Redeeming Local Arts for Kingdom Witness: Héber Negrão on Ethnodoxology and the Mission of God

The gospel was never meant to silence culture, but to redeem it.

Learn how contextual worship and indigenous art are helping every people group declare the glory of God in their own voice.

In this episode, Jason Watson speaks with Heber Negrão—missionary, scholar, and global voice in ethnodoxology—about how the arts can serve the Church’s mission by connecting the gospel to the cultural heart of every people group. Drawing from years of field experience among indigenous communities in Brazil and global training contexts, Heber unpacks how local art forms can be reclaimed to witness to Christ in ways that are deeply meaningful and biblically faithful.

 

📌 Main Points & Takeaways

• What is Ethnodoxology?

A field of mission that empowers believers to worship and proclaim Christ using their own artistic and cultural expressions.

• Worship that Belongs

Imported worship styles often feel disconnected. Heber explains how contextualized worship allows communities to own their praise of God.

• Critical Contextualization

Local arts must be evaluated biblically, and Heber shares a practical framework for what to accept, adapt, or transform.

• Art as Gospel Communication

In oral cultures, art is often the most effective medium for theology, storytelling, and spiritual formation.

• From Decoration to Declaration

The arts aren’t just a supplement to mission—they are a strategy for gospel proclamation and deep discipleship.

 

If this episode inspired you to rethink the role of culture and creativity in mission, share it with a worship leader, missionary, or artist in your community. Subscribe to the Lausanne Movement Podcast and visit the links below to explore how the arts can serve the Church’s global calling.

 

📚 Links & Resources

📄 Articles

• What is Ethnodoxology?
• Ethnodoxology’s Time is Here – Lausanne Global Analysis
• The Arts Are Not a Universal Language – Lausanne Global Analysis
• Visual Affect as Validation of Truth – Lausanne Global Report

📘 Resources

• Ethnodoxology Handbook & Manual
• Evangelical Missions Quarterly: Arts in Missions Issue

 

Guest Bio:

Héber Negrão is a missionary ethnomusicologist serving at the Evangelical Missionary Linguistic Association (Brazil). He is a member of the Global Ethnodoxology Network and the Arts Task Force of the WEA Mission Commission. He has worked with oral Bible translation for six years among indigenous people in northern Brazil.

Héber holds an MA in ethnomusicology and is a  PhD candidate in world arts at Dallas International University. He has been involved in the ethnoarts ministry in Brazil since 2006. His passion is to see every person praising God using their own arts in a culturally appropriate way.

In 2016, Héber participated in Lausanne’s Young Leaders Gathering in Jakarta. After that, he joined the Lausanne Communications Team as a volunteer, and in 2020, he joined Lausanne’s staff as online language coordinator.

Héber is married to Sophia, and they have 2 young kids.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
.963991396we want to see people Worshipping God, preaching, praying, discipling, with local artistic expressions ethnodoxology is the academic field, the study of how Christians in every culture with God and with others using their own arts, with their own artistic expressions. 2 00:00:21,947.778621853 --> 00:00:33,214.624950866 once a Canela leader said to him, you gave us the Word of God our language, but your friend Tom helped us to express ourselves to God. 3 00:00:33,599.624950866 --> 00:00:34,719.624950867 With our own music. 4 00:00:34,872.9582842 --> 00:00:43,403.972417 So that's, that's powerful, A very warm welcome to the luzane Movement Podcast. 5 00:00:43,403.972417 --> 00:00:48,263.972417 For those who have a passion to accelerate global mission together. 6 00:00:48,390.331777228 --> 00:00:59,970.331777228 My name is Jason Watson, and today on the podcast we have a fascinating interview lined up you with Héber Negrão the very new president of the global Ethno Doxology Network. 7 00:01:00,89.692101281 --> 00:01:04,774.692101281 Héber shares his journey of working with indigenous communities around the Amazon. 8 00:01:04,906.395480125 --> 00:01:15,513.941123553 His insights on how local arts shape gospel expression and why arts and worship are not just decorative, but essential in cross-cultural evangelism. 9 00:01:15,766.020515982 --> 00:01:27,657.24949144 So if you are eager to discover how the gospel speaks through art and storytelling and cultures across the world, I wanna invite you, grab your headphones, and let's dive into today's interview. 10 00:01:27,987.24949144 --> 00:01:33,228.595084965 With Héber Negrão Welcome to the podcast. 11 00:01:33,228.595084965 --> 00:01:34,518.595084965 It's so good to have you with us. 12 00:01:34,849.611150196 --> 00:01:35,299.611150196 Thank you. 13 00:01:35,722.315460202 --> 00:01:38,96.609084455 a pleasure to be here first time. 14 00:01:38,316.609084455 --> 00:01:38,866.609084455 It's a good thing. 15 00:01:39,86.602289041 --> 00:01:40,36.60228904 It's so good. 16 00:01:40,36.60228904 --> 00:01:47,526.60228904 And if you are watching with us on YouTube, you'll see that Eber has got drums behind him and different musical instruments. 17 00:01:47,766.60228904 --> 00:01:56,916.60228904 And it's so great because today we're going to be talking about ethno doxology and ethno arts and how we use the arts to reach people with the gospel. 18 00:01:56,916.60228904 --> 00:02:17,971.60228904 And so I'm not going to steal the thunder because to share all about that, but before we dive too deep and too quick in, can you kick us off just by introducing yourself to the audience and sharing how you discovered a calling, a final calling to this very unique space of ethno doxology and ethno arts and ministry. 19 00:02:18,744.60228904 --> 00:02:19,614.60228904 Yeah, of course. 20 00:02:20,515.27123452 --> 00:02:21,195.27123452 Ethnodoxology. 21 00:02:21,205.27123452 --> 00:02:23,25.27123452 What a, what a great word. 22 00:02:24,307.44032729 --> 00:02:32,773.83604642 I started, um, in this, role of arts and ethnodoxology, uh, ethnomusicology, reading. 23 00:02:33,218.83604642 --> 00:02:44,884.18246029 a prayer guide for world's mission, And, in that prayer guide, there was a particular moment that we could pray for the ethnomusicologists of Wycliffe. 24 00:02:45,412.69405521 --> 00:03:03,287.69505521 And the text describing The activitieses of those ethnomusicologists They were researching, local music from different cultures, composing, creating songs for people to sing to God in their cultural context, with their songs, with their musical style. 25 00:03:04,197.69505521 --> 00:03:07,917.69505521 I was like, wow, that's, that's what I want to do for life. 26 00:03:08,105.70951511 --> 00:03:14,613.58280958 So that's how I started, and this, another thing that happened also was. 27 00:03:15,28.58280958 --> 00:03:34,556.51122124 Like good opportunity for, be mentored for people by people, uh, leaders in this, field, people like, uh, Tom Avery, Robin Harris, Brian Schrag, were key people that helped me to understand where I was stepping into. 28 00:03:34,896.61122124 --> 00:03:41,316.61122124 And help me like open doors and be in, participate in conferences and organizations. 29 00:03:41,553.27788791 --> 00:03:52,233.976193 So things like that, were like a good moment for me to a God moment actually, where God directed me to start, uh, on this ministry. 30 00:03:52,683.976193 --> 00:03:53,193.976193 Wonderful. 31 00:03:53,363.976193 --> 00:04:00,643.976193 And one thing that you left out is that you spent a number of years working among indigenous communities in Brazil. 32 00:04:00,643.976193 --> 00:04:06,566.16290316 And so in many regards, you know, a lot, you're not actually just an academic or pursuing academic interests. 33 00:04:06,566.16290316 --> 00:04:09,102.66290316 You're also a practitioner, you're an academic practitioner. 34 00:04:09,779.16290316 --> 00:04:10,149.16290316 Yeah. 35 00:04:10,506.16290316 --> 00:04:19,266.16290316 so I think that's, that's why I'm so, I'm so looking forward to diving deep with you in this, because you both have the experience and the knowledge to, to share with us. 36 00:04:19,626.16290316 --> 00:04:21,586.16190316 So, so could you share more about. 37 00:04:22,146.16290316 --> 00:04:32,452.15603124 the time that you spent in the field, about the people groups that you worked with, about what your ministry involved on a daily basis, and maybe how you saw God moving within those communities. 38 00:04:33,145.15603124 --> 00:04:35,905.15703124 Uh, let me mention the, the academic part first. 39 00:04:36,348.73663553 --> 00:04:49,846.24393518 when I was taking my master's degree in ethnomusicology, I discovered this, this group of people, using arts of local arts to reach, all their cultures and peoples to, to, to God. 40 00:04:50,137.91465503 --> 00:04:57,199.57826852 and that also opened doors for me to, uh, years later, take my PhD, which, which I'm doing now. 41 00:04:57,479.57826852 --> 00:05:01,289.57826852 I'm taking a PhD in world arts at Dallas international university. 42 00:05:01,469.57826852 --> 00:05:05,679.57826852 And, the idea is to current, to serve as arts consultant. 43 00:05:06,664.57826852 --> 00:05:07,184.57826852 Brazil. 44 00:05:07,537.91160185 --> 00:05:08,877.91160185 when I finished the program. 45 00:05:09,441.24493518 --> 00:05:15,377.91160185 So, that, that ministry with ethanol arts started back in 2006. 46 00:05:15,847.91160185 --> 00:05:19,347.91160185 That when I discovered I was doing my, my master's degree back then. 47 00:05:19,737.91060185 --> 00:05:20,877.91160185 And I discovered. 48 00:05:22,12.91160185 --> 00:05:29,262.91160185 How we can use music and arts of the people for help them to worship God with their own style. 49 00:05:29,597.12959074 --> 00:05:35,677.12959074 years later, in 2013, I joined a Wycliffe organization in Brazil called Alain. 50 00:05:36,343.7972574 --> 00:05:43,769.9539589 And that's when my field practitioner experience started as, field workers, a missionary. 51 00:05:44,899.9539589 --> 00:05:52,269.9539589 So my wife and I, we worked for six years, uh, with an indigenous people group in Northern Brazil, in the Amazon region. 52 00:05:52,706.62062557 --> 00:05:55,856.62062557 And we worked with oral Bible translation. 53 00:05:56,286.62062557 --> 00:05:58,556.62062557 We worked on the book of Genesis. 54 00:05:59,198.64058378 --> 00:06:11,902.38125045 we've seen a lot of good things happening that ministry, like people, uh, learning about the gospel by listening to, to the stories that are translated in the book of Genesis. 55 00:06:12,85.71558378 --> 00:06:15,755.71558378 that particular people group there have the New Testament translated and published. 56 00:06:15,854.04891711 --> 00:06:21,48.00773822 and that help also help them to engage with, the New Testament as well and their language. 57 00:06:21,778.33695637 --> 00:06:23,658.00773822 so yeah, so that's my background. 58 00:06:24,98.00773822 --> 00:06:33,962.39482582 I've been working with ethanol arts since 2006, almost 19 years now, and also worked with Bible translation for six years, in Northern Brazil. 59 00:06:34,437.56149249 --> 00:06:34,967.56149249 Wonderful. 60 00:06:34,967.56149249 --> 00:06:50,687.56049249 You know, uh, one of the questions I had as I was preparing for this was, you know, you, you have a unique perspective in the sense of that you're not, you're not just an academic, you're not just a practitioner, but you've also been in this crazy field of global ministry. 61 00:06:51,97.56149249 --> 00:06:55,797.56149249 Uh, you mentioned your work with Wycliffe and I know that you have been connected with other multiple people. 62 00:06:59,492.56149249 --> 00:07:19,174.21536931 And I was curious, you know, how has your experience with indigenous peoples shaped the way that you think about missions globally? And then on the flip side, how has your global missions experience now formed the way that you've thought about engaging indigenous communities with the gospel? I've been, I've been around like globally, as you mentioned. 63 00:07:19,174.21536931 --> 00:07:22,469.21536931 So It's been a privilege to work with Lausanne. 64 00:07:22,883.37450234 --> 00:07:31,873.37450234 Years ago, in 2006, I actually, I joined the Global Ethnodoxology Network with leaders from different parts of the world. 65 00:07:32,293.37450234 --> 00:07:41,243.37450234 And more recently, I was nominated to be part of the board of members, board of the directors of Wycliffe Global Alliance. 66 00:07:41,883.37450234 --> 00:07:58,236.70783567 So yes, um, that experience in dealing, learning with, teaching, indigenous communities helped me to, to be a better communicator for a global audience. 67 00:07:58,716.70783567 --> 00:08:03,406.70783567 and that's because to communicate with indigenous people in Brazil, they are very Thank you. 68 00:08:04,626.70783567 --> 00:08:05,616.70783567 objective. 69 00:08:06,476.70783567 --> 00:08:07,466.70783567 very concrete. 70 00:08:08,256.70783567 --> 00:08:13,437.13928634 So, for us to talk with them and, and teach and learn from them. 71 00:08:13,917.13928634 --> 00:08:16,977.13928634 The conversations, it's always straightforward. 72 00:08:17,777.13928634 --> 00:08:27,467.13928634 don't do curves, you don't do, uh, you just, you, you just learn how to be very direct and explain with illustration. 73 00:08:27,467.13928634 --> 00:08:32,916.47627888 So I brought that to my, meetings and, experiences with global teams. 74 00:08:33,296.47627888 --> 00:08:37,376.47627888 That's been a huge privilege to, to apply that. 75 00:08:38,176.47627888 --> 00:08:57,851.62779403 But the other way around is that like from a global perspective my day to day basis work village in the countrysides of Brazil, in the middle of the Amazon jungle, it, I just learned that it's worth it. 76 00:08:58,331.62779403 --> 00:09:02,221.62779403 It's worth it because I see the Christianity. 77 00:09:03,166.62779403 --> 00:09:05,239.96112737 actually, supracultural. 78 00:09:05,929.96112737 --> 00:09:17,639.96112737 The gospel is in the sense that it's above all cultures, but it's also intercultural because we can, it can be lived in every culture. 79 00:09:18,389.96112737 --> 00:09:26,639.96112737 So I've seen the expressions of Christianity in many different countries and places because of my global, uh, exposition. 80 00:09:27,153.2944607 --> 00:09:40,519.96112737 And that gives me, just courage and renewed, desire to see the same gospel being lived in a, a, in an indigenous community applied to that reality. 81 00:09:41,569.96012737 --> 00:09:42,249.96112737 I love that. 82 00:09:42,516.62779403 --> 00:09:44,666.62779403 there is a missiologist called Lamintzane. 83 00:09:45,601.62779403 --> 00:09:50,691.62779403 He says the gospel, not uncongenial in any garb. 84 00:09:51,431.62779403 --> 00:09:55,831.62779403 People from culture can live fully the gospel. 85 00:09:56,75.96112737 --> 00:10:12,204.88047812 Yeah, I mean, it's such a beautiful picture and, and word, you know, just the word itself, you know, being super cultural is such a helpful framing, I think, especially as we begin to speak about ethno doxology and ethno arts and the use of dance and music, in sharing the gospel with others. 86 00:10:12,204.88047812 --> 00:10:18,761.91350832 And so could you help us, as we begin to talk about this? Many people might not be familiar with those terms. 87 00:10:18,761.91350832 --> 00:10:33,638.24584165 Could you explain these to us in a way that we can maybe understand and, and why you think that this is something that's important in terms of concerning God's global mission and sharing the gospel with, with others? Yeah, sure. 88 00:10:34,18.24684165 --> 00:10:39,578.24584165 So, this fancy word, Ethnodoxology, is made of three Greek words. 89 00:10:40,38.24584165 --> 00:10:44,378.24684165 So, Ethnē is people, Doxos is glory. 90 00:10:44,783.24684165 --> 00:10:46,423.24684165 and Logia study. 91 00:10:46,913.24684165 --> 00:11:04,543.24584165 So basically, ethnodoxology is the field, uh, academic field, the study of how Christians in every culture with God and with others using their own arts, with their own artistic expressions. 92 00:11:05,422.89965609 --> 00:11:20,141.76496182 so basically we want to see people Worshipping God, preaching, praying, discipling, with local artistic expressions, using their arts to do that. 93 00:11:20,951.76496182 --> 00:11:23,871.76496182 And we also use the word ethno arts. 94 00:11:24,556.76496182 --> 00:11:33,453.43062849 to express, to refer to the traditional arts of a people, local people from a different community than, than our community. 95 00:11:33,940.09829516 --> 00:11:40,480.09829516 we truly believe that Christian faith is a communicative faith. 96 00:11:40,826.76396182 --> 00:11:47,916.76496182 The gospel is a message, right? the good news, literally, It's a news. 97 00:11:47,916.76496182 --> 00:11:48,686.76496182 It's a message. 98 00:11:49,336.76496182 --> 00:11:51,256.76496182 The Bible a book. 99 00:11:52,16.76496182 --> 00:11:55,856.76496182 God chose to reveal himself in a book form. 100 00:11:56,560.09829516 --> 00:12:13,240.09729516 so if we want look at a community of Christians If we want them to understand gospel, we preach in their language, If we want them to understand the Bible, we translate the Bible into their language. 101 00:12:13,730.09829516 --> 00:12:22,290.09729516 But if we want them to express themselves to God, we use their traditional arts that. 102 00:12:23,390.09729516 --> 00:12:26,20.09729516 So that's the, that's the communication. 103 00:12:26,30.09729516 --> 00:12:38,993.43162849 It has two ways, right? There is Uh, the receiver and the people that is sending the message and we need to use the same, mean, we need to use the same code. 104 00:12:39,513.43162849 --> 00:12:50,193.43062849 so it can be the language for Bible and preaching, the response of the people to God, uh, arts are a powerful means of, of communication for that. 105 00:12:50,716.76396182 --> 00:12:55,549.00185899 there was, an African musicologist from Wycliffe called Tom Avery. 106 00:12:56,365.66852565 --> 00:12:58,255.66752565 worked in Brazil for many, many years. 107 00:12:59,120.66852565 --> 00:13:07,180.66752565 studying and researching local music of indigenous people in Brazil, and he usually works alongside Bible translators. 108 00:13:08,700.66852565 --> 00:13:15,580.66752565 And there is a story that he used to tell of a very successful project. 109 00:13:15,930.66852565 --> 00:13:24,780.66852565 He composed new songs for the Canela people, and the Canela people liked so much that song. 110 00:13:25,675.66852565 --> 00:13:28,105.66852565 They were, like, using that everywhere. 111 00:13:28,105.66852565 --> 00:13:29,945.66852565 They were really, really engaging with God. 112 00:13:30,655.66852565 --> 00:13:50,395.66852565 So once a Canela leader came to the, to the translator said to him, know, Jack, you gave us the Word of God our language, but your friend Tom helped us to express ourselves to God. 113 00:13:50,780.66852565 --> 00:13:51,900.66852565 With our own music. 114 00:13:52,740.66852565 --> 00:13:55,801.00185899 So that's, that's powerful, right? The, Yeah. 115 00:13:56,10.66852565 --> 00:14:00,410.66852565 The, arts of a people is deeply and emotionally. 116 00:14:00,772.33519232 --> 00:14:03,52.33519232 rooted in their identity. 117 00:14:04,689.00185899 --> 00:14:12,632.33419232 we want the gospel, this beautiful message to be understood locally, to be applied locally. 118 00:14:13,372.33419232 --> 00:14:33,757.24965504 So one of the or issues is we bring this beautiful message with a foreign rap, with a foreign art, format, have the risk of being misunderstood or being a message from the outside, it's not really for me. 119 00:14:34,147.25065504 --> 00:14:38,82.15065504 So, putting the news, the good news. 120 00:14:38,442.25065504 --> 00:14:47,558.76720142 of the Bible into a local art form can make that more, deeply rooted in the culture, but also being seen. 121 00:14:47,953.76720142 --> 00:14:50,352.79825188 as a message for them. 122 00:14:51,136.34825188 --> 00:14:54,606.34825188 really appreciate you taking the time just to unpack that for us. 123 00:14:54,716.34825188 --> 00:15:23,176.34825188 You know, I think one of, for any of us who have tried to, to share the gospel with others or engaged with different people groups, as we preach the gospel, you know, I think part of the tension that I've experienced is, is how do we distinguish between What an ethnic group's culture is, and I suppose ethno doxology kind of fits into that space, um, you know, and, and what is, is a deeply rooted religious traditional experience. 124 00:15:23,506.34825188 --> 00:15:41,411.94597718 So, so for instance, if a group were to worship their gods, their previous gods or ancestors in a particular way, Would they be encouraged to worship Jesus in that same way? So if they're using certain instruments and certain beats and certain rhythms, that is just, it's part of their culture. 125 00:15:42,331.94497718 --> 00:15:53,590.99558297 How do we distinguish what is part of their culture and what's part of their religious paradigm? And how do we introduce Jesus into that space without confusing them? tool for that. 126 00:15:53,980.99658297 --> 00:15:55,430.99458297 It's called critical contextualization. 127 00:15:56,570.57262375 --> 00:16:00,280.57262375 it was originally designed by a biseologist, anthropologist Paul Hebert. 128 00:16:01,100.57262375 --> 00:16:24,799.53565417 And for in critical contextualization, he basically says, instead of you reject everything that is from the culture and embrace everything that is outside the culture and make the gospel foreign news to the people, you actually assess what you have in the local culture. 129 00:16:25,394.53565417 --> 00:16:27,634.53565417 And decide what is possible to use or not. 130 00:16:28,864.53565417 --> 00:16:41,838.9101375 So it's not, it's not, uh, completely rejection of the local things, the local art forms, not also is a completely acceptance of the local arts form. 131 00:16:41,918.9101375 --> 00:16:43,318.9091375 Everything that I have is for God. 132 00:16:43,662.0022452 --> 00:16:51,678.6770701 We understand that because of the sin, the sin stained people's lives, but also entire cultures. 133 00:16:53,198.6780701 --> 00:17:01,898.6780701 So there are aspects of a culture and the arts of a particular culture that are stained by sin. 134 00:17:02,348.6780701 --> 00:17:05,568.6780701 And we need to redeem that to use for God's purposes. 135 00:17:06,528.6770701 --> 00:17:09,698.6780701 And the way we do that is by doing critical contextualization. 136 00:17:09,718.6780701 --> 00:17:15,118.6780701 So basically, you a group of Christians or leaders or gatekeepers in the community. 137 00:17:15,968.6780701 --> 00:17:32,12.0114034 study the Bible together to see, okay, how can we apply this, biblical truth to our lives our own traditions? And then they will study the tradition enlightened by the Word of God. 138 00:17:32,772.0114034 --> 00:17:36,962.0114034 So they assess both things and say, yes, this is not good. 139 00:17:36,962.0114034 --> 00:17:38,912.0114034 We cannot replicate this. 140 00:17:39,707.0114034 --> 00:17:40,407.0114034 we can adapt. 141 00:17:41,257.0114034 --> 00:17:45,290.1015035 Maybe they would choose to adapt a particular traditional practice. 142 00:17:46,210.1015035 --> 00:17:51,630.1005035 Maybe they will have to reject completely or create something new. 143 00:17:52,310.1005035 --> 00:18:03,840.1015035 But when they, when they are engaged in that kind of Thinking they they will be able to create new things based on their culture. 144 00:18:04,560.1015035 --> 00:18:09,230.1015035 see, so it's also not accepting everything from the outside. 145 00:18:10,130.1015035 --> 00:18:23,745.1015035 It's also, it's actually adapting your culture, even though you have to change something or reject something, but the new creation, a new tradition, new art, new music, will be based on your cultural system. 146 00:18:24,157.682554 --> 00:18:35,332.682554 How much work does a missionary have to put in? to, to doing cultural contextualization or critical cultural contextualization within themselves. 147 00:18:35,342.682554 --> 00:18:45,722.681554 Like, you know, the, this, this idea of I'm, when I'm entering into another culture, I bring my culture with them and my religious paradigm of Christianity with me. 148 00:18:45,772.681554 --> 00:19:01,666.9961531 And so from the outset, how much work does the missionary have to do to ensure that they're assessing their own, religious paradigms? Hopefully none, but it will depend on the community that the missionary is working. 149 00:19:02,406.9961531 --> 00:19:13,606.9961531 If the community has a well established church and local leadership, the missionary will, will aid, will support the discussion process. 150 00:19:14,251.9961531 --> 00:19:21,631.9961531 letting them to take the, all the leading and the decision making process, it won't be the missionary. 151 00:19:21,791.9961531 --> 00:19:25,381.9961531 The, the leaders, the local leaders and local people will make the decision. 152 00:19:25,855.3294864 --> 00:19:38,55.3294864 with the context where this missionary is working is more like initial with a gospel, and then in that particular context, will have to take the lead in terms of discussions and decisions. 153 00:19:38,55.3294864 --> 00:19:43,665.3294864 But either way, it's important for the missionary to have a good understanding of the culture. 154 00:19:44,235.3294864 --> 00:20:14,566.3294864 Because it will help him to help others in that decision process, decision Yeah, are some, and I'm asking this off the bat, so you can feel free not to, not to answer this question, but what are some ways that we can or tools that we can use to analyze culture? Do you have any suggestions on how we can become better at, identifying the cultural like paradigms that we are absorbed in? so yeah, so, so the critical contextualization is one. 155 00:20:15,6.3294864 --> 00:20:16,426.3294864 There are multiple other ways. 156 00:20:16,426.3294864 --> 00:20:27,599.5447287 There are numerous other tools that you can use, but there's a particular one that we use in the the Ethnodoxology group around the world. 157 00:20:28,559.5447287 --> 00:20:31,869.5447287 it's called Creating Local Arts Together. 158 00:20:32,689.5447287 --> 00:20:42,479.5437287 That is a manual that helps cross cultural workers to understand local, the arts of a local particular community. 159 00:20:43,754.5447287 --> 00:20:51,134.5447287 encourage them to use their arts to God's purposes, to make that a better community in the future. 160 00:20:51,744.5437287 --> 00:21:07,364.5447287 So have that, uh, this book, the Creating Local Arts Together manual or book was launched the first edition in 2013, but we just got a second edition released by William Carey Publishing this year. 161 00:21:07,379.6447287 --> 00:21:21,289.2548653 So we have, uh, renewed, second edition with new strategies, but it is basically a manual that you can follow the steps you can apply that in a particular group. 162 00:21:21,379.2558653 --> 00:21:22,729.1558653 And that's specifically for you. 163 00:21:23,949.2558653 --> 00:21:26,941.2558653 So it's a good place to learn about that Hmm. 164 00:21:27,680.7890975 --> 00:21:30,940.7890975 the workshop called Arts for a Better Future. 165 00:21:31,740.7890975 --> 00:21:37,781.2619141 And it's held here in Dallas, uh, but also in all nations, and some other countries as well. 166 00:21:38,38.0957474 --> 00:21:38,618.0957474 Wonderful. 167 00:21:38,678.0957474 --> 00:21:43,598.0957474 I'll be sure to put that in the show notes for anyone that wants to pursue those resources. 168 00:21:44,78.0957474 --> 00:21:57,307.7624141 What are some of the biggest challenges you face in helping churches and mission organizations embrace ethno arts? Are there any misconceptions that perhaps need to be broken down before they're willing to engage? Yeah, that's a very good one. 169 00:21:57,844.5333892 --> 00:22:16,494.5333892 I think one of the biggest challenges, uh, Jason, for church leaders and cross cultural workers to see to face is that concept we have for arts is different than understanding local people have for their arts. 170 00:22:17,444.5333892 --> 00:22:23,314.5333892 For our, for us, arts are a cherry on the cake. 171 00:22:24,224.5333892 --> 00:22:26,714.5333892 is something, secondary. 172 00:22:26,814.5333892 --> 00:22:33,894.5333892 It is something just that we do for pleasure or for a leisure time. 173 00:22:34,634.5333892 --> 00:22:37,724.5333892 We listen to a song because it's beautiful, because we like it. 174 00:22:38,599.5333892 --> 00:22:40,239.5333892 We watch a movie to relax. 175 00:22:40,269.5333892 --> 00:22:45,259.5333892 We go to a theater to watch a drama thing because it's beautiful. 176 00:22:46,429.5333892 --> 00:22:53,189.5323892 So arts in our culture for Westerners is more in the realm of the the leisure, the pleasure. 177 00:22:53,739.5333892 --> 00:23:01,24.5333892 For traditional cultures and oral cultures Arts are actually the meat and potato the culture. 178 00:23:01,734.5333892 --> 00:23:05,854.5333892 the, main means of communication. 179 00:23:06,387.8667225 --> 00:23:26,687.8667225 So imagine you bring your concept of arts for beautiful things and just for the my free time you bring that concept of arts to a culture where arts are actually the main way to communicate important messages. 180 00:23:27,667.8667225 --> 00:23:53,41.2000558 How do you think they will react, when you neglect their artistic expressions? So, because this, understanding is so widespread in Westerners, actually don't grasp the real need for use local arts when you come to a local, community, majority world on oral cultures. 181 00:23:54,246.2000558 --> 00:23:55,26.2000558 That's one thing. 182 00:23:56,572.8667225 --> 00:24:10,831.2000558 because arts is a means of communication, we want to, to make good use of local means of communication, artistic means of communication to communicate the beautiful message of the word of God. 183 00:24:11,294.5333892 --> 00:24:20,814.5333892 but also a second thing is, is that arts, that understanding that arts is a, uh, universal language. 184 00:24:21,884.5323892 --> 00:24:27,331.1990558 So we have this saying you probably have heard of before, that music is a universal language. 185 00:24:27,821.2000558 --> 00:24:30,461.2000558 Oh, because music is a universal language. 186 00:24:30,861.2000558 --> 00:24:42,596.2000558 That means that I can use my music everywhere and it will communicate Like it communicates to me, uh, but actually music's not a universal language. 187 00:24:42,636.2000558 --> 00:24:49,879.5333892 Arts are not a universal language because, they communicate differently in different parts of the world. 188 00:24:50,602.8667225 --> 00:25:03,514.3525108 They are indeed, um, uh, universal phenomenon because they, Exist in every culture, there's not such a thing as the same language, artistic language that works everywhere. 189 00:25:04,231.0201774 --> 00:25:14,391.0191774 So misunderstanding, this misconception that music is a universal language leads people think, okay. 190 00:25:14,806.0201774 --> 00:25:37,774.2019956 If it's a universal language and it's good for me, chorus would be good for them, right? But, uh, that misunderstanding, to, to use a music system for, we have seven notes or 12 notes, right? If you count the sharps, in our music system. 191 00:25:37,984.2019956 --> 00:25:44,254.2019956 And we bring our, this complicated music system to a people that only have the pentatonic scale with five notes. 192 00:25:45,109.2019956 --> 00:25:48,509.2019956 crazy, right? It will sound weird. 193 00:25:48,519.2019956 --> 00:25:52,648.0859343 It will sound, foreigner for, for that particular group. 194 00:25:53,281.4192676 --> 00:25:57,621.4192676 So yeah, so music is, and arts are not a universal language. 195 00:25:58,241.4182676 --> 00:26:15,493.6919949 And yeah, if you take, if we take the gospel in this foreign, uh, Vessel be in the risk of making this precious message understood for the, by the people as a foreign message, something that is not for me, not applicable to my life. 196 00:26:16,653.6909949 --> 00:26:16,883.6909949 Yeah. 197 00:26:16,883.6919949 --> 00:26:19,863.6909949 So I would say those two are the main challenges. 198 00:26:20,202.1914949 --> 00:26:40,807.1914949 Yeah, and I mean, you know, I think we experience that kind of challenge even in our local churches, right? The moment we have an intergenerational community, we suddenly have this tension, you know? So in my church, we have good 60, 70 year olds who, you know, who like to worship in the way that they were raised in. 199 00:26:41,237.1914949 --> 00:26:46,947.1904949 And then if, if I'm engaging, you know, I, I like a certain kind of genre of worship. 200 00:26:46,947.1904949 --> 00:26:48,227.1914949 And for me, that is worship. 201 00:26:48,227.1914949 --> 00:26:52,477.1914949 And that's how I've been trained and been exposed to worship to God. 202 00:26:52,477.1914949 --> 00:26:55,407.1904949 And the younger generations don't necessarily engage. 203 00:26:56,632.1914949 --> 00:27:08,711.314593 And so I would imagine that once you even move outside of a local church, established local church context, and you move into, to an indigenous group in Brazil, you're right. 204 00:27:08,711.314593 --> 00:27:36,200.3773294 It's, it's not necessarily transferable, but perhaps what I'm hearing from you is that, that arts, is the, is a tool to share the gospel, but it's not the, it's not, you know, we've got many tools in our toolbox, not every tool is a hammer, right? So, can we unpack some gospel opportunities? You have seen firsthand how the arts can open up doors for the gospel in ways that traditional approaches sometimes don't. 205 00:27:36,200.3773294 --> 00:27:48,835.0434961 So what are some surprising ways that you've seen God move through ethno arts? it's beautiful when you see people, using their arts to, to express themselves to God. 206 00:27:49,535.0434961 --> 00:27:59,265.0444961 in a recent, uh, project, worked with, uh, a group of people called Paipa, a people group in Brazil called Paipa. 207 00:27:59,965.0444961 --> 00:28:08,515.0444961 They are from central Brazil they had recently finished the translation of the gospel of Luke. 208 00:28:09,125.0444961 --> 00:28:20,341.7101627 And because of political situations in Brazil, the translators could not come into the village to give them the translated book. 209 00:28:21,401.7101627 --> 00:28:30,171.7111627 So they talked to me and asked, can you do something like artistic so we can have parts of this book, this book available for the people there in the village. 210 00:28:31,1.7111627 --> 00:28:43,548.3768294 And we worked together and we created a video with a contextualized, paints and arts for the parable of the two builders, the foolish and the wise builder. 211 00:28:43,941.7111627 --> 00:28:53,265.8378294 And the narration of the video was the, the Piper translator, reading the book so we had, we had this video ready. 212 00:28:54,495.8378294 --> 00:28:56,595.8378294 and send them to, to the community. 213 00:28:56,916.9991938 --> 00:29:07,303.2311175 So there was one, one good example of how we can, use local arts, there is a very interesting video, that happened in a, church in Africa. 214 00:29:07,713.2311175 --> 00:29:10,263.2311175 And the, the first part of the video is. 215 00:29:10,773.2311175 --> 00:29:16,143.2311175 is a missionary leading a hymn and singing with the congregation. 216 00:29:17,123.2311175 --> 00:29:38,573.2301175 But if you're paying attention in the video, the congregation is mostly composed by women and children they are singing a Western But the second part of this video is after they're understanding the powerful way they can use their own music to worship God, they, they have this whole congregation engaged. 217 00:29:38,858.2311175 --> 00:29:41,138.2311175 And singing together and dancing together. 218 00:29:41,588.2311175 --> 00:29:42,608.2311175 It's just beautiful. 219 00:30:16,290.9063952 --> 00:30:18,280.9063952 Well, thank you for sharing that video. 220 00:30:18,610.9063952 --> 00:30:19,570.9063952 I truly appreciate it. 221 00:30:19,570.9063952 --> 00:30:22,340.9063952 I think it really just kind of solidifies it. 222 00:30:22,340.9063952 --> 00:30:29,30.9063952 And if you're listening to this via audio, you can go and find the video on Lausanne Movement's YouTube channel. 223 00:30:29,510.9053952 --> 00:30:32,250.9063952 So there's a lot of people listening to this. 224 00:30:32,260.9063952 --> 00:31:12,977.3802844 Some are church leaders, some are missionaries, some work with the nonprofits, What advice would you give these leaders who might be a little bit hesitant or just need a little bit more encouragement to embrace the indigenous or culturally distinct worship styles that they're engaging with? And how can they start integrating this into their ministries? think the main advice is pay attention to how people use their own arts, the importance of people give to their arts and use that as your guiding way to decide how you're going to use arts with them. 225 00:31:13,327.3802844 --> 00:31:18,907.3802844 So don't bring your assumptions that arts is a secondary thing to a community. 226 00:31:19,287.3802844 --> 00:31:25,667.3802844 Because it is very likely that they will give way much more importance for their art than you give to yours. 227 00:31:26,517.3802844 --> 00:31:27,347.3802844 that's, that's one thing. 228 00:31:27,640.7136177 --> 00:31:36,470.9627183 and the second thing is, they know more about what can be used and what cannot be used in their community. 229 00:31:36,920.9637183 --> 00:31:49,124.2779712 In terms of arts, then you probably as an outsider, we, we can know as much as possible, but not everything. 230 00:31:49,710.9446379 --> 00:31:55,710.9456379 our knowledge of the culture will be limited, limited by the time we spend with them. 231 00:31:57,480.9446379 --> 00:32:00,130.9446379 the many sources or books we've read about them. 232 00:32:00,890.9446379 --> 00:32:03,90.9446379 we will never be as the same as an insider. 233 00:32:04,0.9446379 --> 00:32:09,270.631007 So pay attention and listen carefully to, to the plans of local people. 234 00:32:10,105.631007 --> 00:32:31,740.0787458 The community or leaders of that community can give to the thinking process of how they can use their own arts and be there for them, if the decision comes different than what you think would be better, Because local Christians also have the guidance of the Holy Spirit, as missionaries do. 235 00:32:32,560.0787458 --> 00:32:35,383.6887948 So it is one thing that we need to look at. 236 00:32:35,383.7887948 --> 00:32:37,353.7887948 To learn and apply. 237 00:32:37,408.7887948 --> 00:32:56,451.3063061 Mm-hmm Yeah, and I would be curious to hear from you about, you know, There are church leaders who are listening who perhaps their churches are culturally diverse, you know, maybe their community started off as a white English only community and the community has begun to change. 238 00:32:57,271.3063061 --> 00:33:08,331.3063061 What advice would you give to, to churches who were traditionally English churches, maybe have the traditional framing and different cultures are entering into this space as I'm leaving it open. 239 00:33:08,341.3063061 --> 00:33:13,931.3053061 Cause this can be applied in many different countries and many different circumstances, but how does that. 240 00:33:14,571.3063061 --> 00:33:26,851.3063061 Those do the local church leaders need to begin to think about incorporating the other cultural group into, you know, the, the rhythms of the worship and the arts within their community. 241 00:33:26,861.3063061 --> 00:33:28,629.2438061 Do you have any suggestions? Yes. 242 00:33:28,732.5771394 --> 00:33:37,829.2438061 so, uh, multicultural worship is one of the main, ideas that we carry and, and encourage in theology world. 243 00:33:37,975.9104728 --> 00:33:42,385.9104728 and we have a group of people working like in multicultural worship. 244 00:33:43,35.9104728 --> 00:33:48,825.9104728 And what they usually recommend is that you can have different approaches on how you can. 245 00:33:49,630.9104728 --> 00:33:55,690.9104728 engage the arts of different traditions in your church, and the service. 246 00:33:56,400.9104728 --> 00:34:11,721.4967587 can first, one of the ways is you can, integrate songs and the language of that particular group with translation to English, of having traditionally in English and translation to the other language. 247 00:34:12,131.4967587 --> 00:34:13,71.4967587 So that's one thing. 248 00:34:13,541.4967587 --> 00:34:29,381.4967587 Another thing is actually involve, uh, non English speakers in the leadership of songs and in your church and other art form at a church. 249 00:34:30,301.4957587 --> 00:34:35,441.4967587 You can also, the entire church in prayer prompts. 250 00:34:35,846.4967587 --> 00:34:37,16.4967587 in different languages. 251 00:34:37,966.4967587 --> 00:34:43,206.4967587 languages that are part of your church, but not the majority part of your church. 252 00:34:43,896.4967587 --> 00:34:44,886.4957587 that's another thing. 253 00:34:45,806.4967587 --> 00:34:56,653.0755198 and also, showcase of artwork of different artistic traditions in our church can also be encouraged by, someone that is visiting your church. 254 00:34:57,33.0755198 --> 00:34:59,703.0755198 It's part of a, it's, it is a multicultural church. 255 00:35:00,183.0755198 --> 00:35:07,33.0755198 And imagine the beautiful paintings they can see from different traditions of your church, cultural traditions. 256 00:35:07,423.0755198 --> 00:35:09,116.4088531 So that's another option. 257 00:35:09,546.4088531 --> 00:35:18,776.4088531 So you have multiple ways to engage a multicultural church and with different arts in a service. 258 00:35:19,73.4713531 --> 00:35:19,573.4713531 Wonderful. 259 00:35:19,583.4713531 --> 00:35:20,363.4713531 Thank you, Aber. 260 00:35:20,363.4713531 --> 00:35:28,333.4713531 So you've mentioned so many good resources already, and I've encouraged the listeners to take a look at the show notes for those. 261 00:35:28,653.4713531 --> 00:35:40,213.3713531 Are there any other resources that you would like to direct us towards as we perhaps want to explore deeper and take, take this further within our own context? Wonderful. 262 00:35:41,286.4088531 --> 00:35:51,311.4088531 Network a group of people there, have more than 300, uh, ethnodoxologists around the world. 263 00:35:51,501.4088531 --> 00:36:05,921.4088531 We have representatives from 80 countries, in this network, or working in 80 countries, but we are a network of, of people that work, use arts, local arts to engage communities and people with God. 264 00:36:06,410.0951843 --> 00:36:09,920.0951843 and we, as part of that network, we have a newsletter. 265 00:36:10,375.0951843 --> 00:36:12,615.0951843 That is available for free. 266 00:36:12,945.0951843 --> 00:36:15,795.0951843 you can just register to receive a newsletter. 267 00:36:15,795.0951843 --> 00:36:26,311.7618509 And every month we have a highlight of what's happening in Theod doxology around the world, and the world, world of worship.org. 268 00:36:26,981.7618509 --> 00:36:29,891.7618509 It's a website of the Global Ethanol Dox Lodge Network. 269 00:36:30,455.0951843 --> 00:36:33,728.4285176 That's, where we put the main ideas. 270 00:36:33,728.4285176 --> 00:36:35,918.4285176 We have core values, we have stories. 271 00:36:36,363.4285176 --> 00:36:42,353.4285176 and illustrations for people that want to know more about, Ethnodoxy. 272 00:36:43,173.4285176 --> 00:36:50,863.4285176 A book, uh, called, the handbook of Ethnodoxy is called Worship and Missions for the Global Church. 273 00:36:51,743.4285176 --> 00:36:57,743.4285176 In that book, we have many, many stories and illustrations. 274 00:36:58,673.4285176 --> 00:37:05,943.4285176 tools that you can use that to apply different arts, use different arts traditions in different parts of the world. 275 00:37:06,623.4285176 --> 00:37:10,393.4285176 So, uh, yeah, I can, I can put the link for the book as well. 276 00:37:10,953.4285176 --> 00:37:13,583.4285176 I already mentioned the Creating Local Arts Together manual. 277 00:37:13,633.4275176 --> 00:37:14,553.4285176 It's also very good. 278 00:37:15,493.4285176 --> 00:37:27,897.9976077 In a more recent publication, from EMQ, uh, Evangelical Mission Quarterly, uh, magazine from January is they have this entire issue dedicated to arts and missions. 279 00:37:28,715.1063357 --> 00:37:32,5.1063357 We have a few articles that are already available online. 280 00:37:32,339.6265401 --> 00:37:35,309.6265401 so the last one is here in the Lausanne website. 281 00:37:35,649.6265401 --> 00:37:42,239.6265401 You have three articles that will cover about arts and more specifically about ethnodoxology. 282 00:37:42,656.4911235 --> 00:37:43,146.4911235 wonderful. 283 00:37:43,316.4911235 --> 00:37:44,776.4911235 I'll make sure that's in the show notes. 284 00:37:45,336.4911235 --> 00:38:02,227.9598735 Any closing thoughts as we begin to wrap up this interview? theme of the Fourth Congress Lausanne in Seoul was that Church should declare demonstrate or display Christ together. 285 00:38:03,487.9588735 --> 00:38:08,117.9598735 And again, we have the package. 286 00:38:09,917.9598735 --> 00:38:11,487.9598735 the Gospels of communication. 287 00:38:11,927.9598735 --> 00:38:21,97.9598735 the church is the, is the sender, the, part that sends the message, right? And the message is Christ. 288 00:38:21,457.9598735 --> 00:38:22,437.9588735 It's the gospel. 289 00:38:23,87.9588735 --> 00:38:24,157.9598735 We should do this together. 290 00:38:24,157.9598735 --> 00:38:34,286.2932068 By the way we do this, is declaring, like verbally, but also displaying visually, artistically. 291 00:38:35,406.2932068 --> 00:38:50,413.1451734 So, in his final, speech, Michael O said, we need to, we need to show the world the beauty of the Bride of Christ, the diversity the Church, which is the Bride of Christ. 292 00:38:51,343.1451734 --> 00:38:59,752.1638754 And we are diverse and we have different ways to apply the gospel to our lives. 293 00:39:00,177.1638754 --> 00:39:26,647.3617921 The way you do in South Africa is the way I do in Brazil, our challenges are different, right? So we can also use different artistic traditions help display Christ and demonstrate this huge variety of the church that God made, Wonderful. 294 00:39:26,917.3617921 --> 00:39:30,637.3617921 Thank you so much for taking the time just to share your insights with us. 295 00:39:31,67.3617921 --> 00:39:44,557.3617921 You know, as we, we think about taking the gospel to every person, uh, and every people, I think this is such a pivotal conversation for us to have that it's, it's not just about declaring, but also displaying as you have said. 296 00:39:44,567.3617921 --> 00:39:47,307.3617921 So thank you so much for your time. 297 00:39:47,307.3617921 --> 00:39:52,347.3617921 And I'm trusting that this has added value to those who are listening as it's added value to me as well. 298 00:39:52,496.9659588 --> 00:39:52,906.9659588 Thank you. 299 00:39:53,646.9659588 --> 00:39:54,176.9659588 you very much. 300 00:39:54,196.9659588 --> 00:39:55,636.9659588 It was great to share about it. 301 00:39:56,910.4499681 --> 00:40:01,0.4499681 Well, I hope that you enjoyed this episode of the Lausanne Movement Podcast. 302 00:40:01,280.4499681 --> 00:40:07,210.4499681 If you did enjoy the show, I want to encourage you to leave us a rating and review and share it with a friend. 303 00:40:07,699.0725039 --> 00:40:08,499.0725039 Till next week. 304 00:40:08,869.0725039 --> 00:40:09,319.0725039 Cheers.