May 30, 2024 • 40 mins
How do you get started as a brand new sustainability manager? Libby Kerman stepped into the newly created role of sustainability manager with Lincolnshire Housing Partnership just a year after university. Now, two years on, she reflects on what she’s achieved and learned.
Libby talks about:
- the achievements she’s most proud of
- who and what helped her succeed
- tackling her next big task: sustainability reporting
Listen for ideas and inspiration to help you make greater progress on sustainability:
- why you sometimes learn most from people who resist change
- how relationships with colleagues across the business have been crucial
- how external networks of peers are so important
- why you shouldn’t worry that you don’t have all the answers
- podcasts that Libby has found useful on her journey
You'll find all the links mentioned in this episode in the companion blog post here:
https://realise.earth/how-to-succeed-as-a-new-sustainability-manager/
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Mentioned in this episode:
Upcoming events
Leadership for Susainability Online Meet Up 22 May 2025 Leadership for Sustainability Netwalks, Edinburgh, various dates Your Wild Nature 3 Day Women’s Retreat, Scotland, 30 May – 02 Jun 2025.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Libby (00:00):
They're always very willing to have that conversation and work
(00:02):
with me to, to see what we can doto improve things in terms of ESG.
Of course, not all colleagues are likethat, but having those individuals
that aren't on your side is actuallyprobably just as helpful as having
others on your side because you learnmore about, okay, what's, what frictions
there, why don't you want to, youknow, try and change things or explore
how we can do things differently.
(00:24):
This is leadership forsustainability from Realise Earth.
We focus on the people side ofsustainability to help you make
greater progress on sustainabilityin, and through, your organization.
I'm Osbert Lancaster.
And I'm so glad you're here with metoday along with our guest Libby Kerman.
Libby stepped into the newly createdrole of sustainability manager with
(00:44):
Lincolnshire Housing Partnershipjust a year after university.
Now, two years on, she reflects onwhat she's achieved and learned.
I started by asking Libby whatshe's most proud of having
achieved in those two years.
I think off the top of my head straight away, the thing that comes to
mind is our successful application tothe Social Housing Decarbonisation Fund.
(01:06):
We put joint funding into ultimatelyincrease the energy efficiency
of our customers' homes, reducetheir bills, and of course,
overall carbon emissions as well.
So I played a role in bringing togetherall the data initially facilitating,
those conversations, sparking theinterest of the directors and other
kind of senior leadership as well toget the appetite to drive this forward.
(01:28):
So we secured just over 8 million poundsthrough that fund and then we put forward
just over eight million pounds as well.
So a 16 million pound project.
So within that, we are installingexternal wall insulation to over 730
properties, which is absolutely fantastic.
And then also installing air sourceheat books to a further 82 properties
(01:50):
as well, which again is just fantastic.
And then that work, not only It's expectedto reduce our carbon emissions, it's also
expected to reduce customer energy billsby around 380 pounds per year as well.
So it's a huge, huge impact on, on thecustomers' lives, which is just fantastic.
Osbert (02:07):
that's an amazing achievement.
So any others you want to highlightjust now and we'll dig into them a
little bit more detail afterwards?
Libby (02:13):
I think probably a second one is more of an overarching strategy piece.
So I recently produced our new ESGframework, so Environmental Social
Governance, I'm sure everyone that listensto this podcast knows that already.
But yeah, I introduced that framework,which overtook our previous ESG strategy.
(02:33):
So when I started at LincolnshireHousing Partnership, we had an existing
ESG strategy, but it became evidentas I was progressing in my role
that that really needed a refresh.
So I spent a lot of time workingwith people all across the business.
So we have around 400 colleagues, so youknow, not as big as other organizations,
but still Still a lot of people to havethese discussions with, obviously had
(02:56):
these conversations and then producedthis refreshed framework or strategy
as others may, may recognize it as.
And that was just a really proud momentfor me, because not only did I think it
was an improvement on the last one, butI was also very happy with how colleagues
engaged in that process as well.
And I really feel as though we hadsomething very comprehensive, because
(03:17):
I don't know if other, sustainabilitymanagers feel the same, but it feels
as though, you know, we have ournet zero roadmap over here, we have
recommendations for our annual carbonreports over here, and then we have our
annual delivery plans that, you know, takeplace across every team in the business.
And I just didn't feel asthough we had anything.
substantial that really brought allof those together to drive change
(03:39):
forward and kind of communicatethat to colleagues and customers.
so yeah, that, that launcheda couple of months ago.
I'm very, very proud of that.
I think it came out reallywell personally anyway.
Osbert (03:50):
Excellent.
And anything else you want to sortof highlight now there's a huge
amount there already, but if there'sanything so different or whatever
you think, yeah, a different angle.
Libby (03:58):
Yeah, I think those are my, my big two.
I think we, you know, we've done otherthings looking at our green spaces because
I think as a social housing landlord,and I mean, rightly so, a lot of our
focus is always on our 12,000 properties.
but I've really tried to startshifting our mindset to ensure that
as a business, we are also seeingour green spaces as valuable as well.
(04:20):
so we've, we've introduced quitea lot of, KPIs around that.
So we introduce five newbiodiversity sites every single year.
We do quite a bit of work withorganizations like Lincolnshire Wildlife
Trust to enhance our knowledge andensure that, you know, we're constantly
improving these sites because it's not aseasy as I thought it was when I started.
So there's been a lot of, alot of lessons learned there.
(04:41):
But I think, yeah, me pushing that,having some brilliant colleagues, of
course, within the asset team, withinthe business, and then, you know, things
like biodiversity net gain, pushingthat from a legal perspective as well.
It's slowly turning the tide, Ithink, on how we're seeing our green
spaces, which is also really exciting.
Osbert (04:59):
Excellent.
Excellent.
So yeah, is there anything you'dlike to pick out and sort of talk
us through how the thing startedand particularly who and what helped
you achieve that place you got to?
Libby (05:11):
I think with the big energy efficiency investment, so the social
housing decarbonisation fund, I thinkwhat was hugely helpful on that was
we had a bit of an influx of somenew colleagues across the business.
So we had our new corporate head ofproperty start, as he's now known.
We also had an investmentmanager come in and lots of other
(05:32):
people within the asset team.
And I think these very ambitious, driven.
individuals coming in really gave methe courage and confidence to shout more
about this and push this forward evenmore because I'd come out of university,
so I was 20 when I started in theposition, I was reading all of this, I was
speaking to consultants, I was speakingto other sustainability professionals,
(05:54):
so I had a rough idea about what weneeded to do with our customers homes,
but then delivering that and sayingthis to the directors and the CEOs,
you know, someone who, you know, I amvery still naive and I'm happy to admit
that it was just quite nerve wracking.
And I was actually listening toanother one of your podcast episodes
that's talks about courage aswell, and the importance of that.
(06:15):
And I think those new colleagues comingin and also seeing the importance
and value in sustainability in.
an energy efficiency investment likethis one I've just been speaking about.
Yeah, it just gave me the confidenceto shout about it even more.
And because I had that backingbehind me, it just meant that
we could push it forward.
(06:35):
And we had a lot more people, youknow, shouting from the rooftops about
the benefits that this could bring,which was, yeah, that, that was huge.
I think the importance of havingthose high level individuals that,
that can help kind of fight yourcorner for you is really important.
Osbert (06:50):
how did that come about?
You know, they've come newly into role.
You, did you sort of goout and approach them?
How did you do that?
Or did they come to you?
What sort of turned theirpotential into reality?
Libby (07:00):
Yeah, so they, they came into that position, and one of the, the
individuals, our corporate head, heactually interviewed me for my permanent
position that I'm currently in, so hecame in, and then I think a month later
I secured this permanent position, so,we, we kind of built a relationship
up from, you know, there anyway.
And at the time I was satwithin the property division.
So I was sat kind of beneathhim within the business anyway.
(07:22):
and I was just very, very fortunatethat he came in with a passion for
sustainability, for ESG, for reducingcustomer bills and really seeing the
value in retrofit and the investmentsthat, that we can, you know, divert
to this area of the business.
So to be honest, I was kind ofknocking on an open door when
it came to, to that individual.
So I felt very lucky when he came in.
(07:43):
I was just so excited, you know,that the initial conversations we
had, I just knew that whatever Ibrought to the table, he would listen.
and it's not that I didn't have thatbefore, but I think having someone
Like that just gave me the courageto shout about it more and really
highlight the benefits that itcould bring to, to us as a business.
Osbert (08:04):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And how about, in relation todeveloping the ESG framework that
you've talked about, what was,what was really helpful there?
Mm
Libby (08:13):
Yeah, so I think a few things to be honest.
As a business, Lincolnship, HousingPartnership or LHP as we call them, they
are fantastic at developing colleagues.
So they put so much kind of investmentinto learning and development, which is
you know, one of the reasons that I reallyenjoy working here, and I was fortunate
(08:33):
enough to be placed as a winner on,it's called the top 30 under 30 program.
It's like a development program for youngpeople within the Humberside region.
and I went on that and it was a 12 monthdevelopment program, and that absolutely
made my confidence skyrocket again.
And it is all about confidence, Ithink, because coming out of university,
having that backing and having that,development opportunity, whether
(08:57):
that's to do with my communicationskills or, you know, presentation
skills or so many different things.
Having that behind me and knowing that thejudges on that recognize that within me
as well, just progress that even further.
But then I also think within thebusiness, I sit within what we call
the culture team at the minute.
So I sit alongside ourcommunications team.
(09:19):
And initially I thought that was a bit ofan odd fit perhaps, but actually I think
I've come to recognize that having such aclose relationship with the communications
team is so beneficial for so many ways.
So I work obviously very closely withthe property team looking at energy
efficiency, but on the flip side ofthat, that really isn't as impactful
(09:40):
if we don't have those communicationspecialists to actually tell that
story to our colleagues and customers.
So I think building those networksand relationships, not just externally
through that development program, butalso the, yeah, the colleagues internally,
and then having that, that supporthas just been absolutely fantastic.
Osbert (10:01):
You mentioned the, is it the, Head of Corporate Operations.
Libby (10:05):
Oh yeah, so he, his title is now Corporate Head of property
Osbert (10:09):
He came in, he had a really strong interest in sustainability
and that was like, you know, areal opportunity to work together.
What about other colleagues?
Wasn't that a case that there was lots ofother people interested in sustainability
and that was obvious at the start?
Or did it just come out whenyou started talking to them?
Libby (10:25):
Yeah, to be honest, when I started my position, I actually, I
think I'm usually quite an optimisticperson, but I started just thinking
that I'm going to come in, everyone'sgoing to find me really irritating.
It's a lot of change, you know, thingsare good as they are, but actually the
more conversations I have with people.
So when I first started, I just madea very strong effort to put calls
(10:46):
in with as many different people aspossible, to try and be present in
the office, just to try and catchdifferent, different colleagues, just
to, just to start conversations really.
And once you start having theseconversations with people, the
vast majority are very open toconversations about sustainability,
which I've found absolutely fantastic.
Something I've launchedsince starting at LHP is our
(11:06):
sustainability ambassador group.
So I wanted to have a platform thatwould allow these, It's particularly
passionate individuals, you know, thatreally have an interest in the topic to
come together monthly to talk about it.
I'll give them a bit moreinformation about what I'm up to.
We have external speakers comingin to ensure that our knowledge is
(11:27):
constantly being developed and that'sbeen a really, really popular group.
We get quite a good turnout everysingle month, quite a lot of
interest ideas being thrown in there.
But even if people don'twant to commit to that.
I've actually found that when I havea conversation with them, maybe it's
just because I work with such lovelypeople, but they're always very willing
to have that conversation and, you know,work with me to, to see what we can
(11:50):
do to improve things in terms of ESG.
Of course, not allcolleagues are like that.
You know, people that have worked forthe business for a long time, things,
you know, you know, what they're doingworks, but having those individuals
that aren't on your side is actuallyprobably just as helpful as having
others on your side because you learnmore about, okay, what's, what frictions
there, why don't you want to, youknow, try and change things or explore
(12:13):
how we can do things differently.
So those often aren't the mostfun conversations, but they're
probably the more useful ones.
Osbert (12:19):
So tell me more about that though, how did that go?
What were those conversations like?
Libby (12:23):
I think probably a lot of, not friction, because I think that's probably
the wrong word to say, but where I'vemaybe come up against some barriers.
One example could probably be withour green spaces I mentioned earlier.
We have a lot of green spaces at LHPand actually diversifying those and
trying to bring people on side as to whyexploring rewilding or looking at other
(12:48):
things that that we could do to reallytry and enhance those green spaces would
be beneficial can be quite difficult andthat's the same with our customers as
well but you do have to understand itso our customers pay a service charge
if we're leaving places wild it's almostlike what we're paying for kind of thing
so you've got to listen to to why you'rekind of having that that resistance I
(13:09):
guess so that that's definitely you One,one area that has been more challenging.
But then I think bringing in, you know,people like the Lincolnshire Wildlife
Trust to bring in their expertise.
I think going back and reviewingperhaps where we've tried rewilding
or, wildflower seed planting in thepast and assessing that, position
(13:30):
or site that we've selected.
So why didn't that work?
Was, did it have too muchfootfall in that area?
Is there a different, you know,area we can choose to focus on?
That's really helpful, butdefinitely that is one.
But as I say, we are gettingthere and the colleagues in
the asset team are fantastic.
They're, they're really helpfulin pushing that forward.
And I'd also say possiblyEV chargers as well.
(13:54):
EV chargers is quite a hot topic atthe minute in the housing sector.
So we have obviously our offices forinternal charging, but then we also
have quite a lot of say shelteredschemes, so apartments, flats,
things like that with big car parks.
So understanding how we can introduceThat with lots of legal implications, but
then we've also got customers asking ifthey can have them, which is brilliant.
(14:16):
So we want to progress that when we'vegot those on side, but actually the
different, as I said, legal implications,the infrastructural implications
of that is just quite challenging.
So I think when I'm having thesedifficult conversations with colleagues,
it's not so much that they point blank,disagree with what I'm trying to do.
It's the fact that it's verycomplex, and you have to consider
(14:38):
so many different things.
And when people are so busy just tryingto get on with their day job, which, you
know, colleagues across LHP, they're verybusy and do a fantastic job, when I'm
there knocking on their door asking toadd something else onto that, that's where
the challenges come in, and that's why Ihave to be understanding of those as well.
Osbert (14:55):
So, what learned from that process?
What are you doing differently thanyou would perhaps doing earlier on?
Libby (15:03):
I think I'm still definitely a work in progress.
As I said, I've definitely got a lotof learning and development to do,
but I think one thing when I initiallystarted at LHP, I would have maybe
suggested an idea and if one colleaguewas maybe not too welcoming of that,
I'd be like, okay, it doesn't matter.
It's fine.
You know better.
but now, I'm think, I thinkanyway I'm getting much better
(15:27):
at pushing back a bit more.
So okay, if one person saysthey're not keen on that idea or
it just wouldn't work, I'm moreopen to pushing back on that.
So okay, why wouldn't it work?
Can I go to other colleaguesand bring them in?
Do they have a different viewpoint?
And actually pushing why it's soimportant that we need to progress
things in terms of sustainability.
So whether that is whether that's reducingour waste to landfill, whether that's
(15:52):
working with the procurement team to lookat our suppliers and our supply chain.
It's having the courage to pushback a little bit more, even though
I do find it a bit uncomfortable.
I'm not someone that naturallyleans into kind of confrontation
or difficult conversations.
I'm finding that that's necessary whenyou're in a position like sustainability.
(16:13):
And I do think that's what I've learned.
I've learned to not take the first noas an answer, you know, to lean into it
a bit more and explore it a bit deeper.
Osbert (16:22):
that can be pretty challenging if you're getting knocked back , left
feeling, well, I don't know anythingor I don't, we can't make any progress.
How does that make you feel?
And how do you deal with theemotional side of being knocked back
Libby (16:32):
Yeah, I think having some particular colleagues across the
business, whether that's, as I'vementioned in the asset team, or, you
know, my line manager or other peoplewithin the culture team, having those,
those people is, is really helpful.
But then I also think having networksoutside of the business is really useful.
So as soon as I started in my position,I was looking to see if there was
(16:53):
any networking opportunities forindividuals in similar positions to me.
So I joined a sustainability forum, whichis for housing professionals within the
Humberside area and wider Yorkshire area.
And actually we go to the sessionsevery quarter, we have an agenda, we
have some topics and, you know, wetalk about maybe barriers we're facing.
(17:16):
And there hasn't been one meetingwhere I've gone to that saying,
you know, I'm struggling with this.
Every single time, other people willsay, oh, you know, put the hand up,
same, I am too, same here, like,what are we gonna do about that?
So, they don't always have the answer,but actually, having that soundboard
and those individuals who, you know, canrelate to kind of what I'm going through
(17:38):
and also say, oh, you know, same here.
I almost feel as though I'm notmissing a trick, if that makes sense.
You know, it's, we're all goingthrough the same thing, and being
able to bounce ideas off each other.
So, you know, some people say we've triedthat, or it didn't work, don't do that, or
we found this supply, they're excellent.
You should contact them to learn more.
so yeah, absolutely a network,even if it's just to have them as a
(18:00):
soundboard or just to know that otherpeople are struggling the same as you.
It sounds quite bad, butobviously we help each other too.
But as I said, knowing that you'renot missing something obvious and it's
something that we're all going through
Osbert (18:12):
Hmm.
Yeah.
Great.
And you mentioned the asset team,, you're part of being really helpful.
how does that relationship help youkeep going and do what you're doing?
Libby (18:20):
I think, do you know, it's maybe not the most, I don't know, complex
answer, but I just think having friendlyfaces, having very helpful individuals,
having people that are on your side.
And I'm not saying that other peopleacross the business aren't on my side,
everyone at LHP is absolutely fantasticthey're brilliant to work with, but
(18:41):
having those particular individualsthat have the same drive as you for a
particular topic is incredibly helpful.
So even if they aren't able to, youknow, perhaps change a situation
or help really move things along,just having them to speak to.
And as I said, just havinga friendly face to go to is.
incredibly useful.
And I think we may be underestimate thathaving these strong networks, not just
(19:05):
externally, like I've mentioned, butinternally as well it's so important.
Osbert (19:09):
Yeah.
That really resonates.
I think something we talk about quite alot on the podcast is the thing about,
you know, finding who are your, well,there's the collaborators, the people
you work with on a regular basis.
It sounds like there's someof them in the asset team.
Then you've got your allies who maybe a bit further away, but people
who can, you can call on if you needtheir support or they can be your
voice in the committee or whatever.
(19:29):
Then around after that, you've got thesupporters, the people who are ready
to get involved when the initiativecomes out they're happy to say,
yeah, that sounds like a good thing.
Libby (19:35):
It's good.
And I know that our, one of ourdirectors, so the director that I sit
beneath, he had that same conversationwith me, you know, he said, find your
people, find the people that will beour allies, that will back you, that
you can go to if you're having issues.
And I've found that that's been incrediblyuseful, whether that is, you know,
the sustainability ambassadors, theindividuals that I know are interested
(19:57):
in anyway, or perhaps people at thatmanagerial level that I know I've got that
close relationship with, and I know thatthey can help move things along if needed.
Osbert (20:07):
So looking, looking forward then.
So what are you working on now?
Or what are you going to beworking on next that you're most
excited about or looking forwardto really get into grips with?
Libby (20:17):
Yeah.
So, last year we became official adoptersof what they call the Sustainability
Reporting Standards for Social Housing.
So that is a reporting standard.
It is a framework created specificallyfor social housing alongside
banks and developers and other,you know, housing associations.
(20:38):
so we have signed up to that.
We released our first sustainabilityreport earlier this year.
So we have to report against that.
46 different criteria and it just ensuresthat we are being transparent with how
we're progressing on ESG and also ensuringthat we are kept accountable as well.
So, you know, this is howwe're doing last year.
How have we progressed?
So as I say, we released our firstreport for that earlier this year, and
(21:02):
we actually brought in a consultantto work alongside me for that process.
But this year I'm doing it on my own.
I've had the opportunity to really runwith that myself, which is really exciting
so I've been working with colleaguesall across the business to collect
those data sets and then it'll be Onmy shoulders to write that report craft
that narrative that really reflects howwe've progressed with sustainability
(21:25):
over the last year and i'm yeah, i'm veryexcited to have the opportunity to try
and bring storytelling to the front ofit as well, which I think is exciting.
So that's what I'm doing at the minute.
Busy nagging people for, for datasetsand trying to weave that together
into some form of, of story that wecan share with customers, colleagues,
(21:45):
our investors as well as stakeholders
Osbert (21:48):
That was just about to be my next question.
Who's the audience for this report?
Libby (21:50):
So it is a wide audience.
So we've got, it'll be sharedwith our colleagues, LHP, our
residents, our customers, andalso our supply chain as well.
So we've got a fantasticprocurement team at LHP.
We've done quite a lot of work in termsof sustainability and procurement.
So 20 percent of the, weightingwhen tenders come in so when we're
(22:14):
evaluating tender submissions, ifpeople want to win a contract with
LHP, 20 percent of that is on ESG.
So they have to answer particularquestions, whether that be to do with
carbon emissions, net zero, we'll changeit depending on what the contract's for.
so yeah, we've done alot, a lot around that.
So our supply chain as well.
I also want to make sure it's beingpushed out to them because it's
(22:37):
important that they know how we're doing.
Cause I really want it to be atwo way street with our suppliers.
I want them to help us, but Iwant to be able to help them
as well, wherever possible.
Osbert (22:45):
How are you finding that relationship with supplier?
Because I was speaking to I don'tthink it was housing, but it was in
construction, and they were sayingthey're really struggling to engage lot
of their suppliers on ESG issues becausethere's such a shortage of suppliers,
if they can't be bothered to fill inthat tender, they'll just go somewhere
else and know they can get the work.
(23:05):
So they were sort of struggling with that.
Is that your experience?
Libby (23:08):
Interesting, not so much.
I think a lot of our work has beenfocused on our larger suppliers.
So the contracts that arelarge enough that we've have
to do that tender competition.
So that's really where a lotof our work has taken place.
Something that we are looking to do.
Currently, so this is being picked up byfinance and the procurement team, as I
(23:31):
say, wonderful colleagues, they're runningwith this, which is fantastic and I
can't wait to see the, the outcome of it.
We also have quite a lotof smaller suppliers.
So, you know, people have put onour financial system, we maybe buy
small things of pens, pencils, we'vemaybe brought them in to deliver
training or something like that.
That's where we find it quite difficultto engage in the smaller levels and
(23:53):
we're trying to come up with a process tocollect data from those as well because
of course individually they're very smallsuppliers but added up together it's
a huge percentage but where a lot ofour engagement has taken place with the
larger suppliers I found the majority ofthe time they're absolutely excellent.
I think the only hurdles we doface is sometimes the answers
(24:14):
that come back to ESG you.
They are quite poor and that'snot the supplier's fault.
A lot of the suppliers may be alot smaller, they haven't got the
resource to, you know, have anapproach to calculating carbon
emissions yet or something like that.
But something that we've done asa business is introduce a supply
chain sustainability booklet.
So now, Every time we go out to doa tender, so there's a competition
(24:38):
launching, that booklet will be with it.
So that not only outlines whatsustainability means to LHP, what we
expect from our suppliers, I've alsolinked in a lot of free resources that I
just don't think businesses or a lot ofsmaller businesses are actually aware of.
Which, yeah, which I think is goingto be quite well received, sorry, but
(25:00):
yeah, so another example, I'll justtouch on it because it's relevant to
what you just said there, but we hadone supplier that didn't score too great
on the ESG or sustainability questions,but they still won the contract.
After winning that contract and they sawthat their scores, they were very keen
to actually sit down with me and have aconversation about how they can improve,
which I just thought was brilliant.
(25:21):
So I met them at the office, we wentout for lunch, we had a conversation,
I highlighted all the differentresources that as a, as a business
of their size that they can access.
and yeah, it was very well received.
I think most of the time suppliers thatwe work with are starting to recognize
that you're not going to keep winningbusiness unless this is really on
(25:41):
the top of top of your agenda, to behonest, and that you're prioritizing it.
So mostly a positive experience.
It's just hard to capture them all whenthere's so many suppliers of the business.
Osbert (25:52):
Is there a sort of regional network or organization that is
supporting SMEs to help them put inbetter tenders for these sorts of pieces
of work, or you can connect them with?
Libby (26:05):
Yeah, that's a good point.
So we have procurement frameworks.
So for large scale contracts andlarge scale projects, there's many
different procurement frameworksthat people can tap into.
So a lot of them are based around, energyefficiency work, so retrofit projects, so
they'll help when you wanted to put bidsin for say social housing decarbonisation
(26:26):
fund like I mentioned previously.
So if suppliers are signed up to oneof those, Frameworks, I imagine the
support that they could gain fromthere would, would be excellent.
I know that these frameworks are alwayspresent at the housing conferences.
I often attend a couple of those everyyear and they have huge, huge stands.
So I think they're getting, they'regetting bigger and bigger as
(26:47):
time goes on, which is great to
Osbert (26:49):
Well, let's hope they're supporting them on the
sustainability issue as well.
Libby (26:52):
Yeah.
Osbert (26:53):
Okay.
So let's change the pace a little bit.
What advice would you give to someonestarting out as a sustainability manager,
sort of straight from university or asimilar stage in their sustainability
career, perhaps they're finding it'sa bit of a struggle, maybe not landed
in an organization that's been soreceptive and so positive, perhaps.
What advice would you give?
Libby (27:15):
Yeah, it's a really good question.
I feel funny answering it when Istill feel as I'm learning myself, but
we're all always learning aren't we?
So.
I think one thing that I wouldreally emphasize is, there's
a couple of things actually.
So firstly, lean in to colleagues andthose wider networks across the business.
Whichever business you join, youwill likely have colleagues that are
(27:37):
absolute experts in what they do.
For sustainability, to besuccessful for you to be able to
embed sustainability across everysingle aspect of the business.
I think you have to have an understandingof what all areas of the business do.
So actually showing an interest inthe different service areas of that
business, finding those colleaguesthat are receptive to conversations
(27:57):
with you is absolutely key.
So find those internal networks, leaninto colleagues because the likelihood is
you'll find people that are very receptiveand very welcoming to those conversations.
And secondly, I'd also say that actuallyhaving those networks helps with this
one, but I'd say don't worry if you haveso many questions that can't be answered.
So something that really struck me andI had such terrible imposter syndrome
(28:21):
when I started my position was the factthat I had so many different questions.
And nobody could answer them.
And I'm like, am I missing something here?
Like, am I seriously just being stupid?
Because I was asking these questions,you know, okay, we have all these
properties, how are we going to fundthese, you know, retrofit measures?
You know, what, what heatingsystems are we looking at?
our scope three emissions, carbonemissions, fire gen, how are
(28:42):
we going to calculate those?
But actually having a lot of unansweredquestions is what I have learned.
make sustainability so exciting.
So the fact that there's all theseunanswered questions that nobody
knows the answer to, it actuallymakes it exciting and it makes you
want to keep driving things forward.
(29:03):
Keep learning, keep building networks,keep learning from the many many expects
that we've got across the housingsector but any sector in sustainability
there's always going to be peoplethat you can lean into so yeah it'd
be lean into those internal networksand colleagues and don't worry if
there's a lot of unanswered questions
Osbert (29:21):
Absolutely you're part of finding these solutions together,
that's why there's unanswered questionsbecause people need to come up with
those solutions and you can be part of
Libby (29:30):
Exactly.
So we're exploring at the minutesome infrared heating systems.
So we want to trial those and understandthe impact that they can have.
As an organisation we have a targetnot just to be net zero by 2050
but we also have The target for allhomes to have an energy performance
certificate of C or above by 2030.
So currently, around 85 percentof all properties are at C or
(29:54):
above, which we're very proud of.
The asset team have done a fantastic jobover the last, you know, 10 years really
driving, driving that statistic up.
But we then also have a lot ofour properties around 80, 85
percent are still on the gas grid.
So, you know, we're startingto explore alternatives.
So if heat pumps aren't perhapssuitable, what else can we look into?
So yeah, infrared is somethingreally exciting that we're trialing.
(30:17):
I mentioned it to some othercolleagues from, from different
housing associations and they said,oh, you know, we've heard about that.
We'd love to have a meeting with you.
So I've met with them to, toshare our experiences so far.
And yeah, just that knowledge sharing and.
helping each other as you go along.
I just feel like we're all, we allhave the same end game in mind.
So it's not so much competitive andpeople in housing are very receptive
(30:40):
to sharing their ups and the downsas well, which are probably the
most useful thing to hear about.
Osbert (30:46):
When we first spoke a couple of months back you said that you've
been listening to a lot of thepodcasts and found them quite helpful.
I'm just curious because, youknow, we've put out these podcasts
and they go out into the ether.
It's not like a conversation.
So I'm just sort of curious whatwere the issues or the areas that you
thought were particularly interestingand helpful for where you are?
Libby (31:07):
Yeah, I think one stood out to me in particular.
I can't remember the gentleman's name, butit was, they worked for Mott Macdonald.
You had a very detailed conversationabout engagement, and hearing
about how they were engaging.
I think they said they bring externalspeakers in and different, explore
different topic areas with colleaguesthat colleagues can, you know,
(31:29):
volunteer to attend and ask questions.
And for some reason that reallysparked something in me because
I thought, okay, if McDonald'sare doing that, they are huge.
I'm pretty sure aren't they multiinternational, they're massive.
And hearing that they were doing that,I'm finding it really yeah, successful.
Made me want to do that at LHP as well.
(31:49):
I was like, okay, why can't we do that?
So, as a knock on effect from that,I've started inviting local Charities
and not just local charities,but national charities as well
to come in and and deliver talks.
So we've had climate outreachon so i'm sure you've heard of
them to do with communication.
They were brilliant bumblebee andconservation trust as well that
(32:09):
people loved that in the business.
They absolutely loved it.
And I mean Even though it's not Thethings that I get the most excited about.
So I want to talk about the fantasticwork the property team are doing on
retrofitting, 700 properties or lookat my new strategy, even though that's
what I'd like them to be excited about.
Having these little things thatspark people's interest and spark
(32:31):
those conversations creates thatfoundational platform to build upon then.
So, you know, okay, you mightnot be interested in my strategy
yet, but I knew you found that.
Talk about bumblebees really interesting.
So how can we bridge that gap and startthat relationship and conversation?
Yeah, I found that one reallyinteresting and then more recently
(32:51):
I mentioned earlier talking aboutcourage so there was a podcast
that you spoke about about courage,but it actually came up at a Round
table , I attended as well previously.
I can't remember this lady's name.
And she said on that roundtable, you know, I think we were
discussing what do we need from.
sustainability leaders.
And she just said, pointblank, we need more courage.
(33:12):
We need to be more courageousin what we're asking for.
And again, that made me reflecton some of the projects I'm trying
to kickstart LHP and realize thatactually I'm not being unreasonable.
This is what the science is saying.
This is what we need to be doing.
This is what we have the responsibilityto be doing as a business.
And having her say that so, Idon't know, so openly, Just yeah,
(33:36):
sparked something in me again.
I was like, yeah, I do need tokeep pushing things forward.
I'm, I'm not crazy.
You know, if people findme irritating, that's fine.
There's a reason why I'm employedin the business within my position.
So I just need to, to keep going.
But no, I think your podcast inparticular, I was so excited when I
found it because I find it very easy torelate to, which I found really helpful.
(33:59):
So I think I've mentioned in inthis conversation previously, having
those external people that youcan speak to who are in a similar
position to you is so valuable.
That's what I think the podcast offers me.
and also, as I say, I'm still only twoand a bit, three years into my career.
I find it very insightful to listento other people through yourself.
(34:20):
I've met someone that workedfor channel four as well.
He was amazing to listen to.
So yeah, just, just learningand listening from other people.
It's fantastic.
When I found them, I thoughtI'm going to watch all of those.
You definitely did one on engagingcolleagues on your strategy and I found
that very helpful because at the time Iwas finalizing my ESG frameworks, I used
the pointers to, to help me as well.
(34:42):
And even if I don't always use thethings you say, I find it just very
insightful to see how other businesseshave maybe approached things or how
you've helped, you know, becauseobviously every organisation is different.
no, yeah, I love those as well, honestly.
I'm like, yeah, big fan.
Osbert (34:59):
Well, that's great.
It's good to know.
Out of curiosity, what otherpodcasts do you enjoy where you
might recommend to people as well?
Libby (35:06):
Let me get it up on my phone.
So one that I enjoy,Sustainability Uncovered.
It's by, is it Edie?
It's spelled E D I E.
and then there's also one called The NetZero Business Podcast by Gareth Kane.
So that I think has a similar feel toLeadership for Sustainability in the
(35:29):
sense that it has real life people in realpositions, talking very openly about, you
know, what's been going well or what'sI've actually been challenging them too.
So that again, I often find veryrelatable and the same as yours, I
find myself typing down lots of notes.
So if I'm driving, I'm like, HeySiri, make a note and it makes notes
for me as I'm, as I'm driving along.
(35:50):
So yeah, those are the, the other top two.
Osbert (35:52):
Great stuff.
Any final thoughts you'd liketo share before we wrap up?
Libby (35:59):
I think the only thing I can think of is if anyone is perhaps on
the early stage of their career, orthey're at university or college and
stuff, and they never did, you know,consider housing as an option, if you
are interested in sustainability, Iwould really just urge you to look into
it further, because it is an absolutelyfantastic sector to learn and develop from
(36:22):
so many different fantastic individualsand really explore so many different
avenues of sustainability, whether that issocial sustainability with our customers.
We also do fantastic work in termsof supporting customers with money,
support and bills and things likethat, or whether it is more the
environmental side of things, looking atproperties, green spaces, water waste.
(36:42):
I could, I could go on.
There's so many different areas that I'vehad the opportunity to, to learn about.
So yeah, I'd definitely say reconsiderhousing if it is, you know, sustainability
is something you're interested in.
Osbert (36:53):
Great.
That's a wonderful recommendation.
Thank you so much for being with us,Libby, it's been a wonderful conversation.
Libby (36:59):
Oh, thank you so much for having me it's a real, real pleasure.
Honestly, I never thought I'dbe invited, I'm just listening
most of the time, it's brilliant.
And that you have it.
Lots of inspiration and insightsfrom Libby's experience.
I'll just finished by picking out threethat I think are particularly helpful.
First the importance of building strongrelationships with colleagues across the
(37:19):
business, not just to have the supportof senior managers when you need it,
but also, so you can collaborate withcolleagues from different teams to take
for the sustainability agenda, much moreeffectively than you could do alone.
And two, the importance of a networkof peers across other organizations
who are working on similar challenges.
Not only can you call on them foradvice, but they can also help give you
(37:43):
the confidence to be persistent whenyou face resistance or uncertainty.
And three, the importance of learning fromdifficult conversations and situations.
Even though Libby clearly works in anorganization with supportive colleagues
and a great culture, it's stillhard work leading on sustainability.
But as she says, going into theseconversations to listen and understand
(38:05):
other people's perspectives andtheir reality, really helps you
work out how you can make progress,even when it's not so easy.
In the show notes, you'll find a linkto a written version of this podcast,
including links to some of the episodesthat Libby mentioned she'd found
particularly useful, alongside theother podcasts that she recommends.
To get future episodes as soon asthey are released, make sure to tap
(38:27):
“follow” in apple podcasts, Spotify,or your preferred podcast app.
If you're new to podcasts and arelistening to this on our website,
I really encourage you to take theleap and start using a podcast app.
Click the "follow" button on theaudio player on our website and
choose apple podcasts or Spotify.
Once in the app, remember to followLeadership for Sustainability
(38:49):
and perhaps the other twopodcasts that Libby recommends.
If you're a sustainabilitydirector or manager, who'd like
to share your experience withpeers who listen to Leadership for
Sustainability, just drop me an email.
That's osbert@realise.earth.
Keep up the good work and make sureto look off yourself because the
world needs effective sustainabilityleaders, now more than ever.
(39:14):
Bye for now.
They're always very willing to have that conversation and work
(00:02):
with me to, to see what we can doto improve things in terms of ESG.
Of course, not all colleagues are likethat, but having those individuals
that aren't on your side is actuallyprobably just as helpful as having
others on your side because you learnmore about, okay, what's, what frictions
there, why don't you want to, youknow, try and change things or explore
how we can do things differently.
(00:24):
This is leadership forsustainability from Realise Earth.
We focus on the people side ofsustainability to help you make
greater progress on sustainabilityin, and through, your organization.
I'm Osbert Lancaster.
And I'm so glad you're here with metoday along with our guest Libby Kerman.
Libby stepped into the newly createdrole of sustainability manager with
(00:44):
Lincolnshire Housing Partnershipjust a year after university.
Now, two years on, she reflects onwhat she's achieved and learned.
I started by asking Libby whatshe's most proud of having
achieved in those two years.
I think off the top of my head straight away, the thing that comes to
mind is our successful application tothe Social Housing Decarbonisation Fund.
(01:06):
We put joint funding into ultimatelyincrease the energy efficiency
of our customers' homes, reducetheir bills, and of course,
overall carbon emissions as well.
So I played a role in bringing togetherall the data initially facilitating,
those conversations, sparking theinterest of the directors and other
kind of senior leadership as well toget the appetite to drive this forward.
(01:28):
So we secured just over 8 million poundsthrough that fund and then we put forward
just over eight million pounds as well.
So a 16 million pound project.
So within that, we are installingexternal wall insulation to over 730
properties, which is absolutely fantastic.
And then also installing air sourceheat books to a further 82 properties
(01:50):
as well, which again is just fantastic.
And then that work, not only It's expectedto reduce our carbon emissions, it's also
expected to reduce customer energy billsby around 380 pounds per year as well.
So it's a huge, huge impact on, on thecustomers' lives, which is just fantastic.
Osbert (02:07):
that's an amazing achievement.
So any others you want to highlightjust now and we'll dig into them a
little bit more detail afterwards?
Libby (02:13):
I think probably a second one is more of an overarching strategy piece.
So I recently produced our new ESGframework, so Environmental Social
Governance, I'm sure everyone that listensto this podcast knows that already.
But yeah, I introduced that framework,which overtook our previous ESG strategy.
(02:33):
So when I started at LincolnshireHousing Partnership, we had an existing
ESG strategy, but it became evidentas I was progressing in my role
that that really needed a refresh.
So I spent a lot of time workingwith people all across the business.
So we have around 400 colleagues, so youknow, not as big as other organizations,
but still Still a lot of people to havethese discussions with, obviously had
(02:56):
these conversations and then producedthis refreshed framework or strategy
as others may, may recognize it as.
And that was just a really proud momentfor me, because not only did I think it
was an improvement on the last one, butI was also very happy with how colleagues
engaged in that process as well.
And I really feel as though we hadsomething very comprehensive, because
(03:17):
I don't know if other, sustainabilitymanagers feel the same, but it feels
as though, you know, we have ournet zero roadmap over here, we have
recommendations for our annual carbonreports over here, and then we have our
annual delivery plans that, you know, takeplace across every team in the business.
And I just didn't feel asthough we had anything.
substantial that really brought allof those together to drive change
(03:39):
forward and kind of communicatethat to colleagues and customers.
so yeah, that, that launcheda couple of months ago.
I'm very, very proud of that.
I think it came out reallywell personally anyway.
Osbert (03:50):
Excellent.
And anything else you want to sortof highlight now there's a huge
amount there already, but if there'sanything so different or whatever
you think, yeah, a different angle.
Libby (03:58):
Yeah, I think those are my, my big two.
I think we, you know, we've done otherthings looking at our green spaces because
I think as a social housing landlord,and I mean, rightly so, a lot of our
focus is always on our 12,000 properties.
but I've really tried to startshifting our mindset to ensure that
as a business, we are also seeingour green spaces as valuable as well.
(04:20):
so we've, we've introduced quitea lot of, KPIs around that.
So we introduce five newbiodiversity sites every single year.
We do quite a bit of work withorganizations like Lincolnshire Wildlife
Trust to enhance our knowledge andensure that, you know, we're constantly
improving these sites because it's not aseasy as I thought it was when I started.
So there's been a lot of, alot of lessons learned there.
(04:41):
But I think, yeah, me pushing that,having some brilliant colleagues, of
course, within the asset team, withinthe business, and then, you know, things
like biodiversity net gain, pushingthat from a legal perspective as well.
It's slowly turning the tide, Ithink, on how we're seeing our green
spaces, which is also really exciting.
Osbert (04:59):
Excellent.
Excellent.
So yeah, is there anything you'dlike to pick out and sort of talk
us through how the thing startedand particularly who and what helped
you achieve that place you got to?
Libby (05:11):
I think with the big energy efficiency investment, so the social
housing decarbonisation fund, I thinkwhat was hugely helpful on that was
we had a bit of an influx of somenew colleagues across the business.
So we had our new corporate head ofproperty start, as he's now known.
We also had an investmentmanager come in and lots of other
(05:32):
people within the asset team.
And I think these very ambitious, driven.
individuals coming in really gave methe courage and confidence to shout more
about this and push this forward evenmore because I'd come out of university,
so I was 20 when I started in theposition, I was reading all of this, I was
speaking to consultants, I was speakingto other sustainability professionals,
(05:54):
so I had a rough idea about what weneeded to do with our customers homes,
but then delivering that and sayingthis to the directors and the CEOs,
you know, someone who, you know, I amvery still naive and I'm happy to admit
that it was just quite nerve wracking.
And I was actually listening toanother one of your podcast episodes
that's talks about courage aswell, and the importance of that.
(06:15):
And I think those new colleagues comingin and also seeing the importance
and value in sustainability in.
an energy efficiency investment likethis one I've just been speaking about.
Yeah, it just gave me the confidenceto shout about it even more.
And because I had that backingbehind me, it just meant that
we could push it forward.
(06:35):
And we had a lot more people, youknow, shouting from the rooftops about
the benefits that this could bring,which was, yeah, that, that was huge.
I think the importance of havingthose high level individuals that,
that can help kind of fight yourcorner for you is really important.
Osbert (06:50):
how did that come about?
You know, they've come newly into role.
You, did you sort of goout and approach them?
How did you do that?
Or did they come to you?
What sort of turned theirpotential into reality?
Libby (07:00):
Yeah, so they, they came into that position, and one of the, the
individuals, our corporate head, heactually interviewed me for my permanent
position that I'm currently in, so hecame in, and then I think a month later
I secured this permanent position, so,we, we kind of built a relationship
up from, you know, there anyway.
And at the time I was satwithin the property division.
So I was sat kind of beneathhim within the business anyway.
(07:22):
and I was just very, very fortunatethat he came in with a passion for
sustainability, for ESG, for reducingcustomer bills and really seeing the
value in retrofit and the investmentsthat, that we can, you know, divert
to this area of the business.
So to be honest, I was kind ofknocking on an open door when
it came to, to that individual.
So I felt very lucky when he came in.
(07:43):
I was just so excited, you know,that the initial conversations we
had, I just knew that whatever Ibrought to the table, he would listen.
and it's not that I didn't have thatbefore, but I think having someone
Like that just gave me the courageto shout about it more and really
highlight the benefits that itcould bring to, to us as a business.
Osbert (08:04):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And how about, in relation todeveloping the ESG framework that
you've talked about, what was,what was really helpful there?
Mm
Libby (08:13):
Yeah, so I think a few things to be honest.
As a business, Lincolnship, HousingPartnership or LHP as we call them, they
are fantastic at developing colleagues.
So they put so much kind of investmentinto learning and development, which is
you know, one of the reasons that I reallyenjoy working here, and I was fortunate
(08:33):
enough to be placed as a winner on,it's called the top 30 under 30 program.
It's like a development program for youngpeople within the Humberside region.
and I went on that and it was a 12 monthdevelopment program, and that absolutely
made my confidence skyrocket again.
And it is all about confidence, Ithink, because coming out of university,
having that backing and having that,development opportunity, whether
(08:57):
that's to do with my communicationskills or, you know, presentation
skills or so many different things.
Having that behind me and knowing that thejudges on that recognize that within me
as well, just progress that even further.
But then I also think within thebusiness, I sit within what we call
the culture team at the minute.
So I sit alongside ourcommunications team.
(09:19):
And initially I thought that was a bit ofan odd fit perhaps, but actually I think
I've come to recognize that having such aclose relationship with the communications
team is so beneficial for so many ways.
So I work obviously very closely withthe property team looking at energy
efficiency, but on the flip side ofthat, that really isn't as impactful
(09:40):
if we don't have those communicationspecialists to actually tell that
story to our colleagues and customers.
So I think building those networksand relationships, not just externally
through that development program, butalso the, yeah, the colleagues internally,
and then having that, that supporthas just been absolutely fantastic.
Osbert (10:01):
You mentioned the, is it the, Head of Corporate Operations.
Libby (10:05):
Oh yeah, so he, his title is now Corporate Head of property
Osbert (10:09):
He came in, he had a really strong interest in sustainability
and that was like, you know, areal opportunity to work together.
What about other colleagues?
Wasn't that a case that there was lots ofother people interested in sustainability
and that was obvious at the start?
Or did it just come out whenyou started talking to them?
Libby (10:25):
Yeah, to be honest, when I started my position, I actually, I
think I'm usually quite an optimisticperson, but I started just thinking
that I'm going to come in, everyone'sgoing to find me really irritating.
It's a lot of change, you know, thingsare good as they are, but actually the
more conversations I have with people.
So when I first started, I just madea very strong effort to put calls
(10:46):
in with as many different people aspossible, to try and be present in
the office, just to try and catchdifferent, different colleagues, just
to, just to start conversations really.
And once you start having theseconversations with people, the
vast majority are very open toconversations about sustainability,
which I've found absolutely fantastic.
Something I've launchedsince starting at LHP is our
(11:06):
sustainability ambassador group.
So I wanted to have a platform thatwould allow these, It's particularly
passionate individuals, you know, thatreally have an interest in the topic to
come together monthly to talk about it.
I'll give them a bit moreinformation about what I'm up to.
We have external speakers comingin to ensure that our knowledge is
(11:27):
constantly being developed and that'sbeen a really, really popular group.
We get quite a good turnout everysingle month, quite a lot of
interest ideas being thrown in there.
But even if people don'twant to commit to that.
I've actually found that when I havea conversation with them, maybe it's
just because I work with such lovelypeople, but they're always very willing
to have that conversation and, you know,work with me to, to see what we can
(11:50):
do to improve things in terms of ESG.
Of course, not allcolleagues are like that.
You know, people that have worked forthe business for a long time, things,
you know, you know, what they're doingworks, but having those individuals
that aren't on your side is actuallyprobably just as helpful as having
others on your side because you learnmore about, okay, what's, what frictions
there, why don't you want to, youknow, try and change things or explore
(12:13):
how we can do things differently.
So those often aren't the mostfun conversations, but they're
probably the more useful ones.
Osbert (12:19):
So tell me more about that though, how did that go?
What were those conversations like?
Libby (12:23):
I think probably a lot of, not friction, because I think that's probably
the wrong word to say, but where I'vemaybe come up against some barriers.
One example could probably be withour green spaces I mentioned earlier.
We have a lot of green spaces at LHPand actually diversifying those and
trying to bring people on side as to whyexploring rewilding or looking at other
(12:48):
things that that we could do to reallytry and enhance those green spaces would
be beneficial can be quite difficult andthat's the same with our customers as
well but you do have to understand itso our customers pay a service charge
if we're leaving places wild it's almostlike what we're paying for kind of thing
so you've got to listen to to why you'rekind of having that that resistance I
(13:09):
guess so that that's definitely you One,one area that has been more challenging.
But then I think bringing in, you know,people like the Lincolnshire Wildlife
Trust to bring in their expertise.
I think going back and reviewingperhaps where we've tried rewilding
or, wildflower seed planting in thepast and assessing that, position
(13:30):
or site that we've selected.
So why didn't that work?
Was, did it have too muchfootfall in that area?
Is there a different, you know,area we can choose to focus on?
That's really helpful, butdefinitely that is one.
But as I say, we are gettingthere and the colleagues in
the asset team are fantastic.
They're, they're really helpfulin pushing that forward.
And I'd also say possiblyEV chargers as well.
(13:54):
EV chargers is quite a hot topic atthe minute in the housing sector.
So we have obviously our offices forinternal charging, but then we also
have quite a lot of say shelteredschemes, so apartments, flats,
things like that with big car parks.
So understanding how we can introduceThat with lots of legal implications, but
then we've also got customers asking ifthey can have them, which is brilliant.
(14:16):
So we want to progress that when we'vegot those on side, but actually the
different, as I said, legal implications,the infrastructural implications
of that is just quite challenging.
So I think when I'm having thesedifficult conversations with colleagues,
it's not so much that they point blank,disagree with what I'm trying to do.
It's the fact that it's verycomplex, and you have to consider
(14:38):
so many different things.
And when people are so busy just tryingto get on with their day job, which, you
know, colleagues across LHP, they're verybusy and do a fantastic job, when I'm
there knocking on their door asking toadd something else onto that, that's where
the challenges come in, and that's why Ihave to be understanding of those as well.
Osbert (14:55):
So, what learned from that process?
What are you doing differently thanyou would perhaps doing earlier on?
Libby (15:03):
I think I'm still definitely a work in progress.
As I said, I've definitely got a lotof learning and development to do,
but I think one thing when I initiallystarted at LHP, I would have maybe
suggested an idea and if one colleaguewas maybe not too welcoming of that,
I'd be like, okay, it doesn't matter.
It's fine.
You know better.
but now, I'm think, I thinkanyway I'm getting much better
(15:27):
at pushing back a bit more.
So okay, if one person saysthey're not keen on that idea or
it just wouldn't work, I'm moreopen to pushing back on that.
So okay, why wouldn't it work?
Can I go to other colleaguesand bring them in?
Do they have a different viewpoint?
And actually pushing why it's soimportant that we need to progress
things in terms of sustainability.
So whether that is whether that's reducingour waste to landfill, whether that's
(15:52):
working with the procurement team to lookat our suppliers and our supply chain.
It's having the courage to pushback a little bit more, even though
I do find it a bit uncomfortable.
I'm not someone that naturallyleans into kind of confrontation
or difficult conversations.
I'm finding that that's necessary whenyou're in a position like sustainability.
(16:13):
And I do think that's what I've learned.
I've learned to not take the first noas an answer, you know, to lean into it
a bit more and explore it a bit deeper.
Osbert (16:22):
that can be pretty challenging if you're getting knocked back , left
feeling, well, I don't know anythingor I don't, we can't make any progress.
How does that make you feel?
And how do you deal with theemotional side of being knocked back
Libby (16:32):
Yeah, I think having some particular colleagues across the
business, whether that's, as I'vementioned in the asset team, or, you
know, my line manager or other peoplewithin the culture team, having those,
those people is, is really helpful.
But then I also think having networksoutside of the business is really useful.
So as soon as I started in my position,I was looking to see if there was
(16:53):
any networking opportunities forindividuals in similar positions to me.
So I joined a sustainability forum, whichis for housing professionals within the
Humberside area and wider Yorkshire area.
And actually we go to the sessionsevery quarter, we have an agenda, we
have some topics and, you know, wetalk about maybe barriers we're facing.
(17:16):
And there hasn't been one meetingwhere I've gone to that saying,
you know, I'm struggling with this.
Every single time, other people willsay, oh, you know, put the hand up,
same, I am too, same here, like,what are we gonna do about that?
So, they don't always have the answer,but actually, having that soundboard
and those individuals who, you know, canrelate to kind of what I'm going through
(17:38):
and also say, oh, you know, same here.
I almost feel as though I'm notmissing a trick, if that makes sense.
You know, it's, we're all goingthrough the same thing, and being
able to bounce ideas off each other.
So, you know, some people say we've triedthat, or it didn't work, don't do that, or
we found this supply, they're excellent.
You should contact them to learn more.
so yeah, absolutely a network,even if it's just to have them as a
(18:00):
soundboard or just to know that otherpeople are struggling the same as you.
It sounds quite bad, butobviously we help each other too.
But as I said, knowing that you'renot missing something obvious and it's
something that we're all going through
Osbert (18:12):
Hmm.
Yeah.
Great.
And you mentioned the asset team,, you're part of being really helpful.
how does that relationship help youkeep going and do what you're doing?
Libby (18:20):
I think, do you know, it's maybe not the most, I don't know, complex
answer, but I just think having friendlyfaces, having very helpful individuals,
having people that are on your side.
And I'm not saying that other peopleacross the business aren't on my side,
everyone at LHP is absolutely fantasticthey're brilliant to work with, but
(18:41):
having those particular individualsthat have the same drive as you for a
particular topic is incredibly helpful.
So even if they aren't able to, youknow, perhaps change a situation
or help really move things along,just having them to speak to.
And as I said, just havinga friendly face to go to is.
incredibly useful.
And I think we may be underestimate thathaving these strong networks, not just
(19:05):
externally, like I've mentioned, butinternally as well it's so important.
Osbert (19:09):
Yeah.
That really resonates.
I think something we talk about quite alot on the podcast is the thing about,
you know, finding who are your, well,there's the collaborators, the people
you work with on a regular basis.
It sounds like there's someof them in the asset team.
Then you've got your allies who maybe a bit further away, but people
who can, you can call on if you needtheir support or they can be your
voice in the committee or whatever.
(19:29):
Then around after that, you've got thesupporters, the people who are ready
to get involved when the initiativecomes out they're happy to say,
yeah, that sounds like a good thing.
Libby (19:35):
It's good.
And I know that our, one of ourdirectors, so the director that I sit
beneath, he had that same conversationwith me, you know, he said, find your
people, find the people that will beour allies, that will back you, that
you can go to if you're having issues.
And I've found that that's been incrediblyuseful, whether that is, you know,
the sustainability ambassadors, theindividuals that I know are interested
(19:57):
in anyway, or perhaps people at thatmanagerial level that I know I've got that
close relationship with, and I know thatthey can help move things along if needed.
Osbert (20:07):
So looking, looking forward then.
So what are you working on now?
Or what are you going to beworking on next that you're most
excited about or looking forwardto really get into grips with?
Libby (20:17):
Yeah.
So, last year we became official adoptersof what they call the Sustainability
Reporting Standards for Social Housing.
So that is a reporting standard.
It is a framework created specificallyfor social housing alongside
banks and developers and other,you know, housing associations.
(20:38):
so we have signed up to that.
We released our first sustainabilityreport earlier this year.
So we have to report against that.
46 different criteria and it just ensuresthat we are being transparent with how
we're progressing on ESG and also ensuringthat we are kept accountable as well.
So, you know, this is howwe're doing last year.
How have we progressed?
So as I say, we released our firstreport for that earlier this year, and
(21:02):
we actually brought in a consultantto work alongside me for that process.
But this year I'm doing it on my own.
I've had the opportunity to really runwith that myself, which is really exciting
so I've been working with colleaguesall across the business to collect
those data sets and then it'll be Onmy shoulders to write that report craft
that narrative that really reflects howwe've progressed with sustainability
(21:25):
over the last year and i'm yeah, i'm veryexcited to have the opportunity to try
and bring storytelling to the front ofit as well, which I think is exciting.
So that's what I'm doing at the minute.
Busy nagging people for, for datasetsand trying to weave that together
into some form of, of story that wecan share with customers, colleagues,
(21:45):
our investors as well as stakeholders
Osbert (21:48):
That was just about to be my next question.
Who's the audience for this report?
Libby (21:50):
So it is a wide audience.
So we've got, it'll be sharedwith our colleagues, LHP, our
residents, our customers, andalso our supply chain as well.
So we've got a fantasticprocurement team at LHP.
We've done quite a lot of work in termsof sustainability and procurement.
So 20 percent of the, weightingwhen tenders come in so when we're
(22:14):
evaluating tender submissions, ifpeople want to win a contract with
LHP, 20 percent of that is on ESG.
So they have to answer particularquestions, whether that be to do with
carbon emissions, net zero, we'll changeit depending on what the contract's for.
so yeah, we've done alot, a lot around that.
So our supply chain as well.
I also want to make sure it's beingpushed out to them because it's
(22:37):
important that they know how we're doing.
Cause I really want it to be atwo way street with our suppliers.
I want them to help us, but Iwant to be able to help them
as well, wherever possible.
Osbert (22:45):
How are you finding that relationship with supplier?
Because I was speaking to I don'tthink it was housing, but it was in
construction, and they were sayingthey're really struggling to engage lot
of their suppliers on ESG issues becausethere's such a shortage of suppliers,
if they can't be bothered to fill inthat tender, they'll just go somewhere
else and know they can get the work.
(23:05):
So they were sort of struggling with that.
Is that your experience?
Libby (23:08):
Interesting, not so much.
I think a lot of our work has beenfocused on our larger suppliers.
So the contracts that arelarge enough that we've have
to do that tender competition.
So that's really where a lotof our work has taken place.
Something that we are looking to do.
Currently, so this is being picked up byfinance and the procurement team, as I
(23:31):
say, wonderful colleagues, they're runningwith this, which is fantastic and I
can't wait to see the, the outcome of it.
We also have quite a lotof smaller suppliers.
So, you know, people have put onour financial system, we maybe buy
small things of pens, pencils, we'vemaybe brought them in to deliver
training or something like that.
That's where we find it quite difficultto engage in the smaller levels and
(23:53):
we're trying to come up with a process tocollect data from those as well because
of course individually they're very smallsuppliers but added up together it's
a huge percentage but where a lot ofour engagement has taken place with the
larger suppliers I found the majority ofthe time they're absolutely excellent.
I think the only hurdles we doface is sometimes the answers
(24:14):
that come back to ESG you.
They are quite poor and that'snot the supplier's fault.
A lot of the suppliers may be alot smaller, they haven't got the
resource to, you know, have anapproach to calculating carbon
emissions yet or something like that.
But something that we've done asa business is introduce a supply
chain sustainability booklet.
So now, Every time we go out to doa tender, so there's a competition
(24:38):
launching, that booklet will be with it.
So that not only outlines whatsustainability means to LHP, what we
expect from our suppliers, I've alsolinked in a lot of free resources that I
just don't think businesses or a lot ofsmaller businesses are actually aware of.
Which, yeah, which I think is goingto be quite well received, sorry, but
(25:00):
yeah, so another example, I'll justtouch on it because it's relevant to
what you just said there, but we hadone supplier that didn't score too great
on the ESG or sustainability questions,but they still won the contract.
After winning that contract and they sawthat their scores, they were very keen
to actually sit down with me and have aconversation about how they can improve,
which I just thought was brilliant.
(25:21):
So I met them at the office, we wentout for lunch, we had a conversation,
I highlighted all the differentresources that as a, as a business
of their size that they can access.
and yeah, it was very well received.
I think most of the time suppliers thatwe work with are starting to recognize
that you're not going to keep winningbusiness unless this is really on
(25:41):
the top of top of your agenda, to behonest, and that you're prioritizing it.
So mostly a positive experience.
It's just hard to capture them all whenthere's so many suppliers of the business.
Osbert (25:52):
Is there a sort of regional network or organization that is
supporting SMEs to help them put inbetter tenders for these sorts of pieces
of work, or you can connect them with?
Libby (26:05):
Yeah, that's a good point.
So we have procurement frameworks.
So for large scale contracts andlarge scale projects, there's many
different procurement frameworksthat people can tap into.
So a lot of them are based around, energyefficiency work, so retrofit projects, so
they'll help when you wanted to put bidsin for say social housing decarbonisation
(26:26):
fund like I mentioned previously.
So if suppliers are signed up to oneof those, Frameworks, I imagine the
support that they could gain fromthere would, would be excellent.
I know that these frameworks are alwayspresent at the housing conferences.
I often attend a couple of those everyyear and they have huge, huge stands.
So I think they're getting, they'regetting bigger and bigger as
(26:47):
time goes on, which is great to
Osbert (26:49):
Well, let's hope they're supporting them on the
sustainability issue as well.
Libby (26:52):
Yeah.
Osbert (26:53):
Okay.
So let's change the pace a little bit.
What advice would you give to someonestarting out as a sustainability manager,
sort of straight from university or asimilar stage in their sustainability
career, perhaps they're finding it'sa bit of a struggle, maybe not landed
in an organization that's been soreceptive and so positive, perhaps.
What advice would you give?
Libby (27:15):
Yeah, it's a really good question.
I feel funny answering it when Istill feel as I'm learning myself, but
we're all always learning aren't we?
So.
I think one thing that I wouldreally emphasize is, there's
a couple of things actually.
So firstly, lean in to colleagues andthose wider networks across the business.
Whichever business you join, youwill likely have colleagues that are
(27:37):
absolute experts in what they do.
For sustainability, to besuccessful for you to be able to
embed sustainability across everysingle aspect of the business.
I think you have to have an understandingof what all areas of the business do.
So actually showing an interest inthe different service areas of that
business, finding those colleaguesthat are receptive to conversations
(27:57):
with you is absolutely key.
So find those internal networks, leaninto colleagues because the likelihood is
you'll find people that are very receptiveand very welcoming to those conversations.
And secondly, I'd also say that actuallyhaving those networks helps with this
one, but I'd say don't worry if you haveso many questions that can't be answered.
So something that really struck me andI had such terrible imposter syndrome
(28:21):
when I started my position was the factthat I had so many different questions.
And nobody could answer them.
And I'm like, am I missing something here?
Like, am I seriously just being stupid?
Because I was asking these questions,you know, okay, we have all these
properties, how are we going to fundthese, you know, retrofit measures?
You know, what, what heatingsystems are we looking at?
our scope three emissions, carbonemissions, fire gen, how are
(28:42):
we going to calculate those?
But actually having a lot of unansweredquestions is what I have learned.
make sustainability so exciting.
So the fact that there's all theseunanswered questions that nobody
knows the answer to, it actuallymakes it exciting and it makes you
want to keep driving things forward.
(29:03):
Keep learning, keep building networks,keep learning from the many many expects
that we've got across the housingsector but any sector in sustainability
there's always going to be peoplethat you can lean into so yeah it'd
be lean into those internal networksand colleagues and don't worry if
there's a lot of unanswered questions
Osbert (29:21):
Absolutely you're part of finding these solutions together,
that's why there's unanswered questionsbecause people need to come up with
those solutions and you can be part of
Libby (29:30):
Exactly.
So we're exploring at the minutesome infrared heating systems.
So we want to trial those and understandthe impact that they can have.
As an organisation we have a targetnot just to be net zero by 2050
but we also have The target for allhomes to have an energy performance
certificate of C or above by 2030.
So currently, around 85 percentof all properties are at C or
(29:54):
above, which we're very proud of.
The asset team have done a fantastic jobover the last, you know, 10 years really
driving, driving that statistic up.
But we then also have a lot ofour properties around 80, 85
percent are still on the gas grid.
So, you know, we're startingto explore alternatives.
So if heat pumps aren't perhapssuitable, what else can we look into?
So yeah, infrared is somethingreally exciting that we're trialing.
(30:17):
I mentioned it to some othercolleagues from, from different
housing associations and they said,oh, you know, we've heard about that.
We'd love to have a meeting with you.
So I've met with them to, toshare our experiences so far.
And yeah, just that knowledge sharing and.
helping each other as you go along.
I just feel like we're all, we allhave the same end game in mind.
So it's not so much competitive andpeople in housing are very receptive
(30:40):
to sharing their ups and the downsas well, which are probably the
most useful thing to hear about.
Osbert (30:46):
When we first spoke a couple of months back you said that you've
been listening to a lot of thepodcasts and found them quite helpful.
I'm just curious because, youknow, we've put out these podcasts
and they go out into the ether.
It's not like a conversation.
So I'm just sort of curious whatwere the issues or the areas that you
thought were particularly interestingand helpful for where you are?
Libby (31:07):
Yeah, I think one stood out to me in particular.
I can't remember the gentleman's name, butit was, they worked for Mott Macdonald.
You had a very detailed conversationabout engagement, and hearing
about how they were engaging.
I think they said they bring externalspeakers in and different, explore
different topic areas with colleaguesthat colleagues can, you know,
(31:29):
volunteer to attend and ask questions.
And for some reason that reallysparked something in me because
I thought, okay, if McDonald'sare doing that, they are huge.
I'm pretty sure aren't they multiinternational, they're massive.
And hearing that they were doing that,I'm finding it really yeah, successful.
Made me want to do that at LHP as well.
(31:49):
I was like, okay, why can't we do that?
So, as a knock on effect from that,I've started inviting local Charities
and not just local charities,but national charities as well
to come in and and deliver talks.
So we've had climate outreachon so i'm sure you've heard of
them to do with communication.
They were brilliant bumblebee andconservation trust as well that
(32:09):
people loved that in the business.
They absolutely loved it.
And I mean Even though it's not Thethings that I get the most excited about.
So I want to talk about the fantasticwork the property team are doing on
retrofitting, 700 properties or lookat my new strategy, even though that's
what I'd like them to be excited about.
Having these little things thatspark people's interest and spark
(32:31):
those conversations creates thatfoundational platform to build upon then.
So, you know, okay, you mightnot be interested in my strategy
yet, but I knew you found that.
Talk about bumblebees really interesting.
So how can we bridge that gap and startthat relationship and conversation?
Yeah, I found that one reallyinteresting and then more recently
(32:51):
I mentioned earlier talking aboutcourage so there was a podcast
that you spoke about about courage,but it actually came up at a Round
table , I attended as well previously.
I can't remember this lady's name.
And she said on that roundtable, you know, I think we were
discussing what do we need from.
sustainability leaders.
And she just said, pointblank, we need more courage.
(33:12):
We need to be more courageousin what we're asking for.
And again, that made me reflecton some of the projects I'm trying
to kickstart LHP and realize thatactually I'm not being unreasonable.
This is what the science is saying.
This is what we need to be doing.
This is what we have the responsibilityto be doing as a business.
And having her say that so, Idon't know, so openly, Just yeah,
(33:36):
sparked something in me again.
I was like, yeah, I do need tokeep pushing things forward.
I'm, I'm not crazy.
You know, if people findme irritating, that's fine.
There's a reason why I'm employedin the business within my position.
So I just need to, to keep going.
But no, I think your podcast inparticular, I was so excited when I
found it because I find it very easy torelate to, which I found really helpful.
(33:59):
So I think I've mentioned in inthis conversation previously, having
those external people that youcan speak to who are in a similar
position to you is so valuable.
That's what I think the podcast offers me.
and also, as I say, I'm still only twoand a bit, three years into my career.
I find it very insightful to listento other people through yourself.
(34:20):
I've met someone that workedfor channel four as well.
He was amazing to listen to.
So yeah, just, just learningand listening from other people.
It's fantastic.
When I found them, I thoughtI'm going to watch all of those.
You definitely did one on engagingcolleagues on your strategy and I found
that very helpful because at the time Iwas finalizing my ESG frameworks, I used
the pointers to, to help me as well.
(34:42):
And even if I don't always use thethings you say, I find it just very
insightful to see how other businesseshave maybe approached things or how
you've helped, you know, becauseobviously every organisation is different.
no, yeah, I love those as well, honestly.
I'm like, yeah, big fan.
Osbert (34:59):
Well, that's great.
It's good to know.
Out of curiosity, what otherpodcasts do you enjoy where you
might recommend to people as well?
Libby (35:06):
Let me get it up on my phone.
So one that I enjoy,Sustainability Uncovered.
It's by, is it Edie?
It's spelled E D I E.
and then there's also one called The NetZero Business Podcast by Gareth Kane.
So that I think has a similar feel toLeadership for Sustainability in the
(35:29):
sense that it has real life people in realpositions, talking very openly about, you
know, what's been going well or what'sI've actually been challenging them too.
So that again, I often find veryrelatable and the same as yours, I
find myself typing down lots of notes.
So if I'm driving, I'm like, HeySiri, make a note and it makes notes
for me as I'm, as I'm driving along.
(35:50):
So yeah, those are the, the other top two.
Osbert (35:52):
Great stuff.
Any final thoughts you'd liketo share before we wrap up?
Libby (35:59):
I think the only thing I can think of is if anyone is perhaps on
the early stage of their career, orthey're at university or college and
stuff, and they never did, you know,consider housing as an option, if you
are interested in sustainability, Iwould really just urge you to look into
it further, because it is an absolutelyfantastic sector to learn and develop from
(36:22):
so many different fantastic individualsand really explore so many different
avenues of sustainability, whether that issocial sustainability with our customers.
We also do fantastic work in termsof supporting customers with money,
support and bills and things likethat, or whether it is more the
environmental side of things, looking atproperties, green spaces, water waste.
(36:42):
I could, I could go on.
There's so many different areas that I'vehad the opportunity to, to learn about.
So yeah, I'd definitely say reconsiderhousing if it is, you know, sustainability
is something you're interested in.
Osbert (36:53):
Great.
That's a wonderful recommendation.
Thank you so much for being with us,Libby, it's been a wonderful conversation.
Libby (36:59):
Oh, thank you so much for having me it's a real, real pleasure.
Honestly, I never thought I'dbe invited, I'm just listening
most of the time, it's brilliant.
And that you have it.
Lots of inspiration and insightsfrom Libby's experience.
I'll just finished by picking out threethat I think are particularly helpful.
First the importance of building strongrelationships with colleagues across the
(37:19):
business, not just to have the supportof senior managers when you need it,
but also, so you can collaborate withcolleagues from different teams to take
for the sustainability agenda, much moreeffectively than you could do alone.
And two, the importance of a networkof peers across other organizations
who are working on similar challenges.
Not only can you call on them foradvice, but they can also help give you
(37:43):
the confidence to be persistent whenyou face resistance or uncertainty.
And three, the importance of learning fromdifficult conversations and situations.
Even though Libby clearly works in anorganization with supportive colleagues
and a great culture, it's stillhard work leading on sustainability.
But as she says, going into theseconversations to listen and understand
(38:05):
other people's perspectives andtheir reality, really helps you
work out how you can make progress,even when it's not so easy.
In the show notes, you'll find a linkto a written version of this podcast,
including links to some of the episodesthat Libby mentioned she'd found
particularly useful, alongside theother podcasts that she recommends.
To get future episodes as soon asthey are released, make sure to tap
(38:27):
“follow” in apple podcasts, Spotify,or your preferred podcast app.
If you're new to podcasts and arelistening to this on our website,
I really encourage you to take theleap and start using a podcast app.
Click the "follow" button on theaudio player on our website and
choose apple podcasts or Spotify.
Once in the app, remember to followLeadership for Sustainability
(38:49):
and perhaps the other twopodcasts that Libby recommends.
If you're a sustainabilitydirector or manager, who'd like
to share your experience withpeers who listen to Leadership for
Sustainability, just drop me an email.
That's osbert@realise.earth.
Keep up the good work and make sureto look off yourself because the
world needs effective sustainabilityleaders, now more than ever.
(39:14):
Bye for now.
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