Neuroscience, Theology, and Human Flourishing in Ministry with Stan Wallace

Can understanding human nature transform how we approach missions, ministry, and personal spiritual growth?

In this episode of the Lausanne Movement Podcast, Dr. Stan Wallace, Lausanne Catalyst for Academic Ministry & Educators Network (AMEN), author, and president of Global Scholars, explores the intersection of neuroscience, theology, and human flourishing. From the duality of body and soul to the challenges of engaging with AI and societal ethics, Dr. Wallace unpacks the fundamental question: “What does it mean to be human?” This conversation offers deep insights for those passionate about ministry, missions, and spiritual formation.

Takeaways:

1. Human Nature and Flourishing: Explore the differences between physicalism, Cartesian dualism, and holistic dualism—and their implications for spiritual formation.
2. Ministry and Missions: Understand why defining the soul-body connection is vital for engaging diverse cultural contexts in evangelism and discipleship.
3. AI and Human Identity: Discover how a clear view of human uniqueness shapes our interactions with artificial intelligence.
4. Ethics and Justice: See how human identity grounds our advocacy for justice, equality, and bioethical decisions.
5. Practical Application: Learn how holistic dualism reshapes approaches to counseling, pastoral care, and professional life.

If you enjoyed this episode please subscribe to the podcast, leave us a review, and share this with others. Dive deeper into these ideas by checking out Stan Wallace’s new book and visiting his website!

Links & Resources:

• Stan Wallace's Book: Have We Lost Our Minds? Neuroscience, Neurotheology, the Soul, and Human Flourishing - https://www.amazon.com/Have-Lost-Our-Minds-Neurotheology/dp/1666789135
• Stan’s Website: https://stanwallace.org/
• Academic Ministry & Educators Network (AMEN): https://lausanne.org/network/academic-ministry-educators
• Global Scholars: https://global-scholars.org/

Guest Bio:

Dr Stan Wallace has been in university ministry since 1985, serving as Global Scholars’ president since 2014. Global Scholars equips Christian scholars in pluralistic universities to have a redemptive influence for Christ, primarily as a principal partner of the Society of Christian Scholars. He has served as an adjunct professor of philosophy at several institutions and has published on issues of faith and scholarship integration, including his most recent, Have We Lost Our Minds? Neuroscience, Neurotheology, the Soul, and Human Flourishing (Eugene, OR: Wipf and Stock, 2024). Dr Wallace also produces two monthly podcasts: College Faith and, with Dr. J.P. Moreland, Thinking Christianly.

Episode Transcript

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.999there are two answers to this fundamental question.

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.270064465What am I, what is it to be human? What it to become an apprentice of Jesus? taking on the way He lived as a human. 3 00:00:13,326.273490883 --> 00:00:19,516.273490883 In this earth, in this body, increasingly exemplifying what it is truly to be human. 4 00:00:19,823.826470355 --> 00:00:31,180.756285525 Now we're right back to, well, what is that? A very warm welcome and happy new year from those of us from the Lausanne Movement podcast. 5 00:00:31,360.756285525 --> 00:00:40,890.756285525 We trust and pray that 2025 will be a year where we will all continue to be inspired and challenged to accelerate global mission together. 6 00:00:41,159.419786214 --> 00:00:42,489.419786214 My name is Jason Watson. 7 00:00:42,499.419786214 --> 00:00:46,609.419786214 And today on the podcast, we have the wonderful opportunity to hear from Dr. 8 00:00:46,609.419786214 --> 00:00:52,699.418786214 Stan Wallace, a Catalyst from the Academic Ministry and Educators Issue Network. 9 00:00:52,983.839713584 --> 00:01:02,643.839713584 During our time together, Stan brings together neuroscience, the theology of the human person, mission, and what it means to flourish in the world that we live in today. 10 00:01:02,913.169095015 --> 00:01:11,883.169095015 Now this interview was recorded last year just before the 4th Lausanne Congress and offers us a lot to think about as we head into the start of the new year. 11 00:01:12,207.325629854 --> 00:01:17,717.326629854 So I want to invite you to grab your headphones and let's dive into today's interview with Dr. 12 00:01:17,717.326629854 --> 00:01:19,87.325629854 Stan Wallace. 13 00:01:21,897.153171806 --> 00:01:22,447.153171806 Well, Dr. 14 00:01:22,447.153171806 --> 00:01:24,437.153171806 Stan Wallace, welcome to the podcast. 15 00:01:24,717.51680817 --> 00:01:25,277.51680817 Thanks. 16 00:01:25,277.51680817 --> 00:01:26,47.51680817 Good to be here. 17 00:01:26,218.60771726 --> 00:01:27,288.607717261 great to have you with us. 18 00:01:27,328.60771726 --> 00:01:38,368.60771726 Uh, you've got a fascinating role leading an organization called Global Scholars, and you're also about to release a book that tackles some really deep questions about neuroscience and theology and human flourishing. 19 00:01:38,778.60771726 --> 00:01:47,574.19417341 So could you begin by just giving us a quick snapshot of your journey? What brought you to this intersection of faith and neuroscience and theology? Right. 20 00:01:47,574.19417341 --> 00:01:53,286.67433357 So, I did student ministry for my first seven years, of vocational ministry. 21 00:01:53,286.67433357 --> 00:01:57,306.67433357 And then the last, I don't know, 30 or so, I've been in faculty ministry. 22 00:01:58,276.67433357 --> 00:02:08,58.67433357 uh, all through the years, a recurring question, that underlies so many other questions that non believers and believers ask is, so what am I? Hmm. 23 00:02:08,616.67433357 --> 00:02:17,458.67333357 they realize that understanding what I, I am as a person is going to, answer a lot of questions about, well, then how do I live well? How Yeah. 24 00:02:18,438.67433357 --> 00:02:18,698.67433357 Yeah. 25 00:02:19,41.67433357 --> 00:02:21,31.67433357 I just got interested in the question long ago. 26 00:02:21,861.67433357 --> 00:02:31,851.72176261 to do some reading, had the privilege of studying under a, a Christian scholar who has maybe more than, Oh, gosh, 99 percent of the people in the world thought about this issue. 27 00:02:31,911.72076261 --> 00:02:32,651.72176261 His name is Dr. 28 00:02:32,651.72176261 --> 00:02:32,861.72176261 J. 29 00:02:32,861.72176261 --> 00:02:33,71.72126261 P. 30 00:02:33,71.72126261 --> 00:02:33,511.72076261 Moreland. 31 00:02:33,551.72176261 --> 00:02:37,562.90409715 Took my master's and doctored under him, focusing on these type of issues. 32 00:02:37,572.90409715 --> 00:02:41,52.90409715 So have done some teaching and now writing on it for a number of years. 33 00:02:41,352.90409715 --> 00:02:44,59.90309715 And by the way, the book just did come out, so Oh, brilliant. 34 00:02:44,72.90409715 --> 00:02:44,872.90409715 available now. 35 00:02:45,279.90409715 --> 00:02:46,179.90409715 Okay, cool. 36 00:02:46,179.90409715 --> 00:02:48,419.90409715 Well, we're going to talk a little bit more about that later on. 37 00:02:48,604.65764832 --> 00:02:49,284.65764832 so I know that J. 38 00:02:49,284.65764832 --> 00:02:49,454.65764832 P. 39 00:02:49,454.65764832 --> 00:02:54,24.65764832 Moreland and yourself have been influenced by thinkers like Dallas Willard and C. 40 00:02:54,24.65764832 --> 00:02:54,204.65764832 S. 41 00:02:54,204.65764832 --> 00:02:54,609.69858053 Lewis. 42 00:02:55,34.65664832 --> 00:03:00,854.65664832 And I'd be curious, how have these voices shaped your own theological paradigms of faith and human flourishing? Hmm. 43 00:03:01,356.52866659 --> 00:03:02,976.52866659 in deep, deep ways. 44 00:03:03,256.52866659 --> 00:03:09,686.52766659 So very basic, very broad there are two answers to this fundamental question. 45 00:03:09,686.52866659 --> 00:03:15,841.59178501 What am I, what is it to be human? one answer is I'm a physical being. 46 00:03:16,181.59178501 --> 00:03:17,371.59178501 I'm purely matter. 47 00:03:17,371.69178501 --> 00:03:18,761.59278501 It's called physicalism. 48 00:03:19,571.59278501 --> 00:03:22,11.59278501 And the other answer is in some way, I'm a. 49 00:03:22,178.25945168 --> 00:03:26,948.25945168 Combination of a material and an immaterial dimension, a body and a soul. 50 00:03:27,428.25945168 --> 00:03:28,568.25945168 It's called dualism. 51 00:03:29,58.25945168 --> 00:03:31,135.48898798 And, what J. 52 00:03:31,135.48998798 --> 00:03:31,555.48998798 P. 53 00:03:31,555.48998798 --> 00:03:40,865.48898798 and Dallas and Louis and Aquinas and others have helped me see is are actually two different ways to understand this duality. 54 00:03:41,355.48998798 --> 00:03:46,255.48998798 And the common way that people tend to think about it from the Enlightenment. 55 00:03:46,580.48998798 --> 00:03:50,970.48998798 Through a philosopher named Rene Descartes, which saw the soul kind of stuck in the body. 56 00:03:51,430.48998798 --> 00:04:10,871.28650923 Kind of a real unnatural place to be, and so growth and, and everything else about flourishing is somehow getting released from this physical stuff, this body, the world, all the things that are mundane, quote unquote, which comes from the Latin word mundi, which is Earth. 57 00:04:11,478.28550923 --> 00:04:11,698.28550923 Yeah. 58 00:04:11,981.28650923 --> 00:04:14,711.28650923 from this physical realm is really where the action is. 59 00:04:14,992.50885652 --> 00:04:39,563.02641286 and I realized through these folks that no, actually, And philosophy, and what we find from neuroscience, all three agree that no, this union of body and soul is good, it's natural, it's deep, and the more we lean into that reality that we are a functional unity, the more we'll flourish, the better we'll minister to others. 60 00:04:39,993.02641286 --> 00:04:43,973.02641286 as also embodied souls that have this deep functional unity. 61 00:04:44,436.75468458 --> 00:04:57,596.59111958 and it makes so much, so much sense, but it's tended to be the view not as popular in Protestant circles because it draws heavily on Thomas Aquinas all the way back through to Aristotle ultimately. 62 00:04:57,996.59211958 --> 00:05:05,829.92545291 And, we tended to throw a lot of those medieval thinkers out with the Reformation because we Didn't agree with their views of salvation. 63 00:05:06,171.92545291 --> 00:05:06,551.92545291 Right. 64 00:05:06,809.92545291 --> 00:05:09,9.92545291 kind of threw the baby out with the bath water, so to speak. 65 00:05:09,9.92545291 --> 00:05:14,9.50856054 And I've been on a journey to rediscover some of these thoughts, that really make a lot of sense. 66 00:05:14,215.50856054 --> 00:05:20,15.50956054 And as I said, some Protestants are very, uh, very engaged in this, including Dallas and JP and others. 67 00:05:20,440.92585462 --> 00:05:26,219.66739717 And we're going to dive as we go into this interview, we're going to dive into what this means for, missions and ministry. 68 00:05:26,459.73415681 --> 00:06:07,157.03298956 one of the very prominent themes that run through what are you, what you're talking about is the question of what does it mean to be human? As you put it, what am I or who am I? And the state of the great commission reports that the Lausanne movement published Earlier this year claims that one of the most important questions facing the global church right now That's Is this question of what does it mean to be human? So i'd be curious Could you share some of your own reflections on the report's findings? What stood out to you? Well, I was very encouraged that first of all, it was identified as a central issue and framed in that way because that was a very, insightful way to say, okay, here are the issues that we need to be thinking about here, the implications. 69 00:06:07,157.03298956 --> 00:06:34,109.09107632 I thought I did a really good job of drawing out a few of the implications, some of the very important implications, whether it's with AI or human sexuality or whatnot, because all of these things, Follow directly from how you answer that first fundamental question of what am I? Yeah so what are some of the popular level understandings of what am I or what does it mean to be human? both within like as we talk about society, but also within the church. 70 00:06:34,109.09107632 --> 00:06:49,286.95906187 So you mentioned one or two but could you unpack that a little bit more for us? since the Enlightenment, which is a period of intellectual history, that we've been living in now for several centuries, been this idea that if I can't see it, it isn't real. 71 00:06:49,857.2326283 --> 00:06:54,676.95906187 Mm hmm the view that, you know, we must be only that which we can see. 72 00:06:54,676.95906187 --> 00:06:56,276.95906187 This physical body. 73 00:06:56,696.95906187 --> 00:07:11,373.57825053 And, so all to questions about human flourishing and, growth in any way comes down to how do we physically nurture this body? And, you know, scripture of course is clear. 74 00:07:11,373.57825053 --> 00:07:17,414.36551557 And I think, clearly from philosophy, we have good reason to think that no, we're, we're something deeper. 75 00:07:17,414.36551557 --> 00:07:30,54.54598726 And in fact, We in scripture see four things true of us that all four answer the question, what are we? First, yes, we are a body and a body that is valuable. 76 00:07:30,194.54598726 --> 00:07:32,674.54498726 It's a part of God's good creation. 77 00:07:32,694.54598726 --> 00:07:38,369.54598726 It's the only part of creation where God said after the creation day, it is very good. 78 00:07:38,764.62062773 --> 00:07:47,164.29655331 and so we, we cannot count the reality, but also the importance and the value of the physical reality we live in. 79 00:07:47,864.29605331 --> 00:07:49,54.29655331 secondly, scripture is clear. 80 00:07:49,54.29655331 --> 00:07:53,204.01030524 We're a soul, that we have an immaterial dimension that we're not just a body. 81 00:07:53,636.75227208 --> 00:07:58,976.75227208 thirdly, scripture is clear that those two realities are deeply united. 82 00:07:59,926.75227208 --> 00:08:05,876.75227208 much so that some read the, especially Old Testament, have this sense of, well, maybe we are a unity. 83 00:08:05,926.75227208 --> 00:08:07,216.75227208 We're a composite. 84 00:08:07,573.41893875 --> 00:08:21,354.55602036 but as Scripture continues to unfold, we have Revelation, giving us more and more clarity, as you get later into the Old Testament and certainly, certainly the New Testament, you get this sense of, no, the soul can live without the body. 85 00:08:21,364.55602036 --> 00:08:25,604.55602036 I mean, Jesus says to the thief on the cross, today you will be with me in paradise. 86 00:08:26,194.55602036 --> 00:08:28,664.55602036 Now your body won't, of course, but you will. 87 00:08:28,944.55602036 --> 00:08:30,874.55602036 So you must not be the same thing as your body. 88 00:08:31,440.18841143 --> 00:08:37,52.45711045 and so the fourth point is that, yes, that we're a body and a soul that are deeply united. 89 00:08:37,292.45711045 --> 00:08:38,822.45711045 We're ultimately a soul that has a body. 90 00:08:39,439.06395806 --> 00:08:44,499.06395806 and that is supported by work that, uh, I've done in philosophy, for instance. 91 00:08:44,499.06395806 --> 00:08:49,99.06395806 It comes through the, uh, The Thomistic line, Thomas Aquinas through Dallas Willard and others. 92 00:08:49,493.55474366 --> 00:08:56,185.08277359 and I think it's what we're finding in neuroscience too, that we have this deep unity between the two, but, ultimately, we are this. 93 00:08:58,0.08377359 --> 00:09:18,410.08377359 that transcends our body, that was in the body that we had when we were one, is in the body we are now in, and is the body we will have at 85, and then in the final resurrection, the same body, same soul that has the body that changes all through the years. 94 00:09:18,410.08377359 --> 00:09:21,540.08377359 So we're the thing that stands under that sub stance. 95 00:09:22,255.08377359 --> 00:09:30,428.41610692 That substance that stands under the body and, unifies all of the properties and dispositions and other traits of the, of the body. 96 00:09:30,488.41710692 --> 00:09:33,668.41710692 So I got a little philosophy there, but that, there's a lot there to be said. 97 00:09:34,5.41710692 --> 00:09:34,895.41710692 Yeah, I mean, you're right. 98 00:09:34,895.41710692 --> 00:09:54,976.72049683 There's, there's so much more to be said on this topic, but I think, one of the questions, and I'm sure many of those who are listening to this podcast are asking is, why is this important? Why are we even talking about, you know, the, the body and what does it mean to be human and the connection to the soul? Why are we talking about that on a missions podcast? So. 99 00:09:55,221.72049683 --> 00:10:09,684.05383017 So let me ask you, why do you believe it's essential for us to pursue a correct understanding of this and what are the dangers of, of getting it wrong? and I guess suppose on the other hand, you know, what are the benefits of getting it right? in terms of loving God. 100 00:10:10,542.61891589 --> 00:10:16,989.28558256 it helps us think well about, role of the body in our formation. 101 00:10:16,999.28558256 --> 00:10:27,559.28458256 This is where Dallas Willard spent a lot of his time talking about the spiritual disciplines and why those type of things we do in our bodies, like fasting, an impact on our soul. 102 00:10:27,749.28458256 --> 00:10:31,499.28558256 Well, it's because there's this deep causal connection between the two. 103 00:10:31,869.28558256 --> 00:10:37,484.28558256 And so we can affect our formation through bodily practices. 104 00:10:37,836.28458256 --> 00:10:44,997.61891589 Right, also makes sense of the challenges we face and how we can overcome them in our walks with God. 105 00:10:44,997.61891589 --> 00:10:55,701.74452006 So soul has various capacities or, So we've got mental capacities that allow us to think and reason and decide. 106 00:10:56,18.08720955 --> 00:10:58,581.34721295 and, Volitional capacities actually help us decide. 107 00:10:58,581.34721295 --> 00:11:03,541.34721295 Emotional capacities help us feel well, have the Right, emotions, and so on and so forth. 108 00:11:04,231.34721295 --> 00:11:05,591.34621295 And they affect one another. 109 00:11:05,641.34621295 --> 00:11:10,171.34721295 So, wrong beliefs lead to emotional challenges, perhaps. 110 00:11:11,181.34721295 --> 00:11:15,251.34721295 Choosing the wrong group of friends through our social capacity lead to poor choices often. 111 00:11:15,461.34721295 --> 00:11:19,731.34621295 So there's these deep connections between these different faculties of our soul. 112 00:11:20,491.34721295 --> 00:11:25,631.34621295 And, understanding that well helps us understand, how things can go better. 113 00:11:25,641.34721295 --> 00:11:28,961.34721295 In other words, how we can be formed properly into the image of Christ. 114 00:11:29,331.34721295 --> 00:11:34,844.68054629 And when things are going sideways, help us and help professionals in these fields, counselors. 115 00:11:35,279.68054629 --> 00:11:54,627.25108604 pastors, physicians, everybody who deals with aspects of the soul or soul body relation, to diagnose, okay, what's going on here? and how can this be addressed? How can we help this person? So, uh, I veered a little bit into ministry, and serving others, but, but that's, that's one way that understanding this really helps us. 116 00:11:54,937.27602935 --> 00:11:57,377.27602935 it also helps us make sense of. 117 00:11:57,894.29643752 --> 00:12:02,897.27602935 the notion of spiritual maturity, you know, Matthew 5, 48, Jesus says, be perfect as I am perfect. 118 00:12:03,707.27602935 --> 00:12:05,897.27602935 you know, we look at that and say, well, that's, that's impossible. 119 00:12:05,908.80416847 --> 00:12:13,932.1365018 how can I be perfect? the word perfect really comes from a noun, which means, the end or the result, uh, telos. 120 00:12:14,442.80100022 --> 00:12:21,982.80000022 he's really saying just reach your end in the natural state of full maturity in light of your nature. 121 00:12:22,568.92571678 --> 00:12:27,298.92571678 which is what human persons naturally move toward. 122 00:12:27,538.92571678 --> 00:12:37,598.92471678 And Jesus, as having taken on our human nature, himself moved toward and actually finally realized, or finally, fully expressed those properties of soul. 123 00:12:37,968.92571678 --> 00:12:41,108.92571678 So it just makes sense of, okay, here's what flourishing is. 124 00:12:41,118.92571678 --> 00:12:42,388.92571678 It's moving toward our end. 125 00:12:42,388.92571678 --> 00:13:01,843.81587324 It's moving toward our telos, the natural, state of maturity we in our very nature were created to have and, uh, includes our embodiedness, includes the flourishing of our bodies, which then also makes sense of the final resurrection when that will come to, to fruition and we will truly be all God has created us to be. 126 00:13:02,601.62639705 --> 00:13:06,41.62739705 so just makes a lot of sense of all those issues in spiritual formation. 127 00:13:06,71.62739705 --> 00:13:08,201.62739705 I just am touching the tip of the iceberg. 128 00:13:08,201.62739705 --> 00:13:09,451.62739705 There's a lot more that can be said. 129 00:13:09,770.29406372 --> 00:13:10,40.29406372 Yeah. 130 00:13:10,40.29406372 --> 00:13:21,137.53824858 So, I mean, I'd, I'd be curious to hear from you, you know, what you touching on here is, is really the great commandment when Jesus asked, you know, what is the greatest commandment? He said it's to love God, love others. 131 00:13:21,397.53824858 --> 00:13:24,997.53824858 And he also mentioned this, this element of loving self. 132 00:13:25,367.53824858 --> 00:13:32,267.43824858 So in your opinion, how does understanding how God has created us, lead us to loving ourselves more fully? Yeah. 133 00:13:32,722.20491524 --> 00:13:33,542.20491524 Absolutely. 134 00:13:33,572.20491524 --> 00:13:38,442.20491524 So you've got to understand what you are as a self before you can love that, because love has an object. 135 00:13:38,762.20491524 --> 00:13:45,532.20491524 And if you have a wrong object conception or understanding of you as a self, you won't at least fully love yourself as you should. 136 00:13:46,77.96028062 --> 00:14:03,104.05672188 This is one of the issues that I address in the book, a group of Christians who are concluding that due to the findings of neuroscience, we have to define the person as, if not maybe even most fundamentally a body. 137 00:14:03,354.05672188 --> 00:14:09,464.05672188 And so they're trying to do theology and spiritual formation from a physicalist perspective, a Christian physicalist perspective. 138 00:14:10,244.05672188 --> 00:14:10,584.05572188 in the U. 139 00:14:10,584.05672188 --> 00:14:10,774.05622188 S. 140 00:14:10,774.05622188 --> 00:14:20,113.11645663 there's a Christian philosopher at Fuller Seminary, her name is Nancy Murphy, and she says we have no need of the soul or any spiritual reality to, to make sense of what we are. 141 00:14:20,493.11645663 --> 00:14:25,543.11745663 And there's a whole generation of Christian counselors and pastors who've been influenced this line of thinking. 142 00:14:25,567.43497248 --> 00:14:27,274.42178432 they call themselves neuro theologians. 143 00:14:27,794.93544172 --> 00:14:39,554.93544172 and I'm engaging a number of them in the book, specifically to a gentleman man named Jim Wilder, who wrote a book renovated, and another gentleman, Kurt Thompson, who wrote Anatomy of the Soul. 144 00:14:39,824.93544172 --> 00:14:42,224.93544172 And, and they have fabulous pastoral advice. 145 00:14:42,224.93544172 --> 00:14:44,324.93544172 They're really dear brothers in the Lord. 146 00:14:44,404.93544172 --> 00:14:50,301.60210839 but they're trying to make sense of our embodiedness in a way, that reduces us in, in, in a pretty. 147 00:14:51,486.60210839 --> 00:14:53,858.54304889 way to, brain functions. 148 00:14:54,201.87638222 --> 00:14:59,941.87638222 so as a result, the understanding of flourishing is significantly emaciated. 149 00:15:00,148.54304889 --> 00:15:15,113.54304889 my hope is to try to regain a fuller understanding of what is the self so we can truly understand, okay, we have these faculties of the soul, of them being the sensory faculty that relates to our bodies. 150 00:15:16,63.54304889 --> 00:15:26,660.20971556 by understanding what they are and how they relate to one another and how we can leverage that in our growth, we'll truly love God as, as we desire in deeper and deeper ways. 151 00:15:26,700.20971556 --> 00:15:28,710.20971556 And again, I'm not saying anything new here. 152 00:15:29,10.20971556 --> 00:15:33,440.20971556 This is what Dallas Willard wrote so many books about and so well articulated. 153 00:15:33,710.20971556 --> 00:15:39,688.33979207 I'm just trying to say it a little bit a different way for, An audience who wants a little primer on, on Dallas and others. 154 00:15:39,738.33979207 --> 00:15:42,108.33979207 I'm trying to summarize some of those things. 155 00:15:42,590.33979207 --> 00:15:51,809.61949988 Well, I'll be the first to say that I am a fan of Dallas Willard and his writings, and so it's always great to talk about him and hear more insights that kind of continue his work. 156 00:15:52,289.61949988 --> 00:15:53,49.61949988 And his legacy. 157 00:15:53,49.61949988 --> 00:16:06,937.72136048 So, you know, let, let's talk about ministry here, because many of those who are listening to this podcast, they listening to this because they are actively involved in missions and have a passion to see God's mission advanced globally. 158 00:16:07,367.72236048 --> 00:16:11,127.72236048 And so we've, we've kind of unpacked this in a little bit more detail. 159 00:16:11,459.22650074 --> 00:16:20,400.50176629 but could you share with me, you know, like what are the practical implications that you're talking about here when we're talking about ministry? so I, you know, I can, I can love myself more. 160 00:16:20,400.50176629 --> 00:16:30,266.3260827 I can love others a little bit better, but, but practically, how do you see this playing out? Yeah, I, identify three main areas helping us understand evangelism, discipleship, and missions. 161 00:16:30,616.3260827 --> 00:16:33,696.3260827 Helping us understand how to engage social issues in our cultures. 162 00:16:33,986.3260827 --> 00:16:38,776.3260827 And then helping us love better others in our work and what we do professionally. 163 00:16:38,786.3260827 --> 00:16:40,658.3260827 So let me touch on all three Please. 164 00:16:40,738.6147272 --> 00:16:40,970.8488883 Yeah. 165 00:16:41,178.8498883 --> 00:16:50,257.4081008 terms of evangelism and missions, especially, there's an idea that Leslie Newbigin made famous called a plausibility structure. 166 00:16:51,17.4081008 --> 00:17:00,577.4091008 the idea that a culture will develop a certain set of things they think are, are certainly true, but others they think are, they're, they're maybe true, they're plausible. 167 00:17:00,587.4091008 --> 00:17:01,447.3091008 Maybe I don't believe it. 168 00:17:01,747.4091008 --> 00:17:04,607.4091008 buy it, but it's, it's at least possible it is true. 169 00:17:04,617.4091008 --> 00:17:16,395.707855 So for instance, if I say to you that, you know, that the earth is flat, of course I don't believe, but let's just say I do, and you're gonna right away think, well, that's not even possibly true. 170 00:17:16,395.707855 --> 00:17:18,975.708355 In other words, that's not even in your plausibility structure. 171 00:17:19,245.708355 --> 00:17:21,55.708355 It's not just that you don't happen to think it's false. 172 00:17:21,65.708355 --> 00:17:23,45.708355 You don't, it can't be true. 173 00:17:23,935.708355 --> 00:17:24,905.708355 We just know too much. 174 00:17:25,589.0416884 --> 00:17:49,560.4806781 one of the great challenges in missions that increasingly, not only in Western context, but now more broadly, globally, is a plausibility structure in cultures that excludes the supernatural, that excludes the spiritual realm, that says following the enlightenment, which has had a phenomenal impact on cultural. 175 00:17:49,970.4806781 --> 00:17:59,180.4806781 formation around the world that says, again, if I can't, in some way, experience it through my five senses, it isn't real. 176 00:18:00,60.4806781 --> 00:18:11,613.3380993 And so when you go to share the gospel with somebody and start talking about these immaterial things like God, moral values, they say, that's like a flat earth. 177 00:18:11,653.3380993 --> 00:18:14,543.3380993 What are you talking about? Nobody believes that anymore. 178 00:18:14,573.3380993 --> 00:18:20,163.3380993 We've, we've explained everything through science and through the physical realm. 179 00:18:21,383.3380993 --> 00:18:38,562.688162 And so for us to capitulate on the, reality or nature of the soul and not be able to defend it as a spiritual substance, as something that exists in its own right as a spiritual thing, not something that is in any way dependent for its existence on the body. 180 00:18:39,652.688162 --> 00:18:41,622.688162 And there's a lot packed into there. 181 00:18:41,632.688162 --> 00:18:51,961.9347734 I have a whole chapter on what that means, but the point is that, continues to reinforce this cultural narrative in so many places, that if I can't see it, it isn't real. 182 00:18:52,451.9347734 --> 00:19:04,641.9347734 And so it's harder and harder for people to make sense of the gospel as plausible if there isn't a spiritual realm, if there's not a soul, if, if we can't know things that aren't empirically verifiable. 183 00:19:04,651.9347734 --> 00:19:06,711.9347734 So it's got huge implications there. 184 00:19:07,321.9347734 --> 00:19:17,906.9347734 On the other hand, if we can make the case and have people have this understanding of us as a Substantial soul that has a body and is deeply wed to the body. 185 00:19:18,326.9347734 --> 00:19:20,943.9245704 It makes sense of, everything we do in missions. 186 00:19:21,683.9245704 --> 00:19:30,543.9245704 caring to the soul and salvation of the soul caring for the, the physical needs of persons, because that's a very real component of who they are. 187 00:19:30,593.9255704 --> 00:19:32,473.9255704 And those needs need to be met as well. 188 00:19:32,723.9255704 --> 00:19:35,253.9255704 So it makes, makes sense of everything we do in missions. 189 00:19:35,283.9255704 --> 00:19:37,813.9255704 And it's important that we have that sense. 190 00:19:38,25.7589038 --> 00:19:42,335.7579038 well, let's, let's pause there for a moment and just unpack that a little bit further if you're okay with that. 191 00:19:42,335.7589038 --> 00:19:50,40.5922371 You know, I think what you're saying is, is definitely true, in a Western context for, for those who, who do doubt the spiritual. 192 00:19:50,480.7005503 --> 00:20:02,890.6694215 I live in Africa and many in Africa don't doubt that there's a spiritual reality, but let's just say for instance, we're doing mission in Europe, you're encountering someone who, who does not believe in the spiritual. 193 00:20:02,890.6694215 --> 00:20:05,140.6699215 For them, it's not plausible. 194 00:20:05,160.6699215 --> 00:20:07,60.6699215 It doesn't fit into the plausibility structure. 195 00:20:07,790.6689215 --> 00:20:18,302.9376205 How would you go about taking them from a place of it not being plausible to identifying and helping them come to a place of recognizing, okay, perhaps this is plausible. 196 00:20:18,682.9386205 --> 00:20:19,802.9386205 That there is a spiritual realm. 197 00:20:19,960.9386205 --> 00:20:20,340.9386205 Right. 198 00:20:20,482.9386205 --> 00:20:22,247.6052872 would you say to that? Very good. 199 00:20:22,917.6052872 --> 00:20:37,982.6052872 So, by the way, I, I work a lot through global scholars in the African context, and increasingly, I work in higher education among those in university, and increasingly this, naturalism or physicalism is making inroads in Africa as well. 200 00:20:37,982.6052872 --> 00:20:45,622.6052872 So I want to flag that, that the tidal wave of the enlightenment, I think continues to, to flood the whole earth. 201 00:20:45,915.9376205 --> 00:20:48,85.9376205 we do need to be vigilant, but having said that, you're right. 202 00:20:48,85.9376205 --> 00:20:49,575.9386205 It's much more prevalent in say Europe. 203 00:20:50,144.5602078 --> 00:20:54,14.5602078 when I was doing faculty ministry in a major research university here in the U. 204 00:20:54,14.5602078 --> 00:20:54,254.5602078 S. 205 00:20:54,294.5602078 --> 00:20:57,688.7087771 and I was sitting down with a, math professor who was not a believer. 206 00:20:58,783.7087771 --> 00:21:08,777.2458829 And as I was trying to share the gospel with him and engage in spiritual conversations, he just finally stopped me and said, look, you know, I've got a PhD in mathematics. 207 00:21:08,777.2468829 --> 00:21:11,7.2468829 I'm teaching it here at this leading university. 208 00:21:11,777.2468829 --> 00:21:13,667.2458829 know, just beyond that. 209 00:21:13,717.2468829 --> 00:21:19,817.2468829 I mean, that's what people believe before they really think these things through and get an education. 210 00:21:19,817.2468829 --> 00:21:22,967.2468829 So, you know, it just doesn't really make any sense. 211 00:21:22,967.2468829 --> 00:21:24,67.2468829 And I'm not really that interested. 212 00:21:25,257.2468829 --> 00:21:26,457.2468829 So I realized, Yeah. 213 00:21:26,457.2468829 --> 00:21:33,917.2468829 it's, it's not something that I'm going to be able to start the conversation, assuming that we have some common ground that there is a physical, uh, immaterial realm. 214 00:21:34,737.2468829 --> 00:21:39,436.3376566 so I shifted the conversation to, you know, I'm going to use this as one example. 215 00:21:39,436.3376566 --> 00:21:42,436.3376566 There's a hundred examples, but I shifted the conversation to his field. 216 00:21:42,436.3376566 --> 00:21:44,286.3376566 He was a mathematician, so I asked what he studies. 217 00:21:45,96.3376566 --> 00:21:47,766.3376566 He says, I study mathematical objects and their, their relations. 218 00:21:48,216.3376566 --> 00:21:49,786.3376566 Which I think is actually a really good answer. 219 00:21:50,966.3376566 --> 00:21:51,926.3376566 Oh, that's so interesting. 220 00:21:51,926.3376566 --> 00:21:52,956.3376566 I've always wondered about that. 221 00:21:53,266.3376566 --> 00:21:59,568.3368349 Can I, do you have one in your drawer? Could, could I, could I, could I touch one of those things? I want to, I want to feel what their texture is. 222 00:21:59,728.3368349 --> 00:22:03,948.3368349 Like two, do you keep two around somewhere? He looked at me like I was an idiot. 223 00:22:03,948.3368349 --> 00:22:07,78.3368349 Like, what are you talking about? He said, well, they're there on the board. 224 00:22:07,78.4368349 --> 00:22:08,468.3368349 I said, Oh, you keep them up there. 225 00:22:09,228.3368349 --> 00:22:11,968.3368349 got to make sure that don't, don't get erased overnight. 226 00:22:12,858.3368349 --> 00:22:17,538.3368349 you're going to have to go get a PhD in something else, right? No, they're written all over the world. 227 00:22:17,538.4368349 --> 00:22:20,888.3368349 I said, but in theory, they could be erased everywhere and you'd have nothing to study. 228 00:22:21,278.3368349 --> 00:22:24,718.3368349 He thought about that for a while and he said, no, you know, I guess I do. 229 00:22:24,728.3368349 --> 00:22:27,268.3368349 I study something not physical. 230 00:22:27,268.3368349 --> 00:22:30,738.3368349 I study these things that Wouldn't have to be written down to be true. 231 00:22:31,145.3368349 --> 00:22:31,405.3368349 Yeah. 232 00:22:31,416.8368349 --> 00:22:32,406.8368349 said, exactly. 233 00:22:33,526.8368349 --> 00:22:50,346.8358349 if you have already a belief in all of these things that aren't material, all these things you study, these mathematical objects and their relations, what's the problem with adding God and souls to that realm of things that at least might exist? And he said, you know, you're right. 234 00:22:50,456.8358349 --> 00:22:51,566.8368349 I need to rethink this. 235 00:22:51,666.8368349 --> 00:22:53,656.8368349 And it led to a very fruitful conversation. 236 00:22:54,401.8368349 --> 00:23:04,371.8368349 So that's one example of, I think a lot of, well I know a lot of people who are secularists already implicitly believe in the immaterial realm. 237 00:23:04,381.8368349 --> 00:23:06,221.8358349 You just have to figure out where they do. 238 00:23:07,658.9856796 --> 00:23:09,607.4422511 their kids when they were 3 and 4. 239 00:23:09,607.4422511 --> 00:23:12,85.3276082 Now maybe they're 23 and 24. 240 00:23:12,405.3286082 --> 00:23:20,565.3281082 So you're going to ask, well what makes them the same? Because all the matter that was there in that picture when your son was 2 is not there anymore. 241 00:23:20,565.3281082 --> 00:23:20,595.3276082 Right. 242 00:23:21,775.3286082 --> 00:23:34,865.3286082 in what sense is that still him? Well, because there's a substantial soul that underlies the changes of the body, but, that's not what he is starting, assuming, and so he's just asking these kind of questions. 243 00:23:35,804.6802684 --> 00:23:53,317.6344832 you know, you can ask questions about rationality and freedom, which can't be explained by purely brain states, which are determined, by the laws of chemistry and physics, but free choices by definition, and even rationality aren't the kind of things that, that can be determined by laws. 244 00:23:53,687.4962413 --> 00:24:01,407.4972413 so you start to just ask questions along these lines, and as I said, I've got a couple chapters that outlines some of these type of questions. 245 00:24:02,107.4962413 --> 00:24:15,450.8305746 I find that when I start asking questions, and I think that is an important way to go in, in these conversations, but as I ask questions challenge these assumptions, or ask people to defend their assumptions, that were all physical things. 246 00:24:16,285.8305746 --> 00:24:20,525.8305746 they still believe in a lot of immaterial things, then we can have good conversations. 247 00:24:20,887.8305746 --> 00:24:21,547.8300746 Well, that's brilliant. 248 00:24:21,547.8300746 --> 00:24:22,787.8305746 I mean, that's, that's number one. 249 00:24:22,787.8305746 --> 00:24:24,77.8295746 We're talking about evangelism. 250 00:24:24,87.8295746 --> 00:24:25,707.8295746 The next one was discipleship. 251 00:24:25,747.8305746 --> 00:24:26,667.3031538 Let's, dive in there. 252 00:24:26,667.3041538 --> 00:24:30,96.3031538 Why don't you unpack that for us? Well, again, that's just back to spiritual formation. 253 00:24:30,96.3031538 --> 00:24:36,156.3041538 What it to become an apprentice of Jesus? To be a disciple? it's to walk as He walked. 254 00:24:36,966.3041538 --> 00:24:45,697.8708205 to walk as He walked and live as He lived, uh, taking on the way He lived as a human. 255 00:24:46,637.9708205 --> 00:24:52,827.9708205 In this earth, in this body, increasingly exemplifying what it is truly to be human. 256 00:24:53,747.9708205 --> 00:25:02,87.9708205 Now we're right back to, well, what is that? So the better we understand what we are to be human, we understand what he was, what he took on, Philippians 2, Right. 257 00:25:02,557.9698205 --> 00:25:05,337.9698205 He took on the very nature of a servant. 258 00:25:07,261.5243951 --> 00:25:09,102.7094269 Yeah. 259 00:25:09,811.455941 --> 00:25:18,331.455941 so the second element after making sense of evangelism, discipleship and missions, it helps us understand how to engage social issues in our cultures. 260 00:25:18,907.0416081 --> 00:25:26,450.9669066 issues in biomedical ethics, say abortion and euthanasia, human cloning, uh, all of these issues. 261 00:25:27,255.9669066 --> 00:25:34,505.9669066 They all start from assumptions of what it is to be human and when human life begins or ends. 262 00:25:35,325.9669066 --> 00:25:48,375.9669066 And so the clearer we are on life does begin and end, the better able we're able to rationally engage in this conversation in our culture and support what is true. 263 00:25:48,848.1808865 --> 00:25:59,208.1808865 And then the other area this comes into play significantly is as our culture talks about issues of justice for all, here in the U. 264 00:25:59,208.1808865 --> 00:25:59,398.1803865 S. 265 00:25:59,398.1803865 --> 00:26:15,819.0008 it's part of our Constitution, as in many countries, what does that mean and why is that something we should strive for? Well, that notion is based on assumption that we are all fundamentally the same. 266 00:26:16,239.0008 --> 00:26:27,371.2812986 That we all most fundamentally, apart from any other difference people might exhibit, we share a human nature. 267 00:26:27,791.2812986 --> 00:26:30,221.2812986 Which is where the image of God resides. 268 00:26:30,861.6073516 --> 00:26:45,511.6063516 and so because we share that fundamental nature, that's not physical, because all those other variations can be physical in some way or another, but because we share this human nature, we can truly ground a notion of justice for all. 269 00:26:45,821.6063516 --> 00:26:50,711.6073516 When you lose that and people are reflective and say, yeah, there is no. 270 00:26:51,1.6073516 --> 00:26:52,311.6073516 Shared nature. 271 00:26:53,380.2903184 --> 00:27:09,710.2903184 you move pretty quickly into very, very disturbing approaches to social and cultural engineering, and the classic and unfortunately greatest example is the Holocaust, where groups of people were defined as non human. 272 00:27:10,474.9140677 --> 00:27:13,684.9140677 based on certain observable traits or, uh, ethnicity. 273 00:27:14,409.9140677 --> 00:27:17,779.9140677 as a result, we're treated in the horrendous ways that we know of. 274 00:27:17,779.9140677 --> 00:27:40,317.6457055 So, to make sense of truly defending all persons as equal and valuable and to be protected by law really needs to have a robust understanding of the person as more than physical, as essentially a human nature that is shared by all and equally valuable Stan, thank you. 275 00:27:40,337.6457055 --> 00:27:56,693.1255427 Thank you for, already beginning to chat into the social issues and how, this connects into that, you know, already spoken about a bit of like the, the justice element, but I'd be curious, you know, the State of the Great Commission report does highlight, two important elements of, how this question plays out and the implications of it. 276 00:27:56,983.2255427 --> 00:28:01,859.2282625 The one has to do with AI, and our inter interaction with AI. 277 00:28:02,256.5005521 --> 00:28:09,845.5318021 how does your understanding of humans and our body's soul inform our conversation around AI? What would you say about that? right. 278 00:28:09,855.5318021 --> 00:28:14,965.5318021 There's a lot to be said, and I just scratched the surface, and there's some people doing really good work on this. 279 00:28:15,178.1780737 --> 00:28:17,638.1780737 a scholar named Sherman at Calvin College. 280 00:28:17,638.1780737 --> 00:28:20,78.1775737 I'm, Calvin University I'm thinking of here in the U. 281 00:28:20,78.1775737 --> 00:28:20,328.1770737 S., 282 00:28:20,328.1770737 --> 00:28:22,98.1780737 but, um, Sherman. 283 00:28:22,524.6804533 --> 00:28:40,984.5712533 but essentially the, fundamental question is, do we differ from a computer degree or in kind? In other words, are we, just complex computers that are very sophisticated? So we differ, we only differ in degree. 284 00:28:40,994.5712533 --> 00:28:50,181.7478359 And therefore, at some point, processing of a computer will get to a point where it will equal or supersede us. 285 00:28:50,321.7478359 --> 00:28:57,135.6531651 So because the difference is only one of degree, that's a variable that, will change with the speed of technology. 286 00:28:57,542.6014374 --> 00:29:04,882.6014374 If we're different in kind, then the, the mental life is fundamentally different in its very nature from that of a computer. 287 00:29:04,882.6014374 --> 00:29:10,392.6004374 And a computer will never think, it will never reason, it will never consciousness. 288 00:29:10,874.5254869 --> 00:29:12,394.5254869 and there's good reason to believe that. 289 00:29:12,999.5254869 --> 00:29:19,714.2019065 The difference between our minds and a computer, is one of the difference of kind, not degree. 290 00:29:20,54.2019065 --> 00:29:21,144.2019065 Uh, and I make that case. 291 00:29:21,144.2019065 --> 00:29:24,254.2019065 But it, if so, then a lot of our worries are laid. 292 00:29:24,424.2009065 --> 00:29:28,650.8675732 And we can then, really, I think, embrace technology and utilize it. 293 00:29:29,580.8685732 --> 00:29:34,670.8685732 proper ends, and that's always a we've got to ask also, or the ends toward which it's being used. 294 00:29:34,950.8685732 --> 00:29:59,356.8170519 But in terms of the ontological question of, well, can computer, what, what are computers and can computers or, other elements of AI become human or have equal rights or, and so on and so forth, really is answered when you answer what is the nature of the brain, what's the nature of the mind, what's the difference, quantitative, purely or qualitative Yeah, of a computer or a, piece of technology. 295 00:29:59,852.0878852 --> 00:29:59,962.0878852 great. 296 00:29:59,962.0878852 --> 00:30:06,348.7545519 And another really important topic that came up in the state of the great commission report has to do with, gender and sexuality. 297 00:30:06,348.7545519 --> 00:30:14,718.7545519 So if, if you're comfortable discussing it, how does holistic dualism Inform our understandings of questions related to gender and sexuality. 298 00:30:15,106.8170519 --> 00:30:16,456.8170519 And I'm glad you did throw that term out. 299 00:30:16,456.8170519 --> 00:30:32,469.9285042 I don't know if I use that earlier, within the dualist camp that we're a body and soul, there's the, the view that I'm advancing, it's holistic dualism as opposed to Cartesian dualism, the other view where the body's kind of trapped, the soul's kind of trapped in the body. 300 00:30:32,469.9285042 --> 00:30:32,699.9285042 So. 301 00:30:33,494.9285042 --> 00:30:34,464.9285042 Glad you used that term. 302 00:30:35,264.9285042 --> 00:30:54,32.1655659 yeah, so first of all, back to my earlier point, each and every person, regardless of any variation, ethnicity, sexual orientation, whatever, is equally valuable in the sight of God and, intrinsically valuable because of the reality of them being a human being. 303 00:30:54,482.1655659 --> 00:30:56,632.1655659 soul that bears God's image. 304 00:30:56,842.1655659 --> 00:31:06,233.174594 So that's the first thing that this helps us say is we treat all people with equal respect, equally valuable, equally, important. 305 00:31:06,686.4529035 --> 00:31:15,987.5629467 and that I think helps us, love our neighbors as ourselves in this case, even though we might very, very strongly disagree with their ethic. 306 00:31:16,307.5639467 --> 00:31:17,757.5639467 So that's the first thing that needs to be said. 307 00:31:18,220.8972801 --> 00:31:34,112.1829198 Secondly, with the three views I have on the table, Cartesian dualism, and holistic dualism, only one of them Is the grounding for, the current popular views of human sexuality. 308 00:31:34,142.1829198 --> 00:31:35,862.1829198 So let me, let me unpack this quickly. 309 00:31:36,82.1819198 --> 00:31:38,992.7285999 If you're a physicalist, you're just whatever your body is. 310 00:31:39,2.7275999 --> 00:31:45,51.2374156 So there's, there's, there's no confusion, no doubt, no, you know, I'm this, but my body's this, that, that, that doesn't exist. 311 00:31:45,51.2374156 --> 00:31:45,886.2374156 Cause you are your body. 312 00:31:46,106.2374156 --> 00:31:48,116.2374156 There is nothing to be at odds there. 313 00:31:48,827.1234539 --> 00:31:50,937.1234539 it's only if you're a Cartesian dualist. 314 00:31:50,947.1234539 --> 00:31:55,407.1229539 Now, this is the view that my body and soul are very loosely united. 315 00:31:55,407.1229539 --> 00:31:58,627.1229539 I'm kind of like, as some have said, a ghost in the machine. 316 00:31:58,627.1229539 --> 00:32:00,47.1234539 The body is kind of a machine that does its thing. 317 00:32:00,47.1234539 --> 00:32:01,347.1234539 And then I'm sort of stuck in it. 318 00:32:01,827.1234539 --> 00:32:09,509.6266083 And I'm this, spirit that, that is, uncomfortable actually in this physical realm and wants to be liberated from this. 319 00:32:10,874.6266083 --> 00:32:13,154.6266083 Well, that's the Cartesian view of soul and body. 320 00:32:13,476.7458301 --> 00:32:16,386.7458301 by the way, back to the AI conversation, it's that view. 321 00:32:16,773.6800062 --> 00:32:23,460.5873102 although I don't think proponents always understand that's what they're assuming, but that, that view where, you, really. 322 00:32:23,710.5873102 --> 00:32:29,630.5873102 Need to be liberated from the body and, uh, and, and through transhumanism can fully flourish. 323 00:32:29,640.5873102 --> 00:32:29,880.5873102 Okay. 324 00:32:29,880.5873102 --> 00:32:33,960.5873102 So those issues assume this Cartesian dualism as well. 325 00:32:34,200.5873102 --> 00:32:43,210.5873102 But in terms of the transgender conversation, on that view, you could be trapped in a body because there's such a loose connection between a soul and a body. 326 00:32:43,210.5873102 --> 00:32:45,30.5873102 A soul can be one thing and a body can be another thing. 327 00:32:45,655.8625903 --> 00:32:53,755.8615903 On the holistic dualist view, the soul actually creates the body to live in the world and interact and flourish in the world. 328 00:32:54,324.9506289 --> 00:32:55,334.9506289 I got a whole chapter on this. 329 00:32:55,334.9506289 --> 00:33:04,664.9496289 There's a lot more to be said, but it is actually the soul that forms the DNA structure to form the physical body. 330 00:33:06,459.9506289 --> 00:33:11,989.9506289 so that it, the soul, can hear and smell and taste and see and feel and so on and so forth. 331 00:33:12,239.9506289 --> 00:33:16,209.9496289 So those, in this view, are actually properties of the mind, not the brain. 332 00:33:16,209.9506289 --> 00:33:21,859.9496289 The brain doesn't see or think or feel or whatever, but it uses the sense organs to do so. 333 00:33:21,899.9506289 --> 00:33:28,356.2933184 Okay, that's the holistic dualism that runs, back through Aquinas, ultimately grounded in Aristotle in some very fundamental ways. 334 00:33:29,516.2933184 --> 00:33:34,816.2933184 If that's the case, you can't be trapped in a different body because your body is expression of your soul. 335 00:33:35,546.2933184 --> 00:33:37,496.2933184 So what your body is, is what your soul is. 336 00:33:38,332.9599851 --> 00:33:43,792.9599851 and so flourishing, this is the pastoral point, so flourishing is living according to your nature. 337 00:33:44,262.9599851 --> 00:33:47,42.9589851 It's living according to what you fundamentally are. 338 00:33:47,872.9599851 --> 00:34:03,422.9599851 is what all views would say, but in this view it, it, it makes sense, this holistic dualism sense, we know what we are, both by introspective awareness in our soul, but also by the expression of our soul in our body. 339 00:34:03,917.9599851 --> 00:34:08,127.9599851 And so the more we live into that reality, the more we'll flourish. 340 00:34:08,566.5425677 --> 00:34:11,806.5435677 And Sam, there's a third implication for ministry that you mentioned. 341 00:34:11,816.5425677 --> 00:34:13,898.0748177 Could you unpack that for us? sure. 342 00:34:13,968.0748177 --> 00:34:14,178.0743177 Yeah. 343 00:34:14,178.0743177 --> 00:34:16,724.808151 That relates to what we do in our professional lives. 344 00:34:16,724.808151 --> 00:34:23,582.1889777 So how you see the people you, you serve in or that, that, that, uh, your work engages. 345 00:34:24,282.2889777 --> 00:34:26,782.2889777 will, uh, determine how you engage them. 346 00:34:27,172.2889777 --> 00:34:33,532.2889777 So for instance, in medicine, let's say you're a, uh, you're a physician and you're a physicalist. 347 00:34:34,235.6796401 --> 00:34:38,505.6796401 you'll walk into the room and be tempted just to look at the chart because that's all there is. 348 00:34:38,675.6796401 --> 00:34:43,605.6796401 It's just what the MRI showed that's going on here because that's all this patient is, is a, is a body. 349 00:34:43,885.6796401 --> 00:34:47,902.9040475 So your, your engagement with, the person will be the engagement with the chart. 350 00:34:48,372.9040475 --> 00:34:50,392.9040475 You might not even look at the patient. 351 00:34:50,542.9340473 --> 00:34:54,270.2950683 and then you'll just prescribe the protocol that should be followed and you're out the door. 352 00:34:55,150.2950683 --> 00:35:05,538.1181872 Now, if you're a dualist, especially a holistic dualist, you're going to look at the chart because the chart That's data that's true and that needs to be understood, but it's not all the data. 353 00:35:05,538.1181872 --> 00:35:14,580.9470311 You're also going to ask the patient she feels, what she's experiencing inside, things about the nature of her soul, essentially, even though you might not be framing it in those terms. 354 00:35:14,600.9470311 --> 00:35:23,700.9470311 You're going to ask her for her first person perspective of, are you feeling better? And even though the chart might say something differently, need to hear from you. 355 00:35:24,430.9470311 --> 00:35:31,400.9470311 it's going to, in a deep way, affect how you engage the patient and how you diagnose what's going on and how you prescribe a treatment protocol. 356 00:35:31,640.9460311 --> 00:35:32,360.9470311 One example. 357 00:35:32,820.9470311 --> 00:35:39,690.9470311 Or in business, if somebody's, you know, an employee's just a cog in the machine, you'll treat them in one way. 358 00:35:40,140.9470311 --> 00:35:51,87.8680646 But if they're a person who not only the need for, physical wellbeing, namely a paycheck to buy the things they need, but they've also got a, spiritual life. 359 00:35:51,107.8690646 --> 00:35:53,389.3957037 They've got a, an emotional life. 360 00:35:53,389.3967037 --> 00:35:55,299.3957037 They've got these other things going on in their souls. 361 00:35:55,319.3967037 --> 00:35:59,909.3957037 Well, you're going to treat them a little differently as your employees or your clients or whatever it is. 362 00:35:59,909.3967037 --> 00:36:02,305.938246 So that's just the tip of the iceberg, but those are some ideas. 363 00:36:02,673.8083281 --> 00:36:07,923.6499008 Well, we have lots of people listening in vocational ministry, so why don't you unpack that for us? Well, great. 364 00:36:07,933.6509008 --> 00:36:13,198.7894283 That's getting back to the issue of neuroscience and, neurotheology. 365 00:36:13,726.0687815 --> 00:36:37,691.0687815 If we are just ultimately a body, a physical thing, as neuro theologians are at least, if not explicitly stating in some of their writings, increasingly the training for pastors and missionaries and others in vocational ministry will be helping to learn neuroscience more and more, because you are the brain, the soul. 366 00:36:37,954.2257943 --> 00:36:47,737.799819 if on the other hand, you take the Cartesian dualist view in ministry, you're going to focus on the liberation of the soul. 367 00:36:48,127.899819 --> 00:36:50,257.899819 people you're serving from this physical realm. 368 00:36:50,257.899819 --> 00:36:50,967.899819 So Yeah. 369 00:36:50,967.899819 --> 00:36:58,697.899819 you've got to go to work and make some money, but you know, that's really just valuable because it helps you put food on the table and give some money to missions. 370 00:36:59,27.899819 --> 00:37:16,87.899819 Really where the spiritual action is, you'll tell them, is either serving here at church or, or your faith with your colleagues or going on a mission trip because, because that's where the most important thing is because it's the soul, the immaterial, the spiritual realm that is. 371 00:37:17,22.899819 --> 00:37:22,822.899819 that is good and the material physical realm, whether it's the body or the culture around us, is all bad. 372 00:37:22,832.899819 --> 00:37:24,852.899819 And so you just wouldn't kind of get yourself out of that. 373 00:37:24,872.899819 --> 00:37:39,782.2044647 I was involved in a student ministry, during my college days and I had our director say, Hey, study as little as possible so you can just stay here, you know, don't fail, stay in school so you can spend all your time in the important stuff, which is evangelism and discipleship. 374 00:37:41,202.2044647 --> 00:37:45,822.2044647 That carries through into professional lives of a lot where I've just got to go to work and kind of do this. 375 00:37:46,222.2044647 --> 00:37:52,198.0010226 And that really important stuff I'm doing is, what I do with my church or, or, uh, in my, mission work. 376 00:37:52,278.0010226 --> 00:38:03,100.5218917 So, you know, if you've got a Cartesian dualist view, which draws heavily on Plato's distinction of spirit is good, matter is bad, then that's going to be your focus in ministry. 377 00:38:04,20.5218917 --> 00:38:12,553.1261236 If you have this holistic dualist view, you're going to understand all of reality as sacred in the sense of God is present everywhere. 378 00:38:12,823.1251236 --> 00:38:19,923.1251236 And so, yes, my worship on Sunday is important, but my work nine to five has intrinsic value also, all week. 379 00:38:20,586.6410834 --> 00:38:34,686.6410834 my, my work and the people we're serving, right? Our parishioners or those in our ministries can be encouraged in their work to see it as intrinsically valuable and not just instrumentally valuable as, okay, here's a way to make some, some money to do the really important things. 380 00:38:34,986.6410834 --> 00:38:39,866.6410834 So it makes a difference in how we help people do what we think God's called them to do. 381 00:38:40,504.2959101 --> 00:38:41,624.2959101 it also helps us. 382 00:38:41,979.2959101 --> 00:38:55,812.0017142 Pastorally, as we counsel people, just like the physician, we're able to say, yeah, this, seems to be a problem of soul that you've come to me to talk about, your anxiety, but how are you eating? might affect it. 383 00:38:56,197.0027142 --> 00:39:00,167.0027142 What you're doing in your body might have some implication for the state of your soul. 384 00:39:00,907.0027142 --> 00:39:06,938.9402142 so it gives us the, the ability to, in a more robust way, help people, help people flourish, Yeah. 385 00:39:07,642.3707635 --> 00:39:10,232.3707635 live the life God's, God's given them to live. 386 00:39:10,704.3072635 --> 00:39:12,162.3707635 Yeah, a few examples. 387 00:39:12,468.3395135 --> 00:39:16,136.1299075 Yeah, I think it's really great just to like land that in practical, you know. 388 00:39:16,136.1299075 --> 00:39:26,986.1299075 And as you were just sharing those examples, it really does help, you know, kind of just become more aware of how this is playing out in the way that we think, in the way that we live, the way that we interact, and the way that we minister as well. 389 00:39:27,294.1914075 --> 00:39:27,704.1914075 Right. 390 00:39:27,706.1289075 --> 00:39:48,327.1082999 So, Looking forward, as you've just released your book, Have We Lost Our Minds? What do you hope will be the lasting impact of your work and how the church understands human nature and approaches spiritual formation? one of the things that Dallas Willard said, about on his deathbed, he was near, his passing, he knew that, he called J. 391 00:39:48,327.1092999 --> 00:39:48,767.1092999 P. 392 00:39:48,817.1082999 --> 00:39:51,837.1092999 to his bedside, and they had a last visit, and J. 393 00:39:51,837.1092999 --> 00:39:52,17.1087999 P. 394 00:39:52,17.1087999 --> 00:39:56,17.1092999 shares about this in his eulogy at Dallas service. 395 00:39:56,47.1082999 --> 00:39:58,327.1092999 It's online, you can find it easily, I think. 396 00:39:59,277.1092999 --> 00:40:10,757.5233605 But Dallas said, one of my two great fears is that the spiritual formation movement will not be ground in increasingly, sophisticated, philosophical and theological underpinnings. 397 00:40:10,877.5223605 --> 00:40:16,397.4233605 In other words, we'll get off track because we won't understand better and better what the human person is. 398 00:40:17,343.4928518 --> 00:40:29,180.3107109 and in other writings, it's clear he meant either we'll go a physicalist route, or we'll kind of go a hyper spiritual route, this Cartesian route, or even more of a kind of a pantheistic route it could go into. 399 00:40:29,704.5635736 --> 00:40:34,194.4635736 that's my hope, is that this book in some small way contributes to the vision of being. 400 00:40:34,524.5635736 --> 00:40:49,4.5635736 Dallas Word and others to help us as a people, as a body, as the people of Christ, to develop a more and more robust theology and philosophy of the human person and therefore of human flourishing. 401 00:40:49,409.834407 --> 00:40:51,489.833407 So, you've mentioned your book quite a lot. 402 00:40:51,499.834407 --> 00:41:01,148.815657 How can people find out more about it and connect with you online? So yeah, the title is, um, have we lost our minds? Neuroscience, Neurotheology. 403 00:41:01,528.815657 --> 00:41:03,588.815657 The soul and human flourishing. 404 00:41:04,258.815657 --> 00:41:05,708.815657 And, uh, it's on Amazon. 405 00:41:06,92.3408443 --> 00:41:09,222.2408443 it's also on my website, stanwallace. 406 00:41:09,222.3408443 --> 00:41:12,490.2800443 org with a little video trailer of why I think it's important. 407 00:41:12,490.2800443 --> 00:41:18,174.3261122 Some of the things I've shared here, place to download the introduction and first chapter to get a feel for it. 408 00:41:18,174.3261122 --> 00:41:18,674.3251122 I think. 409 00:41:19,455.6732584 --> 00:41:29,5.6732584 and then I've also got an author's page on Facebook, Stan Wallace, D Man, where, uh, there's some interaction going on on some of these issues, so, uh, yeah, I'd love to have listeners check those out. 410 00:41:29,467.6107583 --> 00:41:30,17.6107583 Awesome. 411 00:41:30,87.6107583 --> 00:41:30,467.6107583 Awesome. 412 00:41:30,467.6107583 --> 00:41:35,227.6107583 Well, I'm going to make sure to put that in the show notes for those who are driving or are busy doing things. 413 00:41:35,507.6107583 --> 00:41:37,897.6107583 So you can go back and you can find those links there. 414 00:41:38,387.6107583 --> 00:41:48,339.0065917 Stan, as we wrap this up, any final words of encouragement or insight that you'd like to share with our listeners? God has revealed truth these matters. 415 00:41:48,339.0065917 --> 00:41:53,379.0054416 We sometimes think, boy, we can't understand or really, knowledge of what we are. 416 00:41:53,762.0371349 --> 00:41:57,136.9371349 and I'd want to encourage listeners to know that, no, we can, we can know these things. 417 00:41:57,623.4050766 --> 00:42:02,753.4050766 based on that knowledge, we can live well, we can flourish, and we can help others live well. 418 00:42:02,833.4050766 --> 00:42:04,313.4050766 We can minister well to others. 419 00:42:04,436.73841 --> 00:42:12,56.73741 and yes, it might take some work to wrestle through some of these issues, but most things worth knowing take a little bit of work. 420 00:42:12,438.9394615 --> 00:42:22,608.8716899 nobody's going to become, uh, as Dallas elsewhere says, you know, we don't think anything of it for somebody to spend years and years studying dentistry or, surgery, before they start. 421 00:42:22,898.8716899 --> 00:42:25,748.8716899 Actually engaging in, in their work. 422 00:42:25,748.8716899 --> 00:42:39,292.2050232 And, uh, in the same way, yeah, we need to be serious about doing anthropology, studying what we can know about what we are so we can be better and better at living well and helping others live well. 423 00:42:40,30.8091898 --> 00:42:40,860.8091898 So good, Stan. 424 00:42:40,870.8091898 --> 00:42:41,420.8091898 Thank you. 425 00:42:41,430.8091898 --> 00:42:43,670.8091898 With those final words, we're going to say goodbye to you. 426 00:42:43,670.8091898 --> 00:42:44,684.9398641 Thank you for your time. 427 00:42:44,780.9091898 --> 00:42:59,500.8091898 It's definitely a different type of topic that we've had on the podcast, but nonetheless, it is highly important for us to dive into these topics and actually begin to ask what does it mean to be human and how does it affect the way that we live? So thank you for sharing your insights. 428 00:42:59,500.8091898 --> 00:43:00,980.8091898 It's been extremely valuable. 429 00:43:01,18.8716899 --> 00:43:01,279.8404399 you. 430 00:43:01,279.8404399 --> 00:43:01,719.8404399 Appreciate it. 431 00:43:01,719.8404399 --> 00:43:03,279.8404399 Thanks so much to have me on the show. 432 00:43:04,309.956493 --> 00:43:07,699.956493 But I hope that you enjoyed this episode of the Lausanne Movement Podcast. 433 00:43:08,59.956493 --> 00:43:14,479.956493 If you liked this episode, why don't you take a moment to give us a rating and review? And give us a shout out on social media. 434 00:43:15,159.956493 --> 00:43:23,149.956493 next week, we'll be back with another episode that we hope will inspire you to accelerate global mission within your own space. 435 00:43:23,869.956493 --> 00:43:24,829.956493 Until next week.