became a little brown envelope. That these two men

(09:18):
from accounts came along with this little suitcase. Every second Wednesday and
and you all lined up beside him in the typing room. And you've got a little brown envelope and mind, Williams
Ellie 1206, hey literally, the cash handouts here when
you didn't, then I said a bank account but I was just the savings. You didn't transfer money in those days and

(09:41):
we used to spend ages plotting how we would Rob him. So
your first pay was 12 and 12 and 6 for
tonight. I don't know how you got raises every year. Automatic Racers to meta, [00:10:01] crazy. Yeah.

(10:02):
But because they were always trying to economize. We didn't sometimes
get, you know that. Well, that was it. Sometimes they just didn't, they couldn't give it to everybody. So
they know I'm talking about everybody in the department. You can arise arise but because I
the dictaphone I got an extra. I think it was 50 some of the 50 pound or 25 pound or something a year. Whereas

(10:22):
the shorthand has got much more than that belong to you. Yes, I belong to the union on the, my
father told me to join the Union. Why was that? Why did he think you should join the UN? Because he'd been in the government,
all her in the post office, all his entire life, really? So he was and he told me to join superannuation from the day. I
joined because he said in the depression in the government, they kept the people who are on superannuation.

(10:44):
So he told me to And they cut off all the others. You had a mother worked in the government at all. When
you got married in those days, you had to let she was a proofreader at the government. Print also
actually that you had a family connection with the public service for, aren't you? My father started as a telegraph
[00:11:01] by and worked up to being the senior supervisor, all the mail rooms in the North Island. Did

(11:06):
many people go on, go out of the typing pool all together to
other work and other positions, or to bpa's or secretaries. Yes, it's some of that
some of them became secretary, some of them here but the majority, I remember, one of our type is kept a list of
who came and went in a two-year period. And it's something like 17 people. This was this

(11:26):
was by the time, our Port have got bigger downstairs, and we had about 15 people in the pool because
people didn't want to work in the government, the pay was not good. By
the 1970s. When Minnie entered the workforce, the Equal Pay Act of 1972
had been introduced which prohibited discrimination of pay rates of employees, based

(11:49):
on the six of the employee and gave the employment Court power to State, the principles
for putting equal pay into place. This was one of many attempts for your policy to
improve. The pay equity for [00:12:01] women in New Zealand and this clip Mentor tells us about her salary
and the cost. Of living in the 1970s. My roof is payer and beginning.

(12:10):
It got $80 a fortnight, it justice. I got a little bit more than the working holidays.
So when I got $80, I cried and I had a flat. So when we finally got a flat, I had to pay
me paid monthly it was $120. I got 160. No, yeah, 160.
So I only had 40 dollars in a fortnight to buy food, pay, electricity light, sort of carrier.

(12:34):
It was quite common for entire families or even Generations within families to work in the
public service, especially in the post office and the railways to of the largest government departments.
In an earlier episode listeners heard an excerpt of Louise's interview about her role as
data entry operator for first for the Post Office and then the broadcasting computer

(12:55):
center, Louisa sister N8. Also started who working life in the post
office [00:13:01] is a junior shorthand typist in. In 72, progressing
to senior shorthand typist with the regional Engineer's Office. In the hood, street one
events tasks. During her time, there was to do the payroll for the Post Office linesman

(13:16):
every Fortnight and this clip, she recounts for Judith, what that entailed and how back-pay
will cost of living adjustments, was sometimes quite substantial. Interestingly Louise
and in its mother, Kathy also had a job with broadcasting, though, an unusual one
which involved walking Around the suburbs of Wellington ensuring homes had a TV broadcasting

(13:37):
license which for a brief period of about 10 years was an annual fee of
$110 per year per household to fund public broadcasting. After
n, it's clip Sister Louise, gives a quick rundown on her, starting salary and the cost
of living expenses, like and heard Street, Post Office, it would be salaries and

(13:59):
they would need. So they were just, [00:14:01] so there were six typist. So, for them might be on salaries. That
was a huge deal, manually typing every Fortnight, the celery. So so
your type Smith been grasp a, then
minor superannuation a lot, everybody and us, we talked their own pay and we did

(14:20):
that our department. Did that every Fortnight manually. So, nearly 2,000 staff,
then you had to go to your adding machines and edit all up and no mistakes. Or if you made a mistake, it could
sometimes take half an hour to find, you know, to balance it. Yeah. And then sometimes you have to part one
of you, one of your work mates and sell, can you help me? Because I'm really having trouble balancing this, and we used to get co-opted

(14:40):
when there was back, pay six shorthand typist would say, okay, I've told the clerical staff,
no shorthand next couple days everybody's doing cost of living back, pay wage
General wage or to back pay because there was a lot then you could go and buy a new car with your back pain, which we often
do not a new one, but another Little Beaver or something. So [00:15:01] let's bring all

(15:02):
those adjustments. It had to be manually every every time for everyone. Yeah.
What did you do about lunch and things like lunch, we had a cafeteria in those days the area and we were on the floor
whether we're on the floor in the cafeteria was and morning to your course, you went out and he was check you'd up
all your cheapest chips. Well, I think the first I'm not sure whether it was the first wage or

(15:24):
whether it was after we got a pay rise but the money that sticks in my head as my first wage and I remember
was 30 $3.97 a fortnight and $16.55 and I paid, I
paid my board of $10 or Fortnight. I save some money. Money. And I bought my little bits and
pieces, and I was saving for a car, pay Transporters and transport year Sadie

(15:48):
tells us about her experience of the annual performance appraisal process and how she learned to
talk the talk to take the pressure off, were you always given performance
appraisals, all the way [00:16:01] through? I've yeah, it was harrowing,
you know, once you got up into the career line of senior

(16:10):
shorthand, typist you had to go before a panel every year, the a panel of four
people who would ask you this question. You know, about how you're managing
role play, you know what, the best thing I've done through, give us an example of this
that you've done throughout the year and you've got no training for that. There was one thing, you know,

(16:31):
hours to just about, spend a week of sleepless nights before going into that. Because
that was, when you came out of that, that defines you, your pay. Yeah. It worked in with your
salary but anyway and the end I learned how to do
it very good. Lovely. What is your biggest goal to be the most

(16:52):
effective and efficient supervisor that I can be. Now, don't you stood there?
And I did that. Every time [00:17:01] I said I'm using those Buzz words. If we picked up any
fashion, Rosemary
found, the culture was different when she did some relieving work for the 11th, floor Executives in the GPO.

(17:17):
On the 11th floor and there was for the fixative. So
I did that for a few weeks, it came with its own seat of wrong, sexual
act or women. So they still have a lot of meetings up there under no
circumstance where you either to interrupt a meeting of the executor ever. There

(17:39):
was a roll, never interrupt. We were told
how to speak to him sector. But we could say Sidra,
and I can remember that was the first time I'd ever done, dictaphone
work, and it was from mr. Rose, he was called, and

(18:01):
[00:18:01] he had been to Telle conference in Geneva. And
he'd come back with a cassette tape that he needed transcribed, and it was
the most boring topic, but Partway
through the Beatles. Let It Be was on

(18:22):
the tape. So whether he decided to break the board and with Let It
Be or how that got there. I don't know that I transcribe, this
Telltale settings called a till step conference and
Elizabeth Denton, Eva a little baby, which was a pleasant surprise.

(18:51):
And I was also argue that [00:19:01] or
do you think they disregard it was part of them. I think that we were disregarded
as part of the equipment. I think the expectation was that we were there and we do

(19:12):
our job really well and relieve them of any worry. They had
about the word, Jill was also
exposed to a new environment when she was sent to a relieving role this time at government house.
So 69, you were promoted to senior. What could that

(19:33):
change for you part? Presumably your pay. Yes, I think that's
when I was sent off to do those big verbatim
short ends around that time, right? And I also got
to spend a week relieving at government house or the

(19:57):
governor general secretary secretary had to [00:20:01] go to hospital. So
I got the job of relieving. Well, it was really nice. The first day I got picked up at the station
and we're driving to government house. And I pass one of my friends, so, I waved out like the queen, I
can imagine. Yeah. So you would have been 19 years and

(20:22):
the secretary to the governor general who I was working for could do
200 words a minute himself and short end, which That's pretty amazing.
And while I was there, it was one of the ladies in waiting
Birthday. So they were having champagne for her and the governor-general

(20:45):
came down. So I drink champagne with the governor general of
the working environment, there was there quite a bit of formality around. Yeah, so I
found it with my background was pretty working-class
background, [00:21:01] so he's dictating things like Aid to can't

(21:06):
and so I had to ask what is that and how do you spell it? It. Yeah, it was
really out of my league. Jen was
challenged by the more formal environment of the public trust office having left broadcasting and
was given Specific Instructions on their expectations of Howland. Should be a tired and

(21:27):
it was supervisors were strict year they were and it was a very formal environment. The
district public trustees ring a bell at 10:00 and that was our signal to go and have a
cup of tea. Did you go to a cafeteria or just seemed a little Siddhartha raining and then it
10:10 a drink? Bell again and we don't get to go back and have him finish the drink.

(21:49):
That was too big. There was no talking in the office and miss it was work-related
and she know we had a head. Muddy Brown
liner on [00:22:01] the floor and great, big concrete pillars, there was bars at the windows
and it was a, it was an awful environment. I really like that because

(22:11):
when you, that was an interesting challenge, so of course, I'd come
from, you know, there's radical radio environment and I teamed up in my mini skirts,
which I might add wearing like, a couple of inches of other than me and I got
called into the public trust. It went exactly indecent. No, not at

(22:32):
all. I went into the district public trustees office. He called me, and he
said that, my money skits were most inappropriate and that environment, and
that I had to wear skirts that were cuff link. Rather than oh yes,
I really. So I quickly ring my mum who's a seamstress and I see to him unconcerned,

(22:52):
quick Me, Whip me up some skates. They have to be, you know, say she did get ejected
it. Well, I was young ammonia but to do [00:23:01] what I'm told. So all these
skits and then in the winter, I was biking to work and
I tend to start wearing trousers and I got pulled in to the heat, I pass this time

(23:14):
and I didn't 76 in 27. Yes. And after International women's year. Know
what I had was, trousers, I used to wear Cardigans and things of them calls, but he spoke
to here, who then in turn spoke to me. And she said that, if
I wanted to wear trousers, I must wear a long line jacket that covered my posterior.

(23:40):
I was only about seven half stone. That means that wasn't big and he
said, because it was distracting for the gentleman and the office. So
act came along long, my chickens and then a short time after that, they
decided that we should live a uniform, the typhus and say,

(24:00):
it's [00:24:01] the fall. Yes. So they got the student form and it was a cream jacket
and it had orange and brown geometrical, shapes on it and brown trousers,
long line, decadal and it was absolutely hideous. So, 70s 80s and we
had to actually buy it ourselves. And I And out through a union friend

(24:21):
that they couldn't make me do that. So, I rebelled and I refuse to weird and
so yeah, I was a marked woman. They did not like me. I was the young rebel and
I love it. Robin tells us about the employees
handbook and glide time, which was introduced to relieve overcrowding on the public transport

(24:43):
into and out of Wellington during peak hours. I think
if I remember rightly, there was an employee handbook, right? And no expected
Behavior was somewhere. Probably written. And I
do remember about the [00:25:01] Glide time and not, you know, taking that not

(25:05):
abusing that but You know, people would kind of put
it on Friday, I think the earliest you could finish with 3:30 so the you know, the organization
was pretty much down on people, 3:30 on a Friday and next
up are a set of funny stories that could only happen to someone who works in a government Department, including

(25:30):
bumping into the prime minister of the day on a Wellington Street but they sent
me out relieving a lot another time. We'll meet a living at school pubs, which was school Publications. They
were up Willis Street to, but it was an old house. Yes. And when I say it was an old house, we had a bathroom,
everything. But the editors were brilliant that they had their, they were like, Alastair Taylor the publisher of Little Red School

(25:50):
book. I think he was and, and was James K Baxter. Every time he got in a row with his wife, he came
and slept in the bath. And they didn't [00:26:01] want
to be like, do with education because they were Rebels, you know, they just come and go when they felt like
it and the editor told me, one of the it has told me once that what they used to do is they used to sleep in bed

(26:11):
in the morning and then they'd ring up and they put the vacuum cleaner on and then you bring up education
and say, I can't come in today because I'm down at the government printer. Those
were the days when they used to trundle round the great big files finish for
the file and it would go and we go back down to centralized filing. Yes, and

(26:32):
remember, little me the push them around. We need this little lady. My little lady. Oh, she
was lovely, but she was somewhat wanting in certain things, but she was
somewhat crappy and others and I can remember went finding who you're hiding in a Cupboard
and she's writing thinking I suppose to meet in Jesus. He had a crazy sister

(26:53):
and I found that she was at the runner for the ti babe. What
is people who didn't [00:27:01] have a phone? That's
wonderful. Yes, is

(27:24):
watching there was a shop be that used to sell beating
plants and I never getting out of me a lot and
there was the kief Holyoke with a bad thing of really of spending cuts
and he was coming along and heated, don't suppose you'd mind opening the book. I'm

(27:47):
in New Zealand. Absolutely, absolutely.
Only musically could you have that you know just with no security guards around getting
his own big fan [00:28:04] of
statues outside. National

(28:18):
had just come into government, mr. Holyoke, I used a minute. Oh, now tell me about the anecdote,
with Hollywood. And
I had gone over to the ministry of education's office, and it was leaking,
lovely mean, and he'd gone out and I was left in charge. I hadn't been there very long, probably

(28:39):
a week. And so, somebody knocked on the door and walked in, and they said, could they see
mr. Tennant, and I said, no, I'm sorry, he's out. And he said, ah, I'll just
go through it. No, I said you can't go through. You have to wait. And so I by that time I'd moved up must end
for you and square on the door and he couldn't get through. And so he talked tried to talk me into letting

(28:59):
him go through and I said no, no, no. I'm sorry. But that time I was edging him out that I said nobody comes [00:29:04] in without
an appointment and so I edged him out the door and shut the door. And the next minute, a hat comes
flying in through the door, the doors opened and the face comes around and said you don't know who
I am, do you? I Whatever, his name was Holyoke Keith

(29:20):
Holyoke. Where I nearly died. I have a very, very poor visual memory. And
meantime, they're all smoking as well. And things went off by it. So
you know, paper and then someone would have an edge with drop. And whilst

(29:47):
there have been many challenges for the keystrokes interviewees over the ear has since the 1950s,
there has been a shift in attitude and how their skills as In assistance. Now
are valued the next to interviewees Sandra first. And then Carolyn talk about
how they've [00:30:04] been supported by managers to grow their careers and explain what factors

(30:08):
have helped their professional lives. And I had a really good boss, you
know, I really support of manager, really supportive of the secretarial profession. So
I was pretty lucky that way, I guess makes an enormous difference. Yeah, really does. Yeah.
So he supported all my old me all the way. And I think, even in terms of remuneration, he was quite

(30:30):
supportive of that as well. Recognizing the value of the Roll where I think sometimes that isn't
always the case very often, it's just work that women do. Yeah. I
think I just like to comment about changes in the workplace,
really that we now have women as managers. We still have

(30:50):
a problem with women who don't get the right training
to be a good manager. Also impressed with the fact
that no longer being administrators [00:31:04] that you're just a secretary or
you're just doing Administration, we call, you just work in an office, but actually it is amongst

(31:12):
a good number of people recognized as a career path. In my last few
jobs. I've had I've part of what has helped me get those jobs is
that I have a done, some study that I've recognized As that
I had a professional body, a aliens ID and I've also the certification

(31:33):
has been important. And even though, when I get my last job, my certification
little acts due to my early retirement. It was still that I had.
It worked hard to get to, that was important to the person who employs me, we
leave the last word on the section about life in the public service with Pamela who like most of the interviewees.

(31:57):
He's was proud of their work for the New Zealand government. Wonderful to work for. [00:32:06] You
would never treat it as though you're just. The type of which is something that has struck
over recent years. It was courtesy, it
was just plain good. Old-fashioned is good manners and they

(32:22):
were proud proud of the job they did. In
the section of the episode, we take a wider view of Woman's Work across the different areas of Our interviewees
Lives, from the 50s to the 90s to understand the iniquities experienced
by women. Either in the public service typing pools or within their class of work, the clerical

(32:44):
Administration field This cohort the iniquities existed throughout
the whole of their lives. Through the education system, the unfair work practices that
ensured a lack of progress, both financially, and without a recognized career path as
well as in terms of harassment discrimination and bias to help us discuss

(33:04):
this aspect of woman Works. I'd now [00:33:06] like to welcome my mum Lorraine Melvin also known as Rose
to the podcast. Regal listeners will have heard Rose in the role of interviewer for the keystrokes
oral history project. T' and may remember that her working life started in the GPO typing
pool in Wellington as a shorthand typist and 1964. Two

(33:25):
decades later the intersection between her career in administration being a feminist in a
long-standing union member lead Rose to become a union. Organizer for the Wellington
clerical workers union, fast forward. Another two decades in Rose was able to
fulfill her long-held ambition to attend University. Asian who late? Towards

(33:47):
studying towards a Bachelor of Arts in gender and women's studies was Victoria University
graduating in 2010, welcome Rose. And I'd like to thank you and the other
team members. Judith Aitken S Lloyd, Rachel Brown, and Maureen Goodwin without
whom this podcast would not exist. But first [00:34:06] rose, maybe you can tell us about how you became

(34:08):
involved in the keystrokes oral history project. I was out for lunch
with Maureen who is a good friend of Judas and they had had an idea that was growing
about. There is no history that we know of around women
and girls who worked in the public service typing pools. And

(34:29):
I said, oh that's interesting because I started my career as a shorthand
typist in the GPO and Wellington which was the national office. So
Maureen said to me, well, that's It's fine. We're meeting next week so
you need to come along. So that's how it all started at. So you started your Bachelor

(34:50):
studies in 2006 and whilst doing research for your first assignment at led to an
epiphany that know about your own education experience. Yes.
So we were ready in our second semester to get down to hard work
and research. [00:35:06] So gender 101 was gender

(35:10):
analysis. Enjoying my studies, realize that a 1947,
the the Labour government of that time had had a policy
that said that all children and New Zealand were entitled to a free education, a
free equal into education. The reality in the Epiphany

(35:32):
was that during the 50s and 60s. When I was in
school prior to going to college that the general View, You and it was
probably the same in my home as it was in the school. That
yes they were and inequalities but it was quite appropriate to have them because

(35:53):
the role of schooling then was to prepare both girls and boys for
adult life and it was essential to maintain social cohesion. So
even by the 50s, when you think [00:36:06] about coming out of the second World
War and what the expectation was It was kind of considered

(36:14):
to be nature. So the nature would be that I would be required to
learn how to cook, you know? And so and be prepared
to be married and have children in this next clip. More in an F discuss,
the limited career choices for women in the 50s and 60s, which is representative of a conversation.

(36:35):
Heard many times during the keystrokes interviews, my sister and I
were just talking about this thing. Just the other day she wanted. She
went nursing and don't get me wrong, she loved nursing. But she had
to go nursing. I probably had to go and do a job as

(36:55):
a shorthand. Typist noelene wanted to go into forestry
and birds, she would have loved to have gone and done that, but that wasn't a job
[00:37:06] for women in those days. I know teaching office work, shop work,
yes. Reducing reducing. Yes, exactly. You did have

(37:16):
five choices? The
opening clips of this episode, we heard from interviewees talking about their salaries and Mary,
duly told us about the disparity between her salary is the head of a department and that of
a male colleague during research for the keystrokes Project ROSE. Also found out about

(37:36):
the size of the pay Gap from her shorthand typist annual salary and that of a mail
Clerk I think I knew obviously that they
would have been paid more well more than myself but at well after all I was
a junior. So what would happen is, you would sit an exam and you would get a pay increase.

(37:57):
So once you had your Junior typing and your junior short end, and then you set
your senior and you would get a wage [00:38:06] increase, what I didn't
really think about or believe was the Gap that was between
a Yeah, shorthand typist in a class and it wasn't until

(38:19):
in this project. Rachel and I went to the archives to do some research,
and lo and behold. There was these gray files piles and piles
of them for the post office going right back right back to the beginning. So I thought to myself,
wow, I must be in there. So I hunted through a found my year and lo and behold

(38:40):
yeast. There I am and it tells you what your exam results Sui what you wages were. And
so when I get to my, you know, past my senior typing and shorthand, I
discovered that I was on something like three hundred and sixty five pound a year, so
it was in an annual wage that was in the book. So then I started to

(39:00):
think, boy, I'm going to go and have a look, I could remember a couple of names of Clark's.
[00:39:06] So we know in over I looked and I win, I mean to say to Rachel
I need to take a photo of this. Did was this person that I knew was
on over 900 pound a year, as a Clark? I was stunned.

(39:22):
Absolutely stun. Talk about an equity. I mean, that's just unbelievable
that there were we, you know, with these amazing skills although
I obviously had come up through my life, knowing about how far behind
we were in in equal wages, but I was actually stunned at the Gap.

(39:43):
And those days in the six days and course you know they believed that
we would go off and get married and have children and and you
would be looked after. So therefore men had to have these high wages so that they could
look after their families. I

(40:04):
mean, we were only women. I know. [00:40:06] And how are we had the task of seeing those pictures of advertising
for shorthand, typist and sitting on the man's knee and writing? It's, you know it was a common
thing you saw it was advertised in a magazine or those words spoken
by. Gareth about the way I type us was being portrayed in advertising during the 50s and

(40:25):
60s speaks volumes about the way Society viewed woman in the workforce. During
the oral history interviews. One of the questions posed to the interviewees was whether they had experienced
themselves or witnessed any form of harassment or sexual harassment in the workplace.
However, the tomb sexual harassment is modern and was actually first coined in 1975

(40:48):
when Lynn Farley American author and journalist testified, before the New York City
Human Rights Commission hearings on women and work defining sexual harassment
as unwanted sexual Answers against women employees, by mail supervisors,
bosses Foreman [00:41:06] or managers. These actual words might not have been

(41:09):
used during the interviews, but not because the interviewees didn't see or recognize their
status and treatment for exactly what it was equity and equality denied.
Feminist might have given us the language. But decades, if not centuries before woman understood
and recognized sexism in and around their whole lives, in this verse Rose.

(41:31):
Recounts her time in the typing pool and how there was no name at that time to
describe the inappropriate behavior and the unfairness of the power imbalance, that existed
from my memory. I recall feeling very safe and side the typing pool. I
always thought that the supervisor was very powerful.

(41:55):
And when I mean, powerful, she had the ability to protect particularly
The younger junior short in typists so she knew of a certain
[00:42:06] people's inappropriate behavior. And, and those were innuendo
comments about your clothing. Bearing in mind in the 60s, mini

(42:17):
skirts were were coming in asking if you had a boyfriend and, you know,
your own relationships And it seemed to me that if
you were engaged or perhaps married, although
I don't remember many married women in that particular typing pool. At my time,

(42:39):
they were considered sort of lease fear game. That's
the right word but of course as you became more skilled and once you were,
you were in your senior shorthand typist years and she would often not
have any choice. And you would need to take notes for me. It was a problem

(42:59):
because this particular person would always think it was okay
[00:43:06] to sit with a cigarette in have one
hand on your knee. So you would just have to sit there
and and take your notes, but the reality for us was

(43:22):
most of our education about their it and there was no name for this. There just
wasn't a name for us but often in the cloakroom, we had our own cloak room
and we'd often have a chat about our please, not today. Not today.
It's not my day today and we'd laugh and joke and goat knows your tune. How long

(43:43):
is it? Since you've had To do that person's short end. So we did talk about it,
but we had no name about that. Now, here are some narrated
responses to the question about sexual harassment in the workplace. Most from the 1950s
and 60s. One, interviewee, recalled an occasion, that required them. As supervisor

(44:04):
of a typing pool to provide [00:44:06] protection, I can't say that it was that prevalent,
but there was the odd case where somebody being noted for being a little bit too friendly or fresh.
And so you would not let the young girls go. There, you didn't say anything, you just keep them away. Another
interviewee remembers two occasions during the 60s twice. I got very

(44:26):
low key. Once a man came up behind me when I was relieving and he put his hands
on my shoulders and sort of massage me down the front and I was uncomfortable and I told my
boss and she pulled me out of the office that I was relieving in an another time,
his car was in the garage. So he asked, can I have a ride down to the railway station?

(44:47):
And I said, yes. And he put his hand on my knee and sort of Up my skirt while I was driving
and, and I've always remembered that. And another woman remembered, the
problem of Simply going up some stairs to get to the cafeteria, you went up the spiral
staircase and so what we girls did would [00:45:06] hold our skirts down. So the men couldn't

(45:08):
see up. As we went up the spiral staircase we used to laugh about it, though was sort
of like treating them as creatures. Oh, we can't do that because the men will look up our skirts.
Type has tried different methods to express their dislike of being physically harassed. One of
them were used to call him groper because he put his hand on you all the time and I remember one of the typist

(45:30):
told him to get your hands off me, but you didn't accept it, and you sort of wriggled around
and maneuvered your way out of it. In contrast, a couple of our interviewees
did not consider what they experience to be harassment. Quoting directly from one interviewee
working in government, in the late 1950s mean would flick you on the bottom but that

(45:50):
would never worry you. You took it as a compliment if they did. It was all. Oh, you're looking good. Today,
I see, you've got a new boyfriend. It was always taken in a jovial way. 50
years later the me to movement Has Lifted a veil exposed. Harmful, sexual [00:46:06] behaviors
in the workplace. Us and demanded that we do better, which is a quote from an article titled.

(46:12):
How could central government better respond to sexual harm and the public service written by
carry back master in 2018 for policy quarterly, a length of
that article is in the show notes. This paper Catches Us up to date with what is now, termed,
sexual harm in the workplace and is a sobering read that offers one, conclusion, that power

(46:33):
dynamics, influence, sexual harm, employees and subordinate positions. Us and
women in supervisory roles between the ages of 30 and 40 for may
be at higher risk as our women in general migrants in the financially vulnerable.
Equal employment opportunities in the booklet. 100 Years of the public service,

(46:56):
the mention of equal pay for women starts way back in 1914, picks
up momentum again in the 1960s. And once more, [00:47:06] this time was policy
and oversight by the Equal Employment unit during the 1980s, by
this time, not only is the conversation about equal pay for equal value for women. But the

(47:18):
salary Conditions and opportunities for Maori and pasifika workers as well.
In this next set of Clips listeners hear from to keystrokes interviewees about the hard
work of the eeo offices during the 1980s. But before that,
we kick off this section, with a unique perspective, from the daughter of a pioneer

(47:39):
of the eeo movement within the public service. Amy Laban. In
this first clip we hear an excerpt of a full interview with Amount of Oahu game
Winifred Laban, who is a former New Zealand politician and was the Labour party spokesperson
for Pacific island Affairs and for Interfaith dialogue currently dating when he is

(48:01):
the assistant Vice Chancellor, Pacifica of Victoria University of Wellington and [00:48:06] as a respected
leader in the local Pacifica Community whinnies. Mother. Amy Laban
was a long-serving public servant and is believed to have been the first Pacifica woman
to be ahead. Typist of a Aunt, typing pool in the late 1950s. Judith

(48:23):
and Maureen interviewed, when he about her mother's career and we apologize for the poor quality
of the audio recording. But feel, this is an important piece of history that firmly belongs
in the keystrokes project. My mother was
a me and then Lisa, she was the oldest of team and of course

(48:45):
that the girl and was born on the 28th of May, 1926
and son. There are only three really good career options open for
women and they were typing nursing and teaching as
well. So, she also learned shorthand [00:49:06] shorthand typing,

(49:07):
and typing at st. Mary's, and what happened was that she ended up
working for Sakai polls when he was in some, or working as an administrator.
And then I think the first High Commissioner before Sam, all became independent, Them and
when she works for hum because she would lot of the typing and I think a

(49:29):
lot of the earlier drafts of the legal processes around the Constitution because

people like Professor Davidson (49:34):
Aikman people from New Zealand who
were good people who supported Sam was journeying with Independence. So
she worked for Sakai polls and he enabled
her to come too. Zealand on the scholarship. A cool breeze, business is

(49:56):
a good business college. And so on done, Amy return to some more immediately.
After finishing her studies at gilbey's business college. And then what happened was [00:50:06] that
I think the she met dad and then suck. I've I think helped them to come to
New Zealand. I think the cuz they were both the oldest. Yeah, so that's the whole immigrant story.

(50:17):
I didn't see it as well, and they came in 1954, and then I was
born. In 1955 and they got married early 1955. And
then mum. Always remember my might she took time out. Of course,
my brother was born key in the following year and always remember

(50:39):
Mom going back to work. So I think she worked for the New Zealand state
advances. I think maybe he moved from these higher for dr. Rafter
was quite a famous scientist and then I think social
welfare and and then I think she was probably one of the first Pacific

(51:01):
because she was the head of the typing pool and she had a very large star. [00:51:06] Dad
actually worked for 40 years for the minister for the public service, not only in Samoa, but
New Zealand, but he was in the ministry of works. Mom was the first Pacific.
Hmm. He was the early 80s of the EO formerly,

(51:22):
the Triumph, of course she was the one for social welfare. Yes. The
commission had three. Yeah, that's three Commissioners. Program was kidding. I think
so. So and then EO came through. That's right early ages and it's wrapped in the commission from
anyone in end it was becoming formal policy remote. Brian the kick

(51:43):
in the butt Erick service. Hmm, that's right. So I think because
mum was also a minority and because she understood
what it's like to be a minority and to be outside, the glass ceiling, if
she was more open to having diversity and her teaching, you know?

(52:05):
And so [00:52:06] I think the whole wasn't he was already pissed at a
but it's like, man, who occupied those roles? And also
not only that had to manage the people who wanted the work done. Immediately, Amy
Analyse a Laban was awarded the Queen's service middle and 1991 for

(52:25):
her contribution to Community Services Pacific advisory Council and Simone advisory
Council. We acknowledged a short clip about Amy's contribution to the advancement of the
woman of the public service. Typing pools does not fully appreciate the enormous effort
and hard work that she did and creating opportunities. He's an improving. The working lives

(52:46):
and social progression for Pacifica people. Over her lifetime. 1996.
Yes. And Evo was new. Yes. And
there was a wonderful woman. The Isabel who was the CEO of the syrup? [00:53:06] Eventually,

(53:07):
is what your title was cancerous. Such a lone voice, really? And she had been a PA
and see me PA and I looked up to her and then she took on the CEO and I thought, what is this
causes? You know, and she was trying to Enlighten, she was such a strong female role model. She is N choose
P side as well. So yeah, that was became hijab. And I say, oh wow, has she tried

(53:29):
to do it all on top of being, a senior PA and in it, she could Oneness position. I thought she was so
awesome and she was but now really what's the deal? You know,
big, my daughter Evelyn, I know so but then it was a very
big deal. Yeah. Was a very big deal but

(53:49):
obviously it was very satisfactory. The very productive from your point of view. What? Is it a station that
you think it was been properly recognized property? Valued properly? Placed I
don't do Public Service as well as in The Wider world. Yeah, at the time,
probably not. [00:54:06] Because I remember my manager at the time. She was always

(54:11):
there were doing pay Equity conversations across the public service and
in comparing us to social welfare and the time and what the girls and the tribunal colder compared
comparisons and, you know, and we I seem to always get paid less than other departments, and she was always
trying to get us paid more than, you know, to bring us up on par with other

(54:32):
departments. And you know, trying to convince the managers that, you know, they
didn't need to buy the field office, I'm not the car. They could give that to ask for a pay rise and, you know,
those sorts of things. And so, I guess at the time, you know, there was always those
conversations going on about pay equity. And did you tell yourself? It was valued as a

(54:53):
As a profession and then my total would past. I mean compared with other
skill jobs, like with Ms is all the value is already. If I didn't feel it, certainly
going under you didn't [00:55:06] feel undervalued, you felt, you were just
another time within the wider team in which is great, it in the department.

(55:15):
Yeah, you certainly didn't didn't feel never felt under value. That all know. And how did
you feel as a public servant was that a very was At a significant part of their profession being a public
servant as well as being professional. Yeah, I always liked the fact that I
worked. I was a public servant that I worked for the the government and Well

(55:38):
here we are the end of episode 7, the public service and Woman's Work. The last
of the full hour episodes in this limited series podcast. I want to thank all of
the interviewees, whether their voices have appeared in this podcast or not, which was only
due to time, constraints, or poor audio quality for their permission to record.

(55:58):
And here the rich stories of their careers. And I personally took great Delight in the way many interviewees
Express their gratitude. Dude at the [00:56:06] conclusion of their recorded interview about how wonderful they
had been to afflict on their working lives and for many it was the first time they had been
asked about such. So now the keystrokes oral history project and this podcast

(56:20):
is a legacy for themselves. Their families and future generations to hear their
stories either online or at the Alexander Turnbull. Library part of the national
library. Archives of our teodoro New Zealand. Our last episode is
actually He to half our bonus episodes, one about the government to hyper-strike

(56:40):
of 1985 and the second valuing the profession, which delves into the
work and history of a, a pnz the association of Administrative Professionals
New Zealand. The key strokes per
minute project was made possible by funding support from the ministry of culture and Heritage and the Public

(57:01):
Services Commission. Listeners can find out more about the project by visiting website. Dub-dub
[00:57:06] dot story, Collective .n said, the soundtrack was kindly provided by permission.