Analyst Talk - Phil Powell - The Fundamentals Analyst - Leapodcasts

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Welcome to Analyst Talk with Jason Elder.

(00:01):
It's like coffee with an analyst,or it could be whiskey with an
analyst reading a spreadsheet,linking crime events, identifying a
series, and getting the latest scoopon association news and training.
So please don't beat that analystand join us as we define the law
enforcement analysis profession.
One episode at a time.
Thank you for joining me.
I hope many aspects ofyour life are progressing.
My name is Jason Elder, and todayour guest has 33 years of law

(00:26):
enforcement analysis experience.
He spent time as a senior internationaladvisor of the Jamaican government and a
UK National Criminal Intelligence Service.
He has a criminal intelligencecertification and he is currently
the vice president of IALEIA.
Please welcome Phil Powell.
Phil, how we doing?

(00:47):
Good.
Jason, thank you very much for theintroduction great to be with you and
looking forward to to our session.
Yeah.
And obviously our, thoughts are withJamaica as they just went through
that hurricane . Glad you are safeand obviously it's horrible event that
happened there, but I'm, glad we wereable to get a chance to still talk today.
Yes, Jason, thank you.

(01:08):
Thank you for those kind with you.
Very difficult time for, for Jamaica.
Personally I was very fortunate.
A lot of others less so.
And it's gonna take a, a lot of harderwork and effort for the rebuild process.
But Jamaican people are resilientand very strong and I'm very
confident that although it'lltake time, that the, they'll come
through this with their usual.

(01:30):
Enthusiasm and vigor andJamaica will come again.
Alright, so obviously I do wantto talk IALEIA, but I also want
to get to your background storyand how you got here today.
So how did you discover the lawenforcement analysis profession?
Okay, well one, one inthe clock way, way back.
You mentioned the 33 years directlyinvolved in intelligence within

(01:52):
the law enforcement environment,but I was actually working in the
intelligence community prior to that.
Started in the mid eighties in the uk.
And really my.
My first formal engagement and workingdirectly with law enforcement was, was
when I joined the National CriminalIntelligence Service in 1992, which
was basically shortly after it hadbeen formed by the British government

(02:13):
and was the first real nationalcriminal intelligence entity to
support law enforcement in the uk.
Alright.
Take us back there and just help uslike how it was, , the task that you got
into the environment that you were in.
Sure.
And some of the task and, and data.
, So back in the day, it was it wasrecognized that the UK law enforcement

(02:36):
structure consisted of over 40police, police forces, individual
police forces and as globalization,if you like, with any in industry.
But the same with crime startedto spread borderless crime.
Certainly within the UK and furtherafield, there was a realization that there
needed to be centralized coordinationand analysis of information relating

(02:58):
to, to criminality because it was goingfrom being local to being national,
to being international at a pace.
And there were lots ofcrossovers going on.
And there was a realization thatfragmentation of information and
data was not the way forward.
So the National Criminal IntelligenceService was formed it was very
relatively small at that time, butit drew on expertise from multiple

(03:21):
disciplines within law enforcement.
From investigative and operationalindividuals through to those with
an intelligence or analyticalspecialization drew them all under one,
one roof in London initially with sixregional offices throughout the uk.
My role really was to come in andbring some of my expertise around

(03:43):
intelligence collection and analysisthat I'd learned in the intelligence
environment within the United Kingdom.
It was still a relatively new conceptfor some of the wider intelligence
community to be involved in supportinglaw enforcement in traditionally
intelligence services stayed in their own.
Realm behind the fence ina very guarded environment.

(04:04):
But there was a realization that thefight against serious and organized crime
was starting to impact on a lot of widersecurity issues, and therefore there was
this collaboration formation going on.
So there was a lot more liaison,a lot more coordination of the
intelligence on a broader field.
, How was it breaking downthose silos and having this.

(04:25):
Collaboration aspect to it, becauseas you mentioned, it's you're dealing
with organized crime and yeah.
Folks are used to doing thingsa certain way and now you're in
this kind of conglomerate of Yeah.
Multiple, various pointsof view coming together.
Yeah.
It was a challenge.
It was a challenge because there wasa lot of traditional thinking with.

(04:49):
In enforcement outside.
And it was a real challenge to, toreally bring particularly the analytical
piece to, to the, the forefront.
A lot of the analysts in the, in theUnited Kingdom working in intelligence
were traditionally civilians.
And that was a, a, a challengingbarrier at the time, back in the day to
break down that or, or bring togethersworn officers enforcement officers

(05:12):
and have them work with civilians.
But SYS provided that platform for that.
And even for some of the, should we callthem non-believers at the time, after
a sort of three to five year secondmentto the national criminal intelligence
from their home forces or enforcementagencies, I would like to think that
the majority of those did go back totheir respective units and environments.

(05:34):
Fully appreciative ofthe value of analysts.
And so the word spread there, which wasreally the platform for the formation of
the whole approach to intelligence ledpolicing in the uk and then the creation
of the national intelligence model.
How long were you in this, this position?
So I would've been working directlywith sys right up to 2000 and eight.

(05:59):
Mm-hmm.
I'd obviously spent time inLondon working before I went
on to a couple of secondmentsoverseas to the United Nations.
Before I got before I got.
Posted out from, from sys to an overseasposition where we had various crime
liaison officers in various embassiesand high commissions throughout the

(06:21):
world in key node areas to work withour partner agencies internationally.
Hmm.
As you look back what are someof the major things you, feel
that you accomplished and,and learned at, the position?
Well, I think, I think certainly atthat time the realization of the value
of that sort of wider integration ofdata and information into one space,

(06:43):
recognizing those crossovers into variousdifferent operations and different
investigations that were going on.
I think we broke down some of thosesiloed barriers and realized that the
criminals were certainly interactingand working on a wider network.
And so therefore law enforcementhad to adapt and react accordingly.

(07:03):
So that widespread informationsharing, availability and liaison
network became an absolute key factorinto, into trying to stay one step
ahead of these growing syndicates.
And wider international perspectivesthat the crime groups were working to.
So I think that was, thatwas one major takeaway.
This, this, this globalizationof, of crime networks.

(07:25):
And then the second was, was howabsolutely critical the, and valuable
the use of analysis in those areas was inorder to, or sort of maximize resources
that were remain as they do today.
Infinite not, not hugeamounts of resources.
So how best to use those resourcesby focused and deliberate areas

(07:49):
of action for the decision makersto maximize those resources.
But using, utilizing the, the, thetremendous work done by the analysts
to actually point them in the rightdirection and help steer best approaches.
For those operational and investigativecommanders to make the decisions.
Yeah.
So this was centralized in, inLondon, but you're also Yeah.

(08:12):
Stationed in Jamaica, is that correct?
Right.
So, the formation of sys at the timewas headquarters based in London, but it
also had regional offices geographicallylocated throughout the United Kingdom.
Mm-hmm.
And then there was also a sharedinternational network in, which was
really a, a rollover from the previous,approaches where key areas of, of
upstream disruption for internationalcrime, the UK would have a network

(08:36):
of liaison officers based overseas,
hmm.
Yeah.
, And then how was that again?
You're, you're bringingeverything together.
You're organizing.
Data and processes, yet ob obvious, I'mguessing that the, the issues in Jamaica
are very different from those of the uk.

(08:57):
Yeah, of course.
But one of the, one of the scenarioswe have back in the early, I would
say sort of early two thousands,was there was a lot of international
crime impacting on the UK from variousdifferent jurisdictions and entities.
And then of course the influx oftransnational narcotics trafficking
and obviously South America being akey production area for those narcotics

(09:20):
and Jamaica as a transshipment point'cause it's location in Caribbean.
Mm-hmm.
And when you couple that with the the,the large diaspora and traditional
relationship between UK and Jamaicathen obviously there were a lot of
cross inquiries going on betweenwhat was happening in the UK and
what was happening in Jamaica.
So having liaison offices in place inthe Caribbean to, to work with their

(09:43):
local counterparts within enforcement inthose jurisdictions was again, another
example of that collaborative working.
To look at both aspects , of the crime,groups with a, view to understanding
the extent of the network and lookingfor opportunities to obviously
to negate those threats and tryand bring those involved justice.
What was behind the move in, in 2008?

(10:05):
So, in 2008, , my time in Jamaicahad more than passed actually.
Mm-hmm.
Because there were some changes in the uk.
I'd, I'd, I'd effectively been outthere for six years and it was time
to come back, but then there weresome capacity building projects.
That they were looking to do.
And I think because of my background andbecause of the time I'd actually spent

(10:25):
in location I was, I was approached byvarious funding parts to see if I would
be prepared to assist in some additionalcapacity building work around the same
sort of intelligence analysis component.
, Within the Jamaican mechanism.
Yeah.
I, I guess we, we, did we skip over, wemissed the part about the Balkans Yeah.
Yeah.

(10:45):
Yeah.
So that was at the end, that was sortof that was, I went from working at
NCHQ to this opportunity that presenteditself when the UK support wanted
to support the UN mission in Kosovo.
And we're looking for some people.
And I was approached again to seeif I would be happy to get involved
in going out and, and leading theintelligence and analysis theme, really

(11:07):
to try and do some work around therewith, unmic and, the police there.
Under a UN or sp to see what analysiscould be gleaned to ensure that
organized crime wasn't gonna get a gripin what was then a US administrative
enclave as Kosovo prior to it becomingits own standalone sort of entity.
Further that much, muchfurther down the line.

(11:28):
Yeah.
So this
is 1999, 2000 time 2000, yes.
Time period.
Indeed, . This feels likeyou're like a little bit of a
diplomat here in this, role.
Yeah.
So, I say with the 1999 came thethe crises that were going on
throughout the Balkans post consbreakup of Yugoslavia, et cetera.
And obviously one of the flashpointareas amongst, amongst many was kosso.

(11:53):
And the well-documentedsituation that happened there.
And then obviously that becamebecause of its situation temporarily
under the UN administration.
And I've spoken previously in Washingtonnow where about analysis in what I
would call non-traditional environments.
And that isn't talking about anybody'snationality or, or any particular country.

(12:15):
Mm-hmm.
But the fact that any area is under aUN administration makes it a sort of
artificial setup, a temporary setup.
And obviously trying to conductanalysis in those kind of environments
which were unstable in many ways wasa real challenge to take a team there.
Team working with five other differentnationalities as well, all coming together

(12:38):
from various enforcement entities.
To try and put a, put a team togetherthere to start to do exactly what we've
basically done in the uk, which istrying to have a centralized, pooled
resource for gathering informationaround criminality that would, would,
would be taking place or evolvingin that very artificial environment
whilst Kosovo was under a UN mandate.

(13:00):
So it was work conducted under theUnited Nations mission in Kosovo on mic.
Mm-hmm.
And specifically the un poll, basicallyUU United Nations Police UN poll there.
So we were then under that orificeand we were basically starting
with a blank sheet of paper.
So very interesting working very closely,obviously with the military that we're
effectively running the security there.

(13:22):
The UN police, which is made up of a, araft of different nations that were there.
And also battling with the, thescenarios that you had in a,
in a very difficult situation.
And I always quote this when I'm teachinganalysts about knowing their trade
craft rather than relying on technology.
At times when we were first there,we only had two hours of power a day.

(13:44):
Oh, wow.
So that, that really becomes a challenge.
Even though back in the daywe were in the, quite in the.
Technological revolution we're in today.
But obviously you've gotta goback to your basics at that point.
When the seniors want analysis onthings and you can't really turn
around and say, well, I'm sorry.

(14:04):
I haven't got any power to plugin my laptop or my computer.
You gotta go with what you got.
So it, it really was an eyeopenerand it really did the team, the
initial team that we took out thereto set up structurally, mm-hmm.
It provided some really goodchallenges and it really enforced
to me the importance of the analystsunderstanding their trade craft.
I'm all for the use of technologyand not suggesting otherwise, but

(14:27):
the ability to be able to do itunder pressure when you don't have
those tools is really important.
And you could really draw full circleback and say, even though we are
not quite in that situation at themoment in Jamaica, but obviously there
was a period where power was down.
Infrastructure was damaged.
If you're gonna have tooperate in those environments.

(14:48):
You better know your trade craft andyou better know how to do it longhand.
Yeah.
Well, I'm, I'm envisioning it.
You only have two hoursa day and you're, yeah.
So you're obviously not relying on thecomputer most of the day, so you're not
getting your data that way to analyze.
So then you're going more of what youtalked about, the old fashioned way

(15:11):
of, some people might say it, whereyou're dealing with reports, human
intelligence getting out of the desk.
Just networking and Yep.
Collaborating and meeting a a,
absolutely.
Yes, Jason, I, it is a fundamental part ofwhat the Angus needs to be doing because.
Whilst that intelligence cycle,all those different components in

(15:34):
the intelligence cycle from, fromplanning and direction through to
collection, through to the collectionevaluation, pre the pre-analytic stage.
Really, it's really important thatanalysts understand all those different
aspects of the cycle so that theycan better enhance the product.
They generate.
And I again would encourage any analyst.

(15:55):
Who's obviously, obviously aware of theintelligence cycle, but actually take
time to go and find out and be immersedin those other aspects of it and, and
not be focused too directly on justtheir analytical part of that process.
I think it's really important thatyou understand that and, and the
aftermath, the, the disseminationand as feedback side of things.

(16:17):
So while the analyst's role is to dothat core competency around analysis,
it's really important if they're goingto value add to their product, that they
understand the challenges, particularlyaround sometimes the collection.
That are out there because whenthey are tasking out for additional
information, they need to understanda, the ability to collect and, and

(16:37):
see some of the challenges they are sothat what they're actually sending out
and what they're producing in orderfor requirements to be collected are
reasonable and, and, and achievable.
So I think as, as a. Truerounded, analytical professional.
You need to be fully with eachof those different disciplines
within the intelligence cycle.

(16:58):
Mm-hmm.
Well, you, mentioned theintelligence cycle and Yeah.
In this case, when you'redealing with such different.
Sources of information, oh geez,I'm drawing a blank on, step where
you, I, I wanna say collaborate,but that's not the right word.
Well, it all
under the collection process really.

(17:18):
. Yeah.
I would imagine with this, sinceyou only have electric power for
two hours a day, that the bigportion of your day is collection.
You're having different sources.
'cause I, I feel today.

(17:38):
When analysts, it's data, mostof it is electronic information.
It's data, right?
It's, you're not getting so manydifferent types of sources, whether
it's handwriting, meeting I guess weare getting a little bit more into video
intelligence now with street cameras,but back then as you're dealing with.

(17:59):
Only having computers two hours a day.
Your tasks are dealing obviouslywith more than just computer data.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
The, the world we live in, in thismodern era and this technological era
is, is obviously the data comes toyou more, more readily than maybe in
those days, and certainly in that, thatenvironment that sort of fragmented if

(18:20):
you wanna call it that kind of artificialenvironment under an administration.
United Nations administration,those flows of data certainly
weren't, weren't there in place.
So yeah, you're reverting back , tocollection methodologies by,
to go out and get it yourself.
So the, because of the relativelysmall nature of the team.

(18:41):
A lot of time and effort was spenton building those relationships
in theater as well as looking atwhat are the various different
information sources were out there.
Obviously in the UN environment like that,when you've got lots of different moving
parts in the wheelhouse of theater be itNGOs, be it un, be it the military and

(19:03):
non court, all the different nationalitiesthat are represented in that space.
It becomes really important to reachout and find exactly where those in
the information is and also , to.
Create those protocols and, and mo MOUsfor sharing of that information as well
and making sure we put it into one space.
But the principles remain the same, thatyou have to have a central repository

(19:26):
in order to store this data, to collateit, as you've mentioned earlier,
and also to be able to evaluate it.
And that's a huge challenge.
In this day and age is evaluationbecause there is so much data out there.
You know, with the advent of AIand all the other sources, that
c corroborating intelligence fromindependent sources now has become
bigger challenge because of the, thebreadth of information sharing that goes

(19:50):
on in, in through the technical side.
So yeah, we did spend alot of time doing that.
We also had to adapt our core principlesof the intelligence process into
what is workable in that environment.
And I think one of the big lessons learnedwith that was the adaptability of analysts
to be able to pivot and to try and whilstremain true to the principles and the

(20:11):
philosophies of the internet cycle.
Find new and innovative waysto, to find information, get
information, and, draw it in.
Be it deployment of field operatives.
But also that, that that liaisonand collaboration aspect is,
is really, really important.
And all it is is an expansionof what we all do as.

(20:31):
Analysts and, and intelligenceprofessional, which is networking,
which is always a big factor.
And one, we always we always pushhard on about the importance of
networking and, and, and access.
It's key really because you can havethe greatest set of analysts in the
world, but if you don't have themechanisms to support that or the
environment to support that analyticalwork, it's really challenging.

(20:53):
What I will say is even though wehave that lack of power initially,
those core principles that analystshave and are ingrained through their
structured analytical techniques,they stood true in that environment.
And it shows that you canactually conduct analysis longhand
for want of a better term.
Even though we live in a modern era,it's really important for, analysts

(21:13):
to be able to still have thosecore principles rather than just
technical solutions to everything.
And again.
To your point from earlier, Jason, thatyou know, the fact that there's been the
recent Hurricane Melissa through Jamaicalosses of power albeit they've been
restored to a large part of where we are.
Some of the other aspects of theyoung are still remain really, really

(21:34):
catastrophic, catastrophically impacted.
You still gotta be able to delivercritical analysis to the decision
makers whether you've got power or not.
So those core fundamentals that weall learn in our trade craft early on.
Remain true and they can be done.
You just have to be adaptableand flexible as I know.
One of the key traits ofanalysts requires that.

(21:55):
So true.
What did you accomplish,both you and your team?
I think we, what we were able to do was,going and set up a a principles collection
point, really for information and,provides some true analysis in, in a very,
as I mentioned earlier, fragmented and.
Sort of disjointed environment in, inchallenging, in challenging circumstances.

(22:18):
And, and, and with, with all theissues that we've talked about there.
The restrictions for, for thevery situation that the a that
the theater was in at the time thevery complex moving part scenario
that was around the whole of that.
The province during, during thattransitional period, we, I think we

(22:38):
were able to try, we were able to putin some, mechanisms, some processes that
allowed us to, at least have a centralpoint and make some sense of what was
going on from all these very, yes.
Pots of information that are outthere and provide a centralization
and provide some clarity.
And I think most rewardingly waseventually with, a little bit of

(22:58):
imagination and adaptation, we werestill able to conduct what we would
term as a familiarity around ouranalytical approaches to generate
products that were of value at the time.
To most of the Omic police and Kfour who were operating in the space.
Yeah.
You've mentioned a couple of timesnow the fundamentals of intelligence

(23:21):
analysis and I just got to thinkingthat there may be a listener in there
that's fairly new to the profession.
So I just, we quickly go oversome, just some of the fundamentals
that you're referring to.
Right.
Well, I think, we've got the intelligentcycle, which forms the core really of,
of workflow plan for, the whole process.
But I think it goes broader than that.

(23:42):
And I think if anything that, thattime back in the nineties down in
the Balkans kind of really, reallybrought into focus the personal traits.
And fundamentals that, thatthe individual has to have.
As well as the technical prowess, aswell as the skill sets and the structured
analytical technique training andapproaches, I think as important was the

(24:04):
ability for people to be able to adapt.
Adaptability and, and also be ableto say, well, okay, we can't do
it as we would normally do it.
The situation theenvironment doesn't allow.
But how then do we adapt, pivotto to, to make, to make this work?
And I think those thingsare maybe these days.

(24:26):
With automation and, and, and tools.
Fantastic.
Tools and solutions.
Maybe that requirement to be more flexiblein thought processes, maybe not as,
not as apparent as it was back then.
But one of the things, revertingback to your previous question,
Jason, which was what wasachieved the personal development.

(24:46):
I believe that the, the analyststhat, that, that went out and,
and were involved in that, got.
Their broadening of their approachwas really clear to me as the
manager on, on how they reallyexpanded their thought processes and
their almost approach to analysis.
And that was born out when they,everybody returned back to the, regular

(25:07):
you know, back from the secondmentto their regular organizations.
I saw a number of the reallyflourish and I, I truly believe
that a large part of that was there.
Not, not necessarily their specificanalytical skills, but their.
Traits and their, their fundamentalsas an analyst to have that broader
perspective and have that thoughtprocesses, we've always advocated,

(25:30):
right, Jason, that the, an analysisis, is fundamentally thought processes.
Alright?
We use a, a number ofstructured techniques obviously
to, to, to enable that.
But, but the bottom line isit's the thought processes.
It's that creative.
Critical thinking all bound togetherby logic is what really, really sets
the analysts apart and what theirreal value is coming to the table.

(25:53):
Looking at all those aspects, and I thinkthose kind of challenging environments, we
talk about some of those key traits abouthaving that flexibility, adaptability.
And also their open-mindedness to,to be able to change or approach
things in a different manner, allaiming for the same end result.
I think it's really enlighting, I thinkit's really broadening and adds a lot

(26:13):
to the to the skill set and trade craftof the analyst as they can do that.
So it's about personal traits as as muchas it is about technical capability.
alright.
And then, so you finish up , in2001 and then you go on still with
the UN to spearhead the, evaluationstudy for Southeast Europe.

(26:34):
Right.
So as a result
Of everything that was happening in thatregion, Southeast Europe, between the box
and other countries the un VP developmentprogram, they were looking at trying to
gauge and launch a project that would,would encourage the use of criminal
intelligence analysis across the region.
Regional care information.

(26:56):
Again, the same philosophy that Imentioned earlier, that, that criminality
was cross border, was regional rather thanspecific to any one country or territory.
Obviously cross border smuggling,post post sort of conflicts
down there in the late nineties.
A lot of transitional aspectsof people being displaced.
Mm-hmm.
But also the opportunity fororganized crime to kind of spread

(27:18):
its networks beyond its own borders.
So that became apparent that itwas a really importance required to
try and tackle regional organizedcrimes transnational in the region.
So it was really to go out and engage.
What levels of competency and capabilitythose various countries engaged
in the project would have with theview that the UN would put a project

(27:40):
together to try and promote upliftand capacity, build that regional
networking sharing of internationalbest practice from, for, from a criminal
intelligence perspective and obviously.
Background being, which wasreally at the forerunner in
Europe of that kind of capability.
I was commandeered back into the UN togo and do the feasibility study in each

(28:02):
those company
led to some very interestingfindings, really.
And lessons well learned about howpeople operate slightly differently.
I think the key objectivewas, I think nine countries
were involved in that project.
It was basically to see wherethey all were and, and, and.
Respectfully, they were all indifferent, different levels of
development, capacity and resource.

(28:23):
Mm-hmm.
So scalability for theproject came all important.
It's very difficult to put a blanketproject across such a wide region until
you get everything leveled up to atleast a baseline standard, so that then
you can start to introduce more moreholistic kind of project components.
So it was a case of going and evaluatingwho needed what at that stage to get,

(28:45):
get everybody to the same baselinelevel so that there could be those
shared capabilities going forwardand understanding of the whole, that
ethos of intelligence led approach.
Yeah.
And I, that's where my head was going too.
When I see that it's nine differentcountries that you're trying to
bring to the same level, thatobviously some countries are gonna

(29:06):
need more attention than others.
Absolutely.
And, and that was exactly the case.
And of course, you're operating indifferent legal jurisdictions too.
Mm-hmm.
Which brings its challenges.
Yeah.
So, there, there are elementsthat become restricted.
There are different structuresin each of those countries.
There are different policing, but oneof the key elements that we did on the
team that did the evaluation was thefirst thing you had back to fundamentals

(29:29):
from the analysis point of view, waswhilst a lot of people at senior level
wanted all the sort of the modern daytechnologies, the first question that
we write is, what is your mechanismfor centralizing your information?
Which sounds very very sort of basicand boring, but it's a fundamental
question because if, if everybody isoperating autonomously in a country.
At local level and there's nocentralization of that data.

(29:52):
Any analyst would tell you thatmakes your job very, very hard.
Again, to get all the informationaccessible you need to do your job.
It does seem though that your messagethrough this whole, process of both, the
Kosovo and now these nine countries isthe fundamentals of intelligence can be
applied to very different situations.

(30:15):
They, they can absolutely.
What you have to have isa level of flexibility
to
understand and recognize where thedifferences and the localized adaptations
need to be made in order to make it work.
To use an old edge.
Again, there's no one size fits allsolution and we are very conscious
of that and my work internationallyover the last 25 odd years.

(30:37):
Is that you cannot just pick up andtransfer from one jurisdiction to another.
You can go with the principles andthe philosophies, but you've gotta be
open-minded and you've got to make itwork in that local, local environment.
Yeah.
You cannot just relay what worksin, say, UK or North America and
overlay it in a another jurisdiction.
Because simply it would be impractical.

(30:58):
And you have to make thoseallowance and make those
adaptations to make the model work.
So we are very keen.
Wherever we, we talk and we reach, we,we make a model and we say, well, this
model can work, but it's up to you at alocal level to see how you need to adapt
it to make the core principles work.
And you have to have that levelof flexibility in order for these

(31:19):
things to become practically.
Yeah.
Now before we move on, I just, I'mcurious, just personally of these nine
countries and then you got Kosovo.
. Is there one particular countrythat that's your favorite?
Or did, did one that's a particularyou, you just the environment, the,

(31:40):
the nature of whatever you were ableto experience is better than the rest.
, I have to be careful becauseI've got a lot of enduring
friendships in most of those.
They all, what I will say isthey were all very unique.
And what I will say as well isthat everybody that we dealt
with were, were, were, were superenthusiastic and super keen.

(32:01):
Mm-hmm.
Very open and willing to adopt and,and try and, and adopt the processes.
And we couldn't wish, wish forbetter insights from, from all
the various different ministersand ministries that we dealt with
and the law enforcement entities.
They were excellent in embracingthe concept and what we're only
trying to achieve, which is.
Which is commendable consideringwhat the region have been through.

(32:24):
Obviously imagine a there is a certainreluctance around the sharing, but
that's not unique to that region.
I've been encount that probably everywhereI go and I include my own country.
It's always difficult tobreak those barriers down.
I always stressed around this whenwe go to the meeting classroom.
Conferences or, or we,we deliver training.
But don't think that this is unique toyou, this challenge that you sometimes

(32:47):
have with people sharing or openingup or being accepting of analysis.
That is a global phenomenon.
It's, it's better in some places thanothers, but it's certainly not there's
no utopia for that at the moment.
Mm-hmm.
So don't feel isolated anywhere inthe world if you're encountering
some of these challenges that Ialluded to today, because they're
not unique to your jurisdiction.

(33:09):
Although sometimes it may feel like that.
Well,, I don't want you to create enemiesthis, late in the game, so I I understand.
Oh, no, that's great.
But I mean, , I think that the cost ofexperience was a very big eye opener
because we were going into an environmentand we were given the the mandate to
actually set something up from scratch.
And this is something I'm alsoreally, really passionate about.

(33:31):
In the analysis world is thatwe're all aware of all the various
training that's available out thereand is great and absolutely crucial.
And as I always say tomanagers senior in different
jurisdictions, training is great.
You must create the environmentfor your analyst field to operates.
I think.
So sometimes that is anoverlooked component.

(33:53):
I think people like to send people oncourses, say, oh yeah, they're trained
this and that on this, they've done this.
But unless you allow themto use those skills in their
day-to-day work environment.
The analyst value is guiding twocomponents you must create environment.
And the other one that I'm bigon is making sure that management
understand of the role of the analyst.

(34:14):
That is another huge one that we'vepulled over the years, particularly
in enforcement because it'schanging now as analysts move up.
And then analysts are recognizedas having their own couri structure
within agencies and organizations.
But previously the tendency was thatmanagement, particularly law enforcement,
would have analysts within their, orwithin their management structure,

(34:36):
but didn't really fully understandwhat the ammunition role was or
what the analyst could do for them.
So that ultimately led to our analystsbeing misused only not used at all
in the role that they were designed.
So we spent a lot of time as wellcreating workshops, specifically
people and senior management tounderstand the role of analysts.

(34:56):
We've even put some managerson analytical training.
They'll never actually be practicinganalysts themselves, but their ability
to understand what their analysts can andshould be doing for them has been a great
way forward in not only the the value ofthe analysts forward, but also making sure
that the management understand and advise.

(35:17):
In the most efficient and effective way.
that is crucial.
Especially since they're the onesgonna be receiving the products and
instructing the, analyst to have astandard, to have a general understanding
of what an analyst does is, key.
Correct.
And it's, it's a message thatwe hear time and time again from

(35:38):
all around the world is Yeah.
Yeah.
It's great.
I love the analysis, but I'm not reallysure my management understand what it is
I can be and should be doing for them.
Hi, this is Steve French and Ihave a message you about language.
Language is really importantwhen you're doing your job.
For instance, it isn'ta zucchini, it's a ette.

(36:00):
It isn't a lobby, it's a foyer.
It isn't Z, it's z. Buses goon route, not routes, and it is
never ever made out of aluminum.
Hi, this is Shelagh Dorn.
Do you wanna build your credibilitywith field personnel, with
police officers on the street?
Get a candy dish, put it on yourdesk and fill it with good candy.

(36:21):
That's your opportunity totalk with people and engage.
You can send out a million emails.
People might know your name, butthey don't really know you until
you talk to them face to face.
And that candy dish is anopportunity to talk with people
and really get to know them.
Hello, this is Brian Grayand my advice for analyst is

(36:42):
don't settle for mediocrity.
If you want to be happy in this careerlong term, you can't be a minimalist.
Just don't do what you're asked for.
Do what you know is right and don't ever,ever substitute quantity for quality.
And if you haven't found a wayto put design to work for you,
you're not doing your best work.

(37:06):
Yeah.
Alright, well now let'sget back to 2008 then.
We are gonna skippedaround here a little bit.
And so now you, are a seniorinternational advisor for
the Jamaican government stillfocusing on organized crime.
Gimme the highlights of your time here.

(37:26):
Well, , it was almost reload repeatbecause it was, again, trying to,
capacity build and assist aroundinternational best practice for the
development of analysis in support ofsecurity and law enforcement in, only
Jamaica, but the wider Caribbean as well.
That uniformed approach making surethat analysts and intelligence led

(37:46):
policing which was a concept thatwas already in the air, if you like.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
But it was really, to provide some of thatmentorship, background advice, training.
And again, one of the key thingsis creating the environment.
I say I can't overstatethe importance of that.
So again, not just the theorypart, but actually producing a an

(38:07):
Analyst specific environment in whichto operate and all the things that,
that requires, particularly thismodern age setting up one of the
things that I get asked quite oftenis, it's great having an analyst, but
how, how do you, how do you set that?
What does it look like?
Mm-hmm.
Do you add them onto teams?
Do you have a standalone component?
Do you have specialists with it?
So again, that structuringof a, of an analysis.

(38:30):
Setup is really fundamentalalongside the training and the,
the competency of individuals.
So we look to set up a whole, wholeraft of an analyst cadre , taking young,
very bright graduates and, then immerthem , into the analytical environment.
Mm-hmm.
And as that's evolved, as that capacityis built into really, really quite a

(38:52):
strong capability in Jamaica and, , theanalysts at the major organized crime
anticorruption agency, they've beenheralded as, as being sort of the, example
really of how analysts can operate.
And that's on their hard workthat's got nothing to do with me.
They, they've applied this tradecraft and, and, and, and followed
the, the international best practicesheavily involved with IE to the

(39:16):
point where actually last year.
At the conference, the IALEIA conferencein Vancouver the major organized and
anti-corruption agency of Jamaica wasactually awarded the President's Award
Nice for 2025, which was testamentto , their commitment and, and
importantly again, their leadershipunderstanding and the leadership
support of the work of the analyst.

(39:38):
Because unless you have that topend support and real belief in
what the analysts are trying todo, it is very, very difficult.
So it was, it was a the majororganized corruption agency
had its 10 year anniversary.
And that 10 years has always been.
The leadership there have been very,very pro analysts and have really

(39:59):
pushed it at the forefront, whichis, which is testimony to them
and testimony to the the level ofsuccess that they've been achieving.
My time there is, , probablynearing, the end now.
Not withstand that I'm due to retirevery shortly, but no, it's a very
humbling and very proud perspectiveI have when I stand back and I watch
these, I've seen some of them fromtheir first day develop into really high

(40:23):
caliber international standard analysts.
Some, a lot of them areout there teaching now.
A lot of them are also accredited.
LEA instructors for the fiat class.
And I can't praise them highenough , for their capabilities that
they've they've developed throughtheir hard work and application.
It's been really heartwarming for me.
Nice.
So you're, in the advisor role asyou just described, and dealing with

(40:46):
a lot of framework, I guess Yeah.
Where were, where were some ofthe frustrations that you had,
or maybe there was pushback onwhat you were trying to set up.
Talk a little bit about some ofthe obstacles that you've had
as being in this advisory role.
Well, I don't, it'sgonna sound really good.
There's always some frustration,but I have to say mm-hmm.

(41:09):
Because of what I mentioned earlierabout the, the, the unwavering
support at senior level mm-hmm.
For this to work.
There have been very, veryfew frustrations in it.
Really it's been a slow process becausethese things aren't built overnight.
I don't think that's the frustration.
So I don't think there's beenanything that, there's really been
what I would call a, a frustration.

(41:31):
No different to any other environmentwhich I've worked in, and including
the uk, which is sometimes maybemaybe some of the older guard
within, within the environmentare less accepting of analysis.
But I think that's a generational thing.
I think that's moved onmassively, certainly in the uk.
And I, and I know it's moved onelsewhere too, but I don't think

(41:53):
there's any way to circumvent that.
You're never gonna have everybodybe believers from the get go.
Maybe even ever, but, but I thinkthat's a changing attitude now.
And one of the, key things I thinkthat, that we've done is we've made
sure we've adapted with the changingenvironment, because it has changed
even in, in my time, even in theCaribbean, that the technology

(42:13):
explosion, if I can call it that.
Is, has been, has, hasreally changed everything.
And I think the key thing isyou have to move with those.
You must move with those times.
You have to pivot to thechanging environment to which
the amnesty is now working.
And I think we've done , that very well.
We're embracing in technology as well.
So I think I think that, I wouldn't saythere's been any real major frustration.

(42:34):
I think what there is is, is a completelyevolving and fluid situation, probably
more than ever in, in our realm.
For instance, and I'llgive you an example.
One of the things we're also overlayingin the approach that we go down now is
maybe the type of individual that youare recruiting as an analyst has shifted
slightly from our traditional thinking,if you may, if for want of a better word.

(42:57):
Now you need to definitelybe more tech savvy.
Mm-hmm.
You need, you need to understandthe nuances of some of these fast
moving technology and, and data.
Out there because most of the time, thesedays, information you're getting, it's
been harnessed , from those very sources.
So, perhaps a more of a tech leaningis important maybe compared to

(43:19):
how, where it was 20 years ago.
Mm-hmm.
And I think some of the areas that welook at as well is, is taking people
who already have a specialist backgroundin some of these areas that we have an
interest in, such as the tech side, thecyber world, or even the financial aspect
and the, and the technical advancementseven within the financial sector.
And then overlaying those expertswith analytical skills, whereas

(43:44):
maybe in the past it's been a caseof getting the analysts, get your
sy in, get recruited, get themtrained up, and then get them to do.
Their research on specialisms andknowledge areas, which we still do,
but what we're doing is we're marryingthose into teams with experts who are
coming from those specialist fieldswho are then adopting and having
the analytical trade craft overlaid.

(44:06):
And that really gives you areal fusion of good expertise
from both sides of the approach.
Let's keep on the technology topic.
Yeah.
I think the struggle that I'veheard from a lot of guests when
it comes to technology is there'sobviously a vast amount of data.
Yeah.
And, and there's limited amount of time.

(44:29):
For the analysts.
Yeah.
And so this, idea of the decisionmaking of the analyst on what
they're going to get best return oninvestment for their time, right?
Yeah.
There is a lot of different datasets that they could comb through.
Yeah.

(44:49):
But just the ability to make, to thinkand make the best decision is, really key.
And is is something that , canbe challenging to train.
It can.
And one of the biggest challengesthat I've got, I mean, I, I find is
making sure that the absolute necessityfor effective integrated technology

(45:10):
outputs doesn't cloud or diminish thehuman judgment component of analysis.
I think that is a real challenge.
You've almost gotta have as I frame it,sort of human stroke, machine learning.
I think there's a real danger thatthat rigorous, critical thinking that
we're all used to as analysts and thecognitive bias reduction, et cetera,

(45:31):
gets diluted through technological tools.
And, and AI models.
Now, I don't want to soundlike I'm empty any of that.
I'm not.
I'm very pro it, but I think you haveto keep it in a balanced, balanced
format so that you are ensure that thecritical thinking and the decision making
and the final evaluation, assessmentand, and interpretation of the data is

(45:55):
a human there's a human in the loop.
And I think that's really important andI can see that it is really easy now
for people to come over reliant on techdriven outcomes rather than applying some
of that traditional analytical thinking,which I think we all agree is the key
component of an analyst is thinking.
Mm-hmm.
So it's teaching those analyststo use the technology as an

(46:18):
aid, not as a replacement.
And make sure that they maintainand retain that responsibility
for final judgment and shouldremain with the analyst.
So I think it's, a two-way street.
I think they, mm-hmm.
The two have to work in tandem.
But I, would just caution against, andI do caution against over-reliance on
technology to come up with a solution.
Yeah.
Yeah.

(46:38):
Well, it's easy, right?
You're just looking at the data.
This is the, what the data's saying.
And I, I think a lot of it too is.
You get an assignment they'reasking for, so thing you, you
supply data and that's about it.
They didn't ask forsuggestions or recommendations.

(46:59):
You just gave them what they asked for
that.
That's right.
And you're right.
It, it's, it's an easy option.
But it's absolutely crucial thatthat the analysts understand when
to trust or, or challenge and thensupplement the automated findings
with their independent analysis.
You rightly say there, Jason, there isa tendency, and I've seen it a lot all
over where the analysts become very,very good at going out and scooping

(47:23):
and even prac down and condensing data.
But then the key component is , you'releaving your recipient to do the analysis.
I'm saying regularly to, people.
Different apices so what, this is great.
This is.
Piece of, it's all there, but so what?
Those recommendations andconclusions, your interpretation

(47:44):
is absolutely fundamental.
And I know those tend to cometowards the end of, of people's
final analysis reports, but I seea lot of analysis that stops short
of , making those interpretations.
Those recommendationsand those conclusions.
So collating all the data intoa, into a very well formatted
is very, very impressive.

(48:05):
But that's only the halfway house forme as of the real value of analysis.
Otherwise, as I say, you're leavingyour customer to do the analysis
and come to are conclusions
co collate was the word you justsaid it, Coate was the word.
And I was trying to find,, Iknew it wasn't collaborate.
It was co that that'swhat I was looking for.

(48:26):
'cause that's obviously something, Imean, when you're dealing with multiple
data sources other than data that,coal light piece is, is important.
I think.
I think now it's kind of overlookedbecause most you're dealing with
a lot of data and that's yes.
You don't get into that as much.
Well, yeah.
And, and, and what I'll add to that,Jason, is not just the collation,

(48:47):
but the evaluation of that data.
You know how, howcorroborating information.
I, I say to, to this thatspeak to me about ai.
I said, that's great.
A AI is great.
Use it like you would an intern.
Yeah.
Bring it all together, but you'vestill gotta check what it is.
And, and evaluation and, and, and inthis day and age of disinformation

(49:07):
and AI generated, trying toevaluate both, source, source and
validity is really challenging.
I won't lie.
It's real challenging for the analysts,but it is an important factor that
they mustn't overlook and takeeverything that they get in as possible.
I'm not saying that they do that,but there's a danger that there's an
overreliance on what gets generatedrather than go back, use it as

(49:29):
your first point, but then in, andagain, in old money, go back and.
Collaboration or go and see if youcan corroborate that information from,
and I know it's even harder thesedays to find independent sources.
'cause what's an independentsource these days?
Mm-hmm.
Because interconnectivity, et cetera,et cetera, very difficult to know
the origins, but you must alwaystry and find the origins of of

(49:51):
the information harder and harder.
So I'm not saying there's an easysolution, but I think it's important
that analysts actually recognize it andthen add, incorporate their professions
and say, okay, this, this looks good.
Let's see if I can, if,if I can verify this.
And that's where you start again, thegeneration of automated collation.
Mm-hmm.
It starts to reduce that all capabilityof key assumption testing all the

(50:16):
things that we need to do becauseit will be so easy again, to, come
up with a inaccurate analysis whichcould, not be as valid and lead to.
Poor decision makingbecause of the validity.
Yeah.
Well, I feel that , with technology,with access to certain systems and

(50:36):
resources, I, I feel the analyst getspigeonholed in a way, and then they
have a niche aspect of the mm-hmm.
The process.
And then they don't have a general,a good general understanding of
everything else beyond the data.
So it's really difficult for them.

(50:56):
That's right.
To come up with suggestions andrecommendations when they're only able
to evaluate maybe data or , they're justdealing with such a small sliver Yeah.
Of the pie that it,that's a real struggle.
Yeah, absolutely.
More and more people now are focusingon open source research and that

(51:18):
the you don't want your analystpigeonholed, as you rightly say,
is to be open source researcher.
Go and see what you can find out there.
Come back with it in anice succinct report.
Because you've got to merge that,as I say, with your, with, with your
other analysis, with your, your humananalysis as well whether that be
additional information that's uniquelygathered through whatever mechanism

(51:40):
you have for collecting or whatever.
But that I, you're right, thereis a danger that, that, that
osint becomes the, the king.
And, and we all knowabout how easy that is.
And, and again, back tomy point about evaluation.
How do you properly evaluatethat dearth of information that's
readily available out there?
Open source.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and I think this.

(52:00):
To counter this, this is, this goes backto the importance of what you talked
about before about ensuring managersand executives understand analysis
because analysts have to be able to.
Reach a long ways beyond data sothey can get that understanding.

(52:23):
So they have to be part of meetings,they have to be part of discussions.
They have to get access to reports,they have to be able to ask questions
and, , and be able to apply whatthey're seeing from the data to other
aspects of the investigation or project.
That's right.
Because again, the, the, the dangeris the bias comes from open source.

(52:47):
Mm-hmm.
Even if it's subconsciously.
So yes, they have to use all those,they have to come with that u unique
analytical thought processes, testingthemselves, and not become over reliant
on what they see in front of them.
And it is difficult because as you write,you say people want things quickly.
And you'll even have you havepeople come and say, oh, this, I
found this on, I found this when Iwas doing some internal research.

(53:10):
So the capability and ability for peoplewho are non analysts to go and try and
access information and come with anidea is there, that wasn't there before.
So again, you're absolutely rightthat those, those, all those different
nuances that are unique to the analystknowledge through the meetings,
through the debriefings, through theupdates from speaking to people there,

(53:30):
from understanding what the need is.
Again, and this is why thefirst, the first stage of that
intelligence cycle is so importantis understanding what the need is.
That we almost have a terms ofreference now so that people
aren't preconceived about what theyexpect to get from the analyst.
Mm-hmm.
Which can be a challenge this is whatwe are gonna look to do and this is what
we're gonna, how we're gonna deliver it.

(53:51):
But yes, giving them that unique autonomyto be able to do their own analytical.
Aspects and incorporating that with,with tech generated information and
process data is fine, but it stillhas to remain that uniqueness with
the analyst making the final judgmentand the final decision making around
their conclusions and recommendations.
Yeah.

(54:11):
Well, let's move on to IALEIAthen, as mentioned in your
intro, you are , currently vicepresident, you're fiat instructor.
You were awarded thePresident's Award in 2023.
You were the chapter directorof the international Board from.
20 19 to 2023.

(54:32):
I think that's actuallywhere we first crossed paths
.As I was developing the 40th anniversary series for IALEIA.
I think that's where youand I first crossed paths.
Yeah.
And so in Dallas.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so you obviously have a long historythere, so I just did wanted to first

(54:53):
thank you for all that you have donefor the association and just give you
a time to reflect on, the associationand what you're able to accomplish.
Yeah.
Well, as IALEIA is, has, hasbeen around over 40 years now.
Mm-hmm.
As an association for analysts and, andit, it, it stands for all the principles
really, that we've, we've mentionedthroughout this, this session, Jason.

(55:16):
Mm-hmm.
Where we're talking about advocacytraining professionalism within, within
the analytical environment for thosepeople working in it, striving for
it to be continually recognized as aspecialism that it is the importance
that it has, the role it has to play.
And also providing that, that umbrella,if you like, for those people analysts

(55:38):
all over the world who some in bigdepartments, some in smaller departments,
so, so they don't feel isolated.
And you would've experienced multipletimes our annual training event.
Mm-hmm.
And the, and the energy within that,when you get analysts from all over
the world coming together for that weekit's, it's really quite inspiring and
sharing their stories and experiences.

(56:00):
Which allows them to realizethat they're not alone.
They do have the same challenges,they do have the same aspects.
So a very invigorating week.
But the, but the association hasalways set, its its ethical and
professional standards, very highly.
It's given a a roadmap for, for analysts afocal point to be part of an association.

(56:20):
Those foundational training coursesthat you alluded to earlier.
Yeah.
Very important piece of, what Ilea does.
And then also our our internationalcertification program as well,
which is, which is a reallyimportant aspect of what we do.
And there's been more and moreutilized throughout sort of, sort,
protecting internationally now as well.

(56:41):
Really important for analysts injurisdictions where maybe the whole
use of analysts in law enforcementis a, a newer concept and they may
be looking to use the work thatthey do supporting investigations by
actually actually testifying in court.
Well, if you are certified by IALEIAthat question may well come around
credibility of your evidence giving.

(57:03):
What better way to do it to thanto say that you are internationally
recognized and certified by theInternational Association of Law
Enforcement Intelligence analysts.
So we provide that for our members.
As our membership isnow globally over 4,000.
Tremendous people over the yearsthat I've both met and worked with.
I can't speak highlyabout them all volunteers.

(57:26):
All professionals in the profession.
And I think that is where our, ourtraining really comes to the fore
because whilst all the people that areinstructors are tremendous instructors
in their own right, they're also beingthere, done it and have the experience
of practically doing the work too.
And I think that is really what.
Sets our training apart maybe thanthan some others offered out there.

(57:50):
So a great organization to be part of.
A lot of work in the background supportedby a lot of other aspects, and we, we
always thank you for your, your inputand interest, Jason through leap.
Oh, thank you.
It's no, it's important to us and we'realways striving to do things better.
We've got a few things coming up inthe, in the future that we're looking
forward to on, under this board termup to 2027, including a a membership, a

(58:14):
survey where we really want to get intowhat the analysts on the ground one,
because we're here to serve our members.
Association is a member drivenorganization and we want to make
sure as a, an international boardthat we can do all that we can to
cater for the needs of the analysts.
'cause as we said, it's achanging environment out there.
Yeah, we're broadening our scope as well.

(58:35):
'cause there are a lot of othersectors now that are involved in
the enforcement and the securityaspects of what we do analytically,
particularly with the emergence orcontinued emergence of technology.
So we recognize that and we'relooking to diversify and broaden
our offerings going forward.
Both from a training perspectiveand also deliverable to our members.
So that training survey, I thinkwe're scheduling to try and get

(58:58):
that out early part of 2026 in timethat we can get it back for before
we have our annual training eventnext year in Orlando, Florida.
So we're very keen that we get thatfeedback, so that will help drive,
steer, and shape and reshape ourstrategic plan as we look to take
IALEIA forward into its next 40 years.

(59:18):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And speaking of the conference there, orthere is a call for presenters going on
at the moment, so if you are interestedin presenting at the conference in
Orlando, I I think that you have untilNovember 21st to submit your proposal.
That's right.
Yeah.
You can submit your proposal inobviously our conference success, we

(59:42):
have partnership of course with LEIU.
And so that we were looking for, againthe wide ranging and diverse aspects of
our speakers to make it a really, reallyexciting and thought provoking week.
As, as you know we nevercall it a conference.
We always call it a training event.
There's a reason for that because wewant people to go away from that with

(01:00:04):
something that they can practicallytake back to their environments and
apply, stimulate their thoughts,stimulate the motivation, and give
themselves some practical aspects.
And again, we'll be offering thecertificate tracks through the different
components within the, the training week.
We're delighted to, revisit Orlando.
We had a very successful.
Conference there, I think probablyabout five or six years ago now.

(01:00:26):
Mm-hmm.
Exact date.
Tremendous venue soup.
It's set up perfectly for, for whatwe do for all our breakout sessions
and, and training components thatwe'll have and we're confident,
again, we'll have a an absolutewealth of submissions for speakers.
The challenge becomes how do you pickwhat you do and what you don't do,

(01:00:47):
because it's a, but both boards confirm.
We look at that and we look to makesure that we, we give a bigger spread
and appeal to all, aspects of, of,of the analytical trade graph, not
just for those experienced analysts.
For those brand new to it as well.
So a good mixture of, everything we standfor and really looking forward to it.
Yeah.
And April in Orlando, that's a good timeto be there before it gets too hot and

(01:01:10):
not dealing with the hurricane season.
So that's a good time.
Yes, yes.
, The
last time we were there, it,it's tremendously successful.
So we're hoping for repeat.
All right, Phil.
All right.
Let's talk about advice.
What, advice do youhave for our listeners?
Maybe that those that are tryingto get in the field, maybe new
analysts, experienced analysts, whatadvice do you have for our folks?
Okay.

(01:01:31):
Well, as I say open-mindedness and,technological awareness is really
important in this day and age.
But I would say if you're coming newinto the, into it and we recognize
there are a lot of people coming newinto it, and through IALEIA, we do try
and sort of embrace those, those peoplewho are either looking to, to come into
the field or are, are relatively new.
And we also recognize thatsometimes this isn't always

(01:01:53):
the first stop on their career path.
So we recognize that people comeinto the analytical world at, at
different stages of their work life.
So that was one of the foundations forforming the Emerging Professionals Group.
It isn't designed foryoung people necessarily.
It's designed for people who arenew within the first five years
of, of, of working in analysis.

(01:02:15):
So encapsulates all,all age groups as well.
So for anybody out there who's thinkingabout it or is coming into the analytical
world, maybe later on in life, butgetting involved with the emerging
professional group, they're really good.
But if I was to say over the time,the constants that I would would
say are benchmarks for analystscoming into the field, you need

(01:02:35):
to stay organized and disciplined.
And that comes back to again,what we were talking about.
The massive of data out there meansyou've really got to be organized.
You've gotta have a structured toyour working day, week, month, year,
almost, because of just the masses.
Of data.
And so you have to be organized, andthen you also have to be disciplined too.
You have to stick to your principles too.

(01:02:56):
As far as when you come to your insights,your recommendations things like that.
Do not be swayed or try notto be swayed by opinions.
Very difficult.
You have to be a bit brave Ifyou're an analyst, sometimes,
you know senior individuals willhave their own ideas of what the
product should say, do or look like.
And you have to stick to yourguns and make sure that your
findings are data driven.

(01:03:18):
May not always be.
And as an analyst, people are alwayssurprised about what they find themselves.
So you gotta have that discipline.
You've gotta be a veryeffective communicator.
Today, again, particularly in thetechnological era we're in, remember
that the the people that you areproducing for may not be as technically
astute as you, particularly and thatisn't as on them specialists for

(01:03:40):
specialists, but don't get too caughtup with not using layman's terms.
Keep it, keep it relatively simpleunderstanding, particularly when
it comes to technical and maintainthat critical thinking component.
Really important.
As I say, we really push the factthat thinking is the real driver
between good analysis, the criticalthinking, the creative thinking,
all band together by logic.

(01:04:01):
It's really important.
And of course, with thechanging world that we're in,
the continuous learning piece.
So crucial to what you need to do.
So I would say make sure you keepfocused on the big picture too.
Whatever you're working on, makesure you realize how it fits into
the bigger, the bigger picture.
And as I said, I would take timeas well to look at all the aspects
that lead to analysis, all thosepieces within the intelligence cycle.

(01:04:24):
Take time to go and understand,learn in depth, how those mechanics
work for whatever jurisdictionor organization you work in.
Because by understanding the othercogs in the wheel, you all understand
how to produce better your analysis.
That's what
I'd say.
Nice.
Very good.
All right, so, so as you mentioned, you'relooking to retire soon, maybe this spring.

(01:04:45):
Do you have any postwork retirement plans?
I have a few
things.
Have a few things in the fireother than firmed up yet.
I'm looking forward to, beingable to dedicate a little bit
more time to the ILE piece.
Mm-hmm.
Spend my mentoring role, reallylittle bit of consultancy here
and there where needed, if needed.

(01:05:06):
And really just spend the remainingtime I get before I actually finish
trying to, and I've said it to the, tothe people around me who I work with.
Utilize me as much as youwant between now and then.
I'm, I'm very keen to try andgive back as much as I can to the
profession that has been really sogood to me over, as I say, 40 years.

(01:05:27):
I've thoroughly enjoyed most of it.
No, I thoroughly enjoyed it.
I've been very fortunate.
I've had some tremendous experience.
I've, I feel very privilegedto have worked in the
environments I've worked with.
I mean awe of the peoplethat I've worked with.
And to see the fruits of their, theirbelief and taking it onto the next level,
beyond me and the next generation is whereI get my levels of satisfaction from.

(01:05:51):
So I'm still gonna be aroundthe community for sure.
I am certainly not putting myfeet up and disappearing off.
I have had a few phone calls already.
But, but as, again, I, I will certainly,obviously I'm scheduled to remain on
the lea board as vice president till20 2027 in this, this particular term.
So I'll continue my work in capacitythere, and, and if anybody's out

(01:06:14):
there who wants to reach out to mefor any advice I, I'm here to help.
And that's really where I getmy motivation from these days.
It's about giving back and trying to, ifI can help, I will anybody regardless of
where they are, what level they're at,I'm, I'm always, always open to chat.
I, I'm a lifetime enthusiast for this,as you may have already gathered.
And, my appetite for it remains, but it'stime I need to start to dial back a bit.

(01:06:38):
I'm not getting any younger.
Well definitely appreciate yourcontributions and perspective.
I do have a task for you though that youdon't have to wait till retirement on.
, I need your help to get thepresident David McLaughlin on
my show 'cause he has been Okay.
Very slippery in and in my attemptsto get him on this program.

(01:07:03):
Well what I will say about Davidis he is tr he's tremendously busy.
He has been involved in anunbelievable amount of work
since, since he became president.
I'm sure that that'll come and I thinkhe would be excellent on it and it would
be in, and he would look forward to it.
I guess you are in line.
And it's a fairly long line,Jason, but I will do what I
can to move you up the line.

(01:07:25):
How's that?
All right.
All
right, appreciate you.
All right.
And for the, for the listeners we'llput links to additional information on
all the topics that we talked about.
A lot of the IALEIAinformation we'll put on there.
We will put a way to contact Phil,should you have questions for him.
Alright, Phil, our last segmentto the show is Words to the World.

(01:07:48):
And this is where you canpromote any idea that you wish.
What are your words to the world?
My words to the world,
thou they, they would be toevery analyst out there stays
true and strong to your beliefs.
Do not waiver in the face of adversity.
Do not be, overall by the prospectsof an increasingly challenging

(01:08:09):
world greet those challenges headon with vigor and analytical rigor.
And the world needs you asmuch as you need the world.
So stay doing what you're doing, move withthe times, develop the new requirements,
and keep doing what you're doing.
Because I would suggest that analystsgoing forward now have never ever

(01:08:31):
been needed more than they needed.
Right now.
Very good.
Well, I leave every guest with,you've given me just enough to
talk bad about you later, but I doappreciate you being on the show, Phil.
Thank you so much and you be safe
again.
Thank you, Jason, for your time and thankyou for your continued interest in all
that we try and do in our profession.

(01:08:51):
It really is appreciated.
Thank
you for making it to the end of anotherepisode of Analyst Talk with Jason Elder.
You can show your support by sharingthis and other episodes found
on our website@www.podcasts.com.
If you have a topic you would likeus to cover or have a suggestion for
our next guest, please send us anemail at elliot podcasts@gmail.com.

(01:09:12):
Till next time, analysts, keep talking.

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Analyst Talk - Phil Powell - The Fundamentals Analyst

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Analyst Talk - Phil Powell - The Fundamentals Analyst