Faithfulness Over Greatness: Daniel Im on Healing, Discipleship, and Rethinking Church Growth

Episode Transcript
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if the truths of the gospel are unchanging, how do you communicate the gospel in a relevant way to meet.

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The hearers and the hearts of those who are there. 3 00:00:11,736.278245673 --> 00:00:16,26.278245673 a disciple of Jesus gathers, grows, gives, and goes together with others. 4 00:00:16,395.157331738 --> 00:00:24,833.556860772 I remember him saying he realized, Hey, what if instead of doing great things for God, we just started doing things for a great God. 5 00:00:25,224.373482813 --> 00:00:29,364.373482813 it's not about getting, and, having a bigger building and more attendance. 6 00:00:29,364.373482813 --> 00:00:32,274.373482813 This is about making disciples who make disciples. 7 00:00:37,151.582296822 --> 00:00:41,111.582296822 A very warm welcome to the Lausanne Movement Podcast. 8 00:00:41,111.582296822 --> 00:00:46,1.582296822 For those who have a passion to accelerate global mission together. 9 00:00:46,269.701981654 --> 00:00:59,469.701981654 I'm your host, Jason Watson, and today on the podcast I have the joy of sharing an interview with Daniel Im who is an author and the lead pastor of Beulah Alliance Church 104 year old church in Edmonton, Canada. 10 00:01:00,8.242846002 --> 00:01:12,863.593846002 During our time together, Daniel challenges the way that we traditionally think about the local church and discipleship, offering us practical insights into how he is applying these principles in his own ministry experience. 11 00:01:13,143.843279109 --> 00:01:24,53.593846002 He also took a moment to share very vulnerably about a painful season during his ministry that left him disillusioned both with God, but more particularly his calling. 12 00:01:24,443.185682737 --> 00:01:30,743.185682737 Now I know that this kind of disillusionment and pain is something that is not foreign to those of us in ministry. 13 00:01:31,223.185682737 --> 00:01:37,203.185682737 And if that is true of you, I believe Daniel's story could be an encouragement to you. 14 00:01:38,333.185682737 --> 00:01:56,823.18568274 So if you have a passion to see disciple making churches for every people in place and want to be left encouraged by a pastor, passionate about the great commission, then I wanna invite you to go ahead and grab your headphones and let's dive into to today's interview with Pastor Daniel. 15 00:01:57,98.18568274 --> 00:01:57,318.18568274 Im. 16 00:02:00,161.06263341 --> 00:02:01,751.06263341 Daniel, welcome to the podcast. 17 00:02:01,751.06263341 --> 00:02:03,41.06263341 It's great to have you with us today. 18 00:02:03,403.06263341 --> 00:02:05,618.06263341 Jason, it's an honor to be on with you. 19 00:02:05,838.06263341 --> 00:02:06,578.06263341 I'm excited for this. 20 00:02:06,784.11361585 --> 00:02:06,964.11361585 Yeah. 21 00:02:06,964.11361585 --> 00:02:16,564.11361585 So today we're gonna talk about all things church, all things discipleship, and how those two things diverge together and are meaningful for the great commission. 22 00:02:16,954.11361585 --> 00:02:25,862.58573936 And when these topics came up and we were planning for the podcast, you were one of the first people to come to mind, because of the books that you've written, how you've influenced me. 23 00:02:26,157.58573936 --> 00:02:28,142.58573936 And so I'm particularly excited. 24 00:02:28,212.58573936 --> 00:02:39,207.58573936 For this interview but perhaps for those who have never heard of you, don't know anything about you, could you just introduce yourself, share a little bit about what, God has placed in your heart and what he's up to in your life. 25 00:02:39,779.58573936 --> 00:02:40,769.58573936 Yeah, totally. 26 00:02:40,769.58573936 --> 00:02:52,49.58573936 So currently I live in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada, which for those not familiar with Canadian geography, I'm about three hours east of the Canadian Rockies. 27 00:02:52,709.58573936 --> 00:02:55,409.58573936 serve as the lead pastor of Beah Alliance Church. 28 00:02:55,439.58573936 --> 00:02:57,629.58573936 So we're 104 year old church. 29 00:02:58,799.58573936 --> 00:03:04,527.58573936 Edmonton, which has started over 30 plus churches since its founding, and Wow. 30 00:03:04,799.58573936 --> 00:03:09,629.58573936 of incredible missionary focused stories, in its history. 31 00:03:10,17.91907269 --> 00:03:15,387.91907269 So I've been here for a total of 10 plus years, but I've been back for six. 32 00:03:15,447.91907269 --> 00:03:18,807.91907269 Been the lead for four, four and a half years. 33 00:03:18,807.91907269 --> 00:03:23,290.91907269 I took over from a 30 year lead pastor Wow. 34 00:03:23,487.91907269 --> 00:03:25,587.91907269 succession is a big part of that story. 35 00:03:25,947.91907269 --> 00:03:28,897.91907269 But prior to that born and raised in Vancouver. 36 00:03:28,987.91907269 --> 00:03:31,987.91907269 My parents immigrated from Korea in the seventies. 37 00:03:32,567.91907269 --> 00:03:40,217.91907269 And so I grew up within, actually my wife and I recently started talking about this, the fact that English is my second language. 38 00:03:40,427.91907269 --> 00:03:49,667.91907269 And it's funny to think about, 'cause I was born and raised in Vancouver, born in Canada, but it literally was, I went to English, I went to ESL classes in kindergarten. 39 00:03:49,667.91907269 --> 00:03:52,967.91907269 And so that's, yeah, that's another funny story there too. 40 00:03:53,487.91907269 --> 00:03:59,547.91907269 yeah, I grew up in Vancouver and since then I have pastored in Ottawa in. 41 00:03:59,897.91907269 --> 00:04:05,807.91907269 Montreal in Korea, Edmonton, and then I was in Nashville and then came back to Edmonton. 42 00:04:06,810.91907269 --> 00:04:07,110.91907269 Yeah. 43 00:04:07,397.91907269 --> 00:04:08,387.91907269 in a few different countries there. 44 00:04:08,679.41907269 --> 00:04:13,899.41907269 Am I right that you served in Korea as well, so that's three continents or three different countries rather. 45 00:04:14,246.41907269 --> 00:04:14,876.41907269 Three countries. 46 00:04:14,876.41907269 --> 00:04:15,86.41907269 Yep. 47 00:04:15,654.41907269 --> 00:04:15,894.41907269 Okay. 48 00:04:16,104.41907269 --> 00:04:30,56.41907269 tell me what has your been your experience been as a pastor in three different countries? What has been the distinguishing factor? What have you noticed that is different? Some good things from each, space Yeah, that, that's a good question. 49 00:04:30,386.41907269 --> 00:04:33,529.41907269 And I think part of my outlook I. 50 00:04:34,106.41907269 --> 00:04:46,118.40741236 life and in ministry is yes, affected by the fact that I served in different countries, but also by virtue of being a Korean Canadian and being of two cultures. 51 00:04:46,118.40741236 --> 00:04:48,463.40741236 In that way, there's this sense of, okay. 52 00:04:49,128.40741236 --> 00:04:56,71.40741236 Immediately when I go into a room, am I a part of, the minority or am I a part of the majority, right? Being a Sure. 53 00:04:56,448.40741236 --> 00:05:01,8.40741236 I see when I enter into a different context. 54 00:05:01,8.40741236 --> 00:05:12,883.40741236 There is a sense of, okay, what does it mean if, the truths of the gospel are unchanging, how do you communicate the gospel in a relevant way to meet. 55 00:05:13,258.40741236 --> 00:05:15,628.40741236 The hearers and the hearts of those who are there. 56 00:05:15,838.40741236 --> 00:05:36,88.40741236 So I had, and, I wonder how much of it is part of my upbringing and also part of the experience of living in For example, there, when I lived in Nashville for five years, it was fascinating because folks would be like, oh, isn't that, wasn't it great? Wasn't it great to live in the Bible belt? And, I was like, actually it was a bit jarring for me. 57 00:05:36,718.40741236 --> 00:05:42,448.40741236 'cause I grew up in a culture and in a place where you didn't just say you were Christian because. 58 00:05:43,338.40741236 --> 00:05:44,478.40741236 just a cultural thing. 59 00:05:44,538.40741236 --> 00:06:02,688.40741236 There was no advantage to saying you were And I remember moving down to Nashville and meeting all my neighbors and every time we go anywhere, we're always praying, God, would you prepare a place for us? would you open up opportunities for us to share about who you are with those were connecting with. 60 00:06:02,778.40741236 --> 00:06:05,838.40741236 'cause we're not just moving for work, we're moving. 61 00:06:05,838.40741236 --> 00:06:07,398.40741236 We see our lives, our whole lives as. 62 00:06:07,458.40741236 --> 00:06:08,538.40741236 Being missionaries. 63 00:06:08,898.40741236 --> 00:06:13,728.40741236 So when I went down and met all my neighbors and they all said they're Christian, I was like, oh, shoot. 64 00:06:13,908.40741236 --> 00:06:15,258.40741236 We moved into the wrong neighborhood. 65 00:06:16,848.40741236 --> 00:06:25,180.68202807 And then I quickly realized that didn't necessarily mean what I thought it meant, I've definitely experienced that, that same reality here in South Africa. 66 00:06:25,390.68202807 --> 00:06:30,31.24799049 they say that 80% of South Africans, will proclaim that they're Christians. 67 00:06:30,481.24799049 --> 00:06:37,981.24799049 But when you actually begin, and so you can go into the streets and you can say, Hey, do you believe in Jesus? And they'll say, yeah, we believe in Jesus. 68 00:06:37,981.24799049 --> 00:06:42,571.24799049 And then when you dive into what they actually mean or how they actually live their lives, you quickly realize. 69 00:06:43,186.24799049 --> 00:06:51,316.24799049 What we believe and what we understand to be faith in Christ is very different to the subculture of Christianity in our nation. 70 00:06:51,316.24799049 --> 00:06:52,786.24799049 So it sounds quite similar. 71 00:06:53,148.24799049 --> 00:06:53,208.24799049 yeah. 72 00:06:53,208.24799049 --> 00:06:53,688.24799049 A hundred percent. 73 00:06:54,241.24799049 --> 00:06:54,541.24799049 Yeah. 74 00:06:54,811.24799049 --> 00:07:01,23.94358829 So I, before we dive into church, I would love to chat to you about your L four experience. 75 00:07:01,333.94358829 --> 00:07:11,968.94358829 You are one of the first pastors that I've had on the podcast and we've chatted a bit about, with some, guests about their experience with the Congress or with Lausanne. 76 00:07:12,598.94358829 --> 00:07:26,728.94358829 But I would be particularly interested to hear from you and from your experience as a local church pastor, going to an international gathering of missionaries and workplace leaders and other pastors who had gathered from around the world. 77 00:07:27,88.94358829 --> 00:07:30,968.94358829 Tell us about your experience and as you reflect back, we almost had a year now. 78 00:07:30,998.94358829 --> 00:07:38,738.94358829 as this podcast is being recorded, tell us a bit about your experience and how you feel God has maybe used that in your life, or maybe he hasn't. 79 00:07:38,798.94358829 --> 00:07:39,368.94358829 I would love to hear. 80 00:07:39,855.94358829 --> 00:07:40,815.94358829 Yeah, there is. 81 00:07:41,115.94358829 --> 00:07:42,945.94358829 I had such great anticipation. 82 00:07:43,680.94358829 --> 00:07:55,320.94358829 In preparing to go in, reading all the documents and being a part of the journey to the Congress in prayer, in reading, in the State of Great Commission report. 83 00:07:56,190.94358829 --> 00:07:59,670.94358829 I just, it, there, there was so much anticipation there initially. 84 00:07:59,670.94358829 --> 00:08:04,350.94358829 My wife, Christina, and our three kids, we were planning on all going together. 85 00:08:04,755.94358829 --> 00:08:06,813.94358829 Because Christina and I lived there for Yeah. 86 00:08:06,885.94358829 --> 00:08:10,185.94358829 and our firstborn was born in South Korea. 87 00:08:10,215.94358829 --> 00:08:12,298.94358829 When we were ministering there, we thought, Wow. 88 00:08:12,405.94358829 --> 00:08:15,135.94358829 to bring them back and bring the other two kids. 89 00:08:15,135.94358829 --> 00:08:15,855.94358829 They never experienced. 90 00:08:15,855.94358829 --> 00:08:20,788.94358829 It didn't end up working out because they would've been three weeks into school in September at the Yeah. 91 00:08:21,645.94358829 --> 00:08:27,825.94358829 with their age it didn't, so, there's a sense of anticipation of, oh, I'm, I haven't been back to Korea. 92 00:08:28,40.94358829 --> 00:08:29,690.94358829 Since we left in 2010. 93 00:08:30,110.94358829 --> 00:08:36,776.949438 And for those who know a bit of the story that written about a little bit here and there in my previous books. 94 00:08:37,59.85313281 --> 00:08:39,609.85313281 it was an unexpected departure from Korea. 95 00:08:39,789.85313281 --> 00:08:43,599.85313281 It was a hard departure from Korea that where I was. 96 00:08:44,14.85313281 --> 00:08:45,934.85313281 Questioning my call to ministry. 97 00:08:46,204.85313281 --> 00:08:49,84.85313281 I was questioning just so many things. 98 00:08:49,114.85313281 --> 00:08:57,242.85313281 No, I wasn't angry at God for what happened and the church politics and everything that played into it, but I was just very disillusioned with the Yeah. 99 00:08:59,224.85313281 --> 00:09:01,264.85313281 and coming back to Korea. 100 00:09:02,29.85313281 --> 00:09:09,469.85313281 14 years after all of that took place, there was this anticipation of, okay, I learned about Lauzen in seminary. 101 00:09:10,129.85313281 --> 00:09:14,869.85313281 I, I've read books of the lauzen, the, currently all of these things. 102 00:09:15,169.85313281 --> 00:09:26,697.96034887 And then, finally getting there, being back in Korea and being in this place you have, I forget how many nations are represented there, Yeah, it was close to 200. 103 00:09:28,94.96034887 --> 00:09:28,639.96034887 of just. 104 00:09:29,309.96034887 --> 00:09:39,666.33956357 Not only hearing worship my mother tongue in Korean, but hearing worship in different languages, in just being with the nations. 105 00:09:40,356.33956357 --> 00:09:44,236.33956357 it was such a beautiful experience that, that, that hearkens back to when I. 106 00:09:45,241.33956357 --> 00:10:03,540.61361878 went on my first mission trip and got involved with Campus Crusade for Christ and, my heart toward the Great Commission grew from that place, it, gave me of that, but also this sense of, okay, you know what? God, I know that you have called me to be a missionary in Canada. 107 00:10:03,720.61361878 --> 00:10:04,80.61361878 Like that. 108 00:10:04,80.61361878 --> 00:10:06,928.61361878 That was a very distinct calling in my life where my Yeah. 109 00:10:06,990.61361878 --> 00:10:16,470.61361878 I were praying about are we called to be missionaries overseas? and there's this distinct word I heard from God where he was like, no, you're a missionary in Canada. 110 00:10:16,528.61361878 --> 00:10:16,888.61361878 Wow. 111 00:10:16,950.61361878 --> 00:10:17,488.61361878 And Yeah. 112 00:10:17,520.61361878 --> 00:10:24,360.61361878 neat kindling and a rekindling of that as you heard, not only the. 113 00:10:25,120.61361878 --> 00:10:34,120.61361878 historical and the theological talks, but the prophetic ones, where I, forget her name, but that one speaker, I think she was talking about Europe. 114 00:10:34,120.61361878 --> 00:10:37,660.61361878 She was saying, Europe isn't post-Christian, but it's pre revival. 115 00:10:37,990.61361878 --> 00:10:38,533.61361878 And I Yeah. 116 00:10:38,770.61361878 --> 00:10:49,180.61361878 back to BAH in Edmonton and I was like, Hey, y'all, this is and I started recapping what I learned and I said, this is what she said about, this is what she said about Europe, but I believe this is what's happening in Canada. 117 00:10:49,303.61361878 --> 00:10:49,573.61361878 Yeah. 118 00:10:49,870.61361878 --> 00:10:51,280.61361878 just the sense of. 119 00:10:51,590.61361878 --> 00:10:56,630.61361878 Of, of resonance that I sensed in my heart and through the spirit of God. 120 00:10:56,660.61361878 --> 00:10:59,203.61361878 So there, I could go on and on but Yeah. 121 00:10:59,360.61361878 --> 00:11:00,800.61361878 a incredible experience. 122 00:11:01,114.05974721 --> 00:11:01,354.05974721 Wow. 123 00:11:01,384.05974721 --> 00:11:03,994.05974721 No, I'm truly encouraged to, hear that. 124 00:11:04,144.05974721 --> 00:11:07,804.05974721 And perhaps there are those who are listening that are resonating with you. 125 00:11:08,120.04720282 --> 00:11:14,540.95129984 I recall one of my favorite moments at the Congress was just having communion with everyone, and it really just felt. 126 00:11:15,495.95129984 --> 00:11:17,325.95129984 heaven on earth for a moment. 127 00:11:17,775.95129984 --> 00:11:24,525.95129984 it felt like the nations, every tribe in Tang, although they weren't all represented there, it was a taste of what's to come. 128 00:11:24,525.95129984 --> 00:11:27,765.95129984 And so it was, for me, it, set my heart on fire as well. 129 00:11:28,304.33484076 --> 00:11:28,904.33484076 I wanna just. 130 00:11:29,114.33484076 --> 00:11:38,774.33484076 Dive into your story for just a moment because I'm hoping that many pastors do listen to this episode, particularly because it's connected to church and mission. 131 00:11:39,224.33484076 --> 00:11:44,954.33484076 You mentioned something about your story of how you, you left disillusioned and. 132 00:11:45,354.33484076 --> 00:11:47,904.33484076 That is not a unique story for, just you. 133 00:11:47,904.33484076 --> 00:11:55,774.33484076 I think that's a, story that many ministry leaders I would say particularly pastors, they, experience a disillusionment. 134 00:11:56,704.33484076 --> 00:12:00,244.33484076 they're driven to, church because they have a call from the Lord. 135 00:12:01,84.33484076 --> 00:12:04,24.33484076 But, somewhere along the line, everyone's story is slightly different. 136 00:12:04,24.33484076 --> 00:12:11,524.33484076 There is a moment where, you stop and you actually doubt not only your calling, but you doubt God himself and. 137 00:12:12,359.33484076 --> 00:12:19,979.33484076 I would love for you just to speak to, that pastor or the ministry leader right now who, may be in that position feeling disillusioned. 138 00:12:21,209.33484076 --> 00:12:23,90.04359566 what would you say to them? Oh man. 139 00:12:25,280.04359566 --> 00:12:31,460.04359566 It was a, for year, it was a, yeah, it was a 14 year journey of healing from that moment. 140 00:12:31,650.04359566 --> 00:12:38,250.04359566 Where initially when we came back from Korea, it was about half a year of desert. 141 00:12:38,655.04359566 --> 00:12:51,105.04359566 Absolute desert where there is this husband slash father side of me where I felt this need to provide. 142 00:12:51,345.04359566 --> 00:12:53,805.04359566 And was qualified to do was pastor. 143 00:12:54,225.04359566 --> 00:12:57,655.04359566 So there's this sense of that's was all my education. 144 00:12:57,655.04359566 --> 00:13:00,325.04359566 What else am I gonna do? I can't do anything else. 145 00:13:00,715.04359566 --> 00:13:06,715.04359566 And applying to all these churches that I felt underqualified and also other ones that I felt overqualified for. 146 00:13:07,465.04359566 --> 00:13:09,415.04359566 and it wasn't because of a calling. 147 00:13:09,415.04359566 --> 00:13:11,395.04359566 It was literally just to get a paycheck. 148 00:13:11,858.04359566 --> 00:13:17,425.04359566 Yeah, And my wife and I, with our daughter, we were in one room in my parents' home. 149 00:13:17,425.04359566 --> 00:13:22,765.04359566 And I was feeling such shame in leaving, saying, oh yeah, we're going to Korea. 150 00:13:22,765.04359566 --> 00:13:23,665.04359566 We're doing this then. 151 00:13:23,665.04359566 --> 00:13:24,625.04359566 And then just feeling. 152 00:13:25,330.04359566 --> 00:13:28,840.04359566 Feeling like a dog with my tail between my legs. 153 00:13:28,928.04359566 --> 00:13:29,228.04359566 sure. 154 00:13:29,560.04359566 --> 00:13:37,830.04359566 shame in coming back and just wanting to get out, but knowing what else I could do and God in his divine providence. 155 00:13:38,880.04359566 --> 00:13:40,500.04359566 Shutting every single door. 156 00:13:41,850.04359566 --> 00:13:47,730.04359566 I even worked at Subway, like I, I worked, I, we served like 240 sandwiches in one hour. 157 00:13:48,210.04359566 --> 00:13:49,980.04359566 I'm not a sandwich artist. 158 00:13:49,980.04359566 --> 00:13:51,330.04359566 I'm a sandwich artist. 159 00:13:52,50.04359566 --> 00:13:55,470.04359566 There's, this skill I have in making sandwiches and my family knows it. 160 00:13:55,650.04359566 --> 00:13:58,308.04359566 And, even Subway wouldn't hire me, Wow. 161 00:13:58,440.04359566 --> 00:14:00,210.04359566 single door was shut. 162 00:14:01,230.04359566 --> 00:14:03,90.04359566 in that moment of just. 163 00:14:03,840.04359566 --> 00:14:06,960.04359566 Just getting on my knees and saying, God, I have nothing. 164 00:14:07,20.04359566 --> 00:14:08,10.04359566 I am nothing. 165 00:14:08,10.04359566 --> 00:14:09,270.04359566 You are my everything. 166 00:14:09,270.04359566 --> 00:14:14,100.04359566 And getting to that point getting to that point of desperation and full on surrender. 167 00:14:14,100.04359566 --> 00:14:20,35.04359566 That's when my friend, who his dad was a pastor in Calgary, invited me to come and speak at their young adults retreat. 168 00:14:21,105.04359566 --> 00:14:25,755.04359566 And I asked what and what to speak on, and he was like, oh, whatever you wanna speak on. 169 00:14:25,755.04359566 --> 00:14:33,495.04359566 So as I was praying about it, remember Eugene Peterson did a series of lectures at Regent College in Vancouver on the life of David. 170 00:14:34,275.04359566 --> 00:14:46,925.04359566 And so I bought those lectures, I started listening to it and that they, were so timely for me because I realized how much I was putting on Saul's armor and also. 171 00:14:47,675.04359566 --> 00:14:58,595.04359566 The biggest difference between David King, David and King Saul when you examine both of their lives is that King Saul never had that desert experience. 172 00:14:59,345.04359566 --> 00:15:11,495.04359566 And when you look at how the desert experience shaped David, both before, like after he was anointed as king and then later on when he was king and his son Absalom chased him out and he was back in the desert. 173 00:15:11,645.04359566 --> 00:15:18,665.04359566 And you, and, we have the Psalms as a result of a lot of those desert moments, the way that God deep deepened his prayer life. 174 00:15:18,935.04359566 --> 00:15:32,165.04359566 The way and even when you compare Saul and David, right? And you're like, Hey, didn't Saul commit? didn't David commit the greater sin than Saul? and you look at all of that, and then you look at the fact that David is a man after God's heart. 175 00:15:32,315.04359566 --> 00:15:42,738.04359566 and you wrestle through all that and you cause there is this deepening, there's this formation, there is this shaping, there's this discipleship that happened in the desert for Sure. 176 00:15:42,965.04359566 --> 00:15:44,285.04359566 that didn't happen for soul. 177 00:15:45,620.04359566 --> 00:15:59,630.04359566 it was a combination of all of those things where, when and after I, I just continued to lay myself bare before God, he, helped me understand these things and he began this healing journey in my heart. 178 00:15:59,840.04359566 --> 00:16:01,783.04359566 That's when he opened up the doors Sure. 179 00:16:01,820.04359566 --> 00:16:10,54.43427522 us to get back into church and find this pastoral position at the now the lead pastor at, but then it was a different position. 180 00:16:10,667.61258113 --> 00:16:12,677.61258113 was like the, the initial six months. 181 00:16:12,677.61258113 --> 00:16:15,780.61258113 But Jason, like I said, it's a journey Yeah. 182 00:16:15,917.61258113 --> 00:16:29,177.61258113 this series of the six months, then the second series and phase was constant bringing it before Jesus, but and the trauma of what happened in Korea. 183 00:16:29,572.61258113 --> 00:16:30,425.61258113 It Yeah. 184 00:16:30,442.61258113 --> 00:16:46,972.6125811 on coming up and it kept on coming up in different ways over the next 14 years through nightmares or dreams or when I would be in a situation where those over me would be giving me a performance review or those over me would be critiquing me. 185 00:16:47,302.6125811 --> 00:16:52,912.6125811 I would feel it back in my body what happened in Korea because trauma. 186 00:16:53,932.6125811 --> 00:16:59,152.6125811 And then the third phase being, I've been doing three years of EMDR. 187 00:16:59,683.4639413 --> 00:17:16,333.2309302 and it's a particular method in therapy where it's targeting trauma in your life and it's not a Christian method, but through this, God said, Jesus said the great, love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. 188 00:17:16,663.2309302 --> 00:17:20,713.2309302 And it's a psychological therapeutic method that targets the trauma. 189 00:17:20,763.2309302 --> 00:17:32,299.8839867 That's in your mind and in your body, and it's actually through that method that I've experienced a new measure of healing where and release and freedom from that trauma in the past. 190 00:17:33,229.8839867 --> 00:17:39,646.12302 and that's 14 years in, in five minutes, but in, thank you so much for taking the time. 191 00:17:39,826.12302 --> 00:17:47,206.12302 this was an unscripted question and I, truly appreciate the, vulnerability that you brought to this conversation. 192 00:17:47,306.12302 --> 00:17:50,246.12302 Because it's through this that, that we can all relate to you. 193 00:17:50,246.12302 --> 00:17:53,606.12302 I can relate to you be, I think often there is this. 194 00:17:54,261.12302 --> 00:18:00,51.12302 Level of shame in the pastorate or in the ministry where we have to be almost super human. 195 00:18:00,541.12302 --> 00:18:05,791.12302 and to be able to hear your human story helps us more engage. 196 00:18:06,571.12302 --> 00:18:13,523.0214663 So, you've gone through this journey than there are others who perhaps also on their 14 year journey, what is something. 197 00:18:14,283.0214663 --> 00:18:25,743.0214663 That you could encourage another person on this journey going through their trauma, going through their pain, what would you say to them? Jesus is our healer, Yeah. 198 00:18:26,45.0214663 --> 00:18:29,10.0214663 Men and women will fail us. 199 00:18:29,678.1638152 --> 00:18:30,698.1638152 But that doesn't mean that. 200 00:18:31,833.1638152 --> 00:18:33,423.1638152 We are called to live in isolation. 201 00:18:33,423.1638152 --> 00:18:36,243.1638152 You can't obey the scriptures and you can't follow Jesus. 202 00:18:36,243.1638152 --> 00:18:39,63.1638152 You can't be his disciple in isolation. 203 00:18:39,166.1638152 --> 00:18:39,436.1638152 Sure. 204 00:18:39,963.1638152 --> 00:18:47,220.738317 There's, so many of the commandments that are the plural, second person, plural you, and as much as you may want to. 205 00:18:48,810.738317 --> 00:18:51,480.738317 And as much as you may want to say, okay, you know what, I'm okay. 206 00:18:51,930.738317 --> 00:18:55,140.738317 Jesus, you're the only one I'm gonna trust in and maybe my spouse too. 207 00:18:55,860.738317 --> 00:18:59,790.738317 That's not how God created us to be. 208 00:19:00,10.738317 --> 00:19:02,350.738317 Yes, he is our greatest. 209 00:19:02,770.738317 --> 00:19:11,890.738317 Form of security and safety and wholeness, but he's also our source of joy and transformation, and he calls us to be with one another. 210 00:19:12,820.738317 --> 00:19:19,720.738317 as much as it's easy, and, for many years I was in this place where I wasn't gonna trust another person again. 211 00:19:20,680.738317 --> 00:19:28,270.738317 or maybe it would be this sort of, I will trust you as much as I need to, but I'm not truly going to be vulnerable and be myself. 212 00:19:28,677.4049837 --> 00:19:31,197.4049837 Man, that's such a lonely road to walk on. 213 00:19:32,215.4049837 --> 00:19:32,545.4049837 Yeah. 214 00:19:32,637.4049837 --> 00:19:35,782.4049837 And sometimes we do that because we just don't want to get hurt again. 215 00:19:36,732.0095701 --> 00:19:47,385.0095701 But when you look at James chapter one, and you look at the way that trials and tribulations and, hardships are actually the stuff of life that God uses to form Yeah. 216 00:19:47,782.0095701 --> 00:19:56,902.0095701 We realize that this, the hermeneutic of living from our world is take an Advil, right? Take a Tylenol if you're a headache. 217 00:19:56,902.0095701 --> 00:19:59,525.0095701 And I'm not, I'm not against Advil and Tylenol Shit. 218 00:19:59,722.0095701 --> 00:20:04,372.0095701 that, but the, message of our world is live a pain-free life. 219 00:20:04,605.0095701 --> 00:20:04,895.0095701 Yeah. 220 00:20:05,248.7058931 --> 00:20:08,578.7058931 but God, actually, that's the, pain is the stuff. 221 00:20:08,578.7058931 --> 00:20:16,798.7058931 Suffering is the stuff, the raw material in which God that God uses to shape us into his image. 222 00:20:17,126.7058931 --> 00:20:17,306.7058931 yeah. 223 00:20:17,576.7058931 --> 00:20:19,556.7058931 and I, think, so often. 224 00:20:20,156.7058931 --> 00:20:24,476.7058931 That pain-free mentality can enter into the gospel that we preach as well. 225 00:20:26,36.7058931 --> 00:20:32,276.7058931 we we might not as evangelicals preach like health, wealth and prosperity too often. 226 00:20:32,483.3725597 --> 00:20:38,93.3725597 But we do say almost unintentionally we say, come to Jesus that everything will be all right. 227 00:20:38,425.3725597 --> 00:20:38,940.3725597 Yeah, totally. 228 00:20:40,313.3725597 --> 00:20:44,813.3725597 And, I think that invite that you're giving us is really helpful. 229 00:20:44,813.3725597 --> 00:20:48,293.3725597 So thank you so much for sharing a bit about your yourself. 230 00:20:48,293.3725597 --> 00:20:57,3.3725597 And I, really feel like it helps frame the, frame this conversation because you're not coming into this conversation as a church expert with a lot of opinions. 231 00:20:57,3.3725597 --> 00:21:00,213.3725597 But you're coming in raw and real. 232 00:21:00,813.3725597 --> 00:21:04,733.3725597 And, so I would love to, to kick us off talking about the church for a moment. 233 00:21:04,772.3388361 --> 00:21:05,732.3388361 you have. 234 00:21:05,949.0055028 --> 00:21:08,289.0055028 Ministered in multiple countries. 235 00:21:08,289.0055028 --> 00:21:15,969.0055028 We've discussed that, you have ministered in multiple churches, been exposed to many through your time in, the us. 236 00:21:16,459.0055028 --> 00:21:21,469.0055028 I would love to hear how, your view on the church has shifted. 237 00:21:21,839.0055028 --> 00:21:27,299.0055028 When you felt called to ministry, entered in, you had a perspective of what the church was and what it meant to be a pastor. 238 00:21:27,629.0055028 --> 00:21:41,384.1721695 How has that shifted now as you are now multiple years into your journey? there's probably something to do with being in your twenties and being ambitious and wanting to make a name for yourself. 239 00:21:42,254.1721695 --> 00:21:43,394.1721695 never say it like that. 240 00:21:43,782.1721695 --> 00:21:44,22.1721695 Yeah. 241 00:21:44,84.1721695 --> 00:21:45,704.1721695 and for so long I was like. 242 00:21:45,969.1721695 --> 00:21:49,629.1721695 Oh God, I wanna, I want to have a huge kingdom impact for you. 243 00:21:50,319.1721695 --> 00:22:02,799.1721695 I want to do great things for You like William Carey, I just wanna, Hudson Taylor, and you have all these missionaries as Billy Graham, and you have this sense of, okay, God, I wanna do incredible things for you. 244 00:22:02,799.1721695 --> 00:22:05,739.1721695 So there's this sense of, okay, go up into the right. 245 00:22:05,889.1721695 --> 00:22:08,659.1721695 Bigger is better and, you just. 246 00:22:08,864.1721695 --> 00:22:12,164.1721695 Live in this mentality of, okay, this is how it is in the world. 247 00:22:12,164.1721695 --> 00:22:16,494.1721695 This is the part of the air that we breathe water that we're swimming in. 248 00:22:16,494.1721695 --> 00:22:26,154.1721695 So when it comes to ministry, of course, if you're fruitful and if you're faithful, then God is gonna entrust you with he? And, and then that means. 249 00:22:26,279.1721695 --> 00:22:29,639.1721695 Bigger churches and bigger impact and bigger roles. 250 00:22:30,449.1721695 --> 00:22:35,687.1721695 And, I'm not saying this is true, right? But this is, this was my mindset in my twenties Yeah. 251 00:22:35,879.1721695 --> 00:22:47,819.1721695 and it was interesting how God used even our time in Korea to strip everything away, And, to say, okay, what is most important for you? Am I. 252 00:22:48,249.1721695 --> 00:22:53,559.1721695 Most important for you, or is doing great things most important for you. 253 00:22:54,292.1721695 --> 00:22:54,562.1721695 Yeah. 254 00:22:54,699.1721695 --> 00:23:09,99.1721695 when you think about the idea of Mary and Martha and you think about this idea of, are we being with Jesus or are we doing for Jesus? Do we know Jesus or we do, we just know about Jesus. 255 00:23:09,159.1721695 --> 00:23:12,639.1721695 So one of my friends in Nashville, Kevin Queen, he's a pastor there. 256 00:23:12,879.1721695 --> 00:23:15,684.1721695 I love him dearly and, I remember as he was. 257 00:23:16,449.1721695 --> 00:23:21,219.1721695 A part of Christina's and my journey to come back to Canada and discerning all of that. 258 00:23:21,549.1721695 --> 00:23:32,829.1721695 I remember him saying that he came to a point in his life where he realized, Hey, what if instead of doing great things for God, we just started doing things for a great God. 259 00:23:33,924.1721695 --> 00:23:36,264.1721695 And what I love about that statement is that. 260 00:23:36,969.1721695 --> 00:23:54,757.1721695 a sense sums up my last 19 years of vocational ministry going from just striving to do great things for God, which was really a sanctified way of me and my ego, and me trying to make a name for myself, Yeah. 261 00:23:54,848.1721695 --> 00:23:56,708.1721695 to the point where I even wrote a. 262 00:23:58,253.1721695 --> 00:23:58,523.1721695 Okay. 263 00:23:58,523.1721695 --> 00:24:01,56.1721695 Robert Clinton, the Making of a Leader is Yeah. 264 00:24:01,523.1721695 --> 00:24:01,913.1721695 book. 265 00:24:02,93.1721695 --> 00:24:13,163.1721695 I went to Fuller for my masters and we had to study his material in depth, and I love the journey of leadership that he's research-based journey of leadership, Christian leadership that he's laid out. 266 00:24:13,677.7325691 --> 00:24:21,42.7325691 But unfortunately, one of my assignments in processing all that material was to create my own timeline of ministry, I then did. 267 00:24:21,792.7325691 --> 00:24:28,242.7325691 And it ended at 80, which I don't know why it ended at 80, I was like, I guess I'm gonna be dead at 80. 268 00:24:28,242.7325691 --> 00:24:28,692.7325691 I don't know. 269 00:24:28,812.7325691 --> 00:24:31,170.7325691 Not to say that I, I don't believe that for all Yeah. 270 00:24:31,332.7325691 --> 00:24:35,472.7325691 plus, but for some reason I just couldn't think of life past 80. 271 00:24:35,532.7325691 --> 00:24:43,182.7325691 And I thought I'd come up with this incredible of life and ministry that was gonna be honoring to God. 272 00:24:43,844.4816796 --> 00:24:47,504.4816796 And then a couple years after that, I just sensed God saying, throw it away. 273 00:24:48,257.4816796 --> 00:24:48,627.4816796 Wow. 274 00:24:49,349.4816796 --> 00:24:49,737.4816796 And Yeah. 275 00:24:49,799.4816796 --> 00:24:50,99.4816796 don't know. 276 00:24:50,249.4816796 --> 00:24:53,99.4816796 I'm a, I'm strategic on the StrengthsFinder. 277 00:24:53,129.4816796 --> 00:24:55,49.4816796 I love planning. 278 00:24:55,49.4816796 --> 00:24:57,329.4816796 I want to be intentional. 279 00:24:57,689.4816796 --> 00:25:00,509.4816796 Or, and I just felt God saying, throw it away. 280 00:25:01,372.4816796 --> 00:25:01,572.4816796 Sure. 281 00:25:01,889.4816796 --> 00:25:12,689.4816796 then, I'd have to say, since throwing it away, the next, what, 12 or 13 years, I've prob I've probably experienced more things in my life. 282 00:25:13,444.6103872 --> 00:25:26,314.6103872 Not from an earthly sense, but from a kingdom sense of I've, been able to participate in more things than I in 13 years than I ever thought experience in 80 years. 283 00:25:26,822.6103872 --> 00:25:27,152.6103872 Yeah. 284 00:25:27,784.6103872 --> 00:25:35,344.6103872 And it's this journey of saying, okay, God, I am done trying to, make, do great things for you. 285 00:25:35,674.6103872 --> 00:25:38,584.6103872 'cause I know what great things mean. 286 00:25:39,40.9447098 --> 00:25:40,180.9447098 I'm too. 287 00:25:40,721.7750782 --> 00:25:44,459.7750782 I am too influenced by the ways the world and the Yeah. 288 00:25:44,531.7750782 --> 00:25:47,261.7750782 world that I just want to be faithful. 289 00:25:47,291.7750782 --> 00:25:48,144.7750782 God, Yeah. 290 00:25:49,61.7750782 --> 00:25:52,149.7750782 to me today, I want to be faithful and I want to Yeah. 291 00:25:52,421.7750782 --> 00:25:54,761.7750782 before you in my all and my everything. 292 00:25:54,761.7750782 --> 00:25:57,881.7750782 And it's been neat to shifted and shaped my life. 293 00:25:57,881.7750782 --> 00:25:59,561.7750782 I never thought I'd come back to Canada. 294 00:26:00,191.7750782 --> 00:26:01,931.7750782 never thought I'd be a lead pastor. 295 00:26:02,651.7750782 --> 00:26:05,981.7750782 being a part of Lausanne in the way that I've. 296 00:26:06,56.7750782 --> 00:26:10,616.7750782 I had the opportunity to, in the last couple years has just been such a joy, so yeah. 297 00:26:11,336.7750782 --> 00:26:11,606.7750782 Yeah. 298 00:26:11,666.7750782 --> 00:26:12,236.7750782 Be faithful. 299 00:26:13,155.7750782 --> 00:26:13,905.7750782 thank you, Dana. 300 00:26:13,905.7750782 --> 00:26:15,45.7750782 I really appreciate that. 301 00:26:15,45.7750782 --> 00:26:26,681.186134 I think especially as a younger leader, I, read Robert Clinton's book myself and I, believe even in, in his book, he spoke about being faithful with the little so that you could be faithful with much. 302 00:26:27,64.2765113 --> 00:26:29,584.2765113 but the challenge for me as a younger leader. 303 00:26:30,534.2765113 --> 00:26:38,957.6000952 and for those who are even younger than myself in their twenties going into their thirties, I think that challenge of, oh, don't strive to do great things for God. 304 00:26:38,957.6000952 --> 00:26:42,197.6000952 Rather be faithful where God has placed you. 305 00:26:42,917.6000952 --> 00:26:44,967.6000952 And, even that perspective is helpful. 306 00:26:45,537.6000952 --> 00:26:46,917.6000952 so I truly appreciate that. 307 00:26:46,917.6000952 --> 00:26:50,607.6000952 I, I wanna dive into one of the, things that you brought up. 308 00:26:50,881.1511922 --> 00:27:12,738.5428662 you mentioned Maybe not directly, but you mentioned this attractional church model that many of us as evangelicals have been influenced by, I think it primarily came out of the us but this, whole idea of church growth, of church attraction of set like almost setting church up as a city in city on the hill with a light that shines out. 309 00:27:12,738.5428662 --> 00:27:22,132.4602982 Everyone comes in and there's common, statement that I've heard again and again over the years, from Evangelicals, which is healthy things always grow. 310 00:27:23,422.4602982 --> 00:27:37,934.1512409 And, I've been thinking about that a lot recently because I realized that not all, like that doesn't mean unhealthy things don't grow as well, right? cancer grows and we see, we can keep going down there, but, I would love to chat about. 311 00:27:38,295.2827226 --> 00:27:41,895.2827226 the attractional church model and just the assumptions that come into that. 312 00:27:41,895.2827226 --> 00:27:53,857.5042688 How are you reexamining that as a pastor and reapplying that into your own church? How do you adapt the good, take the good things and maybe get rid of the bad things? I'd love just to, hear your insights on that. 313 00:27:53,941.0042688 --> 00:28:04,141.0042688 when I was writing my last book, the Discipleship Opportunity, was doing this literature review on church growth books, but not the ones that were written about the church growth in the last five, 10 years. 314 00:28:04,561.0042688 --> 00:28:12,481.0042688 But I was going back 70 years and reading the, books written in the fifties and the sixties and the seventies, just trying to discern. 315 00:28:12,931.0042688 --> 00:28:15,954.0042688 What of this still exists today, but in a Yeah. 316 00:28:15,991.0042688 --> 00:28:16,471.0042688 form. 317 00:28:17,24.0042688 --> 00:28:17,314.0042688 Yeah. 318 00:28:17,341.0042688 --> 00:28:28,441.0042688 Jason, how you said healthy things grow because that is the modern day version of what used to be a shrinking church is a sinning church. 319 00:28:29,204.0042688 --> 00:28:29,594.0042688 Wow. 320 00:28:29,641.0042688 --> 00:28:30,554.0042688 That's not Okay. 321 00:28:30,769.0042688 --> 00:28:31,59.0042688 Yeah. 322 00:28:31,169.0042688 --> 00:28:31,459.0042688 Yeah. 323 00:28:31,711.0042688 --> 00:28:35,99.0042688 who came up with it, but this was, the MO that one of the Yes. 324 00:28:35,101.0042688 --> 00:28:40,801.0042688 growth fathers, he was like, shrink a shrinking church is a sinning church. 325 00:28:41,10.0042688 --> 00:28:46,225.0042688 Or you as a pastor are a sinner and you're not doing the right things. 326 00:28:46,225.0042688 --> 00:28:48,162.0042688 You're not just hundred percent. 327 00:28:48,342.0042688 --> 00:28:48,835.0042688 Like the Yeah. 328 00:28:49,182.0042688 --> 00:28:53,892.0042688 that you feel when and pastors, whether you admit to doing this or not. 329 00:28:54,72.0042688 --> 00:29:02,352.0042688 Every week you're looking at how many people are there and you're looking at the giving, and you're looking at serving and, whether you place your identity in those metrics or not. 330 00:29:02,352.0042688 --> 00:29:06,615.0042688 That's, I would say, a, growth path Yeah. 331 00:29:06,822.0042688 --> 00:29:10,812.0042688 continually not look to those things and say that this is who I am. 332 00:29:10,812.0042688 --> 00:29:13,362.0042688 But at every, in every pastor's. 333 00:29:13,977.0042688 --> 00:29:14,637.0042688 Journey. 334 00:29:14,637.0042688 --> 00:29:23,307.0042688 There is a season where that is our identity and that is a sense of, we feel great or we feel poorly based on all of those metrics. 335 00:29:23,517.0042688 --> 00:29:35,616.9871576 So every pastor has experienced this sense of, yeah, actually what did I do wrong? there's less people here this week and, every week and, compared to last year, there's less and less people. 336 00:29:35,826.9871576 --> 00:29:43,984.9871576 What, am I doing wrong? Am I sinning? What? And, it's so natural for us to think in that way, even though it's so false and it's Yeah. 337 00:29:44,406.9871576 --> 00:29:45,636.9871576 to think in that way. 338 00:29:46,356.9871576 --> 00:29:50,826.9871576 So going back to your question there, there were two assumptions that I. 339 00:29:51,576.9871576 --> 00:29:59,556.9871576 I found that still exists today from the church growth movement, and it's the assumptions, of course, church and of course growth. 340 00:30:00,396.9871576 --> 00:30:05,886.9871576 And it's this assumption to say, oh, yeah, okay, of course people are gonna say yes to church. 341 00:30:06,996.9871576 --> 00:30:07,596.9871576 of course. 342 00:30:07,596.9871576 --> 00:30:09,636.9871576 Everyone's interested in the church. 343 00:30:09,636.9871576 --> 00:30:10,776.9871576 Of course. 344 00:30:10,836.9871576 --> 00:30:18,999.9871576 And there's just this assumption that, that of people are gonna say yes to church and of course, growth, right? Because healthy things grow, Yeah. 345 00:30:19,206.9871576 --> 00:30:20,436.9871576 right? Health of course. 346 00:30:20,706.9871576 --> 00:30:29,376.9871576 and any time we came up against a, differing picture on both of those assumptions, we either wrote it off as a one-off. 347 00:30:29,726.9871576 --> 00:30:33,926.9871576 Or we wrote it off as, yeah, as that exception rather than the norm. 348 00:30:34,46.9871576 --> 00:30:37,946.9871576 And two assumptions that I still say heavily affect us today. 349 00:30:38,333.4871576 --> 00:30:57,905.4871576 So how have you tried to overcome those assumptions in your own ministry and your own pastoral work? Yeah, so it, it's interesting 'cause when you look at the church growth movement, these two assumptions, of course, church and of course growth actually fed into our belief that there are only two types of people in our world. 350 00:30:59,140.4871576 --> 00:31:03,503.4871576 There are those who are Christian and there are those who are not yet Christian, but of Yeah. 351 00:31:03,580.4871576 --> 00:31:11,260.4871576 are gonna say yes to and, maybe they said no to church thus far, but it's because they didn't experience church my way. 352 00:31:12,340.4871576 --> 00:31:17,560.4871576 They didn't experience it with this great music or with my incredible preaching or they just didn't. 353 00:31:17,575.4871576 --> 00:31:21,745.4871576 Experienced church in the right way yet, but one day they will. 354 00:31:21,835.4871576 --> 00:31:24,793.4871576 When they get my invite, I'm being facetious here, huh. 355 00:31:25,15.4871576 --> 00:31:30,985.4871576 but there's this sense of, there, there's this belief, of course, okay, there's, Christians and there's non-Christians. 356 00:31:31,165.4871576 --> 00:31:42,363.4871576 So what ended up happening was, and this is a huge thing that happened in the Attractional Church, we felt like it was our responsibility to create interest in Sure. 357 00:31:44,50.4871576 --> 00:31:54,940.4871576 to make Jesus interesting again, in a sense, to make church cool again, to make Christianity compelling, relevant. 358 00:31:54,940.4871576 --> 00:31:55,963.4871576 And we thought it was Yeah. 359 00:31:56,770.4871576 --> 00:31:57,100.4871576 to do that. 360 00:31:57,130.4871576 --> 00:32:04,510.4871576 'cause we thought, Hey, there's non-Christians and there's Christians, and here's technical way that we thought, of it in this way. 361 00:32:04,510.4871576 --> 00:32:06,430.4871576 It was the, it's something called the angle skill. 362 00:32:07,225.4871576 --> 00:32:07,833.4871576 And the Okay. 363 00:32:08,5.4871576 --> 00:32:08,725.4871576 I'm not throwing it. 364 00:32:09,223.4871576 --> 00:32:18,196.2917983 I the angle skill 'cause it's a beautiful picture of someone's journey God to faith in Christ. 365 00:32:19,156.2917983 --> 00:32:25,486.2917983 this angle scale where at one point there was this moment of conversion is this sense where there, there's some. 366 00:32:26,146.2917983 --> 00:32:33,676.2917983 Folks in our world who are non-Christian and there are others who are Christian, and we just thought simply it was our responsibility to, to create interest. 367 00:32:33,676.2917983 --> 00:32:40,529.2917983 But what's fascinating is it's always been the Holy Spirit that, that, that did that in people's lives, Yeah. 368 00:32:40,666.2917983 --> 00:32:54,466.2917983 right? It's always like the Holy Spirit has always been better and we thought that we were the ones that caused interest or, helped someone go across the line of faith, it was always the Holy Spirit. 369 00:32:54,880.6395572 --> 00:33:14,640.6395572 I think the thing that stood out to me as you were speaking, had to do with this idea that pastors and ministry leaders, I'm also taking this away from just the local church because it also goes down to our evangelism efforts as through different ministries and Parachurch Ministries, is we almost became like marketing firms and salespeople. 370 00:33:14,940.6395572 --> 00:33:20,770.6395572 Like we felt the need to, sell the gospel and make the gospel perhaps something even. 371 00:33:21,50.6395572 --> 00:33:25,520.6395572 Of what it isn't because parts of the true gospel aren't actually attractional. 372 00:33:26,540.6395572 --> 00:33:35,900.6395572 The fact that I have to lay down my life, the fact that I might not necessarily get to choose whether I'm a pastor or not, and the, the journeys that we go through. 373 00:33:36,457.3062239 --> 00:33:38,707.3062239 and I appreciate the fact that you're focusing in. 374 00:33:39,492.3062239 --> 00:33:46,899.097182 Particularly now in and through your book, you, mentioned this idea of focusing in on the people who are already interested. 375 00:33:47,199.097182 --> 00:33:56,139.2638487 And so could you take a moment just to speak into that and, share maybe those four paradigms with our audience so that they can maybe get a taste of that? it's so interesting to think about. 376 00:33:57,49.2638487 --> 00:34:01,579.2638487 Our world and the people in our churches and the people in our communities in this way. 377 00:34:01,979.2638487 --> 00:34:17,9.2638487 Because for those who are listening, there's this quadrant that I create in the book where on the one on the horizontal axis, we have non-Christians and Christians, and on the vertical axis we have the uninterested and the interested. 378 00:34:17,399.2638487 --> 00:34:23,682.2638487 So if you think about those who are uninterested non-Christians, they're the ones who are sleepers, Yeah. 379 00:34:23,699.2638487 --> 00:34:24,689.2638487 are spiritually sleep. 380 00:34:24,689.2638487 --> 00:34:25,739.2638487 They're not Christian. 381 00:34:26,94.2638487 --> 00:34:31,824.2638487 They don't, know and they're not interested in anything beyond the here and now. 382 00:34:32,604.2638487 --> 00:34:40,194.2638487 And then we have those who are uninterested Christians, who are the consumers, they know they're Christian, but they're uninterested in living. 383 00:34:41,129.2638487 --> 00:34:42,299.2638487 all in their everything for God. 384 00:34:42,329.2638487 --> 00:34:48,219.2638487 Maybe they were sold this different gospel of a gospel where Jesus says, come and die. 385 00:34:48,742.2638487 --> 00:34:48,982.2638487 Yeah. 386 00:34:48,999.2638487 --> 00:34:51,99.2638487 this gospel of come and be comfortable. 387 00:34:51,159.2638487 --> 00:34:56,959.2638487 Come and find find a, an escape hatch from this whole life. 388 00:34:57,289.2638487 --> 00:35:03,109.2638487 And they're not interested in living as disciples and disciple makers, these consumers. 389 00:35:03,319.2638487 --> 00:35:05,959.2638487 And then you have the interested non-Christians. 390 00:35:06,289.2638487 --> 00:35:14,269.2638487 Who are the seekers, those who are not Christian, but they are interested, they are seeking after the things of God. 391 00:35:14,539.2638487 --> 00:35:19,909.2638487 And then you have those who are interested Christians, who are the disciples, right? So I'll give you, I'll give you a picture. 392 00:35:19,909.2638487 --> 00:35:27,719.2638487 There's this lady by the name Jodi, who at, one point and, as a non-Christian was living. 393 00:35:28,649.2638487 --> 00:35:38,189.2638487 just living in addiction, living away from God, not wanting to do and wanting to have anything to do with God, but through a series of circumstances. 394 00:35:38,379.2638487 --> 00:35:45,519.2638487 she came to a moment where she was more, she moved from being a sleeper to a seeker, but she didn't know what she was seeking for. 395 00:35:45,909.2638487 --> 00:35:54,39.2638487 When you do the 12 step program, there is a sense of acknowledging that there is a higher power, but who is it and what is that? And, there's. 396 00:35:54,234.2638487 --> 00:35:55,104.2638487 Seeking that happened. 397 00:35:55,104.2638487 --> 00:36:02,784.2638487 So I remember her telling me this story where she picked up the phone and called the number on her prescription bottle 'cause she needed a refill. 398 00:36:03,262.7767987 --> 00:36:05,962.7767987 And when she called that number it rang up. 399 00:36:06,412.7767987 --> 00:36:07,432.7767987 BAH Alliance Church. 400 00:36:08,152.7767987 --> 00:36:15,462.7767987 She's this what, this is supposed to be my drug store, like I my pharmacy, right? so she's okay. 401 00:36:15,462.7767987 --> 00:36:21,402.7767987 She hung up and she called it again the number on the prescription bottle, and it was like, bah, Alliance Church. 402 00:36:22,602.7767987 --> 00:36:30,972.7767987 and she, didn't know what to make of she really needed a prescription, or she needed it filled. 403 00:36:30,972.7767987 --> 00:36:32,982.7767987 But she came to this place where she was like, okay. 404 00:36:34,382.7767987 --> 00:36:38,192.7767987 maybe, this is a sign from God that I'm supposed to go to this church. 405 00:36:38,252.7767987 --> 00:36:38,702.7767987 I don't know. 406 00:36:39,632.7767987 --> 00:36:42,842.7767987 So she called it up again and, it rang up Bah Alliance Church. 407 00:36:43,22.7767987 --> 00:36:48,182.7767987 And, so she was like, okay, you know what? I'm gonna go, she still needed to get her prescription filled. 408 00:36:48,745.7767987 --> 00:36:53,462.7767987 Yeah, she called up the number again, and guess what? rang up the pharmacy. 409 00:36:54,172.7767987 --> 00:37:01,252.7767987 Yeah, later on, she compared the number of her pharmacy to Bah's number and is nowhere similar. 410 00:37:01,500.7767987 --> 00:37:01,720.7767987 Wow. 411 00:37:01,762.7767987 --> 00:37:02,902.7767987 not even like one digit off. 412 00:37:02,902.7767987 --> 00:37:06,110.7767987 It is a completely different phone number, Wow. 413 00:37:06,412.7767987 --> 00:37:11,225.7767987 right? Talk about the Holy Spirit stirring people's heart Yeah. 414 00:37:11,242.7767987 --> 00:37:14,842.7767987 she was in that place where she was interested in non-Christian. 415 00:37:14,842.7767987 --> 00:37:15,772.7767987 She's now a Christian. 416 00:37:15,892.7767987 --> 00:37:17,362.7767987 I had the opportunity to baptize her. 417 00:37:17,362.7767987 --> 00:37:23,182.7767987 It was a beautiful story of just how God is moving her or even this other story. 418 00:37:23,977.7767987 --> 00:37:31,537.7767987 I was preaching on, we were walking through the gospel of Mark and I was preaching on the death of John the Baptist. 419 00:37:32,317.7767987 --> 00:37:41,497.7767987 And at the end of the sermon I asked those who are grieving and who are experiencing loss to stand up all around the auditorium. 420 00:37:42,262.7767987 --> 00:37:45,472.7767987 So then they, stood up and I was like, okay, church, family. 421 00:37:45,682.7767987 --> 00:37:54,652.7767987 I want you to extend your hands toward whoever is sitting or stand, whoever is now standing around you, and let's just have a time where you're praying, right? I'm not gonna pray for us. 422 00:37:54,742.7767987 --> 00:37:56,272.7767987 I want you to pray for those. 423 00:37:56,422.7767987 --> 00:37:57,992.7767987 And it's just one of the ways that. 424 00:37:58,927.7767987 --> 00:38:04,417.7767987 is the, in, the discipleship opportunity, the idea of, okay, helping people become self feeders. 425 00:38:04,417.7767987 --> 00:38:14,857.7767987 It's this discipleship journey, right? Equipping rather than doing this show or doing things for people, how do you equip people do to themselves, right? So, I, invited people to do that, and this is the incredible thing that happened. 426 00:38:15,307.7767987 --> 00:38:22,777.7767987 This guy came to me at the end of the service and he was like, Hey, this is my first time in church in 30 years. 427 00:38:23,602.7767987 --> 00:38:24,922.7767987 Or sorry, in 20 years. 428 00:38:24,922.7767987 --> 00:38:37,702.7767987 I moved from Toronto to Edmonton a year ago for work and there's just so much going on in my life that I just, I woke up this morning feeling like I just had to go to a church. 429 00:38:38,422.7767987 --> 00:38:43,185.7767987 He grew up going to a Catholic church going not Catholic church, going to a Catholic school, Okay. 430 00:38:43,232.7767987 --> 00:38:47,42.7767987 and had been 20 years since he had been in any sort of church voluntarily. 431 00:38:47,702.7767987 --> 00:38:52,412.7767987 So that morning he woke up and he googled Catholic churches near me. 432 00:38:53,13.5575423 --> 00:38:53,253.5575423 Okay. 433 00:38:53,373.5575423 --> 00:39:07,714.0863089 Now for everyone who's wait, Daniel's a priest? No I'm a ordained pastor with a Christian and Missionary Alliance, and he googled Catholic churches near me, BAH was the number one search result. 434 00:39:08,627.0863089 --> 00:39:08,847.0863089 Wow. 435 00:39:09,184.0863089 --> 00:39:09,782.0863089 for Yeah. 436 00:39:09,844.0863089 --> 00:39:18,994.0863089 skeptics out there who are like, oh, but Bah's, you know this large church, and you probably did go, probably did Google ad words and you did this. 437 00:39:18,994.0863089 --> 00:39:24,214.0863089 And I was like, no, there's no keyword targeting on Catholic churches or anything like that. 438 00:39:24,304.0863089 --> 00:39:24,604.0863089 No. 439 00:39:24,724.0863089 --> 00:39:29,764.0863089 I, try to repeat what happened and it can't, it doesn't work. 440 00:39:29,764.0863089 --> 00:39:30,604.0863089 It doesn't happen. 441 00:39:30,604.0863089 --> 00:39:31,292.0863089 But Yeah. 442 00:39:31,624.0863089 --> 00:39:32,619.0863089 guy that morning. 443 00:39:33,503.8591442 --> 00:39:35,843.8591442 Look at what God did and how through Google. 444 00:39:35,933.8591442 --> 00:39:40,793.8591442 Now, here's the next level of what happened that I don't yet have a full explanation for. 445 00:39:40,943.8591442 --> 00:40:00,921.0092736 I grew up Presbyterian I'm now a Christian Mission Alliance pastor, here's what happened when the congregation was praying for those who are standing up and he turned around and he thanked the person behind him for praying for him, he said, how did you know what was going on in my life? and the guy was like, I was, I was just praying. 446 00:40:01,281.0092736 --> 00:40:07,667.5222236 And, the story, you know, what ended up happening? The guy behind him was praying in tongues Wow. 447 00:40:07,819.5222236 --> 00:40:08,479.5222236 in front of him. 448 00:40:08,987.7091073 --> 00:40:13,305.7091073 And the guy in front of him heard what he was praying in Beautiful. 449 00:40:13,397.7091073 --> 00:40:13,667.7091073 Okay. 450 00:40:13,757.7091073 --> 00:40:18,6.5966734 So just, so was it a, it was it, a public word? It wasn't a public word. 451 00:40:18,6.5966734 --> 00:40:18,709.5966734 How does Yeah. 452 00:40:18,906.5966734 --> 00:40:33,696.5966734 work? All of that, of where you might stand in that, was beautiful to see The Holy Spirit is, has always been the one people to the synagogue. 453 00:40:34,534.5966734 --> 00:40:34,824.5966734 Yeah. 454 00:40:35,556.5966734 --> 00:40:41,74.5966734 And, these if, I we, if we had another 30, 45 minutes, I could tell you Yeah. 455 00:40:41,856.5966734 --> 00:40:47,376.5966734 of how we don't need to interest for We don't need to advertise. 456 00:40:47,376.5966734 --> 00:40:51,96.5966734 We don't need to market, we don't need to make Jesus interesting. 457 00:40:51,694.5966734 --> 00:40:51,994.5966734 Yeah. 458 00:40:52,296.5966734 --> 00:41:00,276.5966734 anyone who is who we would previously be thinking about when we're thinking about making Jesus interesting, care. 459 00:41:00,996.5966734 --> 00:41:01,716.5966734 don't wanna know. 460 00:41:01,716.5966734 --> 00:41:03,246.5966734 They're not coming to our churches. 461 00:41:03,246.5966734 --> 00:41:03,966.5966734 They're not. 462 00:41:04,206.5966734 --> 00:41:05,496.5966734 They are the uninterested. 463 00:41:05,496.5966734 --> 00:41:06,456.5966734 They're the sleepers. 464 00:41:06,846.5966734 --> 00:41:08,406.5966734 And they're the consumers. 465 00:41:08,646.5966734 --> 00:41:13,356.5966734 So the whole paradigm around the book is okay, but God is awakening people. 466 00:41:13,626.5966734 --> 00:41:15,756.5966734 Jesus is going after the one. 467 00:41:16,626.5966734 --> 00:41:22,926.5966734 are folks in our communities and our churches who are interested non-Christians and interested Christians. 468 00:41:23,226.5966734 --> 00:41:33,760.7322016 So what would it look like if we actually focused on the interested, which means we're ministering to both those who are Christian and not this either or paradigm anymore. 469 00:41:34,438.7322016 --> 00:41:34,748.7322016 Yeah. 470 00:41:34,795.7322016 --> 00:41:40,165.7322016 not just a church that's focused on evangelism or a church that's just focused on discipleship. 471 00:41:41,155.7322016 --> 00:41:48,625.7322016 Those focused just on non-Christians or Christians? No, we can actually reach both when we focus on this paradigm of the interested. 472 00:41:49,138.6465978 --> 00:41:58,708.6465978 Yeah, and I appreciate that nuance that you mentioned at the end there, because what I would, hate for people to hear from you is that you're not about proclaiming Jesus. 473 00:41:58,708.6465978 --> 00:42:01,168.6465978 That is, that's not what you're talking about here. 474 00:42:01,798.6465978 --> 00:42:03,28.6465978 you're just talking about. 475 00:42:03,278.6465978 --> 00:42:14,678.6465978 The heart, and maybe it goes back to your story of David, but the heart of a leader, God sees the hearts and it's through a life that has been surrendered to the Lord. 476 00:42:14,678.6465978 --> 00:42:18,968.6465978 A church that has been surrendered to the Lord and willing not to. 477 00:42:19,463.6465978 --> 00:42:27,593.6465978 Even put on a show, I don't wanna put words in your mouth, but, seeking the Holy Spirit's move beyond what we can manufacture. 478 00:42:27,593.6465978 --> 00:42:35,72.7604912 And I've been thinking a lot during this interview about a w Tozer and I have no idea why, but he often used to speak about. 479 00:42:35,737.7604912 --> 00:42:37,597.7604912 Making much of Jesus. 480 00:42:37,777.7604912 --> 00:42:44,347.7604912 And as we make much of Christ, the Holy Spirit is, he makes himself known. 481 00:42:44,747.7604912 --> 00:42:46,449.6292833 and that's what I'm hearing from you. 482 00:42:46,989.6292833 --> 00:42:49,811.6292833 am I articulating right? What I'm hearing from you, Yeah, a hundred percent. 483 00:42:49,811.6292833 --> 00:42:58,654.6292833 And Towser is the all and a great, perhaps? Alliance theologian, right? I loved a w Towser, but there is this sense, where Yeah. 484 00:42:59,291.6292833 --> 00:43:08,741.6292833 imagine the relief and the burden that we are, said, take up my yolk upon you, learn from me. 485 00:43:09,431.6292833 --> 00:43:13,601.6292833 But there's this sense where we have felt such a burden. 486 00:43:14,351.6292833 --> 00:43:21,204.6292833 To grow our churches, to be relevant, Yeah. 487 00:43:21,611.6292833 --> 00:43:25,121.6292833 make a name for ourselves right there. 488 00:43:25,121.6292833 --> 00:43:38,69.6292833 I love how Henry now and talks about the temptations of Jesus, the three temptations as being a temptation to be relevant, and I forget the last one in this Yeah. 489 00:43:38,141.6292833 --> 00:43:40,661.6292833 there's a sense where, these are those temptations. 490 00:43:41,471.6292833 --> 00:43:43,811.6292833 That we still experience today. 491 00:43:44,544.6292833 --> 00:43:44,814.6292833 Yeah. 492 00:43:45,671.6292833 --> 00:43:52,493.7489949 where, Jesus is saying, Hey, even when you thought you were the ones bringing people into the church, you weren't. 493 00:43:53,324.5270094 --> 00:43:57,957.5270094 Right? So what would it look like if we fully relinquished that to Yeah. 494 00:43:58,682.5270094 --> 00:43:58,972.5270094 Yeah. 495 00:43:59,684.5270094 --> 00:44:08,907.5270094 and instead of preaching to people who aren't actually there in our context? What if we preach to those who are there Yeah. 496 00:44:09,164.5270094 --> 00:44:11,234.5270094 and the seekers. 497 00:44:11,234.5270094 --> 00:44:13,604.5270094 We don't need to dumb down things for the seekers. 498 00:44:13,604.5270094 --> 00:44:17,564.5270094 The non-interested, the, interest in non-Christians because they're there. 499 00:44:17,564.5270094 --> 00:44:19,214.5270094 'cause they're actively seeking. 500 00:44:19,477.4049601 --> 00:44:25,147.9226659 there's this teenager who came to our church a couple months ago no one in her family's Christian. 501 00:44:25,567.9226659 --> 00:44:25,987.9226659 No one. 502 00:44:26,55.5578991 --> 00:44:43,325.9893702 and she had some friends who were Christian and she was interested and, she was like, oh, I wonder what the, is that all about? And she started looking up some YouTube videos about Christianity then she said, why not? everyone in her family is their atheist. 503 00:44:44,118.9893702 --> 00:44:44,448.9893702 Wow. 504 00:44:46,475.9893702 --> 00:44:47,585.9893702 I should probably go to church. 505 00:44:47,615.9893702 --> 00:44:50,345.9893702 Oh, look, there's the church across the street from where I live. 506 00:44:50,345.9893702 --> 00:44:50,405.9893702 Bah. 507 00:44:51,65.9893702 --> 00:44:52,145.9893702 So I'm gonna go there. 508 00:44:52,145.9893702 --> 00:44:54,965.9893702 And then she came up to me a couple months after and says, I wanna get baptized. 509 00:44:56,45.9893702 --> 00:44:57,545.9893702 I didn't know she was there. 510 00:44:57,545.9893702 --> 00:45:00,875.9893702 But look at what Jesus was doing in her and her life. 511 00:45:01,85.9893702 --> 00:45:01,698.9893702 When Yeah. 512 00:45:01,805.9893702 --> 00:45:07,915.9893702 the word, when we In a way that makes much of Jesus, that brings glory to him. 513 00:45:08,468.9893702 --> 00:45:08,798.9893702 Yeah. 514 00:45:09,205.9893702 --> 00:45:10,765.9893702 he's moving in people's hearts. 515 00:45:11,350.0624773 --> 00:45:18,310.0624773 Daniel, this, conversation has been so great that we've missed out on, on most of the questions that I sent to you in, in, in preparation. 516 00:45:18,733.3958106 --> 00:45:22,363.3958106 I would love for us not to miss the opportunity to chat to you about discipleship. 517 00:45:22,813.7539468 --> 00:45:27,408.7539468 and so in the last few minutes that we have to together want to bring to you. 518 00:45:27,683.7539468 --> 00:45:32,843.7539468 One of the Lausanne is a fourfold vision, as you may know, and for, as some of the listeners may know. 519 00:45:32,843.7539468 --> 00:45:40,133.7539468 And one part of the fourfold vision is, data disciple making churches for every people in place. 520 00:45:40,133.7539468 --> 00:45:46,193.7539468 This is a vision at the heart of the Lausanne movement to see disciple making churches for every people in place. 521 00:45:47,33.7539468 --> 00:45:55,195.7539468 And, I want to hear from you as a pastor, like what, what comes to your heart and mind when you hear that statement? yeah. 522 00:45:55,195.7539468 --> 00:45:55,205.7539468 Yeah. 523 00:45:55,990.7539468 --> 00:45:56,470.7539468 love that. 524 00:45:56,560.7539468 --> 00:46:01,690.7539468 So the vision at Beah, our church is awakening greater Edmonton to King Jesus. 525 00:46:02,513.7539468 --> 00:46:02,803.7539468 Okay. 526 00:46:03,280.7539468 --> 00:46:06,213.7539468 it's not a vision to bring people into our church, it's to see Wow. 527 00:46:06,340.7539468 --> 00:46:08,350.7539468 in greater Edmonton awakened to him. 528 00:46:09,310.7539468 --> 00:46:18,765.3965179 And what we talk about in our church is the only way that we are going to fulfill our vision to see everyone in greater Edmonton awaken to him. 529 00:46:19,433.3365146 --> 00:46:24,383.3365146 By equipping everyone in our church be to be disciples who make disciples. 530 00:46:24,556.3365146 --> 00:46:24,876.3365146 Sure. 531 00:46:25,703.3365146 --> 00:46:31,13.3365146 We don't have enough room in our four campuses to fit all 1.6 532 00:46:31,13.3365146 --> 00:46:32,183.3365146 million people. 533 00:46:32,826.3365146 --> 00:46:33,66.3365146 Yeah. 534 00:46:33,323.3365146 --> 00:46:36,443.3365146 we are a church and we love planting campuses, and that's our vision. 535 00:46:36,443.3365146 --> 00:46:39,608.3365146 But we can't plant enough campuses to reach 1.6 536 00:46:39,608.3365146 --> 00:46:40,643.3365146 million people. 537 00:46:41,693.3365146 --> 00:46:45,953.3365146 But what we can do is if every single person in our church. 538 00:46:47,3.3365146 --> 00:46:57,623.3365146 Is actively a disciple who makes disciples, and they're making disciples with those to whom they live, work, study, and play with to people who would never step foot in one of our campuses. 539 00:46:58,13.3365146 --> 00:46:59,843.3365146 But they are working with them. 540 00:46:59,843.3365146 --> 00:47:01,493.3365146 They're in their neighborhoods with them. 541 00:47:01,493.3365146 --> 00:47:10,553.3365146 They're going to school with them, and they're disciples who make disciples where they are, the ones that God is using to awaken those who are around them. 542 00:47:11,181.3365146 --> 00:47:11,511.3365146 Yeah. 543 00:47:11,738.3365146 --> 00:47:14,978.3365146 that's how the Great Commission gets some movement and traction. 544 00:47:14,978.3365146 --> 00:47:17,108.3365146 It's not about bringing them into our church now. 545 00:47:17,378.3365146 --> 00:47:18,668.3365146 Now I'm not anti-church. 546 00:47:18,998.3365146 --> 00:47:24,548.3365146 every disciple needs to be a part of But if our. 547 00:47:25,658.3365146 --> 00:47:33,218.3365146 Our driving emphasis is to first and foremost get people into our churches so that they can then become disciples. 548 00:47:33,428.3365146 --> 00:47:54,608.3365146 I think we're losing out on the movement dynamics that we saw in the early church that we are seeing in many areas in our world, in Iran, in China, in, in so many areas in our world where the church is just booming, right? We're, losing out on this. 549 00:47:55,598.3365146 --> 00:48:03,518.3365146 This, holy dynamic of saying, yeah, you know what, it's, not about, it's not about getting, and, having a bigger building and more attendance. 550 00:48:03,518.3365146 --> 00:48:06,428.3365146 This is about making disciples who make disciples. 551 00:48:06,428.3365146 --> 00:48:07,701.3365146 So this vision Yeah. 552 00:48:07,868.3365146 --> 00:48:15,226.3365146 Lausanne, so close to my heart and it's, a vision that combines discipleship and evangelism in a Yeah. 553 00:48:15,686.3365146 --> 00:48:15,836.3365146 Yeah. 554 00:48:15,836.3365146 --> 00:48:31,306.3365146 So I wanna dig in there for just a moment because I've done this experiment of the course of the past few months as I've engaged with different leaders from all over the place, and especially those who are passionate about this topic of disciple making. 555 00:48:31,456.3365146 --> 00:48:42,871.3365146 And I've asked the question, how do you define discipleship? And the fascinating thing for me has been how almost every single person that I've asked has had a different definition. 556 00:48:42,871.3365146 --> 00:48:49,461.3365146 So we, all have the one thing that unified all of us was the great commission, go and make disciples. 557 00:48:49,891.3365146 --> 00:48:52,921.3365146 and so we have that idea of disciples making disciples. 558 00:48:53,556.3365146 --> 00:49:00,693.9997217 I don't always think that we are talking about the same thing the sense of what a disciple is and what it means to actually make a disciple. 559 00:49:01,323.9997217 --> 00:49:12,123.9997217 So I would be curious to hear from you just your own definition of what it means to, to be a disciple and perhaps what it looks like in Buhler to make a disciple. 560 00:49:12,235.8330551 --> 00:49:12,505.8330551 Yeah. 561 00:49:12,895.833055 --> 00:49:18,988.833055 one of the reasons there's so many different answers to this question how you're looking at it, right? Are you looking at Sure. 562 00:49:19,705.833055 --> 00:49:28,448.833055 sense of, hey, this is a sense of being, right? Are you looking at it from a teleological sense of, okay, what are we then doing? What is the end? Or from a Sure. 563 00:49:28,585.833055 --> 00:49:29,5.8330551 sense. 564 00:49:29,770.833055 --> 00:49:53,530.833055 a substantial sense, right? it's the same thing with the image of How are you looking at what it means to be the imago de? but, for us long story short, I love looking at this from a teleological sense of, okay, what does it mean not only to be a disciple, but to do what Jesus did? when we do what Jesus did. 565 00:49:54,220.833055 --> 00:49:56,470.833055 Th then we're actually spending time with him. 566 00:49:56,500.833055 --> 00:49:57,490.833055 We're being with him. 567 00:49:57,760.833055 --> 00:49:58,870.833055 We're becoming like him. 568 00:49:58,870.833055 --> 00:50:03,190.8330551 There's this sense of connection that we are we are attaching to Jesus. 569 00:50:04,750.833055 --> 00:50:15,280.833055 And so from that sense, at Buelow, we love talking about discipleship In four ways, a disciple of Jesus gathers, grows, gives, and goes together with others. 570 00:50:16,360.833055 --> 00:50:20,920.833055 yeah, I know where you know it iterates and I'm a pastor and I get that. 571 00:50:21,310.833055 --> 00:50:24,803.833055 but there is a sense of memorability that comes Sure. 572 00:50:25,13.833055 --> 00:50:25,373.833055 Yeah. 573 00:50:25,510.833055 --> 00:50:25,690.833055 that. 574 00:50:26,170.833055 --> 00:50:28,120.833055 And, the reason we talk about those four. 575 00:50:29,125.833055 --> 00:50:41,858.833055 Those four pieces we call 'em our practices is because not only are they memorable, but they actually describe in a very simple way, how to be a disciple that makes disciples, Sure. 576 00:50:42,145.833055 --> 00:50:42,385.833055 okay. 577 00:50:42,385.833055 --> 00:50:46,292.4997217 A disciple gathers together disciple grows together. 578 00:50:47,237.4997217 --> 00:50:48,767.4997217 A disciple gives together. 579 00:50:48,767.4997217 --> 00:50:50,207.4997217 A disciple goes together. 580 00:50:50,507.4997217 --> 00:51:01,847.4997217 And those who are familiar with my No Silver Bullets book, it, actually integrates these input goals and the metrics from the research into those four practices, in a way that doesn't sound okay. 581 00:51:02,57.4997217 --> 00:51:03,377.4997217 the research says this, that, and that. 582 00:51:03,377.4997217 --> 00:51:03,977.4997217 No, it's okay. 583 00:51:04,127.4997217 --> 00:51:06,600.4997217 just here's a way of living, a way of Yeah. 584 00:51:06,677.4997217 --> 00:51:09,107.4997217 you look at what Jesus did with his disciples. 585 00:51:09,467.4997217 --> 00:51:14,147.4997217 Did he say, okay, so read this book and then take this exempt. 586 00:51:14,147.4997217 --> 00:51:15,677.4997217 No, he said, just follow me. 587 00:51:16,565.4997217 --> 00:51:16,605.4997217 Yeah. 588 00:51:16,667.4997217 --> 00:51:26,117.4997217 And what did Jesus do with his disciples? He gathered, he grew, he gave, and he went with his So the model that we use at bah. 589 00:51:26,867.4997217 --> 00:51:30,540.4997217 very practical, let's just go and do, and then Yeah. 590 00:51:31,58.833055 --> 00:51:39,878.833055 Yeah, and I wanna take this opportunity just to invite and encourage all those who are listening up to this point to, to go and engage with Daniel's book. 591 00:51:39,943.833055 --> 00:51:43,603.833055 The discipleship opportunity and no silver bullets as well. 592 00:51:43,633.833055 --> 00:51:54,763.833055 If you are interested in discipleship and church and how those integrate together and, diving into the details of, what he's just spoken about, that's, your opportunity. 593 00:51:54,763.833055 --> 00:51:59,383.833055 So I'm going to, I'm gonna connect that in the show notes for all of those who are interested. 594 00:52:00,103.833055 --> 00:52:13,854.833055 and of course you can keep Googling, but, Daniel, where can people connect with you, connect with your resources, maybe other things that you wanna point to them online? Is there any, other place that you'd like to point us? So if you go to my website, Daniel m.com, 595 00:52:13,854.833055 --> 00:52:17,994.8330551 so my last name is two letters I and then m daniel m.com, 596 00:52:17,994.8330551 --> 00:52:20,574.8330551 then you'll see links to all my social media. 597 00:52:20,604.833055 --> 00:52:25,314.833055 I'd love to connect with you on social media and, links to resources and books. 598 00:52:25,374.8330551 --> 00:52:26,904.833055 I'm not writing too. 599 00:52:27,189.833055 --> 00:52:31,329.8330551 Often on my website anymore because I've started a doctoral program. 600 00:52:31,669.833055 --> 00:52:40,39.833055 But there is a, so there's a lot of integration going on in that way, but that, is in a sense, a home for a lot of the links and resources that I have. 601 00:52:40,230.4997217 --> 00:52:40,804.4997217 fantastic. 602 00:52:40,804.4997217 --> 00:52:43,114.4997217 I'm gonna be sure to put that in the show notes. 603 00:52:43,534.4044836 --> 00:52:47,347.737817 Daniel 2 last questions I have for you and then we're gonna close off. 604 00:52:47,737.737817 --> 00:52:50,857.737817 We have a lot to process, but for those ministry leaders. 605 00:52:50,862.737817 --> 00:53:18,24.3044443 Perhaps pastors or perhaps leading within ministry organizations as they're listening and they're asking the question, how do I take my first steps in creating a disciple making culture? What advice would you have for them from your own experience of trying to implement this? If you yourself are not a disciple of Jesus, disciple maker of others, if you yourself are not growing. 606 00:53:18,619.9122935 --> 00:53:31,339.9122935 In your walk with Jesus, you can't create and lead people into, deeper relationship with Jesus and, have a church that makes disciples. 607 00:53:32,102.9122935 --> 00:53:32,342.9122935 Yeah. 608 00:53:32,344.9122935 --> 00:53:33,424.9122935 it's never gonna happen. 609 00:53:33,634.9122935 --> 00:54:14,643.0982346 And I know people say you can't lead people farther than you are, and there's all these other kitchy ways of saying it, but I'm increasingly convinced, even in the doc doctoral work that I'm doing, and in this integration between spiritual formation and brain science there's this sense where if we don't have a deep, intimate connection with Jesus, an attachment to Jesus, how can we lead other people? It's religion, right? if, we don't, if we don't, if, Jesus isn't one that we love and the one that we are cultivating intimacy with, the fact that Jesus said love God and love others. 610 00:54:15,453.0982346 --> 00:54:20,519.7649013 I think sometimes we think, okay, yeah, that's great now, what do I have to do? Yeah. 611 00:54:20,519.7649013 --> 00:54:23,669.7649013 But for so long, I missed the fact. 612 00:54:23,999.7649013 --> 00:54:27,29.7649013 One Corinthians 14, one says, pursue. 613 00:54:28,514.7649013 --> 00:54:31,424.7649013 Pursue love and desire, spiritual gifts. 614 00:54:33,194.7649013 --> 00:54:45,224.7649013 when I did the study around that, pursuing that, that word pursuing for love, and this is the love of God and the love of others, this way that a hunter pursues their pre. 615 00:54:45,966.7117186 --> 00:54:49,446.7117186 Chases after their pre, desire spiritual gifts. 616 00:54:49,656.7117186 --> 00:54:51,694.7117186 It's, a good thing to have and God equips Yeah. 617 00:54:51,906.7117186 --> 00:54:52,236.7117186 with them. 618 00:54:52,236.7117186 --> 00:54:58,49.7117186 But so often in the church, we pursue gifting and we desire love, but love is Yeah. 619 00:54:58,66.7117186 --> 00:54:58,396.7117186 primary. 620 00:54:58,396.7117186 --> 00:55:00,886.7117186 So that would be my, that would be my first and foremost thing. 621 00:55:00,886.7117186 --> 00:55:09,528.9105129 If you have lost your love for Jesus, then open up the word, if you have lost your love for worship. 622 00:55:09,603.9105129 --> 00:55:09,663.9105129 Yeah. 623 00:55:10,233.9105129 --> 00:55:17,613.9105129 Maybe it's just a particular style or, a band or whatever, but, get back to the heart of worship. 624 00:55:18,483.9105129 --> 00:55:20,283.9105129 our King of Kings, our Lord of Lords. 625 00:55:20,283.9105129 --> 00:55:23,763.9105129 Spend time with him because everything else flows from that. 626 00:55:24,235.6616879 --> 00:55:34,825.6616879 Daniel, I actually, I wanna invite you as, we close off this podcast, to, take a moment to actually pray that truth over those who are listening. 627 00:55:35,65.6616879 --> 00:55:38,665.6616879 would you close us off? and before you do, I, just wanna tell you. 628 00:55:39,85.6616879 --> 00:55:43,675.6616879 What a joy it has been having you on the podcast with us, sharing your life, your insights. 629 00:55:43,995.6616879 --> 00:55:51,915.6616879 We could continue much longer than this, but what you've shared with us will, encourage us and, challenge us. 630 00:55:51,975.6616879 --> 00:55:58,395.6616879 And so I would love to invite you just to pray that we would learn to pursue the love of Jesus. 631 00:55:58,647.6616879 --> 00:56:06,583.7339499 So in John 21 when they had eaten breakfast, Jesus asked Simon, Peter Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these? Yes, Lord. 632 00:56:06,583.7339499 --> 00:56:08,143.7339499 He said to him, you know that I love you. 633 00:56:08,900.2558958 --> 00:56:09,740.2558958 Feed my lambs. 634 00:56:09,740.2558958 --> 00:56:15,151.9259236 He told him a second time, he asked him, Simon, son of John, do you love me? Yes Lord. 635 00:56:15,151.9259236 --> 00:56:18,541.9259236 He said to him, you know that I love you, shepherd my sheep. 636 00:56:18,541.9259236 --> 00:56:29,611.9259236 He told him, he asked him the third time, Simon, son of John, do you love me? Peter was grieved that he asked him the third time, do you love me? He said, Lord, you know everything. 637 00:56:29,671.9259236 --> 00:56:30,871.9259236 You know that I love you. 638 00:56:31,861.9259236 --> 00:56:32,521.9259236 my sheep. 639 00:56:32,581.9259236 --> 00:56:56,428.6632331 Jesus said, Jesus, I believe that you are asking us these three same questions, just like you asked Simon Peter, do you love me and do you love me more than these? These being what? Your accomplishments, your family, everything that you hold dear. 640 00:56:57,78.7988353 --> 00:57:09,514.834615 Do you love me more than these? And for everyone who is listening and watching God, I pray that wherever we might be that you would put us onto a path. 641 00:57:10,444.834615 --> 00:57:17,404.834615 We're, we are first and foremost seeking first you, your kingdom and your righteousness. 642 00:57:18,324.5136387 --> 00:57:26,800.506818 We're first and foremost, we are pursuing you and your love and being with you. 643 00:57:26,830.506818 --> 00:57:29,140.506818 Not just doing for you, but being with you. 644 00:57:30,77.0614734 --> 00:57:38,265.0094039 So would you remind us of this question? Do you love me more than these? And in every moment where we where our answer is actually, no. 645 00:57:38,805.0094039 --> 00:57:57,683.8929551 Lord, in your gracious ways, would you lead us back to the cross? Would you lead us back to your presence? And would you rekindle the love that we first had for you? Would you give us a glimpse of the love that you have for us? So may the Lord bless you and keep you. 646 00:57:58,433.8929551 --> 00:58:00,893.8929551 May the Lord turn his face towards you. 647 00:58:01,703.7356677 --> 00:58:06,683.7356677 May the Lord turn his face towards you and give you peace. 648 00:58:06,683.7356677 --> 00:58:08,698.7356677 In Jesus name, amen. 649 00:58:10,26.7485711 --> 00:58:14,116.7485711 Well, I hope that you enjoyed this episode of the Lausanne Movement Podcast. 650 00:58:14,396.7485711 --> 00:58:20,326.7485711 If you did enjoy the show, I want to encourage you to leave us a rating and review and share it with a friend. 651 00:58:20,815.3711069 --> 00:58:21,615.3711069 Till next week. 652 00:58:21,985.3711069 --> 00:58:22,435.3711069 Cheers.

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