September 29, 2025 • 29 mins
Episode: 00286 Released on September 29, 2025 Description: In this tenth installment of the Before You Leap series on Analyst Talk with Jason Elder, Jason and Randy explore how analysts can maximize training and certification opportunities. From foundational programs like FIAT to specialized certifications in cyber, financial, and analytic methods, Randy highlights practical strategies for navigating costs, avoiding “certification mills,” and building technical skills like SQL. The conversation also covers conferences, networking, and community engagement reminding analysts that the best career investment is often themselves. Congratulations to Randy Stickley on his election as Director of Training for the IALEIA DC Metro Chapter! His leadership and passion for education are helping analysts everywhere grow their skills and confidence. 🎧 Listen, share, and keep talking! [Note: Description produced by ChatGPT.] Get to know more about Randy by listening to his episode on Analyst Talk With Jason Elder: https://www.leapodcasts.com/e/atwje-randy-stickley-the-self-promoter/
Name Drops: Public Service Announcements: IACA Elections. Please vote. https://iacanet.memberclicks.net/candidates-25?servId=11337 Related Links: https://www.ialeia.org/ https://www.ialeia.org/training.php https://www.nw3c.org/UI/CourseCatalog.html https://osintacademy.com/ https://www.coursera.org/learn/sql-for-data-science Rethinking Thought https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DJ82G1PL/ref=tsm_1_fb_lk https://www.amazon.com/Intelligence-Secrets-Mark-M-Lowenthal/dp/1544325061 Association(s) Mentioned:
Vendor(s) Mentioned:
Contact: randall.c.stickleyii@gmail.com; https://www.linkedin.com/in/randall-stickley-36b0a5109/
Transcript: https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/wijv7fv2583qz2hx/BYL10_transcript.pdf
Podcast Writer:
Podcast Researcher:
Theme Song: Written and Recorded by The Rough & Tumble. Find more of their music at www.theroughandtumble.com.
Logo: Designed by Kyle McMullen. Please visit www.moderntype.com for any printable business forms and planners.
Podcast Email: leapodcasts@gmail.com
Podcast Webpage: www.leapodcasts.com
Podcast Twitter: @leapodcasts
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hi, I'm Kyle Stoker and I'm encouragingyou to vote in the I-A-C-A-A elections.
So make sure you go to the IACAwebsite and vote because our
membership has a voice in who leadsthe organization and you wanna
make sure that your voice is heard.
Thank you very much.
Welcome to Analyst Talk with Jason Elder.
It's like coffee with an analyst,or it could be whiskey with an
analyst reading a spreadsheet,linking crime events, identifying a
(00:23):
series, and getting the latest scoopon association news and training.
So please don't beat that analystand join us as we define the law
enforcement analysis profession.
One episode at a time.
How we doing?
Analysts, Jason Elder here with anotherLE, a podcast Deep Dive Before you leap
with Randy Stickley, the show on criticalThinking in law enforcement analysis.
(00:47):
And with me as always, is Randy Stickley.
Randy, how we doing?
I am good man.
How about you?
All right.
I am doing well.
It is September, the weather's breakinga little bit, getting into the fall
weather just going with the flow, I guess.
Yeah, no, I I was actually quitesurprised the last, I would say
(01:09):
two and a half, three weeks.
It's been in the eighties and ninetieshere, but it's not eighties and nineties
with 110, 115 degree heat index.
So I'm, yeah.
I'm darn near ready to crack out my coats.
Oh, man.
All right.
What are we talking about today?
Well, I'm gonna take a littledivergence from staunchly talking
(01:32):
about the critical thinking aspects.
There is a basis of criticalthinking that goes into this.
But one of the things that we've talkedabout before was in our situations in the
analytic profession, that sometimes we getinto analytic blunders, maybe indecision,
collaborative breakdowns or what have you.
You should go back and think on yourthinking and think on your training.
(01:56):
Well, I actually wanted to peelthe onion a little bit on that and
actually have folks remember there are.
More training opportunities out therethan maybe those they were afforded
before they were hired with an agency ororganization as opposed to after the fact.
One of the, one of the biggestthings, and again, we've talked
about this before, I have a. Prettyextensive training background.
(02:19):
I go and talk to different groups ofanalysts universities, and even at
conferences on the needs for trainingand to give critical thinking training.
So I think it's important for us todayto talk about how analysts should
capitalize on some of those trainingopportunities as we move forward.
Yeah, I, I agree.
(02:40):
Well, training's always near anddear to my heart when it comes
to law enforcement analysis.
I think it's, it's critical and there'sso much out there, and you talked
about experienced analysts, but Iknow it's really like fire hydrant
to the face for new analysts tryingto identify what the best training
(03:02):
is and getting the most return ontheir investment for time and effort.
Yeah,
absolutely.
And one of my biggest epitaphs thatI'll give analysts of all levels
is that no one's going to be yourbiggest cheerleader but yourself.
And ultimately one of the ways thatyou can really put some points on the
old scoreboard while you're being thatcheerleader is to go through training
(03:25):
and to kind of segue into that.
I wanted to make a little announcement.
I've talked about it on my LinkedInand a couple different social
media platforms, but I was actuallyrecently elected to the international
Association of Law EnforcementIntelligence Analyst, DC Metro Chapter
Board as their director of training,
so Oh, congratulations.
Yeah.
Thanks bud.
(03:45):
Thank you.
I appreciate that.
And one of the biggest things for me rightnow is to kind of enhance and diversify
some of those training opportunities for.
Folks that are in that DC Metro chapter.
I mean, when I took the interim position,we had another great director of
training for a while, and she came tome, she had a, a significant amount of
(04:06):
critical thought that went into this.
She said, Hey, I've got alot on my plate right now.
Can't really devote alot of bandwidth to this.
I know you have that background.
Would you mind stepping into thisrole until elections come up?
So it was admittedly justthroughout the summer.
And
I said, sure, I'd be happy to do it.
'cause I ultimately used mycritical thinking to kind of
take some stuff off of my plate.
(04:28):
'cause again, it's not a matterof willpower, it's a matter
of physics at that point.
So one of the things that I workedwith the former director on was
getting what we call the summer seriesAnalyst one oh one training off the
ground, effectively that summer series.
And for those that.
Having gone through it, it was to bebasically a scene setter, kind of an
(04:52):
appetizer for folks that wanted topursue their foundations of intelligence
analysis, training, or their fiat.
To ultimately get ready for theircriminal intelligence certified
analyst distinction from Eylea Global.
So we kind of mirrored the lessonplans that were set out with fiat
giving folks the ins and outs ofbeing an analyst in, I'd say hour
(05:14):
to hour and a half kind of bites.
Once a week throughout the summer coveringthings like what is the intel cycle?
What does it mean tobe an analytic thinker?
Types of thinking.
In indicators of change, things ofthose that nature to get folks ready
for future learning and certification.
But since then we touch, I'd sayhundreds of analysts in our chapter and
(05:38):
as well as beyond, we opened it up tothe folks on the national side as well.
But since election we've kind ofhad to pin out what do we want to do
in our positions as board members.
One of my big ones is, okay,we had success with this.
We haven't really done thiskind of webinar based training
of that magnitude before.
(05:58):
I'd like to keep the ball rolling.
So we're probably gonna start conductingthese analyst one oh ones on a
semi-annual basis, maybe twice a year.
But we have lots of new initiativeswhere we wanna bring in folks that
talk about trends, topics, and emergingthreats that may be pertinent to
some of our membership and beyond.
But then also have these opportunitiesand round tables where we kind
(06:20):
of do what we're doing here.
Not necessarily in a podcast format,but kind of having I akin to when
you go on YouTube and you have those.
I think it's Vanity Fair, whichis odd enough that I watched that.
But they have round tables oflike directors, writers, actors.
They just kind of have casual conversationback and forth about their craft,
how they do what they do, and so on.
(06:42):
So we want to bring stuff like thatas well as doing more outreach.
I think Jason, the first time youand I met, I was at a conference and.
We want to talk about that aswell, getting more consortiums,
educational outreach and et cetera.
Bringing in more of that kind of studentpiece so we can have more student members
who ultimately would, hopefully I shouldsay parlay their memberships into actual
(07:04):
memberships with Eylea so they couldbecome those folks that are connected
to that wider kind of professional pool.
So that's a, that's a lot.
So I recommend to anybody thathas, that's fairly new, take the
fiat, that's a very foundation'sbasic training it for analysts.
(07:25):
So I, I think there's a lot there.
To, to learn.
And then what is yourthoughts on the certification?
For analysts, because I feel I, I'vealways been a little bit on the fence
about certification, just becausethere's not just one certification.
There's so many different certifications,and is it good to just have one
(07:50):
or is it you gotta get bogged downif you're trying to get too many.
What is your thoughts
? I'm not gonna elaborate on the thoughts of having too many.
I try to limit how many letters areafter my name on an email line, but
I, I think it's important for folks.
I know it's kind of cra kindof, well, no kidding, Randy.
Mm-hmm.
To, for me to say, oh, I think it's greatto have certifications, especially in this
(08:13):
profession, just, and I should say, I hadto stop myself there for a second because
there's a couple ways to look at that.
You have certifications forcertification name only.
In this profession, which it's greatfor folks to have PMPs and whatnot.
Not saying PMPs aren't important, but ifyou're doing day-to-day analytic work and
(08:35):
dealing with law enforcement, military,other types of federal officials and what
have you, it behooves you to have more ofthose credentials that back you, that say,
I know the methodology inside and out.
I can tell you the intel cycle, butI could also tell you how that intel
cycle applies to every facet ofthis project that we've worked on.
(08:59):
'cause I think one of the things thatmany analysts, and I actually had this
conversation with one of my analystshere recently was we worked on this
project and the conversation piece cameup of, well, we won't have to, it's
not like we're gonna have to testify.
And it's like.
Oh, you really think that, andyou could have heard a pin drop.
It's like, wait, what?
So when you get into that testimonialpiece, if you're brought into court,
(09:23):
it looks better that you're theexpert on that analytic component
as opposed to, well, I've got 18certifications in other fields.
Okay, but you're a, you're acrime analyst, intelligence
analyst, analytic professional.
Where's your credentials on this?
It adds that level ofprofessionalism, it adds that
(09:44):
level of expertise and experience.
But that's not to say that you stopat just the cica or the criminal
intelligence one that I just referenced.
There's a myriad of them out there, andthis is one of those times where I'll
say relate it back to critical thinking.
It would behoove any analyst, anyanalyst, supervisor, manager, or any
(10:04):
law enforcement executive above that.
To pay attention to.
And there's this idea in thecertification world, you have
folks that are true certificationhouses for professionals, for the
practitioners, but then you have others.
It's like, okay, you pay $3,000 for thelearning materials, $2,000 for the pretest
(10:27):
or the test the kind of sample test.
And then $5,000 for thecertification once you get it.
That's, that's a lot of money.
And a lot of those folks theyget the pejorative view of
being a certification mill.
You pay enough money.
Anyone can have that distinction.
We, we really wanna be careful of that.
So it would behoove folks to readbetween the lines and pay attention
(10:50):
to certifications that matter to them.
For example I have my Zika, butthen I also have certifications
in like cyber intelligence,which relates to open source.
I think there's a cyber investigatorone that I have under my nameplate,
and then I have an economic andforensics kind of background.
That's purely because a lot of thecase work and material that I've worked
(11:12):
with in the past had a nexus to money.
I mean, that's kind of theshocker of the century, right?
Crime has a nexus to money.
So it behooved me to have thatfinancial certification as well.
So maybe stick to stuff that'sin your area or your topic load.
That's another area to look at.
But pay close attention to some of thoseones where it's like, okay, you're,
(11:33):
you're gonna pay to play, you're gonnapay to have it, that kind of thing.
Yeah.
And I, and I do feel that,they're not all certifications.
Have the same weight.
They're not all built the same.
Mm-hmm.
And you're not gonna get the,the same thing out of them.
(11:53):
I would encourage analysts, andthis goes for training, not just for
certification, just all training islook for opportunities in the training.
Where it's hands on or it's technical orit's beyond just a talking head lecture.
I know I, anybody that listens to mypodcast regularly are probably tired of me
(12:16):
, saying that because I'm such a, that'sone of my soapbox, but I think that.
One of the just one of the pitfallsI think for law enforcement analysis
training is this idea that, liketraining, you go, you fill a room and
it's a lecture, and you get a little bitof awareness, you get some networking,
(12:36):
and then you, you come home and I'm notexactly sure what you're coming home with.
Y you, you nailed it on the head.
And that technical componentis one of the things that.
I would increasingly harp on folksto go for, and this is not me
talking as a director of training.
This is me talking as theanalytic professional.
Now, one of the things that I had tokind of lock in on with my current
(13:02):
role is sql script writing andcode writing, and I told myself for
years, I will not get into that.
I, I found that so mindnumbing and repetitive.
But then it became a necessity withwhat our team currently works on.
We have a couple folks that are fantasticscript writers and automators, but
(13:24):
with the, the volume that we work init, it almost behooved to have that
kind of person in reserves that it'slike, oh crap, those two guys are down.
Hey, batter three, you.
So I pursued some extra learning and it'snot a certification per se, it's just a
graduate certificate, which is completelydifferent than getting a certification,
but it's a graduate certificate in SQL andhow to use it for data science purposes.
(13:50):
And I'll tell you, I find it fascinatingand it's a skill that I can use,
but it was one that was out ofnecessity and out of the greater good
and the need for our team as well.
Yeah.
I think that's what's tough thoughtoo, and I, 'cause I remember looking
back on the training that I tookover my decade as an analyst, of
(14:12):
course this was right after nine 11.
So the training was, fastand furious type of thing.
There's so much training in the aughts.
But there was, there wassome that was tough,.
I remember taking likea data recovery mm-hmm.
Class, and I was like, well, Idon't know if the future will.
(14:34):
Present me with an opportunityto get into computer forensics.
And it, ultimately didn't, butat the time I didn't know that.
It was just something that I was like,okay, I'm gonna take this, learn some
technical skills , maybe this is gonnabe a return, good return on investment.
Maybe it's not.
And I think in hindsight, it.
It turned out not to be, but it'sreally difficult to predict the future.
(14:58):
Oh God, no.
I mean for God's sakes, I'm ananalyst, not a fortune teller man.
Yeah.
But a rip on Bones McCoy.
Right.
But
mm-hmm
You, you never can tell, and I alwaystell folks when I was a trainer and then
when I go still speak at colleges andconferences, that you're never worse off
for learning a new nugget of information.
(15:18):
Especially whenever you're in a holisticenvironment such as the analytic
profession, you never know when inyour case, Jason, when that digital
forensics aspect is going to come up.
Which in a world where everything is dataon data on data, you know it's probably
paying off in dividends for you somewhere.
(15:39):
You know.
No, I, I mean it's it is just,some are more than others.
Right.
And you, you just don't know.
And I, I do feel that because there's,there's so much different training out
there and so many different options.
Right.
You talked about the money aspect of it.
I mean, most of the time a lot of agenciesdon't have money to, to throw out that,
(16:03):
or maybe the individual analyst wants tospend their own money to do some of these
trainings and so it's, it's, I think it'sa lot to put on the analyst because it
is a little bit of the wild, wild west.
Mm-hmm.
Because there's not just this like,oh, it's not like the bar exam.
For instance, or any of the othermaybe national certifications for like
(16:26):
accountants or, or whatever it is.
Like there's not one recipe that I couldsay, okay, go, go do these 25 trainings
and then you're gonna be set for life.
Yeah.
And that, that's a really good segueto another point that I had is.
By no means am I going to bethe end all, be all on every
(16:48):
training that is available.
That's, that's almost maddening in today'sworld because there's hundreds if not
thousands of folks solo one man, mom,and pop little training groups or large
collectives that do this type of training.
But I think it's importantfor folks to understand,
particularly our analysts that.
They understand there's a lot outthere and that some of it is low to
(17:11):
no cost when it comes to attending,getting those maybe continuing education
credits or building up those hoursof training to pursue one of those
certifications that we were talking about.
Again, sitting in the role that I do withthe DC Metro chapter, I'd be remiss to
talk about Eylea, Eylea in and of itself.
(17:33):
They have multiple training opportunities,different types of webinars, different
types of speakers and engagements.
I, I actually, another hat that I wearis I still work with the what they call
the emerging professionals group, kindof acting as their senior advisor on.
Basically being the gray beard,which I was kind of annoyed when
(17:54):
I was told I was gonna be the graybeard 'cause I'm not that old.
But they have great lunchand learn opportunities.
I've spoke at one of 'em or spoken.
There's my West VirginianEnglish coming out.
I've spoken at a couple of those where.
I was talking to a group ofhungry eager analysts that wanted
to learn and That's fantastic.
Mostly newer folks to the profession.
(18:15):
Mm-hmm.
But beyond that, they have thingslike fiat, the foundations of Intel
analysis training that we Jasontalked about and I talked about.
You have 40 hours of back tobasics, here's exactly what
this profession looks like.
And when you talk about Fiats, forexample, there's another firm that
teaches the very similar Fiat,which is NW three C. The folks that
(18:38):
I used to be employed with, theyhave a, a, a slew of educational
opportunities and that are free.
For law enforcement professionalsacross the nation that cover
everything from financial crimes,high tech crimes, prosecutorial.
If anybody wants to dip their toeinto the lawyer pool, God help you.
(18:58):
Then also the intel spot, which iswhere I spent a lot of my time helping
develop that program, get it going.
They had their fiat kind of operatingin lockstep with FI or with EY E'S Fiat.
But then they took it a stepfurther and started teaching
courses on analytic writing,strategic analysis, link analysis.
(19:19):
I actually still know afew folks that work there.
They actually have one now on kind oflike analytic methodology and thinking.
So highly encourage folks if you havethose law enforcement credentials
to pursue that avenue as well.
Another great opportunityor series of opportunities.
The Heatherington group, CynthiaHeatherington has a bunch of those
types of online learning module.
(19:41):
She actually has a endeavor that shehas that is called the OSI Academy.
I was actually.
Privilege to go throughthat endeavor as well.
That has grown into its its own kindof monolith of open source kind of
investigation techniques and education.
Mm-hmm.
But another one that's a sleeper,I think many folks don't pay too
much attention to is Coursera.
(20:02):
And this is not me talkingwith an endorsement.
I'm not wearing a Coursera polo on this
one,
but this is one where there isan amount of cost to it because.
I think you pay like 40 bucks a monthfor a subscription, which again, yeah,
there's that monetary concept, but $40to an agency for a year might be doable.
(20:23):
Mm-hmm.
And if not the analyst prop mayencumber some of that cost, but it's
also cancelable at any point in time.
But that's actually where Igot my sql graduation credit.
And I did it through uc, Davis, and it wasa fantastic, it was kind of self-paced.
They have all those lessons there for you.
It was hands-on.
I actually was able to write some scriptsand write code as opposed to have a
(20:46):
learning professional talking to me frommy magic computer that sits on my desk.
So I highly encourage folks to do thosetypes of opportunities simply because they
show you, as I said earlier, new trends,tactics, or skills, and those skills.
Remember I said the the biggestcheerleader for yourself, the
analyst is going to be yourself.
(21:07):
But that marketability, if you're ananalyst that starts out in one shop
and you have an opportunity to move toanother shop, or move to another agency
or organization that sets you apart.
You may have folks that have thoseskills, but do they have the analytic
background combined with that technicalbackground as well, or whatever that
particular topic or area of expertise thatyou're pursuing through your education.
(21:32):
But if you're staying within your agencydepending on how large they are, and it
should be completely regardless of thesize of the agency, of the organization,
but there is that promotional aspect.
You took the initiative, youwent through this training.
Demonstrated dedication to the craft andso on, so that you know for yourself,
you may actually have a distinctionfrom going from the journeyman analyst
(21:55):
to let's say, Intel Analyst one,which is fantastic for some folks.
You bump up and if that's partof your career objectives,
your trajectory wholeheartedly,that's the way to go about it.
But I would say one other thing,and this, and I referenced this
earlier as well, conferences.
Many people see conferences asopportunities just to get away
(22:16):
from the office for a little bit.
Not really a vacation because you'restill there doing work and partnering
with folks and discussing work.
But it's a great opportunity for learning.
I've been to many a conference inmy time and that's actually how
you and I kind of got connectedthrough all of our conversations.
Jason was, I think itwas what, IA and Chicago?
(22:36):
Yes, I think so.
Yeah.
I, I believe so.
And.
All of those trainings.
I mean, they're, they're crafted byprofessionals for professionals for the
sake of continuing education and all ofthose aspects that I just talked about.
But it's not just the trainingthat comes into play here.
Yes, it shows initiative.
Yes, you're representing your agency,but you're representing yourself.
(22:59):
And when you represent yourself, you'rebuilding greater potential for those
partnerships, for that collaborativeeffort, for that networking.
I'm all about the networking.
I love building contacts, liaisons,and friends across the nation because
you never know when you're gonna need.
Assistance from insert organization here.
It's al it always behoovesyou to make a contact.
(23:21):
Let's say you meet John Smith fromTexas who has a gang and narcotics
aspect, part of their kind of Rolodexof their area of responsibility.
You're running into something that mayhave run along the southwest border.
It's.
Now, if only I met somebody at oneof these conferences that covers
this, I know I'll pick up the phone.
Well, I'll pick up the phone.
I'll get on my keyboard and writethe email and ask John, Hey,
(23:45):
does he have anything on this?
So it builds that larger analyticcommunity, and you're gonna
learn through that as well.
Everything's a learningopportunity in my eyes.
Maybe that's what makes mesuch a a fervent educator.
I'm always trying to learnsomething new and I learn stuff
every day by talking with folks.
So I think that gives youthat opportunity as well.
But even if you're not attendingas a traditional attendee,
(24:09):
there are opportunities atthese conferences to speak.
And actually get up on the podium andshare some of the stuff that you've
done, or maybe there's an alternativeview or technique that you work with
that maybe the other thousands ofagencies that you know could potentially
attend these conferences, may not.
So it's a great opportunityfor you to speak for yourself.
(24:29):
As well as demonstrate all of thosecredentials and all of that fine education
that you, the analysts have gone throughthroughout your career, and demonstrate
that prowess, which ultimately lendsitself to further education because people
are gonna come to you with questionsor they're gonna say, I actually have a
different view of that, which is greatbecause guess what you're learning still.
(24:50):
And that's, and I find that allsuch a cool symbiotic living
process as part of that whole kindof analytic learning endeavor.
You gray beards may want you to pick upthe phone and talk to them, so I love it.
So you might, you just, you mightneed to know your audience, whether
you're texting keyboarding or calling.
(25:13):
Fair point.
So, so the one thing I would addto all of this, and maybe you could
make an argument that's not, thisisn't quite training, but look for.
Opportunities within your city.
Mm-hmm.
For networking andeducational experiences.
Some examples are if a department inyour city is having an open house.
(25:39):
Maybe waterworks or planning ishaving some kind of open house.
That might be a great opportunityto go in there and meet those folks
and, 'cause you never know whenyou might need them in a pinch.
I would say one of the thingsthat I did while back was I was
part of the Citizens Fire Academy.
(26:01):
Which I was a great experience for me.
So I think, and maybe if you're.
An analyst that's in, that's isassigned to a particular jurisdiction.
Mm-hmm.
A lot of, a lot of people always talkon the podcast about getting out from
under your desk and going out and seeingthe world and seeing that jurisdiction.
(26:23):
So if there's community eventsor if there's something important
going on in that particular area,j take that opportunity to go out
and just observe it for yourself.
Yeah,
and I, and I'll say that to kindof compound your point many of us
in this profession you're I, I'veheard you talk at conferences,
(26:44):
I've heard you speak in person.
I know you make the joke of I'm not muchof a public speaker and there you go.
Knocking it out of the park.
I would almost say you and I are kindof weird black sheep to the profession
because we don't mind putting ourselvesout there talking to folks, learning
and kind of building that conversation.
You have, by and large, a largerpercentage of folks in this profession
(27:05):
who they don't have that confidence.
And we've talked about this beforeabout how critical thinking builds
that confidence, but just seeing thatyou have other folks that are doing
effectively the same voodoo that youdo so well, are getting up there and
speaking, getting up there, puttingthemselves, exposing themselves within
reason to this wider analytic collective.
(27:28):
It almost builds kind of thatconfidence in you to say, well, maybe
I should take a run at this next year.
Or maybe, like you said, put myselfout there if another agency within
my jurisdiction or in a neighboringjurisdiction is having a symposium or
having an open house to put the best footforward and start building those bridges,
like I said, I, I see value in all of it.
(27:49):
I think it's all a, a worthwhileendeavor just to put yourself out there
and be part of those types of events.
Very good.
And we're, we're gonna put linksto all the information that Randy
and I have talked about today.
So be sure to check out the shownotes for additional information.
All right, Randy, let's justsum up this like we always do.
(28:10):
Before you leap, you should what?
Before you leap, you should rememberyour training opportunities.
Nice, nice.
And just real quick before we saygoodbye, Superman or Fantastic four.
Ooh,
diehard Marvel guy here.
You're, you're testing me Uhhuh, butI'm gonna say Superman was pretty good.
(28:33):
All right.
All right.
That's interesting.
I did like Fantastic four better thanSuperman, but that's that, that's gonna
have to be a conversation offline.
Absolutely.
All right, Randy.
Until next time, think before you leap.
Yep.
Thanks
for having me, Jason.
Thank you for making it tothe end of another episode of
(28:54):
Analyst Talk with Jason Elder.
You can show your support by sharingthis and other episodes found
on our website@www.podcasts.com.
If you have a topic you would likeus to cover or have a suggestion for
our next guest, please send us anemail at Elliot podcasts@gmail.com.
Till next time, analysts, keep talking.
Hi, I'm Kyle Stoker and I'm encouragingyou to vote in the I-A-C-A-A elections.
So make sure you go to the IACAwebsite and vote because our
membership has a voice in who leadsthe organization and you wanna
make sure that your voice is heard.
Thank you very much.
Welcome to Analyst Talk with Jason Elder.
It's like coffee with an analyst,or it could be whiskey with an
analyst reading a spreadsheet,linking crime events, identifying a
(00:23):
series, and getting the latest scoopon association news and training.
So please don't beat that analystand join us as we define the law
enforcement analysis profession.
One episode at a time.
How we doing?
Analysts, Jason Elder here with anotherLE, a podcast Deep Dive Before you leap
with Randy Stickley, the show on criticalThinking in law enforcement analysis.
(00:47):
And with me as always, is Randy Stickley.
Randy, how we doing?
I am good man.
How about you?
All right.
I am doing well.
It is September, the weather's breakinga little bit, getting into the fall
weather just going with the flow, I guess.
Yeah, no, I I was actually quitesurprised the last, I would say
(01:09):
two and a half, three weeks.
It's been in the eighties and ninetieshere, but it's not eighties and nineties
with 110, 115 degree heat index.
So I'm, yeah.
I'm darn near ready to crack out my coats.
Oh, man.
All right.
What are we talking about today?
Well, I'm gonna take a littledivergence from staunchly talking
(01:32):
about the critical thinking aspects.
There is a basis of criticalthinking that goes into this.
But one of the things that we've talkedabout before was in our situations in the
analytic profession, that sometimes we getinto analytic blunders, maybe indecision,
collaborative breakdowns or what have you.
You should go back and think on yourthinking and think on your training.
(01:56):
Well, I actually wanted to peelthe onion a little bit on that and
actually have folks remember there are.
More training opportunities out therethan maybe those they were afforded
before they were hired with an agency ororganization as opposed to after the fact.
One of the, one of the biggestthings, and again, we've talked
about this before, I have a. Prettyextensive training background.
(02:19):
I go and talk to different groups ofanalysts universities, and even at
conferences on the needs for trainingand to give critical thinking training.
So I think it's important for us todayto talk about how analysts should
capitalize on some of those trainingopportunities as we move forward.
Yeah, I, I agree.
(02:40):
Well, training's always near anddear to my heart when it comes
to law enforcement analysis.
I think it's, it's critical and there'sso much out there, and you talked
about experienced analysts, but Iknow it's really like fire hydrant
to the face for new analysts tryingto identify what the best training
(03:02):
is and getting the most return ontheir investment for time and effort.
Yeah,
absolutely.
And one of my biggest epitaphs thatI'll give analysts of all levels
is that no one's going to be yourbiggest cheerleader but yourself.
And ultimately one of the ways thatyou can really put some points on the
old scoreboard while you're being thatcheerleader is to go through training
(03:25):
and to kind of segue into that.
I wanted to make a little announcement.
I've talked about it on my LinkedInand a couple different social
media platforms, but I was actuallyrecently elected to the international
Association of Law EnforcementIntelligence Analyst, DC Metro Chapter
Board as their director of training,
so Oh, congratulations.
Yeah.
Thanks bud.
(03:45):
Thank you.
I appreciate that.
And one of the biggest things for me rightnow is to kind of enhance and diversify
some of those training opportunities for.
Folks that are in that DC Metro chapter.
I mean, when I took the interim position,we had another great director of
training for a while, and she came tome, she had a, a significant amount of
(04:06):
critical thought that went into this.
She said, Hey, I've got alot on my plate right now.
Can't really devote alot of bandwidth to this.
I know you have that background.
Would you mind stepping into thisrole until elections come up?
So it was admittedly justthroughout the summer.
And
I said, sure, I'd be happy to do it.
'cause I ultimately used mycritical thinking to kind of
take some stuff off of my plate.
(04:28):
'cause again, it's not a matterof willpower, it's a matter
of physics at that point.
So one of the things that I workedwith the former director on was
getting what we call the summer seriesAnalyst one oh one training off the
ground, effectively that summer series.
And for those that.
Having gone through it, it was to bebasically a scene setter, kind of an
(04:52):
appetizer for folks that wanted topursue their foundations of intelligence
analysis, training, or their fiat.
To ultimately get ready for theircriminal intelligence certified
analyst distinction from Eylea Global.
So we kind of mirrored the lessonplans that were set out with fiat
giving folks the ins and outs ofbeing an analyst in, I'd say hour
(05:14):
to hour and a half kind of bites.
Once a week throughout the summer coveringthings like what is the intel cycle?
What does it mean tobe an analytic thinker?
Types of thinking.
In indicators of change, things ofthose that nature to get folks ready
for future learning and certification.
But since then we touch, I'd sayhundreds of analysts in our chapter and
(05:38):
as well as beyond, we opened it up tothe folks on the national side as well.
But since election we've kind ofhad to pin out what do we want to do
in our positions as board members.
One of my big ones is, okay,we had success with this.
We haven't really done thiskind of webinar based training
of that magnitude before.
(05:58):
I'd like to keep the ball rolling.
So we're probably gonna start conductingthese analyst one oh ones on a
semi-annual basis, maybe twice a year.
But we have lots of new initiativeswhere we wanna bring in folks that
talk about trends, topics, and emergingthreats that may be pertinent to
some of our membership and beyond.
But then also have these opportunitiesand round tables where we kind
(06:20):
of do what we're doing here.
Not necessarily in a podcast format,but kind of having I akin to when
you go on YouTube and you have those.
I think it's Vanity Fair, whichis odd enough that I watched that.
But they have round tables oflike directors, writers, actors.
They just kind of have casual conversationback and forth about their craft,
how they do what they do, and so on.
(06:42):
So we want to bring stuff like thatas well as doing more outreach.
I think Jason, the first time youand I met, I was at a conference and.
We want to talk about that aswell, getting more consortiums,
educational outreach and et cetera.
Bringing in more of that kind of studentpiece so we can have more student members
who ultimately would, hopefully I shouldsay parlay their memberships into actual
(07:04):
memberships with Eylea so they couldbecome those folks that are connected
to that wider kind of professional pool.
So that's a, that's a lot.
So I recommend to anybody thathas, that's fairly new, take the
fiat, that's a very foundation'sbasic training it for analysts.
(07:25):
So I, I think there's a lot there.
To, to learn.
And then what is yourthoughts on the certification?
For analysts, because I feel I, I'vealways been a little bit on the fence
about certification, just becausethere's not just one certification.
There's so many different certifications,and is it good to just have one
(07:50):
or is it you gotta get bogged downif you're trying to get too many.
What is your thoughts
? I'm not gonna elaborate on the thoughts of having too many.
I try to limit how many letters areafter my name on an email line, but
I, I think it's important for folks.
I know it's kind of cra kindof, well, no kidding, Randy.
Mm-hmm.
To, for me to say, oh, I think it's greatto have certifications, especially in this
(08:13):
profession, just, and I should say, I hadto stop myself there for a second because
there's a couple ways to look at that.
You have certifications forcertification name only.
In this profession, which it's greatfor folks to have PMPs and whatnot.
Not saying PMPs aren't important, but ifyou're doing day-to-day analytic work and
(08:35):
dealing with law enforcement, military,other types of federal officials and what
have you, it behooves you to have more ofthose credentials that back you, that say,
I know the methodology inside and out.
I can tell you the intel cycle, butI could also tell you how that intel
cycle applies to every facet ofthis project that we've worked on.
(08:59):
'cause I think one of the things thatmany analysts, and I actually had this
conversation with one of my analystshere recently was we worked on this
project and the conversation piece cameup of, well, we won't have to, it's
not like we're gonna have to testify.
And it's like.
Oh, you really think that, andyou could have heard a pin drop.
It's like, wait, what?
So when you get into that testimonialpiece, if you're brought into court,
(09:23):
it looks better that you're theexpert on that analytic component
as opposed to, well, I've got 18certifications in other fields.
Okay, but you're a, you're acrime analyst, intelligence
analyst, analytic professional.
Where's your credentials on this?
It adds that level ofprofessionalism, it adds that
(09:44):
level of expertise and experience.
But that's not to say that you stopat just the cica or the criminal
intelligence one that I just referenced.
There's a myriad of them out there, andthis is one of those times where I'll
say relate it back to critical thinking.
It would behoove any analyst, anyanalyst, supervisor, manager, or any
(10:04):
law enforcement executive above that.
To pay attention to.
And there's this idea in thecertification world, you have
folks that are true certificationhouses for professionals, for the
practitioners, but then you have others.
It's like, okay, you pay $3,000 for thelearning materials, $2,000 for the pretest
(10:27):
or the test the kind of sample test.
And then $5,000 for thecertification once you get it.
That's, that's a lot of money.
And a lot of those folks theyget the pejorative view of
being a certification mill.
You pay enough money.
Anyone can have that distinction.
We, we really wanna be careful of that.
So it would behoove folks to readbetween the lines and pay attention
(10:50):
to certifications that matter to them.
For example I have my Zika, butthen I also have certifications
in like cyber intelligence,which relates to open source.
I think there's a cyber investigatorone that I have under my nameplate,
and then I have an economic andforensics kind of background.
That's purely because a lot of thecase work and material that I've worked
(11:12):
with in the past had a nexus to money.
I mean, that's kind of theshocker of the century, right?
Crime has a nexus to money.
So it behooved me to have thatfinancial certification as well.
So maybe stick to stuff that'sin your area or your topic load.
That's another area to look at.
But pay close attention to some of thoseones where it's like, okay, you're,
(11:33):
you're gonna pay to play, you're gonnapay to have it, that kind of thing.
Yeah.
And I, and I do feel that,they're not all certifications.
Have the same weight.
They're not all built the same.
Mm-hmm.
And you're not gonna get the,the same thing out of them.
(11:53):
I would encourage analysts, andthis goes for training, not just for
certification, just all training islook for opportunities in the training.
Where it's hands on or it's technical orit's beyond just a talking head lecture.
I know I, anybody that listens to mypodcast regularly are probably tired of me
(12:16):
, saying that because I'm such a, that'sone of my soapbox, but I think that.
One of the just one of the pitfallsI think for law enforcement analysis
training is this idea that, liketraining, you go, you fill a room and
it's a lecture, and you get a little bitof awareness, you get some networking,
(12:36):
and then you, you come home and I'm notexactly sure what you're coming home with.
Y you, you nailed it on the head.
And that technical componentis one of the things that.
I would increasingly harp on folksto go for, and this is not me
talking as a director of training.
This is me talking as theanalytic professional.
Now, one of the things that I had tokind of lock in on with my current
(13:02):
role is sql script writing andcode writing, and I told myself for
years, I will not get into that.
I, I found that so mindnumbing and repetitive.
But then it became a necessity withwhat our team currently works on.
We have a couple folks that are fantasticscript writers and automators, but
(13:24):
with the, the volume that we work init, it almost behooved to have that
kind of person in reserves that it'slike, oh crap, those two guys are down.
Hey, batter three, you.
So I pursued some extra learning and it'snot a certification per se, it's just a
graduate certificate, which is completelydifferent than getting a certification,
but it's a graduate certificate in SQL andhow to use it for data science purposes.
(13:50):
And I'll tell you, I find it fascinatingand it's a skill that I can use,
but it was one that was out ofnecessity and out of the greater good
and the need for our team as well.
Yeah.
I think that's what's tough thoughtoo, and I, 'cause I remember looking
back on the training that I tookover my decade as an analyst, of
(14:12):
course this was right after nine 11.
So the training was, fastand furious type of thing.
There's so much training in the aughts.
But there was, there wassome that was tough,.
I remember taking likea data recovery mm-hmm.
Class, and I was like, well, Idon't know if the future will.
(14:34):
Present me with an opportunityto get into computer forensics.
And it, ultimately didn't, butat the time I didn't know that.
It was just something that I was like,okay, I'm gonna take this, learn some
technical skills , maybe this is gonnabe a return, good return on investment.
Maybe it's not.
And I think in hindsight, it.
It turned out not to be, but it'sreally difficult to predict the future.
(14:58):
Oh God, no.
I mean for God's sakes, I'm ananalyst, not a fortune teller man.
Yeah.
But a rip on Bones McCoy.
Right.
But
mm-hmm
You, you never can tell, and I alwaystell folks when I was a trainer and then
when I go still speak at colleges andconferences, that you're never worse off
for learning a new nugget of information.
(15:18):
Especially whenever you're in a holisticenvironment such as the analytic
profession, you never know when inyour case, Jason, when that digital
forensics aspect is going to come up.
Which in a world where everything is dataon data on data, you know it's probably
paying off in dividends for you somewhere.
(15:39):
You know.
No, I, I mean it's it is just,some are more than others.
Right.
And you, you just don't know.
And I, I do feel that because there's,there's so much different training out
there and so many different options.
Right.
You talked about the money aspect of it.
I mean, most of the time a lot of agenciesdon't have money to, to throw out that,
(16:03):
or maybe the individual analyst wants tospend their own money to do some of these
trainings and so it's, it's, I think it'sa lot to put on the analyst because it
is a little bit of the wild, wild west.
Mm-hmm.
Because there's not just this like,oh, it's not like the bar exam.
For instance, or any of the othermaybe national certifications for like
(16:26):
accountants or, or whatever it is.
Like there's not one recipe that I couldsay, okay, go, go do these 25 trainings
and then you're gonna be set for life.
Yeah.
And that, that's a really good segueto another point that I had is.
By no means am I going to bethe end all, be all on every
(16:48):
training that is available.
That's, that's almost maddening in today'sworld because there's hundreds if not
thousands of folks solo one man, mom,and pop little training groups or large
collectives that do this type of training.
But I think it's importantfor folks to understand,
particularly our analysts that.
They understand there's a lot outthere and that some of it is low to
(17:11):
no cost when it comes to attending,getting those maybe continuing education
credits or building up those hoursof training to pursue one of those
certifications that we were talking about.
Again, sitting in the role that I do withthe DC Metro chapter, I'd be remiss to
talk about Eylea, Eylea in and of itself.
(17:33):
They have multiple training opportunities,different types of webinars, different
types of speakers and engagements.
I, I actually, another hat that I wearis I still work with the what they call
the emerging professionals group, kindof acting as their senior advisor on.
Basically being the gray beard,which I was kind of annoyed when
(17:54):
I was told I was gonna be the graybeard 'cause I'm not that old.
But they have great lunchand learn opportunities.
I've spoke at one of 'em or spoken.
There's my West VirginianEnglish coming out.
I've spoken at a couple of those where.
I was talking to a group ofhungry eager analysts that wanted
to learn and That's fantastic.
Mostly newer folks to the profession.
(18:15):
Mm-hmm.
But beyond that, they have thingslike fiat, the foundations of Intel
analysis training that we Jasontalked about and I talked about.
You have 40 hours of back tobasics, here's exactly what
this profession looks like.
And when you talk about Fiats, forexample, there's another firm that
teaches the very similar Fiat,which is NW three C. The folks that
(18:38):
I used to be employed with, theyhave a, a, a slew of educational
opportunities and that are free.
For law enforcement professionalsacross the nation that cover
everything from financial crimes,high tech crimes, prosecutorial.
If anybody wants to dip their toeinto the lawyer pool, God help you.
(18:58):
Then also the intel spot, which iswhere I spent a lot of my time helping
develop that program, get it going.
They had their fiat kind of operatingin lockstep with FI or with EY E'S Fiat.
But then they took it a stepfurther and started teaching
courses on analytic writing,strategic analysis, link analysis.
(19:19):
I actually still know afew folks that work there.
They actually have one now on kind oflike analytic methodology and thinking.
So highly encourage folks if you havethose law enforcement credentials
to pursue that avenue as well.
Another great opportunityor series of opportunities.
The Heatherington group, CynthiaHeatherington has a bunch of those
types of online learning module.
(19:41):
She actually has a endeavor that shehas that is called the OSI Academy.
I was actually.
Privilege to go throughthat endeavor as well.
That has grown into its its own kindof monolith of open source kind of
investigation techniques and education.
Mm-hmm.
But another one that's a sleeper,I think many folks don't pay too
much attention to is Coursera.
(20:02):
And this is not me talkingwith an endorsement.
I'm not wearing a Coursera polo on this
one,
but this is one where there isan amount of cost to it because.
I think you pay like 40 bucks a monthfor a subscription, which again, yeah,
there's that monetary concept, but $40to an agency for a year might be doable.
(20:23):
Mm-hmm.
And if not the analyst prop mayencumber some of that cost, but it's
also cancelable at any point in time.
But that's actually where Igot my sql graduation credit.
And I did it through uc, Davis, and it wasa fantastic, it was kind of self-paced.
They have all those lessons there for you.
It was hands-on.
I actually was able to write some scriptsand write code as opposed to have a
(20:46):
learning professional talking to me frommy magic computer that sits on my desk.
So I highly encourage folks to do thosetypes of opportunities simply because they
show you, as I said earlier, new trends,tactics, or skills, and those skills.
Remember I said the the biggestcheerleader for yourself, the
analyst is going to be yourself.
(21:07):
But that marketability, if you're ananalyst that starts out in one shop
and you have an opportunity to move toanother shop, or move to another agency
or organization that sets you apart.
You may have folks that have thoseskills, but do they have the analytic
background combined with that technicalbackground as well, or whatever that
particular topic or area of expertise thatyou're pursuing through your education.
(21:32):
But if you're staying within your agencydepending on how large they are, and it
should be completely regardless of thesize of the agency, of the organization,
but there is that promotional aspect.
You took the initiative, youwent through this training.
Demonstrated dedication to the craft andso on, so that you know for yourself,
you may actually have a distinctionfrom going from the journeyman analyst
(21:55):
to let's say, Intel Analyst one,which is fantastic for some folks.
You bump up and if that's partof your career objectives,
your trajectory wholeheartedly,that's the way to go about it.
But I would say one other thing,and this, and I referenced this
earlier as well, conferences.
Many people see conferences asopportunities just to get away
(22:16):
from the office for a little bit.
Not really a vacation because you'restill there doing work and partnering
with folks and discussing work.
But it's a great opportunity for learning.
I've been to many a conference inmy time and that's actually how
you and I kind of got connectedthrough all of our conversations.
Jason was, I think itwas what, IA and Chicago?
(22:36):
Yes, I think so.
Yeah.
I, I believe so.
And.
All of those trainings.
I mean, they're, they're crafted byprofessionals for professionals for the
sake of continuing education and all ofthose aspects that I just talked about.
But it's not just the trainingthat comes into play here.
Yes, it shows initiative.
Yes, you're representing your agency,but you're representing yourself.
(22:59):
And when you represent yourself, you'rebuilding greater potential for those
partnerships, for that collaborativeeffort, for that networking.
I'm all about the networking.
I love building contacts, liaisons,and friends across the nation because
you never know when you're gonna need.
Assistance from insert organization here.
It's al it always behoovesyou to make a contact.
(23:21):
Let's say you meet John Smith fromTexas who has a gang and narcotics
aspect, part of their kind of Rolodexof their area of responsibility.
You're running into something that mayhave run along the southwest border.
It's.
Now, if only I met somebody at oneof these conferences that covers
this, I know I'll pick up the phone.
Well, I'll pick up the phone.
I'll get on my keyboard and writethe email and ask John, Hey,
(23:45):
does he have anything on this?
So it builds that larger analyticcommunity, and you're gonna
learn through that as well.
Everything's a learningopportunity in my eyes.
Maybe that's what makes mesuch a a fervent educator.
I'm always trying to learnsomething new and I learn stuff
every day by talking with folks.
So I think that gives youthat opportunity as well.
But even if you're not attendingas a traditional attendee,
(24:09):
there are opportunities atthese conferences to speak.
And actually get up on the podium andshare some of the stuff that you've
done, or maybe there's an alternativeview or technique that you work with
that maybe the other thousands ofagencies that you know could potentially
attend these conferences, may not.
So it's a great opportunityfor you to speak for yourself.
(24:29):
As well as demonstrate all of thosecredentials and all of that fine education
that you, the analysts have gone throughthroughout your career, and demonstrate
that prowess, which ultimately lendsitself to further education because people
are gonna come to you with questionsor they're gonna say, I actually have a
different view of that, which is greatbecause guess what you're learning still.
(24:50):
And that's, and I find that allsuch a cool symbiotic living
process as part of that whole kindof analytic learning endeavor.
You gray beards may want you to pick upthe phone and talk to them, so I love it.
So you might, you just, you mightneed to know your audience, whether
you're texting keyboarding or calling.
(25:13):
Fair point.
So, so the one thing I would addto all of this, and maybe you could
make an argument that's not, thisisn't quite training, but look for.
Opportunities within your city.
Mm-hmm.
For networking andeducational experiences.
Some examples are if a department inyour city is having an open house.
(25:39):
Maybe waterworks or planning ishaving some kind of open house.
That might be a great opportunityto go in there and meet those folks
and, 'cause you never know whenyou might need them in a pinch.
I would say one of the thingsthat I did while back was I was
part of the Citizens Fire Academy.
(26:01):
Which I was a great experience for me.
So I think, and maybe if you're.
An analyst that's in, that's isassigned to a particular jurisdiction.
Mm-hmm.
A lot of, a lot of people always talkon the podcast about getting out from
under your desk and going out and seeingthe world and seeing that jurisdiction.
(26:23):
So if there's community eventsor if there's something important
going on in that particular area,j take that opportunity to go out
and just observe it for yourself.
Yeah,
and I, and I'll say that to kindof compound your point many of us
in this profession you're I, I'veheard you talk at conferences,
(26:44):
I've heard you speak in person.
I know you make the joke of I'm not muchof a public speaker and there you go.
Knocking it out of the park.
I would almost say you and I are kindof weird black sheep to the profession
because we don't mind putting ourselvesout there talking to folks, learning
and kind of building that conversation.
You have, by and large, a largerpercentage of folks in this profession
(27:05):
who they don't have that confidence.
And we've talked about this beforeabout how critical thinking builds
that confidence, but just seeing thatyou have other folks that are doing
effectively the same voodoo that youdo so well, are getting up there and
speaking, getting up there, puttingthemselves, exposing themselves within
reason to this wider analytic collective.
(27:28):
It almost builds kind of thatconfidence in you to say, well, maybe
I should take a run at this next year.
Or maybe, like you said, put myselfout there if another agency within
my jurisdiction or in a neighboringjurisdiction is having a symposium or
having an open house to put the best footforward and start building those bridges,
like I said, I, I see value in all of it.
(27:49):
I think it's all a, a worthwhileendeavor just to put yourself out there
and be part of those types of events.
Very good.
And we're, we're gonna put linksto all the information that Randy
and I have talked about today.
So be sure to check out the shownotes for additional information.
All right, Randy, let's justsum up this like we always do.
(28:10):
Before you leap, you should what?
Before you leap, you should rememberyour training opportunities.
Nice, nice.
And just real quick before we saygoodbye, Superman or Fantastic four.
Ooh,
diehard Marvel guy here.
You're, you're testing me Uhhuh, butI'm gonna say Superman was pretty good.
(28:33):
All right.
All right.
That's interesting.
I did like Fantastic four better thanSuperman, but that's that, that's gonna
have to be a conversation offline.
Absolutely.
All right, Randy.
Until next time, think before you leap.
Yep.
Thanks
for having me, Jason.
Thank you for making it tothe end of another episode of
(28:54):
Analyst Talk with Jason Elder.
You can show your support by sharingthis and other episodes found
on our website@www.podcasts.com.
If you have a topic you would likeus to cover or have a suggestion for
our next guest, please send us anemail at Elliot podcasts@gmail.com.
Till next time, analysts, keep talking.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Cardiac Cowboys
The heart was always off-limits to surgeons. Cutting into it spelled instant death for the patient. That is, until a ragtag group of doctors scattered across the Midwest and Texas decided to throw out the rule book. Working in makeshift laboratories and home garages, using medical devices made from scavenged machine parts and beer tubes, these men and women invented the field of open heart surgery. Odds are, someone you know is alive because of them. So why has history left them behind? Presented by Chris Pine, CARDIAC COWBOYS tells the gripping true story behind the birth of heart surgery, and the young, Greatest Generation doctors who made it happen. For years, they competed and feuded, racing to be the first, the best, and the most prolific. Some appeared on the cover of Time Magazine, operated on kings and advised presidents. Others ended up disgraced, penniless, and convicted of felonies. Together, they ignited a revolution in medicine, and changed the world.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.