Forming Disciple-Making Churches and Christlike Leaders with Mark Williamson

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Start with mission. 2 00:00:00,990.00000000001 --> 00:00:06,973.3733193211 So often when a new Christian community is formed, when a new church is planted, we start with worship. 3 00:00:07,153.400585432 --> 00:00:10,483.090000211 there are three stages in any great work of God. 4 00:00:10,780.888838454 --> 00:00:14,995.228939806 First of all, it's impossible, and then it's difficult and then it's done. 5 00:00:15,400.68419465 --> 00:00:18,429.840786129 some of them actually meet in coffee shops, cafes. 6 00:00:18,693.212681758 --> 00:00:21,933.212681758 and we would sit around tables and we would have discussions. 7 00:00:21,980.630694749 --> 00:00:32,946.410270652 I used to say one of the key distinctives about Cafe Church from a lot of other traditional churches is you have to talk to the person sat next to you when you come to Cafe Church. 8 00:00:33,173.702369295 --> 00:00:38,386.332754783 mission leads to discipleship and then we build community around that. 9 00:00:42,884.286011095 --> 00:00:49,394.286011095 Welcome to the Lausanne Movement Podcast, for those who have a passion to accelerate global mission together. 10 00:00:49,580.250180933 --> 00:00:56,840.250180933 My name is Jason Watson, and today on the podcast we are exploring a very crucial conversation facing the global church. 11 00:00:57,196.638105571 --> 00:00:58,936.638105571 The question of discipleship. 12 00:00:59,546.638105571 --> 00:01:07,676.638105571 My guest today is Mark Williamson, leader of One Rock International, and deeply involved in the fresh expressions movement within the uk. 13 00:01:08,96.638105571 --> 00:01:16,289.140969009 Mark has spent decades pioneering new forms of church and training Christ-like leaders who are making real kingdom impact. 14 00:01:16,362.291095127 --> 00:01:25,302.291095127 In this conversation, we're exploring what it means to build disciple making churches and develop Christ-like leaders for the kingdom of God. 15 00:01:25,479.240254867 --> 00:01:32,509.887095127 So I wanna invite you to grab your headphones and let's dive into today's interview with Mark Williamson. 16 00:01:35,577.957469099 --> 00:01:36,597.957469099 Welcome to the podcast. 17 00:01:36,597.957469099 --> 00:01:37,797.957469099 It's great to have you with us. 18 00:01:38,80.628210978 --> 00:01:38,620.628210978 Thank you. 19 00:01:38,620.628210978 --> 00:01:44,221.84882485 It's great to be able to be here, even though here is in my house, but here, people are listening, I. 20 00:01:45,426.84882485 --> 00:01:46,956.84882485 that's the amazing thing about this. 21 00:01:46,956.84882485 --> 00:01:49,866.84882485 I can be in South Africa, you can be in the uk, and we have. 22 00:01:50,406.84882485 --> 00:01:55,566.84882485 Audience from all over the world, and it's almost like we're having a global listening moment right here. 23 00:01:56,16.84882485 --> 00:01:56,436.84882485 Mark, it. 24 00:01:56,436.84882485 --> 00:01:58,26.84882485 It is really great to have you with us. 25 00:01:58,26.84882485 --> 00:02:07,596.84882485 And, I'm hoping in the next set of interviews that we can dive into Lausanne's one vision statement, which is about disciple making churches. 26 00:02:07,896.84882485 --> 00:02:13,986.84882485 And the way you and I engaged each other was through the Fresh Expressions Ministry, and that's why I got you on the podcast. 27 00:02:13,986.84882485 --> 00:02:24,666.84882485 But before we dive too deeply into that, I always like kicking the interviews off by just giving those, I'm interviewing an opportunity to introduce themselves, share a bit of their heart, their passion with the listeners. 28 00:02:24,666.84882485 --> 00:02:39,6.84882485 And so could you take that moment, could you kick us off by introducing yourself, sharing a bit about the many ministries you're involved with and, perhaps what, is the most exciting thing for you right now in, in some of the ministries? If you could share that with us just to kick us off. 29 00:02:39,661.84882485 --> 00:02:39,991.84882485 Sure. 30 00:02:40,291.84882485 --> 00:02:42,601.84882485 Okay, so my name is Mark Williamson. 31 00:02:42,821.84882485 --> 00:02:49,301.84882485 I'm based just outside, I suppose of London these days, although actually so much ministry is in London. 32 00:02:49,631.84882485 --> 00:03:10,871.84882485 I live in a town called Shar outside London, and I'm involved in several ministries, like you say, but my heart in all of it, is helping people get to know God better, to be able to discern more of his vision for their lives, and then to be supported in making those visions become reality. 33 00:03:11,531.84882485 --> 00:03:21,251.84882485 That's what I've loved doing, and I can think even going back, I guess since I first came to Faith at University over 25 years ago. 34 00:03:21,561.84882485 --> 00:03:34,251.84882485 And even the first tentative steps that maybe I took post university in work and how to serve God, they were the things that I look back and see. 35 00:03:34,251.84882485 --> 00:03:34,521.84882485 Wow. 36 00:03:34,521.84882485 --> 00:03:35,781.84882485 I was still passionate about that. 37 00:03:35,841.84882485 --> 00:03:36,201.84882485 Yeah. 38 00:03:36,531.84882485 --> 00:03:37,611.84882485 25 years ago. 39 00:03:37,911.84882485 --> 00:03:39,801.84882485 And it's still what motivates me now. 40 00:03:40,150.91819935 --> 00:03:43,510.91819935 I work for a charity called One Rock International. 41 00:03:43,930.91819935 --> 00:03:48,250.91819935 I volunteer with another charity called Fresh Expressions. 42 00:03:48,620.91819935 --> 00:03:52,130.91819935 And then I've gone and got a, little side thing as well. 43 00:03:52,130.91819935 --> 00:03:55,910.91819935 I've got an extra ministry called Prayer for London, so maybe I should take them in. 44 00:03:56,780.91819935 --> 00:04:04,970.91819935 Prayer for London is about encouraging intercession for revival and transformation across central London, basically. 45 00:04:05,480.91819935 --> 00:04:08,120.91819935 And I love to take people on. 46 00:04:08,690.91819935 --> 00:04:20,90.91819935 Sightseeing walks around the key areas of Central London and you get the tourist bit, this is Parliament, this is the Elizabeth Tower, this is Downing Street. 47 00:04:20,90.91819935 --> 00:04:20,870.91819935 This is the history of it. 48 00:04:21,50.91819935 --> 00:04:27,50.91819935 But then we pray outside each of those places for the institution that we're stood outside of. 49 00:04:27,320.91819935 --> 00:04:35,940.91819935 And I try and tell the history of the, spirituality of the city either of Westminster or of London, the financial sector. 50 00:04:36,630.91819935 --> 00:04:37,710.91819935 So that's one thing I do. 51 00:04:38,213.61302004 --> 00:04:49,613.61302004 I'm part of this ministry, fresh Expressions, which is all about encouraging people to start missional communities and be able to reach out to people who wouldn't attend normal, traditional forms of church. 52 00:04:50,123.61302004 --> 00:05:01,13.61302004 I have, I'm starting to feel old now, I suppose over my time, pioneered or been involved in leading, I guess three different types of fresh expression congregation or churches. 53 00:05:01,823.61302004 --> 00:05:07,973.61302004 And I just stepped down from leading a young adult community in Central London three months ago. 54 00:05:08,693.61302004 --> 00:05:11,273.61302004 But I'm on the board of Fresh Expressions uk. 55 00:05:11,273.61302004 --> 00:05:21,743.61302004 I chair the board, and so I'm involved in those conversations on a national level on how we can continue to encourage the setting up of all of those different missional communities across the nation. 56 00:05:22,523.61302004 --> 00:05:26,243.61302004 And then my main job is running one Rock. 57 00:05:26,813.61302004 --> 00:05:35,153.61302004 Which is a missional charity that is all about helping people to be able to discern and then live out God's vision for their lives. 58 00:05:35,243.61302004 --> 00:05:50,753.61302004 And we provide Christian-based leadership training and coaching primarily for church planters and pioneers, for social entrepreneurs, and for people working in charity to be able to help them grow their leadership capacity so they can make a bigger missional impact. 59 00:05:51,503.61302004 --> 00:05:53,603.61302004 So those are the main things I'm involved in. 60 00:05:53,903.61302004 --> 00:05:59,603.61302004 Separate to that, I support Liverpool Football Club and so we're champions of England at the moment. 61 00:05:59,603.61302004 --> 00:05:59,993.61302004 Yay. 62 00:06:00,533.61302004 --> 00:06:05,993.61302004 And I'm married to Asher Williamson, who is well known in-laws and circles. 63 00:06:06,53.61302004 --> 00:06:08,453.61302004 She's one of the leadership catalysts. 64 00:06:08,752.92007627 --> 00:06:09,222.92007627 Wonderful. 65 00:06:09,222.92007627 --> 00:06:10,152.92007627 Mark, thank you so much. 66 00:06:10,392.92007627 --> 00:06:12,762.92007627 it's really good to, to be able to get an overview. 67 00:06:13,242.92007627 --> 00:06:42,734.61881378 often when I'm talking to people like yourself that have been more involved in multiple ministries, I think one of the questions that goes through my mind often is how do you do it? Like, how, do you actually keep up that momentum? and maybe we can get into that at some point in, into the interview, for me, there's a clear thread in a large part of what you're doing, and you mentioned it in your intro of that passion to walk alongside people and see them grow into the fullness of who God created them to be. 68 00:06:43,334.61881378 --> 00:07:00,117.95214711 I didn't articulate that as beautifully as you did, but I'm curious, what is the story behind that passion that has been driving you in, your prayer initiative in one rock, and in fresh expressions, like what is it that is driving that and where did it come from? That is a good question. 69 00:07:00,117.95214711 --> 00:07:01,857.95214711 It's a very deep question I get. 70 00:07:02,157.95214711 --> 00:07:09,237.95214711 ultimately the short answer is Jesus, clearly I'm meeting with God and him transforming me in that and giving me that passion. 71 00:07:09,507.95214711 --> 00:07:16,707.95214711 And so I can see that right back to when I first came to faith at university and having that passion. 72 00:07:17,367.95214711 --> 00:07:22,767.95214711 But I think two moments maybe crystallized it for me more. 73 00:07:23,692.95214711 --> 00:07:26,992.95214711 After university, I went away to Ghana. 74 00:07:26,992.95214711 --> 00:07:33,112.95214711 I was living in West Africa for a year and then came back home and, I couldn't afford to come back to London. 75 00:07:33,112.95214711 --> 00:07:55,336.28548045 So I was living in Lancashire in the northwest of England, back at my parents' house and me and an old friend from a village church that I had attended, a liberal Methodist church we started up a group for the other young adults in our community that kind of used to go to church, maybe when they were teenagers, but weren't sure what church was all about. 76 00:07:55,336.28548045 --> 00:07:57,586.28548045 Had never made much of a commitment to Jesus. 77 00:07:57,586.28548045 --> 00:08:08,836.28548045 We started to do stuff with them and I found that I was so excited, a, when they started to make deeper commitments to God and in following Jesus. 78 00:08:08,836.28548045 --> 00:08:13,126.28548045 That's always exciting, seeing God at work in their lives and them going deeper in faith. 79 00:08:13,516.28548045 --> 00:08:19,306.28548045 But then also what I really love was when they started to set up other. 80 00:08:20,391.28548045 --> 00:08:26,421.28548045 Evangelism initiatives to do their own stuff that in turn was starting to reach out to others. 81 00:08:26,781.28548045 --> 00:08:37,821.28548045 So one began a youth club in her home church, another one started a football team and started to disciple teenage boys that he was working with. 82 00:08:38,751.28548045 --> 00:08:51,501.28548045 And so when I go back, I can see there's always been, this DNA of wanting people to come to faith, but then to discern what God's calling them to and be equipped to then start their own. 83 00:08:51,936.28548045 --> 00:08:59,886.28548045 Ministries, projects or whatever it is that God has put on their heart to see that vision come to pass that is furthering the kingdom in some way. 84 00:09:00,576.28548045 --> 00:09:01,416.28548045 That was a key thing. 85 00:09:01,896.28548045 --> 00:09:10,176.28548045 And then maybe another key moment was, so I left when I went back to London, I started working with a ministry called Share Jesus International. 86 00:09:10,566.28548045 --> 00:09:15,366.28548045 And we would do short-term missions in different cities across the uk. 87 00:09:15,606.28548045 --> 00:09:25,566.28548045 We would bring usually teams of young people, again in their late teens or in their early twenties to serve a particular group of churches in a town or in a city. 88 00:09:25,566.28548045 --> 00:09:27,786.28548045 And we'd do short-term mission projects for the week. 89 00:09:27,786.28548045 --> 00:09:35,716.28548045 We'd run, youth club events, football competitions beach volleyball, whatever it was to try and engage people in that town and talk with them about Jesus. 90 00:09:36,286.28548045 --> 00:09:43,816.28548045 And I'd been working for them for two or three years and I had this moment of revelation of. 91 00:09:44,731.28548045 --> 00:10:03,391.28548045 Realizing every time we as the core staff at Share, Jesus had a vision, we could contact these amazing volunteers and we'd get 2050, a hundred people would give up a week of their lives to come and help us make our crazy vision become reality. 92 00:10:03,511.28548045 --> 00:10:05,71.28548045 That was hopefully trying to further the kingdom. 93 00:10:05,431.28548045 --> 00:10:08,371.28548045 So I wanted to say to those people, first of all, thank you. 94 00:10:08,941.28548045 --> 00:10:10,531.28548045 That's amazing that you do that for us. 95 00:10:10,891.28548045 --> 00:10:35,731.28548045 But also, what's your vision and how can we then be equipping you for the other 50 weeks of the year when you are not on Beach Mission with us, or doing whatever it is we are doing that year? How can we be supporting you to live out your vision and be furthering the kingdom there and wherever it has God has placed you? So I guess that's always been, or not quite always for a long time, be my heart. 96 00:10:36,151.28548045 --> 00:10:36,451.28548045 Yeah. 97 00:10:36,511.28548045 --> 00:10:38,102.28548045 And been core in in the DNA. 98 00:10:38,684.61881378 --> 00:10:50,924.61881378 mark, I think one of the things that, that I've often struggled with when it comes to event, the way that we do ministry as evangelicals is, we, we might preach the gospel, we might, call people to faith. 99 00:10:51,194.61881378 --> 00:10:52,304.61881378 give your life to Jesus. 100 00:10:52,304.61881378 --> 00:10:57,644.61881378 And I pray the salvation prayer and we can fill our churches with people like that. 101 00:10:58,214.61881378 --> 00:11:07,934.61881378 But if there's no further like expression of discipleship and connection with these people, that becomes what their Christianity looks like. 102 00:11:08,84.61881378 --> 00:11:11,144.61881378 And, clearly you walked a very different path. 103 00:11:11,804.61881378 --> 00:11:28,784.61881378 And, so I'd be curious, where, did that come from? Was there someone who came alongside you and said, Hey Mark, let me show you what it's like to, walk with Christ and to make disciples who are making disciples and make an impact and teach others to make impact. 104 00:11:29,114.61881378 --> 00:11:38,83.78548045 Was that demonstrated to you or was that just something that the Holy Spirit has inherited, given to you? I guess it was never articulated, even demonstrated. 105 00:11:38,293.78548045 --> 00:11:38,953.78548045 That's unfair. 106 00:11:38,983.78548045 --> 00:11:45,763.78548045 I'm sure other people have demonstrated it to me, but maybe I wasn't necessarily realizing it. 107 00:11:46,543.78548045 --> 00:12:09,253.78548045 And I would say yes, when I first came to faith, did I have the more narrow, classically evangelical understanding, of Jesus has died to save us from our sins and seeing Jesus as this? yes, God in human form figure, but a, sacrificial figure. 108 00:12:10,3.78548045 --> 00:12:11,773.78548045 Not really more than that. 109 00:12:12,103.78548045 --> 00:12:31,243.78548045 I think maybe again, and I don't want to criticize other churchman, we all came to faith in different places, but maybe the place where I came to Faith did more emphasize, if you want serious teaching, maybe you would go to Paul, you would go to some of the other epistles in terms of how to live out this Christian life. 110 00:12:31,573.78548045 --> 00:12:41,533.78548045 And I would say it's been a growing realization for myself that Paul is brilliant and I'm, an evangelical. 111 00:12:41,533.78548045 --> 00:12:48,403.78548045 I still believe in the authority of all of scripture, but Jesus is ultimately who we are following. 112 00:12:48,793.78548045 --> 00:12:50,533.78548045 That's what it means to be a Christian. 113 00:12:50,803.78548045 --> 00:12:52,333.78548045 I'm following Jesus. 114 00:12:52,333.78548045 --> 00:12:54,13.78548045 I'm not following Paul. 115 00:12:54,13.78548045 --> 00:12:55,243.78548045 I'm not following Apostle. 116 00:12:55,243.78548045 --> 00:12:56,413.78548045 I'm not following Kfa. 117 00:12:56,683.78548045 --> 00:13:01,93.78548045 I'm following each of them in as much as they help me to follow Jesus. 118 00:13:01,453.78548045 --> 00:13:04,93.78548045 And so let's really. 119 00:13:04,738.78548045 --> 00:13:13,868.78548045 Look at Jesus's teaching what he was saying in terms of how to live and try and bring that into every part of our lives. 120 00:13:14,425.45214711 --> 00:13:19,15.45214711 Jesus has to be the rabbi for all of us that we're seeking to follow. 121 00:13:19,615.45214711 --> 00:13:26,275.45214711 he wasn't just the rabbi for the early 12 or the 72 or whatever, and then becomes a separate figure. 122 00:13:26,275.45214711 --> 00:13:28,615.45214711 He's got to be the rabbi that's teaching us. 123 00:13:29,695.45214711 --> 00:13:30,910.45214711 we following? Yeah. 124 00:13:31,150.45214711 --> 00:13:35,950.45214711 it reminds me a bit of like how Paul spoke about, he said, follow me as I'm following Christ. 125 00:13:35,950.45214711 --> 00:13:39,394.77935967 Like even Paul was saying, Let's follow Jesus together. 126 00:13:39,704.77935967 --> 00:13:43,124.77935967 Let's put our focus and walk together towards, towards him. 127 00:13:43,724.77935967 --> 00:13:58,348.112693 So, Mark, when you hear the phrase that comes out of the Lasagne vision statement, disciple making churches for every people in place, what comes to your mind? What stirs in you as either from your own story or the work that you're up to? So there's a lot in that. 128 00:13:59,368.112693 --> 00:14:04,708.112693 can I gloss over the every people and every place? Because that's straightforward. 129 00:14:04,858.112693 --> 00:14:13,828.112693 Is it? that means with an accessible reach to everybody, to anybody across the whole face of the planet, doesn't it? And that's important, but I'm sure the people have talked on that. 130 00:14:14,218.112693 --> 00:14:26,818.112693 I think the phrase that resonates with me within that is disciple making churches and the recognition, again, certainly I can speak from my own background in the uk, not every church. 131 00:14:27,388.112693 --> 00:14:36,28.112693 Is disciple making or is not very good, but disciple making doesn't talk enough about disciple making. 132 00:14:36,328.112693 --> 00:15:11,848.112693 And so are we being intentional with when people come to church? Either that is they're coming to faith for the first time, and then absolutely how are we introducing them to what does it mean to follow Jesus and helping to disciple them? Or even if it's transfer growth and they've moved from another city and for perfectly good reasons, they've left one church and are coming to another, how are we still encouraging them in? maybe your previous church didn't really emphasize this and you just turned up on a Sunday and sat in the pew, but here we are a. 133 00:15:12,118.112693 --> 00:15:17,728.112693 Disciple making where a disciple, engaging community. 134 00:15:18,148.112693 --> 00:15:39,748.112693 So I guess it speaks to me about what are the core practices, the principles, what does it mean to to be a disciple of Jesus? How are we encouraging others in that? What are the key things that we should be trying to build into someone else's life? When they say, I want to start following Jesus, we say, brilliant. 135 00:15:39,778.112693 --> 00:15:43,468.112693 Okay, and here is the three or five most important things. 136 00:15:43,468.112693 --> 00:15:50,762.71094297 What would it be we're sharing, the challenge that you brought up is not just true for the uk. 137 00:15:51,602.71094297 --> 00:15:58,52.71094297 just a couple of weeks ago I was busy doing a reformer training, with some local church pastors here in South Africa. 138 00:15:58,52.71094297 --> 00:15:58,862.71094297 And the question that. 139 00:15:59,177.71094297 --> 00:16:01,637.71094297 We spoke about had to do with this idea of discipleship. 140 00:16:01,637.71094297 --> 00:16:09,47.71094297 Is there a difference between a Christian and a disciple? And obviously you mean this, you can take that in many different directions. 141 00:16:09,47.71094297 --> 00:16:10,277.71094297 That's not the point of this interview. 142 00:16:10,667.71094297 --> 00:16:26,657.71094297 but even in that conversation, the South African Church pastors we're wrestling with, we have a church full of Christians, but are we making disciples and are they making disciples? And I, I think this is why this is, this conversation is such an important one. 143 00:16:26,807.71094297 --> 00:16:37,667.71094297 And so I would love to now chat to you about fresh expressions because it feels to me like what you guys are doing with within Fresh Expressions is really trying to speak into that reality. 144 00:16:37,727.71094297 --> 00:16:46,687.710943 And so you, mentioned that you have started three different fresh expression groups and you're now on the board for the listeners who may not be familiar with, what you guys are doing. 145 00:16:46,687.710943 --> 00:16:54,152.710943 Could you unpack that for us? What is fresh expressions and how is that different maybe to a normal quote unquote church? Yes. 146 00:16:54,272.710943 --> 00:17:01,682.710943 and I should say, I should preface this with, I'll probably say things wrong, so the listeners can go to fresh expressions.org 147 00:17:01,892.710943 --> 00:17:02,432.710943 uk. 148 00:17:03,62.710943 --> 00:17:04,402.710943 get It's fantastic. 149 00:17:04,652.710943 --> 00:17:04,742.710943 there. 150 00:17:05,42.710943 --> 00:17:11,182.710943 You'll get the more eloquent version, but I could give you my understanding of my concepts within Please do. 151 00:17:11,182.710943 --> 00:17:11,392.710943 Yeah. 152 00:17:11,619.3776096 --> 00:17:19,418.9016981 so Fresh Expressions, it's all about encouraging mission Pioneering new forms of missional church. 153 00:17:19,628.9016981 --> 00:17:34,628.9016981 How can we be church that is more relevant to people in society? The vast majority of whom? Certainly, again, in a UK context, in so many western contexts, in so many post Christendom societies. 154 00:17:34,968.9016981 --> 00:17:38,993.9016981 So many people are not attending church and. 155 00:17:39,593.9016981 --> 00:17:45,933.9016981 They are less likely to attend traditional church whatever that looks like. 156 00:17:46,383.9016981 --> 00:17:58,263.9016981 So how can we develop communities of faith, genuine communities where Jesus is at the center? We're not at all compromising on the message on what it means to follow Jesus. 157 00:17:58,263.9016981 --> 00:18:17,883.9016981 If anything, maybe we're zeroing more in on that and becoming more zealous about it, but we're trying to, dare I say, cut away some of the non-essentials and certainly any of the cultural baggage or trappings that prevent people and to present Christian community. 158 00:18:18,273.9016981 --> 00:18:24,63.9016981 Christian opportunities of faith in a way that seems more relevant to who they are and what they're doing. 159 00:18:24,843.9016981 --> 00:18:37,353.9016981 I often say, for me, the core thing about fresh expressions, and this is my version of it, there's the more learned version on the website, talks about a six step process in terms of how you would start a missional community. 160 00:18:37,683.9016981 --> 00:18:41,253.9016981 For me it's they use bigger words. 161 00:18:41,283.9016981 --> 00:18:43,383.9016981 I would say the key thing is start with mission. 162 00:18:44,253.9016981 --> 00:18:45,3.9016981 Start with mission. 163 00:18:45,243.9016981 --> 00:18:51,633.9016981 So often when a new Christian community is formed, when a new church is planted, we start with worship. 164 00:18:52,293.9016981 --> 00:19:01,863.9016981 As in a group of Christians will go to a new place and they will start a worshiping community in that town, in that city. 165 00:19:01,923.9016981 --> 00:19:05,523.9016981 They will try and maybe rent an existing church or an auditorium. 166 00:19:05,793.9016981 --> 00:19:11,643.9016981 They will put a lot of emphasis on the worship experience. 167 00:19:12,3.9016981 --> 00:19:35,433.9016981 I would crudely say, I haven't researched this, but I would guess probably 80% of the effort of the time of the finance is going towards that worship experience, whether that's on a Sunday morning, which is, when most churches still meet, or even if it's a different time on a Sunday evening, on a Saturday evening, it's still the majority of the effort goes into how are we gonna. 168 00:19:35,808.9016981 --> 00:19:39,258.9016981 How let's build a worship experience that we can invite people to. 169 00:19:39,258.9016981 --> 00:19:48,628.9016981 It's called the Attractional Church model, and so maybe you are paying a lot of attention to, we wanna have a great preacher, we wanna have a great worship leader, we wanna have a great PA system. 170 00:19:48,988.9016981 --> 00:19:50,728.9016981 And all of those things are useful. 171 00:19:50,998.9016981 --> 00:19:51,268.9016981 sorry. 172 00:19:51,778.9016981 --> 00:19:53,278.9016981 A great PA system is useful. 173 00:19:53,278.9016981 --> 00:19:53,668.9016981 A great. 174 00:19:53,878.9016981 --> 00:19:54,858.9016981 Preacher Always. 175 00:19:54,988.9016981 --> 00:19:56,98.9016981 leader, they're more than useful. 176 00:19:56,158.9016981 --> 00:19:56,548.9016981 Okay. 177 00:19:56,933.9016981 --> 00:19:57,193.9016981 Yeah. 178 00:19:59,278.9016981 --> 00:20:02,548.9016981 Imperative of the great gifts to the church. 179 00:20:03,178.9016981 --> 00:20:20,758.9016981 But it's still, at the end of the day, an attractional church model where we're inviting people come to this worshiping community that we are now forming in this new place, and if 80% of the effort is going onto the worship, then the next stage. 180 00:20:21,133.9016981 --> 00:20:22,153.9016981 Tends to be okay. 181 00:20:22,153.9016981 --> 00:20:31,693.9016981 And let's try and disciple those people that have come to faith or are now joining us and crudely again, I'd say maybe 15% of the time. 182 00:20:31,693.9016981 --> 00:20:33,223.9016981 And the energy and the effort goes onto that. 183 00:20:33,493.9016981 --> 00:20:47,593.9016981 And then the third stage, if we get to the third stage, and to be honest, we often don't, is let's equip those disciples to go out and do mission to see themselves as evangelists or missionaries or agents of the kingdom, wherever they are. 184 00:20:47,983.9016981 --> 00:20:51,853.9016981 And there's maybe 5% that goes towards that. 185 00:20:52,543.9016981 --> 00:21:01,633.9016981 And what I love about fresh expressions is it pretty much turns that on its head and it says, and by the way, there, there's nothing wrong with that. 186 00:21:02,8.9016981 --> 00:21:05,818.9016981 When it's working and when it is bringing people to faith. 187 00:21:06,118.9016981 --> 00:21:09,568.9016981 And as long as people are following Jesus, that's all I care about. 188 00:21:09,568.9016981 --> 00:21:10,228.9016981 Fantastic. 189 00:21:10,558.9016981 --> 00:21:24,688.9016981 But it only reaches a certain section of people in the UK and in many other, certainly post christener Western societies, although actually we're having more and more interest from non-Western societies about FX methodology as well. 190 00:21:25,228.9016981 --> 00:21:29,278.9016981 But FX would change that and say, let's begin with worship. 191 00:21:29,998.9016981 --> 00:21:38,518.9016981 Let's get to know a community and be part of it and figure out how can we genuinely love and serve. 192 00:21:38,998.9016981 --> 00:21:52,288.9016981 With this community, alongside this community or so into this community, and we're doing mission by doing that, by building those relationships and we're encouraging people to come to faith. 193 00:21:52,648.9016981 --> 00:21:57,388.9016981 And then when people have come to faith or in that process, we're really discipling them. 194 00:21:57,923.9016981 --> 00:22:02,813.9016981 And discipleship, you can argue begins before people come to faith, doesn't it? It's that process. 195 00:22:03,23.9016981 --> 00:22:12,563.9016981 We're teaching them about, what does it mean to follow Jesus? So mission leads to discipleship and then we build community around that. 196 00:22:12,563.9016981 --> 00:22:18,323.9016981 But then the final stage, rather than the beginning stage is the worship. 197 00:22:18,593.9016981 --> 00:22:27,983.9016981 And actually I know the fresh expressions, people will tell me off of that because the final stage in our model is actually no, then it is doing it again and seeding another missional community. 198 00:22:28,253.9016981 --> 00:22:43,433.9016981 But in my shortened analogy, if the end goal becomes we create a new worshiping community, what other people might look at from the outside and say, oh yeah, we recognize that as a form of church, but it's gonna look and this is the crucial thing. 199 00:22:43,463.9016981 --> 00:22:50,3.9016981 It's gonna look very different from whatever form of church we will have come up with. 200 00:22:50,503.9016981 --> 00:23:15,533.9016981 By sitting down thinking, even by praying and trying to discern what is God calling us to do, what should church look like here? We're still gonna probably come with a lot of our own perceptions and cultural baggage rather than allowing that community once they've come to faith to genuinely shape what a worshiping community should look like within that culture. 201 00:23:15,863.9016981 --> 00:23:25,673.9016981 And then that is gonna be a far more accessible form of church to other people within that culture, rather than the form of church that we have tried to transplant into it. 202 00:23:26,423.9016981 --> 00:23:29,273.9016981 That is the nutshell of fresh expressions, in the journey. 203 00:23:29,804.0113586 --> 00:23:54,734.0113586 yeah, what, I really appreciate about the way that you are bringing, doing Church is it almost reminds me of the Leslie New Begin kind of philosophy and of, seeing yourself as a missionary in your community and, then approaching and ministering to your community in that same way of entering into their culture and sharing the gospel. 204 00:23:56,144.0113586 --> 00:24:07,29.5806167 so Mark, could you explain and just maybe share a few examples of what these communities have looked like over the years in the uk? You mentioned that you, have led three of them, I can share some examples. 205 00:24:07,479.5806167 --> 00:24:18,189.5806167 The, caution that I always have in this is it's really people for here for, it's really easy for people to hear an example and say, aha, that sounds exciting. 206 00:24:18,249.5806167 --> 00:24:19,689.5806167 Let's try that here. 207 00:24:20,439.5806167 --> 00:24:24,849.5806167 And if that's what God is calling you to do, who am I to argue against? Okay. 208 00:24:25,119.5806167 --> 00:24:32,139.5806167 But there is still a danger in it that we're still bringing our own form to that. 209 00:24:32,529.5806167 --> 00:24:36,819.5806167 In fact, we had a fascinating discussion at Fresh Expressions recently. 210 00:24:36,819.5806167 --> 00:24:37,929.5806167 I think I can share this. 211 00:24:38,649.5806167 --> 00:24:52,299.5806167 because now we use this language as to why we don't use the term church planting, but we use the term church pioneering or missional community pioneering to describe what we do. 212 00:24:53,199.5806167 --> 00:24:57,549.5806167 And both are about establishing new forms of worshiping communities. 213 00:24:58,149.5806167 --> 00:24:58,389.5806167 Yeah. 214 00:24:58,449.5806167 --> 00:25:05,619.5806167 And as I say, attractional, church planting, I've got nothing against 'cause where it's working phenomenal is bringing people to Jesus. 215 00:25:05,619.5806167 --> 00:25:07,29.5806167 I'm not gonna criticize that at all. 216 00:25:07,929.5806167 --> 00:25:13,599.5806167 But it, we often use it as, it's a horticultural kind of analogy, isn't it? and we think of church planting. 217 00:25:13,599.5806167 --> 00:25:14,679.5806167 It's this organic thing. 218 00:25:14,949.5806167 --> 00:25:15,969.5806167 You sow the seeds. 219 00:25:16,669.5806167 --> 00:25:26,179.5806167 one of our team, I think, brilliantly Perceptively said, if you are planting something, you know what is gonna grow as a result of that. 220 00:25:26,539.5806167 --> 00:25:30,139.5806167 If you plant tomato seeds, you're gonna get a tomato bush. 221 00:25:30,469.5806167 --> 00:25:33,139.5806167 If you plant an acorn, you are gonna get an oak tree. 222 00:25:33,829.5806167 --> 00:25:37,759.5806167 if you plant a sycamore seed, I guess they are seeds, you're gonna get a sycamore tree. 223 00:25:38,14.5806167 --> 00:25:40,699.5806167 You are, the, process. 224 00:25:40,699.5806167 --> 00:25:43,339.5806167 There's only one thing that can come as a result of it. 225 00:25:43,759.5806167 --> 00:25:49,549.5806167 Whereas in a more FX methodology, in pioneering, you don't know. 226 00:25:50,539.5806167 --> 00:25:53,599.5806167 What this new worshiping community is gonna look like. 227 00:25:54,319.5806167 --> 00:26:09,285.0956438 So you could go in with your ideas of what you think, but it's not about replicating What does it mean to Pioneer is we talked about how the community is gonna be affected by, really three huge influences. 228 00:26:09,495.0956438 --> 00:26:18,195.0956438 The pioneer themselves, their passions, their giftings, their skills, and especially if it's a pioneering team, then what they're excited about and interested in. 229 00:26:18,855.0956438 --> 00:26:29,145.0956438 And then the second area is gonna be the community which they are working with because that should be sharing and in the vision and shaping it as well. 230 00:26:29,355.0956438 --> 00:26:30,795.0956438 And what is that culturally gonna look like. 231 00:26:31,65.0956438 --> 00:26:34,35.0956438 And then the third is obviously God and the role of the Holy Spirit. 232 00:26:34,35.0956438 --> 00:26:36,495.0956438 And we want him to be present in all of that. 233 00:26:36,705.0956438 --> 00:26:39,75.0956438 So it's this threefold thing and therefore. 234 00:26:39,440.0956438 --> 00:26:41,720.0956438 This concept of pioneering rather than planting. 235 00:26:42,20.0956438 --> 00:26:45,980.0956438 So I say all of that as a big preface, but now to try and answer your question. 236 00:26:46,130.0956438 --> 00:26:50,60.0956438 'cause I know a lot of people are saying, that's great theory, but give me some examples. 237 00:26:50,780.0956438 --> 00:27:12,290.0956438 So I led a cafe church for just under 10 years in southwest London and they've become very popular across the uk, which, and many people will have many different types of meanings about what a cafe church is, but I suppose ultimately it looks a bit like a cafe, if that seems a bit obvious. 238 00:27:12,530.0956438 --> 00:27:16,620.0956438 Some of them actually As long as there's good coffee, that's right? in it. 239 00:27:16,725.0956438 --> 00:27:16,896.861754 Yeah. 240 00:27:17,15.0956438 --> 00:27:20,30.0956438 some of them actually meet in coffee shops cafes. 241 00:27:20,295.9653054 --> 00:27:26,465.9653054 some of them, hours met on a church premises, but I suppose it wasn't in the main sanctuary. 242 00:27:26,465.9653054 --> 00:27:28,55.9653054 It was in another hall. 243 00:27:28,55.9653054 --> 00:27:31,775.9653054 And we would set up the room to look like a cafe. 244 00:27:32,255.9653054 --> 00:27:36,215.9653054 And I suppose key in that was we would eat food together as part of it, we would. 245 00:27:36,435.9653054 --> 00:27:40,605.9653054 Eat a meal and we would sit around tables and we would have discussions. 246 00:27:40,905.9653054 --> 00:27:52,185.9653054 I used to say one of the key distinctives about Cafe Church from a lot of other traditional churches is you have to talk to the person sat next to you when you come to Cafe Church. 247 00:27:52,665.9653054 --> 00:27:57,585.9653054 And some people hate that and some people love that, but we think that's something of church. 248 00:27:58,245.9653054 --> 00:28:16,215.9653054 we, should be building community and there can be other churches and you can have incredible, amazing on fire anointed churches where you go in and you meet with God and the presence of God is there and you are worshiping him and you hear fantastic teaching from scripture and your challenge to apply it to your life. 249 00:28:16,545.9653054 --> 00:28:25,125.9653054 And you do some powerful intercession for the things that you want God to be doing in the world, but then you can leave and not having spoken. 250 00:28:25,495.9653054 --> 00:28:27,715.9653054 To anybody else, to the person next to you. 251 00:28:28,345.9653054 --> 00:28:31,135.9653054 And so in Cafe Church, we didn't allow that. 252 00:28:31,135.9653054 --> 00:28:32,935.9653054 It was about discussing. 253 00:28:32,935.9653054 --> 00:28:36,775.9653054 So we'd be teaching and then talking together about how we're applying it. 254 00:28:36,775.9653054 --> 00:28:38,635.9653054 We're trying to get to know each other better. 255 00:28:39,55.9653054 --> 00:28:46,270.9653054 We're trying to model something Christian community from what coffee shop culture does well. 256 00:28:46,810.9653054 --> 00:28:51,185.9653054 another famous grouping in the UK is messy church. 257 00:28:51,275.9653054 --> 00:29:03,395.9653054 There's actually a website, if you Google Messy Church, it comes up with, and they have fantastic resources for doing basically intergenerational church, where you've got all ages coming together, doing different activities. 258 00:29:03,395.9653054 --> 00:29:16,235.9653054 So you've got grandparents, parents, children working on creative projects, doing things together, but in a way that is encouraging all of them to become more mature disciples. 259 00:29:17,85.9653054 --> 00:29:28,595.9653054 And again, it, found to be a, great accessible form of church for lots of families, especially families where otherwise the kids are being told to just be quiet and behave on a Sunday work. 260 00:29:29,315.9653054 --> 00:29:39,605.9653054 They wanna run around or they want to get involved and be interactive and play with plaster seed and with paints and make something messy, heads the name. 261 00:29:40,235.9653054 --> 00:29:45,155.9653054 and life often is messy anyway, and church can be messy, but so messy. 262 00:29:45,155.9653054 --> 00:29:59,765.9653054 Church is, they're probably the two most famous, and I hate to use the term brand, but they've become that as church because again, the danger is we can just take something off the shelf and say, oh, that, that sounds brilliant. 263 00:29:59,765.9653054 --> 00:30:00,755.9653054 Let me try and apply it here. 264 00:30:01,355.9653054 --> 00:30:04,445.9653054 And, maybe, but I think there is so much to be said in that. 265 00:30:04,850.9653054 --> 00:30:19,40.9653054 Context of we're about pioneering and about listening and getting to know the community and then figuring out, therefore how will this church look more unique? How is it gonna be different because this community is unique. 266 00:30:19,640.9653054 --> 00:30:36,50.6235951 I really appreciate, you bringing that up and, promising, the examples that you gave because there is that temptation of doing the copy and paste job, whether it's local church planting or whether it's ministry, right? oh, this is working in their ministry, so let's do it in our ministry. 267 00:30:36,50.6235951 --> 00:30:37,820.6235951 And you're hoping for the same results. 268 00:30:37,880.6235951 --> 00:30:48,320.6235951 And I think a lot of our missions conferences and leadership conferences almost are like that, people giving you the five points of growing their church or building their ministry. 269 00:30:48,955.6235951 --> 00:30:54,830.6235951 and so I really appreciate your promising it, but I'd be curious to hear from you just as we wrap up this part of the conversation. 270 00:30:55,640.6235951 --> 00:31:06,710.6235951 if it's not about, that copy and paste, which we now have established as not, but it's about going into the community and assessing what that community needs. 271 00:31:07,110.6235951 --> 00:31:17,130.6235951 What is it, what are those takeaway principles that can be applied in my context as well as yours, as well as someone from Southeast Asia? you're talking to a global community here. 272 00:31:17,130.6235951 --> 00:31:21,840.6235951 All of our cultures and home, situations are, vastly different from each other. 273 00:31:22,290.6235951 --> 00:31:31,300.6235951 What are one or two key principles that you'd say, Hey, if you interested in being missional in your community, this is what I would encourage you to do and this is how I would encourage you to think. 274 00:31:32,325.6235951 --> 00:31:34,215.6235951 and again, the Fresh Expressions website. 275 00:31:34,215.6235951 --> 00:31:35,265.6235951 Let me do another plug again. 276 00:31:35,265.6235951 --> 00:31:36,975.6235951 Fresh expressions.org 277 00:31:37,305.6235951 --> 00:31:51,375.6235951 UK has got lots on there, so it's got the six step process or Fresh Expressions model, and that starts with praying and then with listening and getting to know the community. 278 00:31:51,795.6235951 --> 00:31:52,665.6235951 And that's key. 279 00:31:52,755.6235951 --> 00:32:01,5.6235951 It's ideal if you're already a part of that community, because then you are already thinking more like people in that community or. 280 00:32:01,545.6235951 --> 00:32:09,585.6235951 The more you get to know, and the more you start to serve, the more you start to realize, oh, and this is a need in this community. 281 00:32:09,975.6235951 --> 00:32:11,475.6235951 This is an issue. 282 00:32:11,715.6235951 --> 00:32:26,865.6235951 This is a, something that is not being met, but where we might be able to contribute something and then others will probably start to coalesce around that issue with you and say, oh yeah, we noticed that's a need in our community as well. 283 00:32:27,135.6235951 --> 00:32:29,25.6235951 Great, well done for stepping into that. 284 00:32:29,325.6235951 --> 00:32:36,945.6235951 Can we come alongside you and help in that? And that's where the relationship and where the discipling often begins. 285 00:32:37,215.6235951 --> 00:32:46,298.9569284 I'll give you, so another example in, the community that I just stopped leading was called Sanctuary Westminster in Central London. 286 00:32:46,628.9569284 --> 00:32:51,428.9569284 And we were trying to reach specifically young adults in Central London. 287 00:32:52,178.9569284 --> 00:33:08,288.9569284 And so we were thinking, what are people thinking in those areas or, and as we build relationships, especially with young professionals, maybe in central London, they're working in the civil service or in the finance industries, they were two huge areas, big employers. 288 00:33:08,618.013224 --> 00:33:21,128.013224 so we were thinking, what can we be doing with them? And we came to this concept of developing what we call justice groups, which are each looking at a specific issue. 289 00:33:21,398.013224 --> 00:33:24,8.013224 Going on either in the city or in the world. 290 00:33:24,788.013224 --> 00:33:29,830.6513776 one was looking at climate change and obviously so many, people are concerned about that. 291 00:33:29,830.6513776 --> 00:33:42,950.6513776 What could we do to each reduce our own carbon footprint or then to start looking at, within society, what should we be campaigning towards or joining within? Homelessness is a huge issue across London. 292 00:33:43,10.6513776 --> 00:33:47,960.6513776 We say literally it's on our doorstep and there would be homeless people outside the church. 293 00:33:48,20.6513776 --> 00:34:00,900.6513776 So we started to volunteer at a another church down the road that provided a free meal every two weeks or, and then a third church that collects a food and clothing for a food bank. 294 00:34:00,900.6513776 --> 00:34:02,10.6513776 We would support that. 295 00:34:02,640.6513776 --> 00:34:14,40.6513776 And then a third area, my passion area was on financial justice and looking at London as potentially at the center of a tax haven network globally. 296 00:34:14,340.6513776 --> 00:34:16,260.6513776 And what could we do to. 297 00:34:17,315.6513776 --> 00:34:21,845.6513776 Greater fairness and justice to the global financial system. 298 00:34:22,55.6513776 --> 00:34:24,245.6513776 So each of those are massive issues Yeah. 299 00:34:24,995.6513776 --> 00:34:30,965.6513776 That no one person could solve on their own, but so many young people would be coming and saying, oh, I'm interested in that. 300 00:34:30,965.6513776 --> 00:34:34,655.6513776 Yeah, I see the number of homeless people on the streets and I wonder what could be done about it. 301 00:34:34,655.6513776 --> 00:34:36,5.6513776 And I can't do anything on my own. 302 00:34:36,515.6513776 --> 00:34:50,375.6513776 actually you can come and join our community and we are already serving in these different ways, and we're starting to look at what else could we do? Or if you are interested in climate change issues, come and join our eco group. 303 00:34:50,615.6513776 --> 00:34:56,615.6513776 If you are passionate about, yeah, there are inequities in the global financial system, this is wrong. 304 00:34:56,615.6513776 --> 00:35:06,455.6513776 That in effect, we're allowing money laundering to take place and the corrupt regimes or the criminal gangs to stash their wealth in tax havens. 305 00:35:06,755.6513776 --> 00:35:13,415.6513776 What can we do to try and stop that? Those became some of the ways in which we could. 306 00:35:14,40.6513776 --> 00:35:17,190.6513776 Communicate who we are, what we're doing, build relationship. 307 00:35:17,190.6513776 --> 00:35:21,900.6513776 People would want to join us and work alongside us in those things. 308 00:35:21,900.6513776 --> 00:35:27,840.6513776 And in those conversations, people are saying, so why are you doing this? Oh, because you're following this guy, Jesus. 309 00:35:28,200.6513776 --> 00:35:34,350.6513776 And so it, it's natural to have those conversations and the discipleship starts to take place. 310 00:35:34,627.2612376 --> 00:35:44,137.2612376 I think Fresh Expressions is an app name to describe the kind of church that, that you guys are trying to pioneer, in the UK and across the world. 311 00:35:44,183.705853 --> 00:35:48,383.705853 and so we focus a lot on this idea of church, of Fresh expression of church. 312 00:35:48,683.705853 --> 00:35:52,223.705853 But I'd like to focus a little bit more on that idea of disciple making. 313 00:35:52,583.705853 --> 00:35:57,803.705853 And one of the ministries that you have pioneered is, along with your wife, is, One Rock. 314 00:35:58,133.705853 --> 00:36:05,33.705853 And I would love to hear a little bit more about that because it also speaks into one of the hearts of Lizanne, which is to see Christlike leaders. 315 00:36:05,93.705853 --> 00:36:12,443.705853 And so could you share a bit of a backstory to One Rock? And we're gonna build upon this idea of disciple making as we continue into this conversation. 316 00:36:13,0.2834404 --> 00:36:17,170.2834404 So actually, and you're right, there is a huge link obviously within those things. 317 00:36:17,433.5057481 --> 00:36:35,433.5057481 so again, going back to my original shared Jesus story, it is partly recognizing that so many people are not clear on the vision that God has for them, or even more so now I'm realizing they have stepped out and are starting a mission. 318 00:36:36,168.5057481 --> 00:36:40,428.5057481 Charity agency, church community, so many things. 319 00:36:40,878.5057481 --> 00:36:47,58.5057481 And they haven't had great quality leadership training and resource to be able to grow that. 320 00:36:47,388.5057481 --> 00:36:56,688.5057481 And I think that leadership training is so helpful to be able to grow whatever the work is that God is calling us to. 321 00:36:57,18.5057481 --> 00:37:01,188.5057481 And actually, I think Jesus is the greatest leader. 322 00:37:01,728.5057481 --> 00:37:14,868.5057481 and this is where we talk about the overlap between discipleship and leadership training, because a lot of our work is then studying Jesus as a leader and the unique things that he brings to leadership and how can we lead in that way. 323 00:37:15,203.5057481 --> 00:37:43,793.5057481 Whilst also, yes, learning from the best that the secular world has to teach us on leadership, but almost filtering that through a lens of, what does scripture teach us about leadership? How did characters in the Bible lead well in these ways? And ultimately, yeah, how did Jesus lead Well? So the heart of One Rock is getting that sort of great quality leadership training and then coaching to a lot of the church pioneers. 324 00:37:44,543.5057481 --> 00:37:55,343.5057481 and then certainly social entrepreneurs and charity workers who are doing fantastic mission work but haven't had the opportunity to get great quality leadership training. 325 00:37:55,373.5057481 --> 00:38:04,343.5057481 And we're saying, how can we get the, best quality stuff so that they don't feel they need to go to Harvard and spend, I don't know how much it would be, $20,000. 326 00:38:04,468.5057481 --> 00:38:08,425.1724148 A year on, or, on an MBA in leadership. 327 00:38:08,605.1724148 --> 00:38:14,695.1724148 Let's take the best of that and be able to share it with them at a fraction of that cost. 328 00:38:15,25.1724148 --> 00:38:23,875.1724148 Because helping them in the ministries that they're doing is surely far more important than helping people working in the banking and in the consulting sector. 329 00:38:23,875.1724148 --> 00:38:31,795.1724148 Forgive me, there are great Christians working in those sectors, rather than just furthering the size of those organizations. 330 00:38:32,125.1724148 --> 00:38:34,225.1724148 How about, let's use all of that. 331 00:38:34,405.1724148 --> 00:38:46,885.1724148 Wisdom and resource should be accessible for people that are setting up a food bank or running a church community or running a charity that is supporting the homeless or doing whatever it is God has called them to. 332 00:38:47,392.3645126 --> 00:38:47,782.3645126 Yeah, mark. 333 00:38:48,112.3645126 --> 00:38:53,542.3645126 and at this point I'm, happy to do a shameless plug for you, for everyone to go and take a look at your website. 334 00:38:53,902.3645126 --> 00:39:06,739.0311793 And, in preparation for this interview, I went onto your sites and I messaged a friend of mine and I said, this is a good website because the moment I clicked on the link, I knew exactly what you guys did. 335 00:39:07,69.0311793 --> 00:39:10,309.0311793 And I believe it was developing Christ-like leaders. 336 00:39:10,309.0311793 --> 00:39:14,719.0311793 And then it had a bit of a process to it, and I could see instantly what you guys did. 337 00:39:14,719.0311793 --> 00:39:21,829.0311793 And so could you now talk us through the process that you take people through in terms of discipling them into Christ-like leaders. 338 00:39:21,829.0311793 --> 00:39:28,742.3645126 Could you share the, bit of the journey and the intention and the thinking behind that process? Definitely thank you for the endorsement. 339 00:39:29,12.3645126 --> 00:39:32,882.3645126 Let me do the rest of the shameless plug, so w rock international.com 340 00:39:33,242.3645126 --> 00:39:35,392.3645126 if you want Yeah. 341 00:39:35,392.3645126 --> 00:39:36,622.3645126 I'll put it in the show notes. 342 00:39:36,622.3645126 --> 00:39:37,492.3645126 Don't worry about that. 343 00:39:37,492.3645126 --> 00:39:37,762.3645126 Yeah. 344 00:39:37,832.3645126 --> 00:39:40,682.3645126 Fantastic thank international com. 345 00:39:40,832.3645126 --> 00:39:41,582.3645126 I mention it once. 346 00:39:42,467.3645126 --> 00:39:49,757.3645126 So yeah, our strap line, developing Christ-like leaders and then our process through content coaching and community. 347 00:39:50,237.3645126 --> 00:40:00,827.3645126 'cause those are three ways that we have found to be foundational in helping people take on those Christ-like attributes and be able to be more effective in leadership. 348 00:40:01,277.3645126 --> 00:40:07,97.3645126 So content is the best training content that we've been able to find. 349 00:40:07,307.3645126 --> 00:40:16,127.3645126 And myself and my wife, Asher, we've been working, in this field now of leadership development, especially within a Christian context for over 20 years. 350 00:40:16,277.3645126 --> 00:40:18,167.3645126 So we've got a lot of. 351 00:40:19,102.3645126 --> 00:40:25,612.3645126 A lot of experience, a lot of expertise, a lot of learning that we've come across, a lot of resource that you think, okay, that's brilliant. 352 00:40:25,672.3645126 --> 00:40:26,962.3645126 Oh, that's not quite as good. 353 00:40:27,52.3645126 --> 00:40:28,132.3645126 That's really helpful. 354 00:40:28,312.3645126 --> 00:40:29,992.3645126 Let's bring that together with this. 355 00:40:30,262.3645126 --> 00:40:40,462.3645126 So we're trying to, in effect, collate the best in content for other leaders so that they don't have to read all of the books that we had to read to get to that. 356 00:40:40,462.3645126 --> 00:40:44,62.3645126 But let's just give you the best, and it is broken down. 357 00:40:44,62.3645126 --> 00:40:45,952.3645126 We have three curriculum areas. 358 00:40:46,377.3645126 --> 00:40:57,987.3645126 So we start off with spiritual formation because character and who we are in Christ is so key, our motivations in leadership, and that means we're less likely to fall into burnout as well. 359 00:40:58,227.3645126 --> 00:41:03,927.3645126 Further down the line, if we are really strong on who we are and why we are leading. 360 00:41:04,47.3645126 --> 00:41:05,367.3645126 So we always start with that. 361 00:41:05,817.3645126 --> 00:41:07,557.3645126 And then that leads to discerning vision. 362 00:41:07,887.3645126 --> 00:41:20,247.3645126 Okay, what is God calling me to do? How can I see with greater clarity the vision that he has for me? And then out of that comes, okay, how do I do that leadership skills? And let's look at what it means to be a leader. 363 00:41:20,637.3645126 --> 00:41:23,577.3645126 Let's look at the unique values that Jesus brings to leadership. 364 00:41:23,847.3645126 --> 00:41:25,917.3645126 Let's look at core competencies like. 365 00:41:26,342.3645126 --> 00:41:42,512.3645126 Planning, like time management, project management, communication team building team life cycles, team recruitment, team management, coaching others, developing others, giving feedback, those kinds of core leadership competencies. 366 00:41:42,842.3645126 --> 00:41:44,882.3645126 We cover all of that, but again, hopefully in that. 367 00:41:45,227.3645126 --> 00:42:07,457.3645126 Christian context of yeah, how ultimately did Jesus do it and how did great leaders from actually from scripture and what we call remarkable lives, great leaders from post scriptural church history, the great missionary leaders of the past 2000 years, what can we learn from them as well? So that's the whole content piece that we've got a lot that we want to equip people in. 368 00:42:08,327.3645126 --> 00:42:17,537.3645126 And then the second is coaching, because as I think I've already said, one-to-one conversations, one-to-one, coaching is one of the things that's impacted my life the most. 369 00:42:17,537.3645126 --> 00:42:27,797.3645126 It forces us to think more about what we believe about where we're going, and just the act of sitting down with someone asking them questions. 370 00:42:28,307.3645126 --> 00:42:37,547.3645126 Paying them, the respect that their story deserves, wanting to genuinely listen to their heart and having people open up that transforms people. 371 00:42:38,27.3645126 --> 00:42:42,467.3645126 So we use coaching as a core tool on this journey. 372 00:42:42,827.3645126 --> 00:42:44,147.3645126 And then the third is community. 373 00:42:44,267.3645126 --> 00:42:46,817.3645126 'cause we shouldn't be doing it isolated on our own. 374 00:42:46,817.3645126 --> 00:42:57,287.3645126 And it's so easy for leaders just to get focused on their own thing, but to develop communities of leaders where we're going through it as a cohort together to share what we're learning and inspire each other in that. 375 00:42:57,527.3645126 --> 00:43:02,837.3645126 But then to share what we're doing and encourage each other in that and find, oh, maybe you are doing that. 376 00:43:02,837.3645126 --> 00:43:03,437.3645126 I'm doing this. 377 00:43:03,437.3645126 --> 00:43:04,697.3645126 Let's work together on this. 378 00:43:04,697.3645126 --> 00:43:06,847.3645126 Or let's compliment each other. 379 00:43:06,847.3645126 --> 00:43:09,877.3645126 Let's be able to cross, promote and share what we're doing. 380 00:43:10,87.3645126 --> 00:43:11,347.3645126 let's do it as community. 381 00:43:11,478.286385 --> 00:43:17,297.3645126 So it's content coaching and community to help us become better Christ-like leaders. 382 00:43:18,15.697846 --> 00:43:25,605.697846 yeah, I think we live in a world that's just full of content now, right? It's a content's at our fingertips. 383 00:43:25,605.697846 --> 00:43:30,915.697846 And what we really need is we need a filter for what, is good and compared to what is bad. 384 00:43:31,65.697846 --> 00:43:33,555.697846 And so I appreciate that about what you guys are doing. 385 00:43:33,605.697846 --> 00:43:37,505.697846 But I think, there's so much value you can't buy community. 386 00:43:37,955.697846 --> 00:43:43,835.697846 it's, it comes through hard work, it comes through dedication, it comes through showing up, regularly. 387 00:43:44,675.697846 --> 00:44:13,967.0443646 mark, I'd be curious to hear from you, like you said, you, you've done this for 20 years now as you've been thinking about coaching people, training people, what is, what are some key learnings that, that you have taken away from your journey as you've been trying to disciple and coach and train other leaders in Christ's likeness to make impact in this society? Has there been anything that's key, key transformed your life as you've gone on this journey with others? many things. 388 00:44:15,662.0443646 --> 00:44:16,292.0443646 Lemme think. 389 00:44:16,292.0443646 --> 00:44:26,852.0443646 So what is the most useful thing? I remember a conversation about discipleship with someone who'd just written a great book on discipleship actually. 390 00:44:26,852.0443646 --> 00:44:28,802.0443646 And they were joining a Fresh Expressions forum. 391 00:44:29,102.0443646 --> 00:44:37,352.0443646 And we were talking about this, a couple of years ago, and we'd started to talk about what are the key things that. 392 00:44:38,102.0443646 --> 00:44:40,412.0443646 That are necessary to disciple someone else. 393 00:44:41,222.0443646 --> 00:44:42,542.0443646 I have this definition. 394 00:44:42,542.0443646 --> 00:44:52,622.0443646 Sometimes I use a, a discipleship should be someone who's a mature radical follower of Jesus sometimes, a zealous follower of Jesus. 395 00:44:52,832.0443646 --> 00:45:00,572.0443646 What does, how do you get someone to that stage? And I think we identified three things as being key in that. 396 00:45:00,902.0443646 --> 00:45:06,182.0443646 So one-to-one coaching that relationship, those conversations are key, I think. 397 00:45:06,187.0443646 --> 00:45:16,52.0443646 And we could all look, or certainly all of us in that room, we would talk through, yes, this individual took me aside and the conversations I had with them transformed me. 398 00:45:16,832.0443646 --> 00:45:19,142.0443646 That's one, I think role modeling. 399 00:45:19,607.0443646 --> 00:45:42,347.0443646 There's maybe one that we've lost a little bit of and that sense of seeing other people that are probably a little bit older and certainly are further down the line in terms of faith and saying, wow, they seem to have this amazing relationship with God, and I want something of that, role modeling, whether it's stated or not, and often it's not, but you're just observing those people. 400 00:45:42,587.0443646 --> 00:45:43,352.0443646 They, should be there. 401 00:45:44,422.0443646 --> 00:45:50,482.0443646 In any healthy church, in any healthy Christian community and say, yeah, I really want to like the poor passage. 402 00:45:50,482.0443646 --> 00:45:58,402.0443646 Like I say, imitate me as I imitate Christ, but you've got this example of someone, wow, that I want more of what they've got kind of thing. 403 00:45:58,852.0443646 --> 00:46:00,142.0443646 That would be the second thing. 404 00:46:00,622.0443646 --> 00:46:24,52.0443646 And then the third component we talked about was that service getting people to, and not just service in a roll my sleeves up and get involved in a way that cultivates humility and that's important and there's truth in that, but in that sense of, taking on a sense of responsibility, which interestingly then I think for me, feeds back to that leadership piece as well. 405 00:46:24,262.0443646 --> 00:46:31,942.0443646 And that's why leadership is so crucial because it's, helping people to be able to step into responsibilities. 406 00:46:32,542.0443646 --> 00:46:33,892.0443646 And so often that. 407 00:46:34,607.0443646 --> 00:46:40,157.0443646 Drive spiritual growth in a way that the other things often don't. 408 00:46:40,937.0443646 --> 00:46:49,757.0443646 the classic thing, I remember the first time I was ever asked to lead a Bible study or, and then later on to preach or to teach, community. 409 00:46:50,147.0443646 --> 00:46:55,517.0443646 And I grew so much more in the process, obviously in preparing and developing that. 410 00:46:55,847.0443646 --> 00:47:02,807.0443646 Then I'm sure any of the people that heard my first sermon did, or that were a part of the Bible study group, hopefully God used it. 411 00:47:02,987.0443646 --> 00:47:08,147.0443646 They, did grow some, but I grew far more as I stepped into that responsibility. 412 00:47:08,747.0443646 --> 00:47:13,547.0443646 So those three things, I think are amazing tools. 413 00:47:13,577.0443646 --> 00:47:28,758.0443646 One-to-one conversations, role modeling, what it means to be a holy, zealous follower of Jesus, and then giving people responsibility, not just opportunity for service, but real responsibilities within that so that they grow. 414 00:47:29,694.2926426 --> 00:47:29,934.2926426 Yeah. 415 00:47:30,114.2926426 --> 00:47:39,144.2926426 and what I appreciate so much about what you're saying here is that any, one of us can apply those principles to our reality right now. 416 00:47:39,168.1072491 --> 00:47:49,388.1072491 just to begin the process of being intentional, of connecting with us, those people creating, deepening those relationships so that you can begin that coaching process. 417 00:47:49,568.1072491 --> 00:48:01,963.1072491 Handing over elements of our ministries maybe that we've been holding on for too long, those keys, handing them over to someone who's not gonna do it as well as we are gonna do it, right? These are all things that, that we can apply to, our own lives. 418 00:48:02,713.1072491 --> 00:48:11,53.1072491 Mark, we are gonna have to begin to wrap up this conversation, but I want to give you an opportunity just to, to speak to our global audience for just a moment. 419 00:48:11,773.1072491 --> 00:48:20,329.7739157 we, one of the things that's beautiful about this podcast community is that we are global and, it's diverse and it's hard even to identify it. 420 00:48:21,79.7739157 --> 00:48:38,389.7739157 but I want you to imagine that you're sitting in a hall with a global community and you wanna just encourage them in, in, to take one or two steps in a, and form one or two rhythms in their life that will just enrich their ministries or enrich their churches towards this idea of disciple making. 421 00:48:39,499.7739157 --> 00:48:46,129.7739157 what are one or two things that you would like to leave with us as we speak about, creating disciples, creating Christ-like leaders. 422 00:48:46,593.6368918 --> 00:48:49,713.6368918 Can I give two? And I'm gonna be cheeky. 423 00:48:49,713.6368918 --> 00:48:52,173.6368918 I'm gonna assume that two are already there. 424 00:48:52,293.6368918 --> 00:48:58,773.6368918 So I'm not gonna talk about prayer and study of scripture because I'm sure all of the audience knows that. 425 00:48:58,778.6368918 --> 00:49:04,743.6368918 And those are profound ways in which God changes us, continues to ongoing transform us. 426 00:49:04,773.6368918 --> 00:49:06,333.6368918 And actually, I should throw in worship as well. 427 00:49:06,333.6368918 --> 00:49:07,773.6368918 That is always my big three. 428 00:49:07,773.6368918 --> 00:49:11,378.6368918 Spiritual disciplines of those three, if you wanna get to know God better. 429 00:49:11,878.6368918 --> 00:49:20,433.6368918 But in terms of for this day and age and for leaders around the world, I would encourage community I think is so important. 430 00:49:20,493.6368918 --> 00:49:37,393.6368918 Going back to that piece, do you have people that you are journeying with? That you can be transparent with, that you can share something of your challenges and that whether that is, you meet them once a month, even if it's you do a retreat with them just twice a year. 431 00:49:37,663.6368918 --> 00:49:44,863.6368918 But almost those friendships that last longer than just the more seasonal moments of life. 432 00:49:45,343.6368918 --> 00:50:08,353.6368918 people that you are journeying with for years and that's why it's not necessarily you are working with them intimately every day, but that community that you can go to, you've set up a WhatsApp group and you pledge to encourage each other or pray for each other once a week and you can put your prayer requests in there and, but then you'll commit to meet up as often as works for you. 433 00:50:08,353.6368918 --> 00:50:16,93.6368918 But even if it is just once a year on a retreat to pray for each other in depth, I think there's something so profound in that. 434 00:50:16,243.6368918 --> 00:50:20,353.6368918 So I'd encourage the community piece and then the other one that. 435 00:50:21,43.6368918 --> 00:50:27,178.6368918 We have found as one rock that is so profound is to study what we call the remarkable lives. 436 00:50:27,883.6368918 --> 00:50:36,793.6368918 So look to the heroes of church history or whoever would be your missional heroes. 437 00:50:37,183.6368918 --> 00:50:41,623.6368918 So if you are a church pioneer or a revivalist, then study John Wesley. 438 00:50:41,623.6368918 --> 00:50:45,43.6368918 If you are a missionary to a foreign culture study, someone as that. 439 00:50:45,313.6368918 --> 00:50:52,903.6368918 But if you are a Christian business person, study another Christian business person from history in the uk. 440 00:50:53,233.6368918 --> 00:50:59,3.6368918 We told the stories of people like Arthur Guinness and Edward Cadbury, in the us. 441 00:50:59,738.6368918 --> 00:51:09,833.6368918 I, I think Truet Kathy, the founder of Chick-fil-A, is a phenomenal example of that, of how you can be a business person who is an Onfi Christian and leave a huge legacy. 442 00:51:11,633.6368918 --> 00:51:18,203.6368918 There's something about studying those inspirational lives and learning leadership practices from them. 443 00:51:18,413.6368918 --> 00:51:19,943.6368918 Learning spiritual formation practices. 444 00:51:19,943.6368918 --> 00:51:23,693.6368918 How did they do their relationship with God? That is so profound. 445 00:51:24,23.6368918 --> 00:51:32,543.6368918 I have found that when I chat with the, mature Christian leaders that I really, when I chat to and I think, wow, they're doing amazing things. 446 00:51:32,543.6368918 --> 00:51:49,993.7112748 I want to, Have something of that level of impact or legacy, et cetera, when I chat with them about what they're doing to remain fresh, to remain close to God, or just inspired, yeah, on fire, in their faith, whatever language you would use. 447 00:51:50,682.7112748 --> 00:51:54,72.7112748 I find that they, talk about two sources where they're going to be found. 448 00:51:54,312.7112748 --> 00:51:55,632.7112748 One is obviously scripture. 449 00:51:55,842.7112748 --> 00:52:00,822.7112748 And so that's why I've said that we need to keep reading it and let it, transform our minds. 450 00:52:01,182.7112748 --> 00:52:09,342.7112748 But then the second is they very quickly often pivot and say, yeah, I'm reading the Bible and I'm really inspired with, this thing in Colossians at the moment. 451 00:52:09,582.7112748 --> 00:52:19,662.7112748 But also I'm reading the Diary of this missionary from 300 years ago and just the prayers that this person wrote, it is feeding my soul. 452 00:52:20,82.7112748 --> 00:52:25,992.7112748 And I've seen such a commonality of people across the global church in saying this. 453 00:52:26,232.7112748 --> 00:52:27,762.7112748 So I would encourage you. 454 00:52:28,512.7112748 --> 00:52:35,682.7112748 Figure out who your core community is that you're journeying in life, where then can encourage you, hold you accountable, pray for each other, all that kind of thing. 455 00:52:36,12.7112748 --> 00:52:44,832.7112748 But then find one or even a couple of your missional heroes in ideally the field that you are in as close to that as possible. 456 00:52:45,222.7112748 --> 00:52:48,522.7112748 And study those people and get the biographies. 457 00:52:48,732.7112748 --> 00:52:51,192.7112748 If they don't have biographies, figure it out. 458 00:52:51,432.7112748 --> 00:53:03,192.7112748 and this is one of the things we encourage the global church in the West, we're, are we great at, I don't know, sometimes we're great at putting certain people on a pedestal and that's not always great as well, but at least we've got those stories written. 459 00:53:03,492.7112748 --> 00:53:14,292.7112748 You can buy lots of biographies on Billy Graham, but there are so many other amazing evangelists in, let's say East Africa and the revivals that are happening there is it in the 1920s. 460 00:53:14,562.7112748 --> 00:53:19,302.7112748 And those stories aren't often written down, but they might still be there in some of the oral culture. 461 00:53:19,302.7112748 --> 00:53:27,312.7112748 You can find ways to be able to, interview that elders of the community and people that remember, or they've heard stories who are. 462 00:53:27,777.7112748 --> 00:53:31,797.7112748 Who are your missional heroes, potentially within your own culture as well. 463 00:53:31,797.7112748 --> 00:53:33,627.7112748 And learn from them. 464 00:53:33,777.7112748 --> 00:53:39,897.7112748 Be inspired from 'em, because that can feed us, dare I say it almost as much as scripture. 465 00:53:39,897.7112748 --> 00:53:40,377.7112748 It shouldn't. 466 00:53:40,647.7112748 --> 00:53:46,587.7112748 I'm, an evangelical, I'm still putting scripture eyes, but, those stories can feed us so much. 467 00:53:46,947.7112748 --> 00:53:47,247.7112748 Yeah. 468 00:53:47,567.7112748 --> 00:53:48,287.7112748 Yeah. 469 00:53:48,287.7112748 --> 00:53:58,547.7112748 And I so appreciate that because the truth is that we can become very complacent if we are simply just comparing ourselves and feeding off each other. 470 00:53:58,877.7112748 --> 00:54:00,227.7112748 Like in our inner circle. 471 00:54:00,227.7112748 --> 00:54:01,307.7112748 In our echo chamber. 472 00:54:01,637.7112748 --> 00:54:09,527.7112748 And you and I can, you can look across and you can say, oh, we both in this together and we're both at the same level, but if we compare ourselves to the heroes. 473 00:54:10,37.7112748 --> 00:54:18,317.7112748 Of the faith, then suddenly the standard is risen and then you suddenly realize, oh, God's got a lot more work to do in me than that I like to admit. 474 00:54:18,707.7112748 --> 00:54:22,616.6055099 And so it challenges us to so much more and to become more of who God is calling us to do. 475 00:54:22,616.6055099 --> 00:54:24,266.6055099 So I think that's that for me. 476 00:54:24,416.6055099 --> 00:54:29,96.6055099 I'm challenged once again to, to dive back into, some of those, hero stories. 477 00:54:29,96.6055099 --> 00:54:30,236.6055099 So Mark, thank you for that. 478 00:54:30,419.0530821 --> 00:54:37,799.0530821 as we wrap up this interview, I would love for our audience to be able to just connect with some of the resources that stand out to you. 479 00:54:38,99.0530821 --> 00:54:47,354.3696617 We've already mentioned Fresh Expressions website, one Rock website, or is there any other form of resource that you would like to direct us to? those would be the primary ones. 480 00:54:47,414.3696617 --> 00:54:48,884.3696617 If you want more info. 481 00:54:48,914.3696617 --> 00:54:53,234.3696617 Messy church we talked about than Google Messy church and their website will come up. 482 00:54:54,241.0363284 --> 00:55:01,771.0363284 Anne, but I guess people listening to this podcast are probably familiar with those resources, but there's great things on the Anne website as well. 483 00:55:02,451.0363284 --> 00:55:02,901.0363284 Wonderful. 484 00:55:02,901.0363284 --> 00:55:04,281.0363284 Thank you for that shameless plug. 485 00:55:04,281.0363284 --> 00:55:05,91.0363284 I appreciate that. 486 00:55:06,591.0363284 --> 00:55:11,491.0363284 how can people connect with you? Maybe they're saying yo, I'm resonating with Mark what Marcus said. 487 00:55:11,491.0363284 --> 00:55:12,781.0363284 I would love to connect with him. 488 00:55:12,931.0363284 --> 00:55:20,921.0363284 How can people connect? they can follow me on Twitter or on X, I still call it Twitter and I'm not very active on there at all. 489 00:55:21,851.0363284 --> 00:55:23,261.0363284 but you can try and find me on that. 490 00:55:23,291.0363284 --> 00:55:27,341.0363284 The best way is give me an email mark@onerockinternational.com. 491 00:55:28,271.0363284 --> 00:55:29,81.0363284 I'd love to hear from you. 492 00:55:29,681.0363284 --> 00:55:30,131.0363284 Awesome. 493 00:55:30,131.0363284 --> 00:55:33,71.0363284 I'll be sure to put that in the show notes for anyone that's interested. 494 00:55:33,431.0363284 --> 00:55:41,929.3696617 As we close off, is there any last challenge? I think you've already done this, or encouragement that you would like to leave with us as we, we wrap up here? Oh yeah. 495 00:55:41,929.3696617 --> 00:55:42,499.3696617 No, there is. 496 00:55:42,499.3696617 --> 00:55:42,979.3696617 That's true. 497 00:55:43,129.3696617 --> 00:55:43,609.3696617 Thank you. 498 00:55:43,609.3696617 --> 00:55:56,359.3696617 Because there was one that I was thinking of when I was thinking of the remarkable lives, which is a great challenge, encouragement, is it from Hudson Taylor, an amazing missionary to China, and we love to tell his story. 499 00:55:56,689.3696617 --> 00:56:03,589.3696617 And he said towards the end of his life, he said, I've observed there are three stages in any great work of God. 500 00:56:04,489.3696617 --> 00:56:10,69.3696617 First of all, it's impossible, and then it's difficult and then it's done. 501 00:56:10,655.7347411 --> 00:56:19,925.7347411 And so wherever you are and so often, the impossible stage is often the exciting stage when you haven't yet started at and you're like, it's a dream. 502 00:56:20,535.7347411 --> 00:56:32,235.7347411 Me and Asha, my wife often joke, we've discovered that the difficult stage is the longest stage, but you need to keep, it's that long obedience in the same direction. 503 00:56:32,445.7347411 --> 00:56:34,605.7347411 And then God can do amazing things. 504 00:56:34,605.7347411 --> 00:56:37,969.4077411 But we, this is why we love the remarkable quotes like that. 505 00:56:37,969.4077411 --> 00:56:41,749.4077411 But that's a brilliant encouragement that we love from Hudson Taylor. 506 00:56:42,439.4077411 --> 00:56:51,229.4077411 I'll say that for anyone who has got a vision and it feels impossible at the moment, or even if it's no longer impossible, it just feels difficult. 507 00:56:51,889.4077411 --> 00:56:52,849.4077411 It can be done. 508 00:56:53,497.7410744 --> 00:56:53,827.7410744 Sure. 509 00:56:54,727.7410744 --> 00:56:54,907.7410744 Yeah. 510 00:56:54,907.7410744 --> 00:57:00,247.7410744 Mark, I, that's a, really good way to, to end this interview, and I love that quote. 511 00:57:00,653.6685121 --> 00:57:07,804.4077411 I'm just challenged and I would love to invite you to pray for those who are listening up to this point in the podcast. 512 00:57:08,74.4077411 --> 00:57:15,694.4077411 Perhaps they are facing something that is, seems impossible, that God's calling them to you or they're in the trenches and things just seem difficult and overwhelming. 513 00:57:16,144.4077411 --> 00:57:24,454.4077411 Would you mind just taking a moment as we wrap up just to, to wrap up this interview with a prayer? For those of us who are seeing the impossible are in the trenches of the difficult. 514 00:57:24,891.0744078 --> 00:57:25,521.0744078 absolutely. 515 00:57:25,731.0744078 --> 00:57:26,331.0744078 Yeah, Let's pray. 516 00:57:26,995.2301564 --> 00:57:34,945.2301564 Father, for those especially in that situation, please bring your transformation in Jesus' name. 517 00:57:34,945.2301564 --> 00:57:45,565.2301564 Bring your revelation to be able to inspire and continue to fund the flames of the vision so that it stays alive so that people remain passionate about it. 518 00:57:46,75.2301564 --> 00:57:50,365.2301564 Lord, please would you bring to people in that situation, finance. 519 00:57:50,860.2301564 --> 00:57:56,740.2301564 If that is the issue, and we know that so often it is, bring funding to projects and organizations that need it. 520 00:57:57,40.2301564 --> 00:58:11,110.2301564 Bring people, bring the resources, bring the connections, bring the people who will in turn be able to bring other people or will unlock new solutions or might bring other sources of finance, just new opportunities. 521 00:58:11,200.2301564 --> 00:58:31,153.5634898 Lord, for all of those leaders, all of those pioneers that have that, dream in their heart, that vision, would you give them every good thing that is necessary for it to become reality? May you, guide every good purpose of their heart so that it comes to pass. 522 00:58:31,753.5634898 --> 00:58:43,723.5634898 Yeah, may your favor be on them, your provision be on them, your guidance and your anointing so that you'd be able to use us all in furthering your kingdom. 523 00:58:44,173.5634898 --> 00:58:45,493.5634898 That's our heart, Lord Jesus. 524 00:58:45,493.5634898 --> 00:58:47,83.5634898 It's to further your kingdom. 525 00:58:47,83.5634898 --> 00:58:49,333.5634898 So please use us to be able to do that. 526 00:58:49,783.5634898 --> 00:58:55,753.5634898 Help us to grow in our leadership so that we can have a greater impact for your kingdom. 527 00:58:56,413.5634898 --> 00:58:58,93.5634898 In Jesus' name, Amen. 528 00:58:58,665.2301564 --> 00:59:00,170.2301564 Mark, thank you so much for your time. 529 00:59:00,310.2301564 --> 00:59:01,410.2301564 Really appreciate it. 530 00:59:01,786.6670334 --> 00:59:02,146.6670334 Amen. 531 00:59:02,176.6670334 --> 00:59:02,716.6670334 My pleasure. 532 00:59:02,716.6670334 --> 00:59:03,106.6670334 Thank you. 533 00:59:04,273.8177094 --> 00:59:08,363.8177094 Well, I hope that you enjoyed this episode of the Lausanne Movement Podcast. 534 00:59:08,643.8177094 --> 00:59:14,573.8177094 If you did enjoy the show, I want to encourage you to leave us a rating and review and share it with a friend. 535 00:59:15,62.4402452 --> 00:59:15,862.4402452 Till next week. 536 00:59:16,232.4402452 --> 00:59:16,682.4402452 Cheers.

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