What if the Church’s evangelistic crisis isn’t about culture—but about conviction? And what if the way forward isn’t more methods, but deeper surrender?
In this episode of the Lausanne Movement Podcast, Dr. Desmond Henry, Lausanne catalyst for proclamation evangelism and International Director of the Global Network of Evangelists for Palau, joins us for a compelling conversation on why evangelism often feels sidelined in today’s church—and why it must remain central to God’s mission. He shares insights on the tensions, misunderstandings, and future of evangelism, and challenges ministry leaders to embrace a Spirit-empowered lifestyle of gospel witness.
If this episode challenged and encouraged you, share it with someone who’s passionate about mission and leadership. Don’t forget to subscribe, leave a review, and explore more resources at lausanne.org.
📚 Links & Resources
- Palau Association - https://www.palau.org/
- Lausanne Global Classroom: Proclamation Evangelism - https://lausanne.org/global-classroom/proclamation-evangelism
- Advance Groups (Mentoring Guide for Evangelists) - https://www.advancegroups.org/
- Life in 6 Words App - https://li6w.com/
- Connect with Desmond Henry - https://www.desmond-henry.com/
Guest Bio:
Desmond Henry is a missional thought-leader, professor of missiology, author, speaker, and practitioner committed to advancing global evangelism. As the International Director of the Global Network of Evangelists for Palau, he leads a global movement to identify, equip, mobilise, and support evangelists in reaching millions with the Gospel. In addition to his main role at Palau, Dr. Henry serves as Chairman of the Conspectus Journal at the South African Theological Seminary; Catalyst for the Lausanne Proclamation Evangelism Network; and Research Fellow for Lausanne Insights on Global Horizons and Trends, contributing to global thought leadership in missiology. Through his leadership at Palau, Lausanne, and beyond, Dr. Henry helps shape the future of gospel outreach strategies, ensuring evangelism remains bold, innovative, and biblically faithful. He is married to Lara, and together they have three daughters: Gabriella, Annabella, and Olivia.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
We are so, we're so easily or dis distracted by calling people to our brand of Christianity rather than calling them to a relationship with Jesus Christ.
In fact, Barna found in a recent study, 47% of millennial Christians think that evangelism is wrong, but at the same time, 65% of them say that it is essential to their faith.
(00:23):
We have to think of ourselves not only within the confines of the church and bringing people to church, but, but taking church or taking Christ rather to people.
A very warm welcome to the Lausanne Movement podcast.
For those who have a passion to accelerate global mission together, my name is Jason Watson, and today we have a great conversation lined up for you with Desmond Henry, the Lasagne Catalyst Proclamation, evangelism, and International Director of the Global Network of Evangelists for Palau.
(00:58):
During our time together, Des shares fresh insights on why a evangelism remains central to God's mission.
Why it often stirs tension in the global church today and offers practical wisdom for ministry leaders who wanna rekindle the culture of proclamation in their communities.
And so if you're eager to be challenged in your understanding of evangelism and want to hear how God is moving across the world today, I want to invite you to grab your headphones and let's dive into today's interview with Dr.
(01:29):
Desmond Henry.
Well, Desmond Henry, welcome to the podcast.
It's great to have you here.
Awesome to be here.
Jason.
Thank you.
Yeah, I'll say to you all fair.
I, I appreciate the moments where I can have the interviews in person, um, and especially in my home country, South Africa.
So thank you for joining.
(01:49):
I.
Absolutely.
Yeah, this is amazing.
In person is far better than online, right? The only thing is the filter doesn't help, you know, kind of how I look in person as much.
Well, I think you look great, but, oh, we'll leave that to the audience.
There we go.
We'll be doing a vote later on, you know, taking a, you know, assessment.
Yeah.
Okay.
Sounds good.
So there's, uh, I know you very well, but I would love for you to have a moment just to share with our audience a little bit about who you are, and particularly our conversation today is around evangelism, where your passion for evangelism and God's kingdom came from.
(02:21):
I.
Right.
Well, I mean, most people who know me know that I work for Palau, which is an evangelism ministry, and it's a joy to serve there.
Uh, but I see myself really as three things.
And because I'm a a Baptist, they're iterate too.
Right? So I, I'm an encourager, an equipper, and an evangelist.
And the work that I do kind of gets summarized in those three things, really, you know, an encourage of other leaders.
(02:44):
I think there's enough discouragement in, in ministry these days, and so I love to just come alongside others, encourage them and, uh, just be a blessing to them.
But they also equip leaders and equip students, uh, with the tools they need.
For ministry in our cultural moment, it'll help them to fulfill the mission of God.
And then thirdly, an evangelist.
(03:05):
Now, probably 20 years ago, I would never have referred myself as an evangelist.
And, and to be honest, it's taken me some time to think of myself in those ways.
Uh, but here we are and, uh, I see myself as an evangelist.
And so those are three things that kind of define, you know, who I am as such.
Yeah, I mean, I appreciate the honesty that it is, 'cause we've known each other for a while.
(03:26):
Uh, you served in the church that, uh, I'm still a part of.
And, um, I wouldn't have described you as an evangelist back then.
You were a pastor.
Right? And, and so could you share with us how you came to form a love for evangelism? You always had a love for mission, right? Um, I remember that from the start, but evangelism is a bit, you know, it's, it's part of that.
And so I'd love to hear where that particular passion came from.
(03:48):
Well, I mean, I think looking at, at how Christ kind of saved me is, is really where it all began.
And so for me, firstly, uh, my journey with Christianity started at the invitation of a bus driver who invited me to come to church.
I.
And his invitation led to the complete transformation of my life.
And so that was the one thing that retrospectively looking back as a, you know, older geriatric, geriatric Gen Z leader, okay, millennial, as a millennial looking kind of back, that, that really had an effect on me as well.
(04:21):
But, but more than that, you know, my first Sunday school teacher, grace, uh, led me to the Lord and she proclaimed the gospel to me in very simple terms, which then thirdly led her to ask.
Would you like to be a follower of Jesus? And that led to a deep transformation in my own personal life.
And those three things, you know, invitation, proclamation, and transformation, uh, were something that was so real to me and I've seen replicated in so many other different ways, uh, that, that kind of, that has impacted me in my current ministry.
(04:57):
Um, and why I think of myself as an evangelist really.
Yeah.
So I, I would love for us to take this conversation into the, into the realm of evangelism.
And one of the things I picked up, the more I engage in global mission space is, is the division that word causes, right? Um, but before we get there and we dive into that pool too quickly, you know, you mentioned that you're part of, uh, the Louis Palau Association and, uh, you've had the privilege and opportunity to, to travel.
(05:28):
World and engage with evangelists and people passionate about proclaiming the gospel, um, and eng engaging in global mission.
And I would love just to hear your perspective on the, on, on what's happening globally when it comes to evangelism.
Is there disengagement? Is there like a growing engagement? Is there something between or something completely different? Uh, could you just give us a pulse on global evangelism? Wow.
(05:53):
And all that.
Within three minutes.
Come on.
Well, I mean, I, I think there's so many different perspectives.
I just came back from a trip to Japan where we're talking about encouraging evangelists within that context, and the, the kind of term evangelist was something that.
That came up.
And I think the very meaning of the word or term evangelist in their culture spoke volumes to how they value or, you know, maybe don't value that term.
(06:18):
And the actual word evangelist when you refer to someone within the local church, uh, kind of has the implication that it's someone who is, you know, not yet a pastor or is an assistant pastor, or maybe one day will become a pastor, but kind of.
They're an evangelist right now.
Wow.
And so it's not a separate thing.
It's kind of seen as a less than kind of a thing.
(06:39):
And so evangelism, I think globally speaking depends on where you're at will, will really impact, um, how you perceive the world.
And I think definitely we're at a crossroads when it comes to evangelism in many different ways.
Uh, in the West, I think we are seeing a decline and, uh, and many different people write about this.
I've been surprised even with our, you know, Canadian, uh, leadership, uh, commentator, uh, Kerry Nho on his podcast, uh, recently where he's speaking about evangelism and, and how evangelism has seen a massive decline in the West.
(07:13):
And I think partly that's due to secularization defense of the gospel itself.
But, but more than that, I think, uh, you know, we, we look at different places in Africa and we might say, you know, evangelism is alive and well, but the, the problem with evangelism in some of the African spaces and majority world spaces is simply, you know.
(07:34):
I think we, we are so, we are so easily or dis distracted by calling people to our brand of Christianity.
You know, encouraging them to connect with our bishop or apostle or prophet, rather than calling them to a relationship with Jesus Christ.
And so our evangelism is centered on ecclesiology, not on soteriology.
(07:57):
So it's not really the gospel.
It is, come to my version of the church and you will.
Be saved, blessed, et cetera.
And I think that's not the gospel.
And so when we speak about evangelism in today's world, it is a, a highly, uh, it can be a highly explosive term that cause different reactions, but let's be mindful of the fact that it is a biblical term, a profoundly biblical term.
(08:26):
More so even in the term mission.
Yeah.
Uh, and I'm a mythologist, right? And so for me to say that that's pretty, but I mean, the truth is mission is not a necessarily a, a, a Greek or Hebrew word.
Right? It has been conceptualized in, in a different kind of way.
And so looking at the word evangelism in the corpus of the New Testament, we, we cannot escape its central importance to our lives, um, as, as Christians.
(08:50):
And I think that's something we need to come back to.
Yeah.
So, uh, on that, can you define for us when we're talking about evangelism, what is the biblical meaning of evangelism? Yeah.
Because I have been reflecting on this, this fact that mission is isn't necessarily a biblical word, which I'm okay with because Trinity is not violent on the scriptures either, right? So, so it's a word that we, we attribute meaning to.
(09:12):
Mm-hmm.
Uh, that.
Differences that you can attribute any meaning to a word.
And I think that's partly the tension I experience when it comes to talking to people about evangelism because.
The moment you say, oh, I am an evangelist, or let's do evangelism.
It, it prompts different pictures in every single one of our minds.
And I think the example that you used of Japan is a helpful one.
(09:35):
I've never heard of that.
Kind of like stepping stone progression.
So, so what does the scriptures actually say about evangelism? Yeah.
Again, evangelism very simply is the, the, the verbal declaration of the gospel, which is the good news, uh, and, and what that means for us as individuals.
And so evangelism is quite simply proclaiming the good news of Jesus', death, burial, resurrection, uh, and his offer of eternal life.
(10:04):
What, what better can there be for us as believers than that? Good news, right? Yeah.
So, so Des I have a question connected to that definition.
You know, we, we, we have that kind of, this, this reference point that, uh, that the good news is just about eternity.
Mm-hmm.
But, but as I look into the scriptures, the good news is more than just, I gotta get a heaven one day.
(10:26):
And so in that proclamation of the good news.
Is there something more to it than just give your life to Jesus so you don't go to hell? Or is there, is there something more integrated in terms of the proc, what you're proclaiming? Yeah.
Yeah.
Great question.
I think that's, that's often the problem when it comes to evangelism.
We think, oh, it's just about getting into, you know, getting your ticket to heaven.
(10:48):
Securing your eternal life.
And I think that's, that's fallacious.
It's not just about that because we know, looking at history, the Protestant church movement, um, in, in the last hundred years, that we have a phenomena described as redemption and lift.
Paul in second Corinthians.
Five describes it as part of being a new creation.
The old has gone, the new has come, and he's given to us this ministry of reconciliation.
(11:12):
We are therefore Christ's ambassadors as though he was making his appeal through us.
And, and so the whole redemptive part of what it means to come to faith in Jesus not only affects our lives for eternity, but it changes.
Our reality in the present.
And so redemption being saved, uh, for all eternity, God changing our life and our heart changes our personal circumstances.
(11:36):
I've seen that in my own life, and I've witnessed this in the life of lives of people that, that often I wonder.
Is there hope for them? 'cause there's, it feels like they're too far gone sometimes.
Like, wow, if God could take this life that was given over to drug abuse and alcoholism and, and all kinds of different sin and, and completely turn that around in a way that, that physically and, and emotionally.
(12:03):
And in every other way kind of shows the transformative power of the gospel.
It gives me hope that, of course, our mission is beyond just eternal salvation.
And it includes, of course, uh, what we see in, in the broader mission of God.
Yeah.
So you, I would like to talk about the, the fact that the word evangelism seems to be polarizing mm-hmm.
(12:27):
In global mission particularly.
Right.
Um, you know, when I was just in the local min local church ministry, evangelism wasn't polarizing.
It was just a tension of like, we got to, we got to share the good news and how are we gonna do that? And, and just coming out of the fourth zone Congress, it was fascinating to me.
On the one side, you had people saying there was so much talk about evangelism at the Congress too much.
(12:52):
And then on the other side, we are hearing there was no talk about evangelism at the Congress and it was all about integral mission.
And, and everyone has their, you know, their passion and, and I think that is part of what it means to be a part of the global body.
Yeah.
Uh, but why do you believe evangelism has become so polarizing? Within Global Mission? Well, I mean, I, I think, you know, evangelism in many ways, con, confronts a number of our cultural idols that we have.
(13:21):
It's also been misunderstood and misapplied.
And so there are probably good reasons why people would look at evangelists or evangelism and, and kind of push back a little and say, hold on, is this relevant? Is this good for us in our day? And of course, we live in an age of suspicion, um, as well, where people are just naturally suspicious.
(13:42):
Uh, and, and, and many Christians, in fact, Barna found in a recent study, 47% of millennial Christians think that evangelism is wrong, right? So they're highly suspicious of this, but at the same time, 65% of them say that it is essential to their faith.
And so the question is like, what is that line that we then cross that takes it from being essential to my faith, to, to being.
(14:06):
This is not a good thing for me or for, for my life.
Stereotypes, uh, you know, evangelism has got those stereotypes too, where people think of a quintessential evangelist, you know, with some kind of, you know, microphone yelling at people walking down the street, or aggressive sales tactics.
You know, get your ticket to heaven, you know, say this prayer, raise your hand.
(14:27):
Um, and, and that's, that's not what evangelism is necessarily all about.
Um, and, and I think sometimes even a sense of.
Fear and shame.
You know, what happens if I do proclaim the gospel? What happens if I do reach out or step out in this way and, and I feel un reject or people don't kind of accept this, this invitation, uh, there's a sense of fear that people naturally have.
(14:51):
Uh, as well, but I think primarily in our day and age, secularization very often has pushed faith to the margins and has made kind of evangelism seem unnecessary in our day and age.
Why evangelize when you can just good, do good things when you could just help the pearl or, or feed the sick? And the truth is, if everything is mission.
(15:15):
Nothing is mission.
And so I think we have to go back to the quintessential mission, uh, and that quintessential, quintessential mission, uh, is, you know, what, what others refer to.
And I guess is also trigger term too integral prioritization, right? Where I think we need both.
But the one of course, evangelism, as I understand it in the scriptures, is that leading edge or the spear tip, and then everything else kind of follows after that.
(15:45):
So can you unpack that for us when you're talking about, um, the spear tip? Yeah.
Well, I mean, I think so if, if you look at the whole history of, of lo and the different, um, sort of conferences and documents and movements and, and some of the different streams within lo you mentioned two of them primarily.
You know, those who have a holistic.
View of mission and those who prioritize evangelism.
(16:08):
And it seems like never the two shall meet.
Uh, but if we, if we look at some of the history of the Anne movement, uh, we, we have to learn from some of the challenges of the past.
And I think we got into the space where everything was mission.
Uh, and if everything is mission, the truth is nothing is mission because.
Everything we do doesn't necessarily align with the, the, the importance of that within the word of God, and, and evangelism is part of the heartbeat of God.
(16:36):
It's expressed throughout the Bible that God desires every person.
To encounter his son Jesus Christ, in a very real way that changes their eternity, but changes their life in the care and now as well.
And so that is of primary importance to God.
And so that should be our primary importance as well.
(16:57):
But of course there are other things that.
Are of, I wouldn't say equal importance, but are of great importance to us as believers.
And, and that is what leads kind of, or follows rather, uh, an evangelistic thrust or evangelistic heart.
And so it's important for us to share the gospel with people, uh, to be truthful about what we believe as.
(17:19):
Believers and not hide our beliefs in any way or, or couch it beyond, uh, or behind good intentions, but to, to lead with that.
And the truth is the gospel will always be confrontational.
It confronts our sin.
It confronts who we are and our need of Christ about the gospel is a gospel of grace and a gospel of forgiveness.
(17:42):
Uh, and that is something that the world desperately needs almost beyond anything else that we can provide as believers.
So there's, you are particularly in the proclamation space right now, right? And, uh, perhaps you can share a little bit about what you do with lau.
Um, very much proclaiming the gospel.
(18:03):
Yeah, I'd be curious to hear from you.
I mean, I would imagine that.
People have come to you and said, I had critiques right? And I'm pretty sure that some might be exaggerated and some might be true and relevant.
So could you take an honest moment with us and say.
(18:24):
You've been in this space, what are the genuinely concerning things when it comes to proclamation evangelism particularly? Hmm.
I remember I'm a mythologist, uh, and an evangelist, so I kind of wear two hats, uh, uh, in that sense as well.
But I think there are valid concerns for people.
I think anyone who has a platform ministry, um, we have to make sure that our personal lives.
(18:49):
Really reflect and align with what we do on the platform.
And I think that's been one of the greatest criticisms of evangelists and certainly in the last couple of decades, is, you know, are they living in that, in what they preach basically when they're not on the platform.
And so that's something to be aware of as well.
Another thing is, you know, sometimes evangelists.
(19:10):
Can appear to be transactional in a sense.
You know, it's so, it's, you know, they, they're kind of preaching for a result.
They want people to make a decision for Jesus Christ.
And, and, and I think sometimes, uh, some, some evangelists can be more about the numbers than there are about the lives and people that are transformed, uh, in that sense too, uh, to secular audiences, I think it could be perceived as.
(19:34):
Coercive or manipulative, um, you know, are they trying to manipulate people into making a decision in this particular moment? Um, but the bigger problem is the, the claim of exclusivity of Jesus Christ.
Uh, and for many in a pluralistic secular worldview, that is the one thing that they would completely object to that Christ is.
(19:55):
Exclusive and, and in fact, that is the unique message of Christianity.
And that's, uh, interestingly why we find ourself in the cultural challenges that we find ourselves in today.
Uh, and so I think in the midst of all of this, the gospel is to be proclaimed with bold humility.
What do I mean by that? Uh, I think in our cultural age, we need to be humble.
(20:18):
Uh, we need to be incarnational.
We need to, uh, embody Christ.
In the world within which we live.
But there also needs to be a sense of boldness where we, we boldly proclaim the good news of Jesus coming his death and resurrection and what a life surrender to Jesus, uh, can become ultimately in the hands of God.
(20:39):
And so I think that is something that is so important for us to, to.
Keep central in our lives, uh, in all this kind of stuff.
And so evangelists are not everyone's cup of tea.
They're very passionate people, but there is not one single methodology of evangelism.
And that is the one thing that I would say to people who would critique proclamation evangelism.
(21:01):
At Palau, we celebrate.
Every kind of evangelism that shares the gospel message of people.
Because I think so often in Christianity, we, or in Christendom, if you like, we, we are so critical of each other and critical of methodologies and critical of, of all kinds of, of ways that we're trying to reach the lost, so to say.
(21:23):
Uh.
Very often, those who are critical don't have a strategy to engage the lost.
And so it doesn't surprise me that most churches today are not growing, that most denominations are stagnant or in decline because most denominations don't have a strategy or plan for evangelism.
Most local churches don't have a plan for evangelism.
And so how we see evangelism in the light of God's creativity and how we are wired, I think will speak volumes to how God could use us for his kingdom's sake.
(21:53):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, as you were mentioning, I think as I reflect on my own local church experience, very much influenced by the seeker model, right? Right.
And so the, the model was create a good church, give it the lights, give it the cameras, the action, and, uh, use the stage as the tool to, to reach people.
(22:16):
Right.
That, I mean, at least that's the church model I grew up in.
Yeah.
And, and that.
Doesn't seem to be working as well as it used to.
Right.
Do you have anything to say about that? I, I, I mean, yes.
Yes.
I have so much to say about that, but I think, uh, I mean, as a millennial, that's something that we embraced very much and kind of, you know, the, the growth of Christian worship music, the way we understand it today, kind of came in my era of becoming a young adult and, and it's, it's been fascinating.
(22:44):
Seeing how things have changed and, and, and even how, you know, church expressions, uh, whether you're Baptist or Methodist or, you know, Pentecostal Presbyterian, uh, matters less today because it sort of looks very similar in practice, uh, as I've been fascinated by that.
But I think.
You know, looking at the, the Old Testament and New Testament, we see that there is a both and model where there is an attractional, but also a missional elements.
(23:10):
And I think very often we, we prefer the attractional method, uh, because it kind of feels like we're putting, you know, we're, we're being creative.
We we're trying our very best, you know, we're trying to reach.
The people in that sense, and of, of course, they're gonna come to us, right? Because, you know, we have the lights and, and the problem is we, we kind of make culture the, the goal that we are pursuing cultural relevance.
(23:37):
Sure.
Uh, rather than biblical standards.
And the truth is we've gotta then compete with whatever culture throws at us.
And so what is the end game? Right? It's never gonna be.
Ending at all is gonna keep competing with culture.
Keep trying to be relevant.
Uh, and and that's an endless game that would just never, never, ever end.
Which is why I think we have to be missional.
(23:58):
I.
We have to think of ourselves not only within the confines of the church and bringing people to church, but, but taking church or taking Christ rather to people.
And so rather than bringing the unsafe to church to hear the pastor or leader or, or whatever, you know, preach the gospel and them accepting Jesus, why aren't we doing that in our own personal lives? I think one of the greatest.
(24:23):
Blessings of our era is simply the multiplication of ministry through the people of God in the workplace, um, on the streets, in, in communities, and in in, in neighborhoods.
And I think that presents us with a fundamental shift in how we do and see ministry.
Attractional, I think, has its place.
It's not gonna go anywhere anytime soon.
(24:45):
But I think there is a definite shift where people see through some of the.
The sort of darker sides of the shadow side, if you like, of the attractional model and are hungry for something more, something real, something missional.
And so it's a both and kind of approach and in both ways.
You can share the gospel in both ways.
(25:05):
You can evangelize, uh, but of course I think it's a both and not all.
Yeah.
Uh, I really appreciate you just shedding lights on that and, and mentioning some of the trends that have affected the church.
There are some trends that are happening right now that, that also are affecting the church.
Uh, I was speaking to a leader yesterday who, um, very much is affected by that seeker model, um, involved in the Global Leadership Summit, all those kind of streams.
(25:33):
And, and he was saying to me, you know, I, I at risk feels as if the church is heading into a spiritual formation, more discipleship focus kind of direction.
And, and I'd be curious to hear from you.
Uh.
In terms of, of receiving critiques, you know, that's one thing to be on the defense.
Yeah.
It's another to, to be a proponent for a key aspect of what God is calling us to.
(25:58):
He's calling us into, to evangelize.
He's gifted the church with evangelists.
Yeah.
And, and what, what do, like, so as you, as you reflect forward.
What concerns you about the state of evangelism and, and maybe some of the new trends that are happening within the global church? Yeah, I mean, I think, I think we, we really need to talk about these things because I think it helps us to develop a framework within which to live our lives as God's people in this moment.
(26:29):
'cause there is so much that is happening out in this world for sure.
I think on the discipleship front, one of the dangers that we've seen, so evidently is how we tend to programatize uh, our discipleship.
And I don't think Jesus had a program to disciple people with.
It wasn't content driven.
It was missional.
It was life on life.
(26:49):
And I think we need to come around to a lot of that as well.
And of course, evangelism is key to discipleship, just like.
Discipleship is key to evangelism.
It's two sides of the same coin.
And in fact, if you're discipling someone and they have not evangelized, you have not done your job in discipling them, it is so critical that you take what you've been given and that you actually go and share the good news with other people.
(27:14):
It's part of your journey, and that's what Jesus did, even with his disciples as well.
Um, and so when it comes to evangelism, I think there's a, there's a real trend out there in fact.
I was speaking to some of our young leaders in the UK who recently did a, a gathering of Gen Z leaders and there was a lot of excitements.
And in fact, there's been articles written by a number of different Christian outlets about revival broke loose, um, in this UK event.
(27:38):
And I think, um.
That's something that we need to be cautious about, kind of saying, and I, the words I used to encourage this young leader was that we need to be very cautious about our desire for revival or too readily kind of claiming there's been a revival in the particular place or time.
(28:00):
Um, because I think in our day and age, we have the propensity to think we could manufacture revival on the one hand.
And on the other hand, we have this insatiable.
Desire that almost becomes idolatrous that we are seeking revival.
Now you might wonder, well, what is the problem with that? You know, don't we want to see revival? Don't we wanna see God, you know, come and disrupt the, the spiritual apathy and the indifference of our day and age? And, and, but here's the thing.
(28:32):
I think we've got it wrong in terms of our definition of revival.
We've got it wrong in terms of what revival.
Is biblically and historically, and again, revival isn't just a emotional hide, isn't just a, a great feeling that we get that, you know, when we worship in God.
Uh, if we look at the scriptures and we study that, we see that Rev Revival wasn't an event.
(28:58):
It was a movement.
So it's an event that sparked a movement, and I think that is true.
In Acts chapter two, the event of Pentecost sparked a movement of God's people.
In Acts chapter four, prayer meetings shook the house that they gathered in.
It took, it, took them to the streets where they evangelized and reach people.
And in fact, in, in X chapter four, we see the whole.
(29:21):
Town was shaken by the good news of the gospel.
That is revival.
And I think we have to be so cautious of our pursuit of revival that we really miss, um, the relationship with Jesus part of it really.
Um, and so the fruits of revival is, again, holiness and joy and righteousness and evangelism.
(29:44):
Uh, and I think that's so crucial and key.
In fact, we, the, the Great Commission of the Book of Acts, acts chapter one.
You know, you'll be filled with the Holy Spirit and then you'll be my witnesses.
One of the very first signs of the infilling of the Holy Spirit is being a witness to King Jesus.
Yeah.
And as you were speaking, I was just reminded of a book that a a w Tozer wrote on the Holy Spirit.
(30:09):
And one of the chapters is, is entitled, um, how to Be Filled With the Spirit.
And the first question he asks is, do you really want to be filled with the Holy Spirit? Because if you really want the Holy Spirits.
There's consequences to that, like positive ones right? For you.
But it is a cost.
Um, one of them is obedience, the other is proclamation.
(30:29):
And so as, as you mentioned, and so I think you, you know, I, I for 1:00 AM hungry to see renewal and revival.
Absolutely.
And we praying that upon our church and we praying it upon the globe.
And, and, uh, but the real question for our church should actually be, do you really want this? Are you just in pursuit of an experience or are you in pursuit of a relationship, which leads to real world implications? Uh, yeah.
(30:56):
So, so how can we, how can we begin to turn the tide when we talking about evangelism? How can we begin to, to, to kind of just bring a shift in focus to this idea that we are called to share the gospel with others.
Great question.
I think firstly, we need to change our theology framework.
Uh, very often we tend to neglect a missional theology, uh, seeing our ministry, seeing our life, seeing what we do through God's mission.
(31:25):
And I think I.
Us understanding that God is the first evangelist, he's the proto evangelist, if you like.
Right? And in fact in the Psalms he says, you know, the heavens declare the glory of God.
The scars proclaim his righteousness.
Day after day they pour forth speech.
There's this amazing natural revelation where, where God is speaking.
And I think we need to come back to that and understand if, if God is that proto.
(31:50):
Evangelist if, if God is for once of a better term, you know, um, or Jesus is God's first missionary sent to this world on a mission of redemption, what does that mean for us as God's people and for the church? And I think that that really makes a difference in our mindset and approach to ministry.
We really think through what it means to have a missional ecclesiology that shapes what we do in evangelism.
(32:15):
Uh, I think the other thing is, you know, evangelism has to be a lifestyle, not a program.
You know, there's not a checklist you gotta do.
Uh, you have to be committed to evangelism.
And it's a challenge.
I'm, I'm a part of a group we're called Christians Love these acronyms.
Gar, GAR, global Advancing, no Gospel Advancing Revolutionaries.
(32:36):
Right.
Uh, a good friend of mine, Greg Steer is, is leading that, that group up.
And, and I love, every month when we meet, we've been challenged like.
How are you doing in, in personally sharing the gospel with your friends, uh, and not friends and loved ones? You know, the, the loss that you encounter.
And I find that personally so refreshing to have someone even ask me that question, uh, because I think we've lost that as, as leaders, we become so consumed and busy by so many other.
(33:03):
Sometimes important things, but not ultimate things that we as leaders would look back on a year or maybe two or three years and we have not taken the time to share the gospel with someone who might be in desperate need for that of that.
And so it's a lifestyle.
It's something that's gotta be modeled by us as individuals.
Uh, but I think.
You know, we have to be wise about it.
(33:24):
Uh, many, many who'd be listening to this podcast maybe asking, what do I do as a church leader? Uh, I think if, if it's not in your diary, it's not gonna happen, right? And, uh, so we have to think through, look at the whole structure of a year and say, what can we use? As natural points of Evangelism in our year, Eastern Christmas, those are natural points.
But what other Mother's Day, father's Day, what other public holidays do you have that you could embrace where people would maybe more naturally, uh, come, here's the attractional model, come to church or be invited to a church event.
(33:58):
And then here's the thing to ask.
Once a year, what can we do as a church to proclaim and demonstrate both and right the go, the Gus Gospel gospel, get that right.
Eventually proclaim and demonstrate the gospel in our particular communities.
And I think if we, if we put that in an outreach calendar, I think it would be most helpful for us as we look at the year and plan it in that kind of way.
(34:24):
But then lastly, I think even just.
Sharing testimonies, uh, within a faith community con context can be so helpful.
Uh, what I, what do I mean by that? What kind of testimonies? Well, you know, maybe someone came to faith and they could share, this is how I came to faith.
Or, or maybe even a testimony of, Hey, this week I shared the good news with this person.
(34:45):
And it was awful.
It was a, I really struggled and they, they didn't respond at all.
And, but I'm gonna give it a go and try again, uh, to share in authentic ways and encourage other people to do not only what is important, but to do that, which is.
Ultimate Now I really appreciate you going into the direction of application and, and maybe let's keep going in that space, you know, what words of advice would you give? So you mentioned to the church pastor, uh, what about the ministry leaders that are not church pastors? 'cause there's many of them that are listening to this right now.
(35:21):
What words of advice would you have for them? God has placed you in a context shine for him wherever God, God has placed you.
I mean, sounds like a simple kind of truth, but I think we often look to our, um, our, you know, professionals as such within the church and we, we put place so much on them.
I.
You know, the pastor, the evangelist, you know, these are the professionals.
(35:42):
You handle that part of stuff, where the truth is that if you're filled with the Holy Spirit, uh, God can gift you to reach people that the professionals cannot reach.
The professionals are.
Running the business of the church most times during the week, you as a professional, are in the context, uh, to to where people would kind of look to you, uh, and who would never be in the orbit of a church or a pastor as such.
(36:09):
And so I think you have such an advantage in, in authentically engaging people who would never darken the doorway of a church.
And I think that's key attractional.
You can invite them to church, but missional live out your witness in front of them.
And I think that that is such a helpful thing for us.
And so, I mean, just on the practical side of it, um, there's a really great app I mentioned, um, Greg Steer that I find so helpful.
(36:35):
And it's called, uh, life in Six Words App.
I think it's an amazing app that helps me to do a few things to, to pray.
To, to care, to share and to dare.
And so that's interesting, right? So to pray for the lost.
So pray every day for people who are around me, uh, for even if you don't know their name, the barber, you know, for the, you know, barista, uh, you know, to pray for my friend at the gym, you know? And then to, to care, to ask God for opportunities to show the love of God to them.
(37:10):
Not in a manufacture manipulative way, but in a genuine way.
Befriend people, right? Um, and, and, and then, and then ultimately, you know, kind of share the gospel with people in a natural kind of way.
And here's the thing, the, the gospel is such a beautiful thing.
Why would we not share it with people? It shouldn't be.
(37:32):
Abnormal for us as Christians, it shouldn't be something that we, we cannot insert into conversations.
In fact, if we truly believe that the gospel is of utmost importance, uh, then we would be doing people a disservice if we don't share it with them.
Right.
We'd be condemning them.
So it's the most loving thing we can do is to share the gospel with people.
(37:53):
Uh, and then of course the dare part is, you know, literally just to.
You know, be proactive about reaching people within that prayer care, uh, and their circle of yours.
And so that is an app that helps me.
Some people even write it down on a prayer card.
Uh, pray for people if you, if you're praying for it, if you're mindful of it, it is more likely something that you would action in your own personal life.
(38:18):
Uh, I love the resource.
Are there any other resources that you can recommend to those listening you saying, you know what I, I.
I want to make this a part of my life or part of my ministry.
Yes.
Where can you send them? Well, I mean, firstly, the losan uh, ecosystem has amazing resources.
Uh, we did a global classroom on proclamation evangelism at the end of last year, which I think is a great resource to understanding theologically and practically what evangelism is.
(38:46):
Uh, we're just completing a series on elevating evangelism with.
Different panels of people, which again, would be helpful.
There's some articles, of course, the State of the Great Commission report, I think is a wealth of information, uh, and statistics that would help drive what you want to do and want to see in the world.
Uh, but there, there's, there's a great tool that, uh, that are also use.
(39:09):
And this is more around, around the community forming a mentoring basis.
And it's called Advanced Groups.
Uh, and it's basically a three year free mentoring guide that focuses on evangelism and helps to mentor people in that particular field.
And so you'd find that on advanced groups.org,
I think.
And then of course, the App Life in Six Words.
(39:31):
Is a great way, um, to really, uh, if you don't have a way of sharing the gospel to share the gospel in an easy, natural way with tools and resources right here on your smartphone.
Yeah.
I'll be sure to put that in the show notes.
For anyone that's listening in.
Uh, how can people connect with you? Des maybe they're listening and saying, I gotta, I gotta talk to Desmond Henry.
(39:53):
How can I connect with you? Great question.
I think firstly visit our website, palau.org.
My, my email address would be listed there.
Feel free to reach out to me there.
But I'm also on socials on Instagram, Desmond Henry, Facebook, Desmond Henry I think as well.
So reach out to me.
I'm not a fan of Facebook Messenger, but if you send me a DM or Messenger, I'll respond at some points.
(40:17):
Wonderful.
Any last thoughts as we wrap up this interview that you wanna share with everyone? Yeah, absolutely.
You know, evangelism is not the dead end of the great commission.
Highway evangelism and discipleship are key, fundamental, essential elements of our faith.
We can't have one without the other, and I think that God is calling us in increasing ways to be evangelistic, not only in our programs and in our thinking, but to build evangelistic.
(40:46):
Cultures that thrive at the local church level and beyond that, so that we can see, um, God do something amazing and unique in our neighborhoods and then again in the nations as well.
That's beautiful.
Des I I, I would love to invite you just to pray for those who are listening in and, and pray that God will stir our hearts towards that reality.
(41:12):
Yeah.
Can you close our I'd love that.
Thank you.
Let's pray.
Father, I wanna thank you for this time and for this conversation.
Thank you for Jason.
Thank you for the broader movement and uh, for our commitment to the proclamation and demonstration of the gospel.
Father, in the cultural moment that we find ourselves in, we are aware of the, the challenges and the chaos and the polarization.
(41:35):
Uh, but Father, I pray that we as leaders would be deeply committed to the proclamation and demonstration of the good news of Jesus Christ, God, that we would in no way shy away, but that you would fill us with your Holy Spirit and with boldness that could only come from you.
We know father that.
This world is dark and, and, and, and, and even the smallest lights, uh, illuminates the darkest places.
(42:02):
And so I pray for leaders from all over the world who may be listening to this podcast.
Father, they might think and feel like their little effort may not count in the greatest scheme of things, Lord, but may they be mindful father of what you can do, uh, through their commitments to your mission purposes.
God, I wanna pray that you would.
(42:22):
Truly revive our churches in our evangelism, revive our churches in our strategy around that God.
And that you would make it not just about the mind or about a method, but that you'd change our hearts and that it would move from a program or a department of the church to form part of a culture and DNA of the body of Christ.
(42:47):
And so, father, I wanna pray that you would raise up.
Effective, engaging evangelists who would partner with the local churches in their communities to truly see gospel transformation in our generation.
We pray this in Jesus' name.
Amen.
Amen. 465 00:43:08,94.8563145 --> 00:43:12,184.8563145 Well, I hope that you enjoyed this episode of the Lausanne Movement Podcast. 466 00:43:12,464.8563145 --> 00:43:18,394.8563145 If you did enjoy the show, I want to encourage you to leave us a rating and review and share it with a friend. 467 00:43:18,883.4788503 --> 00:43:19,683.4788503 Till next week. 468 00:43:20,53.4788503 --> 00:43:20,503.4788503 Cheers.
We are so, we're so easily or dis distracted by calling people to our brand of Christianity rather than calling them to a relationship with Jesus Christ.
In fact, Barna found in a recent study, 47% of millennial Christians think that evangelism is wrong, but at the same time, 65% of them say that it is essential to their faith.
(00:23):
We have to think of ourselves not only within the confines of the church and bringing people to church, but, but taking church or taking Christ rather to people.
A very warm welcome to the Lausanne Movement podcast.
For those who have a passion to accelerate global mission together, my name is Jason Watson, and today we have a great conversation lined up for you with Desmond Henry, the Lasagne Catalyst Proclamation, evangelism, and International Director of the Global Network of Evangelists for Palau.
(00:58):
During our time together, Des shares fresh insights on why a evangelism remains central to God's mission.
Why it often stirs tension in the global church today and offers practical wisdom for ministry leaders who wanna rekindle the culture of proclamation in their communities.
And so if you're eager to be challenged in your understanding of evangelism and want to hear how God is moving across the world today, I want to invite you to grab your headphones and let's dive into today's interview with Dr.
(01:29):
Desmond Henry.
Well, Desmond Henry, welcome to the podcast.
It's great to have you here.
Awesome to be here.
Jason.
Thank you.
Yeah, I'll say to you all fair.
I, I appreciate the moments where I can have the interviews in person, um, and especially in my home country, South Africa.
So thank you for joining.
(01:49):
I.
Absolutely.
Yeah, this is amazing.
In person is far better than online, right? The only thing is the filter doesn't help, you know, kind of how I look in person as much.
Well, I think you look great, but, oh, we'll leave that to the audience.
There we go.
We'll be doing a vote later on, you know, taking a, you know, assessment.
Yeah.
Okay.
Sounds good.
So there's, uh, I know you very well, but I would love for you to have a moment just to share with our audience a little bit about who you are, and particularly our conversation today is around evangelism, where your passion for evangelism and God's kingdom came from.
(02:21):
I.
Right.
Well, I mean, most people who know me know that I work for Palau, which is an evangelism ministry, and it's a joy to serve there.
Uh, but I see myself really as three things.
And because I'm a a Baptist, they're iterate too.
Right? So I, I'm an encourager, an equipper, and an evangelist.
And the work that I do kind of gets summarized in those three things, really, you know, an encourage of other leaders.
(02:44):
I think there's enough discouragement in, in ministry these days, and so I love to just come alongside others, encourage them and, uh, just be a blessing to them.
But they also equip leaders and equip students, uh, with the tools they need.
For ministry in our cultural moment, it'll help them to fulfill the mission of God.
And then thirdly, an evangelist.
(03:05):
Now, probably 20 years ago, I would never have referred myself as an evangelist.
And, and to be honest, it's taken me some time to think of myself in those ways.
Uh, but here we are and, uh, I see myself as an evangelist.
And so those are three things that kind of define, you know, who I am as such.
Yeah, I mean, I appreciate the honesty that it is, 'cause we've known each other for a while.
(03:26):
Uh, you served in the church that, uh, I'm still a part of.
And, um, I wouldn't have described you as an evangelist back then.
You were a pastor.
Right? And, and so could you share with us how you came to form a love for evangelism? You always had a love for mission, right? Um, I remember that from the start, but evangelism is a bit, you know, it's, it's part of that.
And so I'd love to hear where that particular passion came from.
(03:48):
Well, I mean, I think looking at, at how Christ kind of saved me is, is really where it all began.
And so for me, firstly, uh, my journey with Christianity started at the invitation of a bus driver who invited me to come to church.
I.
And his invitation led to the complete transformation of my life.
And so that was the one thing that retrospectively looking back as a, you know, older geriatric, geriatric Gen Z leader, okay, millennial, as a millennial looking kind of back, that, that really had an effect on me as well.
(04:21):
But, but more than that, you know, my first Sunday school teacher, grace, uh, led me to the Lord and she proclaimed the gospel to me in very simple terms, which then thirdly led her to ask.
Would you like to be a follower of Jesus? And that led to a deep transformation in my own personal life.
And those three things, you know, invitation, proclamation, and transformation, uh, were something that was so real to me and I've seen replicated in so many other different ways, uh, that, that kind of, that has impacted me in my current ministry.
(04:57):
Um, and why I think of myself as an evangelist really.
Yeah.
So I, I would love for us to take this conversation into the, into the realm of evangelism.
And one of the things I picked up, the more I engage in global mission space is, is the division that word causes, right? Um, but before we get there and we dive into that pool too quickly, you know, you mentioned that you're part of, uh, the Louis Palau Association and, uh, you've had the privilege and opportunity to, to travel.
(05:28):
World and engage with evangelists and people passionate about proclaiming the gospel, um, and eng engaging in global mission.
And I would love just to hear your perspective on the, on, on what's happening globally when it comes to evangelism.
Is there disengagement? Is there like a growing engagement? Is there something between or something completely different? Uh, could you just give us a pulse on global evangelism? Wow.
(05:53):
And all that.
Within three minutes.
Come on.
Well, I mean, I, I think there's so many different perspectives.
I just came back from a trip to Japan where we're talking about encouraging evangelists within that context, and the, the kind of term evangelist was something that.
That came up.
And I think the very meaning of the word or term evangelist in their culture spoke volumes to how they value or, you know, maybe don't value that term.
(06:18):
And the actual word evangelist when you refer to someone within the local church, uh, kind of has the implication that it's someone who is, you know, not yet a pastor or is an assistant pastor, or maybe one day will become a pastor, but kind of.
They're an evangelist right now.
Wow.
And so it's not a separate thing.
It's kind of seen as a less than kind of a thing.
(06:39):
And so evangelism, I think globally speaking depends on where you're at will, will really impact, um, how you perceive the world.
And I think definitely we're at a crossroads when it comes to evangelism in many different ways.
Uh, in the West, I think we are seeing a decline and, uh, and many different people write about this.
I've been surprised even with our, you know, Canadian, uh, leadership, uh, commentator, uh, Kerry Nho on his podcast, uh, recently where he's speaking about evangelism and, and how evangelism has seen a massive decline in the West.
(07:13):
And I think partly that's due to secularization defense of the gospel itself.
But, but more than that, I think, uh, you know, we, we look at different places in Africa and we might say, you know, evangelism is alive and well, but the, the problem with evangelism in some of the African spaces and majority world spaces is simply, you know.
(07:34):
I think we, we are so, we are so easily or dis distracted by calling people to our brand of Christianity.
You know, encouraging them to connect with our bishop or apostle or prophet, rather than calling them to a relationship with Jesus Christ.
And so our evangelism is centered on ecclesiology, not on soteriology.
(07:57):
So it's not really the gospel.
It is, come to my version of the church and you will.
Be saved, blessed, et cetera.
And I think that's not the gospel.
And so when we speak about evangelism in today's world, it is a, a highly, uh, it can be a highly explosive term that cause different reactions, but let's be mindful of the fact that it is a biblical term, a profoundly biblical term.
(08:26):
More so even in the term mission.
Yeah.
Uh, and I'm a mythologist, right? And so for me to say that that's pretty, but I mean, the truth is mission is not a necessarily a, a, a Greek or Hebrew word.
Right? It has been conceptualized in, in a different kind of way.
And so looking at the word evangelism in the corpus of the New Testament, we, we cannot escape its central importance to our lives, um, as, as Christians.
(08:50):
And I think that's something we need to come back to.
Yeah.
So, uh, on that, can you define for us when we're talking about evangelism, what is the biblical meaning of evangelism? Yeah.
Because I have been reflecting on this, this fact that mission is isn't necessarily a biblical word, which I'm okay with because Trinity is not violent on the scriptures either, right? So, so it's a word that we, we attribute meaning to.
(09:12):
Mm-hmm.
Uh, that.
Differences that you can attribute any meaning to a word.
And I think that's partly the tension I experience when it comes to talking to people about evangelism because.
The moment you say, oh, I am an evangelist, or let's do evangelism.
It, it prompts different pictures in every single one of our minds.
And I think the example that you used of Japan is a helpful one.
(09:35):
I've never heard of that.
Kind of like stepping stone progression.
So, so what does the scriptures actually say about evangelism? Yeah.
Again, evangelism very simply is the, the, the verbal declaration of the gospel, which is the good news, uh, and, and what that means for us as individuals.
And so evangelism is quite simply proclaiming the good news of Jesus', death, burial, resurrection, uh, and his offer of eternal life.
(10:04):
What, what better can there be for us as believers than that? Good news, right? Yeah.
So, so Des I have a question connected to that definition.
You know, we, we, we have that kind of, this, this reference point that, uh, that the good news is just about eternity.
Mm-hmm.
But, but as I look into the scriptures, the good news is more than just, I gotta get a heaven one day.
(10:26):
And so in that proclamation of the good news.
Is there something more to it than just give your life to Jesus so you don't go to hell? Or is there, is there something more integrated in terms of the proc, what you're proclaiming? Yeah.
Yeah.
Great question.
I think that's, that's often the problem when it comes to evangelism.
We think, oh, it's just about getting into, you know, getting your ticket to heaven.
(10:48):
Securing your eternal life.
And I think that's, that's fallacious.
It's not just about that because we know, looking at history, the Protestant church movement, um, in, in the last hundred years, that we have a phenomena described as redemption and lift.
Paul in second Corinthians.
Five describes it as part of being a new creation.
The old has gone, the new has come, and he's given to us this ministry of reconciliation.
(11:12):
We are therefore Christ's ambassadors as though he was making his appeal through us.
And, and so the whole redemptive part of what it means to come to faith in Jesus not only affects our lives for eternity, but it changes.
Our reality in the present.
And so redemption being saved, uh, for all eternity, God changing our life and our heart changes our personal circumstances.
(11:36):
I've seen that in my own life, and I've witnessed this in the life of lives of people that, that often I wonder.
Is there hope for them? 'cause there's, it feels like they're too far gone sometimes.
Like, wow, if God could take this life that was given over to drug abuse and alcoholism and, and all kinds of different sin and, and completely turn that around in a way that, that physically and, and emotionally.
(12:03):
And in every other way kind of shows the transformative power of the gospel.
It gives me hope that, of course, our mission is beyond just eternal salvation.
And it includes, of course, uh, what we see in, in the broader mission of God.
Yeah.
So you, I would like to talk about the, the fact that the word evangelism seems to be polarizing mm-hmm.
(12:27):
In global mission particularly.
Right.
Um, you know, when I was just in the local min local church ministry, evangelism wasn't polarizing.
It was just a tension of like, we got to, we got to share the good news and how are we gonna do that? And, and just coming out of the fourth zone Congress, it was fascinating to me.
On the one side, you had people saying there was so much talk about evangelism at the Congress too much.
(12:52):
And then on the other side, we are hearing there was no talk about evangelism at the Congress and it was all about integral mission.
And, and everyone has their, you know, their passion and, and I think that is part of what it means to be a part of the global body.
Yeah.
Uh, but why do you believe evangelism has become so polarizing? Within Global Mission? Well, I mean, I, I think, you know, evangelism in many ways, con, confronts a number of our cultural idols that we have.
(13:21):
It's also been misunderstood and misapplied.
And so there are probably good reasons why people would look at evangelists or evangelism and, and kind of push back a little and say, hold on, is this relevant? Is this good for us in our day? And of course, we live in an age of suspicion, um, as well, where people are just naturally suspicious.
(13:42):
Uh, and, and, and many Christians, in fact, Barna found in a recent study, 47% of millennial Christians think that evangelism is wrong, right? So they're highly suspicious of this, but at the same time, 65% of them say that it is essential to their faith.
And so the question is like, what is that line that we then cross that takes it from being essential to my faith, to, to being.
(14:06):
This is not a good thing for me or for, for my life.
Stereotypes, uh, you know, evangelism has got those stereotypes too, where people think of a quintessential evangelist, you know, with some kind of, you know, microphone yelling at people walking down the street, or aggressive sales tactics.
You know, get your ticket to heaven, you know, say this prayer, raise your hand.
(14:27):
Um, and, and that's, that's not what evangelism is necessarily all about.
Um, and, and I think sometimes even a sense of.
Fear and shame.
You know, what happens if I do proclaim the gospel? What happens if I do reach out or step out in this way and, and I feel un reject or people don't kind of accept this, this invitation, uh, there's a sense of fear that people naturally have.
(14:51):
Uh, as well, but I think primarily in our day and age, secularization very often has pushed faith to the margins and has made kind of evangelism seem unnecessary in our day and age.
Why evangelize when you can just good, do good things when you could just help the pearl or, or feed the sick? And the truth is, if everything is mission.
(15:15):
Nothing is mission.
And so I think we have to go back to the quintessential mission, uh, and that quintessential, quintessential mission, uh, is, you know, what, what others refer to.
And I guess is also trigger term too integral prioritization, right? Where I think we need both.
But the one of course, evangelism, as I understand it in the scriptures, is that leading edge or the spear tip, and then everything else kind of follows after that.
(15:45):
So can you unpack that for us when you're talking about, um, the spear tip? Yeah.
Well, I mean, I think so if, if you look at the whole history of, of lo and the different, um, sort of conferences and documents and movements and, and some of the different streams within lo you mentioned two of them primarily.
You know, those who have a holistic.
View of mission and those who prioritize evangelism.
(16:08):
And it seems like never the two shall meet.
Uh, but if we, if we look at some of the history of the Anne movement, uh, we, we have to learn from some of the challenges of the past.
And I think we got into the space where everything was mission.
Uh, and if everything is mission, the truth is nothing is mission because.
Everything we do doesn't necessarily align with the, the, the importance of that within the word of God, and, and evangelism is part of the heartbeat of God.
(16:36):
It's expressed throughout the Bible that God desires every person.
To encounter his son Jesus Christ, in a very real way that changes their eternity, but changes their life in the care and now as well.
And so that is of primary importance to God.
And so that should be our primary importance as well.
(16:57):
But of course there are other things that.
Are of, I wouldn't say equal importance, but are of great importance to us as believers.
And, and that is what leads kind of, or follows rather, uh, an evangelistic thrust or evangelistic heart.
And so it's important for us to share the gospel with people, uh, to be truthful about what we believe as.
(17:19):
Believers and not hide our beliefs in any way or, or couch it beyond, uh, or behind good intentions, but to, to lead with that.
And the truth is the gospel will always be confrontational.
It confronts our sin.
It confronts who we are and our need of Christ about the gospel is a gospel of grace and a gospel of forgiveness.
(17:42):
Uh, and that is something that the world desperately needs almost beyond anything else that we can provide as believers.
So there's, you are particularly in the proclamation space right now, right? And, uh, perhaps you can share a little bit about what you do with lau.
Um, very much proclaiming the gospel.
(18:03):
Yeah, I'd be curious to hear from you.
I mean, I would imagine that.
People have come to you and said, I had critiques right? And I'm pretty sure that some might be exaggerated and some might be true and relevant.
So could you take an honest moment with us and say.
(18:24):
You've been in this space, what are the genuinely concerning things when it comes to proclamation evangelism particularly? Hmm.
I remember I'm a mythologist, uh, and an evangelist, so I kind of wear two hats, uh, uh, in that sense as well.
But I think there are valid concerns for people.
I think anyone who has a platform ministry, um, we have to make sure that our personal lives.
(18:49):
Really reflect and align with what we do on the platform.
And I think that's been one of the greatest criticisms of evangelists and certainly in the last couple of decades, is, you know, are they living in that, in what they preach basically when they're not on the platform.
And so that's something to be aware of as well.
Another thing is, you know, sometimes evangelists.
(19:10):
Can appear to be transactional in a sense.
You know, it's so, it's, you know, they, they're kind of preaching for a result.
They want people to make a decision for Jesus Christ.
And, and, and I think sometimes, uh, some, some evangelists can be more about the numbers than there are about the lives and people that are transformed, uh, in that sense too, uh, to secular audiences, I think it could be perceived as.
(19:34):
Coercive or manipulative, um, you know, are they trying to manipulate people into making a decision in this particular moment? Um, but the bigger problem is the, the claim of exclusivity of Jesus Christ.
Uh, and for many in a pluralistic secular worldview, that is the one thing that they would completely object to that Christ is.
(19:55):
Exclusive and, and in fact, that is the unique message of Christianity.
And that's, uh, interestingly why we find ourself in the cultural challenges that we find ourselves in today.
Uh, and so I think in the midst of all of this, the gospel is to be proclaimed with bold humility.
What do I mean by that? Uh, I think in our cultural age, we need to be humble.
(20:18):
Uh, we need to be incarnational.
We need to, uh, embody Christ.
In the world within which we live.
But there also needs to be a sense of boldness where we, we boldly proclaim the good news of Jesus coming his death and resurrection and what a life surrender to Jesus, uh, can become ultimately in the hands of God.
(20:39):
And so I think that is something that is so important for us to, to.
Keep central in our lives, uh, in all this kind of stuff.
And so evangelists are not everyone's cup of tea.
They're very passionate people, but there is not one single methodology of evangelism.
And that is the one thing that I would say to people who would critique proclamation evangelism.
(21:01):
At Palau, we celebrate.
Every kind of evangelism that shares the gospel message of people.
Because I think so often in Christianity, we, or in Christendom, if you like, we, we are so critical of each other and critical of methodologies and critical of, of all kinds of, of ways that we're trying to reach the lost, so to say.
(21:23):
Uh.
Very often, those who are critical don't have a strategy to engage the lost.
And so it doesn't surprise me that most churches today are not growing, that most denominations are stagnant or in decline because most denominations don't have a strategy or plan for evangelism.
Most local churches don't have a plan for evangelism.
And so how we see evangelism in the light of God's creativity and how we are wired, I think will speak volumes to how God could use us for his kingdom's sake.
(21:53):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, as you were mentioning, I think as I reflect on my own local church experience, very much influenced by the seeker model, right? Right.
And so the, the model was create a good church, give it the lights, give it the cameras, the action, and, uh, use the stage as the tool to, to reach people.
(22:16):
Right.
That, I mean, at least that's the church model I grew up in.
Yeah.
And, and that.
Doesn't seem to be working as well as it used to.
Right.
Do you have anything to say about that? I, I, I mean, yes.
Yes.
I have so much to say about that, but I think, uh, I mean, as a millennial, that's something that we embraced very much and kind of, you know, the, the growth of Christian worship music, the way we understand it today, kind of came in my era of becoming a young adult and, and it's, it's been fascinating.
(22:44):
Seeing how things have changed and, and, and even how, you know, church expressions, uh, whether you're Baptist or Methodist or, you know, Pentecostal Presbyterian, uh, matters less today because it sort of looks very similar in practice, uh, as I've been fascinated by that.
But I think.
You know, looking at the, the Old Testament and New Testament, we see that there is a both and model where there is an attractional, but also a missional elements.
(23:10):
And I think very often we, we prefer the attractional method, uh, because it kind of feels like we're putting, you know, we're, we're being creative.
We we're trying our very best, you know, we're trying to reach.
The people in that sense, and of, of course, they're gonna come to us, right? Because, you know, we have the lights and, and the problem is we, we kind of make culture the, the goal that we are pursuing cultural relevance.
(23:37):
Sure.
Uh, rather than biblical standards.
And the truth is we've gotta then compete with whatever culture throws at us.
And so what is the end game? Right? It's never gonna be.
Ending at all is gonna keep competing with culture.
Keep trying to be relevant.
Uh, and and that's an endless game that would just never, never, ever end.
Which is why I think we have to be missional.
(23:58):
I.
We have to think of ourselves not only within the confines of the church and bringing people to church, but, but taking church or taking Christ rather to people.
And so rather than bringing the unsafe to church to hear the pastor or leader or, or whatever, you know, preach the gospel and them accepting Jesus, why aren't we doing that in our own personal lives? I think one of the greatest.
(24:23):
Blessings of our era is simply the multiplication of ministry through the people of God in the workplace, um, on the streets, in, in communities, and in in, in neighborhoods.
And I think that presents us with a fundamental shift in how we do and see ministry.
Attractional, I think, has its place.
It's not gonna go anywhere anytime soon.
(24:45):
But I think there is a definite shift where people see through some of the.
The sort of darker sides of the shadow side, if you like, of the attractional model and are hungry for something more, something real, something missional.
And so it's a both and kind of approach and in both ways.
You can share the gospel in both ways.
(25:05):
You can evangelize, uh, but of course I think it's a both and not all.
Yeah.
Uh, I really appreciate you just shedding lights on that and, and mentioning some of the trends that have affected the church.
There are some trends that are happening right now that, that also are affecting the church.
Uh, I was speaking to a leader yesterday who, um, very much is affected by that seeker model, um, involved in the Global Leadership Summit, all those kind of streams.
(25:33):
And, and he was saying to me, you know, I, I at risk feels as if the church is heading into a spiritual formation, more discipleship focus kind of direction.
And, and I'd be curious to hear from you.
Uh.
In terms of, of receiving critiques, you know, that's one thing to be on the defense.
Yeah.
It's another to, to be a proponent for a key aspect of what God is calling us to.
(25:58):
He's calling us into, to evangelize.
He's gifted the church with evangelists.
Yeah.
And, and what, what do, like, so as you, as you reflect forward.
What concerns you about the state of evangelism and, and maybe some of the new trends that are happening within the global church? Yeah, I mean, I think, I think we, we really need to talk about these things because I think it helps us to develop a framework within which to live our lives as God's people in this moment.
(26:29):
'cause there is so much that is happening out in this world for sure.
I think on the discipleship front, one of the dangers that we've seen, so evidently is how we tend to programatize uh, our discipleship.
And I don't think Jesus had a program to disciple people with.
It wasn't content driven.
It was missional.
It was life on life.
(26:49):
And I think we need to come around to a lot of that as well.
And of course, evangelism is key to discipleship, just like.
Discipleship is key to evangelism.
It's two sides of the same coin.
And in fact, if you're discipling someone and they have not evangelized, you have not done your job in discipling them, it is so critical that you take what you've been given and that you actually go and share the good news with other people.
(27:14):
It's part of your journey, and that's what Jesus did, even with his disciples as well.
Um, and so when it comes to evangelism, I think there's a, there's a real trend out there in fact.
I was speaking to some of our young leaders in the UK who recently did a, a gathering of Gen Z leaders and there was a lot of excitements.
And in fact, there's been articles written by a number of different Christian outlets about revival broke loose, um, in this UK event.
(27:38):
And I think, um.
That's something that we need to be cautious about, kind of saying, and I, the words I used to encourage this young leader was that we need to be very cautious about our desire for revival or too readily kind of claiming there's been a revival in the particular place or time.
(28:00):
Um, because I think in our day and age, we have the propensity to think we could manufacture revival on the one hand.
And on the other hand, we have this insatiable.
Desire that almost becomes idolatrous that we are seeking revival.
Now you might wonder, well, what is the problem with that? You know, don't we want to see revival? Don't we wanna see God, you know, come and disrupt the, the spiritual apathy and the indifference of our day and age? And, and, but here's the thing.
(28:32):
I think we've got it wrong in terms of our definition of revival.
We've got it wrong in terms of what revival.
Is biblically and historically, and again, revival isn't just a emotional hide, isn't just a, a great feeling that we get that, you know, when we worship in God.
Uh, if we look at the scriptures and we study that, we see that Rev Revival wasn't an event.
(28:58):
It was a movement.
So it's an event that sparked a movement, and I think that is true.
In Acts chapter two, the event of Pentecost sparked a movement of God's people.
In Acts chapter four, prayer meetings shook the house that they gathered in.
It took, it, took them to the streets where they evangelized and reach people.
And in fact, in, in X chapter four, we see the whole.
(29:21):
Town was shaken by the good news of the gospel.
That is revival.
And I think we have to be so cautious of our pursuit of revival that we really miss, um, the relationship with Jesus part of it really.
Um, and so the fruits of revival is, again, holiness and joy and righteousness and evangelism.
(29:44):
Uh, and I think that's so crucial and key.
In fact, we, the, the Great Commission of the Book of Acts, acts chapter one.
You know, you'll be filled with the Holy Spirit and then you'll be my witnesses.
One of the very first signs of the infilling of the Holy Spirit is being a witness to King Jesus.
Yeah.
And as you were speaking, I was just reminded of a book that a a w Tozer wrote on the Holy Spirit.
(30:09):
And one of the chapters is, is entitled, um, how to Be Filled With the Spirit.
And the first question he asks is, do you really want to be filled with the Holy Spirit? Because if you really want the Holy Spirits.
There's consequences to that, like positive ones right? For you.
But it is a cost.
Um, one of them is obedience, the other is proclamation.
(30:29):
And so as, as you mentioned, and so I think you, you know, I, I for 1:00 AM hungry to see renewal and revival.
Absolutely.
And we praying that upon our church and we praying it upon the globe.
And, and, uh, but the real question for our church should actually be, do you really want this? Are you just in pursuit of an experience or are you in pursuit of a relationship, which leads to real world implications? Uh, yeah.
(30:56):
So, so how can we, how can we begin to turn the tide when we talking about evangelism? How can we begin to, to, to kind of just bring a shift in focus to this idea that we are called to share the gospel with others.
Great question.
I think firstly, we need to change our theology framework.
Uh, very often we tend to neglect a missional theology, uh, seeing our ministry, seeing our life, seeing what we do through God's mission.
(31:25):
And I think I.
Us understanding that God is the first evangelist, he's the proto evangelist, if you like.
Right? And in fact in the Psalms he says, you know, the heavens declare the glory of God.
The scars proclaim his righteousness.
Day after day they pour forth speech.
There's this amazing natural revelation where, where God is speaking.
And I think we need to come back to that and understand if, if God is that proto.
(31:50):
Evangelist if, if God is for once of a better term, you know, um, or Jesus is God's first missionary sent to this world on a mission of redemption, what does that mean for us as God's people and for the church? And I think that that really makes a difference in our mindset and approach to ministry.
We really think through what it means to have a missional ecclesiology that shapes what we do in evangelism.
(32:15):
Uh, I think the other thing is, you know, evangelism has to be a lifestyle, not a program.
You know, there's not a checklist you gotta do.
Uh, you have to be committed to evangelism.
And it's a challenge.
I'm, I'm a part of a group we're called Christians Love these acronyms.
Gar, GAR, global Advancing, no Gospel Advancing Revolutionaries.
(32:36):
Right.
Uh, a good friend of mine, Greg Steer is, is leading that, that group up.
And, and I love, every month when we meet, we've been challenged like.
How are you doing in, in personally sharing the gospel with your friends, uh, and not friends and loved ones? You know, the, the loss that you encounter.
And I find that personally so refreshing to have someone even ask me that question, uh, because I think we've lost that as, as leaders, we become so consumed and busy by so many other.
(33:03):
Sometimes important things, but not ultimate things that we as leaders would look back on a year or maybe two or three years and we have not taken the time to share the gospel with someone who might be in desperate need for that of that.
And so it's a lifestyle.
It's something that's gotta be modeled by us as individuals.
Uh, but I think.
You know, we have to be wise about it.
(33:24):
Uh, many, many who'd be listening to this podcast maybe asking, what do I do as a church leader? Uh, I think if, if it's not in your diary, it's not gonna happen, right? And, uh, so we have to think through, look at the whole structure of a year and say, what can we use? As natural points of Evangelism in our year, Eastern Christmas, those are natural points.
But what other Mother's Day, father's Day, what other public holidays do you have that you could embrace where people would maybe more naturally, uh, come, here's the attractional model, come to church or be invited to a church event.
(33:58):
And then here's the thing to ask.
Once a year, what can we do as a church to proclaim and demonstrate both and right the go, the Gus Gospel gospel, get that right.
Eventually proclaim and demonstrate the gospel in our particular communities.
And I think if we, if we put that in an outreach calendar, I think it would be most helpful for us as we look at the year and plan it in that kind of way.
(34:24):
But then lastly, I think even just.
Sharing testimonies, uh, within a faith community con context can be so helpful.
Uh, what I, what do I mean by that? What kind of testimonies? Well, you know, maybe someone came to faith and they could share, this is how I came to faith.
Or, or maybe even a testimony of, Hey, this week I shared the good news with this person.
(34:45):
And it was awful.
It was a, I really struggled and they, they didn't respond at all.
And, but I'm gonna give it a go and try again, uh, to share in authentic ways and encourage other people to do not only what is important, but to do that, which is.
Ultimate Now I really appreciate you going into the direction of application and, and maybe let's keep going in that space, you know, what words of advice would you give? So you mentioned to the church pastor, uh, what about the ministry leaders that are not church pastors? 'cause there's many of them that are listening to this right now.
(35:21):
What words of advice would you have for them? God has placed you in a context shine for him wherever God, God has placed you.
I mean, sounds like a simple kind of truth, but I think we often look to our, um, our, you know, professionals as such within the church and we, we put place so much on them.
I.
You know, the pastor, the evangelist, you know, these are the professionals.
(35:42):
You handle that part of stuff, where the truth is that if you're filled with the Holy Spirit, uh, God can gift you to reach people that the professionals cannot reach.
The professionals are.
Running the business of the church most times during the week, you as a professional, are in the context, uh, to to where people would kind of look to you, uh, and who would never be in the orbit of a church or a pastor as such.
(36:09):
And so I think you have such an advantage in, in authentically engaging people who would never darken the doorway of a church.
And I think that's key attractional.
You can invite them to church, but missional live out your witness in front of them.
And I think that that is such a helpful thing for us.
And so, I mean, just on the practical side of it, um, there's a really great app I mentioned, um, Greg Steer that I find so helpful.
(36:35):
And it's called, uh, life in Six Words App.
I think it's an amazing app that helps me to do a few things to, to pray.
To, to care, to share and to dare.
And so that's interesting, right? So to pray for the lost.
So pray every day for people who are around me, uh, for even if you don't know their name, the barber, you know, for the, you know, barista, uh, you know, to pray for my friend at the gym, you know? And then to, to care, to ask God for opportunities to show the love of God to them.
(37:10):
Not in a manufacture manipulative way, but in a genuine way.
Befriend people, right? Um, and, and, and then, and then ultimately, you know, kind of share the gospel with people in a natural kind of way.
And here's the thing, the, the gospel is such a beautiful thing.
Why would we not share it with people? It shouldn't be.
(37:32):
Abnormal for us as Christians, it shouldn't be something that we, we cannot insert into conversations.
In fact, if we truly believe that the gospel is of utmost importance, uh, then we would be doing people a disservice if we don't share it with them.
Right.
We'd be condemning them.
So it's the most loving thing we can do is to share the gospel with people.
(37:53):
Uh, and then of course the dare part is, you know, literally just to.
You know, be proactive about reaching people within that prayer care, uh, and their circle of yours.
And so that is an app that helps me.
Some people even write it down on a prayer card.
Uh, pray for people if you, if you're praying for it, if you're mindful of it, it is more likely something that you would action in your own personal life.
(38:18):
Uh, I love the resource.
Are there any other resources that you can recommend to those listening you saying, you know what I, I.
I want to make this a part of my life or part of my ministry.
Yes.
Where can you send them? Well, I mean, firstly, the losan uh, ecosystem has amazing resources.
Uh, we did a global classroom on proclamation evangelism at the end of last year, which I think is a great resource to understanding theologically and practically what evangelism is.
(38:46):
Uh, we're just completing a series on elevating evangelism with.
Different panels of people, which again, would be helpful.
There's some articles, of course, the State of the Great Commission report, I think is a wealth of information, uh, and statistics that would help drive what you want to do and want to see in the world.
Uh, but there, there's, there's a great tool that, uh, that are also use.
(39:09):
And this is more around, around the community forming a mentoring basis.
And it's called Advanced Groups.
Uh, and it's basically a three year free mentoring guide that focuses on evangelism and helps to mentor people in that particular field.
And so you'd find that on advanced groups.org,
I think.
And then of course, the App Life in Six Words.
(39:31):
Is a great way, um, to really, uh, if you don't have a way of sharing the gospel to share the gospel in an easy, natural way with tools and resources right here on your smartphone.
Yeah.
I'll be sure to put that in the show notes.
For anyone that's listening in.
Uh, how can people connect with you? Des maybe they're listening and saying, I gotta, I gotta talk to Desmond Henry.
(39:53):
How can I connect with you? Great question.
I think firstly visit our website, palau.org.
My, my email address would be listed there.
Feel free to reach out to me there.
But I'm also on socials on Instagram, Desmond Henry, Facebook, Desmond Henry I think as well.
So reach out to me.
I'm not a fan of Facebook Messenger, but if you send me a DM or Messenger, I'll respond at some points.
(40:17):
Wonderful.
Any last thoughts as we wrap up this interview that you wanna share with everyone? Yeah, absolutely.
You know, evangelism is not the dead end of the great commission.
Highway evangelism and discipleship are key, fundamental, essential elements of our faith.
We can't have one without the other, and I think that God is calling us in increasing ways to be evangelistic, not only in our programs and in our thinking, but to build evangelistic.
(40:46):
Cultures that thrive at the local church level and beyond that, so that we can see, um, God do something amazing and unique in our neighborhoods and then again in the nations as well.
That's beautiful.
Des I I, I would love to invite you just to pray for those who are listening in and, and pray that God will stir our hearts towards that reality.
(41:12):
Yeah.
Can you close our I'd love that.
Thank you.
Let's pray.
Father, I wanna thank you for this time and for this conversation.
Thank you for Jason.
Thank you for the broader movement and uh, for our commitment to the proclamation and demonstration of the gospel.
Father, in the cultural moment that we find ourselves in, we are aware of the, the challenges and the chaos and the polarization.
(41:35):
Uh, but Father, I pray that we as leaders would be deeply committed to the proclamation and demonstration of the good news of Jesus Christ, God, that we would in no way shy away, but that you would fill us with your Holy Spirit and with boldness that could only come from you.
We know father that.
This world is dark and, and, and, and, and even the smallest lights, uh, illuminates the darkest places.
(42:02):
And so I pray for leaders from all over the world who may be listening to this podcast.
Father, they might think and feel like their little effort may not count in the greatest scheme of things, Lord, but may they be mindful father of what you can do, uh, through their commitments to your mission purposes.
God, I wanna pray that you would.
(42:22):
Truly revive our churches in our evangelism, revive our churches in our strategy around that God.
And that you would make it not just about the mind or about a method, but that you'd change our hearts and that it would move from a program or a department of the church to form part of a culture and DNA of the body of Christ.
(42:47):
And so, father, I wanna pray that you would raise up.
Effective, engaging evangelists who would partner with the local churches in their communities to truly see gospel transformation in our generation.
We pray this in Jesus' name.
Amen.
Amen. 465 00:43:08,94.8563145 --> 00:43:12,184.8563145 Well, I hope that you enjoyed this episode of the Lausanne Movement Podcast. 466 00:43:12,464.8563145 --> 00:43:18,394.8563145 If you did enjoy the show, I want to encourage you to leave us a rating and review and share it with a friend. 467 00:43:18,883.4788503 --> 00:43:19,683.4788503 Till next week. 468 00:43:20,53.4788503 --> 00:43:20,503.4788503 Cheers.
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