May 3, 2024 • 32 mins
At Realise Earth we’ve always been focused on helping sustainability leaders build support for, and catalyse action on, sustainability across their organisation. A challenge is how to do this at scale.
That’s why we’ve now partnered with the Most Sustainable Workplace Index which can help you do just that.
I recently sat down with Jaime Blakeley-Glover, creator of the Index, to hear his story. Listen to learn:
- Why Jaime believed the Index needed to exist
- The challenges Jaime faced and how he overcame them
- The importance of seriously shifting the culture in organisations
Whether or not the Index is relevant to you and your work, in itself this a fascinating story of sustainability leadership.
You'll find contact details and other links mentioned in this episode in the companion blog post here:
https://realise.earth/embedding-sustainability-in-your-organisations-culture-the-missing-metric/
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Mentioned in this episode:
👉 Unlock Employee Action on Sustainability with the Most Sustainable Workplace Index
Join us for a webinar with Jaime Blakeley-Glover, creator of the Most Sustainable Workplace Index, and learn how the Index helps you tap into and unlock most employees’ latent motivation to transform your sustainability initiatives – Wed 22 May.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Osbert (00:00):
At Realise Earth we've always been focused on helping sustainability leaders
build support for and catalyze action onsustainability across their organizations.
One of the challenges ishow to do this at scale.
That's why we've now partnered withthe Most Sustainable Workplace Index,
which can help you do just that.
I recently sat down with JaimeBlakeley-Glover, creator of the index to
hear his story, listen on to learn (00:21):
why Jaime believed index needed to exist, the
challenges he faced and how he overcamethem and the importance of seriously
shifting the culture in organizations.
Whether or not the index isfor you and your organization,
this is a fascinating story ofsustainability leadership in practice.
(00:42):
This is leadership for sustainability,the podcast for sustainability
directors, managers, and pioneerswho want their organization to make
greater progress on sustainability.
It's so good to have you with us.
I'm Osbert Lancaster.
I'm a long time sustainabilityconsultant, facilitator and director
of Realise Earth, specialists inthe people side of sustainability.
(01:04):
Before we hear Jaime's story.
I've got a couple of apologies.
First I've been breaking one ofthe basic rules of podcasting.
I've not been releasingepisodes on a regular schedule.
Unfortunately, I've had additionalcaring responsibilities for some time
and I'm squeezing the podcast into gapsbetween that and work with clients.
And second, we had a problemwith Jamie's Mike, when we
(01:25):
were recording the interview.
We didn't have time to rerecord,so please bear with us.
I hope you'll get a lot out ofthis fascinating story, even if
the sound quality isn't great.
Right.
I'd now like you to join me and Jamie.
Jamie, you and I met at an eventlast year and we discovered that
our thinking around sustainabilityleadership was very similar.
(01:47):
I can't actually rememberwhat that event was.
Can you remember where we met?
Jaime (01:50):
I'm not sure, Osbert but I think it's probably one of these ones
that, I think it was an online event.
It might have been a BusinessDeclares one or something like
that, I think I was speaking at.
But it's one of these lovely momentswhen you kind of meet someone
over the internet and and have ashared connection around something.
Osbert (02:04):
Yeah, so that's right.
I remember we arrangedto meet up separately.
We had a conversation, you told meabout the Most Sustainable Workplace
Index, sounded really exciting,we got into it a bit further.
We decided to collaborate.
Since then, we've been really focusedon the practical arrangements for
that collaboration, we've neverreally talked in any detail about
how the index actually came about.
So I'm really looking forward tohearing the origin story of, the index.
(02:28):
So before we get into the historyto give our listeners a bit of
context, can you just give a quickthumbnail sketch of the index?
Jaime (02:36):
so essentially what the index is, it's a comprehensive
approach to people, culture,sustainability within organizations.
So the key challenges isit's really there to address.
So internally It's really, really hard toengage employees around sustainability.
We often see this action gap withinorganizations in terms of what
(02:56):
they're saying they want to do andwhat that's actually happening on the
ground and the impact that's creating.
So I think that's thefirst, first challenge.
The second one is really, I guess,from an external perspective,
we need more transparency.
We need things that are in place thattell an honest story of what's happening
in organizations and therefore kind oflimit the opportunity for greenwashing.
So what we've done to really solvethose is based on this comprehensive
(03:17):
framework, we basically created apathway for organizations to go on.
Firstly, to measure that, measurethe factors that are affecting
motivation, engagement, action onsustainability, enabling organizations
to get insight around that:
So how does that compare with sectors?
How does that compare when theylook at different parts of the
business and what's driving those.
To then think about, theirjourney as an organization.
(03:39):
So we have a maturity assessmentthat allows them to see what is that
cultural journey around sustainability?
And then finally to identifyactions and then measure again.
So at the moment we are working withabout 30 organizations in various forms.
We're expecting by the end of Junethat we'll probably have had about
30, 000 people taking the index.
(03:59):
And then we'll be, I've been workingwith some great partners, obviously
yourself, Osbert within Realise Earth,Greener Energy Futures, but also
strategic partners like the UK GreenBuilding Council , Rewild Earth in terms
of how do we scale this stuff up?
So yes, it's a really excitingtime for us at the moment.
Osbert (04:14):
Excellent.
Really helpful to getthat bit of background.
So where and when did it all start?
Jaime (04:20):
Where does it start?
So probably the really early kindof version of it, I was working
for the Sustainable DevelopmentCommission probably back in 2009, 2010.
And at that point I was workingwith some climate psychologists,
which, I remember at the time, justcompletely blew my mind actually,
that there was even such a thing.
(04:41):
And I guess certainly over thelast six years or so I've really
focused more around the kindof people cultural bit of it.
Because I guess what I've been reallyseeing over that time, certainly the last
10, 15 years, we have a lot of focus onthe technical side of sustainability.
And it always felt like the peoplecultural bit was almost a bit
of an afterthought in some ways.
(05:01):
But I guess in that it feels likethere's a huge, I guess, challenge and
an opportunity because certainly inthe UK, we maybe have 80, 85 percent
of people who care about climate, likethey're concerned, but certainly in
terms of our stats, only 30 percent areactually doing anything in business.
So we felt like thisis, this is a huge gap.
And whilst there's clearly fundingchallenges, there's technical challenges
(05:23):
in terms of I guess closing thataction gap on sustainability within
organizations, that people culturalbit felt really, really important.
But I was having lots of conversationswith our sustainability folk " yeah,
yeah, it's really important", Butit's really hard to get people engaged
with this stuff across organizations.
And it always felt like it waskind of the important thing,
(05:44):
but not really the urgent thing.
So What I really did was then say, okay,well, what can I learn from other things?
And so I started looking at othercritical business issues that are now
very much at the top table that probablywouldn't have been 15 years ago.
So if we look at things likeemployee engagement, wellbeing in
the workplace, those sorts of things,which are now absolutely understood
(06:05):
to be, to be critical, , they madeit onto that top table and got into
both the urgent and important box.
Was basically kind of create somethingthat could add value externally in
terms of telling an organizationstory to the world, but it also added
value internally in terms of kind ofguiding strategy and guiding action.
So that was really where it came from.
I guess that kind of feeling thatwe really need to improve what
(06:30):
we're doing in organizations aroundpeople, cultural sustainability.
And really that kind of look aroundkind of what can I learn from what's
gone before, I guess, in terms ofhow we can try and address that.
Osbert (06:39):
Hmm.
Obviously, there's awhole amount of work.
effort, energy, I guess, trials andchanging things around and stuff.
But what were some of the big challengesfrom that very early stage, I suppose,
of turning the idea of, well, we needan index, into something which was at
least a workable prototype or something.
What, what were thosechallenges at that early stage?
Jaime (07:01):
One of the things that really triggered it was thinking, okay, well,
what we're only measuring in many casesaround this stuff within organisation
is how many people we've trained.
So the first bit of the journeyreally was saying, Well, actually,
what do we need to measure?
So the research around that there werethen absolutely kind of challenges
in terms of prototyping, piloting it,changing the questions, thinking about how
(07:24):
you took, I guess, the multitude of waysthat people relate to sustainability in
different terminology and simplify thatin terms of, , A set of questions and a
way of working with organizations thatcan be universally understood whether
you're thinking about it in terms ofnet zero or circular economy or any of
these things are out there at the moment.
So that was probablyone of the first bits.
(07:45):
And then I think the single biggestchallenge has really been around the
communication messaging, because ifyou imagine you're a business, if
you're filling up your stationerycupboard and you need to buy some
pencils, you know, you need a pencil.
It's there.
It's a requirement.
You've got to have itwithin the organization.
You've got choices around what color thatpencil is, whether you buy sustainable
(08:05):
pencil, non sustainable pencil.
But the challenge we had herewas, you're trying to start from
a place where no one's even thoughtabout the need for an index.
So you're actually having to think abouthow you share some of the thinking behind
it as well as something that people canactually step into in a way that kind of
lands in terms of the challenges that arebeing experienced within organisations.
(08:27):
So I think that's been the single biggestthing is that messaging and just really
clarifying of where does this sit in theworld because we always knew it had value.
But it was obviously, where, where do wepoint this and where is it going to get
the most leverage within organizations?
Osbert (08:43):
I see that coming up a lot in our work and in sustainability generally,
it's that classic thing , coming up witha really powerful, effective product or
approach or service, but then actually nothaving a market that knows it needs it,
Jaime (08:58):
it's fascinating, isn't it?
And as you say, the conventional.
Wisdom, I guess, if you look at any of thetextbooks and things like that, it's like,
yeah, kind of go, go to your customers,ask them what their challenges are, and
then create something that works for them.
But I guess as you say kind of almost assoon as you do that, you're working within
(09:19):
the boundaries of what people can see.
And certainly when I've workedin big organizations, you're
seeing what's around you.
You don't have necessarily that kindof broader perspective on things.
So, so yeah, it's definitely been abit kind of back to front in terms of
thinking about, okay, what, what does theworld need creating that and then working
(09:39):
out how to sell it in inverted commas,
Osbert (09:43):
I just want to jump back into early on you said something
about deciding what you weregoing to measure in the index.
I guess that , must have been fairly earlyon before you could do anything else.
But how did you come about decidingwhat you were going to measure
and how you were going to do that?
Jaime (09:57):
One of the moments where a number of these things kind of clicked, I guess,
is probably one of the ways to look at it.
So over the last few years leading up towe published it last year, we were doing
a joint research project with PlymouthUniversity in the UK and then partners
in Australia and, and North America.
So probably three bits, and I rememberreally vividly, and we tend to go away
every summer for a month in the vanwith the kids, and I was in France, and
(10:21):
basically at this moment, I think itwas coming to the end of probably some
of the first stages of that research,where we'd done the literature review
and things like that, and the purpose ofthat research was really saying, okay,
well, we know that there's not a greatevidence base behind just giving people
information and hoping they'll change.
So therefore, what is it thatactually will create behavior change?
And what can we learn frompsychology and coaching in terms
(10:44):
of people and how we do that?
So it's really getting toa stage in that where we've
started to kind of clarify that.
And we've worked a lot with selfdetermination theory, motivation
theory within that bit of work.
So I think that's probably the first bit.
I think secondly, I guess it was justthis overwhelming sense that we're not
going to get where we need to get to ashumanity within organizations unless we
(11:08):
really address the people side of it,unless we can really engage, get people
acting on this personally in their lives.
And what I kept seeing withinorganizations was central
sustainability teams were frustratedbecause they were trying to engage
people and not much was changing.
It was really challenging, but you hada bunch of people who care about this.
(11:28):
So I felt there's a real need togo okay, well, how do you take some
of the learnings from that researchproject around the real importance of
motivation, because when we're motivatedabout something in our workplace, we
are fully engaged with it and we dosomething about it really importantly.
So it was taking that learning, thinkingthen about, okay, well, how do we
(11:49):
really support sustainability teamsaround this to unlock that frustration?
So how do we give them a practicaltool essentially to help them
engage with their workforce?
And then thirdly is, how dowe really raise the profile of
this stuff with an organization?
So how do we make it measurable?
How do we make it something thatcan be reported on, how do we build
(12:12):
it into kind of the mainstreamof how organizations work?
So it was really those kind ofthree points coming together in
terms of not only, I guess, what wemeasure, but how we need to deploy
it within organizations to help thepeople who really need the support.
And how do we then raise the raise thebar, , in terms of senior your teams.
Osbert (12:34):
You've been using a sort of a royal "we" quite a lot.
Who else has been involved?
Jaime (12:38):
I was I was very heavily involved in helping to kind of coordinate the
Climate Coaching Alliance for a fewyears, particularly during COVID.
And the three founders of that AlisonWhybrow, Eve Turner and and Josie McLean
have been hugely inspirational andparticularly Allie unfortunately when
she passed away last year, but we, we,worked together over a number of years in
(12:58):
the early stage of the research project,and she, she's been a huge inspiration.
Gosia Henderson, who's uh, a partner now,again, that relationship started within
the CCA and I remember during COVID, like,pretty much on a weekly basis, Gosia and
I would have a call just thinking, okay,how do we how do we deal with this stuff?
(13:19):
How do we work through finding a solutionaround this kind of people climate
coaching sustainability coaching piece?
And that relationshipis still going strong.
She's the head of programmingdelivery in the index today So
she's been hugely influential.
I guess I mentioned that the researchprogram we ran, so John Rhodes from
(13:39):
Plymouth uni both within the research,so him and Andy Milne and Alan Taylor
were the others involved in that.
But particularly John he's an , Doctorof Applied Psychology from Plymouth
Uni, and both working with him on theresearch project, but also he's been an
advisor, from a technical psychologyperspective in terms of the development of
the index, so his support's been amazing.
(14:02):
I guess when you're trying to dothis stuff, you just need all of
these different pieces, don't you?
Then, you then need friends whoyou can call on, who've been
marketing directors, who you cansay, okay, I'm really struggling.
Can you really help me justwork out your messaging?
And then you need your mate who'sgoing to really challenge you
and go, "look, Jaimie, look, isthere something really in this?
(14:22):
Like, how are you going tobe really brave about it?
How are you going to really try and turnthis into something that…" and, I guess
challenge the scope of your own thinking.
I think the biggest thing around allof that, in reflection, hearing myself
talk is, I'm sure it's a story formany startups is, it is a lonely place.
Like you're, up every morningat 6am, over six months, you can
notice that there's been a shift.
(14:44):
But you don't notice iton a day to day basis.
So having a community of people aroundyou who can support you and you can
share challenges with and thingslike that is, is, so beneficial.
Couldn't value it more.
Osbert (15:00):
Yeah.
It's a, it's a tough journey.
Was there a particularly toughhurdle that you faced and was
it just a sort of endless slog?
Jaime (15:09):
A lot of it is just, it's just the lived reality of, of
doing it as a startup, I think.
Because I guess from a personalperspective, I've got a young
family, want to spend time with them.
I don't want it to turn into somethingI'm doing 15, 18 hours a day because
I'll kind of miss, miss out on that.
So the biggest challenges, how, how do youin those early kind of years bootstrapping
(15:31):
it, keep both, the big picture andthe ambition in focus, but also just.
really look at like, what's the next step?
What's the next step?
What's the next step?
And you trust that overtime they will add up.
I got very familiar with like whattime the sun runs, the sun comes up.
So I think I think someof the hardest bits.
Yeah.
It's like in the, in the winter whenyou're still like crawling out of bed
(15:53):
at like quarter to six, six o'clockin the morning to, to do half a day on
it before having to do kind of otherfee earning work and things like that.
to keep the family going.
So I think it's, it's just the livedreality of that is, is, is really
challenging but it's hugely rewarding.
Osbert (16:08):
Yeah, absolutely.
So with all of that, I mean, did youever sort of, were you ever in that
space where you're thinking this reallyisn't going to work or it's like,
sod it, I need to give up, move on.
Jaime (16:20):
I think that the moments, yeah.
You'd lie if you, if you, if you said no.
I think that the particularbits have been over those long
winters when it's dark outside andyou're kind of having to do that.
I don't think I ever really doubted likethe technical capability, I guess, of it.
Because there's a process of prototyping,learning, refining, which is inevitable
(16:41):
when you're starting these things.
But it always felt like,okay, you can do that.
As long as you're listening and learningand experimenting with it, that gets
you to where you need to get to.
I think the biggest fear, has beenaround the impact of it, to be honest.
Because I think it's got so muchpotential and I see the potential
in the people we work with.
My fear is that it doesn't get the scalethat I think it has the potential to.
(17:08):
And then also what I really hope isit doesn't become a tick box exercise.
Because I mean, there's some amazingmovements out there, some great
stuff coming out of the B Corpmovement and things like that.
But equally I speak to companies whohave done their B Corp and they've done
nothing for the next two and a halfyears until it's time to re accredit.
And I think I'd really hate for itto become something that is just
(17:31):
that tick box exercise and someonegoes, "yeah we've done that".
Osbert (17:35):
Working early in the morning, what kept you going through all of that?
What or who, I guess, as well?
Jaime (17:40):
I think part is, yeah, being just clear on where I want to get to on this.
So I think that's part of it, is, I guess,I've done a lot of work around, kind of,
my values, where I want to get to, whereI feel the index should sit in the world,
what its place is, I guess, in the worldand how it can, it can support that.
(18:00):
I am a big walker.
I do a lot of mountainwalking and things like that.
So I think that's the other thing thatfor me is I absolutely invaluable is just
being really strict myself, creating thosetimes to head out to the Brecon Beacons.
Go and sit down in theMendip, somewhere like that.
And really get that perspective.
And just cut away the noise andsay, okay, right, well, yes, there's
(18:23):
loads of stuff I could do, butwhat do I actually need to do now?
What is the thing that theindex needs to grow into next?
And what kind of has to sit onthe back burner for a while?
So, I think that kind ofprocess of continually kind
of (18:36):
Big picture, what next?
Big picture, what next?
has been, has been really important.
Osbert (18:42):
The thing about getting out on the hills and stuff, I
think for me, it's a similar thing.
It's going out when you've, all thatstuff's churning through your head and
you're, you've got deadlines coming up andyou're just like trying to get things done
or you're trying to make a breakthrough.
It's like, just need to take a break.
I go out for a walk on thehills and, don't think about it.
It's when you're not thinking aboutit that , those sort of breakthroughs,
(19:03):
those new ways of looking at things,it all just falls down, all the stuff
you're wrestling with, it clears somehow,there's a clarity, and it's like,
this is the thing I need to work on.
Is that your experience, or is it anactive thinking process for you?
Jaime (19:14):
It's a bit of both to be honest.
As you say, getting out of thehills, getting on the mountains it
just lets the noise die down.
And what I'll tend to do is a combinationof both kind of active thinking
and, and just letting stuff flow.
So I'll tend to plan my walks.
For the first two, threehours I'm doing nothing.
I'm literally just going to focus onwhat's around me, enjoy it and work
(19:37):
on some different skills, just be outthere and, and just being part of it.
But then I will try and kind ofhave in my mind, maybe two or three
questions that I maybe want to look at.
Osbert (19:48):
Interesting.
Interesting.
It's a different conversation, but, Okay.
So with where you've got theindex to today, what's been the
most satisfying part of gettingto, to where it is at the moment?
Jaime (19:59):
I think it is, is absolutely without doubt seeing different
conversations unfolding is to work witha client who is having challenges in
terms of how they engage their staff,just not knowing really where to go,
having challenges saying, well, we've puta bunch of people through this technical
training and nothing's really happening.
To get to a place where youfeel like you've almost opened
(20:22):
their eyes to a different wayof looking at their colleagues.
And what I tend to talk to peoplea lot about is, are the conditions
within an organization ones that willpromote action on this or aren't they?
And to get people thinking in a bitof a different way, with a different
bit of a lens is hugely valuing.
And, Gosia and I ran a workshopfor a client a couple of weeks
ago, up in London and, Itwas just, it was really lovely.
(20:43):
We had, we had our an hour and ahalf workshop, but then it just in
the half hour afterwards, there'sthree or four of them who just
stayed around completely unprompted.
And these are kind of technicalpeople, , and they just launched
into this conversation around kind ofpeople and thinking about colleagues
and what's really going on and whatthe interaction is with the leadership
and all these different things.
(21:04):
And just to see that conversationsparked from it was, was amazing.
So that's, I think that'sthe single biggest thing.
Obviously from a personal perspectiveto work really hard on something for a
number of years and then speak to peoplelike you and others and they go, Oh yeah,
that's, that really makes sense, Jamie.
that's nice as well.
But at least it's the clientbit that really gets me going.
Osbert (21:23):
That really resonates as well.
It's, it's like if doing a workshop,it just starts coming together.
As you say, seeing things differentlyand seeing a new way forward that, that
wasn't open them to open to them before.
Jaime (21:32):
And I think that's the thing I, I kind of keep coming back to is I actually,
as soon as you start to look at some ofthe stuff within organizations in terms
of cultural dynamics, relationships,what's shifting, it starts to just
open up a whole different way ofthinking about it and working on it.
Osbert (21:49):
Mm-Hmm.
So what's happening next?
What, what are the, what are the plans?
Now you've got to a certainstage what's the next stage?
Jaime (21:55):
I think we're hugely ambitious in terms of where we
feel we can get to with this.
So probably a few different bits.
So we've now got a team offour of us working on it now.
Five, actually, so continuing tobuild that team, to build partners
to continue deepening with existingpartners like yourself Osbert.
More broadly we're doing a lot of workin the built environment at the moment
(22:17):
we're really keen to, keep expandinginto other sectors and really lean
into the place for this in corporatesustainability reporting because I
think it can add a huge amount ofvalue to that kind of cultural bit of
corporate sustainability reporting,which I think is really important.
And then really just thinking abouthow, how we scale up and just kind of
(22:40):
finance bits of that, investment bitsof that and tech solutions within that.
But it's really about , finding waysto get to a broader range of people
working with associations, working withmembership bodies to, to really kind of
shift, shift the conversation on this.
Osbert (22:55):
Hmm.
Exciting times.
So how's this yeah.
I mean, how's this,how's this journey been?
you, changed the wayyou, you look at things?
Jaime (23:04):
I think so.
I mean, I think it's quite interesting,like, as working as a coach for a number
of years, you, you spend a lot of timetalking to people about their values,
about kind of following their energy.
So to kind of have to live that myselfhas, has been an interesting experience.
But, but I think hugely rewarding one.
I think a big bit is around beingable to sit with uncertainty.
(23:27):
So I think trusting that you can kindof sit and work with that uncertainty
a little bit and that sometimesactually that, that does create those
moments where it does suddenly, thekind of, yeah, the, the fog lifts and
it becomes a bit clearer afterwards.
I think it's really challengedme, a lot, a lot of people who do
try and, focus their work on, onreally kind of purposeful stuff.
(23:49):
Like I see these big things aroundin terms of humanity, a global scale,
and you go, I just want to makea bit of a difference in my way.
So trying to keep that, likethat ambition of like going
there, we need to get up here.
But actually, If I get too stuck there,I can't think about the next step.
So I think that's a really kind of abig bit, of the journey has been around.
(24:11):
How'd you keep , that kind of tension,I guess, going between where you want
to get to the big picture and justfocusing on what the next step is.
Osbert (24:18):
So where you want to get to with the index, you talked about big
ambitions and wthe hole thing started tochange things, make, make a difference.
What impact do you hope theindex will, will have in, in
workplaces and in the wider world?
Jaime (24:31):
So I'll give you the corporate version.
I'll give you my unfilteredpersonal one after that.
So from the corporate version it's that,that external piece and internal piece.
So from an external piece obviouslythere's a lot of evidence now of, of
greenwashing and companies talkingabout things they're doing that
they aren't and things like that.
So I think from an externalperspective, my real hope for it is
(24:54):
that we bring more transparency aroundcultural sustainability and that
we really improve reporting on it.
So we, we have the index that canprovide consistent, comparable
evidence based data that allows us tomuch more effectively reports on our
cultural sustainability and think aboutcontinuous improvement and how we're
(25:17):
evidencing that to external stakeholders.
So I think that's the first big bitis how, how do we really drive that
conversation around transparencyreporting on, on cultural sustainability.
Osbert (25:28):
So before we move on, what do you mean by cultural sustainability?
Jaime (25:32):
So if we look at the range of things organisations will report
on in terms of sustainability.
So we will report on our carbonimpacts, we'll look at our materiality,
we'll report on other kind of metricsaround look at business travel, look
at water, those sorts of things.
We will often talk about,milestones that companies have
(25:52):
set around particular things.
But when I talk about culturalsustainability, it for me, it's
around the cultural conditionswithin the organization.
So for an individual workingin that organization on a day
to day basis, how does it feel?
How does the culture feel to them?
Is it valued?
Is it celebrated?
Is it aligned in terms of what theorganisation says and what it does?
(26:16):
Is it something they feelthey can step forward on?
And if they do and they're braveon it and they're proactive about
it, will it be good for them?
Is the organisation really thinkingabout the skills, the mindsets, the
abilities to influence that it's kindof supporting its employees with?
Is it really thinking about howwe close that gap between personal
(26:37):
concern and integrating it intosomething we do professionally?
So it's all of those things culturallythat is for me, like the felt sense of
an employee in an organization on a dayto day basis and the difference between
whether they find a way and they have theskills, the support, the people around
(26:59):
them, the culture, the alignment wherethey feel comfortable and confident every
day to go, yeah, I'm showing up for this.
And I'm going to really challenge myself.
And if I do this, I'm going to besupported and it's going to be valued.
It's going to be celebratedand I'm aligned with it.
The other bit, is that I just want tokeep making sure that from an internal
perspective, that it maximizes theopportunity as a really practical tool
(27:25):
to enable sustainability teams workingclosely with OMD, HR teams to really
focus on what are the key things thatwe can do, what the pathways that we can
take to motivating, engaging, activatingour workforce and understanding the
differences around the organization.
I think from a personal perspective Iwas involved in a lovely conversation
(27:47):
a few weeks ago, and the guy I wasspeaking to talked about the need,
it's the time for honest conversations.
And it resonated with me so, so much,that form of words, because I think
where we are historically, we canalways say this is the moment, but
this, this generation is so important.
And what we do is so criticalin terms of what we're going
(28:10):
to leave for our children.
So we need to create thosehonest conversations within
organizations where they say,
"Okay, look, how is the way that we areleading, managing the conditions that
we're creating in organizations, how arethey really, really either supporting
(28:30):
what we're saying we're going to tryand do or getting in the way of it?"
Because until we have that honestconversation, we're just kidding
ourselves as organizations.
All we're doing is creating beautiful,shiny, well designed strategies, and yes,
the central teams do amazing, amazingwork, but there's only so much that they
(28:50):
can do, and there's only so much theycan be asked to do, until we can really
create those honest conversations (28:55):
"Is the way we are running this organisation,
getting in the way of the very things thatwe're trying to get it to work towards
from a sustainability perspective?"
I think unless we have that, we'regoing to miss our opportunity
to do some important work.
Osbert (29:12):
So having heard you say all of that, and particularly that last
thing about another way of creatingspaces, at scale, for serious, honest,
meaningful conversations I'm nowconvinced even more than before that
it's really resonating and really lookingforward to continuing to work with you
on the index and helping bring that toour clients and helping them implement
(29:33):
the plans if they need that support.
So if people want to find out moreabout the index, you and I are hosting
an event on the 15th of May anddetails of that are in the show notes.
But if people want to find out moresooner, or they're listening to this
after the event, where should they go?
What should they do?
Jaime (29:49):
Yeah, so contact me on LinkedIn, direct message me look up
the company on LinkedIn, or contactus through the website, so www.
mostsustainableworkplace.
com.
So yeah, we'd love to talk to peopleabout it, so do just give me a call.
Osbert (30:01):
Brilliant.
I'll put all thosedetails in the show notes.
And if anyone listening to this, wantsto get in touch contact Jamie, and of
course, tell him you heard about it onthe Leadership for Sustainability podcast.
Thank you so much, Jamie.
Well, we'll be keeping on talking, butnot turning it into a podcast next time.
There you go.
I hope you found Jamie's storyinteresting and inspiring.
If you'd like to find out more about theMost Sustainable Workplace Index, you'll
(30:25):
find all the links via the show notes.
Please let Jamie know that youheard about the index from this
podcast when you contact him.
And now I've got a quick questionfor you to think about: who
do you know who's leading onsustainability in their organization?
Who else is leading onsustainability in your organization?
Would they also enjoy this podcast?
Would the approaches and ideas that weshare, help them make greater progress?
(30:49):
If so, please do recommend the Leadershipfor Sustainability podcast to them.
Why not send them an email or a WhatsAppright now while it's on your mind.
They'll thank you, and so do we.
Anyway, keep up the good work andmake sure to look after yourself
because the world needs effectivesustainability leaders now more than ever.
Bye for now.
At Realise Earth we've always been focused on helping sustainability leaders
build support for and catalyze action onsustainability across their organizations.
One of the challenges ishow to do this at scale.
That's why we've now partnered withthe Most Sustainable Workplace Index,
which can help you do just that.
I recently sat down with JaimeBlakeley-Glover, creator of the index to
hear his story, listen on to learn (00:21):
why Jaime believed index needed to exist, the
challenges he faced and how he overcamethem and the importance of seriously
shifting the culture in organizations.
Whether or not the index isfor you and your organization,
this is a fascinating story ofsustainability leadership in practice.
(00:42):
This is leadership for sustainability,the podcast for sustainability
directors, managers, and pioneerswho want their organization to make
greater progress on sustainability.
It's so good to have you with us.
I'm Osbert Lancaster.
I'm a long time sustainabilityconsultant, facilitator and director
of Realise Earth, specialists inthe people side of sustainability.
(01:04):
Before we hear Jaime's story.
I've got a couple of apologies.
First I've been breaking one ofthe basic rules of podcasting.
I've not been releasingepisodes on a regular schedule.
Unfortunately, I've had additionalcaring responsibilities for some time
and I'm squeezing the podcast into gapsbetween that and work with clients.
And second, we had a problemwith Jamie's Mike, when we
(01:25):
were recording the interview.
We didn't have time to rerecord,so please bear with us.
I hope you'll get a lot out ofthis fascinating story, even if
the sound quality isn't great.
Right.
I'd now like you to join me and Jamie.
Jamie, you and I met at an eventlast year and we discovered that
our thinking around sustainabilityleadership was very similar.
(01:47):
I can't actually rememberwhat that event was.
Can you remember where we met?
Jaime (01:50):
I'm not sure, Osbert but I think it's probably one of these ones
that, I think it was an online event.
It might have been a BusinessDeclares one or something like
that, I think I was speaking at.
But it's one of these lovely momentswhen you kind of meet someone
over the internet and and have ashared connection around something.
Osbert (02:04):
Yeah, so that's right.
I remember we arrangedto meet up separately.
We had a conversation, you told meabout the Most Sustainable Workplace
Index, sounded really exciting,we got into it a bit further.
We decided to collaborate.
Since then, we've been really focusedon the practical arrangements for
that collaboration, we've neverreally talked in any detail about
how the index actually came about.
So I'm really looking forward tohearing the origin story of, the index.
(02:28):
So before we get into the historyto give our listeners a bit of
context, can you just give a quickthumbnail sketch of the index?
Jaime (02:36):
so essentially what the index is, it's a comprehensive
approach to people, culture,sustainability within organizations.
So the key challenges isit's really there to address.
So internally It's really, really hard toengage employees around sustainability.
We often see this action gap withinorganizations in terms of what
(02:56):
they're saying they want to do andwhat that's actually happening on the
ground and the impact that's creating.
So I think that's thefirst, first challenge.
The second one is really, I guess,from an external perspective,
we need more transparency.
We need things that are in place thattell an honest story of what's happening
in organizations and therefore kind oflimit the opportunity for greenwashing.
So what we've done to really solvethose is based on this comprehensive
(03:17):
framework, we basically created apathway for organizations to go on.
Firstly, to measure that, measurethe factors that are affecting
motivation, engagement, action onsustainability, enabling organizations
to get insight around that:
So how does that compare with sectors?
How does that compare when theylook at different parts of the
business and what's driving those.
To then think about, theirjourney as an organization.
(03:39):
So we have a maturity assessmentthat allows them to see what is that
cultural journey around sustainability?
And then finally to identifyactions and then measure again.
So at the moment we are working withabout 30 organizations in various forms.
We're expecting by the end of Junethat we'll probably have had about
30, 000 people taking the index.
(03:59):
And then we'll be, I've been workingwith some great partners, obviously
yourself, Osbert within Realise Earth,Greener Energy Futures, but also
strategic partners like the UK GreenBuilding Council , Rewild Earth in terms
of how do we scale this stuff up?
So yes, it's a really excitingtime for us at the moment.
Osbert (04:14):
Excellent.
Really helpful to getthat bit of background.
So where and when did it all start?
Jaime (04:20):
Where does it start?
So probably the really early kindof version of it, I was working
for the Sustainable DevelopmentCommission probably back in 2009, 2010.
And at that point I was workingwith some climate psychologists,
which, I remember at the time, justcompletely blew my mind actually,
that there was even such a thing.
(04:41):
And I guess certainly over thelast six years or so I've really
focused more around the kindof people cultural bit of it.
Because I guess what I've been reallyseeing over that time, certainly the last
10, 15 years, we have a lot of focus onthe technical side of sustainability.
And it always felt like the peoplecultural bit was almost a bit
of an afterthought in some ways.
(05:01):
But I guess in that it feels likethere's a huge, I guess, challenge and
an opportunity because certainly inthe UK, we maybe have 80, 85 percent
of people who care about climate, likethey're concerned, but certainly in
terms of our stats, only 30 percent areactually doing anything in business.
So we felt like thisis, this is a huge gap.
And whilst there's clearly fundingchallenges, there's technical challenges
(05:23):
in terms of I guess closing thataction gap on sustainability within
organizations, that people culturalbit felt really, really important.
But I was having lots of conversationswith our sustainability folk " yeah,
yeah, it's really important", Butit's really hard to get people engaged
with this stuff across organizations.
And it always felt like it waskind of the important thing,
(05:44):
but not really the urgent thing.
So What I really did was then say, okay,well, what can I learn from other things?
And so I started looking at othercritical business issues that are now
very much at the top table that probablywouldn't have been 15 years ago.
So if we look at things likeemployee engagement, wellbeing in
the workplace, those sorts of things,which are now absolutely understood
(06:05):
to be, to be critical, , they madeit onto that top table and got into
both the urgent and important box.
Was basically kind of create somethingthat could add value externally in
terms of telling an organizationstory to the world, but it also added
value internally in terms of kind ofguiding strategy and guiding action.
So that was really where it came from.
I guess that kind of feeling thatwe really need to improve what
(06:30):
we're doing in organizations aroundpeople, cultural sustainability.
And really that kind of look aroundkind of what can I learn from what's
gone before, I guess, in terms ofhow we can try and address that.
Osbert (06:39):
Hmm.
Obviously, there's awhole amount of work.
effort, energy, I guess, trials andchanging things around and stuff.
But what were some of the big challengesfrom that very early stage, I suppose,
of turning the idea of, well, we needan index, into something which was at
least a workable prototype or something.
What, what were thosechallenges at that early stage?
Jaime (07:01):
One of the things that really triggered it was thinking, okay, well,
what we're only measuring in many casesaround this stuff within organisation
is how many people we've trained.
So the first bit of the journeyreally was saying, Well, actually,
what do we need to measure?
So the research around that there werethen absolutely kind of challenges
in terms of prototyping, piloting it,changing the questions, thinking about how
(07:24):
you took, I guess, the multitude of waysthat people relate to sustainability in
different terminology and simplify thatin terms of, , A set of questions and a
way of working with organizations thatcan be universally understood whether
you're thinking about it in terms ofnet zero or circular economy or any of
these things are out there at the moment.
So that was probablyone of the first bits.
(07:45):
And then I think the single biggestchallenge has really been around the
communication messaging, because ifyou imagine you're a business, if
you're filling up your stationerycupboard and you need to buy some
pencils, you know, you need a pencil.
It's there.
It's a requirement.
You've got to have itwithin the organization.
You've got choices around what color thatpencil is, whether you buy sustainable
(08:05):
pencil, non sustainable pencil.
But the challenge we had herewas, you're trying to start from
a place where no one's even thoughtabout the need for an index.
So you're actually having to think abouthow you share some of the thinking behind
it as well as something that people canactually step into in a way that kind of
lands in terms of the challenges that arebeing experienced within organisations.
(08:27):
So I think that's been the single biggestthing is that messaging and just really
clarifying of where does this sit in theworld because we always knew it had value.
But it was obviously, where, where do wepoint this and where is it going to get
the most leverage within organizations?
Osbert (08:43):
I see that coming up a lot in our work and in sustainability generally,
it's that classic thing , coming up witha really powerful, effective product or
approach or service, but then actually nothaving a market that knows it needs it,
Jaime (08:58):
it's fascinating, isn't it?
And as you say, the conventional.
Wisdom, I guess, if you look at any of thetextbooks and things like that, it's like,
yeah, kind of go, go to your customers,ask them what their challenges are, and
then create something that works for them.
But I guess as you say kind of almost assoon as you do that, you're working within
(09:19):
the boundaries of what people can see.
And certainly when I've workedin big organizations, you're
seeing what's around you.
You don't have necessarily that kindof broader perspective on things.
So, so yeah, it's definitely been abit kind of back to front in terms of
thinking about, okay, what, what does theworld need creating that and then working
(09:39):
out how to sell it in inverted commas,
Osbert (09:43):
I just want to jump back into early on you said something
about deciding what you weregoing to measure in the index.
I guess that , must have been fairly earlyon before you could do anything else.
But how did you come about decidingwhat you were going to measure
and how you were going to do that?
Jaime (09:57):
One of the moments where a number of these things kind of clicked, I guess,
is probably one of the ways to look at it.
So over the last few years leading up towe published it last year, we were doing
a joint research project with PlymouthUniversity in the UK and then partners
in Australia and, and North America.
So probably three bits, and I rememberreally vividly, and we tend to go away
every summer for a month in the vanwith the kids, and I was in France, and
(10:21):
basically at this moment, I think itwas coming to the end of probably some
of the first stages of that research,where we'd done the literature review
and things like that, and the purpose ofthat research was really saying, okay,
well, we know that there's not a greatevidence base behind just giving people
information and hoping they'll change.
So therefore, what is it thatactually will create behavior change?
And what can we learn frompsychology and coaching in terms
(10:44):
of people and how we do that?
So it's really getting toa stage in that where we've
started to kind of clarify that.
And we've worked a lot with selfdetermination theory, motivation
theory within that bit of work.
So I think that's probably the first bit.
I think secondly, I guess it was justthis overwhelming sense that we're not
going to get where we need to get to ashumanity within organizations unless we
(11:08):
really address the people side of it,unless we can really engage, get people
acting on this personally in their lives.
And what I kept seeing withinorganizations was central
sustainability teams were frustratedbecause they were trying to engage
people and not much was changing.
It was really challenging, but you hada bunch of people who care about this.
(11:28):
So I felt there's a real need togo okay, well, how do you take some
of the learnings from that researchproject around the real importance of
motivation, because when we're motivatedabout something in our workplace, we
are fully engaged with it and we dosomething about it really importantly.
So it was taking that learning, thinkingthen about, okay, well, how do we
(11:49):
really support sustainability teamsaround this to unlock that frustration?
So how do we give them a practicaltool essentially to help them
engage with their workforce?
And then thirdly is, how dowe really raise the profile of
this stuff with an organization?
So how do we make it measurable?
How do we make it something thatcan be reported on, how do we build
(12:12):
it into kind of the mainstreamof how organizations work?
So it was really those kind ofthree points coming together in
terms of not only, I guess, what wemeasure, but how we need to deploy
it within organizations to help thepeople who really need the support.
And how do we then raise the raise thebar, , in terms of senior your teams.
Osbert (12:34):
You've been using a sort of a royal "we" quite a lot.
Who else has been involved?
Jaime (12:38):
I was I was very heavily involved in helping to kind of coordinate the
Climate Coaching Alliance for a fewyears, particularly during COVID.
And the three founders of that AlisonWhybrow, Eve Turner and and Josie McLean
have been hugely inspirational andparticularly Allie unfortunately when
she passed away last year, but we, we,worked together over a number of years in
(12:58):
the early stage of the research project,and she, she's been a huge inspiration.
Gosia Henderson, who's uh, a partner now,again, that relationship started within
the CCA and I remember during COVID, like,pretty much on a weekly basis, Gosia and
I would have a call just thinking, okay,how do we how do we deal with this stuff?
(13:19):
How do we work through finding a solutionaround this kind of people climate
coaching sustainability coaching piece?
And that relationshipis still going strong.
She's the head of programmingdelivery in the index today So
she's been hugely influential.
I guess I mentioned that the researchprogram we ran, so John Rhodes from
(13:39):
Plymouth uni both within the research,so him and Andy Milne and Alan Taylor
were the others involved in that.
But particularly John he's an , Doctorof Applied Psychology from Plymouth
Uni, and both working with him on theresearch project, but also he's been an
advisor, from a technical psychologyperspective in terms of the development of
the index, so his support's been amazing.
(14:02):
I guess when you're trying to dothis stuff, you just need all of
these different pieces, don't you?
Then, you then need friends whoyou can call on, who've been
marketing directors, who you cansay, okay, I'm really struggling.
Can you really help me justwork out your messaging?
And then you need your mate who'sgoing to really challenge you
and go, "look, Jaimie, look, isthere something really in this?
(14:22):
Like, how are you going tobe really brave about it?
How are you going to really try and turnthis into something that…" and, I guess
challenge the scope of your own thinking.
I think the biggest thing around allof that, in reflection, hearing myself
talk is, I'm sure it's a story formany startups is, it is a lonely place.
Like you're, up every morningat 6am, over six months, you can
notice that there's been a shift.
(14:44):
But you don't notice iton a day to day basis.
So having a community of people aroundyou who can support you and you can
share challenges with and thingslike that is, is, so beneficial.
Couldn't value it more.
Osbert (15:00):
Yeah.
It's a, it's a tough journey.
Was there a particularly toughhurdle that you faced and was
it just a sort of endless slog?
Jaime (15:09):
A lot of it is just, it's just the lived reality of, of
doing it as a startup, I think.
Because I guess from a personalperspective, I've got a young
family, want to spend time with them.
I don't want it to turn into somethingI'm doing 15, 18 hours a day because
I'll kind of miss, miss out on that.
So the biggest challenges, how, how do youin those early kind of years bootstrapping
(15:31):
it, keep both, the big picture andthe ambition in focus, but also just.
really look at like, what's the next step?
What's the next step?
What's the next step?
And you trust that overtime they will add up.
I got very familiar with like whattime the sun runs, the sun comes up.
So I think I think someof the hardest bits.
Yeah.
It's like in the, in the winter whenyou're still like crawling out of bed
(15:53):
at like quarter to six, six o'clockin the morning to, to do half a day on
it before having to do kind of otherfee earning work and things like that.
to keep the family going.
So I think it's, it's just the livedreality of that is, is, is really
challenging but it's hugely rewarding.
Osbert (16:08):
Yeah, absolutely.
So with all of that, I mean, did youever sort of, were you ever in that
space where you're thinking this reallyisn't going to work or it's like,
sod it, I need to give up, move on.
Jaime (16:20):
I think that the moments, yeah.
You'd lie if you, if you, if you said no.
I think that the particularbits have been over those long
winters when it's dark outside andyou're kind of having to do that.
I don't think I ever really doubted likethe technical capability, I guess, of it.
Because there's a process of prototyping,learning, refining, which is inevitable
(16:41):
when you're starting these things.
But it always felt like,okay, you can do that.
As long as you're listening and learningand experimenting with it, that gets
you to where you need to get to.
I think the biggest fear, has beenaround the impact of it, to be honest.
Because I think it's got so muchpotential and I see the potential
in the people we work with.
My fear is that it doesn't get the scalethat I think it has the potential to.
(17:08):
And then also what I really hope isit doesn't become a tick box exercise.
Because I mean, there's some amazingmovements out there, some great
stuff coming out of the B Corpmovement and things like that.
But equally I speak to companies whohave done their B Corp and they've done
nothing for the next two and a halfyears until it's time to re accredit.
And I think I'd really hate for itto become something that is just
(17:31):
that tick box exercise and someonegoes, "yeah we've done that".
Osbert (17:35):
Working early in the morning, what kept you going through all of that?
What or who, I guess, as well?
Jaime (17:40):
I think part is, yeah, being just clear on where I want to get to on this.
So I think that's part of it, is, I guess,I've done a lot of work around, kind of,
my values, where I want to get to, whereI feel the index should sit in the world,
what its place is, I guess, in the worldand how it can, it can support that.
(18:00):
I am a big walker.
I do a lot of mountainwalking and things like that.
So I think that's the other thing thatfor me is I absolutely invaluable is just
being really strict myself, creating thosetimes to head out to the Brecon Beacons.
Go and sit down in theMendip, somewhere like that.
And really get that perspective.
And just cut away the noise andsay, okay, right, well, yes, there's
(18:23):
loads of stuff I could do, butwhat do I actually need to do now?
What is the thing that theindex needs to grow into next?
And what kind of has to sit onthe back burner for a while?
So, I think that kind ofprocess of continually kind
of (18:36):
Big picture, what next?
Big picture, what next?
has been, has been really important.
Osbert (18:42):
The thing about getting out on the hills and stuff, I
think for me, it's a similar thing.
It's going out when you've, all thatstuff's churning through your head and
you're, you've got deadlines coming up andyou're just like trying to get things done
or you're trying to make a breakthrough.
It's like, just need to take a break.
I go out for a walk on thehills and, don't think about it.
It's when you're not thinking aboutit that , those sort of breakthroughs,
(19:03):
those new ways of looking at things,it all just falls down, all the stuff
you're wrestling with, it clears somehow,there's a clarity, and it's like,
this is the thing I need to work on.
Is that your experience, or is it anactive thinking process for you?
Jaime (19:14):
It's a bit of both to be honest.
As you say, getting out of thehills, getting on the mountains it
just lets the noise die down.
And what I'll tend to do is a combinationof both kind of active thinking
and, and just letting stuff flow.
So I'll tend to plan my walks.
For the first two, threehours I'm doing nothing.
I'm literally just going to focus onwhat's around me, enjoy it and work
(19:37):
on some different skills, just be outthere and, and just being part of it.
But then I will try and kind ofhave in my mind, maybe two or three
questions that I maybe want to look at.
Osbert (19:48):
Interesting.
Interesting.
It's a different conversation, but, Okay.
So with where you've got theindex to today, what's been the
most satisfying part of gettingto, to where it is at the moment?
Jaime (19:59):
I think it is, is absolutely without doubt seeing different
conversations unfolding is to work witha client who is having challenges in
terms of how they engage their staff,just not knowing really where to go,
having challenges saying, well, we've puta bunch of people through this technical
training and nothing's really happening.
To get to a place where youfeel like you've almost opened
(20:22):
their eyes to a different wayof looking at their colleagues.
And what I tend to talk to peoplea lot about is, are the conditions
within an organization ones that willpromote action on this or aren't they?
And to get people thinking in a bitof a different way, with a different
bit of a lens is hugely valuing.
And, Gosia and I ran a workshopfor a client a couple of weeks
ago, up in London and, Itwas just, it was really lovely.
(20:43):
We had, we had our an hour and ahalf workshop, but then it just in
the half hour afterwards, there'sthree or four of them who just
stayed around completely unprompted.
And these are kind of technicalpeople, , and they just launched
into this conversation around kind ofpeople and thinking about colleagues
and what's really going on and whatthe interaction is with the leadership
and all these different things.
(21:04):
And just to see that conversationsparked from it was, was amazing.
So that's, I think that'sthe single biggest thing.
Obviously from a personal perspectiveto work really hard on something for a
number of years and then speak to peoplelike you and others and they go, Oh yeah,
that's, that really makes sense, Jamie.
that's nice as well.
But at least it's the clientbit that really gets me going.
Osbert (21:23):
That really resonates as well.
It's, it's like if doing a workshop,it just starts coming together.
As you say, seeing things differentlyand seeing a new way forward that, that
wasn't open them to open to them before.
Jaime (21:32):
And I think that's the thing I, I kind of keep coming back to is I actually,
as soon as you start to look at some ofthe stuff within organizations in terms
of cultural dynamics, relationships,what's shifting, it starts to just
open up a whole different way ofthinking about it and working on it.
Osbert (21:49):
Mm-Hmm.
So what's happening next?
What, what are the, what are the plans?
Now you've got to a certainstage what's the next stage?
Jaime (21:55):
I think we're hugely ambitious in terms of where we
feel we can get to with this.
So probably a few different bits.
So we've now got a team offour of us working on it now.
Five, actually, so continuing tobuild that team, to build partners
to continue deepening with existingpartners like yourself Osbert.
More broadly we're doing a lot of workin the built environment at the moment
(22:17):
we're really keen to, keep expandinginto other sectors and really lean
into the place for this in corporatesustainability reporting because I
think it can add a huge amount ofvalue to that kind of cultural bit of
corporate sustainability reporting,which I think is really important.
And then really just thinking abouthow, how we scale up and just kind of
(22:40):
finance bits of that, investment bitsof that and tech solutions within that.
But it's really about , finding waysto get to a broader range of people
working with associations, working withmembership bodies to, to really kind of
shift, shift the conversation on this.
Osbert (22:55):
Hmm.
Exciting times.
So how's this yeah.
I mean, how's this,how's this journey been?
you, changed the wayyou, you look at things?
Jaime (23:04):
I think so.
I mean, I think it's quite interesting,like, as working as a coach for a number
of years, you, you spend a lot of timetalking to people about their values,
about kind of following their energy.
So to kind of have to live that myselfhas, has been an interesting experience.
But, but I think hugely rewarding one.
I think a big bit is around beingable to sit with uncertainty.
(23:27):
So I think trusting that you can kindof sit and work with that uncertainty
a little bit and that sometimesactually that, that does create those
moments where it does suddenly, thekind of, yeah, the, the fog lifts and
it becomes a bit clearer afterwards.
I think it's really challengedme, a lot, a lot of people who do
try and, focus their work on, onreally kind of purposeful stuff.
(23:49):
Like I see these big things aroundin terms of humanity, a global scale,
and you go, I just want to makea bit of a difference in my way.
So trying to keep that, likethat ambition of like going
there, we need to get up here.
But actually, If I get too stuck there,I can't think about the next step.
So I think that's a really kind of abig bit, of the journey has been around.
(24:11):
How'd you keep , that kind of tension,I guess, going between where you want
to get to the big picture and justfocusing on what the next step is.
Osbert (24:18):
So where you want to get to with the index, you talked about big
ambitions and wthe hole thing started tochange things, make, make a difference.
What impact do you hope theindex will, will have in, in
workplaces and in the wider world?
Jaime (24:31):
So I'll give you the corporate version.
I'll give you my unfilteredpersonal one after that.
So from the corporate version it's that,that external piece and internal piece.
So from an external piece obviouslythere's a lot of evidence now of, of
greenwashing and companies talkingabout things they're doing that
they aren't and things like that.
So I think from an externalperspective, my real hope for it is
(24:54):
that we bring more transparency aroundcultural sustainability and that
we really improve reporting on it.
So we, we have the index that canprovide consistent, comparable
evidence based data that allows us tomuch more effectively reports on our
cultural sustainability and think aboutcontinuous improvement and how we're
(25:17):
evidencing that to external stakeholders.
So I think that's the first big bitis how, how do we really drive that
conversation around transparencyreporting on, on cultural sustainability.
Osbert (25:28):
So before we move on, what do you mean by cultural sustainability?
Jaime (25:32):
So if we look at the range of things organisations will report
on in terms of sustainability.
So we will report on our carbonimpacts, we'll look at our materiality,
we'll report on other kind of metricsaround look at business travel, look
at water, those sorts of things.
We will often talk about,milestones that companies have
(25:52):
set around particular things.
But when I talk about culturalsustainability, it for me, it's
around the cultural conditionswithin the organization.
So for an individual workingin that organization on a day
to day basis, how does it feel?
How does the culture feel to them?
Is it valued?
Is it celebrated?
Is it aligned in terms of what theorganisation says and what it does?
(26:16):
Is it something they feelthey can step forward on?
And if they do and they're braveon it and they're proactive about
it, will it be good for them?
Is the organisation really thinkingabout the skills, the mindsets, the
abilities to influence that it's kindof supporting its employees with?
Is it really thinking about howwe close that gap between personal
(26:37):
concern and integrating it intosomething we do professionally?
So it's all of those things culturallythat is for me, like the felt sense of
an employee in an organization on a dayto day basis and the difference between
whether they find a way and they have theskills, the support, the people around
(26:59):
them, the culture, the alignment wherethey feel comfortable and confident every
day to go, yeah, I'm showing up for this.
And I'm going to really challenge myself.
And if I do this, I'm going to besupported and it's going to be valued.
It's going to be celebratedand I'm aligned with it.
The other bit, is that I just want tokeep making sure that from an internal
perspective, that it maximizes theopportunity as a really practical tool
(27:25):
to enable sustainability teams workingclosely with OMD, HR teams to really
focus on what are the key things thatwe can do, what the pathways that we can
take to motivating, engaging, activatingour workforce and understanding the
differences around the organization.
I think from a personal perspective Iwas involved in a lovely conversation
(27:47):
a few weeks ago, and the guy I wasspeaking to talked about the need,
it's the time for honest conversations.
And it resonated with me so, so much,that form of words, because I think
where we are historically, we canalways say this is the moment, but
this, this generation is so important.
And what we do is so criticalin terms of what we're going
(28:10):
to leave for our children.
So we need to create thosehonest conversations within
organizations where they say,
"Okay, look, how is the way that we areleading, managing the conditions that
we're creating in organizations, how arethey really, really either supporting
(28:30):
what we're saying we're going to tryand do or getting in the way of it?"
Because until we have that honestconversation, we're just kidding
ourselves as organizations.
All we're doing is creating beautiful,shiny, well designed strategies, and yes,
the central teams do amazing, amazingwork, but there's only so much that they
(28:50):
can do, and there's only so much theycan be asked to do, until we can really
create those honest conversations (28:55):
"Is the way we are running this organisation,
getting in the way of the very things thatwe're trying to get it to work towards
from a sustainability perspective?"
I think unless we have that, we'regoing to miss our opportunity
to do some important work.
Osbert (29:12):
So having heard you say all of that, and particularly that last
thing about another way of creatingspaces, at scale, for serious, honest,
meaningful conversations I'm nowconvinced even more than before that
it's really resonating and really lookingforward to continuing to work with you
on the index and helping bring that toour clients and helping them implement
(29:33):
the plans if they need that support.
So if people want to find out moreabout the index, you and I are hosting
an event on the 15th of May anddetails of that are in the show notes.
But if people want to find out moresooner, or they're listening to this
after the event, where should they go?
What should they do?
Jaime (29:49):
Yeah, so contact me on LinkedIn, direct message me look up
the company on LinkedIn, or contactus through the website, so www.
mostsustainableworkplace.
com.
So yeah, we'd love to talk to peopleabout it, so do just give me a call.
Osbert (30:01):
Brilliant.
I'll put all thosedetails in the show notes.
And if anyone listening to this, wantsto get in touch contact Jamie, and of
course, tell him you heard about it onthe Leadership for Sustainability podcast.
Thank you so much, Jamie.
Well, we'll be keeping on talking, butnot turning it into a podcast next time.
There you go.
I hope you found Jamie's storyinteresting and inspiring.
If you'd like to find out more about theMost Sustainable Workplace Index, you'll
(30:25):
find all the links via the show notes.
Please let Jamie know that youheard about the index from this
podcast when you contact him.
And now I've got a quick questionfor you to think about: who
do you know who's leading onsustainability in their organization?
Who else is leading onsustainability in your organization?
Would they also enjoy this podcast?
Would the approaches and ideas that weshare, help them make greater progress?
(30:49):
If so, please do recommend the Leadershipfor Sustainability podcast to them.
Why not send them an email or a WhatsAppright now while it's on your mind.
They'll thank you, and so do we.
Anyway, keep up the good work andmake sure to look after yourself
because the world needs effectivesustainability leaders now more than ever.
Bye for now.
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